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JG1992
12-29-2012, 01:57 PM
I have qeustion about 4.12.
Patch 4.10.1 was compatibile with up.3.rc4.
Now all servers many servers support 4.11.1 but not up.3.rc4 :(
Will be 4.12 compatibile with up.3.rc4 ?
Thank you very much for your answer.

IceFire
12-29-2012, 02:32 PM
I have qeustion about 4.12.
Patch 4.10.1 was compatibile with up.3.rc4.
Now all servers many servers support 4.11.1 but not up.3.rc4 :(
Will be 4.12 compatibile with up.3.rc4 ?
Thank you very much for your answer.

So basically the UP guys would have to recompile their mod packs on top of each new official release. I don't know much about what UP is doing but if UP3 RC4 was compatible with 4.10.1 that's where it ends. They would need new versions to be compatible with the new content in 4.11.1 and then with the new content in 4.12. It's not going to magically become compatible. They would have to release a new version...

ElAurens
12-29-2012, 05:55 PM
The UP guys made a decision to go their own way as they thought they had a better idea.

Now they are left standing alone in the wilderness.


You make your choice and run with it.

RPS69
12-29-2012, 05:55 PM
You better assume that UP is dead. They are not posting anything, even if they are willing to keep it alive, they don't look to be doing anything on it, for a long time now.

Better switch to HSFX.

CWMV
12-30-2012, 04:30 PM
Long time UP fan here but I think Zuti Mds made it to inflexible.
"Hey does this mod work?!"
"No, incompatible with MDS"
Very common exchange in the recent past.
DBW won't be dependant on UP anymore, so for offline its the way to go. 1.8 is being worked on as we speak.
Online HSFX, though its not my favorite.

Bearcat
01-02-2013, 04:24 AM
Long time UP fan here but I think Zuti Mds made it to inflexible.
"Hey does this mod work?!"
"No, incompatible with MDS"
Very common exchange in the recent past.
DBW won't be dependant on UP anymore, so for offline its the way to go. 1.8 is being worked on as we speak.
Online HSFX, though its not my favorite.

I have no idea what Zuti is doing or where he is but it would be great if whatever the issues were between him and TD could be resolved.. The MDS s a great piece of kit... I remember posts in ORR about something just like it back in the early days.. when we only dreamed about what we now have as stock in IL2.

CWMV
01-02-2013, 04:47 AM
Would be nice wouldn't it?
RRR was a really cool feature in multiplayer.
Although Ive heard from more than one place that Zuti can be hard to get along with. Wont say more than that as its conjecture and Ive never met the man.

IceFire
01-02-2013, 10:18 PM
I get the sense that about half of the reason we don't have cool stuff in a mainstream mod or in the stock product (4.XX, etc.) is that people refuse to get along in a civil manner. Not pointing fingers or being specific... I don't even know half the stories but whenever I talk to someone about sharing something or collaborating on something, I get the impression that their back is up due to some past transgression. Again I have no idea what the stories are and I really don't need to know. It's just a shame.

It's a shame UP went off on their own... they had some interesting stuff. HSFX has some interesting stuff. I'd like to see a little more collaboration between all of these groups... particularly HSFX because some (a lot?) people fly stock servers with the HSFX visual/audio goodies but are faced with compatibility issues in some very random and odd places that needn't be.

ElAurens
01-02-2013, 10:44 PM
Too many oversized egos getting in the way IceFire.

That's all it comes down to.

Sad but true.

FC99
01-03-2013, 02:21 PM
I get the sense that about half of the reason we don't have cool stuff in a mainstream mod or in the stock product (4.XX, etc.) is that people refuse to get along in a civil manner.
One of the main "raisons d'être" of mods is freedom in development. With this freedom you get some good and bad things. It is good that more people is involved more things can be done and very often some obscure but still interesting things are done. This works fine as long as mods are isolated one from another but as soon as more complex things are developed you can't avoid clash between the mods.

When that happens cooperation is necessary and that goes against "freedom" which is probably most attractive thing with modding. Suddenly, modder can't do whatever he wants and many are not willing to accept this. Add to this that modded game is ever changing and that require many mods to evolve too, which in turn force modders to commit to upgrade their mods to the latest popular pack. In the end what started as fun becomes almost like work. Instead of working on cool features one has to spend time on making his mods compatible with something that will be obsolete in couple of weeks.

For that reason it is inevitable that only long term successful projects are those where there is a strong core of people which share common interest and vision.

_RAAF_Firestorm
01-03-2013, 09:22 PM
Brilliantly insightful post FC99.

ElAurens
01-03-2013, 10:54 PM
Indeed.

Thank you sir.

Bearcat
02-14-2013, 08:29 AM
One of the main "raisons d'être" of mods is freedom in development. With this freedom you get some good and bad things. It is good that more people is involved more things can be done and very often some obscure but still interesting things are done. This works fine as long as mods are isolated one from another but as soon as more complex things are developed you can't avoid clash between the mods.

When that happens cooperation is necessary and that goes against "freedom" which is probably most attractive thing with modding. Suddenly, modder can't do whatever he wants and many are not willing to accept this. Add to this that modded game is ever changing and that require many mods to evolve too, which in turn force modders to commit to upgrade their mods to the latest popular pack. In the end what started as fun becomes almost like work. Instead of working on cool features one has to spend time on making his mods compatible with something that will be obsolete in couple of weeks.

For that reason it is inevitable that only long term successful projects are those where there is a strong core of people which share common interest and vision.

Well in light of the time between patches..... (I'm just saying....;))

Treetop64
02-14-2013, 08:48 AM
Will be 4.12 compatibile with up.3.rc4 ?


More appropriately, will UP 3.rc4 be compatible with 4.12.

UP couldn't be bothered with being compatible with 4.11. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to be compatible with the next version, if I were you...

|ZUTI|
03-01-2013, 05:23 PM
Hello friends.

It has been brought to my attention that there are still irregularities in regards of "my" work and IL2. So, let me set them straight so that you can quote me on it for future reference :)

Bearcat: I can assure you that I have ZERO quarrels with DT. If anything, I have the utmost respect for the majority of their team. Especially the ones that are in it only to make IL2 better. And be very sure that from those guys you hear the least. The only thing that did not sit good with me is the famous fallout that Caspar and I had. Misunderstanding or not, it just was not the case. What this team does is very good in general, but IN MY OPINION they made ONE serious mistake. That mistake is that as soon as they signed the contract with 1C about future development, they should, in MY opinion instantly rehash/re-encrypt the SFS files and separate their official IL2 completely from the mod community. By doing that they would have ZERO conflicts in the future and even the end-users would profit. They could use the official release or use the mod release. But as it is, you still have people using some mods and then complain that they have this or that problem. I can only applaud the decision to move some of the code to C libraries. Though, for the sake of maintenance in MY opinion the code should stay in java in case some crucial members change. And they have the neat/clean source anyhow. That is it. I have no resentments for them. None. We simply had different ideas. For me it was important to also work with UP team as they were the original team that enabled me to work at all on my favourite simulation but that was not wanted by some in DT. Period. I only wish them best of luck for the future and also that, at some point in the future, they would do some updates on the GFX engine, since the code is at their disposal and perhaps try to move the code to higher JVM. Though, this second part is an enormous undertaking and probably not worth the effort and time. Oh, and to rewrite the ships AI to something that deserves the title AI. Ships deserve much better. It is very hard to do that from reverse-engineering the source. Ships are the focus IMHO.

CWMV: Your hearsay (although such statements usually only have one purpose :D) is true. I am NOT the easiest guy to get along to. You want to know why? Because I have ZERO problems with stating my opinion ZERO problems at saying that I don't like something and ZERO problems to say NO to people. Back in the day it was common practice for people to DEMANDING things from me. Not requesting, demanding. PMs and emails were full of such crap. Those same people were then enormously offended and took it personally when I said NO. Even if we were making business that would not fly in such manner (and in business rules are much much different). The catch is that this was my free time, this was my hobby, this was my joy and in this I OWED NOBODY NOTHING. Do you understand that? As it was also stated here (truthfully) in the end all you could hear was this: "Does this mod work? Nope, not compatible with MDS". And it was very true. Why? Because for MDS, I HAD to alter a lot of VITAL/CORE classes of IL2. Classes that the game depends on. So, the previous statement was true. It was not compatible. How much do you know about development? I ask because I would really like to know how to make such a wast modification set flexible? The devil is in the details you see. Almost none of the demander's (modders and users) whose work was not compatible DEMANDED me to include it in MDS repertuar. Mhm. And I was, for the most part, very forthcoming and helpful and did that. So, what was next step? The next step was: "MDS fucked this up, fucked that up" etc. And you know what the funniest part is? That it was NOT THE MDS FAULT. In most cases the problems that people reported I tracked back to entirely other mods code that I gracefully integrated into my work. Furthermore when new versions of the official IL2 was released, I was responsible to port it along. Crazy world, isn't it. I was doing most of the work and then I had to listen what a piece of shit MDS was because I included a mod that I did not know inside-out and that was flawed (modders of those mods know it). At some point, I just said ENOUGH. And then people started to say that I am horrible to work with, unable to get along to etc. I guess I am, but I'll be damned if I'll be anyone's bitch :> Otherwise MDS is still very much alive and kicking, it has evolved into something more that it was in version 1.2 back in the 2010/2011. And it is working flawlessly with excellent 4.11.1 IL2 (thanks again DT for nice job there) and it will for sure work with 4.12, when it is released. The CATCH is that now it is only used by a small number of people that I have grown to know and call my friends (even if they are from far away) and that actually do constructive suggestions and reports. Too often I have read here in the past from the same people that are still here and are still very opinuated ,that MDS does not work or that it broke this or that but these same people do not have ANY idea of how to even set MDS up. Nor to use any of the features that it offers. Most of the time it was just a bandwagon type of hearsay. "I heard this". "I heard that". There were NO bug reports, no missions to evaluate, nothing. Members that "have the power" over other for reasons unknown to me (probably the length of their membership and number of posts they made, even if those posts were plain crap). But apparently that counts and people blindly believe/follow them. After all, they did hear that from that particular powerful member :D Talk about ego trip maniacs and arrogance addicts. Me me me me, listen to me. I know what me is saying. It is true me says. Sad, but this can actually be generalised to the entire world :D Politicians of the IL2, if you will, hehe. So, MDS is still very much in use with a definite vision, I have just moved it from the public eye. Because I AM THAT EGOISTIC. That is that. Why deal wit all the negativity found in this IL2 world. There are much more important things to do than deal with that (funny that I am saying that after this long response, doh :)).

Feel free to quote me on the above in any future references about the myth about me, MDS and DT.
Enjoy your IL2 guys. ATM it is all you have (after the CloD fiasco).
Take care!

T}{OR
03-02-2013, 10:20 AM
...they should, in MY opinion instantly rehash/re-encrypt the SFS files and separate their official IL2 completely from the mod community ...

You are not the only one voicing that opinion, either.

Hans Burger
03-02-2013, 12:39 PM
...they should, in MY opinion instantly rehash/re-encrypt the SFS files and separate their official IL2 completely from the mod community ...

+1
Good idea to have a clear situation: modded versions on one side and DT version on the other side without interference.

Asheshouse
03-02-2013, 10:22 PM
+1
Good idea to have a clear situation: modded versions on one side and DT version on the other side without interference.

It is already a clear situation without introducing such a divisive change. No one forces you to install mods. Mods do not interfere with the work of DT. There is nothing to gain from such a move other than creating a split in the community, which is in nobody's interest.

Ashe

Hans Burger
03-03-2013, 08:40 AM
I am not so sure...
At this time, there are several distribs and results generate compatibilty problems: DT distrib, HSFX distrib, UP, SAS, .... for the well known.
It is difficult for online game moreover if you take in account that there are several ways to use it: dog, coop, historical or not, full or not full real.
If community means that everyone use IL2, it is OK but, after that, it is difficult to find a common platform and objective.

If you take, for example, french groups, some of them are sticked to 4.09 and continue to mod development. As I have seen : variable weather, g effect, triggers, AI taxiing, cloud visibility, and so on have been implemented on this version since a long time.
So, it is the sense of my last post: in front of that it is (perhaps) necessary to clarify the situation and my support to Zuti proposal.

Best regards.

Black_Sage29
03-06-2013, 04:51 AM
I really have no idea what MDS is all about..i just got back into IL2 after like 2 years or so. I know it had something to do with moving frontlines and being able to rearm and repair

I used to fly patch 4.08 and 4.09


What I don't understand is, Zuti why not just include MDS in the official TD patches???? . Work with TD!

...they should, in MY opinion instantly rehash/re-encrypt the SFS files and separate their official IL2 completely from the mod community ...


THIS!! Mods are killing this game fast.



For one..HSFX is not a walk in the park to install for the layman..this will turn most new simmers off right from the start. Also..you can believe what you want but I am a dedicated P-40, P-51 and P-47 flyer. The flight models for those planes have been changed in HSFX and the overheating model is changed...this makes it unbalanced because players flying the stock version of IL2 have different flight models and overheating models from HSFX flyers

Don't know much about UP.

I don't even use mods anymore, i just stick to TD's patches because it's just that much simpler to roll with clean, simple, stock version of game. Everyone has the same thing and it's simple for new players to get into the game


Just come together....do it for the game, because this game is dying fast. The community is so split up I can't even join stock server games anymore even with stock 4.11.1 ...which pretty much forced me to uninstall the game

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
03-06-2013, 11:32 AM
If it was 3 or 4 years ago, I'd go with the new encryption idea, but nowadays, times have changed, I think. I don't know, what else is there regarding small mod groups (like those french I never heard of), but just taking the mainstream ones, I see, with UP slowly fading away, HSFX still keeping up very well on base of actual stock version, and then the stock game itself, kept alive by us. There is no more such big wars and flaming around and I feel, the situation is better than at any point in the last years, since modding started.

I don't see any reason (and the whole team doesn't as well) to do a new encryption. It would sepearate the community - nobody wants that - and after all, it would be broken soon anyway. Nothing worth the effort.

Hans Burger
03-06-2013, 06:14 PM
OK, it is another point of view. I don't share it, but it is not so important, of course.
About french groups, as I know, there are active on 4.09 modding activities on several domains: new 3D projects, but also in reprogramming core class or dll.
I am probably not wrong, but I think that the SFS packer used by UP has been done by one guy of these groups.

IceFire
03-06-2013, 11:46 PM
Hello friends.

It has been brought to my attention that there are still irregularities in regards of "my" work and IL2. So, let me set them straight so that you can quote me on it for future reference :)

.......

Feel free to quote me on the above in any future references about the myth about me, MDS and DT.
Enjoy your IL2 guys. ATM it is all you have (after the CloD fiasco).
Take care!

Whatever went on before, I think it's worth saying that your work on the Moving Dogfight Server is VERY much appreciated. I'm glad you were able to collaborate with Team Daidalos to bring it to the stock game. Definitely a great thing! Thank you again!

Bearcat
03-07-2013, 04:24 AM
Zuti thanks so much for the clarification it is very much appreciated and very good to know. I always thought that TD was separate from the mods... that it was just that HSFX was compatible with the stock sim hence TD.. am I mistaken there? I still think that the MDS is one of the single most important things to come out of the whole mod situation and the fact that it is still in the stock sim should be more widely known even if some of it's features (RRR for one .. from what I have read) do not fully function.. From where I sit it wouldn't matter to me who you worked with as long as the MDS is in the stock sim and whatever issues remain can be worked out at some point.

Hans ... from my understanding some of that stuff you mentioned and more is planned for 4.12. That is one reason why for me.. it is important to keep a mod pack that is compatible with the stock sim because as some of these things that started out as mods are incorporated into the stock sim over time the conflicts become fewer and the mod packs become more streamlined. I think that adding 6DoF and the MDS to 4.10 was a huge step toward that goal as those two mods (among some others that have been also added) are both very useful to any incarnation of the sim...

BS29... I am surprised that you had difficulty with HSFX.. I have never had a problem with the install ... never. As for the stock FMs I don't think they are changed in HSFX .. only the mod planes.. the D-25,30 and 20NT in the P-51s and the other modded planes. From my understanding the FMs of the stock aircraft were not touched at all. As for the overheat model .. Isn't that the stock overheat model that came with 4.11? That has nothing to do with mods. From what I have recently come to understand the MDS is still in the stock version of the sim. I too thought it was removed after 4.10 due to some issue with Zuti and TD but this thread right here @ 1C (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=38176) and Zuti's post above clears that up once and for all.

Caspar.. that French group is the crew from Check6 I believe.. and those guys have been a round a long long time actually..


I don't think mods are killing the sim at all.. I think that the fact that there is a mod pack that is compatible with the stock version of the sim is fantastic and I hope that cooperation never changes.

Hans Burger
03-07-2013, 06:30 AM
Caspar.. that French group is the crew from Check6 I believe.. and those guys have been a round a long long time actually..

I think you are wrong. A mod pack has been built by Check 6, few years ago, based on 4.09. Since this date, no development occured. As I know, 4.09 mod packs continue to be developped by two distinct groups: Histomod and II/JG51.

|ZUTI|
03-07-2013, 11:40 AM
Bearcat: HSFX is compatible that fast with new releases because a lot of DT team were closely connected to it. How it is now, I have no idea but as things are I think it can be safe to say that situation is the same. IMHO only. Situation with me comming from another pack group was, well, problematic. Since I did not want to cut my ties with them things were bound to go south in the end. Back then there was only one "community" :)

Black_Sage29: I did give it a try. Not worth the trouble in the end.

IceFire: thank you sir.

Hans B. said it best: those interested soely in the IL2 stick with their version and mod it for their own use. And we are still enjoying it very much :) If only guys at DT would also focus a bit on updating few things in the graphics engine and gave proper AI to water and ground vehicles. Then it would be pure awesomness.

Asheshouse
03-07-2013, 01:05 PM
If only guys at DT would ......... give proper AI to water and ground vehicles. Then it would be pure awesomness.

A selective quote, but I strongly agree.

semor
03-07-2013, 03:47 PM
THIS!!Mods are killing this game fast.




This is simply not true!!
I can´t belive it,we live in the year 2013...:rolleyes:
Post´s like this are really dividing the rest of the IL-2 comunity

Without the work of the Modders/mod groups AND the great work of TD,IL-2 would be be dead for a long,long time. This is a fact! I can not speak for the onliners,b´cause like many others,I fly offline.

"HSFX is not a walk in the park to install for the layman" ...Well,I don´t want to sound rude,but please don´t talk such BS. If you can´t handle an easy "point and click" exe installer...well that´s your problem.The most other users can do it. HSFX&DBW&UP...etc. are simple installs which gives a lot of great and usefull content to the users who wants it.There is a great comunity out there that gives a "every day" support for those packages.like TD for the official Paches here on the "yellow forum"

Belive me,most of the new Simmers are starting with mods,I can see it every day on SAS and other forums.

You´re mentioned right, this game is dying fast.So,lets hold together and don´t creating a split with such anti mod tirade.

Guys,I don´t want to offended anyone,but when I read lines like " Mods are killing the Game fast...it´s like a stitch in my heart. Let´s enjoy IL-2.With or without mods. ;)

Peace to all.
Semor

T}{OR
03-09-2013, 12:37 PM
If it was 3 or 4 years ago, I'd go with the new encryption idea, but nowadays, times have changed, I think. I don't know, what else is there regarding small mod groups (like those french I never heard of), but just taking the mainstream ones, I see, with UP slowly fading away, HSFX still keeping up very well on base of actual stock version, and then the stock game itself, kept alive by us. There is no more such big wars and flaming around and I feel, the situation is better than at any point in the last years, since modding started.

I don't see any reason (and the whole team doesn't as well) to do a new encryption. It would sepearate the community - nobody wants that - and after all, it would be broken soon anyway. Nothing worth the effort.

Blocking all mods out wouldn't be a good idea, I agree. In particular the sound related ones. However, having something that can regulate what is allowed on the server (other than venerable CRT2), so that servers can either allow mods or lock everything non stock out - would be a tremendous help for online community IMO.

Bearcat
03-09-2013, 08:53 PM
Blocking all mods out wouldn't be a good idea, I agree. In particular the sound related ones. However, having something that can regulate what is allowed on the server (other than venerable CRT2), so that servers can either allow mods or lock everything non stock out - would be a tremendous help for online community IMO.

I agree .. I think at this point it would do more harm than good.

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
03-10-2013, 09:54 AM
Blocking all mods out wouldn't be a good idea, I agree. In particular the sound related ones. However, having something that can regulate what is allowed on the server (other than venerable CRT2), so that servers can either allow mods or lock everything non stock out - would be a tremendous help for online community IMO.

Eh... isn't that what CRT is for? It works at least for me. If I don't have the same version, I simply can't join.

BTW: 4.12 will support custom sounds, so that shouldn't be any problem anymore.

Bearcat
03-12-2013, 02:26 AM
That's good to know.. Are the triggers in 4.12 as well?

IceFire
03-12-2013, 03:06 AM
Eh... isn't that what CRT is for? It works at least for me. If I don't have the same version, I simply can't join.

BTW: 4.12 will support custom sounds, so that shouldn't be any problem anymore.

We have had some cases on Battlefields1 back a year or more ago where CRT=2 was a little too aggressive. Different OS versions can sometimes trigger it. It's set to CRT=1 and we have mixed stock and HSFX players now so CRT=2 is out of the question... but it was a problem at one point.

EDIT: Memory is probably a bit off here... it was probably 3-4 years ago.

karnalooch
04-18-2013, 09:36 PM
@ EJGr.Ost_Caspar I also have the same question as Beercat:
What about triggers in 4.12?? Triggers & scripts in CLOD is great tools, so maybe you should add this functionality to FMB :) It will be great improvement for game and awesome gift for us - Sturmovik community :D

~S~

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
04-18-2013, 10:05 PM
Triggers as we planed it, were not possible due to the ways some other feature was programmed. We are working on a workaround. But its not for 4.12.

Ala13_Kokakolo
04-20-2013, 08:06 PM
Triggers as we planed it, were not possible due to the ways some other feature was programmed. We are working on a workaround. But its not for 4.12.

This is music to my ears. Thank you TD.

Tuphlandng
04-21-2013, 04:59 AM
Hello Zuti
I hope your still watching this thread.
I remember asking Bearcat about getting Re Arm and Re fuel in IL 2. I remember Him telling Me that was a Mod and there fore Posting this request was against the rules in the Ubisoft forums. Well Seems there has been a change in the rules and discussion mods is all right now.
I Myself have a great appreciation and respect for anyone that takes the time to add to IL2 Most of all what You did with the MDS v 1.2 mod. In UP 2.0 I was able to take the MDS mod and place it in my HSFX folder and it worked Great For those of us that preferred HSFX over UP it was awesome. And it was compatible with the UP 2.0 server software and that is what I hosted.
This opened a new door for creating exciting mission that required the Pilot to land and re arm. The Options, at that time, where endless with this mod. Until the resources management Mod was released. I gotta tell you My head exploded with ideas. With out the Zuti MDS Mod Resource Management would never have existed
After reading your post I understand why you may have wanted to through your hands in the air and give up on IL2. I wouldn’t blame you in the least bit, if that is what Happened,. Just please understand that what you brought to IL 2 with the MDS is one of the best things that ever could have happened to any flight sim period. And of course this is only my opinion.
I myself had no problems with getting any MOD to work as long as I read the instructions. If I didn’t get them right I would ask someone that did .One thing Is I always installed in a Copy of the game Not the original.
It seems all to often few of use seem to really show our appreciation for what The Diadalos Team, The Team that work on Ultra Pack and the HSFX team do for what has to be the longest running combat flight sim ever released. All of you made that possible And I Thank you for all your hard work All your time invested and the BS politics that you had to endure.

A special thanks to you Zuti for sharing your MDS work with us
I’m thanking You here because I don’t know anywhere else to Say Thanks for your awesome work

Tuph