engine oil and radiator damage. Fails too quickly!

[Anders_And]

Yes know I know it used to be the other way around until a few patches back ad that was even worse. But now its the extreme at the other end, when u get a radiator damage you have about one minute maximum two minutes before the engine quits.
I have read plenty of reports of liquid cooled planes that made it cross the channel while leaking glycol or oil although the engine probably would be a write off after landing...

As it is now, you take a hit and no matter what you do the engine quits after the same time. I have tried opening up the water radiator fully, come back on on RPM and reduce to half power in order to nurse the plane back home over the channel. It never work. Same with oil radiator damage.
Another thing, the water and oil temp never seem to slowly increase as would be expected after a damage. The engine just fails and THEN the temp seems to rize.
It seems like the coding is to fail the engine after certain time and not after a certain temperature is reached. And honestly even in real life and engine can run maybe a minute or two even after this critical temperature is reached.in game not so.

Have any of you guys found a way to extend the time from a hit to the time of failure?! I would like to be able to nurse my plane cross the channel at least once online..

[5./JG27.Farber]

THere is absoulutley nothing you can do. Ive tried everything. Rads closed, rads open, full throttle, minium ata and U/pm to stay in flight... Everything!

THe only thing that seemed to work was diving hard at full throttle with the water rad wide open... But how long can you keep that up? 30 seconds?

I was thinking about it the other day, what about turning the engine off and on? Not very realistic though... and the water temp stil climbs with the engine off as the water pumps off.

Radiator = doom. :sad:

[SlipBall]

Sadly yet another example of the repercussion's of the countless whining that the devs faced, and dealt with.:rolleyes:

[LoBiSoMeM]

Sadly yet another example of the repercussion's of the countless whining that the devs faced, and dealt with.:rolleyes:

+1.

People got what asked for. :wink:

[Kodoss]

The only way to hobble home over the channel is height!

You need 4 km altitude, throttle down to idle (to keep it turning), pitch to coarse and glide home.
But this also depends on the damage of the engine.

I don't know where I read it, but one Bf 109 pilot (from JG 5? ) had his engine shot behind enemy lines.
He feathered the prop and thanks to good thermal lift he glided 70 km back over the lines.

[Robo.]

Sadly yet another example of the repercussion's of the countless whining that the devs faced, and dealt with.:rolleyes:

But to be honest, before that you could fly with glylcol leaking from both rads forever. It was a bug and what happened now the devs did go another extreme, I agree with the OP.

Hans-Ekkehard Bob describes as he was hit in the cooling unit over Canterbury, his 109 also overheated pretty much instantly. The standard procedure was feathering the prop and yo could glide cca 10 km per 1km of altitude. He kept switching the engine on, climbing at full power till it overheted and then switched it back off again. That way he made it all the way to France from 4000m (80km distance). Maybe that's the same pilot Kodoss is mentioning.

Feathering the prop is not modeled in this sim, unfortunately. I don't know how about you guys but any instance I read, a water cooled engine with radiator leak = you're going down rather soon.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

this is a rather silly thread based on the fact that there is no way to determine how many and how big the holes are in your cooling system.. And even if you could, there is very little, if any, real world data on how long an engine will run without coolent to compare to to see how well the overheat aspects are simulated

[SlipBall]

But to be honest, before that you could fly with glylcol leaking from both rads forever. It was a bug and what happened now the devs did go another extreme, I agree with the OP.

Hans-Ekkehard Bob describes as he was hit in the cooling unit over Canterbury, his 109 also overheated pretty much instantly. The standard procedure was feathering the prop and yo could glide cca 10 km per 1km of altitude. He kept switching the engine on, climbing at full power till it overheted and then switched it back off again. That way he made it all the way to France from 4000m (80km distance). Maybe that's the same pilot Kodoss is mentioning.

Feathering the prop is not modeled in this sim, unfortunately. I don't know how about you guys but any instance I read, a water cooled engine with radiator leak = you're going down rather soon.


Hi Robo, since the devs were unable to get it right, which then would you prefer to have now...With the release, a radiator leak meant that your battle had ended and there was a new battle just begun, to somehow make it across the channel. Extremely difficult situation, really only enough power to maintain steerage all the while loosing alt. With windshield covered in oil due to a gasket failure you would now be tested to the max, to set her down in a farmers field if you were able to make it that far. 9 out of 10 times I do not make it. Out of the times I do make it across, 9 out of 10 times I crash on landing attempt and die. It is that time when I do make it and can walk away, that I say to myself man what a great sim, oh boy I got lucky am I a good pilot!:)

[Anders_And]

Sadly yet another example of the repercussion's of the countless whining that the devs faced, and dealt with.:rolleyes:

What are you talking about?!!? So if you complain that your car is to slow and you take it to the garage and when it comes back it cant go any slower than 200km/h with your logic you get what you asked for?!?!

Jeeez, you mentality is why the game never got fixed in the first place. Any critique is whining according to your sort...

Grow up

[Anders_And]

Hi Robo, since the devs were unable to get it right, which then would you prefer to have now...With the release, a radiator leak meant that your battle had ended and there was a new battle just begun, to somehow make it across the channel. Extremely difficult situation, really only enough power to maintain steerage all the while loosing alt. With windshield covered in oil due to a gasket failure you would now be tested to the max, to set her down in a farmers field if you were able to make it that far. 9 out of 10 times I do not make it. Out of the times I do make it across, 9 out of 10 times I crash on landing attempt and die. It is that time when I do make it and can walk away, that I say to myself man what a great sim, oh boy I got lucky am I a good pilot!:)

thats exactly the point. Instead of starting a a discussion where its your way or the highway, instead ask yourself why on earth the devs decided to go from one extreme to the other?!

Of course what we had before was worse than now. Now, its equally unrealistic.

[Anders_And]

this is a rather silly thread based on the fact that there is no way to determine how many and how big the holes are in your cooling system.. And even if you could, there is very little, if any, real world data on how long an engine will run without coolent to compare to to see how well the overheat aspects are simulated

Then move on.
You have nothing in this thread to do. You dont like the thread neither do you answer my question for tips nor bring anything useful to the discussion.
Move on

[Anders_And]

+1.

People got what asked for. :wink:

Show me the thread where people asked for radiator damage that fails the engine in 1-2mins!!

[SlipBall]

thats exactly the point. Instead of starting a a discussion where its your way or the highway, instead ask yourself why on earth the devs decided to go from one extreme to the other?!

Of course what we had before was worse than now. Now, its equally unrealistic.


Well at least I can make across with the before, the now, is impossible under most conditions.

[swiss]

Any of you guys experienced a motorblock crack irl?
No?
Let me tell you, you usually have less than three minutes before the engine completely freezes; now that is on car, not a 1000hp ac engine.

Reminder: We are NOT talking about an hi-tech AH64 turbine which can run half an hour without oil.

[Anders_And]

Any of you guys experienced a motorblock crack irl?
No?
Let me tell you, you usually have less than three minutes before the engine completely freezes; now that is on car, not a 1000hp ac engine.

Reminder: We are NOT talking about an hi-tech AH64 turbine which can run half an hour without oil.

yes that is something different.
Here we are talking about "slowly" losing oil and coolant...

[swiss]

yes that is something different.
Here we are talking about "slowly" losing oil and coolant...

Slowly?
Based on what?
The picture you have in game?
The cooling system is pressurized, as a result the cooling medium will be pushed out.
If you ever fired a live 7.x cartridge you would know about the damage it could cause.
Btw, do know what happens if the block gets to hot? It will lead to a whole rat tail of problems.

[Anders_And]

Slowly?
Based on what?
The picture you have in game?
The cooling system is pressurized, as a result the cooling medium will be pushed out.
If you ever fired a live 7.x cartridge you would know about the damage it could cause.
Btw, do know what happens if the block gets to hot? It will lead to a whole rat tail of problems.

U ever read any first hand account from WW2 pilots?! I just finished "the big show" by Pierre Clostermann. In one chapter he tells the story when his Spitfire was hit in the oilsystem over France and oil was spraying all over his canopy and how he managed to nurse his machine home with zero oil pressure and an engine that was on the edge to explode from the heat. He managed to cross the channel and land safely in England... there are 100s of these accounts from various ww2 pilots..

[swiss]

U ever read any first hand account from WW2 pilots?! I just finished "the big show" by Pierre Clostermann. In one chapter he tells the story when his Spitfire was hit in the oilsystem over France and oil was spraying all over his canopy and how he managed to nurse his machine home with zero oil pressure and an engine that was on the edge to explode from the heat. He managed to cross the channel and land safely in England... there are 100s of these accounts from various ww2 pilots..

100s? I start to wonder why pilots ever felt the need to crash land.
Maybe they were scared.

[Robo.]

U ever read any first hand account from WW2 pilots?! I just finished "the big show" by Pierre Clostermann. In one chapter he tells the story when his Spitfire was hit in the oilsystem over France and oil was spraying all over his canopy and how he managed to nurse his machine home with zero oil pressure and an engine that was on the edge to explode from the heat. He managed to cross the channel and land safely in England... there are 100s of these accounts from various ww2 pilots..

That is oil leak, fair enough. But coolant system? I don't know mate but I'd say with a coolant leak, you're a glider within minutes - also based on numerous sotries from the WWII books, I'd say it's not entirely unrealistic, but what do I know.

If my cooling unit is hit, I throttle up and climb at full power HDG nearest airfield. If I am above France I know I won't make it home, when I am mid-channel, I might as well be lucky and nurse it home. I usually switch the engine off as soon I get oil gasket leak or exhaust head failure and glide. Best gliding speed I found is 100 mph IAS, coarse pitch, well trimmed, descending cca 900-1000 fpm.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Just wanted to add what's been said by swiss.

Coolant is there simply to maintain an operating temperature for good combustion. To put into perspective, gasoline (oil based) combustion is around 4000 degrees (2100-2200C). This is the temperature inside the cylinder every single time that particular cylinder fires with fuel. In very simple terms, coolant is circulated from the radiator and then to the engine and back again. The thermostat controls this flow of coolant. The coolant in the engine reaches temperature (say 210F) then the thermostat opens allowing for the coolant that has been sitting in the radiator (cooled by air passing through it) to then go into the engine again, while the hot stuff sits in the radiator. Depending on the application / temperature / load on the engine, this process could take place at a constant dribble (constant recirculation of coolant from the engine to the radiator) or it could happen several times a minute (t-stat opening and closing).

The second you don't have coolant to replace the hot stuff in the engine you're gonna have some major problems. If anyone remembers good old carbs, we used to have choke horns, idle bleeds, metering plates, high speed air bleeds, etc.. With the choke on (engine cold) we are restricting air into the engine. This is creating a rich situation (excess fuel). But the engine needs this fuel to run with a low temperature cylinder.

With that said, imagine you have a perfectly running engine (cylinder temperature is on the money, choke is not being used etc.) Just imagine what happens when air temperature in the cylinder is too hot. Remember, when it's cold, we need an excess amount of fuel and less air to keep the engine even running. But we know this when starting the engine. We pull the choke cable and get the ol girl fired up. But when the cylinders creep up in temp (over normal) from a coolant loss, we are still pumping the same amount of air, same amount of fuel, and same ignition timing (not talking modern electronic fuel injection) as when the cylinder temp was normal. This is absolutely catastrophic.

In a matter of seconds (especially in an engine that is well under load and to top it off, high RPMs) you have the cylinder temp shooting out of control. You start having detonation and pre-combustion almost immediately. In the racing world, detonation makes the most expensive ash trays you've ever seen (burnt pistons). As temps go higher, and the last little bit of coolant is sitting in the lower portion of the block, the valve guides (part of the cylinder heads - which happen to be the highest point in most engines is the 1st starved coolant area) start to immediately burn any oil off of them. It's metal on metal. Combustion now leaks right through the guide, throwing fire directly on the spring that designed to keep it seated when the lobe of the camshaft hasn't commanded it open. And in a matter of seconds, the valves are stuck. Pistons could hit those valves in a non-clearanced motor. Those cylinders have lost compression. The head gasket has long been blown. The head is warped. The engine is toast.

This process will happen in a matter of minutes without proper cylinder temperature.

A couple things to be considered. Air will not cool the cylinder of an engine. I do not care if you are in the Arctic or the most miserably cold place on the planet, or at 40,000ft in an airplane. Air only cools the coolant. It needs to be there. 4000F can not be cooled without a liquid. Air cooled engines have special fins and metals that will dissipate heat allowing air to cool them. The reason being, the cylinder is located on the outer most part of the engine. A typical V-series engine, the cylinders are located inside huge cylinder walls that are surrounded by huge areas of coolant passages, then another layer of metal beyond that which is the outside of the block. Air will have zip to do with a v-style engine in cooling it (other than cooling the coolant itself)

In saying this, I doubt we have every variable working in the sim. I remember bugs of the temperature gauge still creeping up with an engine off and so forth. *pure speculation* I imagine a fighter aircraft has a small cooling system. There's just not much space to stuff everything in there. So any loss of coolant is probably pretty significant to the operation of the cooling system in a fighter.

Just my thoughts, but I think what we have now is pretty good. But it's a shame if we still have the engine off / temp rises bug still. Either way it's much better and much more realistic than what we had before.

[FFCW_Urizen]

Well at least I can make across with the before, the now, is impossible under most conditions.

I glided more than once from Dunkerque towards Hawkinge, it just depends on your altitude ;) . So from now on, no more tree hugging, get up there and play with the big boys :D .

[Anders_And]

I glided more than once from Dunkerque towards Hawkinge, it just depends on your altitude ;) . So from now on, no more tree hugging, get up there and play with the big boys :D .

Hehe im seldom below 3000m
But we are not talking about gliding.. We are talking about being able to nurse the engine back home sometimes.. like. Ww2 stories tell us...

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

In fact, current aircraft can still fly around far too long and maneuver far too long with leaking radiators.

According to WWII pilots I have read, once their radiators were perforated, they had a maximum of 5 minutes after a leak to either put the aircraft down, or bailout. And it the hole was bigger, the time could be as little as 30 seconds.

109's had a provision to shut one leaking radiator and run the engine off a single, but that was contingent on reducing boost and rpm, it was not possible to run combat power on a single rad without overheating the engine.

I think the current modelling is closer to fact than the previous, which saw aircraft being able to fly around for lengthy periods with leaks. That was not realistic at all.

[SlipBall]

I glided more than once from Dunkerque towards Hawkinge, it just depends on your altitude ;) . So from now on, no more tree hugging, get up there and play with the big boys :D .


Height is life:)

[SlipBall]

Just wanted to add what's been said by swiss.

Coolant is there simply to maintain an operating temperature for good combustion. To put into perspective, gasoline (oil based) combustion is around 4000 degrees (2100-2200C). This is the temperature inside the cylinder every single time that particular cylinder fires with fuel. In very simple terms, coolant is circulated from the radiator and then to the engine and back again. The thermostat controls this flow of coolant. The coolant in the engine reaches temperature (say 210F) then the thermostat opens allowing for the coolant that has been sitting in the radiator (cooled by air passing through it) to then go into the engine again, while the hot stuff sits in the radiator. Depending on the application / temperature / load on the engine, this process could take place at a constant dribble (constant recirculation of coolant from the engine to the radiator) or it could happen several times a minute (t-stat opening and closing).

The second you don't have coolant to replace the hot stuff in the engine you're gonna have some major problems. If anyone remembers good old carbs, we used to have choke horns, idle bleeds, metering plates, high speed air bleeds, etc.. With the choke on (engine cold) we are restricting air into the engine. This is creating a rich situation (excess fuel). But the engine needs this fuel to run with a low temperature cylinder.

With that said, imagine you have a perfectly running engine (cylinder temperature is on the money, choke is not being used etc.) Just imagine what happens when air temperature in the cylinder is too hot. Remember, when it's cold, we need an excess amount of fuel and less air to keep the engine even running. But we know this when starting the engine. We pull the choke cable and get the ol girl fired up. But when the cylinders creep up in temp (over normal) from a coolant loss, we are still pumping the same amount of air, same amount of fuel, and same ignition timing (not talking modern electronic fuel injection) as when the cylinder temp was normal. This is absolutely catastrophic.

In a matter of seconds (especially in an engine that is well under load and to top it off, high RPMs) you have the cylinder temp shooting out of control. You start having detonation and pre-combustion almost immediately. In the racing world, detonation makes the most expensive ash trays you've ever seen (burnt pistons). As temps go higher, and the last little bit of coolant is sitting in the lower portion of the block, the valve guides (part of the cylinder heads - which happen to be the highest point in most engines is the 1st starved coolant area) start to immediately burn any oil off of them. It's metal on metal. Combustion now leaks right through the guide, throwing fire directly on the spring that designed to keep it seated when the lobe of the camshaft hasn't commanded it open. And in a matter of seconds, the valves are stuck. Pistons could hit those valves in a non-clearanced motor. Those cylinders have lost compression. The head gasket has long been blown. The head is warped. The engine is toast.

This process will happen in a matter of minutes without proper cylinder temperature.

A couple things to be considered. Air will not cool the cylinder of an engine. I do not care if you are in the Arctic or the most miserably cold place on the planet, or at 40,000ft in an airplane. Air only cools the coolant. It needs to be there. 4000F can not be cooled without a liquid. Air cooled engines have special fins and metals that will dissipate heat allowing air to cool them. The reason being, the cylinder is located on the outer most part of the engine. A typical V-series engine, the cylinders are located inside huge cylinder walls that are surrounded by huge areas of coolant passages, then another layer of metal beyond that which is the outside of the block. Air will have zip to do with a v-style engine in cooling it (other than cooling the coolant itself)

In saying this, I doubt we have every variable working in the sim. I remember bugs of the temperature gauge still creeping up with an engine off and so forth. *pure speculation* I imagine a fighter aircraft has a small cooling system. There's just not much space to stuff everything in there. So any loss of coolant is probably pretty significant to the operation of the cooling system in a fighter.

Just my thoughts, but I think what we have now is pretty good. But it's a shame if we still have the engine off / temp rises bug still. Either way it's much better and much more realistic than what we had before.


That is why the devs left it out of the original release, the realities of temperature they felt would cause complaints...much like this thread:-P

[Anders_And]

[QUOTE=ATAG_Bliss;484935]Just wanted to add what's been said by swiss.

Coolant is there simply to maintain an operating temperature for good combustion. To put into perspective, gasoline (oil based) combustion is around 4000 degrees (2100-2200C). This is the temperature inside the cylinder every single time that particular cylinder fires with fuel. In very simple terms, coolant is circulated from the radiator and then to the engine and back again. The thermostat controls this flow of coolant. The coolant in the engine reaches temperature (say 210F) then the thermostat opens allowing for the coolant that has been sitting in the radiator (cooled by air passing through it) to then go into the engine again, while the hot stuff sits in the radiator. Depending on the application / temperature / load on the engine, this process could take place at a constant dribble (constant recirculation of coolant from the engine to the radiator) or it could happen several times a minute (t-stat opening and closing).

The second you don't have coolant to replace the hot stuff in the engine you're gonna have some major problems. If anyone remembers good old carbs, we used to have choke horns, idle bleeds, metering plates, high speed air bleeds, etc.. With the choke on (engine cold) we are restricting air into the engine. This is creating a rich situation (excess fuel). But the engine needs this fuel to run with a low temperature cylinder.

With that said, imagine you have a perfectly running engine (cylinder temperature is on the money, choke is not being used etc.) Just imagine what happens when air temperature in the cylinder is too hot. Remember, when it's cold, we need an excess amount of fuel and less air to keep the engine even running. But we know this when starting the engine. We pull the choke cable and get the ol girl fired up. But when the cylinders creep up in temp (over normal) from a coolant loss, we are still pumping the same amount of air, same amount of fuel, and same ignition timing (not talking modern electronic fuel injection) as when the cylinder temp was normal. This is absolutely catastrophic.

In a matter of seconds (especially in an engine that is well under load and to top it off, high RPMs) you have the cylinder temp shooting out of control. You start having detonation and pre-combustion almost immediately. In the racing world, detonation makes the most expensive ash trays you've ever seen (burnt pistons). As temps go higher, and the last little bit of coolant is sitting in the lower portion of the block, the valve guides (part of the cylinder heads - which happen to be the highest point in most engines is the 1st starved coolant area) start to immediately burn any oil off of them. It's metal on metal. Combustion now leaks right through the guide, throwing fire directly on the spring that designed to keep it seated when the lobe of the camshaft hasn't commanded it open. And in a matter of seconds, the valves are stuck. Pistons could hit those valves in a non-clearanced motor. Those cylinders have lost compression. The head gasket has long been blown. The head is warped. The engine is toast.

This process will happen in a matter of minutes without proper cylinder temperature.

A couple things to be considered. Air will not cool the cylinder of an engine. I do not care if you are in the Arctic or the most miserably cold place on the planet, or at 40,000ft in an airplane. Air only cools the coolant. It needs to be there. 4000F can not be cooled without a liquid. Air cooled engines have special fins and metals that will dissipate heat allowing air to cool them. The reason being, the cylinder is located on the outer most part of the engine. A typical V-series engine, the cylinders are located inside huge cylinder walls that are surrounded by huge areas of coolant passages, then another layer of metal beyond that which is the outside of the block. Air will have zip to do with a v-style engine in cooling it (other than cooling the coolant itself)

In saying this, I doubt we have every variable working in the sim. I remember bugs of the temperature gauge still creeping up with an engine off and so forth. *pure speculation* I imagine a fighter aircraft has a small cooling system. There's just not much space to stuff everything in there. So any loss of coolant is probably pretty significant to the operation of the cooling system in a fighter.

Just my thoughts, but I think what we have now is pretty good. But it's a shame if we still have the engine off / temp rises bug still. Either way it's much better and much more realistic than what we had before.[/QUOT


Thx! very informative!

[Anders_And]

That is why the devs left it out of the original release, the realities of temperature they felt would cause complaints...much like this thread:-P

Ah so when something is wrong and it will cause complaints it is right to leave it out to avoid complaints about it...

Great way of arguing

[SlipBall]

Ah so when something is wrong and it will cause complaints it is right to leave it out to avoid complaints about it...

Great way of arguing


In both scenarios the battle is over once you get a leak, there can be only the option to seek a safe landing. With the motor seizing, now you really need to be high up if a great distance is ahead of you. Its ok that way, but there is less chance of success to reach friendly territory now... I liked it better the other way, and the pilot should not mind me trying to get home, he ended the battle between us and left me to fate.

[FFCW_Urizen]

The thing is SlipBall, before the change you could lose all (!) of your coolant, without ever(!) running into problems. You really liked it better that way? Because that´s the way your post comes across. If i misunderstood that, sorry in advance.

S!

[SlipBall]

The thing is SlipBall, before the change you could lose all (!) of your coolant, without ever(!) running into problems. You really liked it better that way? Because that´s the way your post comes across. If i misunderstood that, sorry in advance.

S!

Maybe that is true with one of the patches I can't remember that. With the vershion that I fly most, any coolant leak gives loss of power, and so fight is over, run for it at a crawl...only one difference between the two, and that is the engine will now seize,..loss of power is the same, oil on window is the same, speed is slightly reduced now to about 180 from 200 with the E3