Are Lvl 5 Units viable anymore?

[ckdamascus]

Without Rune Mages (Crossworlds version), seems like there is no way to resurrect Level 5 units easily besides Turn Back Time and maybe Gift (not sure how it works or if it works on Lvl5).

I'm still somewhat early stages of the game (lvl 25) and playing the Viking class.

Lower level units, IF they can get the +60 attack over their defense, were the most damaging units in the game, so it seems fast Lvl1-Lvl4 units are the best choice since they can be resurrected en-masse via paladin.

A real shame as I was one of the first guys to use the Shrek Build (giant) in Crossworlds.

For people who are further in the game than me right now, is Lvl5 unit availability and viability better/easier?

[hellsing]

Well level 5 units trade damage for survivability.But since the battle is usually decided in the first round its kinda a moot point.My army consists of paladins/knights/inquisitors/rune mages/guardsmen and the guardsmen are the most damaging unit by far.

Lv 5 units are kinda pointless to me.

[zjazd18]

Level 5 units are probably bad for warrior, u dont gain much bonus from big atk/def. They can be nice for a mage but i wouldnt use them anyways. I saw pretty much all lvl 5 units in my game so avaibility isnt a problem for sure.
I'm using all level 4 army, and it's super strong.

I had some fun with new ice dragons but ditched them pretty fast.

[sethmage]

Is there a way to rez 5th level unit here?

[ckdamascus]

There is a Level 3 Distortion spell called "Turn Back Time" which can be used to revive a level 5 that isn't immune to magic.

It lets them "redo" the previous turn, so if they take any losses you let them go back to when they had no losses. It's a little tricky to use (e.g. you can't have any monster take the previous location it was in, or the spell won't work), but very powerful.

There seems to be a spell called "Gift" that can do the same, but not sure if it works for level 5 units or not.

[sethmage]

I don’t have that spell yet, but since dragons(?) are magic resistant it won’t on them anyway,
thanks for replay

[Bhruic]

There seems to be a spell called "Gift" that can do the same, but not sure if it works for level 5 units or not.

Gift (which doesn't work for level 5 units) doesn't actually turn back time in the same fashion, all it does is reset all of a unit's abilities. So if you have a level 1-4 unit that has the ability to resurrect level 5 units (I believe Inquisitors still can?), you could use Gift to reset that ability so they could use it more than once, but it won't do anything to resurrect units on its own.

[ckdamascus]

I think Turn Back Time does not work on black dragons, but it should work on emerald dragons (if they are still in this game).

Oh yeah, inquisitors, demonologists, old rune mages were ones who could resurrect level 5s. (I don't think it worked on black dragons though).

HMMMM then this is highly viable since I can artificially keep a high amount of those guys around.

The problem is some of the level 4s have new secondary abilities and they are QUITE good.

For example: Humans gets "adapability" which raises their base stat by a bonus percentage based on how well you know the terrain! This makes Horsemen very ideal shock troopers.

Assassins reworked their "kill counter" bonus of Crossworlds to a "familiar enemy" bonus. If you keep killing undead armies, you will get a bonus to attack/defense against undead.

I'm curious if some of the level 5s have new abilities.

Furthermore, a lot of level 5s have 'strange' abilities which aren't quantifable in simple "most attack".

e.g. piercing - hitting two stacks at once, poison gas, massive aoe on everything on the screen, etc.

While the game is 'easier', I think it will be a lot more fun with different builds and money to let you do said builds.

Maybe it is time for me to pick up some Ogres and Inquisitors...

[Zechnophobe]

I'm level 36ish, and been using an all level 5 army for about 15 levels. Blue, green, red, black dragons, and cyclopses or trolls. Works fine. I'd say the biggest issue with it at the moment is finding enough dragons to fill your army. Only ever seen 3 ice dragons, and 7 black dragons. Luckily (maybe) Greenwort had more than a dozen each of red and green.

I rarely have to redo a fight when losing a dragon, mostly due to my own stupidity (lulz, shooting ice dragons with overhit of red or black... good one brain).

Considering that Creation Magic lets stoneskin cap out at 52% physical resist from 40, it is even easier to build infinitely tanky units.

[ckdamascus]

That is what I was afraid of. Not having enough units for me to fill up.

Greenwort, dragons? Where?!?! I thought I searched it and ... no dragons. Poo. I miss those things.

My first play through is a Viking for now, so no Creation Magic in my near future...

However, the Absolute Rage ability (chance to get 25% bonus to attack rating) is FAR more useful on a level 5 than on a lower level unit. Also, it is not that easy to get +60 attack over defense... I might have to re-crunch some numbers to see if Level 5s do have some sort of a future for me.

[Bhruic]

When you return items to the Prince Consort, he increases the variety of hires. I'm pretty sure it's static in what he offers too. First return you get reds? Second you get greens? It could be backwards, but you get them in one of the two directions.

[Karlos]

In all KB games I always use black dragons - one of the best units ever. Of course you gotta be careful not to lose a single one since they're rare, especially in WoTN, but their fly'n'fire ability is absolutely hilarious, especially when combined with top level greasy mist.

But truth be told I never found any use for any other 5lvl unit in WoTN. Trolls, jotuns and chieftains are great in early stages, if you can find some, but then just meh. I dropped ice dragons after few fights as well and other dragons aren't nearly as good as blackies. Archdemons never really clicked with me, they do only average damage and their "Halve" ability is useful only in the first two rounds, where the enemy ranks are still numerous. But for that they have to teleport right in the middle of huge enemy crowds and get quickly massacred without any hope of ressurection. Cyclops are fantastic all around, only they were always the rarest unit in all my KB games and they could never keep up with my leadership. Did I forget anything?

By the way, fair warning - if Prince Consort is selling black dragons, buy all of them from him while you can and store them in a safe castle, which means basically anywhere but the main continent (and that goes basically for all human units you like to use; some of them you can buy in limited amount later but better safe than sorry). Do not store anything in Greenwort or Arlania castles while you work for the Prince. I REALLY could have used that advice myself :)

[marc]

As a mage, I absolutely love green dragons. They have two abilities that do damage without retaliation (and one of them gives you mana!), all spells work on them, so you can buff/heal them if needed and they can be resurrected by Demonologists easily. The best unit to cast phantom on, since they usually give back more mana than what the phantom cost to cast.

They are the best lvl 5 units imo. The new Archdevils aren't bad at all either, since you can now fully heal them by picking up a rage ball. If you plan carefully you can keep them alive. They can also be rezzed by the demonologists.

[namad]

I'd say below level 40 (or even more) that level 5 units are just fine, and that they can often take quite a few hits without needing to be revived, ice dragons are particularly good road blocks, and if you use them to deal a bunch of finishing blows you can keep endlessly recreating ice blocks and really gum up the works while other units apply the offense...


the real problem isn't that level 5 units are too hard to revive, it's that you can't sacrifice to gain more (at least you can't for dragons) and the game stocks so few, wotn has a TON of non-random troop recruitment options and they're all VERY small and it's quite annoying crossworlds was way more random but usually whatever you did get was quite generous, so maybe you couldn't get the exact unit you wanted, but there were plenty of diverse options with deep purchase stocks!

[Xargon]

When you return items to the Prince Consort, he increases the variety of hires. I'm pretty sure it's static in what he offers too. First return you get reds? Second you get greens? It could be backwards, but you get them in one of the two directions.

First return, I get blacks.
Regarding the dragon discussion: in previous KB games, I liked green dragons a lot, especially for a mage. Their second ability gives a ton of mana, and attacking without retaliation (maybe pulling enemies into traps) is nice as well. Fire attack would be better for greasy mist, but black dragons are impossible to resurrect (I guess?) and you can't cast stoneskin etc on them, so I never used them much as a mage. I think I had red dragons for a while and quite a bit of fun with them (and greasy mist, of course).

[redfuryau]

Dragons:

Blacks .. eh they're ok but their magic resistance hurts more than it helps imo. Give me a slightly weaker version that I can stoneskin/heal any day (see below..)

Greens. they're ok. Survivable enough with stoneskin/heal and the mana is nice but a little low on the damage.

Blues.. haven't tried 'em yet.

Reds .. are where it's at .. at least in previous games. I did quite a lot of impossible no-loss mage in AP with a single stack of red dragons.

Chuck a stoneskin on them, greasy mist a bunch of enemies and fly in and destroy .. works particularly well with fire-rains mixed in :) Seriously with high-crit, two-hex hit and greasy mist their damage output over 2-3 rounds can be just insane! At the end of a couple of rounds when your health has been whittled down .. 1 mana heal back to full health.

Sure you can't rez them but, with proper planning (particularly as a mage) you will never need to.

[camelotcrusade]

How many hit points are we talking? Would a max level sacrifice plus maidens to restore the sacrificial stack work? I've been growing my own level 4s for a while... all I need is one starter troop and my trusty sacrificial dagger (courtesy of the spell). There are so many weak fights I look forward to them because it's safe to grow more troops.

Hmm. Are royal thorns level 5? If they are then it works on them just fine. I get two a pop, and that's with level 2 sacrifice (haven't blown the crystals yet to upgrade it to 3... ouch). I'm a skald, too, so I'm not really the ubermage.

[tiberiu]

are lvl 5 units viable?

Yes, because Trolls are lvl 5 units. :grin:

[gamihai]

Lvl 5 are good for mage . Dragons are very good if you play with Armageddon . Usually if you have a powerfull mage as hero , you want lvl 5 as they die much less and you do not care about the damage done by the stack. You usually use spells to kill off all enemies :)

[Zechnophobe]

I feel like there is this misunderstanding that dragons do low damage. Red, green, and blue dragons all do very high damage, due to their high burn/chill chance, and being able to readily hit multiple stacks at once.

[namad]

How many hit points are we talking? Would a max level sacrifice plus maidens to restore the sacrificial stack work? I've been growing my own level 4s for a while... all I need is one starter troop and my trusty sacrificial dagger (courtesy of the spell). There are so many weak fights I look forward to them because it's safe to grow more troops.

Hmm. Are royal thorns level 5? If they are then it works on them just fine. I get two a pop, and that's with level 2 sacrifice (haven't blown the crystals yet to upgrade it to 3... ouch). I'm a skald, too, so I'm not really the ubermage.


royal thorns are level 4. you can't use level 1 sacrifice spell to create new ogres, nor new ice dragons, nor new royal thorns. just now tested it.


my theory is that sacrifice cannot create new plants NOR new level 5 units. (note you can create ice spiders via sacrifice so ice creation ability doesn't prevent sacrifice, this being an ability the ice dragon also has).


I've always loved thorns but the fact you can't using sacrifice or healing magic on them AND they're always rare in stores means it can be hard to use them all game long. or impossible.

[namad]

I feel like there is this misunderstanding that dragons do low damage. Red, green, and blue dragons all do very high damage, due to their high burn/chill chance, and being able to readily hit multiple stacks at once.

nope, they do low damage. now it's true dragons do deal high damage FOR a level 5 unit, but compared to say... thorn hunters or berzerkers? or bears? they do pathetic damage. the flipside though is that those units are easy to kill and hard to get into a good position, also of course the damage of lower tier units raises as the hero's level raises and the hero's attack can raise the weak units attack to high levels.

now dragons can often hit many units at once, but sometimes you'd rather deal 3000 damage to one enemy stack, than 1000 damage to 3 enemy stacks. really it all just depends, I'd say dragons are really powerful and freaking cool and awesome, but also reasonably balanced in the game.

[Zechnophobe]

nope, they do low damage. now it's true dragons do deal high damage FOR a level 5 unit, but compared to say... thorn hunters or berzerkers? or bears? they do pathetic damage. the flipside though is that those units are easy to kill and hard to get into a good position, also of course the damage of lower tier units raises as the hero's level raises and the hero's attack can raise the weak units attack to high levels.

now dragons can often hit many units at once, but sometimes you'd rather deal 3000 damage to one enemy stack, than 1000 damage to 3 enemy stacks. really it all just depends, I'd say dragons are really powerful and freaking cool and awesome, but also reasonably balanced in the game.

I don't think that thorn hunters, berserkers, or bears light things on fire doing 10% of the stacks health in damage each turn for three turns. Nor do they hit 2 to 4 stacks in an attack. They also tend to not deal any damage, or half damage, on the first turn.

Further, dragons deal more damage over the course of a fight do to still being at full stack strength. And, being level 5, are immune to many negative effects like sheep. And by having an all level 5 army, you can leverage spells like Fear that make your troops unattackable.

[namad]

I don't think that thorn hunters, berserkers, or bears light things on fire doing 10% of the stacks health in damage each turn for three turns. Nor do they hit 2 to 4 stacks in an attack. They also tend to not deal any damage, or half damage, on the first turn.

Further, dragons deal more damage over the course of a fight do to still being at full stack strength. And, being level 5, are immune to many negative effects like sheep. And by having an all level 5 army, you can leverage spells like Fear that make your troops unattackable.

what you describe here is what's known as defensive :) yes! the dragons are likely to deal more damage because of their resilient nature, however if you were to measure purely their offensive output over the burst of a single turn it would be low. or at very least this is why people tend to refer to high level units as being defensive in nature.

[Karlos]

what you describe here is what's known as defensive :) yes! the dragons are likely to deal more damage because of their resilient nature, however if you were to measure purely their offensive output over the burst of a single turn it would be low. or at very least this is why people tend to refer to high level units as being defensive in nature.

Not dragons they aren't. At least not blackies. An example:

First turn, my blackies are first to go due to their high init. I press Wait, whittle down the mob on either edge with my shooters and prevent the enemy from advancing with Loki's touch, Ice Blades or various spawns. At the end of the first turn my blackies fly forward, hit the whittled down mob on the edge plus the one behind it. Right at the start of the second turn I cast greasy mist and my blackies do their fly'n'fire thing hitting often 4 or more stacks all at once due to them being still neatly lined up (the excellent Sabotage skill helps magnificently). Then it's just a matter of some planning to keep them out of harm's way for the rest of the fight while the other units easily mop up the thinned enemy ranks :)

That way the fight is decided at the beginning of the second turn, all thanks to black dragons. They're not front line shock troops but with the right tactics they're dps monsters. Throw in the crystal with decreased leadership requirement + higher morale, the 3rd level Oratory and the 3rd level Berserker skill and they're the highest dps dealing units in the game, easily.

True Red Dragons can be made tougher with Stone Skin and so on but they can burn only in a straight line which is much less usable than the blackies' zig-zag burning and frankly - you don't need dragons to be your front line tanks. There're much better units for that (Executioners, Demons, Griffins come to mind).

[Dragnipurake]

Not dragons they aren't. At least not blackies. An example:

First turn, my blackies are first to go due to their high init. I press Wait, whittle down the mob on either edge with my shooters and prevent the enemy from advancing with Loki's touch, Ice Blades or various spawns. At the end of the first turn my blackies fly forward, hit the whittled down mob on the edge plus the one behind it. Right at the start of the second turn I cast greasy mist and my blackies do their fly'n'fire thing hitting often 4 or more stacks all at once due to them being still neatly lined up (the excellent Sabotage skill helps magnificently). Then it's just a matter of some planning to keep them out of harm's way for the rest of the fight while the other units easily mop up the thinned enemy ranks :)

That way the fight is decided at the beginning of the second turn, all thanks to black dragons. They're not front line shock troops but with the right tactics they're dps monsters. Throw in the crystal with decreased leadership requirement + higher morale, the 3rd level Oratory and the 3rd level Berserker skill and they're the highest dps dealing units in the game, easily.

True Red Dragons can be made tougher with Stone Skin and so on but they can burn only in a straight line which is much less usable than the blackies' zig-zag burning and frankly - you don't need dragons to be your front line tanks. There're much better units for that (Executioners, Demons, Griffins come to mind).

But as you progress through the game and enemy stacks become larger, it becomes impossible for your Black Dragons to survive any retaliations without losses in battle. So unless you have lots of Black Dragons available for purchase you're forced to rely only on their ability (Reload 3?) for dps ... I'm not sure dealing damage every 3-4 turns is worth an entire slot in an army.

Red Dragons are at least still viable late-game because they can be healed/ressed/restored with sacrifice/etc.

[blacklegionary]

Red and Black dragon suck against demons, especially Archdemon.

Still, I like them though.

[ckdamascus]

A few subtle, but serious differences in this version of the game. Also, we aren't sure if they are still balancing...

a) Fire/Poison/Cold ticks can crit. Yes. Fire ticks can crit which is a HUGE advantage to dragons. However, as a Viking/Warrior, who cares? I use Gudrida's rage in round 2 very easily... so I don't need a paltry 50% chance to burn or 80% chance to burn in a small area.

b) Viking/Warrior has skills that RAISE critical hit damage. Yes, RAISE critical hit damage BEYOND 150% + max (bless) which is the old norm. AND I have a chance to inflict double damage. This means my "measily" Paladin stack was able to crit+berserker for 11K damage and I only had 40 of them. 40 of them! I didn't even have Pygmy/Defenselessness/Plague at all yet.

Viking/Warrior tends to be able to hit the 'breakpoint' more easily since they can have higher leadership and with the new buffs they gave him, he can do some serious serious damage.

Mages can't really do this (at least in Crossworlds). Max leadership too low, needs to blow both spells early on just to get the de-buffs needed to get close to warrior damage, etc.

There is a reason why a dragon army could never do 14-30K dmg per hit per unit like a 100% Crit All-Ranged or Fairy army can.

The Shrek army did about 12K+ per hit somewhat consistenly, but given that Rune Mages let me do a deadly swarm attack, I am better off with better damage to leadership ratio especially as the game goes on.

And because Rune Mages cannot resurrect level 5s (in Crossworlds they could also resurrect Black Dragons), it makes running a Level 5 army potentially annoying for No-Loss later on.

We will see though, because Crossworlds had a somewhat fixed path and limited battles in a closed system.

If this game is much easier, it might be possible to do well with a relatively low number of Level 5 units given all the new Viking damage buffs.

[Karlos]

But as you progress through the game and enemy stacks become larger, it becomes impossible for your Black Dragons to survive any retaliations without losses in battle. So unless you have lots of Black Dragons available for purchase you're forced to rely only on their ability (Reload 3?) for dps ... I'm not sure dealing damage every 3-4 turns is worth an entire slot in an army.


That's why I wrote you have to whittle down the stack you're attacking in the first round, so it deals only some measly damage on the counter-attack. In the second round you use you AoE skill, and in the third round most stacks should be safe to attack.

My blackies get to attack almost every round. Only rarely I don't engage any stack in the first round if it's not whittled down to a safe level (btw you can attack even a very powerful stack by casting ice wall in front of it and hit it as an effectively second stack in a row).

And as the guy above me wrote, the fly'n'fire ability now crits as well and I always manage to crit at least 2 stacks. So a fight against huge all-plant army with high morale black dragons and greasy mist is hilarious beyond words :)

As I said, black dragons are not the typical bum-rush and bash unit like berserkers or demons. They need some finesse but with the right tactics and planning they can dps monster anything.

[Dragnipurake]

That's why I wrote you have to whittle down the stack you're attacking in the first round, so it deals only some measly damage on the counter-attack. In the second round you use you AoE skill, and in the third round most stacks should be safe to attack.

My blackies get to attack almost every round. Only rarely I don't engage any stack in the first round if it's not whittled down to a safe level (btw you can attack even a very powerful stack by casting ice wall in front of it and hit it as an effectively second stack in a row).

And as the guy above me wrote, the fly'n'fire ability now crits as well and I always manage to crit at least 2 stacks. So a fight against huge all-plant army with high morale black dragons and greasy mist is hilarious beyond words :)

As I said, black dragons are not the typical bum-rush and bash unit like berserkers or demons. They need some finesse but with the right tactics and planning they can dps monster anything.

What difficulty are we talking about, because as early as Greenwort on Impossible I'm seeing multiple stacks of 400-600 zombies and 1k+ skeletons.

[tiberiu]

Regarding this discussion about damage, my take is that what lvl 5 units can offer you is more important. Purely damage-wise, I am sure Thorn Hunters have higher potential then Black Dragons. With emphasis on "potential". For example with crown and with some items and spells. But the fights rarely are about pure damage. Battles are more about abilities and talents then they are about damage. For example, and this is just to prove a point now, a shooter with low damage and high speed (such as droid) can easily kill a much larger force of slow moving high-damagin unit like Polar Bear for example. Or even snakes (not royal) can be better then simple bears because they have the lounge ability, while being lower in everything else besides initiative.

When all is said and done, damage is just one of the stats and it's not sure that it is the most important. :)

[marc]

royal thorns are level 4. you can't use level 1 sacrifice spell to create new ogres, nor new ice dragons, nor new royal thorns. just now tested it.


my theory is that sacrifice cannot create new plants NOR new level 5 units. (note you can create ice spiders via sacrifice so ice creation ability doesn't prevent sacrifice, this being an ability the ice dragon also has).


I've always loved thorns but the fact you can't using sacrifice or healing magic on them AND they're always rare in stores means it can be hard to use them all game long. or impossible.

I use lvl 1 sacrifice all the time to make new green dragons and archdemons, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. In fact, with a lvl 3 sacrifice, I can easily get 5 dragons a pop (at 60 int) as a mage.

[Razorflame]

ofc level 5 army is viable lol

they have most hp do alot of damage and have high and def rates

you don't have to use heal/stone skinn all the time (unlike level 4 units who need em)

and if we are speaking about enemy having high numbers well who gives a deal? a smart player will always find a way to beat it


and as a side note for people who be wanting to use dragons or any level 5 units



USE orc shaman( their TOTEM heals every round but most importantly THEY HEAL BLACK dragons) (on side note at least they did in KB:ap:) )


i gotta go i will go into further details when i'm back home:)

[Zechnophobe]

What difficulty are we talking about, because as early as Greenwort on Impossible I'm seeing multiple stacks of 400-600 zombies and 1k+ skeletons.

Hmm, well, even with 27% physical resist, a black dragon should survive one hit from those. But you don't have to do it that way. You can stoneskin the reds, throw them in, follow up with the blacks at the end of turn 1, and then use their fire-for-all skill to put the hurt on many other stacks. A little fear or blind on any stacks you can't completely demolish, and you are good to go.

I've pretty easily no-lossed all the way through AP on impossible with a similar setup, and it's all about knowing how to use your spells and where to make attacks.

[Zechnophobe]

A few subtle, but serious differences in this version of the game. Also, we aren't sure if they are still balancing...

a) Fire/Poison/Cold ticks can crit. Yes. Fire ticks can crit which is a HUGE advantage to dragons. However, as a Viking/Warrior, who cares? I use Gudrida's rage in round 2 very easily... so I don't need a paltry 50% chance to burn or 80% chance to burn in a small area.

Really? I've not seen that happen, but I maybe am not paying enough attention. You should actually use Lord of the North instead of Gudrida's Rage. 75% chance to chill is higher than the chance to burn until you get Gudrida's Rage pretty high up there.



b) Viking/Warrior has skills that RAISE critical hit damage. Yes, RAISE critical hit damage BEYOND 150% + max (bless) which is the old norm. AND I have a chance to inflict double damage. This means my "measily" Paladin stack was able to crit+berserker for 11K damage and I only had 40 of them. 40 of them! I didn't even have Pygmy/Defenselessness/Plague at all yet.


I'm not sure if this is meant to be a pro or a con for level 5's. Many level 5 units have pretty high crit chances, especially with a bit of morale. And since their activated abilities can crit, it makes them even stronger compared to auto-attackers.



Viking/Warrior tends to be able to hit the 'breakpoint' more easily since they can have higher leadership and with the new buffs they gave him, he can do some serious serious damage.

Mages can't really do this (at least in Crossworlds). Max leadership too low, needs to blow both spells early on just to get the de-buffs needed to get close to warrior damage, etc.

There is a reason why a dragon army could never do 14-30K dmg per hit per unit like a 100% Crit All-Ranged or Fairy army can.

Well, but that's partially because the fairy army could get +2 or +3 damage from items, giving them absurdly high damage per leadership. That alone is a pretty big multiplier on their damage.



The Shrek army did about 12K+ per hit somewhat consistenly, but given that Rune Mages let me do a deadly swarm attack, I am better off with better damage to leadership ratio especially as the game goes on.

And because Rune Mages cannot resurrect level 5s (in Crossworlds they could also resurrect Black Dragons), it makes running a Level 5 army potentially annoying for No-Loss later on.

Later on the Black Dragons attack second. This isn't really a big problem.



We will see though, because Crossworlds had a somewhat fixed path and limited battles in a closed system.

If this game is much easier, it might be possible to do well with a relatively low number of Level 5 units given all the new Viking damage buffs.

I think a lot of the arguments that black dragons are weak seems to ignore, or be unaware of, their incredibly high resistances. Ice Dragons too. Slippery Cuirass, twinkling boots, and Guardian Angel give Black Dragons 52% physical resist, helping them remain tanky later on. (And allows stone skinned red dragons to have almost 95% physical resist, which is even easier with Creation now). Their resistences to magic and fire make them generally unkillable by damage dealers of those types. As usual, choose your targets well.

[Karlos]

What difficulty are we talking about, because as early as Greenwort on Impossible I'm seeing multiple stacks of 400-600 zombies and 1k+ skeletons.

Ok, good point, my first playthrough was on Normal. I used this tactics in AP on Hard as well. A bit tougher but still eminently doable. I don't dispute though that on Impossible it could be...well, impossible.

[dudex]

dragons are great except maybe against demons. their multiple hitting skills are very powerful and can decimate the enemy on the first turn so much that when its their turn to go they barely do any damage.

[namad]

I use lvl 1 sacrifice all the time to make new green dragons and archdemons, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. In fact, with a lvl 3 sacrifice, I can easily get 5 dragons a pop (at 60 int) as a mage.

hmmm maybe my intelligence is just too low! I didn't think to consider that!


however... are royal thorns, black dragons, ice dragons sacrifice increase able?

my lack of intelligence might explain why I can't create an ogre, it might explain why I can't create an ice dragon, but it doesn't explain why I can't create a royal thorn? are plants just unable to be raised this way?



edit: looks like magic immunity is shared by black and ice dragons and prevents sacrifice so the fact there aren't very many of either in my game means i won't be able to use them much longer than now

[Dragnipurake]

Hmm, well, even with 27% physical resist, a black dragon should survive one hit from those. But you don't have to do it that way. You can stoneskin the reds, throw them in, follow up with the blacks at the end of turn 1, and then use their fire-for-all skill to put the hurt on many other stacks. A little fear or blind on any stacks you can't completely demolish, and you are good to go.

I've pretty easily no-lossed all the way through AP on impossible with a similar setup, and it's all about knowing how to use your spells and where to make attacks.

I'm not saying it's impossible on Impossible, but well ... Personally I'm a big fan of Dragons (and Lvl 5 Units in general) because they feel so 'cool' to use. But using Black Dragons just doesn't seem 'imperious' enough because I'm constantly worried about taking damage. With Red Dragons I can send them to the front lines without fear - which feels more 'Dragon-ish' - since I can buff/heal/use sacrifice to restore them.

[Zechnophobe]

I'm not saying it's impossible on Impossible, but well ... Personally I'm a big fan of Dragons (and Lvl 5 Units in general) because they feel so 'cool' to use. But using Black Dragons just doesn't seem 'imperious' enough because I'm constantly worried about taking damage. With Red Dragons I can send them to the front lines without fear - which feels more 'Dragon-ish' - since I can buff/heal/use sacrifice to restore them.

Well, I've done no loss impossible with them, and recall it being one of the fastest (real time wise) ways of doing it. This was in KBAP where my army was RGBB dragons, and Archdemons. Except for the final two fights (Ktahu and Bhaal) where I used just Bone dragons + eviln.

[camelotcrusade]

my theory is that sacrifice cannot create new plants NOR new level 5 units. (note you can create ice spiders via sacrifice so ice creation ability doesn't prevent sacrifice, this being an ability the ice dragon also has).


Sacrifice works just fine on level 5s - but keep in mind a lot of them (like most dragons) are immune to magic. You also can't use it in any way on summons, like the plants a Royal Thorn summons (but it works on the Royal Thorns themselves).

As Marc said, it definitely works on level 5s. I just used it to create a green dragon (thank you, blade of pain... +10% sacrifice power hehehe).

[Nevar]

Sacrifice works just fine on level 5s - but keep in mind a lot of them (like most dragons) are immune to magic. You also can't use it in any way on summons, like the plants a Royal Thorn summons (but it works on the Royal Thorns themselves).

As Marc said, it definitely works on level 5s. I just used it to create a green dragon (thank you, blade of pain... +10% sacrifice power hehehe).

SOME dragons... There are... what? 2 units in this game immune to magic?

Also, on that note, has anyone else noticed that Geyser now hits Black Dragons?

[Zechnophobe]

SOME dragons... There are... what? 2 units in this game immune to magic?

Also, on that note, has anyone else noticed that Geyser now hits Black Dragons?

Book of Evil, Phoenix, Black and Ice Dragons, Chaos Dragon

[namad]

Sacrifice works just fine on level 5s - but keep in mind a lot of them (like most dragons) are immune to magic. You also can't use it in any way on summons, like the plants a Royal Thorn summons (but it works on the Royal Thorns themselves).

As Marc said, it definitely works on level 5s. I just used it to create a green dragon (thank you, blade of pain... +10% sacrifice power hehehe).

are you sure? cause when I tried to kill my paladins to create new royal thorns I got the same question mark I got on ice dragons? are you sure plants aren't immune to this? like they are immune to many forms of healing?

[blacklegionary]

Maybe because your power is too weak to create a new Royal Thorn.

[Karlos]

Also, on that note, has anyone else noticed that Geyser now hits Black Dragons?

I absolutely noticed, no fair! :) But seriously, I just think it's another bug. It's "immunity to magic" not "immunity to magic except Geyser" right?

[Dragnipurake]

I absolutely noticed, no fair! :) But seriously, I just think it's another bug. It's "immunity to magic" not "immunity to magic except Geyser" right?

Maybe it's immune to spells that specifically target it, but not collateral AoE damage. Has anyone tried other AoE spells on them?

(I'm not saying that's how it 'should' work, just that it might have been implemented this way in WoTN. But if it's only Geyser then yeah, probably a bug)

[namad]

well... remember the armageddon+black dragon combo? yeah... immune to all meant immune to all, eh?

[Nevar]

well... remember the armageddon+black dragon combo? yeah... immune to all meant immune to all, eh?

Not sure if sarcasm or not. Blacks have never been immune to armageddon.

@Zechnophobe: I was only counting non-summons, although it is weird that, as someone who uses lots of summons, I'd forgotten those had magic immunity, too. Still.

[ckdamascus]

Actually, the bug with Geyser and Black Dragons... I believe it occured sometime in Crossworlds latter patches.

If you go SOLO Black Dragon stack, you can't "target" the black dragon with geyser, therefore the black dragon cannot be hit with geyser. IF he goes with an army, he CAN be hit (which I think is stupid).

I just really remember running with a black dragon with my armies and never getting with with geyser. Maybe it was all a dream...

[Karlos]

I just really remember running with a black dragon with my armies and never getting with with geyser. Maybe it was all a dream...

No I remember it too. All my units flying in the air, only the blackies sitting there. Dunno if it was in TL, AP or CW though.

[bugmenot]

In arena.lua script for geyser they check if there are some nonmagic immune creature for it to cast, so One black dragon won't be hit, but if there is an army, then he either got hit, or there is some other script (or should be).

Hence, I say it is bug.

[Nevar]

As someone who was playing CW two weeks ago, I can tell you Geyser did not affect magic immune units. This whole black dragons flying into the air thing is new.

[Colbert30]

Well, I've done no loss impossible with them, and recall it being one of the fastest (real time wise) ways of doing it. This was in KBAP where my army was RGBB dragons, and Archdemons. Except for the final two fights (Ktahu and Bhaal) where I used just Bone dragons + eviln.

What I also like about Black Dragons is their initiative. As a mage, they were always going first, so that let me control the battlefield with CCs or buffs as I pleased, even before the battle begun.

[Colbert30]

Not sure if sarcasm or not. Blacks have never been immune to armageddon.

@Zechnophobe: I was only counting non-summons, although it is weird that, as someone who uses lots of summons, I'd forgotten those had magic immunity, too. Still.

Wasn't armageddon astral damage? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

[Nevar]

Wasn't armageddon astral damage? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

Kind of? I had 50% Astral Resistance in CW and it still hurt when I cast it.

[Colbert30]

Kind of? I had 50% Astral Resistance in CW and it still hurt when I cast it.

Yeah. I should have quoted Namad. Sorry. I just meant that, AFAIK, astral damage is not considered magic damage, so it's ok that black dragons were not immune to armageddon.

[Nevar]

True. That's why the Reaper's skills from KBTL worked on Blacks, too.

... Does Sacrifice work on Black Dragons? O_O (as in sacrificing the dragon, not it being the target of the boost)

[ckdamascus]

Sacrifice shouldn't work on black dragons. Besides this "AoE" Geyser bug, the only things that did as far as I remember

a) Plague. level 1 plague was so efficient, I had to get it even as a warrior.
b) Rune Mage Crossworlds resurrection
c) Gizmo (Crossworlds later patch? Or was it red sands?) could heal black dragons
d) Dancing Axes of Shamans could heal black dragons

It is possible Geyser is allowed to hit black dragons now because a NEW rule in this game is

Giant's Earthquake can hit flying creatures now, but with reduced effect (only 30% effective I think). I personally don't like this, but eh.

By the way, Black Dragons initiative isn't THAT good (init 6). But they make level 1-4 enemies have -1 initiative (Power of the Dragon unit passive), so that is what makes them really good as "Interdictors" in battle, even if they aren't THAT great in straight combat against real enemies.

It also meant that the mortal enemy of the Black Dragon was the Archdemon (init EIGHT), who was faster AND was immune to the negative initiative.

But as a Warrior, I would have Onslaught and Quick Draw, one cast of helplessness on Archdemon (they can only debuff at the start of their turn, like Shield of Rage right now) and 1 or 2 shots of my 100% critical chance hunters, and the stack would be nearly dead. Who said damage doesn't matter? :)

[Zechnophobe]

Sacrifice shouldn't work on black dragons. Besides this "AoE" Geyser bug, the only things that did as far as I remember

a) Plague. level 1 plague was so efficient, I had to get it even as a warrior.
b) Rune Mage Crossworlds resurrection
c) Gizmo (Crossworlds later patch? Or was it red sands?) could heal black dragons
d) Dancing Axes of Shamans could heal black dragons


Plague was so incredible vs Black Dragons. Penalties to health, defense, and morale (for even larger penalties!) Dropped them down in strength like nothing else.


It is possible Geyser is allowed to hit black dragons now because a NEW rule in this game is

Giant's Earthquake can hit flying creatures now, but with reduced effect (only 30% effective I think). I personally don't like this, but eh.

I feel anything that makes Giants better is worthwhile. They make Ancient Ents look like goddamn champions.



By the way, Black Dragons initiative isn't THAT good (init 6). But they make level 1-4 enemies have -1 initiative (Power of the Dragon unit passive), so that is what makes them really good as "Interdictors" in battle, even if they aren't THAT great in straight combat against real enemies.

I've currently got the Mask of Rage upgraded, and black dragons. Gives almost the entire enemy -2 init, which is awesome. You even go before Furious Goblins. (Though rascally archdemons still go first).



It also meant that the mortal enemy of the Black Dragon was the Archdemon (init EIGHT), who was faster AND was immune to the negative initiative.

But as a Warrior, I would have Onslaught and Quick Draw, one cast of helplessness on Archdemon (they can only debuff at the start of their turn, like Shield of Rage right now) and 1 or 2 shots of my 100% critical chance hunters, and the stack would be nearly dead. Who said damage doesn't matter? :)

As a mage, my personal favorite thing to do vs Archdemons was Pain Mirror + Timeback. Y'know those impossibly large stacks of archdemons near the end of the game, like 44 or so? They'd go over and Half a stack of 20 red dragons... and then you'd Pain mirror them three times and timeback your dragons. Booyah. Maged.

[namad]

how do you get hunters to 100% critical? how do you get anything besides berzerkers to 100% critical?

[Zechnophobe]

how do you get hunters to 100% critical? how do you get anything besides berzerkers to 100% critical?

Ranged units can get some nutty crit chance, especially with good morale. That said, if he shot an Archdemon, and was referring to KB:AP, he could also have had the Ally who doubles your crit chance against demons and undead.

[sethmage]

doom spell?

[ckdamascus]

Ranged units can get some nutty crit chance, especially with good morale. That said, if he shot an Archdemon, and was referring to KB:AP, he could also have had the Ally who doubles your crit chance against demons and undead.

Yeah, definitely Armored Princess.

Max morale, telescopic thingie, companion with increase chance to crit chance, a few things... been a while. :)

I had ~100% crit chance against everything. I killed Ktahu Boss in Armored Princess in Impossible mode in 6 rounds, no loss.

You needed sheep for the Ancient Vampires, because you could never kill them in vampiric form. :)

Nah, no doom. I'd use Pygmy, Helplessness, or Plague. I'd cripple any stack before they could get a chance to move.

This version, it is easier to get higher crit chance with just one or two items, but not sure if you can get to 100%. Not that it is necessary anyway, since you can do MORE than 150% dmg with crits now and have a chance to do double damage ON TOP of the > 150% crit chance.

[Nevar]

Giant's Earthquake can hit flying creatures now, but with reduced effect (only 30% effective I think). I personally don't like this, but eh.


Is this actually working now? Last time I used Quake (about a week ago), dragons just flew into the sky like before.