The so called "no-loss" concept (whole game) is wrong and stupid.

[tiberiu]

Somebody wrote on this forum that developers of wotn did wrong to make it impossible or nearly impossible to do no-loss on impossible difficulty. I'll explain why the whole concept of a no-loss game is retarded and should be discarded quickly.

Basically, if one is able to finish a game about huge fights and combats, many labeled as "invincible" and he is able to win without losing anything, this means that the game is unbalanced and poorly designed. Wars have casualties and it's only logical that a fight called "impossible" or "invincible" should in fact be factually impossible to do, otherwise it makes no sense to even call it that way. To be able to win "impossible" fights with no loss is even more stupid.

I'm one who encouraged developers to make the game HARDER, not easier. I'm a smart gamer, I don't need to play easy games. On TL/AP/CW , it would become really boring really fast even on Impossible diff. The only option for one who SEEKS a challange, not avoid it, is to self-impose customized rules such as "use only lvl 1 and 2 units", dont use phantom/gift,stone skin+target on ghosts etcetera.

I'm hoping that WOTN, when it will be patched in order to become playable (as it currently isn't because of crashes and bugs), will finally be a Kings Bounty game where losses are implicit and logical.

There's something to be said. It is quite simply, obvious, that the gamer, the player, should do all that is available to him in order to lose no units. He should not be successful in doing so, though. That's the whole point of a well balanced game.

I discourage people to cry so much about how they can't do No loss in WOTN. Get more strategy. Yes, more strategy and less "I'm just going to reload now because I'm to stupid to play the game as it's intended". Oh, and yea, using broken spells and abilities, does not account for "strategy". Also, reloading 50 times before you are finally able to beat some invincible creep by abusing it's AI is not strategy, is lameness.

[amyndris]

I did say that but I disagree with you. The frustration with WotN is that no loss is near impossible (on the first island) because:
1) You have no troop choices. Unlike KBTL or KBAP, there is no randomness. You're forced into the same troops. There is no strategic decision (how can I build my army?) because there are no options.
2) You can't explore. Locking you to a single island limits your strategic choices because you can't pick your fights and you can't build an army.

Half the game is building an awesome army and half the game is fighting the battles. Unlike KBTL or KBAP, you only have half a game because the army building part of the game isn't really there (at least on the first island). When you're given no choice in that regards, it actually hurts the strategy.

Now, what it sounds like you're complaining about is "All that strategy (coming back with the correct army to tackle the challenges) is making tactics (in-fight strategy) invalid". That's true, but I like the fact that KBAP and KBTL gave you the option to either play at the strategic level or at the tactical level. You ask for "Get more strategy"? You can't. Because you have no options to play with.

[Fatt_Shade]

No-loss was never best option for KB players, since it doesnt offer any award for finishing game with 0 casualties. But from this way of playing did some interesting strategies come : 100% crit all range army (human+elf, or all orc depending), shrek(giant) build in CW, all dragon army, summoning galore build etc.
As you said that game needs to be made harder, it doesnt mean all enemy need to have huge army and enemy heroes to be 10+ lvl more then you. It just need to make AI better (here i`ll mention HoMM3 babies mod for theLegend).
About game being unbalanced check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae and talk about combats labeled as invincible.

[Mygaffer]

Let us all just wait until this game has been out longer before we assume that no loss is impossible in the first place. I will admit it seems so now but people always find abusable/broken mechanics to exploit as time goes on.

Also, I think most here can agree that the main point of the game is NOT a no loss victory, rather a victory. So the developers are quite rightly focusing how challenging it is to win or lose, not how challenging it is get a no loss victory.

No loss always has been and always should be something for the most dedicated KB players to shoot for, something that is very difficult to achieve at the higher difficulty levels.

So let us all play and see just what is possible.

[Highborne]

No loss is tough with vikings only.

Once you get past Vikings to the old area, Rune Mages + Paladins + Inquisitors = No losses on anything besides boss fights (without using magic).

No losses on Vikings islands would be very tough.

[Totoro]

I sort of agree with OP.

It bothers me how there are so many creatures to hire wherever I go but I never have to hire them because my losses are so minimal. I never have to rely on weak troops.

It would be much more exciting if the game made me worry that will there be enough troops available to hire.

And when engaging in a fight I would rather worry that am I going to win this fight rather than am I going to lose any troops.


Also Impossible difficulty should indeed be renamed to Expert or something.

[BB Shockwave]

I agree on that regard - it'd be better, and more like the original (DOS) KB if you at first could only have access to low-level (1-2) units and gradually get higher level ones. At the same time, you should not face too many high level creatures yourself. Actually, the first Katauri KB game was pretty good in this regard. But in AP... what would make me use Swordsmen if I can get knights and paladins in the next island?

No loss is tough with vikings only.

Once you get past Vikings to the old area, Rune Mages + Paladins + Inquisitors = No losses on anything besides boss fights (without using magic).

No losses on Vikings islands would be very tough.

But frankly after playing No-loss in KB and AP, I am tired of using the same old units over and over again. I did a no-loss on Normal with Lizardmen in AP, and on Hard with Undead in KB, but it is a tedious process, requiring a re-play of the same battles many-many times. Right now, I just want a fun game to play, so I threw out my ideas about no-loss and just try to play the game with different army setups. I still want to try an all-demon army in Crossworlds, and the Orcs and Elves too.

[Sooty]

Until they design the game without the medal for no-loss, with a way to easy replenish your troops (paying for them of course) without having to run all the way back to a shop...

I think no-loss for regular encounters actually makes sense though. Because it's the "best" one can do, and so it serves as a handy cut-off point to balance the game. What they need to do is to balance the game so that many different kinds of unit compositions can achieve no-loss, depending on the hero skills or spells and with optimal play.

Boss encounters should be designed to make you lose units to create tension though.

[Bhruic]

I'm a bit on the fence on this one. I think that playing a no-loss game should be possible. But I also think that playing on the hardest difficulty level should be extremely difficult. So ideally I'd say that a no-loss on the hardest difficulty level should be almost impossible.

The problem is that people want challenges in different ways. It's hard to craft a scenario where you can please everyone.

[tiberiu]

As a side note, and a meaningful example, I once beat Hagni in AP while being like lvl 15 or so, no loss, using droids and inquisitors. It took me around 200 rounds to ressurect my army and some 2 boring hours of casting mana accelerator+ phantom on inquisitors. If u wander where did my mana came from after round 20, it came from transmute + enemy chosha summon every 2 rounds. (1 mana every 2 rounds yay).

[Zhuangzi]

I've 'been there done that' playing no-loss Impossible games of Armored Princess, so I can't be bothered trying to do the same for WoTN. And in actual fact, it means that I can relax without having to worry if I lose some units in a fight.

[zjazd18]

Well it's the case of ppl wanting bigger challenge and for me playing with losing units is too boring even on impossible coz you have enough gold and troops avaible to replenish your loses. There should be either very little troops in terms of quantity not the diversity or lack of gold then losing units would be somewhat relevant. As it is now u can just go buy back what u lost, and i cant find it fun to play. Also if the game is able to be completed no losses it doesnt automaticly means its easy, it means ppl find proper strategies, and for example first island really hinders strategies and rely mostly on RNG which is bad for an strategy game.

[Colbert30]

Why is it that some people find the way other people like to play their games so aggraviating, as to call it stupid? If you are having fun with the game, just let others do what they want.

That said, I will agree that there should be no complaining that a very tough challenge is very... tough. One that is not part of the challenges (achievements) designed for the game, to boot.

[tiberiu]

Also if the game is able to be completed no losses it doesnt automaticly means its easy, it means ppl find proper strategies,

Can you give an example of a "proper strategy"?

Casting Phantom/Gift on a stack of Inquisitors the whole game ad-infinitum is proper strategy?
Or maybe using 1 Royal Snake to defeat 1000 polar bears Is proper strategy?
Multiplying units out of thin air at little to no cost is proper strategy? (Sacrifice)

I call these unbalanced and poorly implemented game features.

[zjazd18]

Can you give an example of a "proper strategy"?

Casting Phantom/Gift on a stack of Inquisitors the whole game ad-infinitum is proper strategy?
Or maybe using 1 Royal Snake to defeat 1000 polar bears Is proper strategy?
Multiplying units out of thin air at little to no cost is proper strategy? (Sacrifice)

I call these unbalanced and poorly implemented game features.
Yeah it's called clever use of game mechanics, figuring that kind of stuff is what it's fun about it. Some things may seem lame, but no one is forcing you to use them. There should be plenty of ways to play this game, no-loss included.

[Fatt_Shade]

No loss never gave any special reward in whole game, except medal for no loss battle on start (50 battles, of 300+ in game isn`t even 15% game time and starting battles were ridiculous comparing later in term of difficulty).
I think it`s started as way to preserve units that werent available in game inn sufficient amount for hero lds (AP/CW you finish Bolo island quest go back to Debir return stone and get 5 paladins in some shop and you can lead 10 or more, or opposite go to Montero and find alchemists in 4 shops all together 5000+ of them, who the f..k need 5000 alchemists ???). So no loss is strategy itself keeping your army in best possible shape. You defeat enemy, but later spend some turns to resurrect losses before finishing that last pathetic enemy survivor and continue on next battle does seem a bit gay but fro any who want to go high score going back to other islands in search of units to restock this was only way of achieving it.
@tiberiu Mentioned infinite gift on inquisitors, sacrifice+time back . . . all great way to keep your army on full lds, but some1 had to figure that mechanics out it didnt come in game manual so i give respect to players who figure them out.
As for game balance features, better that then massively using cheats as is common in this time when every1 want all and right now without any effort.
In CW part of forum i answered on post where question was `How to easy defeat bone dragons on impossible, i`m going for no loss`. So contradicting himself he want easy way to do something, on impossible difficulty. That kind of players are retarded and stupid not those who figure out how to use what they have available in game rules to finish it (all no loss and other unbalanced things, it`s in game mechanics players didnt add it themselves).

EDIT : Afterthought about my better AI statement, i`ll advertise HoMM3 babies mod here a bit so pls be patient : Intellect description states that every point give you spell dmg and every 7 point 10% bonus, and every 15 points some spells last longer. WRONG this mechanic doesnt work in and KB game so far, but in HoMM3 mod it works great Mat there made interesting AI changes so high Int heroes can use doom/blind/stone skin all spells with lasting effects to more benefit because this change. But he also added some bonuses to enemy heroes - if attack is highest stats their units have bonus crit%, if defense then all units have some +resistances%, if intellect then enemy heroes have double spell cast like higher magic skill (all enemy heroes have some bonuses as if they have some skills or items equipped to improve their army). So example - enemy necromancer hero in Gray wastelands have 40 intellect can cast 3 spells per turn/have 20mana/turn regen and blind 2 mine units for 5 turns and cast mass weakness for -80% dmg. This all seams like acts of real human player and every enemy hero battle in that mod were really tough and interesting. i had some old saves without HoMM3 mod changes and i checked them. Every hero had same army as in mod leadership vise so mod didnt simply give x2 to x3 multipiler to enemy troop and make them harder to defeat by adding more enemy, but really made some great changes to game mechanics and AI of enemy heroes. Suppressing/upgrading items good luck towers are much harder, enemy elf heroes have quick draw skill so range units have +initiative and crit%, some magic heroes lower your resistances and spells are interesting to decimate your army :-) , 2 new wives and completely changed kids (now they give individual bonuses) expl : marry Mirabella give bonuses to human units and get kid Ingham - priest/inquisitor +1moral/speed/initiative/-10% leadreship cost/+crit%/+20 hp or Edric - +8% defense to all units and griffin +1moral/speed/initiative/-18% leadership cost/+crit%/+18%hp. Every wife have 20+ kids so possibilities are great (or crap depending on your luck because you can play Warrior hero and get kids with bonuses to intellect and spells, or go Mage and get att/crit% and other battle bonuses useless to mage class :-)
Some other changes in HoMM3 mod - rage spirits changed rage skills and max lvl is 40 GREAT fun :-D
Mana/rage income =0 after 20 battle turn, so no more 100 turn battles to resurrect all units, what mana/rage you have at 20 turn that is all you`ll have to do with.

There i did no loss just to check if i can since it was much harder then impossible play in original the Legend, but it was great fun because i changed 8 wives and to get all kids you need 40 battles (1 kid after 10 battles then kiss and w8 for next :-) with each wife (care to get kids with Rina she must stay in human form, after you get 4 kids change her to zombi and get great undead bonuses), and i changed my army completely 8 times. Did i go all archer army for 100crit% NO, did i go summoning galore to choke enemy units in summoned crap ? NO But i had great time trying all new things in game this mod brought.
So no loss is personal choice and it doesnt mean it`s obligatory but might be fun to see if you can manage it.

[Karlos]

Why is it that some people find the way other people like to play their games so aggraviating, as to call it stupid? If you are having fun with the game, just let others do what they want.

That said, I will agree that there should be no complaining that a very tough challenge is very... tough. One that is not part of the challenges (achievements) designed for the game, to boot.

Cannot agree more, on both points.

I think attempting a no loss playthrough makes for en excruciatingly tedious game but if ppl like it why not. I even respect that on some level.

But dissing the game design just because the no loss playtrough on Impossible diff cannot be done is like complaining Bethesda doesn't "allow" you to finish Skyrim without taking a single point od dmg. A bit daft-headed I recon.

[Razorflame]

u know what people are just jealous they can't beat something on impossible where others can

the game is fine some people stated that ahriman was impossible to do on impossible

well gues what
people already found a way to kill him without losses

the next one is the necromancer also no big deal


u know what this games also has a LUCK factor in it
sometimes u just need to get lucky to get that extra soothsayer/spell/no damage spell caused by enemy hero


all of this means retry retry if you don't have the patience to do that sure i understand why u want a loss game. Because simply you won't be able to hide out the fact that there are people better than u in KB they have found ways to overcome even the most difficult of challenges!

You sir have no respect for the people that found those ways

and as for u saying a war always has casualties that is just a lie

i will give u one simple example
i america would nuke a bomb on any country u want
and declare 5 minutes before impact of the nuke it's WAR


well say goodbye to that country;)

at least if it's a small on

so america wouldn't have any losses

:D

[tiberiu]

u know what people are just jealous they can't beat something on impossible where others can

the game is fine some people stated that ahriman was impossible to do on impossible

well gues what
people already found a way to kill him without losses

the next one is the necromancer also no big deal


u know what this games also has a LUCK factor in it
sometimes u just need to get lucky to get that extra soothsayer/spell/no damage spell caused by enemy hero


all of this means retry retry if you don't have the patience to do that sure i understand why u want a loss game. Because simply you won't be able to hide out the fact that there are people better than u in KB they have found ways to overcome even the most difficult of challenges!

You sir have no respect for the people that found those ways

and as for u saying a war always has casualties that is just a lie

i will give u one simple example
i america would nuke a bomb on any country u want
and declare 5 minutes before impact of the nuke it's WAR


well say goodbye to that country;)

at least if it's a small on

so america wouldn't have any losses

:D

Lol man, you're funny. Thanks for your well-thought and useful contribution. Yes, I admit, I'm very jealous on people who reload 50 times to be able to beat an invincible monster. Not.

I love how you assess my game. I'm a chessmaster and warcraft lvl 40 player, heroes 3,4,5 pro. You want 1v1 in any of these games? Tell me how noob and jealous I am after, not before.

Don't compare real life with a GAME, lol. KB is not meant to be realistic game.

"no respect for people who found those ways".

Dude, "found those ways" are you kidding me? What is there to find? You just cast Gift or Phantom on Inquisitors. And buy a few droids. And you can already quit the game because you WON. You are talking like abuzing exploits like hell is brain science. It's not.

Yes, I have no respect for NOOBS, because what Noobs do also affects the way games are done. And I like to play well-done games, not games done in such a manner that Noobs will enjoy.

[CharmedonWB]

I play no loss without ever cracking open the spellbook.

[Metathron]

As a side note, and a meaningful example, I once beat Hagni in AP while being like lvl 15 or so, no loss, using droids and inquisitors. It took me around 200 rounds to ressurect my army and some 2 boring hours of casting mana accelerator+ phantom on inquisitors. If u wander where did my mana came from after round 20, it came from transmute + enemy chosha summon every 2 rounds. (1 mana every 2 rounds yay).

I've never been a big fan of no-loss past obtaining the grand strategy medal for the leadership, so my question for you guys who go to such extreme lengths is: does the pleasure of winning against, for example, Hagni at level 15, provide so much satisfaction as to outweigh the tedium & "wasted" time of playing a single battle for 2 hours?

[Razorflame]

yes ;) it gives more satisfaction without ever taking a loss

no matter how long it took that is the pleasure a hardcore gamer gets

KB is just a advanced game of chess

[Razorflame]

Lol man, you're funny. Thanks for your well-thought and useful contribution. Yes, I admit, I'm very jealous on people who reload 50 times to be able to beat an invincible monster. Not.

I love how you assess my game. I'm a chessmaster and warcraft lvl 40 player, heroes 3,4,5 pro. You want 1v1 in any of these games? Tell me how noob and jealous I am after, not before.

Don't compare real life with a GAME, lol. KB is not meant to be realistic game.

"no respect for people who found those ways".

Dude, "found those ways" are you kidding me? What is there to find? You just cast Gift or Phantom on Inquisitors. And buy a few droids. And you can already quit the game because you WON. You are talking like abuzing exploits like hell is brain science. It's not.

Yes, I have no respect for NOOBS, because what Noobs do also affects the way games are done. And I like to play well-done games, not games done in such a manner that Noobs will enjoy.

sure will play homm vs u i play 3-4-5
and i never said u were noob

but a funny thing u note is that u say droids+inqisitor is free loss

what about the other ways people have found?

i find it quite amusing for u to say that u just name 1 STRAT lol

what about the people who beat the game with just 1 STACK?
or an undead army with no loss?
dragon army? level 5 army?
orc army?

There are alot of strats that involve no losses
you just name 1


because there is a big fact to KB
THERE IS NOT 1 SINGLE unit combination that is perfect! for ending the game

you can finish the game no losses with different combinations
there are plenty of options just for u to being find out

[tiberiu]

what about the people who beat the game with just 1 STACK?
or an undead army with no loss?
dragon army? level 5 army?
orc army?

There are alot of strats that involve no losses
you just name 1


I name 1 because it is the most common and the most overpowered of all. You keep talking about how "people have found" good strategies while missing my point. To the end of the game, you can use only 1 stack of peasants and do no loss on invincible enemies. That means peasants are good units? Nope it means some spells are absurdly overpowerd.

Forget 1 Stack, I'm pretty sure the game (excepting Boss fights maybe) can be done using single units. Of course there are many exploits. Like abusing Troll's regeneration at night. You can finish the whole game with a troll. Or with a Black Dragon. And this is a big turnoff for anybody who wants to play a challanging game. There simply isnt any difficulty to it.

Anybody can play the game as they like. But it's my right to point out that some thing are downright wrong. Thats what forums are for, everybody says what they think about a particular issue. My issue is that the game is too easy because of the said exploits.

Possible fixes would be to completly remove from the game the spells and abilities that allow such absurdities, and to better balance the creatures.

So I can name you not 1 but many such "strategies", better called cheap exploits. The most effective one in AP/CW is sending in Ghosts with exp. Stone Skin on them in the enemy and letting them go out of control. The game will consider them temporary enemies and as a result, you win lots of bonus XP for Pet Dragon. This might work in wotn too.

[Totoro]

I've never been a big fan of no-loss past obtaining the grand strategy medal for the leadership, so my question for you guys who go to such extreme lengths is: does the pleasure of winning against, for example, Hagni at level 15, provide so much satisfaction as to outweigh the tedium & "wasted" time of playing a single battle for 2 hours?I think the satisfaction comes when you can convince yourself that you're better than others because you beat Hagni at lvl 15.

When people feel inadequate about themselves they try to compensate that by trying to convince themselves that they are better than others.
That's why short dudes usually workout a lot harder and some KB fans spend over 2 hours on a single battle trying to figure out how to beat it without losses.

[Razorflame]

eh u call the troll a overpowered absurdity? but that has nothing do to with spells

then u name a ghost which can go out of control so the ghost is absurd too?

spells make the game easier or at least doable in some cases

try using boss fights without spells or rage:)
gl with that

and as a side note of all this

you don't have to use those spells
or go for a no loss

[Kel]

Anybody can play the game as they like. But it's my right to point out that some thing are downright wrong. Thats what forums are for, everybody says what they think about a particular issue. My issue is that the game is too easy because of the said exploits.

Simply don't use this "exploits". The game is single player only, so unit balance and spell balance does not matter at all. If someone has fun beating hagni with level 15 in 200 turns, so be it, who cares?

I like the many options in KB and reducing them wouldn't make the game necessarily harder. Sure, you could remove all abilities that make no loss even possible, but would the game then be harder? Is Heroes of Might and Magic a challenging game - i don't think so.

[tiberiu]

then u name a ghost which can go out of control so the ghost is absurd too?



Is absurd in combination with stone skin. (90 to 95% phisical damage reduction) - most creeps are phisical.


try using boss fights without spells or rage:)
gl with that

Son, you can't use rage in boss fights.

you don't have to use those spells or go for a no loss

Simply saying "you don't have to do this" is a fine way to avoid the issue. Regardless of what I do, the issues still remain, some gameplay of KB is stupid.

@ Tororo try harder

[Fatt_Shade]

Who said that no loss game takes 2 hours per battle ?
1 of interesting no loss builds all ranged 100% crit army every battle takes 3-4 turns max (killed Baal in 3 turns, finished in 5th because needed to block Gilbert units from killing last stack of imps all in all 5 minute battle max), with maybe 1 turn to revive units because almost every hit your units make is 20K+ dmg, and if you go orc build goblins could go more then 1 action per turn(unstoppable talent) and get ridiculous amount of dmg.
Getting to your goal army can be challenging but it`s mostly 1/3 of game time.
Or human army+royal griffin +3 moral to all, and paladins for 2turn, archmage magic shield to horseman + warrior counterstrike, inquisitor mainly is there to look pretty and cast holy rage in undead battles. mage with all summoning army or all dragon army with voice of dragon +3 moral, high 80+ intellect mage with 20000 dmg black hole per turn . . .
If there is only 1 way to beat this game impossible no loss it could be called bug or exploit, but there is lost of them and that is just the way game is made. No loss builds are noticable because in previous game players commented on them most, and lost of game strategies came from those forum treads.
If most of talk about game were like this : Tread called `I dont know how to cast spells` and then 100+ replies from players explaining how to upgrade some magic school then open spell book, and then upgrade some scroll in to spell . . .
Some experienced players would come and laugh and call them all noobs. Now there is lots of talking about no loss plays and you come along and bitch about it, so game needs to be changed drastically to be acceptable for you. i just dont see it being done.
It is solo player game and every rule you decide will hold, until it get some multiplayer mode when we could start screaming on eachother online. But till then , chill and play or dont , your choice.

[amyndris]

I find that for about 90% of the fights, a generic Phantom/Paladin, Death Knight/Evilkin/Unlimited Counter item or Droid^2 can no loss your way through.

But for certain fights, it really makes you get creative. A good example was one of the spider fights in KBAP where I ended up nolossing it by delaying and filling up the entire grid with droids so the boss couldn't spawn more spiders and wearing him down. Is that cheap? Maybe. But at the same time, you really get to think of ways to defeat the encounter on your terms; it becomes a puzzle game as opposed to a combat game which is more interesting to me anyways.

Even finding uses for rare spells like Sacrifice and Peacefulness (and the Peace Pipe) was part of the no-loss game. You had to view all the spells, units and items as a toolkit and find the right tool to no loss the game. Is it more challenging than fighting normally? No it's not, on the tactical level, but it's more engaging on the strategic level.

Think of it this way. Regular playthough is about "picking a lock" to get inside the door. No-Loss playthrough is about finding the key. Different goals, different challenges. Neither is better than the other, they just appeal to people with different interests.

[Zechnophobe]

Lol man, you're funny. Thanks for your well-thought and useful contribution. Yes, I admit, I'm very jealous on people who reload 50 times to be able to beat an invincible monster. Not.

Actually, in KBAP at least, no loss was more an issue of knowledge. I did a few different no losses runs with the different classes, and rarely found myself re-loading. In fact, I was very against the idea of abusing the RNG like that. And for those few fights that did require a half dozen tries, it was all the more rewarding in the end, just like any challenge.




I love how you assess my game. I'm a chessmaster and warcraft lvl 40 player, heroes 3,4,5 pro. You want 1v1 in any of these games? Tell me how noob and jealous I am after, not before.


"1v1 me bro, 1v1 me!"

This is such an incredibly immature thing to say I don't even know how to respond. You have ego, and think you are great... how does that give you the ability of telling people what challenges they should and should not aspire to?



Don't compare real life with a GAME, lol. KB is not meant to be realistic game.

"no respect for people who found those ways".

Dude, "found those ways" are you kidding me? What is there to find? You just cast Gift or Phantom on Inquisitors. And buy a few droids. And you can already quit the game because you WON. You are talking like abuzing exploits like hell is brain science. It's not.


Once again, I think you are completely misunderstanding the point. I've only done one run with Droids, and that was a minimum time no-loss (as in, 7 or 8 days, without losses). That one is more like a tool-assisted run heh. Most runs involve simply perfect strategy and use of position blockers, control effects, and a bit of resurrection, to achieve. Infinite res engines are indeed quite boring, and I would generally recommend against them if you are looking for a good time.



Yes, I have no respect for NOOBS, because what Noobs do also affects the way games are done. And I like to play well-done games, not games done in such a manner that Noobs will enjoy.

Well good news! You can play this game, and feel how badass you are, and since it isn't multiplayer, no one will care how you play it! You can stew about how much you hate noobs, and you can tell your favorite Valkyrie girlfriend all about it. It's the great joy of the SP experience.

[Zechnophobe]

So, why No Loss in the first place?

It's pretty simple really. In every single fight you go up to, not getting killed, while killing the opponent, is the general goal. Reduce casualties, increase lethality. This isn't specific to the hardcore no-loss players, but rather what everyone does. I'm sure we've all been quite pleased at a fight where we managed to not lose a single troop and think 'yeah, that went really well!'

After you do that for a while, you start to identify certain types of enemies as causing you more problems than others. Ugh, Alchemists are a pain, they do poison and/or fire damage for many turns in a row, and are hard to prevent. Then you learn about target, or spell shackles, and suddenly you win those fights without losses as well.

Heck, you might even get into some really good combo's. Stone skin on griffons, then magic shield, and inquisitors to ress any that die... combined with target? Your Mage LOVES this! Any suddenly a lot of fights you win without casualties.

Once you start getting really good at finding strong things, and how to win more and more slanted battles, it eventually becomes "What if i could do this... in every single fight in the game? Like... never once screw up?" And thus, no-loss is born.

For the same reason some people play Legend of Zelda without picking up a heart container, or do speed runs of half-life, or whatever. It's the added fun, the challenge of it.

That's why we try to no-loss.

[tiberiu]

That's why we try to no-loss.

Nice trolling kid. Are you blind? Or just dumb? IF you read what I worte you will see that I said it is perfectly OK for a player to TRY to do do No loss in combats. The problem with the game is that it allows this thing to actually happen, even in the harshest of combats, labeled as invincible.

Yea, I'm smart and pro at games. It's only normal that I send in my assessment. It's guys like me that makes games evolve. You suck if you think that what you are doing when you kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake is strategy.

How about shut up if you don't have anything relevant to say?

[Zechnophobe]

Well, I tried to have a real conversation with you, but you are apparently one who thinks that 'someone who disagrees with you' is a troll.

[Fatt_Shade]

@tiberiu
Yea, I'm smart and pro at games. It's only normal that I send in my assessment. It's guys like me that makes games evolve. You suck if you think that what you are doing when you kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake is strategy.
Ok this things are doable, but take to much time and get boring really fast. But let me ask you this : Did you play Age of Empires games ? Where you get some foot archer unit (longbowman best for testing) and attack some enemy cavalry = result should be obvious cavalry will run to archer and kill him because it MUST be faster then unit on foot. WRONG you attack then turn and run, then attack then turn +run . . . and you kill cavalry unit with archer on foot. Seems retarded but it was in game mechanic and some player did it. Does it make whole game retarded NO, but it is just 1 thing that needed more attention from dev`s and never got fixed :-(
Same is here , no loss are doable even on impossible diff. Does all players do it ? NO, everyone play at own pace.

[MoonLite22]

Nice trolling kid. Are you blind? Or just dumb? IF you read what I worte you will see that I said it is perfectly OK for a player to TRY to do do No loss in combats. The problem with the game is that it allows this thing to actually happen, even in the harshest of combats, labeled as invincible.

Yea, I'm smart and pro at games. It's only normal that I send in my assessment. It's guys like me that makes games evolve. You suck if you think that what you are doing when you kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake is strategy.

How about shut up if you don't have anything relevant to say?

Woah, I came to this thread expecting a decent discussion... What is wrong with you kid ? Are you really so mad because some people try no-loss playthroughs...? Just don't do it, you don't have to.

I'd love to have problems like these.

[Youpiya]

Well, I tried to have a real conversation with you, but you are apparently one who thinks that 'someone who disagrees with you' is a troll.

Reading the title of the topic, I wouldn't have tried...
Can we all play the way we want now ? youpiiiiiiii :cool:

[tiberiu]

Woah, I came to this thread expecting a decent discussion... What is wrong with you kid ? Are you really so mad because some people try no-loss playthroughs...? Just don't do it, you don't have to.

I'd love to have problems like these.

I'm probably older then you so you are pathetic to call me "kid". I am not mad at how people play. Learn to read and maybe go raise your IQ a bit to understand what you read.

[Ma233e]

It is quite simply, obvious, that the gamer, the player, should do all that is available to him in order to lose no units.
http://www.rdox.info/01.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/02.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/8.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/04.jpg

[BB Shockwave]

The problem is, for no-loss, at least in AP (WotN will give us more options, like Soothsayers and Warrior Maidens, not to mention that Gift is back...) forced you to ALWAYS use some resurrecting unit... like Paladins, or Inquisitors, or Rune Mages. Problem is, Inquisitors are just a useless unit unless you are fighting undead, and using Paladins in EVERY gameplay gets tedious. Same goes for the droid build. Yes, I've done it once, but I have no desire to do it again.

I'd rather try playing the game with an all-Elf army, or an all-Undead one, etc. I did a no-loss on AP with an all-Lizardman army+Warrior - but only on normal, using Resurrection spell/Time Back only. I have no desire to do it on Impossible, where the game would make me use the same old, same old tactics (Phantom+Paladin for example) over and over in every battle, often for 40+ turns. It is... mind-numbing and boring. This way, each battle was different, and I got to experience the Lizardman units and learn their strenghts and weaknesses. (Apart from the Chosa, I love them all...)

So I can understand why the new guy says "it's stupid", I do not agree with the way HOW he said that or how he trolled others who disagreed.

[Highborne]

I'm probably older then you so you are pathetic to call me "kid". I am not mad at how people play. Learn to read and maybe go raise your IQ a bit to understand what you read.

Considering you called other posters "kid" that makes you immature, so does your attitude and demeanor.

I suggest you fix those things then post again.

[Colbert30]

Nice trolling kid. Are you blind? Or just dumb? IF you read what I worte you will see that I said it is perfectly OK for a player to TRY to do do No loss in combats. The problem with the game is that it allows this thing to actually happen, even in the harshest of combats, labeled as invincible.

Yea, I'm smart and pro at games. It's only normal that I send in my assessment. It's guys like me that makes games evolve. You suck if you think that what you are doing when you kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake is strategy.

How about shut up if you don't have anything relevant to say?

I'm probably older then you so you are pathetic to call me "kid". I am not mad at how people play. Learn to read and maybe go raise your IQ a bit to understand what you read.


If you were as smart (or old) as you claim, you would know that insulting people instead of exchanging arguments will not get you very far.

Now, to your argument: All I will say is that this game is as yours as it is for everyone who bought it. Games are made for a wide variety of players and tastes. Your preferences, contrary to what you may think, are no more important or relevant than those of anyone else. And, if this thread is any indication, your opinion seems to be in the minority here. So, if devs found themselves suddenly in doubt about how they should develop their game and inclined to listen to anyone here, who would the devs listen to?

If all that it comes to is that the game is too easy for you at the hardest difficulties, or that you think invincible fights should have cassualties, like others have pointed out, there are ways to accomodate these preferences in a single player game, without having changes made to it affect everyone else.

[tiberiu]

And, if this thread is any indication, your opinion seems to be in the minority here. So, if devs found themselves suddenly in doubt about how they should develop their game and inclined to listen to anyone here, who would the devs listen to?

Argumentum ad populum, at it's best :grin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[Youpiya]

OMG, just stop answering him ! The title of this topic itself is the evidence of intolerance and frustration. Why does a gamer have to EXPLAIN that the way some other players choose to play is stupid ? taking time for this ? wtf !?

Do I EXPLAIN to my wife playing card just for fun is stupid !?
Do I EXPLAIN to my son his favorite color sucks !? (even if it sucks ;))

We play the way we want. Having fun in an individual game is an individual matter.
Period.

[tiberiu]

OMG, just stop answering him ! The title of this topic itself is the evidence of intolerance and frustration. Why does a gamer have to EXPLAIN that the way some other players choose to play is stupid ? taking time for this ? wtf !?

Do I EXPLAIN to my wife playing card just for fun is stupid !?
Do I EXPLAIN to my son his favorite color sucks !? (even if it sucks ;))

We play the way we want. Having fun in an individual game is an individual matter.
Period.

Not very logical forum user here. Goes on to ANSWER and encorages everybody else not to answer. Kind of misses the point, doesn't it, son?

But this topic wasn't about how you choose to play, cause I really couldn't care less about what u do.

[Bhruic]

Argumentum ad populum, at it's best :grin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Actually, that's not true in this case. If he were arguing that his case is true simply because of numbers, you'd be correct. But his argument (which I'm not saying I agree with) is that because the numbers are on his side, it makes economic sense. Which, if the premise is true, would be a correct conclusion.

[Elwin]

Tiberium you are a bit too offensiuve, calm down.

[tiberiu]

Actually, that's not true in this case. If he were arguing that his case is true simply because of numbers, you'd be correct. But his argument (which I'm not saying I agree with) is that because the numbers are on his side, it makes economic sense. Which, if the premise is true, would be a correct conclusion.

I was discussing the quality of the product, not it's selling potential. I never suggested that they would make more money if they made the changes to make the game harder so his point is moot. I expressed my opinion that the game is way too easy and my hopes that this might change. I am well aware that some people may find it hard to play even on Normal, or Easy. They are on top of the gauss curve.

I don't understand the fanaticism of these hypocrites. They say that they want to play as they like, but don't respect my right to try to do the same.
If they want an easy game where they kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake then whatever, they should do that and praise the companies for doing games like that. I, on the other hand, don't enjoy that, and I use my right of expression to criticize the game for being easy, and I offer solid unrefutable arguments to my cause.

This thread has slowly degenerated into a gang-bang of ad hominems on my person and instead of somebody arguing calmly and politely, simply do straw men and other sophistry.

[blacklegionary]

I think the "no loss" concept have ruined the game. Because the developer trying to make "no loss" impossible, the game becomes very tedious to play.

[tiberiu]

Tiberium you are a bit too offensiuve, calm down.

Do you possess paranormal abilities my son? How would you know my state of altertness otherwise? If so, go get your 1 milion $ prize from the Randi Foundation.

This being said, I am very calm, so your assessment of me is poor. If you think I broke the rules to which I agreed to when I signed up on this website, you should punish me and eliminate my user from here, but son, please, don't tell me what to do. You insult me freely without being specific about my supposed transgressions.

edit : ok so it seems I'm gonna be banned soon. Yes, that will be solid proof of how bright some folks around here are. Whatever, go ahead.

[Bhruic]

I was discussing the quality of the product, not it's selling potential. I never suggested that they would make more money if they made the changes to make the game harder so his point is moot. I expressed my opinion that the game is way too easy and my hopes that this might change. I am well aware that some people may find it hard to play even on Normal, or Easy. They are on top of the gauss curve.

Well, what you were discussing isn't relevant, I was refering to what you were quoting. And what you were quoting was someone talking about who the developers should focus on pleasing, and that's the majority. Which is correct, they want to sell more copies.

I don't understand the fanaticism of these hypocrites. They say that they want to play as they like, but don't respect my right to try to do the same.
If they want an easy game where they kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake then whatever, they should do that and praise the companies for doing games like that. I, on the other hand, don't enjoy that, and I use my right of expression to criticize the game for being easy, and I offer solid unrefutable arguments to my cause.

This thread has slowly degenerated into a gang-bang of ad hominems on my person and instead of somebody arguing calmly and politely, simply do straw men and other sophistry.

Well, your position makes no sense, so it's not surprising there's little rational discussion. Basically, you're saying that people should be allowed to play however they want, as long as there's no option to allow people to play in a way that's different than how you want. Sheer silliness.

You'd have done much better by simply creating a thread saying you think the game is too easy. That's at least a somewhat supportable argument. When you start off by insulting those who enjoy going for a no-loss game, there's really not much farther down to go.

[tiberiu]

Well, your position makes no sense
Ipse dixit?

You don't even comprehend what my position is, mate. You just insult me like all the others.

Basically, you're saying that people should be allowed to play however they want, as long as there's no option to allow people to play in a way that's different than how you want. Sheer silliness.

Except that I'm not saying such a thing. What you are doing is being evil or being very stupid. I hope it's the former.

That's at least a somewhat supportable argument. When you start off by insulting those who enjoy going for a no-loss game, there's really not much farther down to go.

I'm not insulting anybody. I am the one who is insulted. I never said that is wrong to try to do no-loss,. quite the contrary. But you must learn to read and to stop being an asshole. Good bye I expect I'm going to be banned now for telling it like it is.

[Fatt_Shade]

@tiberiu You called Elvin `but son`, and Youpiya `son` after his comment that he is married and have child. So my question is : How OLD are you ???
On tread title - you started by insulting no loss way of playing but that isnt what most ppl do, it`s simply most commented treads on this forum because in those play`s many interesting things get discovered and therefore commented and discussed after.
Yea, I'm smart and pro at games. It's only normal that I send in my assessment. It's guys like me that makes games evolve. You suck if you think that what you are doing when you kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake is strategy.
How about shut up if you don't have anything relevant to say?
You are pro in games? Did you win any tournament, or earn money as way of living from gaming ? NO. Professional is calling some who makes living working at certain area (and here i dont count Chinese players in wow who grind gold, to sell after on E-bay). You might be experienced gamer at most.
Guy`s like you makes game evolve? No guy`s that take some problem and solve it then publish their results are one`s that make games evolve. In all your bitching here you never gave some idea how to make no loss actually impossible.
You mentioned again killing 1000 bears with 1 snake, is that subject painful for you, did you fail to acomplishe that in previous KB games and it bugs you still? Who ever said that using 1 unit to kill whole enemy army is no loss strategy? Defeating enemy and keeping your units safe, and resurrected before battle ends is goal , not losing 2 hours/battle.
If in game exists resurrection spell, and revive ability on unit why wouldnt players use them for their benefit ??? And in other games that have checkpoints, is that stupid and cheating also ? How about automatic respawn after death in FPS games ...
I started game and got crap choice of units, so i use any means to keep those that are actually useful alive, until i can restock and advance a bit in hero skills/spells/rage. therefore i`m stupid by your opinion.
This thread has slowly degenerated into a gang-bang of ad hominems on my person and instead of somebody arguing calmly and politely, simply do straw men and other sophistry.
I havent insulted you in any way in my comments on this tread like you did to anyone replying here, but would still like to read your thoughts on my post. So pls give some viable way to fix this mistake of no loss problem in KB games.

[tiberiu]

On tread title - you started by insulting no loss way of playing

I never did that.


You are pro in games? Did you win any tournament, or earn money as way of living from gaming ? NO.

Yes in fact. I earn money from being a proffesional chessplayer. International Chess Federation (FIDE)can confirm.


you never gave some idea how to make no loss actually impossible.

Rework/remove overpowered spells, abilities and units, lessen player advantages over enemy armies (pet dragon, spells, skills etc have a far to great impact)

You mentioned again killing 1000 bears with 1 snake, is that subject painful for you, did you fail to acomplishe that in previous KB games and it bugs you still? Who ever said that using 1 unit to kill whole enemy army is no loss strategy? Defeating enemy and keeping your units safe, and resurrected before battle ends is goal , not losing 2 hours/battle.

Nope. Nice adhominems though.

If in game exists resurrection spell, and revive ability on unit why wouldnt players use them for their benefit ???

Of course they should. I say it in my first post. Get your glasses or learn to read.

therefore i`m stupid by your opinion.

You said it, no me :)

I havent insulted you in any way in my comments on this tread like you did to anyone replying here, but would still like to read your thoughts on my post. So pls give some viable way to fix this mistake of no loss problem in KB games.

Did that already. But you read what you like and are blind to the rest.

[Fatt_Shade]

I never did that. In tread title and first post you said no loss is stupid, and all who use it are retarded.

Yes in fact. I earn money from being a professional chess player. So you are professional chess player, not gamer. Join some gaming tournament and see difference between chess game, and expl Starcraft2 match. Gaming and chess playing are very different activities.

Rework/remove overpowered spells, abilities and units, lessen player advantages over enemy armies (pet dragon, spells, skills etc have a far to great impact)
Thank you on so specific answer, and great detail in explaining your ideas. So eloquent and precise.
On lessening player advantage toward enemy units check HoMM3babies mod for Legend and see how there enemy heroes have same or better bonuses as player (like sills bonuses, or equip items). There is no penalty to player, but benefit to AI and computer controlled units, which is great comparing to current situation in WotN.

Just one problem i found in Red sands mod that i didnt like was bonus hp boost when lvling units, it was set to give fixed amount and in game were found 10K+ units stacks of fairies/thorns or any other 1st lvl units with up to 40 hp each = 300-400% bonus, and on other hand 5th lvl units going from 800 to 830 not even 5% boost. So i checked files and fixed so it gives % hp bonus on lvlup (so every unit got same % of hp bonus) and posted my idea on that tread, hopefully some1 might like it and take for his own game. That is specific idea in solving problem about game balance.
Lets see yours ?

[Zechnophobe]

The problem is, for no-loss, at least in AP (WotN will give us more options, like Soothsayers and Warrior Maidens, not to mention that Gift is back...) forced you to ALWAYS use some resurrecting unit... like Paladins, or Inquisitors, or Rune Mages. Problem is, Inquisitors are just a useless unit unless you are fighting undead, and using Paladins in EVERY gameplay gets tedious. Same goes for the droid build. Yes, I've done it once, but I have no desire to do it again.

So I can understand why the new guy says "it's stupid", I do not agree with the way HOW he said that or how he trolled others who disagreed.

It wasn't really necessary to use a ress unit, you could also use spells. The all dragon army worked pretty well, and target + timeback was also very strong. I think the most boring run I did was one where I used the repair droids to the extreme... so not fun.

There isn't any pressure to do no loss in the game. Rather it's fun to see how extreme you can be. And each fight becomes an even more complex puzzle to figure out. One of my favorites was the dragon den on Montero in AP. You could do the fight with like 2 or 3 red and green dragons (killing a few dozen other dragons). Figuring out the right combinations of spells and gear to make impossibly difficult fights, possible, is a huge part of the fun for me.

This is why truly overpowered units (rune mages) and lack of options decreases my enjoyment of the game.

[redsox0717]

You clearly did insult the play style and the people doing it in the first post. You come across as very childish by hating the way others play even though it doesn't affect you in any way.

[tiberiu]

You clearly did insult the play style and the people doing it in the first post. You come across as very childish by hating the way others play even though it doesn't affect you in any way.

Nope. I said it is normal to try to lose no units. I'm sorry for your reading disability.

[Fatt_Shade]

@tiberiu
Nope. I said it is normal to try to lose no units. I'm sorry for your reading disability.

This is same as if I said all players who think no loss is waste of time are stupid and retarded. Did i insult you personally? No, i just said that your way of thinking is stupid and retarded. So yea you did insult all players who go no loss imp game, stop denying it.

Did that already. But you read what you like and are blind to the rest
As for my reading disability and blindness, pls quote post where you gave 1 relevant way of stopping this way of playing. If you referre to this Possible fixes would be to completely remove from the game the spells and abilities that allow such absurdities, and to better balance the creatures. , then you`re not fixing problem but butchering game.
For stopping players from taking 50+ turns in some battle to keep army alive is simple solution, it`s not mine idea but very effective (from HoMM3babies mod), so enlighten us with your solution.

And pls tel me when did I lie in this tread as you indicated in PM.

[BB Shockwave]

It wasn't really necessary to use a ress unit, you could also use spells. The all dragon army worked pretty well, and target + timeback was also very strong. I think the most boring run I did was one where I used the repair droids to the extreme... so not fun.

There isn't any pressure to do no loss in the game. Rather it's fun to see how extreme you can be. And each fight becomes an even more complex puzzle to figure out. One of my favorites was the dragon den on Montero in AP. You could do the fight with like 2 or 3 red and green dragons (killing a few dozen other dragons). Figuring out the right combinations of spells and gear to make impossibly difficult fights, possible, is a huge part of the fun for me.

This is why truly overpowered units (rune mages) and lack of options decreases my enjoyment of the game.

I actually disliked Rune Mages not because they are overpowered- they aren't that much in AP/CW - but because it is an inherently silly concept to power a unit with runes - which are very hard to come by and are needed for the development of your heroes. Thankfully a patch addressed this and reduced the number of runes needed to boost them.

As for spells like Time Back and Resurrection, they are less of an option for a Warrior or Paladin, due to less intellect and mana. I mean - they worked fine for me on Normal, as I could be more lenient when investing runes and equipping items - but on Impossible this would be hard to do. For a Mage, I agree it is an option... I use it myself. :)

Somebody wrote on this forum that developers of wotn did wrong to make it impossible or nearly impossible to do no-loss on impossible difficulty. I'll explain why the whole concept of a no-loss game is retarded and should be discarded quickly.

Yeah, you are SOOOO not insulting anyone there... ;) Seriously, if you are as old as you say you are (for the record, I am 34) and have been around the internet, you should have heard about a little thing called "Netiquette". Basically, if you post anything in such an insulting manner - even if what you say is right, and you meant well - you will be labelled as a troll, because this is exactly what trolls do - creating topics with the intent of drawing people into prolonged, often personal arguments that actually are far-far removed from the original topic. And frankly, your later comments indicate just that - you are going out of your way to simply say "No, I didn't!" to anyone who practically quotes what you said. This looking more and more like the famous "Argument" from Monty Python...

Basically, if one is able to finish a game about huge fights and combats, many labeled as "invincible" and he is able to win without losing anything, this means that the game is unbalanced and poorly designed. Wars have casualties and it's only logical that a fight called "impossible" or "invincible" should in fact be factually impossible to do, otherwise it makes no sense to even call it that way. To be able to win "impossible" fights with no loss is even more stupid.


The game is hardly unbalanced because someone is able to keep the enemy at bay using debuffs and then reviving his lost units while finding clever ways to regenerate mana and rage (Emerald Green Dragons, Fountain of Magic, etc...) Usually at the point you do this, the AI is limited to one-two disabled or slowed troop, out of mana to cast spells, and there is no way it can do anything to stop the player from doing this. But up until this point, the AI fights and works as intended.

You think HOMMIII was unbalanced, too? I remember playing no-loss campaigns myself back in the nineties - using Blind, Slow, or Resurrect. Heck, one campaign in Armageddon's Blade pits you against a throng of Nagas that you can only defeat by cleverly manipulating them with spells like Blind, Slow or Berserk so that they never reach your units. The battle is practically designed this way. It is not a loophole, or not unbalancing.

If you want to see unbalancing, play Age of Wonders II. Even after patches and fan patches, some races are simply waaaay more powerful then others.

[amyndris]

You think HOMMIII was unbalanced, too? I remember playing no-loss campaigns myself back in the nineties - using Blind, Slow, or Resurrect. Heck, one campaign in Armageddon's Blade pits you against a throng of Nagas that you can only defeat by cleverly manipulating them with spells like Blind, Slow or Berserk so that they never reach your units. The battle is practically designed this way. It is not a loophole, or not unbalancing

Heh, I just played this level 2 weeks ago (I was marathoning through all the old HoMM...finished 1, 2+PoL, 3 and am on AB) and due to level layout, I managed to beat it by bouncing them between two chokepoints using Force Field :)

It was something like 7 stacks for 500 Naga Queens.

[tiberiu]

Yeah, you are SOOOO not insulting anyone there... ;) Seriously, if you are as old as you say you are (for the record, I am 34) and have been around the internet, you should have heard about a little thing called "Netiquette". Basically, if you post anything in such an insulting manner - even if what you say is right, and you meant well - you will be labelled as a troll, because this is exactly what trolls do - creating topics with the intent of drawing people into prolonged, often personal arguments that actually are far-far removed from the original topic. And frankly, your later comments indicate just that - you are going out of your way to simply say "No, I didn't!" to anyone who practically quotes what you said. This looking more and more like the famous "Argument" from Monty Python...

How can I insult a CONCEPT, son? I didn't say "everybody who does no-loss is stupid". I EVEN said black on white that it's logical and natural for the player to try and to want to do no loss.

Who is the troll here? Go get your glasses.

clever ways

LOL. If you think killing legions of bear with 1 assassin is clever and that casting mana accelerator+phantom inquisitor obsessively it means you just have a very poor definition for the word "clever".

You think HOMMIII was unbalanced, too?

Yes, and, just as a random fact, most people I know of play with custom rules. Even championships are played with custom rules by people because the game is broken. (Necropolis skeletons overpowerd, Diplomacy hero vs No diplomacy hero =gg, and these are just 2 examples out of dozens)
Heroes 4 was probably the most worthy attempt to make the game balanced and fair. Heroes 5 fixed necromancy but made it possible to beat 100.000 pheonix (lvl7) with only 2 vampires.

I am growing tired of having to explain myself to people in dire need of both logic and strategy courses. The fact remains that Kings Bounty (fun as it is, overall) remains a game that presents no challange whatsoever to expert strategy players. As soon as you put your hands on overpowered spells and units, the game is over. What is the point of playing the game thereafter? To see the SCORE? To see a number on the screen? In a game that is single-player? I find it interesting to analyse scores at the end of online Warcraft 3 games, but in singleplayer not so much.

[Fatt_Shade]

How can I insult a CONCEPT, son?
Go get your glasses.
Again you with calling other people `son` , and accusing all on this tread for bad eyesight. Is there anything we should know about you tiberiu? Like is your father calling you daughter all the time, or you wear jar type of glasses and half blind as bat?

And you DONT have problem with players doing no loss, but call them all stupid and retarded , then accept custom rules for championships but NO for personal play at home. Then asking why is no loss even choice of some players, it just IS. Some ppl get game and right from start google cheats for it, here players invest time to go thru game to see what it offers not for number on screen. As for your Warcraft3 online games i bet you`re real pleasure to play with that personality.

[Pip-Boy]

Guys I don't know why you're still answering to the posts of tiberiu, I just kept reading until I couldn't bear myself to keep reading "son", I won't start a discussion with him/her probably because it would be a waste of both of our times and because nothing that we write is going to change his/her mind.What else can you expect from someone who says that hates noobs and that pro-players like him/her are the ones who make games evolve? Other than that I suggest that some moderator closes this thread.

[Saridu]

I think the thread is still open because a lot of people have opinions regarding the topic.

Tiberiu has been already warned about his offensive and belittling remarks but apparently has taken no heed of Elwin's warning.

Now back to the subject, I have no problem with how anybody else plays the game, its a single player game you can do whatever you want! Some open up the console as soon a the game loads, some spend hours nay days striving for no loss, some love the challenge of hard others prefer easy, that's fine.

I am a little annoyed that the game appears to have been designed to thwart "no loss" as much as possible, its like the devs opened the forums saw all the no loss threads and thought zomg! That's what everybody plays, lets make it as painful as possible! Warrior enemy hero? Who cares, give him poison skull, flame arrow and spectral sword just to kill a low hp unit and force the "no loss" player to reload.

Lets make the first two islands as linear as possible and force navigation scrolls behind quest gates so players can't go exploring and return with a big army. So we gave them the flying horse, that will keep them happy, it doesn't really mean much because they can't get any better units because we populated the islands with as much low hp crap as we can!

That's my gripe, no loss playing style seems to have affected game design. Now I think the other mechanics are really good, classes are better balanced, they tried to capture the nordic setting units are interesting. My problem is the way they are presented.

[blacklegionary]

I think the thread is still open because a lot of people have opinions regarding the topic.

Tiberiu has been already warned about his offensive and belittling remarks but apparently has taken no heed of Elwin's warning.

Now back to the subject, I have no problem with how anybody else plays the game, its a single player game you can do whatever you want! Some open up the console as soon a the game loads, some spend hours nay days striving for no loss, some love the challenge of hard others prefer easy, that's fine.

I am a little annoyed that the game appears to have been designed to thwart "no loss" as much as possible, its like the devs opened the forums saw all the no loss threads and thought zomg! That's what everybody plays, lets make it as painful as possible! Warrior enemy hero? Who cares, give him poison skull, flame arrow and spectral sword just to kill a low hp unit and force the "no loss" player to reload.

Lets make the first two islands as linear as possible and force navigation scrolls behind quest gates so players can't go exploring and return with a big army. So we gave them the flying horse, that will keep them happy, it doesn't really mean much because they can't get any better units because we populated the islands with as much low hp crap as we can!

That's my gripe, no loss playing style seems to have affected game design. Now I think the other mechanics are really good, classes are better balanced, they tried to capture the nordic setting units are interesting. My problem is the way they are presented.

Yeah, my opinion is the same. I don't care if ppl play no loss or not but it's a bad thing if it makes the game become boring.

Compare to previous game, WOTN have much better class balance, and all race get exciting new abilities. The game could be much more fun if the unit distribution is better. In AP we can already see they tried to make "no loss" harder but it's nowhere nearly as bad.

I have finished one playthrough and in the entire game I dont have enough Warrior Maiden to fill my Warrior leadership (I dont care much about other level 4 troop except Viking and Human, but they seem to be very low in number, too). Luckily we will still get a crapload of human troop (Knight, Horseman, Paladin, ArchMage, Rune mage) and they will make up a huge part of your army like the previous game KB:AP despite this game has a Viking theme. Also at late game you will still see a crapload of gray wolf, Hyena, Slinger and all other type of low HP troops. Those with high hp avaiable relatively few in number and sometimes not enough to fill your leadership even if you don't lose any.

Also those Rage skills that are useful at late game avaiable very late, making it's very hard to level them up.

[tiberiu]

Guys I don't know why you're still answering to the posts of tiberiu,

I don't know why YOU took the time, and freely chose to answer to the topic I created. You want this thread closed? Whatever dude, I was just expressing my opinion. I believe in freedom of speech and opinion and dispise censorship.
I offered arguments and received massive flames in return.
"Son" is not an insult, lol. We the elderly sometimes address the youth this way, in a friendly manner. It is not mean to demean or to disconsider somebody.

If you don't like my posts, go set me on your ignore list. I have discovered my ignore list and started to add people there. It's a very useful tool, a powerful weapon that simple users can use to defend from evil people.

[Fatt_Shade]

@tiberiu
Thx for proving me and everyone else here right :
1) all here see that you insulted no loss players, but you still claim you didnt. WRONG
2) I offered arguments and received massive flames in return. You didnt offer arguments, only your observations, but without any suggestion how to fix `problem` as you call no loss play.
3) If you don't like my posts, go set me on your ignore list. I have discovered my ignore list and started to add people there. It's a very useful tool, a powerful weapon that simple users can use to defend from evil people. You want freedom of speech, but deny other players same right, yea this is so american. Any1 not agreeing with you is anarchist and attacking your freedoms, and any1 who agrees with you `here is some candy go play in sandbox and let grownups talk`.
90% posts here about everyones thought on no loss play, and you call them all `evil people`, and add to ignore list. That`s just pathetic.
4) And great way to wuss out, you call me liar and never answer where you got that idea or any proof for it. Then `ill ignore you, stop interacting with me` , what a load of crap. Come on give some fact for your accusations.
It`s not same as playing chessmaster, here your verbal opponents have thoughts of their own and it seems this unhinged your plan of trolling whole forum without getting response from other users.

And as for your wish to never interact with you again dont worry i wont because you have absolutely nothing to contribute to this game, or anything else for that matter.

[Razorflame]

amen to that fatt_shade;)

kinda funny though

u, me, technophobia and IIRC ggdrobrev all tried

but all failed to get him to reason

I remember u guys from the KB:Ap forum and TL where we challenged to do it fastest way to beat the game:)

i only mis loreanangelicus

[themaster]

I was discussing the quality of the product, not it's selling potential. I never suggested that they would make more money if they made the changes to make the game harder so his point is moot. I expressed my opinion that the game is way too easy and my hopes that this might change. in my experience.. the game only being a few days installed.. it's not that easy.. them making you "use" the viking units :)

When I found crossworlds too easy.. I used a mod to harden it up.. but point of fact I just couldn't find "the mod" fun when I tried it last.. so I left it.. :confused:

Because the 1st island was so hard to do "no loss" (WOTN) I lost like 5-20 troops just to get off the island.. if I spent a LONG, LONG time leveling up.. I might have left the first island with no loss.. I just decided it wasn't worth it.. and lost a few troops.. other then that I've been taking no loss wins on every other island.. but there NOT easy in the slightest.. I'm afraid this chess player so far differs in your opinion.. :P

So far I'm enjoying Warriors of the North.. sorry, you can't do the same :P

When games have let me down strategy/challenge wise.. after some time I have used MODS to make them funner/more difficult/challenging to play.. one reason why my modding of "crossworlds" may not have been effective is because I needed to let it "sit" for a while and for the energy to be right.. ;)

As I recall in kings bounty.. the hardest game was being a "mage" so they say.. that's the game I'm playing now with WOTN so you might double-check if your doing the mage thing too ;)

[themaster]

I am a little annoyed that the game appears to have been designed to thwart "no loss" as much as possible, its like the devs opened the forums saw all the no loss threads and thought zomg! That's what everybody plays, lets make it as painful as possible! Warrior enemy hero? Who cares, give him poison skull, flame arrow and spectral sword just to kill a low hp unit and force the "no loss" player to reload.

Lets make the first two islands as linear as possible and force navigation scrolls behind quest gates so players can't go exploring and return with a big army. So we gave them the flying horse, that will keep them happy, it doesn't really mean much because they can't get any better units because we populated the islands with as much low hp crap as we can!Yah, that's exactly why I like the game.. :)

And flying horse early is awesome.. I mean for me.. it stops the whole "evade" units you can't fight thing.. aka you don't get a feel for the ground cause you can fly.. but have to say.. I like it so far.. :P

[themaster]

Yeah, my opinion is the same. I don't care if ppl play no loss or not but it's a bad thing if it makes the game become boring.

Compare to previous game, WOTN have much better class balance, and all race get exciting new abilities. The game could be much more fun if the unit distribution is better. In AP we can already see they tried to make "no loss" harder but it's nowhere nearly as bad.

I have finished one playthrough and in the entire game I dont have enough Warrior Maiden to fill my Warrior leadership (I dont care much about other level 4 troop except Viking and Human, but they seem to be very low in number, too). Luckily we will still get a crapload of human troop (Knight, Horseman, Paladin, ArchMage, Rune mage) and they will make up a huge part of your army like the previous game KB:AP despite this game has a Viking theme. Also at late game you will still see a crapload of gray wolf, Hyena, Slinger and all other type of low HP troops. Those with high hp avaiable relatively few in number and sometimes not enough to fill your leadership even if you don't lose any.

Also those Rage skills that are useful at late game avaiable very late, making it's very hard to level them up.If that's the case..? gotta say.. design is awesome.. least I like it :P

[tiberiu]

in my experience.. the game only being a few days installed.. it's not that easy.. them making you "use" the viking units :)


The start is hard, but the difficulty soon decreases after you get wings and gather all the good stuff lying around, and as soon as you put your hand on decent units from island 2 and 3.;

On first island I nearly died while fighting the necromancer I had a really bad luck with rolls (he rolled high leadership and casted poison skull like crazy every round, with so little leadership that my hero had, I barely won the fight. It felt rewarding when I did, after such a hard battle)

So far I'm enjoying Warriors of the North.. sorry, you can't do the same :P I am enjoying it very much. Bugs are a pain though.

As I recall in kings bounty.. the hardest game was being a "mage" so they say.. that's the game I'm playing now with WOTN so you might double-check if your doing the mage thing too ;)

Mage has a weaker start but by the late game he can be the easiest to play of all. Higher Magic is very powerful. In WotN I think the Warrior (Red) is the weakest one.

[BB Shockwave]

Heh, I just played this level 2 weeks ago (I was marathoning through all the old HoMM...finished 1, 2+PoL, 3 and am on AB) and due to level layout, I managed to beat it by bouncing them between two chokepoints using Force Field :)

It was something like 7 stacks for 500 Naga Queens.

There are two such battles, actually -one has 4 Nagas and 2 Naga Queen stacks, one the 7x500 Naga Queens - obviously the latter is the harder battle. :) And yes, this is probably one of the few times when Force Field comes in handy as an useful spell! :D

[BB Shockwave]

How can I insult a CONCEPT, son? I didn't say "everybody who does no-loss is stupid". I EVEN said black on white that it's logical and natural for the player to try and to want to do no loss.

Don't call me "son". Even if you are 50, which I doubt. I am 34.

Who is the troll here? Go get your glasses.

I have them on, thank you very much (contacts are just... weird). I directly quote your post: I discourage people to cry so much about how they can't do No loss in WOTN. Get more strategy. - by this, you imply people who do no loss don't know strategy... and a few paragraphs above, you call the concept of no loss "retarded".
And then you continue to call people "son" in a derogatory manner, even after multiple people explained to you how this is condescending.

Only a troll does that. You are well aware of what you are doing - please go on and continue, if you like, but we all know the reason you started this thread is not to provide any advice to the developers, but to troll the no-loss veterans of the game, and get your kicks by annoying people. Why that amuses some people, I have no idea, I'd find it poor entertainment, but you do obviously enjoy it since you take so much time to reply and insult every single person who replied to you...

I do recommend a place called 4chan for you... they'd welcome you with open arms.

[tiberiu]

I have them on, thank you very much (contacts are just... weird). I directly quote your post: I discourage people to cry so much about how they can't do No loss in WOTN. Get more strategy. - by this, you imply people who do no loss don't know strategy...


No son. Quite the contrary in fact, but you need logical understanding to grasp this. How many classess of school do you have?

And then you continue to call people "son" in a derogatory manner, even after multiple people explained to you how this is condescending.

I am talking in a friendly manner. Didn't you ever hear priests or elder people talk like this?

Only a troll does that. You are well aware of what you are doing - please go on and continue, if you like, but we all know the reason you started this thread is not to provide any advice to the developers, but to troll the no-loss veterans of the game, and get your kicks by annoying people. Why that amuses some people, I have no idea, I'd find it poor entertainment, but you do obviously enjoy it since you take so much time to reply and insult every single person who replied to you...

I did nothing of the like, you are a liar. And I am not payed by Katauri to get their games right. However I reported some bugs myself.You can report my posts if you think that, there are moderators who will take care of this. No need to rant son.

I do recommend a place called 4chan for you... they'd welcome you with open arms.

And I recommend a university for you and some logic books. Time to update my ignore list..

[hrafn]

Do a no-loss game with no reloads. Then I'll be impressed.

[Zechnophobe]

Do a no-loss game with no reloads. Then I'll be impressed.

No reload challenges can be fun too, though combining with no-loss is pretty frustrating. The idea that you'd have to start the game over just for having some mage cast fire arrow at a bad time is... ugh.

[sethmage]

From the moment I saw the topic I knew this will drag along quite nicely, but overall you guys have to admit the moderators are pretty laid back here: people justifying pirating the game on the official forum, luck of respect for fellow player/poster, … yeah the more things change the more stay the same.
So let me put 2 cents here: I chose to buy the game and after hard day at work I will chose to go no-loss on impossible (well I will try it:)) and I don’t give a damn what everybody else is thinking. Everybody is entitled to their opinions; there is a matter how you come across with it.

[Fatt_Shade]

@zechnofobe
No reload challenges can be fun too, though combining with no-loss is pretty frustrating. The idea that you'd have to start the game over just for having some mage cast fire arrow at a bad time is... ugh.
Restart game , why ? You have autosave in castles, and after traveling to new islands. No need to new game, just reload last autosave from getting to island you are currently at.

[sethmage]

@ Fatt_Shade – cue words here are: no reloads of any kind.

How about new challenge: turn off monitor!

[oas]

Some achievements are only available if you lose units (at least one).

[Razorflame]

Do a no-loss game with no reloads. Then I'll be impressed.

ok easy with droid (with the mod with all units at start)

split repaird droids into 2 stacks and use a guard droid

and gg no re
easy victory you don't ever have to worry about losses:D

esp vs undead lmao

they suck so badly vs droid
slow speed/low damage/no poison effects

;)

[tiberiu]

ok easy with droid (with the mod with all units at start)

You mean... easy, with cheats. Right. :rolleyes: Even easier with a mod to make all your units invulnerable I think, and for battles to automatically win themselves in round 1.

[tiberiu]

From the moment I saw the topic I knew this will drag along quite nicely, but overall you guys have to admit the moderators are pretty laid back here: people justifying pirating the game on the official forum, luck of respect for fellow player/poster, … yeah the more things change the more stay the same.
So let me put 2 cents here: I chose to buy the game and after hard day at work I will chose to go no-loss on impossible (well I will try it:)) and I don’t give a damn what everybody else is thinking. Everybody is entitled to their opinions; there is a matter how you come across with it.

Yea, I get you. But what's wrong with justifying piracy anyway? You have to test your car before you buy it, right? Just to make sure it works, that it... it doesn't have, you know.. bugs. :D

As for the lack of respect. Everybody gets as much respect as they deserve.

I tried to do no-loss too, but the Necromancer nearly killed all my units, which was a happy encounter for me.

What I argued here was something different then what most understood - and I am responsible for what I write, not for what the less intelectually inclined understand. For the 1000th time, it is perfectly OK for the player of the game to TRY to not lose any units. The fact that the Game lets him be successful in this is the problem. A problem of difficulty. What is the point of calling a difficulty "Impossible", if it can be done without ever losing even a single unit the whole game? The problem is that this is hugely boring for anybody who wants a true, real, hard challange. Being able to do no-loss whole game just proves the game is extremely easy. Absurdly easy - not to mention they give you infinite money, infinite xp, infinite crystals and runes.

[Razorflame]

You mean... easy, with cheats. Right. :rolleyes: Even easier with a mod to make all your units invulnerable I think, and for battles to automatically win themselves in round 1.

I already done a no loss on first island with all chars so what are you complaining when i restart and just have all units?

i'm not gonna try a 100 times again just for a good RNG and luck that the black knight and the necromancer don't cast any damaging spells on my real units

and when u pass that you have hundres of battles left killing undead with a 80% consistent viking army? i've done that so many times u will use something to change the game (and the all units mod isn't a real cheat anyway

you still need the money/leadership in the beginning (which isn't infite by then)

it becomes infinite when u have a strong stack already in your army


and why in fucks name would you call a no loss stupid if it's possible? There are alot of ways to win a war and some don't have casualties you just have to be smart and outhink your opponent

Why else would there be ambushes in real combat
mines which are hidden they only cause casualties on the other side
airstrikes etc etc

if you have the better tech and skills you will win a war without a lot of casualties of even without casualties

[tiberiu]

I already done a no loss on first island with all chars so what are you complaining when i restart and just have all units?


No need to get angry and use bad language son. I am not complaining, but the discussion was about a challange. You came out and said "oh yes I can do that, using mods" and I just pointed out that cheating doesn't mean you complete the challange.

i'm not gonna try a 100 times again just for a good RNG and luck that the black knight and the necromancer don't cast any damaging spells on my real units

Nobody is forcing you do do anything. I find it weird how can you enjoy bad AI. When the knight and the necromancer cast damaging spells on your units, they are playing well. I guess some enjoy weaker challanges. Like playing chess with an opponent that has no queen. Good for you, but don't force your opinions on others.

and when u pass that you have hundres of battles left killing undead with a 80% consistent viking army? i've done that so many times u will use something to change the game (and the all units mod isn't a real cheat anyway)

Of course it's a cheat :) Because you give yourself advantages in unfair ways. Having access to all units in the game right from the start is something that qualifies as unfair advantage, regardless of any other BS about how you "still need money" - which is in more then enough quantity anyway, and about how you "still need leadership" - because you just don't compare the same amount of leadership worth of paladins with the same amount of leadership worth of peasants. Unleass you enjoy cheating, which is obvious that you do.

and why in fucks name would you call a no loss stupid if it's possible? There are alot of ways to win a war and some don't have casualties you just have to be smart and outhink your opponent

So why do I call stupid the fact that It is possible to do something that is described as Impossible/Invincible? um,. because.. it is? Beating 1000 bears with 1 royal snake is stupid in my opinion and it is my birthright to express my opinion, even if you or anybody else dislikes that.

[Razorflame]

well if u completed first island with all chars what is next to do?

killing the spider boss? ez too if u get trolls


then what?

then i use mods wotn is the most boring part of KB countless of undead fights -.-

and to be honest i find it so amusing you saying oh something is impossible to it should be impossible lmao


if all people would think like that we would still live in the stone age rofl

[Nevar]

I would just like to chime in on cheating.

I don't believe there is anything incredibly wrong with cheating in single player. I play with mods on other games like Skyrim and Fallout all the time, some of which arguably make the game easier. However, when I do that, it's because of quality-of-life reasons. e.g. I am scared to death of rats, so I installed a mod for making rats run away instead of fighting me. In a similar vein, I modded New Vegas so I had more inventory space, because walking back and forth to a safe storage or even just swapping equipment with npc companions is annoying and takes away from my satisfaction.

In a similar vein, having more units available at the start of WotN is because the first four islands are just REALLY ANNOYING to do with Vikings. I played through that once already. I'm not going to do it again on a new playthrough.

Cheating on competitive multiplayer games on the other hand, is just wrong, since you're taking away from the enjoyment of others by having an unfair advantage against them, which can ruin the experience for them.

[sethmage]

What is the point of calling a difficulty "Impossible", if it can be done without ever losing even a single unit the whole game? The problem is that this is hugely boring for anybody who wants a true, real, hard challange. Being able to do no-loss whole game just proves the game is extremely easy. Absurdly easy - not to mention they give you infinite money, infinite xp, infinite crystals and runes.

I love that sentence, and the answer is simple, it’s all about proving how good you are and bragging rights, besides impossible sounds better than really hard
Yea, I get you. But what's wrong with justifying piracy anyway? You have to test your car before you buy it, right? Just to make sure it works, that it... it doesn't have, you know.. bugs. :D


oh don’t get me wrong, I won’t confirm nor deny my piracy activities,;) I just find it amusing that somebody obtains game/movie/song by “illegal” means then will complain to developers/producers about quality of their products.

[Bhruic]

Yea, I get you. But what's wrong with justifying piracy anyway? You have to test your car before you buy it, right?

Just to check, do you often steal a car to "test" if it works? :P

[Zechnophobe]

Just to check, do you often steal a car to "test" if it works? :P

I think the issue is more like "Do you ACTUALLY buy the game if you like it?" This isn't really the place to discuss piracy, and the topic is pretty complex anyway. But I think it is often fallacious to think you are just previewing a game. That would be fine, if you actually purchased the game once you knew you liked it. But it is rarely true.

[Bhruic]

I think the issue is more like "Do you ACTUALLY buy the game if you like it?" This isn't really the place to discuss piracy, and the topic is pretty complex anyway. But I think it is often fallacious to think you are just previewing a game. That would be fine, if you actually purchased the game once you knew you liked it. But it is rarely true.

True. I was mostly picking fun at the idea of "testing" a car. When you test drive a car, you get permission from the dealer to do that. You don't just walk into the lot, hop in a car and drive away. That's what makes it a pretty bad analogy for the whole piracy angle. If the developers gave permission for people to play for a bit for free, then it might work.

[sethmage]

If the developers gave permission for people to play for a bit for free, then it might work.
But they do, how many times you can see on steam games for free play test for the week-end, last Friday to Sunday I think you could test drive Left 4 Dead 2

[Bhruic]

Oh, sure, some do. And downloading and playing the game at that point would, obviously, be perfectly acceptable.

[Fatt_Shade]

@sethmage
oh don’t get me wrong, I won’t confirm nor deny my piracy activities, I just find it amusing that somebody obtains game/movie/song by “illegal” means then will complain to developers/producers about quality of their products.
But no matter if some1 buy or get game/movie/song legal or illegal from that point on that user is game advertiser and marketing agent. If product is good he will probably have positive mark for it in interaction with other possible customers. But in this case buy or piracy game is swarming with bugs and errors, so your way of getting it wont influence your mark. Game will get bad review no matter if you buy, borrow from friend his laptop with game installed or steal it by piracy.

But they do, how many times you can see on steam games for free play test for the week-end, last Friday to Sunday I think you could test drive Left 4 Dead 2
Ok this is true, and some game studios invite for beta test, and free license keys, but in case of KB-WotN this wasnt case and i think iif it was many of this game problems wouldnt be here now cause i`m sure many would be caught before releasing it like it is now. So 1C messed up in this case.

[langtu87]

I must agree with tiberiu about the KB is easy game, even for impossible level. I think developer should make more diffculty level, the enemy hero should prefer cast damage spell to low level unit insteads of some negative spell like slow, bad luck...,resurect spell or resurect ability need have limit for using times per battle, I want win a hard battle with no-loss after so many try with many diffrent strategy, not win because AI randomly make bad move.
After enjoy KB TL, when I play KB AP and KB CW, I feel boring when at mid game, because in this stage, I can get all kind of unit, spell, the battle become too easy if you know some bug (I think some strategy who make you get rage/mana infinity are bug, not strategy;).
I will really enjoy the game if at every stage of the game, I alway need think a strategy to get over it. (IMO, KBCW is too easy and boring because you can get powerful unit at first island, rune mage too poweful, you only need 2,3 strategy and unit combo to win this game at impossible
When I play KB, I enjoy when I win a hard battle, not for a perfect end game.

[gempepaine]

You don't have to worry about no loss games anymore.
You know that first fight with Guilford ,when he cast armaggedon at the end of the battle ? Those troops are counted as casualties on the final score.
Was a little disappointed after 32 h of gameplay without losing a single troop.

[ckdamascus]

You don't have to worry about no loss games anymore.
You know that first fight with Guilford ,when he cast armaggedon at the end of the battle ? Those troops are counted as casualties on the final score.
Was a little disappointed after 32 h of gameplay without losing a single troop.

Oh wow, so the only way to do it is to win with level 5s or black dragons + astral mail, crown of the prince, etc.

Although, I think no-loss is a bit overkill but thanks for the heads up!

[Razorflame]

You don't have to worry about no loss games anymore.
You know that first fight with Guilford ,when he cast armaggedon at the end of the battle ? Those troops are counted as casualties on the final score.
Was a little disappointed after 32 h of gameplay without losing a single troop.

should still be doable
like said above
level 5 with some extra+res
from skills and items

[Fatt_Shade]

No loss is almost always doable.
You don't have to worry about no loss games anymore.You know that first fight with Guilford ,when he cast armaggedon at the end of the battle ?
What are enemy controlling spells for ? Blind , sheep, fear, etc ... You disable his last troop and revive your army, then finish battle. End of story.

[Nirual]

What are enemy controlling spells for ? Blind , sheep, fear, etc ... You disable his last troop and revive your army, then finish battle. End of story.

Not in that instance, because the battle ends right after. Guilford gets to cast the spell after he has already lost technically.

[Xargon]

You can't prevent the damage from that armageddon, but I remember that he apparently was not very bright (it did pretty low damage, not sure how much exactly because I do not care about no-loss). So maybe even lvl4 creatures with high hp will not lose a unit? (and you can always cast stuff like peacefulness, ice prison, last hero, etc)

[BB Shockwave]

I must agree with tiberiu about the KB is easy game, even for impossible level. I think developer should make more diffculty level, the enemy hero should prefer cast damage spell to low level unit insteads of some negative spell like slow, bad luck...

Umm, that'd not make the game more difficult. It'd make it more annoying for people who want to do no-loss games, yes... but for those who don't care, it'd be a blessing if the enemy hero wasted damage spells on low-leve cannon fodder instead of more useful spells.

No son. Quite the contrary in fact, but you need logical understanding to grasp this. How many classess of school do you have?

And I recommend a university for you and some logic books. Time to update my ignore list..

I'm a biologist with far more education that you'll ever get (considering that in your country, "high-school" is considered a high achievment), and I am guessing you are a 15-year old who gets his kicks from insulting people.