How to revive sales and save this great game.

[He111]

Ok, I've been thinking long and hard .. ok, short and soft, about why CLOD didn't sell like the original IL2 and have come up with a few ideas.

From my experience, the original IL2 was a success in Russia first, promoting a forgotten arena. Once word got around gaming / sim communities that IL2 was a quality game, it quickly became a success in the west as well. This happened in booming world economy when gamers had money.

It's successor has had a totally different experience. Many die-hard IL2 fans were disappointed with it's build quality once released, other fans couldn't wait for long release date or were financially crippled by the GFC.

So how can CLOD / BOM be a financial success? I still thinks it's possible, it has high quality models and excellent destruction details so can be a quality sim. 1C needs to redefine who their target market is.

(1) Change target audience from average gamers (younger) to middle age flight sim lovers - generally people in the aircraft industry or similar. These people are generally financially better off and are more familar with a WW2 setting.

(2) Don't reduce prices of CLOD nor BOM to gain sales, guarantee BOM is stable on release and price it accordingly. Older professional people will pay for quality.

(3) Re-release CLOD with BOM as a "Battle of Moscow / Battle of Britain / Spanish Civil War" triple combo, but only after the games are stable.

(5) Advertise the game in Aircraft / pilot professional magazines, targeting this professional potential new market.

(6) Once CLOD / BOM can gain a small professional client base, it can look to a wider gaming audience once economic times improve.

Just a few t houghts ...

.

[SlipBall]

Its the internet man!...bad press ruined the sales, in the end many complaints were system related.

[hiro]

actually what IL-2 series did was simple.

be the best and stand out . . . push the boundaries of what we simmers had.

and in a time where everyone else's ish worked and didn't have too many glitches.

And the price was the same as the lesser sims


I remember the wow factor we all had when I'd bought the game and threw it on the best machine we had on the shop. This guy who wasn't even into sims but was a hardcore gamer, "I'm not into this but damn I could get into this." Also was the comment of a console purist, "You to me on the graphics. That IL-2 russian game looks real. You PC guys always get us on the graphics. %!@#!"

some others

1) it was one of the best quality games available and although its hardware req's were legendary, hardware prices fluctuated . . .

I remember its flight model was smooth and dynamic. The effects were normal but I remember the ballistic physics was well done. The a standout game that had bullet realism was Max Payne due to the bullet time feature in it(which people later used to recreate Matrix mods that had the effects from the movies).

Other flight sims had gotten the bullet trajectory and timing but there was some aspect or feature missing, but IL-2 nailed it well close or long range . . .

they also had lesser known / weird planes that the hardcore peeps liked.

It had the most complete features of a flight combat sim. FM, DM, physics etc . . . and it looked awesomely gorgeous.



2) it came out around (i think the tail end) of the golden era for ww2 and close era sims, IIRC they had games like MiG Alley, this uber flying fortress game, a few good European Theaters, so the competition was there.

3) online gaming had started.

4) it required killer hardware but in that era I remember a top of the line $500 nvidia card would be $250 in a month, it was that era where you could wait a few months and prices for hardware would drop because the latest and greatest was out in a few weeks.

I used to work a PC chopshop and they used to give away 6 mo old towers, hardware . . . man I had all these awesome franken PC's that still work today . . .

Good times back then. :D

[lokitexas]

Its too late to "revive" sales. Word is out....and has been out. CLoD was, and is still bugged game. Bottom line.

IL2 fans, like myself, bit the bullet and bought it even though it was not up to par in hopes that it would be "fixed".

Right here right now, it still isnt. And the post from MG "Sorry CLoD is broken, and needs fixes, and features that were left out are not coming back in....but buy our sequel and we will fix ALL the issues!" is a very lame attempt, and slap in the face to the people that bought CLoD.

I know for me personally, as well as many others, respect and faith in anything coming out in the future from these folks will be an afterthought. New screenies, and talks about BOM seem like another CLoD attempt.

Too many chances, too many promises, too many disappointments. I hate to say it, but I think the success of this franchise moving forward is very....very slim.

[CrazySchmidt]

This series has about as much chance now as a "Duke Nukem Forever" sequel.

[HorrorRoach]

I think they should abandon BOM and FINISH CLOD... A 99% bug free game with a few more flyables would be free advertising...

[Chivas]

Sales of COD don't really matter any more, even if it were perfect I doubt it would have covered the long developments costs. The sales of the Sequel matter. If in the next year or two the development finishes the game engine, features, the Sequel will sell. Maybe not enough to recoup all the development costs, but more than enough to secure the future. With a working game engine and features the development will be able to quickly pump out new Theaters for another ten years that should make the series very profitable. Not to mention other revenue stream like MMO's and movie making, as the game engine and features evolve over the years.

[Chivas]

I think they should abandon BOM and FINISH CLOD... A 99% bug free game with a few more flyables would be free advertising...

Are you going to cover the further development costs, no one else will, as COD sales are FINISHED.

[MadBlaster]

I thought in game industry you can make more money on volume sales using the existing online mid level pc gaming market as the target audience. If the software developer optimizes the game to “that” pc. Doing so, the pc cost to the user now becomes a “sunk” cost. There is no (or if there is , it is greatly reduced) cost for a pc upgrade because the game was optimized by the developer to a pc level that segment of the market already owns. However, to the flight sim newbie, there is still likely a unique differential hardware cost in terms of game controllers (e.g., head tracking, joystick, rudder peddals, headset...etc.). But even that can be minimized. 1C could partnership with companies like logitech or thrustmaster, for example, to come up with a plug and play hardware solution sold as a package with the game to meet all the gameplay requirements of the game for like $100-$150 bucks. So now your talking hurdle cost for the newbie of the game itself of $50 plus $150 for the hardware to play it. I think with that, there is volume potential, and more profit? You also now have your hardware partners backing you up. The more game you sell, the more hardware they sell and your advertising costs are now shared and is lower? You and your partners are now all advertising together because your interests are the same, sell as much copies of the game as possible. It is a given, the game has to be good, because you have competition in the target audience (rof, wop,etc.) and other genres of games as well . It has to be optimized to perform exceptionally well on the target PC without question. It has to have good gameplay. It has to be supported by the developer and has a timeline for expansion (new theaters, enhancements) for additional future revenues and to hold the interest of the players. Also, as side thought, I think it would be good if 1C had an official dedicated server to stay in touch first hand with the needs of the game and its users. Also, I think online gameplay and popularity could be enhanced with the introduction of virtual money/reward system via team based achievements in online gameplay used to buy better planes and loadouts for online wars between teams on the given server. The game integrity has to be maintained. Hacks, cheats, unfair scoring systems, complex and long setup times to make the game work correctly (e.g., mapping controls), hardware incompatibility, etc. These historical problems need to be closed out because they kill gameplay and interest. It needs to be a hassle free experience. At the same time, it should be realistic, competitive, ww2 historical, informative, intriguing and fun. It has to offer more than the gaming platforms (ps3, xbox, apple i phones...etc.) It has to offer a uniqueness different than the more popular types of genres (e.g., world of warcraft). You don’t want the mid level market gamers playing those games. You want them to play your game. So look at the strengths and attractions of their games and see if some of those qualities can be brought over to your game to make it even more unique and attractive to a larger segment of the mid level pc gamer market. What makes a player obsess over a game? How can you turn a non-player into a online ww2 flight sim player? A very good, interesting and complex game, fully supported by the develper at an affordable hurdle cost with good advertising for volume sales and profit? Maybe. I don’t know if this is possible. CloD probably did damage to rep. So whatever happened last May with 1C management, that evidently was the turning point. A fresh slate. Too bad we all had to wait 5 months to learn the truth form Luthier. Hopefully it was a well thought out long term plan and change in direction. Optimize the BOM game to the mid level pc every 3 years in sync with the expansions. So, performance is always improving, graphics is improving, but you stay in your mid level target audience for volume sales. Jmho.

[ATAG_Snapper]

@He111: Concept makes sense. If CoD/BoM/whatever went ultra premium FM/DM, graphics, gameplay, cockpits (think: DCS P51D detail & quality), Net Code etc etc.....

This would appeal to a high end target group, with the means to procure cutting edge PC's & peripherals. Look what people pay for FSX + dozen's addons/plugins. Marketing is key, community contact/feedback as well.

Interesting thought, He111.

[ATAG_Doc]

Great post 111. I like your ideas!

[regen70]

Is there any information on how many copies have been sold? I read a few years ago that the IL2 series sold 600,000 in Russia and the same in the rest of the world. How do CoD sales compare?

[Anders_And]

How about communication with the customers? Rise of flight has it and that game is still going strong!

[310_cibule]

(1) Change target audience from average gamers (younger) to middle age flight sim lovers - generally people in the aircraft industry or similar. These people are generally financially better off and are more familar with a WW2 setting.

Is this target - I mean us, middle age COMBAT flight sim lovers - big enough to make such a huge project pay off?

No idea about Russia or China (pirate's copies prevails there I presume) but the rest of the world deliver some thousands souls of this kind (as far as I can quess from popular server s like SimHQ etc.) Twenty, fifty?

Does anybody have an idea how much the costs are to develop, create, promote and keep such a sofisticated game alive for some years?

Can we compare the costs with potential gains talking about the market you suggested?

[zander]

http://starcitizen.robertsspaceindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/chart.jpg

[GraveyardJimmy]

-salary picture-

Those are probably based on American development studios though, I expect labour costs are different in the Russian job market (though I am only speculating).

Luthier did mention it was difficult to find competent programmers.

[addman]

1. Make it a free-to-play online MMO with micro-transactions and/or DLC if you want a lot of people to play.

2. Make it the traditional "hardcore historical accuracy accurate FM's flightsim way" and very few will buy it.

Basically, if you want BoM to sell you can't make it the traditional way. Too expensive to develop it especially when you consider potential sales. I don't like that it is this way and I bet few fans of the il-2 series does either but it's the harsh reality. Casual PC gamers (those who play Crysis, Skyrim, Torchlight etc.) don't pick up hardcore sims anymore, not in general anyway.

I think if you are expecting things to be the way they used to be, you should really think again. Even the biggest publishers with the biggest game franchises are being "forced" to go free-to-play with micro-transaction because let's face it, a lot of people like to play games but they can't afford each 50€ game that is released. They prioritize, do I want to buy this obscure Russian developed flightsim or do I want this critically acclaimed and awesome triple-A action/adventure game for my 50€? I'd say most gamers will go for the latter and those very gamers are needed for this franchise to survive and prosper. It doesn't help if you bought 3 copies of CLoD if only a few tens of thousands have been sold.

If you have a free-to-play model you can at least say, "hey! just try it out for free to see if you like it". At least then there's a chance to hook new recruits. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe our little core community is enough to sustain further hardcore WWII flight games but even if that's the case, I bet those bean-counters we keep hearing about all the time wants to see their investment grow and not stagnate.

[BlackSix]

http://starcitizen.robertsspaceindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/chart.jpg

This is ridiculous. Salaries are 3-4 times smaller in similar positions in the gaming industry in Russia.

[310_cibule]

That makes sense to me, addman

[OB1]

http://starcitizen.robertsspaceindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/chart.jpg

Chris Roberts will hire a capable dev team to make 'Star Citizen'... these are his figures to make a decent game.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Chris Roberts will hire a capable dev team to make 'Star Citizen'... these are his figures to make a decent game.

Ouch! Body shot!

[zander]

This is ridiculous. Salaries are 3-4 times smaller in similar positions in the gaming industry in Russia.

Really?
You have programmers who work for $20k?
That's rather depressing, I'd leave the country ASAP.


Luthier did mention it was difficult to find competent programmers.

lol, no wonder.

[BlackSix]

Really?
You have programmers who work for $20k?
That's rather depressing, I'd leave the country ASAP.

Yes, 28-33K is a normal salary for the average programmer in Russia.

[Toni74]

Really?
That's rather depressing, I'd leave the country ASAP.

:facepalm:

[Force10]

bad press ruined the sales, in the end many complaints were system related.


LOL! Thanks Slip...I haven't laughed that hard in awhile. Yes...many of the hard core flight sim crowd "forgot" how to use a computer and what it takes to run a flight sim.<sigh>

Bad press didn't ruin the sales....it's the worst release in flight sim history that caused the sales to be bad. The bad press was(and still is) justified.

[Stirwenn]

+1

[Robert]

How about communication with the customers? Rise of flight has it and that game is still going strong!

RoF's commnication was exceedigly poor until Jason became involved. Not sure if it's a cultural thing or a business difference between countries.

[SlipBall]

Yes, 28-33K is a normal salary for the average programmer in Russia.

I have read its much cheaper to live in Russia, not taxed to death.

LOL! Thanks Slip...I haven't laughed that hard in awhile. Yes...many of the hard core flight sim crowd "forgot" how to use a computer and what it takes to run a flight sim.<sigh>

Bad press didn't ruin the sales....it's the worst release in flight sim history that caused the sales to be bad. The bad press was(and still is) justified.


Your welcome, but think back a minute, people like to read reviews on-line before buying. Not saying the game didn't need work. I'm convinced Steam was a big part of the game freezing up.

[BlackSix]

I have read its much cheaper to live in Russia, not taxed to death.

Yes, it's a good money even for the life in Moscow.

[priller26]

It didnt sell well because it was universally panned and they are still diddling around with fixing things a year and a half down the road, creating new problems as they fix old one. Why should this surprise anyone but fanboys?
I LOVE a good flight sim....but the operative word is "good". This thing has just worn me out..Im done with it for now.

[Stealth_Eagle]

I think another possible idea would be to have 2 games rather than 1. One is the free to play MMO with payed additional features (similar to World of Tanks or something like that) and the other, hard core simmers for the middle aged person and some exceptions (like me, probably the youngest long term IL-2 pilot :grin: (insert self depressing comment about how only two of his real life friends have tried this game)).

This way, the MMO can fund the hard core half of it and will therefore deliver us a better simulator for the long term. :cool:

A long time lurker,
Eagle

P.S. Sorry if I offend anyone, I was trying not to.

[OB1]

I think another possible idea would be to have 2 games rather than 1. One is the free to play MMO with payed additional features (similar to World of Tanks or something like that) and the other, hard core simmers for the middle aged person and some exceptions (like me, probably the youngest long term IL-2 pilot :grin: (insert self depressing comment about how only two of his real life friends have tried this game)).

This way, the MMO can fund the hard core half of it and will therefore deliver us a better simulator for the long term. :cool:

A long time lurker,
Eagle

P.S. Sorry if I offend anyone, I was trying not to.

That may work under normal circumstances but in this case, why would anyone want 2 broken games ?

This thread is pointless. The only way to make this a great game, make money, make this a success is either come close to, meet or exceed expectations and right now they're still trying to find their butts with both hands.

There is no real nice way to put it, this is life this is business and they screwed the pooch. So the only way out of this is either they build a big ladder or bridge depending which metaphor you like best and climb out or get over it OR fill the hole while their still in it.

Its getting to the point where people don't really care which way it goes its just getting to painful to be stuck in limbo, either fix it or **** it.

[Jam656es]

These people are generally financially better off and are more familar with a WW2 setting.
http://www.rdox.info/01.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/02.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/8.jpghttp://www.rdox.info/9.jpg
http://www.rdox.info/0.jpg

[Lurker_71]

If this were a great game, it wouldn't need saving.

Hopefully the sequel will be different.

[priller26]

If this were a great game, it wouldn't need saving.

Hopefully the sequel will be different.


If past performance is an indicator of the future, I wouldn't hold your breath on the sequel being any better. I'm still rather annoyed that after all this time we are nothing more than beta/alpha testers. Obviously no one put a gun to my head to "test" this game for the past umptenth months, however, it's become old and frustrating.

[gpang788]

Actually, I have no idea what all these fuss about an unfinished product is all about.

People who buy the game and then later whine about it are just being real petty and immature imho..

I have been an ardent supporter of IL2 since day 1 so many years ago.

Sure there are a few bugs here and there but I never let it dampen or affect my enjoyment of the game and I seriously thank God there is even such a sim like IL2 / COD out there for us to even play in the 1st place and I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with it being in whatever unfinished stage its in.

Perhaps a better question would be to ask ourselves what other WW2 sims are there out there? None I suppose?

What other WW2 sims are there with developers with this phenomenal level of commitment and dedication to WW 2 sim aviation? None.

FSX doesnt cut it. Xplane is too diverse. FC is a modern sim. ROF is in a different era.

What other options are there for WW2 simming? Absolutely none.

Of cos, some might argue that a lack of options shouldn't be the only reason they should put up with such nonsense. I for one, am just truly thankful COD even exists in the 1st place and to continue to be able to play it just makes me happy

Lets all be patient and give them enough time. Things will work out for the better.

In the words of Frank Zappa, "Shut up and play your guitar!!"

Btw, my mum also once told me "too much whining makes you impotent young man!! :mrgreen:.."

Long live this sim!

[He111]

If this were a great game, it wouldn't need saving.

Hopefully the sequel will be different.

I think you mean "If this weren't a great game, it wouldn't need saving"

They've put alot of time and effort into quality models with quality destruction details, pity small bugs are destroying what should be another classic .. and financial success (once word-of-mouth gets around).

Allowing users to add their own content (starting with altered current models - Blenhiem fighter, Ju88 fighter, P-96 (http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/archive/airfix-2011-special-what-if-gb-drtemplar-s-boulton-paul-p96__o_t__t_29885.html), etc etc would also make CLOD-BOM "THE" and "ONLY" flight sim to have ! :grin:

.

[icarus]

If past performance is an indicator of the future, I wouldn't hold your breath on the sequel being any better. I'm still rather annoyed that after all this time we are nothing more than beta/alpha testers. Obviously no one put a gun to my head to "test" this game for the past umptenth months, however, it's become old and frustrating.

+1

[Lurker_71]

I think you mean "If this weren't a great game, it wouldn't need saving"



No. I mean, had CloD been a great game, it would have sold more than enough copies and not need fans fearing its demise and posting forum threads titled "how to revive sales and saves this great:rolleyes: game." Hopefully, the sequel will not need this sort of desperate measures to save it and do great from the outset.

[MadTommy]

Good reviews is what is needed.

Is it possible to get Steam to re review a title? The 60 score is not a good one for sales, 80+ is needed.

[Wolf_Rider]

I thought in game industry you can make more money on volume sales using the existing online mid level pc gaming market as the target audience. ~



That's the approach Oleg took






This would appeal to a high end target group, with the means to procure cutting edge PC's & peripherals. Look what people pay for FSX + dozen's addons/plugins. Marketing is key, community contact/feedback as well.



and giving (by comparison) unfair advantage

[SKUD]

Yes, 28-33K is a normal salary for the average programmer in Russia.

In 2003 -2006 when I was there the salaries were much lower. I saw them rise dramatically more than 100% in 3 years.They are still going up, unlike our western economies.

[He111]

I was getting paid about A$50,000 back in 1995, contractors alot more. This kept going up until companies said enough is enough and we were outsourced to India and China, needless to say many lost their jobs - me included. Thankfully i had my hobby of sharetrading to takeover. Sharetrading isn't as mentally stressful as C++ :grin:

.