bullet types effects changed-strange results!

[David198502]

hey guys!

it seems, that with the beta patches, now the effects of different bullet types have changed and give some strange results...and it seems to be more likely to be a unintentional bug, or mabye some details were cut out, instead of beeing improved...
yeah i know david is whining again...but
we as a squad have tested this now for two whole days(both days several hours) on a lobby server.

first of all: 109s now seem to catch fire after a birst of about 1-2 seconds every time, regardless of the type of ammunition.

b-Beobachtung doesnt have any effect at all anymore except on a 109.for testing purposes i have set the server to unlimited ammo.i put in my MGs only B-Beobachtung bullets, and tried to shoot a squadmate who was sitting first in a spit, then hurri, and then in a 109.

the spit showed no damage at all, even after 5minutes of continuous bursts.after that we gave up, and my squadmate crashed on purpose...the surprising part was, that the server stated only that he crashed, and not that i shot him....i did no damage to him whatsoever

in the hurri it was exact the same outcome...no damage whatsoever

in the 109....two seconds burst and it went up in flames, burning the pilot to death!got credit for the kill.

this definitely changed, as B-Beobachtung was very effective before the beta patches.it was not only showing where you placed your bullets, but also was very effective in shooting off elevators and ailerons, as well as it seemed to be effective to set things on fire...engines of bombers for example.
(note: im not sure with which beta it changed, but i assume, that it was with the first one already...as we as a squad noticed that we cant set spitfires on fire anymore,....or only very very rarely)

if you put only B-Beobachtung in your spitfire loadout, then it will have no effect either, not even on the 109!

then we tried to put all sorts of bullet types into the belts and tested....the strange outcome was, that all now seems to be very very random....SMKH for example can put surfaces on fire sometimes(like elevators)

it now seems really to be more important which plane your enemy flies, than what bullet type you have loaded....spits are very hard to put on fire where the pilot burns to death for example(in fact it was impossible for us in those two days to manage it once, except when we left the plane with ALT F2, and gave the AI the command of the plane...then it was still hard but possible to set the spit on fire,...and again regardless of ammunition type!)

even more strange is, that i manage it constantly when i fly offline!spits are still the most resistant planes, but they will catch fire sooner or later..


then, so many people complained, about the fuel tank bug about the 109.where the tank explodes, but the 109 goes on flying...i agree with that

but: hurris always had the same problem, and for spits its almost impossible to let the fuel tanks explode at all.....i would say its impossible but i have managed it exactly once in those one and a half years,...while steam stats claim that i have shot down 20 000 spits.


dont get me wrong please!i think its ok that after a two second birst where most of the bullets hit the 109, the plane should light up like a candle....but not every time!but certainly very often!
but this should be the case for all fighters at least, and not every single time....on hurris its a different thing...if you know where to aim, they go up in flames as well,and there it seems more reasonable, as it happens often, but not every time.the spit seems to be a tank in this regard, especially if a human pilot is in command...even if he flies straight and level.

im really confused about this,....and what im trying to reach with this thread is....well to get answers...maybe Luthier or BlackSix can enlighten us!if all this is just like its supposed to be, or if a bug made its way into the complicated DM model,... or maybe if they have dumbed down the effects for some reason...

oh and before i forget it: we also found out, that it can be the case, that if you have for example a loadout without tracers,...and shoot at the enemy,...your enemy can still see tracers sometimes....this is not every time the case, but still possible!

everything very strange...

EDIT: THERE HAS TO BE A DIFFERENT ISSUE!

[notafinger!]

Hi David,

Interesting results. I have noticed in this latest RC patch that 109 fuel tanks no longer explode but will burn with the pilot dying soon after. I think it is quite safe to say the the 109 in CloD has no pilot/fuel tank armor.

Also, Spitfires don't burn...ever. Sure sometimes you can set a fabric covered control surface on fire but it won't have any lasting effect, even on maneuverability. If you really lay into a Spitfire sometimes maybe you see some little bit of fire coming out the engine exhausts. But never once in all of the Spitfires I have shot down on ATAG, SOW, Repka, or offline shooting brainless AI flying straight and level have I seen a Spitfire have a fuel tank fire like all of the other a/c in CloD suffer from. 100's of engines knocked out and pilots killed by mg and cannon rounds and not one fuel tank fire. I know the Spitfire was a great a/c but it did not exactly have a reputation for ruggedness/durability. I can't think of any liquid cooled fighter that did.

[David198502]

http://www.zg26.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=126:b-patrone-in-realitaet-und-simulation&catid=57:il-2-sturmovik-cod-bordwaffen-artikel&Itemid=114

according to this article, the B-Beobachtung should be very effective, in regards of explosvie and ignition effects.so the former effects seemed to be pretty accurate...

[Catseye]

Yes David,
There is something changed.

I have tested all loadouts on bombers and find that there is only damage to the elevators and rudder - never to the wings skin or fuselage.

Also, it doesn't seem to matter which loadout us used the results are the same.

109's smoke and burn with flames all along the wings but fuel tanks do not explode.

110's are almost impossible to shoot down regardless of the number of hits.

Something had changed.

Perhaps you had better post your findings in the bugs thread.

[JG52Uther]

Yes, put it in the bugs thread please.
Now I need to change my ammo belts, as it might explain why a Spit was ignoring me online yesterday...

[Hellbender]

Yesterday, my Spitfire Ia_oct started burning after having been hit by a 109 with cannon and MG rounds. There was definite fire just behind the cockpit and a long trail of smoke behind my plane near Falkstone. However, I can´t tell whether it were the MG or the Cannon rounds making me burning like a candle. Took a pretty heavy burst into my fuselage, so I had to jump from the flamming wreckage.

[SlipBall]

I think luthier said that they reworked the various planes skins/A plates. I notice a difference but not a show stopper. I don't use incendiaries so cannot make a judgment on them.

[David198502]

Yes, put it in the bugs thread please.
Now I need to change my ammo belts, as it might explain why a Spit was ignoring me online yesterday...

its already in the bug thread!
i have linked a comment in the bug thread with this thread...

[SlipBall]

its already in the bug thread!
i have linked a comment in the bug thread with this thread...


David, I really hate to disagree with you, but I just tested the b-Beobachtung round. Using just the b-Beobachtung load, and limited to very short burst. The Rotol, Spit 1, Spit 1a all three pilots bailed out all most instantly. Maybe your issue is an on-line problem that the devs could look at. I think you should test the round as I did in off-line mode, just so that you can confirm my findings.:)

[David198502]

hey slipball!
no no no...no problem and good that you tested it yourself!
but,...before i posted this, i tested it offline to make sure its not only in online mode...and theres another strange thing,...offline the damage model seems to be indeed different to the online one(but that could be because of AI flying differently)

but, i shot at spits with only B-Beobachtung, and the spit didnt show no damage whatsoever, except, that the tailwheel catched fire...so the stupid AI bailed as well pretty quickly!BUT: the game didnt recognize the burning tailwheel as any damage, and when the spit went into the channel, the game message only showed that it crashed...(note: that was after i had shot a continous burst of about ~10seconds bullseye)

and this seems in fact the only visual damage the b-beobachtung is now capable off...no real damage whatsoever.you wont see any other damage.
plz try again,...im pretty confident that you come to the same conclusion!

PS: did you make sure, that you really have only B-Beobachtung in your belts??did you make your own mission for it, to garantuee not to have a wrong loadout?

[David198502]

EDIT:
slipball you are right this time!im right now uploading a vid....its really really strange...im not crazy and i know exactly what a saw the last two days...now i wanted to prove that im right and you are wrong, and the vid im now uploading will prove that you are right :)

the problem seems to be another issue...maybe a bug in the loadouts itself, that it gets too confused when you change types too often???i have no f***** clue whats going on there.
i swear yesterday B-Beobachtung had no effect at all neither online nor offline
the vid comes in a few minutes.

[macro]

I see many 109 burning and killing the pilot, but fuel tank never explodes anymore. Also if the pilot noses up befor they die, and the dies and respawns then the attacker doesnt get credit for pilot kill. Just says the pilot been killed

With alot of dewild ammo this is how most of my kills are happening now.

[SlipBall]

edit:
PS: did you make sure, that you really have only B-Beobachtung in your belts??did you make your own mission for it, to garantuee not to have a wrong loadout?
__________________

Yes yes made certain:)

I know, the game can be funny:)...here is the damage shown seems about right for the ammo used, although when pilot hit the ground, no on screen announcement:confused:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/shot_20121006_043514.jpg

[Ze-Jamz]

Hmmm..going to checking this out today..

Ive scored multiple kills since the RC was introduced but I cant comment on this thread, When I hit the Enemy they normaly dive pretty sharpish for the deck which most of the time I dont follow so not to sure how much damage Ive done exactlly..

What I will say however is that all the ammo works as it should OFFLINE so as the OP has suggested this could be an ONLINE bug

[David198502]

ok the vid is still uploading....

now the problem is, that i know, that yesterday B-Beobachtung had no effect,...im 100% sure about that.

but now im really confused why it was not working at all yesterday, neither online nor offline, and today as i made the vid, it took me about a minute, and the first spit i shot with only B-Beobachtung, went up in flames...really confusing, and there seems to be another problem...there is a bug, but i dont know which one...

[David198502]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DIR08o2yx8&feature=youtu.be

ok as you clearly see, it still seems to be possible to set spits on fire with only B-Beobachtung....but its hard, and if you dont achieve this effect, so that the pilot burns to death,...B-Beobachtung seems to be not recognized by the game to have destructive effects...
in the meanwhile while the vid was uploading to youtube,...i shot down about ~20-30 spits with only B-Beobachtung...
the result was, that the pilots bailed out once their tailwheel was set on fire...it happened as well, that sometimes smaller surfaces on the wings catched fire(only very small)...and when the spits finally crashed, i got no credit for the kill...i only got credit when i achieved to set the spit completely on fire...otherwise no credit.

[pstyle]

Also, Spitfires don't burn...ever.

Yes, they do. And so do the Hurris. But I'm not sure what ammo type is required to achieve it....
BUT, I'll give you that it doesn't happen often.

I have had at least two burn ups in the past few days. One in spit, and the other in a hurri.
The spit one was about three days ago. Engine fire and had flames over the cowling in front of me.

Then again this morning. Vit_Unit in a 109 hit me in a hurricane low over Dunkirk, about two hours ago. My engine caught fire and I was trailing black smoke when I bailed.

[Luno13]

I don't know if this will account for what you are seeing, but the Spitfire's fuel tanks are in the nose, in front of the pilot, and it has no tanks in the wings.

The Hurri has a tank in the nose, and one in each wing.

The 109 has its tank below and behind the pilot.

So, if you're firing from dead six, there is a reduced chance of hitting the fuel tank in the Spit, but a greater chance of hitting it in the 109.

Secondly, the chance of fuel tank fires and explosions have been reduced overall, to be more realistic. In order to set a tank on fire, it needs to be heavily perforated and streaming a lot of fuel. Afterwards, you have to land enough rounds near the leak to ignite it - all of this takes quite a lot of bullets landing in the same place, and is not very easy to do, even with specialized ammo. Instances of fires are very dramatic and memorable, so you hear about them a lot, but they didn't happen that often.

[David198502]

well i agree with almost everything you said, except that the chance of fuel tank fires and explosions have been reduced overall....that seems to be the case for maybe all the other planes, but definitely not for the 109....there it seems to be the other way round!1-2second burst and it lights up like a candle....regardless of ammunition type.

EDIT:i see this argument now for the third time i think,....is it possible that some people confuse Luthier's argument where he stated the the fuel storages are now more resistant to small caliber hits, and think that he meant the fuel tanks of planes?

[trademe900]

damage model is definitely a step forward with the patch. Probably the only thing this patch got right. German bomber wings don't fly off hollywood style now, 109s are not so incredibly tough to put down and resistant to pilot kills despite 8x high rpm .303 raking the entire aircraft, spitfire is still too strong in collisions though.

109 tank is easy and in fact the first thing to hit- below and behind the pilot.

[Ze-Jamz]

I took an E-1 up today and loaded it with Beo's and tracer...No Dmg whatsoever to online Spits but did Dmg AI bombers..

I come up on a Spit's high 6 who didnt see me and peppered him with all 4 guns, I could see the impacts but no DMG was shown neither was he Dmg's...I expended all my ammo in the end fighting him untill i made a run home..

landed and stats said no Dmg..

Before that I hit (or thought i did) approx 3-4 Spits through the night but didnt bring any down, just thought I was unlucky as nothing was showing on stats...

either way not good..I wont be loading them for online play again, they work fine and as they should offline and on AI as i said..

Strange

[David198502]

yep definitely strange....and for me it seems the same, meaning that there is a difference between online and offline mode...

[SlipBall]

They had the gunnery right when the sim was released, a lot has changed since.

[5./JG27.Farber]

yep definitely strange....and for me it seems the same, meaning that there is a difference between online and offline mode...

DM & FM are different for people and bots, offline and online essentially. ;)

[David198502]

yeah but why the heck is that the case...

[Robo.]

yeah but why the heck is that the case...

Because 1c. :o

Very interesting and strange, David.

any information regarding the use of B Geschoss in this period? I remember the ammo was in fact quite similar to the British DeWilde and was used by Luftwaffe /maybe developed for them as well/. Was it belted in Me 109s and bomber gunners as well?

[Attila]

last night i was flying for one and a half hour on ATAG. Killed 4 Spits. After landing i saw the damageprotocol and there was alot of damages! btw, nice feature this protocol on ATAG:)!

[David198502]

Because 1c. :o

Very interesting and strange, David.

any information regarding the use of B Geschoss in this period? I remember the ammo was in fact quite similar to the British DeWilde and was used by Luftwaffe /maybe developed for them as well/. Was it belted in Me 109s and bomber gunners as well?

Hey Robo!
well, its not easy to find got sites with information about this...but ive found this:
http://www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf

on page 65 there is a section about the B-Patrone.
it clearly says, that it should have explosvie as well as incendiary effects.
the article also states that it was used by the Luftwaffe...

[David198502]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkRDhtx5AxM

[Robo.]

Hey Robo!
well, its not easy to find got sites with information about this...but ive found this:
http://www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf

on page 65 there is a section about the B-Patrone.
it clearly says, that it should have explosvie as well as incendiary effects.
the article also states that it was used by the Luftwaffe...

Thanks David, I did some research for all ammunition types in the game a while back and I am aware of the effects and structure of this type of rounds. But I failed to find any specific information as how exactly has this ammunition been used in the Summer of 1940. I always thought that the B-Geschoss was specifically designed for the Luftwaffe (it was illegal for Infantry afik) In fact, all information about LW historical ammo belts is a bit difficult to obtain, I googled in English and auf Deutsch but no avail.

[David198502]

yeah i had the same problem...i found a couple of articles....one was stating, that the B-Patrone was designed for the Luftwaffe....
you are right that it was indeed forbidden to use this kind of ammo for quite a while, until the germans noticed that russian marksmen were using some similar explosive ammo...only then it was used in infantry as well.

some of the articles say as well, that it was a superiour type to the Pmk, but expensive to produce, so that it was used rarely...however, ill have to talk to pitti again, as he has found a site, with historical loadouts for the 109

[Osprey]

With alot of dewild ammo this is how most of my kills are happening now.

I know you are a good flyer Macro but DeWilde was in short supply. Historically you shouldn't have more than a single gun loaded, maybe two if you're lucky.:shock: Anything more is non-historic, but that's your choice of course.


The Hurri has a tank in the nose, and one in each wing.


The common problem for the Hurricane was that when the wings were hit there was no bulkhead between the wing and cockpit, so fuel would just pour into the cockpit floor directly. When it caught fire the pilot was literally sat in a vat of petrol (100 octane of course.....).

[Ze-Jamz]

last night i was flying for one and a half hour on ATAG. Killed 4 Spits. After landing i saw the damageprotocol and there was alot of damages! btw, nice feature this protocol on ATAG:)!

That's nice..

Ammo used? Because if you say you are using Beo's then that is even more confusing as this should be a uniformed problem?

As I was testing these issues I had nothing loaded other than B's and tracer

[David198502]

well ze-jamz,i think that loading tracers, should lead to a different result than loading B-Beobachtung only...

[Ze-Jamz]

well ze-jamz,i think that loading tracers, should lead to a different result than loading B-Beobachtung only...

Just jamz mate :)

Too a small degree yes..fyi 1 in every 10 was tracer so I doubt the difference is anything other than minute

[Robo.]

yeah i had the same problem...i found a couple of articles....one was stating, that the B-Patrone was designed for the Luftwaffe....
you are right that it was indeed forbidden to use this kind of ammo for quite a while, until the germans noticed that russian marksmen were using some similar explosive ammo...only then it was used in infantry as well.

some of the articles say as well, that it was a superiour type to the Pmk, but expensive to produce, so that it was used rarely...however, ill have to talk to pitti again, as he has found a site, with historical loadouts for the 109

Yes I found that info, too. Russian ammunition was different but you're right, this kind of ammunition was quite popular with snipers because of the extended range and very favourable ballistic coeficient.

If you can share the website Pitti found that would be great.

[Ze-Jamz]

fellas has this situation changed with the patch?

Flown red couple of times so havent tested them yet online

has anyone?

[Insuber]

I took an E-1 up today and loaded it with Beo's and tracer...No Dmg whatsoever to online Spits but did Dmg AI bombers..

I come up on a Spit's high 6 who didnt see me and peppered him with all 4 guns, I could see the impacts but no DMG was shown neither was he Dmg's...I expended all my ammo in the end fighting him untill i made a run home..

landed and stats said no Dmg..

Before that I hit (or thought i did) approx 3-4 Spits through the night but didnt bring any down, just thought I was unlucky as nothing was showing on stats...

either way not good..I wont be loading them for online play again, they work fine and as they should offline and on AI as i said..

Strange

I shot a Spit Ia on ATAG 2 days ago from some 75-50 m, dead six, MG+cannon with no Beobachtung, only AP-IET and a mix of m-Geschoss and AP-HE for the cannons, a long burst before he dove away, and the damage report showed only a "weapons damage". I believe that shooting from dead six reduces greatly (too much) the effectiveness of rounds.

Cheers!

[Ze-Jamz]

I shot a Spit Ia on ATAG 2 days ago from some 75-50 m, dead six, MG+cannon with no Beobachtung, only AP-IET and a mix of m-Geschoss and AP-HE for the cannons, a long burst before he dove away, and the damage report showed only a "weapons damage". I believe that shooting from dead six reduces greatly (too much) the effectiveness of rounds.

Cheers!

rgt..

Beo's are the most effective ammo in Mg's imo... I hope they have fixed that problem

[notafinger!]

rgt..

Beo's are the most effective ammo in Mg's imo... I hope they have fixed that problem

I find the E-1 using 80% AP to be extremely effective. Parts flying off and pilot kills are common.