Thinking about a Community Patch

[Feathered_IV]

Since the dust has settled somewhat on the Q&A session and some of the answers have brought a few unwelcome truths home. I've pretty much come to terms with the idea that there is no rescue ship coming for clod, and that what we have now is pretty much what we will need to make do with for the next couple of years until the Sequel™ is released.

With that in mind, I am starting to wonder what we can do to make the best of it. The half dozen or so patches over the last eighteen months have fixed and broken things in fairly equal measure, and it's hard to point at any one update and say which was the best. Each had their merits and their... well, lets not dwell on that.

Last night I downloaded Kegetys' Clodmod activator ( http://www.kegetys.fi/misc/ ) and did a dump of all of the game's files.

It is interesting to look through the gizzards of the thing and see how it is made. The original Il-2 series is just as interesting, and indeed it is remarkable how similar the two are in layout. the Effects folders and files for example will look very familiar to anyone who has some hands on experience with Il-2 modding.

The interesting bit was when I considered that the files in front of me were for the latest version of the game. What If I rolled back the previous patch and made a dump of that version and compared the differences? What if I did the same for the ones before that, or the V1 Collectors Edition?

Maybe it would be possible to pull some of the best bits out of each version and make a sort of compilation mod. Get the decent looking Spit's weathering layer from the early build and use it instead of the messy current one for example. Extract the earlier landshading files and use them instead. Tweak the tree textures, fix the dust particles, revert to a Hurricane FM that will start up...

There are a lot of things we can do. The files are right there in the open once you extract them. Nothing much seems hashed or encrypted and just about everything can be opened in notepad. It would be baby steps at first, but those who were around during the early days of Il-2 modding at AAA would remember how things started out. It was an exciting time, exchanging ideas and techniques. Learning about the game and how it all worked.

Anyone with experience in modding work, I'd urge you to take a look inside Cliffs Of Dover. There is a lot to see. If anyone can recall elements of previous patches or versions that had things that were working nicely and are now busted... maybe speak up and link to the patch in question. Maybe we can fix things after all!

[Tree_UK]

Thats a great idea. Its worth a go in my opinion.

[Anders_And]

Since the dust has settled somewhat on the Q&A session and some of the answers have brought a few unwelcome truths home. I've pretty much come to terms with the idea that there is no rescue ship coming for clod, and that what we have now is pretty much what we will need to make do with for the next couple of years until the Sequel™ is released.

With that in mind, I am starting to wonder what we can do to make the best of it. The half dozen or so patches over the last eighteen months have fixed and broken things in fairly equal measure, and it's hard to point at any one update and say which was the best. Each had their merits and their... well, lets not dwell on that.

Last night I downloaded Kegetys' Clodmod activator ( http://www.kegetys.fi/misc/ ) and did a dump of all of the game's files.

It is interesting to look through the gizzards of the thing and see how it is made. The original Il-2 series is just as interesting, and indeed it is remarkable how similar the two are in layout. the Effects folders and files for example will look very familiar to anyone who has some hands on experience with Il-2 modding.

The interesting bit was when I considered that the files in front of me were for the latest version of the game. What If I rolled back the previous patch and made a dump of that version and compared the differences? What if I did the same for the ones before that, or the V1 Collectors Edition?

Maybe it would be possible to pull some of the best bits out of each version and make a sort of compilation mod. Get the decent looking Spit's weathering layer from the early build and use it instead of the messy current one for example. Extract the earlier landshading files and use them instead. Tweak the tree textures, fix the dust particles, revert to a Hurricane FM that will start up...

There are a lot of things we can do. The files are right there in the open once you extract them. Nothing much seems hashed or encrypted and just about everything can be opened in notepad. It would be baby steps at first, but those who were around during the early days of Il-2 modding at AAA would remember how things started out. It was an exciting time, exchanging ideas and techniques. Learning about the game and how it all worked.

Anyone with experience in modding work, I'd urge you to take a look inside Cliffs Of Dover. There is a lot to see. If anyone can recall elements of previous patches or versions that had things that were working nicely and are now busted... maybe speak up and link to the patch in question. Maybe we can fix things after all!

+1

[SlipBall]

I really don't think that the investors, 1c, or luthier want people playing with the code...you mention AAA and the early days, I think 1c never admired the behavior of a few who took it upon themselves.

[MadBlaster]

What about steam? Won't it just over write any mod or stop it from working?

[SiThSpAwN]

What about steam? Won't it just over write any mod or stop it from working?

You should be able to prevent Steam from doing that automatically... I have the original IL2 in steam and its full of goodies that dont seem to be hurt by Steam.

As for people commenting on whether they would like us to mess with the code I say its modding, and modding is what kept the IL2 series afloat for all these years... I think if a team could be put together it could be interesting for sure...

[tintifaxl]

This should definitely be done, once the final patch for CloD hits Steam.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Steam Workshop as possible platform? Don't they use that for some games with "user created content"..

[CWMV]

For sure! I think that was the issue all along, just waiting for the "ok, we give up" from 1c.

[MadBlaster]

You should be able to prevent Steam from doing that automatically... I have the original IL2 in steam and its full of goodies that dont seem to be hurt by Steam.

As for people commenting on whether they would like us to mess with the code I say its modding, and modding is what kept the IL2 series afloat for all these years... I think if a team could be put together it could be interesting for sure...

Well that would be great to get rid of Steam. However I specifically asked Luthier if he would ever get rid of it and he said 'no'. Although he did say later he will be releasing SDK for modding. So, I think he supports modding, but he would like you to do it through the SDK. I understand this. They need to make a living doing what they do, somehow.


Quote:
2. will you ever consider getting rid of steam and going to hyper-lobby format?
No.

On the other hand, if you invested thousands of dollars in hardware to play this dud, I can see a strong case for wanting to circumvent and make the game playable in the meantime until the sequel. Self interest verses community, usually the former wins out.

If I was Luthier, I would get on that SDK release really fast.

[lonewulf]

It sounds to me as though this could result in further divisions within the community. While it's true that modding greatly improved the old IL-2 game, it also effectively killed it in the end by splitting the community into far too many mod-based factions that typically lacked the critical mass needed to succeed.

If a 'community patch' means that the number of servers increase but player numbers on those servers goes down, then I'd be opposed to the idea.

[SiThSpAwN]

I dont think you need to sweat Steam too much, I think you could work around it, the only issue would be after the sequel and how it all meshes together with that and mods...

[Feathered_IV]

This has more for the benefit of offline players perhaps. I wouldn't go messing about with FM's online yet. Might not go over well with Steam. Other mods work fine though. Beta patches are a sort of mod after all.

For what its worth, here is the HurricaneMkI_RotolRMS-7_100oct.fmd
Certainly makes for interesting reading.

;
[Aircraft]
;

Wingspan 40 ft
Length 32 ft 3 inch

;
[Systems]
;

Propulsion Engine Rolls-Royce MerlinIII-RG-Hurricane-100-octane Propellor Rotol RMS-7
Pneumatics Source Engine0 Pressure 300 lbsqin PrimaryContainer 4 litre Starts Open, Full SecondaryContainer 4 litre Starts Closed, Empty
Hydraulics Source Engine0 Pressure 40 bar Reservoir 8.5 pt
Electrics Source Engine0 Voltage 12.0 V BatteryCapacity 54 Ah GeneratorOutput 650 sW at 2000 RPM
LandingFlaps Hydraulic Extends 8.0 sec
Undercarriage Retractable Hydraulic Extends 5.0 sec Folds Inwards OperatesThrough 200 knots EmergencySystem Nil SafetyLock Nil SpringsStiffness Main 2.5 Tail 0.9 MaxDragEquivalentS 0.7 m2
WheelBrakes Pneumatic Efficiency 1.0
Hatch0 Mechanical Motion Type Sliding Time 1.0 sec Jettison Type Detachable Time 0.5 sec
PitotHeater Electrical

;
[Controls]
;

Aileron Slider Threshold 320 kmh
Elevator Slider Threshold 320 kmh
Rudder Slider Threshold 360 kmh
AileronTrim Nil Default 0.040
ElevatorTrim Slider Range -0.5 to 0.5 Default -0.01
RudderTrim Slider Range -0.5 to 0.5 Default 0.07

EngineThrottle Slider
EnginePitch Slider
EngineMix Toggle
EngineMagneto0 Toggle
EngineMagneto1 Toggle
EngineRadiator Slider
EngineBoostCutOut Toggle
EngineSlowRunningCutOut PushButton

LandingFlaps Switch Up Neutral Down
Undercarriage Switch Up Neutral Down
WheelBrakes PushButton
HydraulicsHandPump PushButton
TankSelector0 CyclicSwitch Close Main Auxilary Parked 0 Cruise 1 Selection 1 Flow FuelTank 0 to Engine 0 Flow FuelTank 1 to Engine 0 Selection 2 Flow FuelTank 2 to Engine 0
Kraftstoff CyclicSwitch Left Centre Right
AltimeterPinion Rocker Range 800 to 1045 Default 1000 mbar
DirectionPinion Rocker
CourseSetterPinion Rocker
Puppet0PriPitLight Slider
Puppet0SecPitLight Slider
Puppet0SightLight Toggle
AcemakerSight Distance Slider Range 150 to 600 Default 400 yd Side Slider Range 100 to 30 Default 30 ft Dimmer Toggle
PitotHeater Toggle

Puppet0Hatch Switch Close Open Selection 0 Closes Hatch 0 Selection 1 Opens Hatch 0
Puppet0Jettison ExpendableSwitch Off Off On Selection 2 Sheds Hatch 0

;
[Instruments]
;

EngineFuelPress Mechanical Range 0 to 5 lbsqin
EngineOilPress Hydraulic Range 0 to 150 lbsqin
EngineOilTemp Hydraulic Range 0 to 100 C
EngineWaterTemp Hydraulic Range 0 to 140 C
EngineManifoldPress Mechanical Range -4.0 to +12.0 lbsqin
EngineRPM Electrical Range 1600 to 4000 RPM
Speedometer Mechanical Range 0 to 440 mph Pitot Pioneer
Altimeter Mechanical Dimension feet
Variometer Mechanical Range -4000 to 4000 feetperminute
MagneticCompass Mechanical JamAngle 12.5 deg
SlipIndicator Mechanical Amplitude 20.0 deg
TurnIndicator Mechanical Source Primary NominalTurnTime 2 min
ArtificialHorizon Mechanical Source Primary Pitch Range -60 to 60 deg Roll Range -181 to 181 deg
DirectionIndicator Mechanical Source Primary
FuelReserve Electrical Range 0 to 37 gal KraftstoffSwitching Selection 0 Shows FuelTank 0 Selection 1 Shows FuelTank 2 Selection 2 Shows FuelTank 1

GyroFeed Primary Pneumatic Secondary Nil

;
[Mass]
;

Empty 2495 kg
TakeOff 3311 kg
Fuel 427 litre
FuelTanks Aluminum 150 litre Aluminum 150 litre Aluminum 127 litre
FuelFillingOrder Tanks 0 1 Tank 2

;
[Squares]
;

Wing 23.92 m2
Aileron 1.78 m2
Flap 2.38 m2
Stabilizer 2.80 m2
Elevator 1.60 m2
Keel 0.90 m2
Rudder 1.40 m2

;
[Arm]
;

Aileron 4.56 m
Flap 1.65 m
Stabilizer 5.41 m
Keel 5.64 m
Elevator 6.12 m
Rudder 6.18 m
Wing_In 0.75 m
Wing_Mid 2.31 m
Wing_Out 4.69 m
GCenter 0.00 m
GCenterZ 0.00 m
GC_AOA_Shift 0.50 m
GC_Flaps_Shift 0.15 m
GC_Gear_Shift -0.1 m
Wing_V 3.0

;
[Params]
;

SpinCxLoss 0.08
SpinCyLoss 0.03

Vmin 150.0 kmh
Vmax 418.0 kmh
VmaxAllowed 700.0 kmh
VmaxH 527.0 kmh at 6100 m
VminFLAPS 130.0 kmh
VmaxFLAPS 250.0 kmh
Vz_climb 15.0 ms
V_climb 270.0 kmh
T_turn 19.0 sec
V_turn 290.0 kmh
K_max 13.0
FlapsMult 1.1
FlapsAngSh 4.0

RangeAbility 850 km

SensYaw 0.45
SensPitch 0.66
SensRoll 0.15

;
[Polares]
;

lineCyCoeff 0.090
AOAMinCx_Shift 1.4760736
Cy0_0 0.14
AOACritH_0 15.5
AOACritL_0 -15.0
CyCritH_0 1.1746255
CyCritL_0 -0.91520053
CxMin_0 0.0238
parabCxCoeff_0 7.5E-4
Cy0_1 0.4086449
AOACritH_1 14.5
AOACritL_1 -19.0
CyCritH_1 1.5095204
CyCritL_1 -0.7
CxMin_1 0.06892961
parabCxCoeff_1 9.2E-4

parabAngle 8.0
Decline 0.005
maxDistAng 40.0

[SiThSpAwN]

It would be interesting to see if a team could tackle one of the none flyable aircraft and make it flyable, complete with clickable cockpit, etc. I know that Luthier said it was too expensive to add new aircraft for free in his answers, but the modding community would be a great fit for that.

[major_setback]

Since the dust has settled somewhat on the Q&A session and some of the answers have brought a few unwelcome truths home. I've pretty much come to terms with the idea that there is no rescue ship coming for clod....




What exactly is it that you miss?
As I understand it CoD will be updated when the sequel comes out, and from then on improvements will continue that affect that merged version of the game.

As far as weathering goes Luthier never said that skin weathering would never be addressed, just that he thought it wasn't 'terrible'. I'm sure gameplay, weathering (permanent heavy weathering on British fighters) and lots of the other present issues (bridges, wave height, AI tactics, AI response, clouds) will be resolved in good time. At the moment the emphasis must be on getting the game stable and not introducing any other issues. All must be hunk dory before the merge of CoD and BoM. Getting CoD smooth and glitch free is the priority.
Once everything is working OK then the merge can occur and after that global improvements and added features can come.

The map/maps we will be able to edit when the planned user tools become available, and Luthier has definitely not abandoned the development of these.

What, as you see it, are the specific failings of CoD that can't be resolved after the merge?

[SiThSpAwN]

What exactly is it that you miss?
As I understand it CoD will be updated when the sequel comes out, and from then on improvements will continue that affect that merged version of the game.

I didnt think that improvements from the sequel will be ported over to CLoD, least thats how I have been reading things... I could be wrong of course...

[major_setback]

I didnt think that improvements from the sequel will be ported over to CLoD, least thats how I have been reading things... I could be wrong of course...

I was unclear.
I meant that global improvements to the merged version would affect CoD as a part of the merged CoD/BoM.

Any aircraft, flight model, AI improvement can come in the future. As Luthier said, until now all time has gone to sorting out glitches. Next, the improvement of the game can begin.


luthier:
Your general criticism is spot on. We shipped a product that had too many technical issues for us to really focus on finer elements of gameplay. There had never been a point, we're not even there today, where we could sit back, look at the code, and say, hell, what a great foundation, let's build a great game on top of it.

[kendo65]

...

The interesting bit was when I considered that the files in front of me were for the latest version of the game. What If I rolled back the previous patch and made a dump of that version and compared the differences? What if I did the same for the ones before that, or the V1 Collectors Edition?

Maybe it would be possible to pull some of the best bits out of each version and make a sort of compilation mod. Get the decent looking Spit's weathering layer from the early build and use it instead of the messy current one for example. Extract the earlier landshading files and use them instead. Tweak the tree textures, fix the dust particles, revert to a Hurricane FM that will start up...

There are a lot of things we can do. The files are right there in the open once you extract them. Nothing much seems hashed or encrypted and just about everything can be opened in notepad. It would be baby steps at first, but those who were around during the early days of Il-2 modding at AAA would remember how things started out. It was an exciting time, exchanging ideas and techniques. Learning about the game and how it all worked.

Anyone with experience in modding work, I'd urge you to take a look inside Cliffs Of Dover. There is a lot to see. If anyone can recall elements of previous patches or versions that had things that were working nicely and are now busted... maybe speak up and link to the patch in question. Maybe we can fix things after all!

I'm really not sure that it would be as easy as a simple 'mix and match' strategy. There are likely to be dependencies between files of a particular version that will break the game if replaced by those from a different version.

It may be possible to do some simple things but it could turn into a Frankenstein's monster situation.

Also, as for il-2 mods, getting agreement from the community as a whole that a particular change is an improvement could be difficult.

Overall I'm not really in favour.

Luthier has said that the FMs will continue to be worked on until they're good enough, and when the map sdk is released then there should be big improvements made to the main map.

I didnt think that improvements from the sequel will be ported over to CLoD, least thats how I have been reading things... I could be wrong of course...

No, they will - things like weather, AI improvements, Comms, etc, etc.

[David198502]

where are the FM files, and how can one open them???
i dont want to change them, but only have a look and see if they can reveal some answers on questions Luthier and the team dont think its necessary to comment.

[Catseye]

Here we go again opening Pandora's Box!

[5./JG27.Farber]

Yup, games cracked. Let the modding madness begin... :(

[Sandstone]

...Luthier never said that skin weathering would never be addressed, just that he thought it wasn't 'terrible'. I'm sure gameplay, weathering (permanent heavy weathering on British fighters) and lots of the other present issues (bridges, wave height, AI tactics, AI response, clouds) will be resolved in good time...The map/maps we will be able to edit when the planned user tools become available, and Luthier has definitely not abandoned the development of these.

What, as you see it, are the specific failings of CoD that can't be resolved after the merge?

Given the performance of 1C so far, I really don't think it's realistic to expect that we will ever see the weathering corrected or map-editing tools released. It's just not going to happen. The AI might get improved, but Luthier doesn't even seem to think it's a problem as it is now, so I can't see that happening for several years at an absolute minimum.

[JG52Krupi]

Here we go again opening Pandora's Box!

Yup, games cracked. Let the modding madness begin... :(

Yeah, could not agree more.

Spits and 109s that fly like UFO's AWESOME, constant arguing about who has the realistic FM, four different "Ultimate" Mods yeah this is great news :rolleyes:

[Liz Lemon]

It would be interesting to see if a team could tackle one of the none flyable aircraft and make it flyable, complete with clickable cockpit, etc. I know that Luthier said it was too expensive to add new aircraft for free in his answers, but the modding community would be a great fit for that.

We need a working .msh converter for the cockpits to work.

It was possible to add new aircraft to the game at one point (and it may still be possible, I just haven't tried in ages) but there are problems. A .msh converter would solve a good number of these issues, but that creating a converter is beyond me.

At one point I did try to alter the HDR and look of the sunrises and sunsets to match that of the earlier patches. But they changed quite a few things and I couldn't figure out how to get it to work with about a half hour of tinkering. Once we have a final patch I'll start messing with things again, but I see no point until then - too easy for a few things to be changed in a patch that will bork a bunch of work.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

+10 to OP. :)

Unless we see a miracle cure for CoD with the last patch, I think opening the game for modding is the way to go.

Right now CoD is BROKEN, and frankly, not worth flying. The only time I fly it is when a new patch comes out to see if they've cured the problems... and everytime I do, the same issues, (or more, or old issues) reappear.

I disagree with those who say that modding will split the community and cause the game to disappear. In fact, mods in IL-2 1946 gave new life to the game and caused a lot of people to return to it.

As far as creating new cockpits, I'd say yes, although this would require a HUGE amount of work, much more than in IL-2 1946.

But it would be great to see a flyable Beaufighter, Gladiator, CR42, etc.

By the way, looking at those Hurricane files, I am struck by one figure...

Vmin 150.0 kmh

Is this the game aircraft's stall speed??? If it is, then it is WAY off historical. If this is stall speed, no wonder the Hurricanes have trouble outturning the 109's.

[Catseye]

By the way, looking at those Hurricane files, I am struck by one figure...
Is this the game aircraft's stall speed??? If it is, then it is WAY off historical. If this is stall speed, no wonder the Hurricanes have trouble outturning the 109's.

That's 93 mph. Seems OK to me.
You think it should be lower?

[*Buzzsaw*]

That's 93 mph. Seems OK to me.
You think it should be lower?

According to the Pilot's manual for the Hurricane I, (this was the version running 87 octane) the instructions are as follows:

With Flaps and Undercarriage up, the aircraft stalls at at a speed of 72 mph, A.S.I . reading. With Flaps and Undercarriage down, the aircraft stalls at a speed of 55 mph, A.S.I. reading.


According to the manual, the A.S.I. readings were not exact to the real airspeed, it says:

At 80 mph A.S.I. reading, add +6.0 mph


So actual stall speed with flaps and undercarriage up was approx. 78-80mph.

The Hurricane had a HUGE wing, and a very high lift aerofoil, the thickness of the aerofoil was what increased the drag so much that its top speed was very low. It was also what allowed it to turn INSIDE the Spitfire.

In any case, its unclear if the figure of 150 kph is used by the game to determine the stall speed, or that is calculated in a ratio to the Lift coefficient, seen further down in the list of figures.

[jimbop]

How could this be used online? Could a server set what the steam check files are or is this done by 1C? If it is only offline then it will be of limited interest to many. It would be frustrating to fly a perfect spit FM offline but fly something different online.

[JtD]

[Polares]
;

lineCyCoeff 0.090
AOAMinCx_Shift 1.4760736
Cy0_0 0.14
AOACritH_0 15.5
AOACritL_0 -15.0
CyCritH_0 1.1746255
CyCritL_0 -0.91520053
CxMin_0 0.0238
parabCxCoeff_0 7.5E-4
Cy0_1 0.4086449
AOACritH_1 14.5
AOACritL_1 -19.0
CyCritH_1 1.5095204
CyCritL_1 -0.7
CxMin_1 0.06892961
parabCxCoeff_1 9.2E-4

parabAngle 8.0
Decline 0.005
maxDistAng 40.0Straight from Il-2 1946. Was bad then, still is today.

[Feathered_IV]

What exactly is it that you miss?
As I understand it CoD will be updated when the sequel comes out, and from then on improvements will continue that affect that merged version of the game.


No need to take that tone.

The Sequel is years away. In the meantime creative members of the community might like to explore ways of adding a few small fixes, optimisations or improvements.

FM changes and new 3D may not be a realistic goal at this time, but smaller fixes are well within our reach. Trees can be tweaked for colour and performance (2048x textures seems a bit much). Spelling errors in German cockpits can be corrected. Landscape textures can be easily worked on. Sounds can be altered. GUI could be reskinned. Clouds can be tweaked etc. the list goes on.

When the Sequel comes out (2014 if they remain on schedule, 2015 or beyond if they do not) then we can drop the mods and enjoy a brand new merged or standalone game.

[Chivas]

Modding the standalone COD is an option, and it would be very interesting to compare COD as it improves with each new patch and Sequel from the devs, and improvements made by modders to the Standalone COD. The devs should certainly have the advantage early considering their organized development team, with assigned tasks, and not to mention the people modding the devs series work. I'm sure some of the work done by the standalone modders could also be used in the devs series, and vis versa.

[Anders_And]

I say... lets start modding the easy things like the landscape colours and trees...
and then when we find a way to mod the FMs we should do that!

[major_setback]

No need to take that tone.

The Sequel is years away. In the meantime creative members of the community might like to explore ways of adding a few small fixes, optimisations or improvements.

FM changes and new 3D may not be a realistic goal at this time, but smaller fixes are well within our reach. Trees can be tweaked for colour and performance (2048x textures seems a bit much). Spelling errors in German cockpits can be corrected. Landscape textures can be easily worked on. Sounds can be altered. GUI could be reskinned. Clouds can be tweaked etc. the list goes on.

When the Sequel comes out (2014 if they remain on schedule, 2015 or beyond if they do not) then we can drop the mods and enjoy a brand new merged or standalone game.

I honestly did not intend to imply anything. No 'tone' was intended. I was genuinely curious as to how you were thinking.

Hopefully, with this latest Beta patch being ok, (as it seems a the moment) development will move a lot quicker than it has until now, with everything being held up by bug searching.

I would like to state for the record that I don't think BoM will be a magic fix. I remember that couldn't even run Pacific Fighters when that first came out as the next part in the Forgotten battles series. On the whole everything turned out well in the long run. And I will stay around this time too, hoping it will be kept alive long enough for that to happen.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Straight from Il-2 1946. Was bad then, still is today.

Salute JtD

Are you saying the way the FM is modelled in CoD is no more complex than in IL-2? Or that the Hurricane's modelling is the same?

[Feathered_IV]

I honestly did not intend to imply anything. No 'tone' was intended. I was genuinely curious as to how you were thinking...
Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Ah, no worries mate. My mistake then. I think after swimming with sharks here for so long, one expects to get bitten at every turn. ;)

[Verhängnis]

Straight from Il-2 1946. Was bad then, still is today.

But there is some complicated mathematics going on inside for each of those, it's not great, but considering what they had, it works well. ;)

We need a working .msh converter for the cockpits to work.


I managed to get the existing one to work and convert the meshes, mostly, to text and readable. And then I tried to no avail to track down the original creator Mr.Jones and found every existence of his on the internet down to his last employer but I think he had even moved on from there. Not to mention that the 3d view doesn't even work in Windows 7.

[Liz Lemon]

Salute JtD

Are you saying the way the FM is modelled in CoD is no more complex than in IL-2? Or that the Hurricane's modelling is the same?

Comparing IL2 vs COD flight model shows that they are largely the same variables used in the fmd. There are a few variables present in COD that aren't there in IL2 if I'm remembering things right, but its been a while since I compared them.

Of course what really matters is how the game is using those numbers, which may be significantly different in COD... or the exact same.

And that is the real problem. If we don't know how the engine is handling the variables then building an accurate flight model will be hard. Take the 150kmh Vmin for the hurricane for example. Is this how the stall speed is set or do other variables play a role?

Anyway, whats the general consensus on the most "accurate" modded fmds for hurris in IL2?



As for some of the other suggestions.

Bumping down texture resolution shouldn't do much if the game is handling mipmaps and the in-game texture settings properly. Of course testing will be needed to verify this.

[jimbop]

Comparing IL2 vs COD flight model shows that they are largely the same variables used in the fmd. There are a few variables present in COD that aren't there in IL2 if I'm remembering things right, but its been a while since I compared them.

Of course what really matters is how the game is using those numbers, which may be significantly different in COD... or the exact same.

And that is the real problem. If we don't know how the engine is handling the variables then building an accurate flight model will be hard. Take the 150kmh Vmin for the hurricane for example. Is this how the stall speed is set or do other variables play a role?

Could you use RL flight data vs. the SU-26 file variables to understand the game engine calibration? For example, file variable says stall speed = 75 (or whatever) vs in-game stall speed = 80 gives you the correction factor.

[maxwellbest]

Interesting thread. My impressions of community mods for IL2 1946 are very positive. Particularly the FM mods by Aaken. However, I doubt if UBI or 1c would allow the source code to be released as such. My hope is TD would get the rights to patch, don't know whats in it for TD, whether they are a bunch of uber geeks who get satisfaction from playing with source code or the like. But they have done very impressive things with IL2 '46, kudos to them.

[Liz Lemon]

I managed to get the existing one to work and convert the meshes, mostly, to text and readable. And then I tried to no avail to track down the original creator Mr.Jones and found every existence of his on the internet down to his last employer but I think he had even moved on from there. Not to mention that the 3d view doesn't even work in Windows 7.

Yeah, that is stuff that is way beyond me. The xentax would probably be the best place to find someone who could make it go. I know that other games use the .msh format similar to il2, and people on that site have made working converters for other games.

Currently its possible to get .msh files into il2 by adding, I believe, a thing for materials right at the start of the file.

The problem is dealing with the way the game handles hooks. Maybe its just my lack of experience with making models for IL2, but it seems that a .msh converter will be necessary to get cockpits for the un-flyables since the camera location is based off of hooks.

And the cockpits as is would be, imo, acceptable in the short term as well as offering a decent jumping off point for making better detailed cockpits.
http://www.abload.de/img/cockpit264iwh.png

Could you use RL flight data vs. the SU-26 file variables to understand the game engine calibration? For example, file variable says stall speed = 75 (or whatever) vs in-game stall speed = 80 gives you the correction factor.

That an obvious way of going about it that I haven't thought of. Now added to the list of things to dig into this weekend.

[JtD]

Salute JtD

Are you saying the way the FM is modelled in CoD is no more complex than in IL-2? Or that the Hurricane's modelling is the same?Many of the parameters in the FM file are the same as used in the FM file for Il-2 (2007). CloD might use them a little differently, might also have a few parameters on top of it. But I guess they're going to use the in a very similar way, unless they've thrown physics overboard.

[the Dutchman]

I really don't think that the investors, 1c, or luthier want people playing with the code...you mention AAA and the early days, I think 1c never admired the behavior of a few who took it upon themselves.

The investors?
That's us!

[Chivas]

The investors?
That's us!

We are a minor investor at the moment. The real investors have spent millions so far funding the development. COD sales didn't even come close to covering those costs and providing a profit. It appears the investors are willing to keep the development in business atleast until the Sequel is released. Hopefully the Sequel will be good enough to give the investors some return, but I think the development has taken so long that there will have to be a number of Sequels sold before the investors start seeing any substantial return on their dollar. The announcement, whenever that happens should give us a better idea of their future plans. I'm sure they've had endless meetings trying to figure ways to make a profit as soon as possible, and know the only way its going to happen is fixing the new game engine for use in a number of different venues, like maybe MMO's, along with Sequels, etc. Time will tell. Hopefully there is a future.

[banned]

We are a minor investor at the moment. The real investors have spent millions so far funding the development. COD sales didn't even come close to covering those costs and providing a profit. It appears the investors are willing to keep the development in business atleast until the Sequel is released. Hopefully the Sequel will be good enough to give the investors some return, but I think the development has taken so long that there will have to be a number of Sequels sold before the investors start seeing any substantial return on their dollar. The announcement, whenever that happens should give us a better idea of their future plans. I'm sure they've had endless meetings trying to figure ways to make a profit as soon as possible, and know the only way its going to happen is fixing the new game engine for use in a number of different venues, like maybe MMO's, along with Sequels, etc. Time will tell. Hopefully there is a future.
Chivas, do you have the exact numbers, or know where they are written, that stipulates the total cost of the Clod project compared to the returns made? I can't find anything precise on either figure.
Kind Regards

[Chivas]

Chivas, do you have the exact numbers, or know where they are written, that stipulates the total cost of the Clod project compared to the returns made? I can't find anything precise on either figure.
Kind Regards

I don't have any exact figures or facts. We did hear the rumour a couple of years ago that the development costs at that time came to around 7 or 8 million dollars. There is no way COD recovered those costs. Luthier did say in the recent quesion/answer thread, that COD didn't come close to covering costs. Personally I think there is only one reason the investors are still willing to continue financing atleast until the sequel, a successful Sequel is the only way toward a successful series and decent return on their investment. Things better start looking good for the development soon, as its anyone guess when the investors will stop throwing good money after bad. I'm not sure but I think a post I made awhile ago similiar to this one got deleted. Anyway the developer has made some improvements to the sound and graphic engine, and are currently rewriting the GUI, AI amongst other things so there is a chance things could get sorted in the Sequel. Everything depends on that happening.

[*Buzzsaw*]

This has more for the benefit of offline players perhaps. I wouldn't go messing about with FM's online yet. Might not go over well with Steam. Other mods work fine though. Beta patches are a sort of mod after all.

For what its worth, here is the HurricaneMkI_RotolRMS-7_100oct.fmd
Certainly makes for interesting reading.

;
[Aircraft]
;

Wingspan 40 ft
Length 32 ft 3 inch

;
[Systems]
;

Propulsion Engine Rolls-Royce MerlinIII-RG-Hurricane-100-octane Propellor Rotol RMS-7
Pneumatics Source Engine0 Pressure 300 lbsqin PrimaryContainer 4 litre Starts Open, Full SecondaryContainer 4 litre Starts Closed, Empty
Hydraulics Source Engine0 Pressure 40 bar Reservoir 8.5 pt
Electrics Source Engine0 Voltage 12.0 V BatteryCapacity 54 Ah GeneratorOutput 650 sW at 2000 RPM
LandingFlaps Hydraulic Extends 8.0 sec
Undercarriage Retractable Hydraulic Extends 5.0 sec Folds Inwards OperatesThrough 200 knots EmergencySystem Nil SafetyLock Nil SpringsStiffness Main 2.5 Tail 0.9 MaxDragEquivalentS 0.7 m2
WheelBrakes Pneumatic Efficiency 1.0
Hatch0 Mechanical Motion Type Sliding Time 1.0 sec Jettison Type Detachable Time 0.5 sec
PitotHeater Electrical

;
[Controls]
;

Aileron Slider Threshold 320 kmh
Elevator Slider Threshold 320 kmh
Rudder Slider Threshold 360 kmh
AileronTrim Nil Default 0.040
ElevatorTrim Slider Range -0.5 to 0.5 Default -0.01
RudderTrim Slider Range -0.5 to 0.5 Default 0.07

EngineThrottle Slider
EnginePitch Slider
EngineMix Toggle
EngineMagneto0 Toggle
EngineMagneto1 Toggle
EngineRadiator Slider
EngineBoostCutOut Toggle
EngineSlowRunningCutOut PushButton

LandingFlaps Switch Up Neutral Down
Undercarriage Switch Up Neutral Down
WheelBrakes PushButton
HydraulicsHandPump PushButton
TankSelector0 CyclicSwitch Close Main Auxilary Parked 0 Cruise 1 Selection 1 Flow FuelTank 0 to Engine 0 Flow FuelTank 1 to Engine 0 Selection 2 Flow FuelTank 2 to Engine 0
Kraftstoff CyclicSwitch Left Centre Right
AltimeterPinion Rocker Range 800 to 1045 Default 1000 mbar
DirectionPinion Rocker
CourseSetterPinion Rocker
Puppet0PriPitLight Slider
Puppet0SecPitLight Slider
Puppet0SightLight Toggle
AcemakerSight Distance Slider Range 150 to 600 Default 400 yd Side Slider Range 100 to 30 Default 30 ft Dimmer Toggle
PitotHeater Toggle

Puppet0Hatch Switch Close Open Selection 0 Closes Hatch 0 Selection 1 Opens Hatch 0
Puppet0Jettison ExpendableSwitch Off Off On Selection 2 Sheds Hatch 0

;
[Instruments]
;

EngineFuelPress Mechanical Range 0 to 5 lbsqin
EngineOilPress Hydraulic Range 0 to 150 lbsqin
EngineOilTemp Hydraulic Range 0 to 100 C
EngineWaterTemp Hydraulic Range 0 to 140 C
EngineManifoldPress Mechanical Range -4.0 to +12.0 lbsqin
EngineRPM Electrical Range 1600 to 4000 RPM
Speedometer Mechanical Range 0 to 440 mph Pitot Pioneer
Altimeter Mechanical Dimension feet
Variometer Mechanical Range -4000 to 4000 feetperminute
MagneticCompass Mechanical JamAngle 12.5 deg
SlipIndicator Mechanical Amplitude 20.0 deg
TurnIndicator Mechanical Source Primary NominalTurnTime 2 min
ArtificialHorizon Mechanical Source Primary Pitch Range -60 to 60 deg Roll Range -181 to 181 deg
DirectionIndicator Mechanical Source Primary
FuelReserve Electrical Range 0 to 37 gal KraftstoffSwitching Selection 0 Shows FuelTank 0 Selection 1 Shows FuelTank 2 Selection 2 Shows FuelTank 1

GyroFeed Primary Pneumatic Secondary Nil

;
[Mass]
;

Empty 2495 kg
TakeOff 3311 kg
Fuel 427 litre
FuelTanks Aluminum 150 litre Aluminum 150 litre Aluminum 127 litre
FuelFillingOrder Tanks 0 1 Tank 2

;
[Squares]
;

Wing 23.92 m2
Aileron 1.78 m2
Flap 2.38 m2
Stabilizer 2.80 m2
Elevator 1.60 m2
Keel 0.90 m2
Rudder 1.40 m2

;
[Arm]
;

Aileron 4.56 m
Flap 1.65 m
Stabilizer 5.41 m
Keel 5.64 m
Elevator 6.12 m
Rudder 6.18 m
Wing_In 0.75 m
Wing_Mid 2.31 m
Wing_Out 4.69 m
GCenter 0.00 m
GCenterZ 0.00 m
GC_AOA_Shift 0.50 m
GC_Flaps_Shift 0.15 m
GC_Gear_Shift -0.1 m
Wing_V 3.0

;
[Params]
;

SpinCxLoss 0.08
SpinCyLoss 0.03

Vmin 150.0 kmh
Vmax 418.0 kmh
VmaxAllowed 700.0 kmh
VmaxH 527.0 kmh at 6100 m
VminFLAPS 130.0 kmh
VmaxFLAPS 250.0 kmh
Vz_climb 15.0 ms
V_climb 270.0 kmh
T_turn 19.0 sec
V_turn 290.0 kmh
K_max 13.0
FlapsMult 1.1
FlapsAngSh 4.0

RangeAbility 850 km

SensYaw 0.45
SensPitch 0.66
SensRoll 0.15

;
[Polares]
;

lineCyCoeff 0.090
AOAMinCx_Shift 1.4760736
Cy0_0 0.14
AOACritH_0 15.5
AOACritL_0 -15.0
CyCritH_0 1.1746255
CyCritL_0 -0.91520053
CxMin_0 0.0238
parabCxCoeff_0 7.5E-4
Cy0_1 0.4086449
AOACritH_1 14.5
AOACritL_1 -19.0
CyCritH_1 1.5095204
CyCritL_1 -0.7
CxMin_1 0.06892961
parabCxCoeff_1 9.2E-4

parabAngle 8.0
Decline 0.005
maxDistAng 40.0

Salute Feathered

Thanks for the info.

Do you have the extracted files for the other game aircraft?

What is the program used for extraction?

Thanks

[Feathered_IV]

Hi Buzzsaw, just saw your PM. ;)

In my first post there is link to the mod activator/extraction tool that you can use to access the game files. The download has instructions on how to use it too. When you use it you should find the files in the root game folder, _dump/$bob/Flight Models folder. I'm not near my pc at the moment though to upload.

[r0bc]

Steam shouldn't be a problem for mods, I've used racing games on there with mods, no problem.

[jimbop]

Steam shouldn't be a problem for mods, I've used racing games on there with mods, no problem.

Do you play them online or offline?

[r0bc]

Do you play them online or offline?


Online

[Nephris]

For the sake of a fair online playability I really hope so decent, the sequel sfs files will be crypted far off the standard Il 1946 encryption.
Otherwise we will have the same modded situation, we got the past 3 yrs of Il2 1946.

First wills are good for sure, but at the end this finalizes again in a customization of FMs as everyone thinks is correct or prophitable for himself.
I for sure dont blame anyone sneaking into the sfs files, as it is a childsplay to change and load em ingame, at this point MG must be blamed for not crypting their files properly.

Btw isnt changing the files versus MG genreal terms and conditions? Never read them to be honest, but i can remember there was a big disput in early time with Oleg regarding modding and opening his files.


However....Pandoras Box ........

[bisher]

MG genreal terms and conditions? Never read them to be honest

Nor have I, I'm still tring to get through Apple's 99 pages of terms and conditions. Dry read that ; )

[Anders_And]

Please can someone mod the trees and landscape to start with?!? I have no idea how to MOd but this kind of mod will not affect anyone except it will look better. Doesnt give anyone some sort of advandtage... I read that the trees have an extremely high resolution. Well i understand that if the game would also be made for ground vehicles but since that is not the case can somone lower the tree resolution to 512 maybe instead of 2048...(if i remember correctly) I dont think we will see the diff when we fly at 500km/h...
This might lower stuttering and increase FPS...

[GraveyardJimmy]

Please can someone mod the trees and landscape to start with?!? I have no idea how to MOd but this kind of mod will not affect anyone except it will look better. Doesnt give anyone some sort of advandtage...

What if someone modded their ground to be a blank white texture? They would have much better spotting than anyone else. A change in colour for one person might mean better spotting- this is why CloD uses VAC so that modified files get bans (I dont know if VAC is live on CloD yet). If people are going to play online they need to be seeing the same as everyone else to a large degree.

Similar problem in ARMA when people turned off grass so people in bushes were just plainly visible.

[SNAFU]

Great idea! Let´s diivide the 50 CloD online player into 5 different mod-groups, so everyone can enjoy his one-and-only-real-plane. Well, on the other hand, it doesn´t really matter, 50 players are not enough anyway. :rolleyes:

And it will finally happen, whatever we do, so why not control it...

[philip.ed]

The mods breathed new life into Il-2. I agree with Feathered_IV; when CloD is abandoned I can't see an issue with people modding the stand-alone game proper. It could improve it tenfold.

I'm sure all the online fliers who love the series will be itching to make use of BoM with CloD installed into it anyway, thus using a completely different game altogether.

[baronWastelan]

Sure, let the "Community" muck up CloD with mods and end up with a shambles like this:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d63/baronWastelan/2RC-mod_zpsb0d7f99e.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d63/baronWastelan/1RC-mod_zpse8161bae.jpg

[Anders_And]

Sure, let the "Community" muck up CloD with mods and end up with a shambles like this:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d63/baronWastelan/2RC-mod_zpsb0d7f99e.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d63/baronWastelan/1RC-mod_zpse8161bae.jpg

What am I supposed to look at here?!?

[LoBiSoMeM]

We don't need mods or community patches right now, the dev team finally is doing a good job.

When CloD standalone was "abandoned", we all will buy the next sequel with its content and improved engine, like "old" IL-2 series.

CloD is just a map with some planes and objects. The IL-2 series, now with new engine, always merged the content, and now people talk about "abandonware"...

Get a grip: IL-2 will not die soon!

Bye!

[Mysticpuma]

What am I supposed to look at here?!?

I think it shows the 'non dayglo' colours with less saturation?

I think?

[III/JG53_Don]

I thought he meant empty servers.... You in your spitfire with no one else around you :-D

[Ibis]

Well there are plenty still flying iL2 because COD is still a bloody shambles so I don't think you could make the situation any worse by making small improvements.
I for one simply can't be bothered getting deeply into it untill it's significantly improved, and I bought three copies to support the team. I wish them well.
Ibis.

[Anders_And]

I think it shows the 'non dayglo' colours with less saturation?

I think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=dHEN-zRPFGY

This is what it should look like!! (the landscape I mean)...

By the way, nice to meet you again MP!
Its me VA_Kling from warclouds... p51...

[Mysticpuma]

To quote (nearly) Disney "The Kling has returned!" ;)

Seriously I completely agree with you but I think you aught to beware as you may be opening:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TT81IaZhFYE/Tb_FBE-7ysI/AAAAAAAAAF4/zq1JRV4KAbc/s1600/textmining-worms-copy.jpg

I love GRAPHICS of WoP, but agree that as a Sim....the IL2 series rules the roost ;)

[Anders_And]

To quote (nearly) Disney "The Kling has returned!" ;)

Seriously I completely agree with you but I think you aught to beware as you may be opening:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TT81IaZhFYE/Tb_FBE-7ysI/AAAAAAAAAF4/zq1JRV4KAbc/s1600/textmining-worms-copy.jpg

I love GRAPHICS of WoP, but agree that as a Sim....the IL2 series rules the roost ;)

Yes i know.... But since IL21946 got ALOT better with community mods so can CLOD :) The community knows what needs to be fixed... The developers dont listen.. Its a win win!
And as I said, lowering the trees resolution to from 2048 to 1024 maybe might be a good start... Now.. I know NOTHING about mods so not sure it can be done...

[Chivas]

The game engine is still influx, modding would be folly at this time. If major improvements are made most people will move on to the Sequel. I would expect a coherent 50 person development crew who have the sim tools, and understanding of the game engine would be able to make more improvements in the next year or two than community modders. Whether or not the development survives, the time to mod would be after the Sequel. Thats not to say that some modding wouldn't work, if those mods can be integrated into the changes made by the developer in the Sequel.

Gaijin sims do look good overall, if you don't look too closely, but when you fly only a few minutes, a message flashes on the screen "you are leaving the battle area" and a minute more your automatically turned 180* is an immersion killer. It will be interesting to see if their future sims will have larger maps that can keep the overall decent look with decent performance. I think the COD terrain is just OK, but the development is still working on the terrain engine and tools that will allow the community to improve it as well. Even as is I prefer the size of the COD map and its more complex transportation infrastructure, which allows far more complex and immersive missions and campaigns. That said I hope Gaijin has learned from its previous sims and will have sim options that will attract the IL-2 community into buying their sim as well. This would be very good for the genre.

[McHilt]

I don't play CLoD, neither do I post here alot but may I add to Baronwastelan's observation that the colors in that shot look a bit like these HDRI images which are commonly found on flickr (not the HDRI images used to light a scene in 3D but another kind, they call 'm HDRI for whatever reason and they look somewhat unnatural)... just saying.

[David198502]

the killmarkings feature....i really miss that one, although its not the only feature which was completely taken out of f..... up.
any chance to get that feature back, with maybe a file which was just deleted during the patches?

[badfinger]

I don't have any problem with modding CoD, I think it would be a good thing. But, not if the modding is done as in IL2 1946, in which us computer illiterates are mostly kept from adding mods because of the contortions you have to go through to add something. I'm a flyer, not a computer guy.

If a CoD mod were to be as easy to add as a CoD patch, where you download a file and run it, that would be fine. But, having to deal with config ini's, etc. is just beyond me. I am trying, right now, to learn how to add IL2 1946 mods, because there are so many great addons available. If CoD mods can be done, please keep the process simple.

binky9

[s_goretsky]

I think every person who wants mod CloD should be like a doctor. First of all its "Do No Harm" Considering that I'm against changing flight models, planes durability or ammo effectiveness. However if we could find a 3D programmer who could fix some graphical issues (for example, make 7.92mm decals to not dissappear after some limit) and provide devs with fixed files, its possible that the community update could be officially added to steam.

[He111]

I prefer to keep legal with the developers, they spent all the money etc .. but i have no problems with mods, especially if it fixes bugs the developers have ignored (offline AI problems)

For the time being I'll back the Developers .. waiting for BOM and ignoring Mod options.

Most game developers want modders to continue interest in their games .. CA have just created modding tools for Shogun Total War and their next game - Rome 2 . 1C needs to look to other developers.

tick ... tick .. tick .. tick .. (hmm, I need some advantix)

.

[hiro]

Chivas has some good ideas, and feathered has a noble intent. Yet the reality is clod isn't fully abandoned and the il 2 series is just starting. The situation for 1946 was development was done as they were moving to Sow series.

Bom sequel will add to clod and if the devs deliver all the features, any mod wil be invalid. It's too early and people will get attached to their fav mods and the sequel and series won't support all the hard work and modders wil waste their time.

People will be divided regardless but I feel mods will give more opportunity and or solidify divisions .

It's a good intent but the series is starting and it's too early.

Plus the devs release tools and this allows them to have an idea of what is changed, use modular features and change critical components so sequels can use the mods or it's easier for the mods to be adapted easier.


And the devs don't have time to release The tools

[GF_Mastiff]

glinting off the cockpit glass when aircraft pass the sun rays, I see often in you tub videos of people view from cockpit with enemy planes in the distance, and can see the sun-rays glinting off their cockpits. I do not see this in my current game.