Friday the 14th Development Update

[luthier]

Hello everyone,

It’s been too long since I’ve posted on here. Black Six has been doing such a good job managing the forums and interacting with the community that it really allowed me to sit back and just focus on managing the product.

I apologize if my absence has upset some of you. I know the community adores wild rumors, but we’re all still here, and we’re working very hard on making the Il-2 series better.

However as you might have guessed, the brunt of the team’s efforts has gradually shifted to the sequels. I know many of you won’t be happy, and neither are we. Cliffs of Dover is still not the product we are happy with or proud of. Unfortunately, as all businesses we have goals, budgets, profits, losses, expenses, and wages. We have milestones to meet with our future products, and we just cannot miss those.

So for the past two weeks the team has been working hard on delivering a stable, working milestone for the sequel.

The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.

Are we happy with that? No. But we simply cannot continue to support and grow Cliffs of Dover while also trying to ensure our sequels are released on time and are sufficiently polished. I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation. Most of you have probably guessed that Cliffs of Dover was not exactly the most profitable project in the world, and for at least the past year supporting it did nothing for the bottom line but put it deeper into the red.

Having said all that, Alexander sent me a short list of the most commonly asked questions. So here are the answers.

1) When do you expect to have full-featured anti-aliasing?
We still didn’t get to that task as our graphic programmers still have a pile of even higher priority issues to cover. So, not in the next patch.

2) Will the next patch be fully NVidia certified, and will it have Crossfire support?
NVidia – definitely. CF – still TBD.

3) Will there be a complete readme?
Yes!

4) What’s the status of the Su-26 and the SDKs?
We will most likely include the Su-26 in the final patch for free. The SDKs, we really want to release at least the map-making SDK to the public “as is”, which is why they’re not covered by the next patch v. sequels discussion. However simply packing up the source code into a package that can be released to the public is a somewhat lengthy task that can only be done by our lead programmer. Once he’s done putting out the fires, and once the patch is out the door, we’ll find a way to squeeze that into his schedule.

With that, I'm out. I'll be back at the end of the day to answer more of your questions.

[BlackSix]

Special thread for your questions:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34369

[GraveyardJimmy]

Thanks for the honest post. Sad news. Perhaps after the sequel comes out some more work could be retrofitted to CloD.

Any word on what the big feature that hasn't been done before was going to be?

[JG52Krupi]

Good to hear from you again luthier, thanks.

[Mysticpuma]

"The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it."

Great news! At least future updates will incorporate and update CLOD.

Thanks for this important information for future development.

Cheers, MP

[FG28_Kodiak]

"The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it."

All i want to hear :grin::grin::grin::grin:

[Ploughman]

Looking forward to the SU 26 (probably). Thanks for the update, and later the update to the update.

[naz]

...
The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.



I cant speak for anyone else, but this part is important for me. Hopefully you can get the sequel to the level you and we hope for and Cliffs will therefore also benefit.

Good luck and cheers.

EDIT: lol ... just saw the posts above mine saying essentially the same thing posted as I was typing.

[banned]

The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch.

And how long are we looking at for this to happen?

If only you told us all of this ages ago. Might have stopped those 'wild rumours' you reckon we like, such as 'they're not working on CloD' etc.

[csThor]

Predictable because of the realities of business. I just hope that the powers that be at 1C (= those with the ties and the money) realize just how much porcellain has been smashed by this release. Before CloD many people would have bought any sequel without a thorough test, after CloD the sequel(s) will have to be everything that CloD was not: a finished, well-rounded simulation with working engine, offline gameplay part and not too many bugs. Otherwise they will rot in the shelves. :-?

[Falstaff]

Luthier said:

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation.

No, not agree I'm afraid. One disaster heaped on another.

Perhaps some concessionary truth about the past would earn goodwill for the future. Glossing over things and putting standard-issue spin on the situation helps no-one.

Black Six has been doing such a good job managing the forums and interacting with the community that it really allowed me to sit back and just focus on managing the product.

BlackSix has been the fire buffer between the forum and the devs and placed in a very difficult position, and sometimes made to look ridiculous (perhaps through no fault of his own, and nothing to do with his command of English). The answers he has given (or been allowed to give) have been oddly-worded, idiosyncratic, sometimes evasive, sometimes oddly whimsical, sometimes banal, and have often turned out to be factually incorrect.

This is suggests the supply of information to Blacksix has not been thought out very well, if at all. It also suggests a distinct lack of anythign resembling coherent project management.

The number of dissenting voices on here is not high, so I thought they should be adequately represented. In short the reaction to Clod has been awful, not that you would often guess it from this forum in recent months. This is a fact, not a slight against the forum.

[theOden]

Thank you, now I know I can safely uninstall Dover.

[BGs_Ricky]

The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.

Thanks for clarifying this important point !

[Varrattu]

... ... I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/icons/icon13.gif

No, I do not agree with you.

Regards Varrattu

[Tree_UK]

Black Six or Luthier, are you going to still answer the questions in the Q&A thread or is this it??

[Drum_tastic]

Tree- read a bit closer mate, he said he will be back later

[Winger]

Sorry. I am german and so i am unsure if i got this right.
Whats correct?

CloD will receive no update from now on until the release of the not even officially announced sequel?
OR
Clod will get its release patch via steam and THEN it will only get a new patch with the release of the sequel?

Winger

[BlackSix]

Black Six or Luthier, are you going to still answer the questions in the Q&A thread or is this it??

Luthier will answer in the Q&A thread (or in the new thread) in some hours.

[banned]

Sorry. I am german and so i am unsure if i got this right.
Whats correct?

CloD will receive no update from now on until the release of the not even officially announced sequel?
OR
Clod will get its release patch via steam and THEN it will only get a new patch with the release of the sequel?

Winger
One patch then sequel

[Tree_UK]

Cliffs of Dover is still not the product we are happy with or proud of. Unfortunately, as all businesses we have goals, budgets, profits, losses, expenses, and wages. We have milestones to meet with our future products, and we just cannot miss those.

You forgot a very important part of running a business here Luthier, you missed out the word 'CUSTOMERS'. After selling us this product with no mention of any of the problems that you were fully aware of you should put your CUSTOMERS before anything else. You have failed to do that in my honest opinion, your priority for the last 18 months should have been all hands on deck fixing what you sold us rather than concentrating on your next money making scheme.

[III/JG53_Don]

Same opinion here: the possibility to merge CloD and the sequel is all I want to hear of the future development of the series :-)

[kendo65]

The strange thing is that it was already said months ago (by luthier) that the sequel would install on top of COD and update it (and that it would also be a standalone product for those who didn't have COD), yet somehow in the intervening period that all became open to doubt again...I think because B6 felt he did not have authority to comment about it when asked in various threads...crazy?!

So, I'm glad that people are relieved to have it confirmed but it's not news to me.

[kiwikillemoff]

:)

[MadTommy]

Please god let them release a decent patch!

Surely you realise you must fix the major CloD issues and win back potential customers with a strong final version of CloD. Dropping it now will spell disaster for any sequel, with only a small dedicated number buying it.

The future looks decidedly dodgy.

[planespotter]

luthier said:



No, not agree i'm afraid. One disaster heaped on another.

Perhaps some concessionary truth about the past would earn goodwill for the future. Glossing over things and putting standard-issue spin on the situation helps no-one.



Blacksix has been the fire buffer between the forum and the devs and placed in a very difficult position, and sometimes made to look ridiculous (perhaps through no fault of his own, and nothing to do with his command of english). The answers he has given (or been allowed to give) have been oddly-worded, idiosyncratic, sometimes evasive, sometimes oddly whimsical, sometimes banal, and have often turned out to be factually incorrect.

This is suggests the supply of information to blacksix has not been thought out very well, if at all. It also suggests a distinct lack of anythign resembling coherent project management.

The number of dissenting voices on here is not high, so i thought they should be adequately represented. In short the reaction to clod has been awful, not that you would often guess it from this forum in recent months. This is a fact, not a slight against the forum.

+1000

Support for fixing CloD has not been good (compare yourselves to Rise of Flight, or DCS? You cannot) - still the game has not the features promised on launch, i won't list the huge list of things broken or missing we all know them, and now you expect people will buy your sequel? You say yourself you are not proud of it.

Sorry but I must conclude 1C does not live on the same planet as we players (and, I point out, PAYERS).

To discuss the work on CloD as dragging down your bottom line and sending into the red, please reconsider. Fixing CloD is an investment in your future, encourage people to buy your sequel. Why should they when you do not fix what is broken, it will be the same for the sequel.

UNLESS YOU MAKE THE SEQUEL FREE OR BIG DISCOUNT FOR PLAYERS WHO MADE THE MISTAKE TO BUY CLOD.

[maki4444]

I like you because you brought COD which is an Improvement to IL2. It really is. People how say it's not are just fooling themselves. Give the final patch and the community will do the rest with mods and addons like DESASTERSOFT.

Keep doing the fantastic work of keeping the sim world ALIVE.

I would love to see an eastern front as well as the pacific in the future. BUsiness is business and I understand that you can't run a company based on dreams.

just m 2 cents that I hope all of you wonderful Russians will read. I feel that most of the mature and reasonable community will understand your position.

Don't pay attention to the posts like : no one will buy the sequel

Yes they will. All true Flight sim fans will buy

Thanks for all the support

I am mostly happy because you will stick it out with the patch untuil the very end.

[Stirwenn]

As some Posts above, Luthier.
Thanks for the comm.
One question : how could you expect to me buying your sequel if you do not fix the basis of original product ? Give me a proof to trust in you.

[Trumper]

+1000

Support for fixing CloD has not been good (compare yourselves to Rise of Flight, or DCS? You cannot) - still the game has not the features promised on launch, i won't list the huge list of things broken or missing we all know them, and now you expect people will buy your sequel? You say yourself you are not proud of it.

Sorry but I must conclude 1C does not live on the same planet as we players (and, I point out, PAYERS).

To discuss the work on CloD as dragging down your bottom line and sending into the red, please reconsider. Fixing CloD is an investment in your future, encourage people to buy your sequel. Why should they when you do not fix what is broken, it will be the same for the sequel.

UNLESS YOU MAKE THE SEQUEL FREE OR BIG DISCOUNT FOR PLAYERS WHO MADE THE MISTAKE TO BUY CLOD.

Agreed ,i am afraid i won't be buying the sequel on the whim,i will wait and see but to be honest i really can't see how you can expect people to buy the sequel .

[kristorf]

All I can really say is 'we will see', so many knock backs already for the forgotten segment in this farce, the customer, that I will believe it when its out and working.

However, if I am reading this properly there will be a patch for CLoD, that will fix some of it, but for the finished product (paid for many months ago) we will need to shell out more £/$?

[Stublerone]

Oh my god!!! :(

I am just guessing many things in luthiers post, but for me personally, that is really the hit in the neck of the il2series.

My comments:
1.) Answered question are nearly the same as his last post and nearly all answers are really of low priority. AA? = not essential! Su-26? = nowhere near essential! and SLI? = waste of time until the whole game gets better engine.

2.) Engine: My claim is, that simply nobody will ever know, if you really rewrote it! For most of my mates it simply looks like taking away features and try out the best feature set. It is 100% sure for me, that the newsteam patch will tell us some truth. If this patch is not sufficient and just an official release of the current beta with some reimplemented features, this will be the end of trust in their abilities. And that from me, who always stayed calm. This will be the killer and if you do not release BoM soon and with a big test version for free, noone will ever buy the sequel instantly.

So, if this patch and the sequel are not 100% evolution of current state, the il2 series seems to be dying. :(

@luthier: please give information of the official patch. This is the question, which everyone wants to know immediately. Otherwise I am really afraid, that this post can be the last drop of water, which is needed to lose a big part of your customers. I feel a bit fooled, because you instantly answered totally non-essential questions.

Sorry, but feed us with the patch info, readme or something else.

We cannot see all things, that you see in development. So I am a little bit more defensive with your sentence about support in comparison to other games. I just say, that a big question is, if your staff is really able to serve a fast support on such a game? This is offensive, but this question is now burning in my mind. It seems, that efforts are made too slow. If this is not true, you should serve us with information, which shows your efforts and explains complexity. Otherwise it is soon over, as noone understands anymore, why so few efforts impact so late and in such a quality.

Blacksix: thanks for all your work on the frontlines. Today it should be luthiers time to explain. Hope he will explain essential things to put out the biggest fire: "trust of customers"! The initial post here was only salt into the wounds.

How do we say in Germany: "Hosen runter!" ("Trowsers down please!") ;) This is exactly the time!

[addman]

The strange thing is that it was already said months ago (by luthier) that the sequel would install on top of COD and update it (and that it would also be a standalone product for those who didn't have COD), yet somehow in the intervening period that all became open to doubt again...I think because B6 felt he did not have authority to comment about it when asked in various threads...crazy?!

So, I'm glad that people are relieved to have it confirmed but it's not news to me.

LOL! weird isn't it?! That wasn't news to me, they've already explained in an older Q&A that old il-2 series release model will be used in the new series. You see some people spend so much time here yet know nothing, boggles the mind. Nice to hear from you again though luthier, thought the code had jumped out of your monitor and sucked you in to the matrix itself there for a while.

Please re-consider implementing some sort of "classic" coop interface though if you really want the sequel to have better longevity, also try not to neglect us offline players this time around. We actually might want to play that sequel of yours also, not just having it sit on a shelf collecting dust.

[Winger]

One patch then sequel

Thanks. I can live with that!

Winger

[bongodriver]

Nobody asks the obvious question to ease some of the rampant speculation, Luthier, will you continue to support CLOD independently with updates 'AFTER' the release of a sequel?

[icarus]

All I can really say is 'we will see', so many knock backs already for the forgotten segment in this farce, the customer, that I will believe it when its out and working.

However, if I am reading this properly there will be a patch for CLoD, that will fix some of it, but for the finished product (paid for many months ago) we will need to shell out more £/$?

+1

Pulling that business model on Wall Street will get you jail time.

[zapatista]

Luthier,

thx for the news update

please make sure the FM and DM of the allied CoD planes continue to be improved and corrected, there are some major issues there that need to be addressed for the CoD sim in that theater to have any value

[Herbs107]

Arent you people reading the same forum as eveyone else? They have stated one more patch and then no further support for CLOD! Please stop saying thank you, and then asking for something to be fixed. THEY COULDNT GIVE A WHAT WE/YOU WANT AND THEY HAVE JUST PROVED IT... There is no way in the world I would buy there next crappy bugged product. It looks like DCS and other professional developers have my vote and support.

[SlipBall]

@Luthier, good to see you here again!...your post is unclear to me, just to clarify, no patch for Clod till sequel release?..thanks:)

[bongodriver]

@Luthier, good to see you here again!...your post is unclear to me, just to clarify, no patch for Clod till sequel release?..thanks:)

No, one final patch for CLOD and then further updates with release of sequel.

[Ploughman]

F off!!!! this is bollocks... We have been shafted, its obvious there is no other way to put it. You kiss arses give up and admit it!!!

Well yes, this has been obvious for quite some time. So, what are you going to do? File a class action suit? Lament the waste of a small amount of money and call it a day on CloD and its sequels (assuming there actually are any)? Or venture a bit more on the sequel in the hope that maybe this bag of balls eventually gets rolling?

Me, I'll buy the sequel because there's no alternative to this bag of balls at the moment and the £30 it'll cost me is bugger all in the grand scheme of things. One thing's for sure, if nobody buys the sequel, then that really is it.

[kristorf]

I must admit I cannot understand all the 'Thanks for the (no news) updates'?.

It says very little really that hasn't been thrown out there before and basically says 'give us more of your money if you want it to work'..

[Skoshi Tiger]

"The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it."

Great news! At least future updates will incorporate and update CLOD.

Thanks for this important information for future development.

Cheers, MP

"The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it."

All i want to hear :grin::grin::grin::grin:

I cant speak for anyone else, but this part is important for me. Hopefully you can get the sequel to the level you and we hope for and Cliffs will therefore also benefit.

Good luck and cheers.

Thanks for clarifying this important point !

+1

On going support and development for the series. Sounds Great! Can't wait for the next update.

[SlipBall]

No, one final patch for CLOD and then further updates with release of sequel.


Thank you bongo...you are a lawyer?:lol:

[kendo65]

@Luthier, good to see you here again!...your post is unclear to me, just to clarify, no patch for Clod till sequel release?..thanks:)

No, one final patch for CLOD and then further updates with release of sequel.

lol!! This is starting to remind me of that episode of Fawlty Towers where Basil tries to explain to the guests that there will shortly be a fire drill...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r8X3Z-t8bc

Bongodriver's interpretation is correct here Slipball.

[BGs_Ricky]

Me, I'll buy the sequel because there's no alternative to this bag of balls at the moment and the £30 it'll cost me is bugger all in the grand scheme of things. One thing's for sure, if nobody buys the sequel, then that really is it.

+1

Hope is the last to die. I don't say I'm happy about the whole COD affair, but in the end I've spent the same amount of money for stuff that I enjoyed even far less than COD :-P

[mungee]

Thank you Luthier - I'm 100% behind you and, as a financial person, I understand that the sums have to work!!

I, like so many out there (perhaps silent), wish you and your team great success - IL-2 has given us so much enjoyment and I'm sure that CoD, and its sequels, will do likewise.

[Ibis]

Well it's as I said before they've had a hampster squillering away in some forgotten corner tinkering with COD while the real work has been on the sequel. Its simple business sense to go after something that may pay the bills.
My concern is about the deceit and non disclosure of the real state of affairs and allowing the resentment to build up in its core customer base.
Bad karma.

[Viking]

[QUOTE=kristorf;460752]I must admit I cannot understand '

I know I know!

[JG52Krupi]

+1

Hope is the last to die. I don't say I'm happy about the whole COD affair, but in the end I've spent the same amount of money for stuff that I enjoyed even far less than COD :-P

Thank you Luthier - I'm 100% behind you and, as a financial person, I understand that the sums have to work!!

I, like so many out there (perhaps silent), wish you and your team great success - IL-2 has given us so much enjoyment and I'm sure that CoD, and its sequels, will do likewise.

Well it's as I said before they've had a hampster squillering away in some forgotten corner tinkering with COD while the real work has been on the sequel. Its simple business sense to go after something that may pay the bills.
My concern is about the deceit and non disclosure of the real state of affairs and allowing the resentment to build up in its core customer base.
Bad karma.

+1 to all of you :D

[Lurker_71]

RIP CloD. :|

I sure will wait a long time before purchasing the sequel to ensure it is not another dud, assuming of course that the zealous support that some have here for this studio will be sufficient to keep MG afloat that long.

[Fergal69]

The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.



Being an optimist, does this mean a sequel is near to being released?

I for one, am happy that I can now fly over London on medium settings without freezing after updating to Windows 7 64bit.

[bongodriver]

Thank you bongo...you are a lawyer?:lol:


I wish I was.....I'd be rich.

Luthiers statement


The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it


The bit in red means 'AFTER' the release of the final CLOD patch.

[steeldelete]

This is good news!

The show will go on

there will be a patch

there will be a sequel

there will be many more posts to read

[JtD]

You forgot a very important part of running a business here Luthier, you missed out the word 'CUSTOMERS'. After selling us this product with no mention of any of the problems that you were fully aware of you should put your CUSTOMERS before anything else. You have failed to do that in my honest opinion, your priority for the last 18 months should have been all hands on deck fixing what you sold us rather than concentrating on your next money making scheme.LOL, where do you live? In the real world it is you don't make money, you're out. Team scattered, and not a single patch for anyone this way. Meeting deadlines for milestones is a necessity in business, and I'm pretty sure if the choice was up to luthier and his crew, it would be different.

Maybe you can change the deadline for the next milestone if you write a nice letter to luthiers bosses, but I'm fairly certain they will only appreciate it for comical value.

[superman]

One and a half year after release and people are still writing posts claming that they have no interest in this game or will not buy the sequel.

Funny :-)

[Tree_UK]

LOL, where do you live? In the real world it is you don't make money, you're out. Team scattered, and not a single patch for anyone this way. Meeting deadlines for milestones is a necessity in business, and I'm pretty sure if the choice was up to luthier and his crew, it would be different.

Maybe you can change the deadline for the next milestone if you write a nice letter to luthiers bosses, but I'm fairly certain they will only appreciate it for comical value.

Glad you find it funny, but I suspect because of the awful mess that is CLOD and the amount of time it has taken to still not fix it, and the missing features and the dumbing down of graphics, the poor netcode, the lack of coop's, poor campaign's, the broken GUI in single player etc etc, that the sales of the sequel will reflect what I consider to be rather shoddy treatment from the dev's. If you consider the above to be good for business then you are deluded.

[kestrel79]

The strange thing is that it was already said months ago (by luthier) that the sequel would install on top of COD and update it (and that it would also be a standalone product for those who didn't have COD), yet somehow in the intervening period that all became open to doubt again...I think because B6 felt he did not have authority to comment about it when asked in various threads...crazy?!

So, I'm glad that people are relieved to have it confirmed but it's not news to me.

I remember hearing this too Kendo. This was announced months ago. But I think all the rumors and speculation about the sequel being an MMO made people think it could be something completely new and leave CoD out in the dust. Good to hear that's not the case.

Remember a few months ago when this board thought the plug was being pulled? This place is insane. But that's what happens when you get minimal updates.

[David Hayward]

Glad you find it funny, but I suspect because of the awful mess that is CLOD and the amount of time it has taken to still not fix it, and the missing features and the dumbing down of graphics, the poor netcode, the lack of coop's, poor campaign's, the broken GUI in single player etc etc, that the sales of the sequel will reflect what I consider to be rather shoddy treatment from the dev's. If you consider the above to be good for business then you are deluded.

No matter how hard they try they just can't get you to leave.

[csThor]

Look Tree ... when luthier's bosses put down their foot and demand a resource switch to something that may bring fresh revenue as opposed to something that doesn't he is not in the position to refuse. Unless you're your own boss you are in a similar state of dependence to those who pay your wages.

For the people who make such decisions at 1C the question of longetivity of a gaming genre or a certain branch of software is of secondary importance (it may be nice but only to bind customers and perhaps generate more money). If the sequel is another dud and fails to generate income they will simply move on to other projects and either reassign Maddox Games to something that's potentially profitable (like some shooter spin-off for the brain-dead) or close MG as a department for good. 1C isn't going to die because Il-2 CloD hasn't been up to specs, it's just a financial loss - nothing more. These suits don't really care about what customers of past titles think, they look for return of their investments and if anyone who has already paid is unhappy then it's too bad for that person. Don't you watch real life news and know what business is like? :roll:

[BH_woodstock]

You forgot a very important part of running a business here Luthier, you missed out the word 'CUSTOMERS'. After selling us this product with no mention of any of the problems that you were fully aware of you should put your CUSTOMERS before anything else. You have failed to do that in my honest opinion, your priority for the last 18 months should have been all hands on deck fixing what you sold us rather than concentrating on your next money making scheme.

well said.I feel used and cheated.You promised us a game and we took the bait based on il2's past history.You then took a beautiful sim and ruined it and promising us a fix it all this time and knowing it would never happen.Shame on you.you cannot sell a product and then say we will fix it if you buy the next version.that is poppycock.


since you guys have not kept ONE promise. and not fixed anything.How about releasing the tools so we can do it ourselves.(this was also promised by Oleg himself)He said the tools will be released.There are guys here that can fix this game (modding community)So with that being said...Thanks for nothing.Do the right thing and release the tools so the game will be fixed.Be honorable after all that is what this community is based on we should except nothing less.

i will buy the next version only because i am still hopeful.but i still feel jipped.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Caveat emptor.

[kendo65]

Being an optimist, does this mean a sequel is near to being released?

...

A week or two back B6 mentioned it reaching alpha in 2013, so not that close.

[JtD]

Glad you find it funny, but I suspect because of the awful mess that is CLOD and the amount of time it has taken to still not fix it, and the missing features and the dumbing down of graphics, the poor netcode, the lack of coop's, poor campaign's, the broken GUI in single player etc etc, that the sales of the sequel will reflect what I consider to be rather shoddy treatment from the dev's. If you consider the above to be good for business then you are deluded.Not good for business, but beats out of business.

I think the sales of the sequel will mostly reflect that they go back to the Eastern front, cater the home market, which is what made Il-2 successful in the first place. If they get it right that time, all the trouble with CloD won't matter much. Commercially. And that's why luthier has no options but to meet the deadlines.

[gec]

i have to say that i'm very disappointed. :(

The game was released and sold as a product while it was just a half a product. Few patches released did not rise it to the product it should be.

Now, to get a product i all ready payed for i need to buy more?

that's maybe called business in Russia but in the rest of the world that's called fraud.

[planespotter]

A week or two back B6 mentioned it reaching alpha in 2013, so not that close.

Yes, so to those who say this is such good news for Cliffs of Dover because improvements in the sequel will be backed into CloD, what this means is maybe, yes

...in 2014 or later!!

Who is going to care, two years from now, serious?

[312_Jura]

hope you will offer refunds if the last patch turns to be not enough to make it a fully working product..

[HamishUK]

Was it going to be any other way?

What an absolute car-crash of a release over a year ago....

That's me done with 1C. Shame as the community is so passionate about aircraft and yet for some reason 1C could not do something easy as follow up on a success story that was IL2....it baffles the mind.

[the Dutchman]

The sequel is free of charge i assume?
Take a good look at http://riseofflight.com/en and learn..

[lokitexas]

Cracks me up that people are backing this company.

See, in business, when you dont deliver on what you say, you dont make money.

You dont deserve to be sucessful when you put out broken products. Personally, its the devs fault CLoD was a mess. Obviously, not up to the task. Nobodys fault but theirs.

Sob story of "We have supported our product more than most companies" LOL. If it wasnt such a pile of crap, you wouldnt have to still be trying to fix things over a year later.

If you didnt understand my feelings of this new...I will not buy crap from these folks. Too many other companies that put customer first, that release quality, working products.

[David Hayward]

If you didnt understand my feelings of this new...I will not buy crap from these folks. Too many other companies that put customer first, that release quality, working products.

I do understand why you won't buy crap. I don't understand why you are spamming a message board for a company that you have declared that you won't support.

[GraveyardJimmy]

Too many other companies that put customer first, that release quality, working products.

Lots of ww2 flight simulations out with current generation graphics?

[Trumper]

No matter how hard they try they just can't get you to leave.
Give it a rest
Shame you and a few others who bow at the feet of the developers didn't do likewise.
You have it in writing from Luthier himself that Clod is effectively finished and they are working on the sequel yet you still have to have a go at Tree:rolleyes:

[lokitexas]

Lots of ww2 flight simulations out with current generation graphics?

Sadly no. War Thunder was my last hope, and that went down in flames from playing the beta.

As much as I like WWII era aviation, it just seems it aint happeing with 1C.

[David Hayward]

Give it a rest
Shame you and a few others who bow at the feet of the developers didn't do likewise.
You have it in writing from Luthier himself that Clod is effectively finished and they are working on the sequel yet you still have to have a go at Tree:rolleyes:

If it's all over, why are you still here?

[louisv]

And here we go ....

[Trumper]

If it's all over, why are you still here?

Because i have as much right to voice my opinions on this farce as a paying customer as you have to preach your views through rose coloured glasses.

[lokitexas]

Because i have as much right to voice my opinions on this farce as a paying customer as you have to preach your views through rose coloured glasses.

Agreed.

[David Hayward]

Because i have as much right to voice my opinions on this farce as a paying customer as you have to preach your views through rose coloured glasses.

Why would you want to? You apparently feel it's over. Find something else to do.

[Redroach]

Nothing new, move along. Some minor, but apparently within-the-programmers-reach issues will be adressed (in some time...) for the publicity value. Yet, of course, nothing about the real problems - the fact that e.g. the prop pitch key(s) in the Me-109 are the wrong way around for quite some time now speaks its own language, and then some.

I mean, by fixing the biggest issues - and I mean really fixing, not just stating it in the rare readme files -, they could have restored their reputation by a huge margin, since the community in these forums here have a very, VERY high patience treshold. But - yeah, what can one say? They just aren't capable of doing this. The fact that internal pressure regarding the addon seems to be rising also speaks its own language...

[kristorf]

Got to seven pages before the insults and slagging started, getting better.

Good little boys :rolleyes:

[102.VO_Herr_Laca]

Luthier!
You may wait for my money! :)
You starve to death then! XD

[zander]

This will be the killer and if you do not release BoM soon and with a big test version for free, noone will ever buy the sequel instantly.

Hm?
I would.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.
Sounds great to me!

That aproach worked great for IL-2 for over 10+ years so I look forward to CoD sequals for the next 10+ years

[von Brühl]

Luthier,

If your team cannot fix this first game, and give us what was originally promised/expected, what is there to show us that the new game will be any better, and worth our support, dedication, and more importantly, our money?

[zander]

The sequel is free of charge i assume?
Take a good look at http://riseofflight.com/en and learn..

How to screw up?
If that were to be the new business model I'm out.

[skarden]

I think all the people who "feel cheated and used" need to get a little prospective, I assume you've never gone out for a night on turps spent a couple of hundreds dollars and had nothing to show fow it but a crackin hangover, the small amount I paid for CLOD compare the enjoyment I've gotten out of it is a bargain IMHO, not to mention the support to the company it gave to continue making the ONLY modern WWII flight sim out there, again easily worth it.

Is it perfect ? hell no, but it'll get refined and refined till it is amazing I've no doubt, Ic's track record supports this idea.

How hard is it to have a little faith in a comany that made IL2 - 1946 into the astounding sim it is? I'll e getting the sequel and any that come after it .

[csThor]

The sequel is free of charge i assume?
Take a good look at http://riseofflight.com/en and learn..

A very limited demo (just to prove it's working) - yes. But paying for every burp at every turn? Nah, thanks's I'll pass.

[Bobby385]

don't panic
I think that the Battle of Moscow should cost 1 Euro for us that have Cliffs of Dover

[David Hayward]

don't panic
I think that the Battle of Moscow should cost 1 Euro for us that have Cliffs of Dover

If you think that's going to happen you should probably start to panic.

[GraveyardJimmy]

don't panic
I think that the Battle of Moscow should cost 1 Euro for us that have Cliffs of Dover

I think there should be a discount, even if it is just £5-10 or 10%. It is possible to do this in steam, STALKER did it by checking if your steam account owns an earlier one then giving you coupons. Since it is a steam game this would be possible for BoM and I think it should happen though I realise it is unlikely.

[zander]

I think there should be a discount, even if it is just £5-10 or 10%. It is possible to do this in steam, STALKER did it by checking if your steam account owns an earlier one then giving you coupons. Since it is a steam game this would be possible for BoM and I think it should happen though I realise it is unlikely.

why?
Do you get any discount on Cod, Arma, MW?
No.

I mean seriously, our equipment needed for this hobby is in the 4digit range - an you complain about 5quid?

[FS~Phat]

Guys please try behave...
I know the news isnt all good, but please have a little respect.
Some of you were banging on about how Luthier should front up.... and he has with complete humility admitted that Clod was not what anyone wanted, least of all the team that developed it.

They would have clearly loved to do more for this theatre of ops but commercial realities unfortunately exist.

It certainly not ideal that we have been paying alpha/beta customers, but I personally think its a small price to pay to keep the series alive. I know they are counting on the goodwill of the community too, which is in itself not a great thing, but we are where we are, and at least we have the chance to hopefully experience the full beauty of this series in the sequel and following sequels.

Certainly this particular theatre and release was a loss for the business, so we are very lucky that they even considered fixing any of it. That is fact.

If they didn't have the financial support of the parent 1C and Luthier's determination, this would have been shut up shop long ago and there wouldnt even be a sequel. We all know that.

So while we dont have the final product we were all promised and hoping for in Clod, at least we have a future to look forward to. Because the other option is to drop it all together, and many businesses would have done exactly that if it wasnt for the commitment and passion for the series.

It's also been made pretty clear that the sequel will be some sort of merge install where the sequel will follow in the footsteps of the old IL2 series where you get the benefits of the sequel flowing down into the previous theatres of operation.

The MMO??? Who knows what it was or even if it will be. My guess is it was a spin off idea and we may or may not see it, but we will certainly see a sequel and thats all im interested in. Because I will get the features and gameplay we all want, and so what if it costs me another $50... I spent $100 on plenty of PS3 and XBOX console games that only last 2-3 weeks of gameplay, IL2 is a series that most of us play for 5 to 10 years... so its cheap gaming in my books even at $200.. ;)

[GraveyardJimmy]

why?
Do you get any discount on Cod, Arma, MW?
No.

I mean seriously, our equipment needed for this hobby is in the 4digit range - an you complain about 5quid?

As way of an apology to the fans that were let down and the fact that to be perfectly honest CloD support is being dropped before the product is finalised. Obviously it depends on the final patch but if they leave CloD with many broken features (such as AI and sound amongst other bugs, like revered mixture) then say that unless you buy the sequel these wont be fixed then the people who bought CloD from day one deserve easier access to updates that will fix the game.

This from someone who has been very supportive of CloD throughout. Another option would be to continue with sequel and retro fit patches to CloD but leave additional features out- that way those who pay for the finished product get it whilst those who pay for new features get those on top. As I said, this is all dependant on the quality of the last patch.

CoD comes out from and AAA developer and gets is bugs fixed. ARMA 2 has beta patch support daily and is being supported over 3 years later with these patches. Also, ARMA 2 base game gets patches despite the appearance of AMRA2:OA. That is what I think should happen with CloD as I stated above.

[MadTommy]

+1 FS~Phat's sentiment.

I just want good flight simulations. CloD fell short so far.. but at least there is still some hope.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation.

You should have to stop the work on it since the day one, instead of waste so many months with CoD. So, personally i agree with you 100% but we have wasted too much time however (again!), waiting for an improvement that has never been released....in 18 months!

[GraveyardJimmy]

You should have to stop the work on it since the day one, instead of waste so many months with CoD. So, personally i agree with you 100% but we have wasted too much time however (again!), waiting for an improvement that has never been released....in 18 months!

That wouldnt have been useful seeing as the engine is shared between the two games! All work on CloD engine will fit into BoM and (hopefully) vice-versa.

[superman]

I think the developers should offer a money back policy on the condition that the recipient has his steam account blocked so he can never buy any Storm of war related title ever again.

How many would dare to take that offer?

But it would definitely shut people up :-)

[lokitexas]

Why should a business succeed when they fail at making a product? If a diner served horrible food, but the owner kept promising it will get better soon, and it doesnt, how long will it stay in business?

Sorry, no love loss here. When I want to donate, it goes to a charity, not to a team that cannot make (or fix) a product released over a year ago.

Everyone has opinions, and if you feel the need to support them, its your choice. I dont agree with it, but I also know I dont control anyone eles way of thinking.

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the state of mind of people thinking they the devs are doing a good thing. How is a crappy product that never reached its potential, features left out, buggy, with plans to end support for it, and then annouce a sequal be good? First product was crap, how about a second? Boggles the mind.

[addman]

Gonna add a few more thoughts before this thread gets locked. 1. Having "supported" the game for some time after release is not the same has having supported it WELL. Duration of support and substance of support are not the same. 2. A business model that worked as late as last year even, might not cut it anymore, when big developers like Epic are being "forced" to make free-to-play titles to be able to keep up with the competition then you -as a game developer- has to realize that times have changed. Game are literally everywhere and on every device theses days, asking prices for some really cool games are less than a dollar, it's hard to justify the €40+ price tag.

Let's all hope -and pray- that the sequel will be what the devs originally intended CloD to be because I'm sure they aren't happy with the way CloD ended up, oh wait! luthier just said so himself.:)

[150GCT_Veltro]

That wouldnt have been useful seeing as the engine is shared between the two games! All work on CloD engine will fit into BoM and (hopefully) vice-versa.

An open beta, we know it...or better, an open beta first and an open alpha later.

We'll see but i really hope the engine will be much different from what we have seen in CoD, because this graphic is far to be the best one for the next sim generation.

[David Hayward]

Why should a business succeed when they fail at making a product? If a diner served horrible food, but the owner kept promising it will get better soon, and it doesnt, how long will it stay in business?

Sorry, no love loss here. When I want to donate, it goes to a charity, not to a team that cannot make (or fix) a product released over a year ago.

Everyone has opinions, and if you feel the need to support them, its your choice. I dont agree with it, but I also know I dont control anyone eles way of thinking.

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the state of mind of people thinking they the devs are doing a good thing. How is a crappy product that never reached its potential, features left out, buggy, with plans to end support for it, and then annouce a sequal be good? First product was crap, how about a second? Boggles the mind.

I look forward to seeing you flying over virtual Russia.

[MadTommy]

Why should a business succeed when they fail at making a product? If a diner served horrible food, but the owner kept promising it will get better soon, and it doesnt, how long will it stay in business?

Sorry, no love loss here. When I want to donate, it goes to a charity, not to a team that cannot make (or fix) a product released over a year ago.

Everyone has opinions, and if you feel the need to support them, its your choice. I dont agree with it, but I also know I dont control anyone eles way of thinking.

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the state of mind of people thinking they the devs are doing a good thing. How is a crappy product that never reached its potential, features left out, buggy, with plans to end support for it, and then annouce a sequal be good? First product was crap, how about a second? Boggles the mind.

I understand your sentiment, and would agree if Maddox Games was a local tyre shop doing crap work.

However, they are the only company attempting to create a WWII simulation. The ONLY ONE that is trying to cater for my wants in a simulation. They have failed thus far, but only just, CloD and any sequel has potential, that can't be denied. They deserve support simply because they are the ONLY ONE.. crazy as it is!

[garengarch]

Fair enough and thanks for the update team.

[ATAG_Dutch]

People seem to be forgetting some things here.

1) We have already been informed that the team are working on a 'release candidate' beta patch to be tested prior to an official retail update patch release.

Why not save the criticisms until then? If the official update patch to come corrects a good deal of the current complaints, then the sim will have had a level of support.

2) The current beta patch is just that. A beta patch. V1.05 is still there to be rolled back to if you like.

Give the guys a chance to put things right in this 'final' patch, is all I'm saying.

[GF_Mastiff]

Thank you Sir I'm waiting and still playing in the mean time those who uninstall and come back later I will be your nemeses.

"The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it."

[lokitexas]

I understand your sentiment, and would agree if Maddox Games was a local tyre shop doing crap work.

However, they are the only company attempting to create a WWII simulation. The ONLY ONE that is trying to cater for my wants in a simulation. They have failed thus far, but only just, CloD and any sequel has potential, that can't be denied. They deserve support simply because they are the ONLY ONE.. crazy as it is!

Well not totally true. By *try* there are others like War Thunder (although they have simulation settings is still arcade), and DCS P51 (awesome, awesome, full simulation), but it will take a long time finish an axis rival in the same detail.

But I agree with you. CLoD has the potential, but beyond the engine, I really think the dev team is not up to the task. Sad to say, but I dont think they know what to do.

Riding the coatails of IL2 46' helped, but it is very apparant they cant deliver the goods anymore.

Maybe one day we will get a great looking and playing WWII sim, but I just dont see it coming from 1C.

[GF_Mastiff]

I understand your sentiment, and would agree if Maddox Games was a local tyre shop doing crap work.

However, they are the only company attempting to create a WWII simulation. The ONLY ONE that is trying to cater for my wants in a simulation. They have failed thus far, but only just, CloD and any sequel has potential, that can't be denied. They deserve support simply because they are the ONLY ONE.. crazy as it is!

+++

[lokitexas]

People seem to be forgetting some things here.

1) We have already been informed that the team are working on a 'release candidate' beta patch to be tested prior to an official retail update patch release.

Why not save the criticisms until then? If the official update patch to come corrects a good deal of the current complaints, then the sim will have had a level of support.

2) The current beta patch is just that. A beta patch. V1.05 is still there to be rolled back to if you like.

Give the guys a chance to put things right in this 'final' patch, is all I'm saying.

You are correct with this mindset. I will do this.

At the same time, look at the history of the beta patches, and understand why someone might be expecting the same under-delivered "fixes", that have been churned out in the past few months.

[ATAG_Dutch]

At the same time, look at the history of the beta patches, and understand why someone might be expecting the same under-delivered "fixes", that have been churned out in the past few months.

Oh I know. Believe me I know exactly what you mean. ;)

[wannabetheace]

Thanks for the news :)

I'm optimistic that I'll buy whatever came I'll buy sequels in collector edition if possible.

he said one patch and a sequel. that's good to know I need eastern front i'm not into BoB indeed kk

besides, i understood that one patch and there won't be enough time to make another patch cause the sequel will be almost releasing so why not bother with Clod! fine its fair.
I don't give a shit how much I paid for Clod and its condition I want this sim to be success. I'll support what I can buying all 1c il2 series. cause there is no better choice in the market !!!

[Malc29]

The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.

I think that should be 'if' rather than 'when'.

I certainly won't be pre-ordering the sequel.

[Chivas]

Its very good news to hear, that COD will continue to be improved thru the merging of Sequels. The funny thing is people who complain about having to buy a Sequel to improve COD would probably have bought the Sequel anyway. I fully understand being pissed off about the beta release of COD, but your monies help make it possible that COD can be fixed and new theaters added. BUT that depends on the development fixing and optimizing the game engine and features for the release of the Sequel.

I was very concerned that the development would run out of capital and we would never see COD fixed. The next COD patch should make some improvement, but the fact it will be merged with the Sequel will make a huge improvement in new features, and fixes to the AI, Commands, FM, DM, FMB, GUI, Animations etc etc. These fixes will allow the community and third parties to build far more historic missions and campaigns. The future could be very bright for COD and all the Sequels, if the development manages to fix the new game engine.

People MUST remember that the Sequels are just new maps and missions. Most work and improvements to the game engine and its features apply to ALL theaters including the English Channel map.

[Insuber]

Good news Luthier because telling the truth is the best policy.

[jermin]

The next COD patch should make some improvement, but the fact it will be merged with the Sequel will make a huge improvement in new features, and fixes to the AI, Commands, FM, DM, FMB, Animations etc etc. These fixes will allow the community and third parties to build far more historic missions and campaigns.

I'm confused. :confused: You talk as if you are the head of the development team, not luthier.

[kristorf]

The funny thing is people who complain about having to buy a Sequel to improve COD would probably have bought the Sequel anyway...........


Chivas, you are correct, people would have bought the sequal, however we/they have been burnt once so will now either wait for good reviews before buying or cut their losses and move onto something differant.

I think what will hurt though is the lack of coop content as most squads prefer this form to going onto D/F servers (I know ATAG and others have a work around but thats not the point is it?), especially those with no interest in the Eastern Front

[senseispcc]

I think that should be 'if' rather than 'when'.

Yes, when is the real question. It is my opinion end of the year 2012 but maybe 2013?

[Boandlgramer]

Luthier , Я за вас , Я буду ждать

[Chivas]

Chivas, you are correct, people would have bought the sequal, however we/they have been burnt once so will now either wait for good reviews before buying or cut their losses and move onto something differant.

I think what will hurt though is the lack of coop content as most squads prefer this form to going onto D/F servers (I know ATAG and others have a work around but thats not the point is it?), especially those with no interest in the Eastern Front

You neglected to quote my suggestion that people will only buy the Sequel if the game engine is fixed.

[Chivas]

I'm confused. :confused: You talk as if you are the head of the development team, not luthier.

You don't have to part of the development team to point out the obvious. The theaters are just maps, all of them using the same game engine and features. Any improvements to the game engine and features should apply to ALL maps.

[Chivas]

Yes, when is the real question. It is my opinion end of the year 2012 but maybe 2013?

The development has already said the Sequels "alpha" won't be done until 2013, so it will be quite sometime before we see the Sequel. Hopefully the COD's next patch will be good enough to enjoy until more improvements come with the Sequel. Since its going to be a long time before the Sequels release, I can see some features being tested with beta patches for COD.

[kristorf]

You neglected to quote my suggestion that people will only buy the Sequel if the game engine is fixed.

Sorry, I thought that was a cert

[Tree_UK]

You don't have to part of the development team to point out the obvious. The theaters are just maps, all of them using the same game engine and features. Any improvements to the game engine and features should apply to ALL maps.

lol, Chivas you have missed the obvious with this game for the last 30 months!! You kept telling us how good it would be, and then you kept telling us how they would fix it... the simple truth is we pointed out the obvious it was you who couldn't see it. :grin:

[Chivas]

lol, Chivas you have missed the obvious with this game for the last 30 months!! You kept telling us how good it would be, and then you kept telling us how they would fix it... the simple truth is we pointed out the obvious it was you who couldn't see it. :grin:

Again you missed the obvious, my posts expressed optimism for a finished product, you will have to wait until the product is finished to evaluate my optimism.

[Bloblast]

Good news for 3 reasons:
1 another patch for CloD,
2 we get a sequel,
3 and this will be merged with CloD, so will get all the new stuff from sequel.

Thanks

[ACE-OF-ACES]

lol, Chivas you have missed the obvious with this game for the last 30 months!! You kept telling us how good it would be, and then you kept telling us how they would fix it... the simple truth is we pointed out the obvious it was you who couldn't see it. :grin:
So what part of Luither saying ('pointing out') i.e.

The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch.
Did you not understand ('see') ?

[Tree_UK]

So what part of Luither saying ('pointing out') i.e.


Did you not understand ('see') ?

sorry you lost me completley???? what are you on about?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

sorry you lost me completley???? what are you on about?
Ah so your having trouble 'seeing'..

Got it!

[Fergal69]

I just want good flight simulations. CloD fell short so far.. but at least there is still some hope.

I looked forward to Clod when purchasing 1946 & looking at the preview disc for Clod.

Yes, I was disapointed with it, but that was due to my system specs - thought I had something was would cover the minimum specs. However upgrading to Window 7 (64 bit) has meant I can fly over London on medium settings without it now freezing.

Now it doesn't freeze I can shoot down planes to my hearts content, so I'm now happy.

I'm sure that once I've upgraded my RAM, once it comes down to a sensible price & also upgraded my graphics card, then I cn run it on the higher settings, but in the meantime, as mentioned before, I'm happy.

My only problem is that there aren't any Windows 7 driver for my Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold joystick that has served me well over the years & has plenty more life in it yet.

[salmo]

4) What’s the status of the Su-26 and the SDKs?
We will most likely include the Su-26 in the final patch for free. The SDKs, we really want to release at least the map-making SDK to the public “as is”, which is why they’re not covered by the next patch v. sequels discussion. However simply packing up the source code into a package that can be released to the public is a somewhat lengthy task that can only be done by our lead programmer. Once he’s done putting out the fires, and once the patch is out the door, we’ll find a way to squeeze that into his schedule.

With respect, I no longer have enthusiasm or confidence in any announcement about content or SDK's. I'm afraid it's a case of being let down far too often with previously undelivered promises.

[Fredfetish]

Meh... they should charge monthly subscription to this forum rather than paying for the game. They'll make a killing!

Tree and Ace-of-Aces posts should only be available to premium subscribers.

[baronWastelan]

It takes a very special sort of business man to accept full retail payment for a product that he knows does not meet the minimum standards of quality, then tell those customers, "I'm not happy, but I have to move on". If you can get away with it, more power to you luthier.

[mcFly]

Did they give some answers in the meantime?
Can't find them, didn't they say this evening?

[major_setback]

One patch then sequel

I think you might be jumping to conclusions.

He said:
1. They have to reach one milestone first (getting the game stable).
2. Release the Final Patch
3. Release Battle of Moscow to install and merge with CoD.

The reaching of the 'milestone' itself might require further patches.
This is how I read the update.

The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.



I think the 'Next time it will be updated...' refers to the next time we install something AFTER the milestone has been reached (not the next time we install).

[Aty2]

I think their policy is wrong, work on the sequel and not finish Cliffs of Dover is a mistake, I don´t have more confidence in your products, to buy their, who assures me that the sequel will work 100%

[flightdok]

I don't usually say much, but, how can you release a "Sequel" to a game that has not been corrected or finnished in a stable condition?.....that is just adding problems onto problems with no solutions in site.........:(.........

[lastchance]

I think their policy is wrong, work on the sequel and not finish Cliffs of Dover is a mistake, I don´t have more confidence in your products, to buy their, who assures me that the sequel will work 100%

+1 will never ever buy from this developer (developer thats a joke) again.

[Chivas]

I think their policy is wrong, work on the sequel and not finish Cliffs of Dover is a mistake, I don´t have more confidence in your products, to buy their, who assures me that the sequel will work 100%

Their policy is the only one available to them. Not working on the Sequel now would be fatal to the development. The development knows full well they will live or die depending on sales of the Sequel, and very few will buy it unless they know there are MAJOR improvements.

[Chivas]

I don't usually say much, but, how can you release a "Sequel" to a game that has not been corrected or finnished in a stable condition?.....that is just adding problems onto problems with no solutions in site.........:(.........

If that were true they would release the Sequel now with all the game engines faults. This is one of the reasons the Sequel will be a year or two away to give them time to fix these faults, not just to make the maps, missions, and aircraft.

[trademe900]

The real problem here is that there is no competition... at all.

We need competition for CoD so these guys can get off their backsides and give us what we paid for!

[macro]

The real problem here is that there is no competition... at all.

We need competition for CoD so these guys can get off their backsides and give us what we paid for!

agree with that

clod was a beta and a money maker for their eastern front. but its still the best out there, which sucks.

[macro]

sorry uther did i say something wrong? i see you edited my post already, but havent actually changed anything? :confused:

[Fearless_1]

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation.

No, no we won't. Most developers won't put themselves in that situation, and the only one I know of who has, TK (Strike Fighters was rushed by Wal-Mart in 2002), has corrected the major problems in his sim. When Pacific Fighters was released the devs missed a few obvious things, but they were actually fixed - within 2 months. When Theater of War came out the only heads which turned were doing so because it was incomplete. They completed it and gave a massive patch for free.

Nothing about what you developers has done indicates that you ever intended to finish this. I'm glad I bought the DEMO on bargain. When you release your next demo, Battle of Moscow, I'll be passing it up.

You guys disappoint me. You overspent on graphics, inserted little game play, and completely failed to use the potential something like the Battle of Britain had to sell. As of now, Battle of Britain 2 is still better.

I hope you care about your customers as much as you say you do, because we have real concerns about your approach and it's failures.

[RupertVonHentzau]

No, no we won't.

(...)

When you release your next demo, Battle of Moscow, I'll be passing it up.

You guys disappoint me. You overspent on graphics, inserted little game play, and completely failed to use the potential something like the Battle of Britain had to sell. As of now, Battle of Britain 2 is still better.

I hope you care about your customers as much as you say you do, because we have real concerns about your approach and it's failures.

So well brought to the point. And I wonder - while most of you express much better what I could not put in English - that some still want to buy the sequel as if this is an addiction you cannot control: I learned my lesson having bought the collector´s box of CLOD although (!) I read about the problems beforehand - at that time trusting in a continuous support.

[planespotter]

...Clod was not what anyone wanted...It is certainly not ideal that we have been paying alpha/beta customers...we dont have the final product we were all promised and hoping for in Clod

+1

At least we agree on some things.

[Bakelit]

Nothing about what you developers has done indicates that you ever intended to finish this. I'm glad I bought the DEMO on bargain. When you release your next demo, Battle of Moscow, I'll be passing it up.

You guys disappoint me. You overspent on graphics, inserted little game play, and completely failed to use the potential something like the Battle of Britain had to sell. As of now, Battle of Britain 2 is still better.



My sentiments, exactly. BoB2 ist still the better BoB sim and is still supported by knowledgeable enthusiasts.

I don't care about a Su26, the Messerschmitt-Mädchen or the X-Wing to be inserted. I waited years and wanted a solid, state of the art BoB sim and paid my good money for the collectors edition.

Finally I'm out. Tschüss 1C ich bin draußen...

[Robert]

Chivas, you are correct, people would have bought the sequal, however we/they have been burnt once so will now either wait for good reviews before buying or cut their losses and move onto something differant.

I think what will hurt though is the lack of coop content as most squads prefer this form to going onto D/F servers (I know ATAG and others have a work around but thats not the point is it?), especially those with no interest in the Eastern Front

Not sure if I'll have to go as far as waiting for reviews. There were tell tale signs before the release that indicated an incomplete game. Luthier's "Drop a Bomb on Me" video of him flying a 110 over water should have been an indicator, lack of improved engine sounds, no skirmishes but a few highly polished movies are another. If the development process follows the same path so close to the release of the sequel I think we can safely say that the sequel won't be up to standards. On the other hand if we do see honest* representations of developemnt with honest improvement I'll buy. It may seem like a long shot to some but I'll take the risk if I see good updates and progress.

*I'm not trying to indicate dishonesty on the teams' behalf, but there were clues that had me sctratching my head, and I know there were others who looked at late development with askewed glances of disbelief.

Personally, I'd like a RATA over the snows of the eastern front. ;)

Good luck crew. I'm sure you're aware of the thin ice on which you stand. You have the time to make something we all hope to have on our hard drives.

[Storm of When]

If he doesn`t turn up and answer the questions you`ll have all the info you need about the sincerity of the team. They knew it was a disaster area on release, yet they still dropped it on 1000s of loyal IL2 fans, sad thing is unless DCS has a mad influx of people developing WW2 aircraft off their own backs we`re stuck with this as the Gaijin effort was removed from my SSD after the first 10 mins on it. I wish 1C all the best and maybe one day this will be a success as per IL2, but I seriously doubt it given their inability to address the problems that have beset this release from day 1 and before.

[tomandre81]

In 10 years or so il2-cliffs of dover ends up like a "mod" where talented hobbyists and programmers have fixed the game, making it run smooth, with dynamic campaign and flawless multiplayer.
Similiar what happened to Falcon 4.0 wich was released in 1998 and in 2011 became Falcon BMS.

See you in 10 years!

[r0bc]

COD highlights the one biggest flaw with PC gaming. A console developer never would've been able to release a product in the state we received this.Its sad but if you love PC gaming this kind of thing is just a fact of life.

[bzc3lk]

I look forward to seeing you flying over virtual Russia.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f51/bzc3lk/returnoftheflyingpigscropped_1.jpg

This will be the only thing you will see flying over the " Virtual Russia " based on their past business conduct after releasing Clod.
:rolleyes:

[Redroach]

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation. Most of you have probably guessed that Cliffs of Dover was not exactly the most profitable project in the world, and for at least the past year supporting it did nothing for the bottom line but put it deeper into the red.

Is this serious? Support? Where was it? All I got was improved engine sounds (not bad, to be fair), new tracers and some CTRL-C; CTRL-V plane versions (with totally messed-up FMs). I wouldn't call that support. Support is defined as straightening out, and probably bring in minor new stuff into, a finished game.

As for the less-than-stellar profits on CoD: Do you really, really not understand why? Really?
Many gaming magazines even refused to test CoD due to its alpha state and postponed it to a later time. And because nothing improved in CoD, that later time never came. Not a good advertisement for the product, don't you think?
A blind man can see that such a sorry game won't attract many buyers. I firmly believe the game could've gotten its "second wind", were all of its issues fixed, but now, that opportunity is gone... again.

And to declare the next patch the "final patch" is the last brick in the 'fail building'. Everyone and their grandparents knows that this patch will do nothing, as all those before. So, those who urge to wait for the patch before starting another round of complaints: Why not just start now?

I just hope that you can survive on the 500-or-so copies that BoM will sell, to the die-hard fans and to the unwitting (which should be rare, since they need to have CoD first)...

P.S.: What's the matter with all that talk about an MMO? Was this ever mentioned somewhere? AFAIR, it was just an idea thrown in by someone for that "big thing that no one else has" - and it swirls around for many months now. Which is almost as baffling as CoD itself, given that those speculations about an MMO mostly come from the die-hards :confused:

P.P.S.:I just can't fix the ATI-bug on 1946, otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered for so long :(

[Toni74]

Finally I'm out. Tschüss 1C ich bin draußen...

lol.

[PotNoodles]

Please answer this question - What on earth are you going to do if you release a patch crammed full of so called fixes and it creates other bugs like most of the other patches you released? Remember you have been using use as beta testers because you don't seem to have had the time to test these things yourselves. Can I suggest that maybe you get the rest of the team together this time round and test the patch yourselves before you release it to use? I mean, it cannot be a beta patch if it's the last patch for COD.

[JG52Krupi]

They are called beta patches for a reason... :idea: :rolleyes:

[lokitexas]

They are called beta patches for a reason... :idea: :rolleyes:

We are called customers for a reason as well....:rolleyes: and we see how that turned out.

[Bakelit]

lol.

Lach ruhig. Viel Spaß noch.

[PotNoodles]

BTW - i think it's very unfair how we have to buy the next game to get a fix for the game we already bought, but I am sure some others have mentioned this already and like them I won't buy into that.

[=GI=Joel]

I am gob smacked. We paid to alpha test your game and we have to pay again for the next update! Omg. You won't mug me off again. Good luck with it. Your gona need it. You have now killed, totally killed your customer base. I will now be demanding my money back.

[d.burnette]

What I am curious about , he stated after the next milestone(sequel) is submitted and accepted, then they would come back to finish the patch for CLOD.
I wonder how long we are talking here?

[PotNoodles]

They are called beta patches for a reason... :idea: :rolleyes:

What on earth are you on about? If it's the last patch for COD how can it be a beta? It has to be the last official patch for COD alone.

[Tree_UK]

What I am curious about , he stated after the next milestone(sequel) is submitted and accepted, then they would come back to finish the patch for CLOD.
I wonder how long we are talking here?

Well probably another 18 months or so.

[bongodriver]

call me a sychophantic fanboy if you like but I think the 'milestone' is an internal development target and not something that concerns the wider public.

[JG52Krupi]

What on earth are you on about? If it's the last patch for COD how can it be a beta? It has to be the last official patch for COD alone.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g1KTBwTWF1w/TcduQ6oKVlI/AAAAAAAAAG4/_grDVhLcplQ/s1600/derpdog.jpg

There will be another beta test before release...

[Stirwenn]

I really do not understand how this project is managed : as it is confessed, few of them were working on Cliffs last months but till the last beta patch they regain some customers who would certainly jump in buying the sequel if.... they do not hear : "Sorry guys, we messed the job... ahem... please do not forget to buy the sequel in two or three years..." but "Sorry, we messed the job but we do not let you down, we keep one or two devs on part time work to fix the most crying bugs till the sequel is out".
Incredible to give up that after 18 months of investment and it is starting to pay NOW !
Hope you get the feeling, english is not my natural language.

[Frequent_Flyer]

Glad you find it funny, but I suspect because of the awful mess that is CLOD and the amount of time it has taken to still not fix it, and the missing features and the dumbing down of graphics, the poor netcode, the lack of coop's, poor campaign's, the broken GUI in single player etc etc, that the sales of the sequel will reflect what I consider to be rather shoddy treatment from the dev's. If you consider the above to be good for business then you are deluded.
Every point you make is valid and accurate. However, the only real way any change will be affected is if there was a competing product.At this point in time there is no other option for the paying customer to support.

[macro]

They are called beta patches for a reason... :idea: :rolleyes:

come on krupi mate, the whole of clod has been a beta test for the russain front, why do you think they did bob first instead of the other way around?

to fund it. thats why.

fact is, id pay for a modern 1946, with all the theatres and aircraft. id just wish theyd admit it. this version of the game was a money making beta. nothing more. the money has to come from somewhere.

Its going to take alot of time and effort and money to get to the stage 1946 got to. that money comes from us with each release of this series,
I will buy each release of this series. because it will get better time after time. I just wish they hadnt started with BOB. by the time the game does get better and more playable for the 1946 crowd, the later era ww2 planes will be more popular to play (ie p51, fw190) and the BOB era will be forgotton. just like 1946, thats the main thing that annoys me the most. :(

[Frequent_Flyer]

call me a sychophantic fanboy if you like but I think the 'milestone' is an internal development target and not something that concerns the wider public.
Look at the ' milestone' as a payment schedule. If 1C were to miss this target date or the work does not meet the quality standards, no payment is made to 1C. They than need to tap their line of credit to pay their employees, assuming they have acess to a line of credit.

[Frequent_Flyer]

We are called customers for a reason as well....:rolleyes: and we see how that turned out.
we are called Beta testers, your a customer if you purchase the mythical sequel. I move to rename Cliffs of Dover, the new Forgotten Battle.

[broken pixel]

You forgot a very important part of running a business here Luthier, you missed out the word 'CUSTOMERS'. After selling us this product with no mention of any of the problems that you were fully aware of you should put your CUSTOMERS before anything else. You have failed to do that in my honest opinion, your priority for the last 18 months should have been all hands on deck fixing what you sold us rather than concentrating on your next money making scheme.

These days "THE CUSTOMER" does not mean crap to company's or corporations. It is all about the almighty investors, sad days man, sad days. :shock:

[JG52Krupi]

come on krupi mate, the whole of clod has been a beta test for the russain front, why do you think they did bob first instead of the other way around?

to fund it. thats why.

fact is, id pay for a modern 1946, with all the theatres and aircraft. id just wish theyd admit it. this version of the game was a money making beta. nothing more. the money has to come from somewhere.

Its going to take alot of time and effort and money to get to the stage 1946 got to. that money comes from us with each release of this series,
I will buy each release of this series. because it will get better time after time. I just wish they hadnt started with BOB. by the time the game does get better and more playable for the 1946 crowd, the later era ww2 planes will be more popular to play (ie p51, fw190) and the BOB era will be forgotton. just like 1946, thats the main thing that annoys me the most. :(

Sadly that's what it looks like :(, but I have logged over 500 hours in the game so I must enjoy it warts and all :D

[mazex]

You forgot a very important part of running a business here Luthier, you missed out the word 'CUSTOMERS'. After selling us this product with no mention of any of the problems that you were fully aware of you should put your CUSTOMERS before anything else. You have failed to do that in my honest opinion, your priority for the last 18 months should have been all hands on deck fixing what you sold us rather than concentrating on your next money making scheme.

C'mon Tree :) It's simply impossible that you work in the private sector of what the rest of us call "the economy"? Basically it's about the fact that if your company does not make a profit it gets shut down... Fast.

So - who would put up the money to have the team working on patching a product for 18 months that unfortunately must have been a financial fiasco? 1C? Ubisoft? Just get over it, CloD was a failure - both financially and technically. End of story. Now they have actually spent too much time trying to get it right as they are naturally embarrassed that some bean counter forced them to release it while the engineers with Oleg at the helm most certainly wanted to do a second (or third) restart of the project with a new engine... Which was naturally impossible after that last managed code experiment that failed...

A pillar of the market economy is that you don't throw good money after bad. The only reason we have gotten patches the last 18 months is that Ilya and "the new" team convinced someone with money that they could do a sequel based on the failed project to get some money back from that seven year investment. The financier probably realized that even if a sequel was successful, they would never get all the money back for the previous seven years. As they don't live in Northern Korea they know the meaning of "sunk costs" and agreed to finance the development of a sequel anyway, as the costs to have the team running another 2.5 years would be smaller than the expected revenue from the sequel (keeping in mind that they did not start from zero). Ilya probably had to get a new suit for these meetings and certainly got some milestones set that they had to deliver along the project time line or the money tap would get shut down at any point...

I really would like the CloD we all dreamed of, but we have to to accept the fact that it will not happen. Every hour spent patching CloD that does not benefit the sequel increases the risk that MG will have to pick down the sign next year (or this year if they don't show good progress). That sequel has to get decent reviews at least and sell a couple of hundred thousand copies. That's the only way we will ever see a FW 190 in the future in this engine...

And no, the argument that they have to fix CloD or no one will buy the sequel is naturally bull. If the sequel hits the market next fall and gets reviews in the > 80% range every single one of the customers that bought CloD will buy it as we there are only 1-2 decent simulators released every year. We are not that many anyway - so it's the ones that did NOT buy CloD that they need to get green figures at the bottom line ;)

EDIT: The ones we have a right to be pissed at are the publishers 1C/(Ubisoft) - that actually released the game to the market in the state it was, I don't hold MG responsible for that bad decision at all... But - if it was that or nothing I must say that I've had quite some fun with CloD anyway that definitely makes up for my $39.

[ChicoMick]

What I don't understand is this. If the Sequel has the power to 'update/fix' clod in the future then why can't those fixes still be available as 'stand alone' patches? ie without the BoM maps missions and planes ? Then we can decide whether we want the sequel or not.

I don't especially want to fight on the russian front.

I guess this doesn't fit the business plan.....

[BRIGGBOY]

come on krupi mate, the whole of clod has been a beta test for the russain front, why do you think they did bob first instead of the other way around?

To fund it. Thats why.

Fact is, id pay for a modern 1946, with all the theatres and aircraft. Id just wish theyd admit it. This version of the game was a money making beta. Nothing more. The money has to come from somewhere.

Its going to take alot of time and effort and money to get to the stage 1946 got to. That money comes from us with each release of this series,
i will buy each release of this series. Because it will get better time after time. I just wish they hadnt started with bob. By the time the game does get better and more playable for the 1946 crowd, the later era ww2 planes will be more popular to play (ie p51, fw190) and the bob era will be forgotton. Just like 1946, thats the main thing that annoys me the most. :(

+1000
and the thing that annoys me the most is that money makes the world go around.

[yobnaf]

very good news, keep up your great work, luthier, b6 and team

[dflion]

The positives.

1. Working hard on delivering a stable, working milestone for the sequel
2. We then return to now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it and make it our final COD patch
3. The next time it will be updated is when you install 'the sequel' over it.
4. Q&A. Will there be a complete readme - Yes!
5. The SDK's we really want to release - at least the map making SDK's

Just a few of questions

1. Would you release an SDK for new aircraft making by third parties in the future
2. Will you keep the COD map scenario alive by releasing new flyable and AI aircraft e.g. Spitfire V, Typhoon, Fw190, Lancaster, Dornier 217 etc in the sequels
3. Will you release more working functions in the sequel FMB

DFLion

[BRIGGBOY]

The positives.

1. Working hard on delivering a stable, working milestone for the sequel
2. We then return to now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it and make it our final COD patch
3. The next time it will be updated is when you install 'the sequel' over it.
4. Q&A. Will there be a complete readme - Yes!
5. The SDK's we really want to release - at least the map making SDK's

Just a few of questions

1. Would you release an SDK for new aircraft making by third parties in the future
2. Will you keep the COD map scenario alive by releasing new flyable and AI aircraft e.g. Spitfire V, Typhoon, Fw190, Lancaster, Dornier 217 etc in the sequels
3. Will you release more working functions in the sequel FMB

DFLion

dont get me wrong i am drooling like a rabid dog to fly those planes. but what i wanted and what i paid for is the bob.

[icarus]

What I don't understand is this. If the Sequel has the power to 'update/fix' clod in the future then why can't those fixes still be available as 'stand alone' patches? ie without the BoM maps missions and planes ? Then we can decide whether we want the sequel or not.

I don't especially want to fight on the russian front.

I guess this doesn't fit the business plan.....

+1

There is no reason they cannot do that. The only reason to do it the other way is to extract more cash unethically like bait and switch. Perhaps they will have a change of heart.

[Chivas]

The positives.

1. Working hard on delivering a stable, working milestone for the sequel
2. We then return to now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it and make it our final COD patch
3. The next time it will be updated is when you install 'the sequel' over it.
4. Q&A. Will there be a complete readme - Yes!
5. The SDK's we really want to release - at least the map making SDK's

Just a few of questions

1. Would you release an SDK for new aircraft making by third parties in the future
2. Will you keep the COD map scenario alive by releasing new flyable and AI aircraft e.g. Spitfire V, Typhoon, Fw190, Lancaster, Dornier 217 etc in the sequels
3. Will you release more working functions in the sequel FMB

DFLion

The COD map and aircraft will be in the Sequel. So any aircraft you find historical or otherwise in the Sequel or subsequent Sequels should be available for use by on the COD map. They probably won't be making any missions or campaigns for the COD map, but you can make them yourself, or download a ton of user made mission once things start rolling. I'm also hoping they will fix and add features to the FMB, and see no reason that wouldn't happen at somepoint. It will be interesting to see Luthier's anwsers to yours and other questions.

[He111]

Thanks Luther, I always expected BOM would overlay CLOD, like most, pity no more CLOD aircraft though! :( hopefully DSK will allow more development.

You give the impression that SLI is already up and running in CLOD ??? I hope I've misread that as I cannot see any 2nd GPU card activation.

CLOD is still a great BETA, I don't Know any other WWII air sim with the quality models like these.

And yes it is very strange that CLOD was not a good seller compared to the success of IL2 ?? I think it was just timing and quality control.

.

[BigC208]

Thanks for the heads up. Good to see that we get a final patch and further support thru the sequel. Me buying that sequel at release at full price will depend on two factors. 1: Did the final patch fix the most glaring problems. 2: Is the sequel a fixed product or another work in progress. All the stuff surrounding the release and slow progress of CloD has fixed me of my Il2 addiction. I can and will wait untill the sequel is in the the bargain bin if it's another bug ridden disaster. Release it when it's ready or I'll treat the sequal as a patch for CloD and pay accordingly. Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping the patch and sequel give me reasons to get addicted again!

[Redroach]

C'mon Tree :) It's simply impossible that you work in the private sector of what the rest of us call "the economy"? Basically it's about the fact that if your company does not make a profit it gets shut down... Fast.

So - who would put up the money to have the team working on patching a product for 18 months that unfortunately must have been a financial fiasco? 1C? Ubisoft? Just get over it, CloD was a failure - both financially and technically. End of story. Now they have actually spent too much time trying to get it right as they are naturally embarrassed that some bean counter forced them to release it while the engineers with Oleg at the helm most certainly wanted to do a second (or third) restart of the project with a new engine... Which was naturally impossible after that last managed code experiment that failed...

A pillar of the market economy is that you don't throw good money after bad. The only reason we have gotten patches the last 18 months is that Ilya and "the new" team convinced someone with money that they could do a sequel based on the failed project to get some money back from that seven year investment. The financier probably realized that even if a sequel was successful, they would never get all the money back for the previous seven years. As they don't live in Northern Korea they know the meaning of "sunk costs" and agreed to finance the development of a sequel anyway, as the costs to have the team running another 2.5 years would be smaller than the expected revenue from the sequel (keeping in mind that they did not start from zero). Ilya probably had to get a new suit for these meetings and certainly got some milestones set that they had to deliver along the project time line or the money tap would get shut down at any point...

I really would like the CloD we all dreamed of, but we have to to accept the fact that it will not happen. Every hour spent patching CloD that does not benefit the sequel increases the risk that MG will have to pick down the sign next year (or this year if they don't show good progress). That sequel has to get decent reviews at least and sell a couple of hundred thousand copies. That's the only way we will ever see a FW 190 in the future in this engine...

And no, the argument that they have to fix CloD or no one will buy the sequel is naturally bull. If the sequel hits the market next fall and gets reviews in the > 80% range every single one of the customers that bought CloD will buy it as we there are only 1-2 decent simulators released every year. We are not that many anyway - so it's the ones that did NOT buy CloD that they need to get green figures at the bottom line ;)

EDIT: The ones we have a right to be pissed at are the publishers 1C/(Ubisoft) - that actually released the game to the market in the state it was, I don't hold MG responsible for that bad decision at all... But - if it was that or nothing I must say that I've had quite some fun with CloD anyway that definitely makes up for my $39.


That's a very optimistic view, mazex. You may be right that they were pushed to release CoD early after a long time of development. But I don't think the developers were in any way pushed to release the do-nothing-"patches" they released over the past 18 months, leaving us basically in the same state as per the release.

And the thing that many people buy BOM regardless, is pretty optimistic, too. I think, by now, after so much crookery and blatant lies, many users have made it a matter of principle NOT to buy BOM (as did I), preferring to stick with 1946 or so rather than to let that shabby scheme succeed (*).
Plus, many gaming magazines probably will think similarly, and will consider the utter failure when testing the sequel, so even IF the addon is somewhat 'good' (which I don't believe for a second...), high ratings for it will be next to impossible - game tests in magazines are there to inform about quality and to save people from rip-offs, after all.


(*) It may be true that companies' power is great these days, but if that doesn't spark some sort of 'grass-roots' boycott, then I don't know what does...

[ed-b]

Just hooked back in after quite a long break to find the latest news from 1C.

Deep down I guess I realised ages ago that we were all being spun a line although, like you all, I hoped that we would at least end up with a reasonably solid product after our investment in both money and time. Sadly and predicatably, it wasn't to be. 1C are cutting their losses and hoping we will all buy the upgrade to fix what is now very, very clearly, a sub-standard product.

I feel sorry for everyone here. Reading back through the masses of posts over the last 12 months or so you get the feeling that this was probably always going to happen.

I wish 1C the very best of luck for the future. I'm sure their heart is in teh right place and the developers have had a real issues trying to balance the excessive maintenance needs of COD against teh development requirements for the new product.

Having said that, I have learned my lesson well. I won't be going for the new sim. I suspect it will suffer from a lot of teh same issues until they decide to follow the same exit strategy and release yet another sim. You can all see where this is going to end. For me, it's like a game of poker and you need to know when to fold.

I've folded and won't be hanging on for the carrot of a new sim. I wish you all well, and really hope that 1C do live up to their promises however, based on their track record, I'm not holding my breath.

I suspect that the orders for the new system will be greatly down and 1C will be forced in to the position of offering a significant discount to get everyone back on board. I hope that they do and I hope you all benefit from it.

Hope to see some of you again, flyinga sim that really works and one that we can really all enjoy out-of-the-box. I'm sure other manufacturers will be looking across and I suspect that some will see the potential niche and go for it. I'll certainly be looking out for something new but, having been so badly burned by 1C, will just wait and see what the initial purchasers feedback says before I part with any gard-earned cash.

Bye all and good luck to those that devide to stay with 1C.

Ed-B over and out.

[planespotter]

I like the 1C style I must say. Is it the Russian way? Tell the children you will get them a toy, if they give you some money. But you can't find, so you throw a broken toy to the children, at least it gives them something to play with. When they complain it is broken with four wheels, fix one. When they still complain tell them you will fix one more wheel, then kaput, no more! Your toy is wasting Daddy's important time, he has bigger things to worry about. Then tell them you will give them a new toy in two years, so they should start saving more pennies.. But they still have questions so you say, write your questions down children, Daddy will answer them tonight. Then you don't come back at all. Hahahaha pass the vodka!

[Feathered_IV]

We've seen these Q&A things before. They are usually about as revealing as a Taliban swimsuit calendar.

[GregHouse]

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation.

And could you agree that Clod was released in far more unfinished state than perhaps any other title? A rip-off, pure and simple, screw your sequels.

[kristorf]

We've seen these Q&A things before. They are usually about as revealing as a Taliban swimsuit calendar.


;) Lol

[mcFly]

What i like most are the delays for everything, even the promised answers in the evening are still not here, or don't i just see them?

[SlipBall]

What i like most are the delays for everything, even the promised answers in the evening are still not here, or don't i just see them?

Yea I agree with you that some people clogged the thread with complaints, making the questions hard to find...if I were Luthier I wouldn't try to find the questions either.

[banned]

Yea I agree with you that some people clogged the thread with complaints, making the questions hard to find...if I were Luthier I wouldn't try to find the questions either.
Does he really need to in this thread. Same questions have been said, time and time again. He should know them off by heart :)

[Tettie]

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation.
Nope. I understand the business situation but this is the world upside down.

CoD was delivered prematurely, horribly bugged and in a poor state overall. You have sold a broken toy to us and had to mend it in order to keep some credibility. If you hadn't you would have been out of business.

For me CoD is a great game, but I will not buy the sequel unless reviews on the different sites call it a good product.

Not falling for this a second time.

[Rowddy]

Just hooked back in after quite a long break to find the latest news from 1C.

Deep down I guess I realised ages ago that we were all being spun a line although, like you all, I hoped that we would at least end up with a reasonably solid product after our investment in both money and time. Sadly and predicatably, it wasn't to be. 1C are cutting their losses and hoping we will all buy the upgrade to fix what is now very, very clearly, a sub-standard product.

I feel sorry for everyone here. Reading back through the masses of posts over the last 12 months or so you get the feeling that this was probably always going to happen.

I wish 1C the very best of luck for the future. I'm sure their heart is in teh right place and the developers have had a real issues trying to balance the excessive maintenance needs of COD against teh development requirements for the new product.

Having said that, I have learned my lesson well. I won't be going for the new sim. I suspect it will suffer from a lot of teh same issues until they decide to follow the same exit strategy and release yet another sim. You can all see where this is going to end. For me, it's like a game of poker and you need to know when to fold.

I've folded and won't be hanging on for the carrot of a new sim. I wish you all well, and really hope that 1C do live up to their promises however, based on their track record, I'm not holding my breath.

I suspect that the orders for the new system will be greatly down and 1C will be forced in to the position of offering a significant discount to get everyone back on board. I hope that they do and I hope you all benefit from it.

Hope to see some of you again, flyinga sim that really works and one that we can really all enjoy out-of-the-box. I'm sure other manufacturers will be looking across and I suspect that some will see the potential niche and go for it. I'll certainly be looking out for something new but, having been so badly burned by 1C, will just wait and see what the initial purchasers feedback says before I part with any gard-earned cash.

Bye all and good luck to those that devide to stay with 1C.

Ed-B over and out.

so long Ed:-P i think people with your attitude will not be missed.. so promised you stay away?

[salmo]

What i like most are the delays for everything, even the promised answers in the evening are still not here, or don't i just see them?

Nothing new here. We were asked to post questions for Ilya, and he posted in his "update" that he would be back tonight to answer the questions posed to him. Result = he's not back, no answers to questions, more broken promises. :( To be quite frank, I've given up believing anything he states in his announcements/reports.

[zapatista]

What I don't understand is this. If the Sequel has the power to 'update/fix' clod in the future then why can't those fixes still be available as 'stand alone' patches? ie without the BoM maps missions and planes ? Then we can decide whether we want the sequel or not.

I don't especially want to fight on the russian front.

I guess this doesn't fit the business plan.....

looking at your pc spec list in your sig, is it really so heart wrenching to pay another 20$ for BoM later on so you later can get some further improvements for the BoB theater ? it obviously wasnt a deliberate cunning plan to release CoD unfinished, it was the forced premature birth of a very visionary advanced flight simulator that will take our old il2 dreams to a completely new level. the only other alternative would have been to close down the whole project and release NOTHING !! (there are some people here in this forum with a low attention spans and a failure to comprehend more complex concepts, and they seem to think there was some magic 3e option of receiving a perfect and completed sim in mid 2011)

was it frustrating to have to wait another 18 months and in the meanwhile just have some "beta product" to toy around with ? yeps ! but nope, i aint traumatized by it. meanwhile the globe keeps spinning, the shysters that caused the 2008 financial crash are still laughing all the way to the bank that they got away with plundering our coffers (and succeeded in killing off the american empire in the same process), the ice cap keeps melting further and is now expected to be completely gone in summer by 2022, and hoards of illegal economic migrants are still hopping over the fence unchallenged to come and eat up your meager pension funds and clog your healthcare system.

get a sense of perspective :) while the rest of the world is on a highway to hell, giving 20 or 30$ to 1C for them to keep building the sim of our dreams should be something we do willingly

[furbs]

What amazes me is, why some people think BOM is going to be any better than COD.

[JG52Krupi]

What amazes me is, why some people think BOM is going to be any better than COD.

It amazes me that your still here if you really think that...

[Baron]

This RC patch better be the moder of all patches.

Notice how the "when" for the patch is carefully avoided.

I mean, what does this even mean "The general plan is, after the milestone is submitted and accepted, we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch"

Milestone? Submitted and accepted? Now almost-final patch? (All my questionmarks is related to timelines)


Politicians spring to mind.


I still cling to my prediction that this patch will get here late october, in a perfect world, or mid december, in 1C world.

[Vittuuntunut]

It´s amazing with how little you can keep desperate simmers happy :grin:.

I felt pretty pissed after I bought CLOD and stopped patching it as soon as it became evident it´s not getting any better (that is: decent, compareable to other sims). I whined my dissapointment here a couple of times, but then quit writing and just lurked around.

And I can say it has been worth of 50 €.

This project, it´s lack of progress, it´s clear misleading of customers and this forum with it´s militant fan-boys, desperate simmers and voices of reason (Tree_UK I´m your no.1 fan) are just amazing. Nothing compares to this! I would have missed all this haven´t I bought CLOD (forum experience is not the same if you don´t own the product).

Now the most interesting part seems to have come to its end, since we (or you who are installing it) are only getting one final patch, which of course will repair next to nothing.

BTW, speaking about the latest update, do you really think that the sequel will update CLOD? It surely won´t.

My bet is that at some point of 2018 they´ll inform their "loyal customers" that code has changed so much, there is no chance of interating it with CLOD.

I have no hard feelings for Luthier & co. for taking my money (after all it´s not that much), I´ve even come over the feeling of getting cheated (that was much harder to do). I hope that they have learned their lesson and their next project will be succesfull (though I´m not parting with my money before some in-depth reviews).

[furbs]

It amazes me that your still here if you really think that...

Because Smigel, im still hoping that one day after 8 years of waiting they manage to finally get something right.

[charlie19]

An utter disgrace. To assume I am going to spend money on more products from a company that can only offer empty promises is laughable. Why the hell should we believe your next project/sequel/test to see what people will put up with, will be any better? A company that cannot deliver should not be in business at all.

Goodbye 1C.

[Matt255]

I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation.
It's not like you didn't have to...

I don't mind it that much. I think all this brabble about people feeling cheated for their ~50 €/$/£ (i myself paid half of that at release, but whatever) and posting that for over a year straight and still visiting these forums every day is also not really unamusing.

However, i sure hope that BoM will still be a massive improvement over the current CloD state (with beta patch), because i doubt many people will make the mistake of buying a 1c flightsim prematurely twice. And i doubt that BoM will have the same "support" if people don't buy it, because people post here that it's in alpha state and after BoM, i can't see another sequel that would have a similar potential as BoM or CloD.

[J.Reb]

"Are we happy with that? No. But we simply cannot continue to support and grow Cliffs of Dover while also trying to ensure our sequels are released on time and are sufficiently polished. I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation. Most of you have probably guessed that Cliffs of Dover was not exactly the most profitable project in the world, and for at least the past year supporting it did nothing for the bottom line but put it deeper into the red."


All that is your problem. What about my $50 for CoD you took and never delivered on?

And NO a half-baked sim is not what I thought I was buying. And YOU KNEW THAT.

[esmiol]

Because Smigel, im still hoping that one day after 8 years of waiting they manage to finally get something right.

then you are TOO still hoping that the sequel will be better :)

[esmiol]

"Are we happy with that? No. But we simply cannot continue to support and grow Cliffs of Dover while also trying to ensure our sequels are released on time and are sufficiently polished. I’m sure most of you will agree that we have already supported our release more than perhaps any other developer in a similar situation. Most of you have probably guessed that Cliffs of Dover was not exactly the most profitable project in the world, and for at least the past year supporting it did nothing for the bottom line but put it deeper into the red."


the thing i find wonderfull is the fact that Luthier considering that support/fix a game during one years because it was not finished at all is something incredible.... and stop working on it event it is not finish to be fix is normal....

i still hope that the sequel will be good and that a lot of fix and adding feature be present.... but how can i trust a man who said that kind of thing?

when i read him...finally i must admit that i will have to pay two time for a game with no garantee that it will be the product that i paid for.... sorry no! i can't.

but to be honest... i think that if the sequel is good and if it is a real BIG step forward i could forgive everything.

but if this sequel is another deception....il2 ils dead for ever... and i won't be the only one to forget this game if this happend.

i just hope that when the sequel will be release....the nighmare will be over.

[Aty2]

I speak as a member of an important squad network, = GRij =, and COD today is no competitor for IL2 Sturmovik

1 - No support independent from the world of mods

2 - No support for SEOW, this is an external problem for 1c, but it is what gives life to IL2 Sturmovik

3 - IL2 Sturmovik is a finished product with a very demanding fans, who do not accept a game unfinished and sequels before fix bugs

For my part I will not buy the sequel until proven 1c not worth spending more money on this game


_____________________________________________

hablo como miembro de un escuadron importante en la red, =gRiJ= , y el COD a día de hoy no es competidor para el il2 sturmovik

1º- No tiene soporte independiente desde el mundo de los mods

2º- No tiene soporte para SEOW, esto es un problema externo para 1c, pero es lo que le da vida al il2 sturmovik

3º- Il2 sturmovik es un producto acabado y con unos seguidores muy exigente, que no aceptan un juego inacabado y secuelas antes de arreglar los fallos

por mi parte no voy a comprar la secuela hasta que 1c no demuestre que merece la pena gastar mas dinero en este juego

[J.Reb]

Actually, the only fair thing to do is to give CoD customers a free Sequel game, asuming they will accept it.

I do not consider Luthier fixing his bad product to be "wonderful". More like "expected".

[macro]

Wont happen reb. They need the sales money to fund development. This is why they working on sequel instead of 100% on clod fixes. Pretty obvious really.

[J.Reb]

macro -

Yep.

I have noticed that companies that carry their poor financial standing to the marketplace for a cure usually fail.

[JG52Krupi]

These "people" who keep on saying I want the sequel free where an earth do you guys live to? Somewhere where capitalism has yet to appear, my guess is under a rock that is in one of the mosques in Timbuktu!

[zapatista]

What amazes me is, why some people think BOM is going to be any better than COD.

jeez gosh, now lemme think, mmmmm what could it possibly be ? is life really that hard to understand wherever you'r at ?

first, the gfx engine is actually working now, which was the main cause of problems at release time
second, creating new objects and scenery for the new maps is a minor element that can be delegated to a few specific staff (other then the detailed new plane models which take more time and which uses a few other specially skilled people)
third, whatever else is currently a problem, AI, FM and DM's etc, they will have had a good year to focus on it without other distractions, which means it will be significantly better, which means in turn we will have crossed the threshold of the overall package being playable. fine tuning of individual plane performances can still continue later on (which is one of the things current CoD fighter aircraft badly need)

does that mean BoM will be perfect or the end all and be all of the new sim series, nope of course not, but it will work reasonably well out of the box and wont have the major problems CoD had. see, wasnt all that hard really :)

to now already waste time whining about future imperfections of other SoW projects just shows the stunted destructive and self defeating mindset some are locked into. now go and donate 10$ to your local favored charity, and forever open that box no more ;)

[J.Reb]

Krupi -

Did you pay $50 for CoD then wait 2 yrs for it to be patched, only to now be told the final patch is coming whether the problems are fixed or not?

Grab a dictionary and look up "capitalism". You will find it involves the purchase of products that work. Products that don't work are either fixed by the manufacturer or become the subject of a law suit.

A "free sequel" is merely the substitute of a product that works for one that does not.

You got a problem with that?

[Tree_UK]

Krupi -

Did you pay $50 for CoD then wait 2 yrs for it to be patched, only to now be told the final patch is coming whether the problems are fixed or not?

Grab a dictionary and look up "capitalism". You will find it involves the purchase of products that work. Products that don't work are either fixed by the manufacturer or become the subject of a law suit.

A "free sequel" is merely the substitute of a product that works for one that does not.

You got a problem with that?

Ignore Krupi, he blows in the wind, you should of heard him slagging off Luthier on our Team speak, but on here he's a 1C boy. :grin::grin:

[J.Reb]

zapatista -

"sequel will work reasonably well out of the box and wont have the major problems CoD had."

Can I quote you on that? :)

[jibo]

Oh my CoD !

http://dominateyourserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/509610172_d46e6056e7_o.jpg

[Redroach]

It´s amazing with how little you can keep desperate simmers happy :grin:.

Haha, quite right! If you would throw those desperate, literal fanatics, a bucket of good ol' english cow trash into the CE, they would say "Aha. Mhm. Not what I expected, but hey... genuine odor of the english countryside. Very immersive! (I have to "lol" about myself about that word :D )".

And those guys are obviously still waiting for the promised "answers" and are mad on the rest of the world because they "clog the thread up". How much more ridiculous can it get? Everyone will know what those "answers" will be and I say: SCREW THEM!

And J.Reb is right, of course,. In Germany, we have a paragraph in civil law that is titled like "Product shortcomings: Pay-Back, Exchanging Product, Fixing Product"!

[furbs]

jeez gosh, now lemme think, mmmmm what could it possibly be ? is life really that hard to understand wherever you'r at ?

first, the gfx engine is actually working now, which was the main cause of problems at release time
second, creating new objects and scenery for the new maps is a minor element that can be delegated to a few specific staff (other then the detailed new plane models which take more time and which uses a few other specially skilled people)
third, whatever else is currently a problem, AI, FM and DM's etc, they will have had a good year to focus on it without other distractions, which means it will be significantly better, which means in turn we will have crossed the threshold of the overall package being playable. fine tuning of individual plane performances can still continue later on (which is one of the things current CoD fighter aircraft badly need)

does that mean BoM will be perfect or the end all and be all of the new sim series, nope of course not, but it will work reasonably well out of the box and wont have the major problems CoD had. see, wasnt all that hard really :)

to now already waste time whining about future imperfections of other SoW projects just shows the stunted destructive and self defeating mindset some are locked into

Zap, you think the engine is working? not on my planet its not...

No AA
No X64bit
No DX11
The clouds, particles, smoke and hit affects are still not working as intended.
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer.
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable.
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits.
Mirrors still dont work.

That to me is not a working GFX engine.

As for my view on BOM, im judging it on the 8 years of development plus 18 months post release of COD.

I remember when a few of us said it was not looking good for COD before release, and you kept telling us we were wrong and COD would be great, well here we go again...

Zap, here's my prediction(make a note) BOM will be more of the same, just with different aircraft and maps. The same bugs and problems and then the same promises and excuses from the devs about how they need a bit more time to get things right.

If they could get it right, they would of by now, is 18 months not enough?

[Feathered_IV]

Vague, cryptic and veiled answers don't just make themselves. They take time. Steady chaps, they'll be along in a bit.

[Tree_UK]

Agree with Furbs 100%. Zap was convinced that CLOD would be wonderful on release, but he as only just aquired it after someone gave him a copy, he went to ground after release when he found out how bad the game was, but good to have him back even if no lessons have been learnt.

[JG52Krupi]

Krupi -

Did you pay $50 for CoD then wait 2 yrs for it to be patched, only to now be told the final patch is coming whether the problems are fixed or not?

Grab a dictionary and look up "capitalism". You will find it involves the purchase of products that work. Products that don't work are either fixed by the manufacturer or become the subject of a law suit.

A "free sequel" is merely the substitute of a product that works for one that does not.

You got a problem with that?

Well firstly...

1) Cod works for me, i have logged over 500 hours on it.

2) I brought the collector edition so probably spent more on it than you.

At the end of the day NO ONE is making a sim like MG so you either support there product or you wait for some else... good luck with that.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

we return to the now almost-final patch, cram as much as we can into it, and make it our final Cliffs of Dover patch. The next time it will be updated is when you install the sequel over it.
This is great news..

Well..

Really can not call it news, in that we knew all along that this is how 1C affords to provide us updates..

This is how 1C did it with IL-2 for nearly 10 years and it worked very well!

Granted there are some people here that were not around during the IL-2 days, or have forgotten how 1C did it with IL-2..

Where these peoples thought they would be playing CoD v1.0 as is 10 years from now..

But that is not how it works..

That is to say would be hard pressed to find anyone still playing the 2001 version of IL-2 Sturmovik what with the 2007 version of IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 available..

All in all I am glad to hear that 1C has not changed the way they do things! S!

Keep up the good work!

[lokitexas]

Rose colored glasses for many people here. Blind sheep it seems.

It appears 1C does not have the talent to make a solid game. End of story. CLoD is proof of that. They might "want" to, but after a year, it is apprarent they dont know how.

Beyond the lack of talent, the communication is laughable. I love the way they open a Q&A, but forget the A part. Then go silent for weeks.

No matter how much blind faith some of you have in CLoD, the fact is, the majority of sim sites have a negative perception towards it. It is justified too.

In the end, the failure of CLoD is the devs fault....nobody elses. The financial situation, their fault....nobody elses. The negative image, their fault...nobody elses. The lack of communication, their fault...nobody elses.

If they fixed the mess within a years time, there might not be as many disgruntled people, but they didnt, so again, devs fault, not the negative posters on this board.

[CWMV]

/\
You forget that this sim works perfectly for sooooooo many here, and they have logged hundreds of trouble free hours!
:rolleyes:

[lokitexas]

/\
You forget that this sim works perfectly for sooooooo many here, and they have logged hundreds of trouble free hours!
:rolleyes:

Really? So all your radio comms work? Trees dont pop in on full settings? Please, tell me how you fixed that.

See, if your statement was true for the majority of people, why are they still patching? Sure as hell isnt to refine a near perfect game.

[furbs]

Really? So all your radio comms work? Trees dont pop in on full settings? Please, tell me how you fixed that.

See, if your statement was true for the majority of people, why are they still patching? Sure as hell isnt to refine a near perfect game.


Lokitexas, you seem to have your sarcasm mod switched off. :)

[zapatista]

Zap, you think the engine is working? not on my planet its not...

let me show you the light !

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later
No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.
The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich
hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim :) the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix
Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

That to me is not a working GFX engine: that to me is no reason to be a drama queen 6 - 9 months before release and imply the sky is falling in :) we now have a basically working gfx engine and most main area's are already working and near completion. its largely a bug fixing stage now rather then new content creation (other then a few people working on new aircraft and objects etc). that is a very different stage of completion than having a non working gfx engine and main missing elements at the point CoD was released. and the good news is that they have a number of other very advanced elements that can be quickly included later on once the main sim is working (pilots with animation, control of vehicles, advanced weather systems etc..). in late 2012 the whole paradigm is rather different them may 2011, most here should be able to see this.

I remember when a few of us said it was not looking good for COD before release, and you kept telling us we were wrong and COD would be great, well here we go again...
if you are ignoring large parts of reality no wonder you cant arrive at the right conclusions. the ONLY issue with the CoD problems is the forced premature release of an unfinished sim, nothing else. you can either choose between NOTHING or the buggy beta we had in the last 12 months. for me personally i think that giving them some beer money to allow them to keep plodding on for another 12 to 18 months is a pretty good deal to still have the hope of eventually getting a decent and reasonably rounded product at the end. you see anybody else doing this kinda work for an in depth ww2 sim, me thinks not (and dont bother listing a few that are vaguely in that direction but each have much larger holes to fill before they even come close)

Zap, here's my prediction(make a note) BOM will be more of the same, just with different aircraft and maps. The same bugs and problems and then the same promises and excuses from the devs about how they need a bit more time to get things right.
then my only question to you is, what have you personally done over this CoD time period to increase or decrease the odds of BoM being a good/better product or resolve and help fix CoD's faults and short coming ? lets be clear now, you are part of the problem furbs, you'r not part of the solution :(

[Tree_UK]

let me show you the light !

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later
No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.
The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich
hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim :) the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix
Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

That to me is not a working GFX engine: that to me is no reason to be a drama queen 6 - 9 months before release and imply the sky is falling in :)


if you are ignoring large parts of reality no wonder you cant arrive at the right conclusions. the ONLY issue with the CoD problems is the forced premature release of an unfinished sim, nothing else. you can either choose between NOTHING or the buggy beta we had in the last 12 months. for me personally i think that giving them some beer money to allow them to keep plodding on for another 12 to 18 months is a pretty good deal to still have the hope of eventually getting a decent and reasonably rounded product tat the end. you see anybody else doing this kinda work for an in depth ww2 sim, me thinks not (and dont bother listing a few that are vaguely in that direction but each have much larger holes to fill before they even come close) ?


then my only question to you is, what have you personally done over this CoD time period to increase or decrease the odds of BoM being a good/better product or resolve and help fix CoD's faults and short coming ? lets be clear now, you are part of the problem furbs, you'r not part of the solution :(

Well Zap you certainly win a prize for the biggest load of bollox typed on the forum this year, funny though I'll give you that :grin::grin::grin:

[furbs]

let me show you the light !

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later
No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.
The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich
hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim :) the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix
Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

That to me is not a working GFX engine: that to me is no reason to be a drama queen 6 - 9 months before release and imply the sky is falling in :)


if you are ignoring large parts of reality no wonder you cant arrive at the right conclusions. the ONLY issue with the CoD problems is the forced premature release of an unfinished sim, nothing else. you can either choose between NOTHING or the buggy beta we had in the last 12 months. for me personally i think that giving them some beer money to allow them to keep plodding on for another 12 to 18 months is a pretty good deal to still have the hope of eventually getting a decent and reasonably rounded product tat the end. you see anybody else doing this kinda work for an in depth ww2 sim, me thinks not (and dont bother listing a few that are vaguely in that direction but each have much larger holes to fill before they even come close) ?


then my only question to you is, what have you personally done over this CoD time period to increase or decrease the odds of BoM being a good/better product or resolve and help fix CoD's faults and short coming ? lets be clear now, you are part of the problem furbs, you'r not part of the solution :(


Zap, looking at your post, are you sure you and Luthier are not related? :)

Anyway, your post almost made me spit my coffee.

[lokitexas]

Lokitexas, you seem to have your sarcasm mod switched off. :)

Wow, I guess so. You cant blame me with some of the fanatics here. ;)

[nashash]

anyone planning group legal action count me in

[ACE-OF-ACES]

anyone planning group legal action count me in
lol

[ACE-OF-ACES]

let me show you the light !

No AA ? not important in the grand scheme of things (right now), can be dealt with later
No X64bit ? most russian customers pc's still run on 32 bit hardware/software
No DX11 ? most russian customers pc's still run on dx9 (see earlier stats quoted by B6). some of us here seem to forget the il2 and SoW series are primarily aimed at the russian/east-block market, having it released to the west is a very secondary aspect. we will get 64bit and dx11, it just wont be very soon for these obvious reasons, and stomping our little feet on the ground about it wont change anything in that regard.
The clouds ? yeps we all want/like nicer and newer clouds, not a show stopper (as long as terrain and cloud masking works for AI's)
particles, smoke ? eh buy a bigger and better pc if you want those, its high end eye candy for the rich
hit affects are still not working as intended ? easy fix
Tree's and shadows still flicker and shimmer ? tree collision models is probably a resource issue, right now we have more visible trees in a very large landscape then any other flight sim and we just aint got the pc's to crunch that number. i suspect that might not be solved even by BoM release (hope it will), just remeber you are buying a flight sim, not a tree sim :) the shimmer and flikker is a gfx bug, relatively simple to fix and will be done (since other speed tree sims dont have this problem)
View range for aircraft is still way too low, with mid and far LOD's that are horrible ? yups i find that a MAJOR issue, but it is relatively easy to fix. CoD uses up to 10 LoD models versus the 3 in il2-1946, now the gfx engine is fixed altering the visibility of the more distant LoD models is fairly simple (not that i trust luthier to understand its importance, and be willing to direct this as a priority fix that will have a big positive impact on gameplay.
Ground object view distance is terrible and make bombing missions almost unplayable ? is linked to LoD models and a temporary byproduct of the new and improved gfx engine, again relatively easy to fix
Craters and far objects still show through landscape and cockpits ? annoying yes, but technically a minor issue to resolve, easy fix
Mirrors still dont work ? real men dont need mirrors ! you should be chasing the enemy, not let him chase you ! j/k, easy fix obviously (other then it being a resource hog, so must of us wont be able to switch it on even if it works)

That to me is not a working GFX engine: that to me is no reason to be a drama queen 6 - 9 months before release and imply the sky is falling in :) we now have a basically working gfx engine and most main area's are already working and near completion. its largely a bug fixing stage now rather then new content creation (other then a few people working on new aircraft and objects etc). that is a very different stage of completion than having a non working gfx engine and main missing elements at the point CoD was released. and the good news is that they have a number of other very advanced elements that can be quickly included later on once the main sim is working (pilots with animation, control of vehicles, advanced weather systems etc..). in late 2012 the whole paradigm is rather different them may 2011, most here should be able to see this.
Just ignore those who attack you personally for what you said..

It just proves that they can not address anything in your post (the message)

Which is why they have to resort to attacking you (the messanger)

[lokitexas]

then my only question to you is, what have you personally done over this CoD time period to increase or decrease the odds of BoM being a good/better product or resolve and help fix CoD's faults and short coming ? lets be clear now, you are part of the problem furbs, you'r not part of the solution :(

So, as a customer, its our job to help fix the product we paid for? And if we dont, we are part of the problem?

Holy hell, this is funny.

I know its an old saying....but what are you smokin?

[Davy TASB]

I fully expect to purchase the Battle Of Moscow thingy just to see what its like when it is on offer in a Steam sale for about £1.37p.

[zapatista]

So, as a customer, its our job to help fix the product we paid for? And if we dont, we are part of the problem?

you have the right to buy as much coca cola as you want and then get diabetes
you have the right to eat as many hamburgers as you want and then clog your arteries and die prematurely of a heart attack
you also have the right to vote in a corrupt president who then lets his crony friends plunder your national coffers and kill off the american empire in one big swoop

and you also have the right not to do any background reading and go buy any software game you want and end up with a dud :) but why come and complain about it ? a little homework before putting down your cash would have shown you the risk, to late to complain now padre, all you got left now is the crying over spilled milk :)

if however you are in the hope of at some time getting your sweaty little hands on a good complex and advanced ww2 flight simulator, where you gonna go ? not many places eh. now take the beta you have now, add 18 months to 2 years, and voila you have a much better product, one that will be playable and will continue to be worked on for the next years to come (as further expansions or the MMO develop)

so just be grateful you helped in some VERY small way to support further development of a great flightsim, say thank you and be on your way !

[notafinger!]

anyone planning group legal action count me in

OMFG....have you never bought a bad game before? Did the $50 you might have paid for CloD put you into poverty? Get over it already.

[The Real Sop]

lol


im laughing at you bro for buying this turd of a game!!!! O0000000000000000000077777777777777777777777777777 77777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 77777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 7777

your gunner in rof

[lokitexas]

you have the right to buy as much coca cola as you want and then get diabetics
you have the right to eat as many hamburgers as you want and then clog your arteries and die prematurely of a heart attack
you also have the right to vote in a corrupt president who then lets his crony friends plunder your national coffers and kill off the american empire in one big swoop

you also have the right not to do any background reading and go buy any software game you want and end up with a dud :) but why come and complain about it ? a little homework before putting down your cash would have shown you the risk, to late to complain now padre, all you got left now is the crying over spilled milk :)

if however you are in the hope of at some time getting your sweaty little hands on a good complex and advanced ww2 flight simulator, where you gonna go ? not many places eh. now take the beta you have now, add 18 months to 2 years, and voila you have a much better product, one that will be playable and will continue to be worked on for the next years to come (as further expansions or the MMO develop)

so just be grateful you helped in some VERY small way to support further development of a great flightsim, say thank you and be on your way !

Yup, bought on the IL2 name, and regretted ever since. Hoping it would be up to par. Still has not happened.

You sure do talk about "RIGHTS" to do this and that, then say to "move along now"? So the right to drink all the coke I want is ok, but the right to voice an opinion isnt?

People like you make me sick. Hypocrite.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

im laughing at you bro for buying this turd of a game!!!! O0000000000000000000077777777777777777777777777777 77777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 77777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 7777

your gunner in rof
Am I the only one to notice that there are alot of 'new' forum member handles being generated to post in this thread?

Take this 'user' for example.. His 1st post and this is the best he can do?

Eitherway, does this mean we can expect another furbs/icars poll to be posted soon?

[The Real Sop]

Am I the only one to notice that there are alot of 'new' forum member handles being generated to post in this thread?

Take this 'user' for example.. His 1st post and this is the best he can do?

Eitherway, does this mean we can expect another furbs/icars poll to be posted soon?

Mate look at my reg date im a member of this forum about 4 months longer than you"!!!!! o7

[zapatista]

Well Zap you certainly win a prize for the biggest load of bollox typed on the forum this year, funny though I'll give you that :grin::grin::grin:

and the only good thing about you tree is that you are so obsessively busy posting negative crap about things you know little about, is that the chances of you ever reproducing are near to nil :)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Mate look at my reg date im a member of this forum about 4 months longer than you"!!!!! o7
And his 2nd post is no better..

[Chivas]

Am I the only one to notice that there are alot of 'new' forum member handles being generated to post in this thread?

Take this 'user' for example.. His 1st post and this is the best he can do?

Eitherway, does this mean we can expect another furbs/icars poll to be posted soon?

As the game engine improves, I think you will see few people changing forum names. ;)

[zapatista]

Yup, bought on the IL2 name, and regretted ever since. Hoping it would be up to par. Still has not happened.

so do i detect a real flight simulation fan there under the hood ? in that case all i can say is welcome, you have arrived at the last great hope for ww2 aviation fans. the only problem is that it is still under construction, so there is some patient waiting to be done. some of us try and pass the time providing bug reports and suggestions for improvements

but while you are reading the forum, just mind the thread turds left by trolls, and be aware of the mesmerizing swansong from the depressive sirens with the deranged minds who lure you to the cliffs of doom where all is black and ugly

instead, be on the lookout for glimmers of hope and signs of progress, there are some great things in the making

for me and my mid range pc, CoD only just became playable since the last beta patch, but i didnt buy the sim full price at release time because it was quickly evident there were some major problems. seeing the leap forward CoD is from the il2 series, and how much depth and complexity the sim was constructed with, it was an (over) ambitious project from the start (given current hardware). it has some incredible potential however, and you can either try and help it get there, or get stuck in some lamentation look where you forever morn your lost few dollars, your choice :)

[furbs]

Am I the only one to notice that there are alot of 'new' forum member handles being generated to post in this thread?

Take this 'user' for example.. His 1st post and this is the best he can do?

Eitherway, does this mean we can expect another furbs/icars poll to be posted soon?

Meaning what exactly?

[Walrus1]

for me personally i think that giving them some beer money to allow them to keep plodding on for another 12 to 18 months is a pretty good deal to still have the hope of eventually getting a decent and reasonably rounded product at the end.

True.

BOM will work out of the box, if it can survive to that point, because of this painful development period.

This sim has been struggling for life since its birth, is being slowly nurtured along although resources are few and far between. There is an angry mob of detractors who take a perverse glee in jeering its faltering progress.

If it can be allowed to live and grow, and if the developers are talented enough and work hard enough, it has a chance to be a really remarkable game.

[lokitexas]

so do i detect a real flight simulation fan there under the hood ? in that case all i can say is welcome, you have arrived at the last great hope for ww2 aviation fans. the only problem is that it is still under construction, so there is some patient waiting to be done. some of us try and pass the time providing bug reports and suggestions for improvements

but while you are reading the forum, just mind the thread turds left by trolls, and be aware of the mesmerizing swansong from the depressive sirens with the deranged minds who lure you to the cliffs of doom where all is black and ugly

instead, be on the lookout for glimmers of hope and signs of progress, there are some great things in the making

hint:

Barking up the wrong tree.

I have submitted bug reports, held on hope, talked this game up on other forums, and finally came to the conclusion it just isnt happening. As I said before, the devs might want to make this game good, but obviously cannot.

As a true flight sim fan, I am content now with the DCS series. Clostest thing to consumer flight combat sim on the market. Besides the best sim version of the P-51 to date, it has little to offer in the WWII genre (for now), but that is ok. I would rather enjoy the modern airframes, and wait for more WWII planes from this company, than painfully try to play CLoD, and ignore all the missing features, and bugs. Done it long enough.

Who knows, maybe 777, or another company will have something on the market in the 2 years it will take for 1C to "maybe" have this mess cleaned up, if they are still in business.

[Tree_UK]

Anyway forget all that, this is Luthiers thread, and he will back anytime last night to answer questions. Luthier.....

[Tree_UK]

and the only good thing about you tree is that you are so obsessively busy posting negative crap about things you know little about, is that the chances of you ever reproducing are near to nil :)

I am a farther of 4 Zap, and you will be pleased to know they are all healthy. I've been talking crap 2 years before the release of this game, my credibility is far far greater than yours, and unlike you I paid for the game.

[Redroach]

you also have the right to vote in a corrupt president who then lets his crony friends plunder your national coffers and kill off the american empire in one big swoop


yeah, that, translated to CoD, is what we all did. But unfortunately, in our case, there was no background reading to do beforehand... not many people could know that this would be a big rip-off.


if however you are in the hope of at some time getting your sweaty little hands on a good complex and advanced ww2 flight simulator, where you gonna go ? not many places eh. now take the beta you have now, add 18 months to 2 years, and voila you have a much better product, one that will be playable and will continue to be worked on for the next years to come (as further expansions or the MMO develop)

so just be grateful you helped in some VERY small way to support further development of a great flightsim, say thank you and be on your way !

And you call yourself Zapatista? That's the biggest insult to Zapata I've seen today :rolleyes:

Could someone kindly point me to the area where, excluding engine sounds and tracers, CoD got better in any way over those 18 months? At release, my CoD ran reasonably fast, and it looked even better, if I remember correctly. So... what exactly did those 18 months to us? Anyone?

Yeah, grateful, exactly. You are an agent provocateur, right? I mean, no one can be that naive on his own, free will. Your first name is Ilya, isn't it?
I played along for quite some time, too. Reported bugs as detailedly as possible, defended the simulation from cheap shots while at the same time hoping that all will be well in 6 months' time, as everybody said.
That time has long since passed.

[JG52Uther]

Enough of the back and forth arguing. If you want to fight with each other do it via PM, not in public.

[zapatista]

Agree with Furbs 100%. Zap was convinced that CLOD would be wonderful on release, but he as only just aquired it after someone gave him a copy, he went to ground after release when he found out how bad the game was, but good to have him back even if no lessons have been learnt.

ahh tree again with his lies and personal insults, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

i really hope for your sake you are putting on an act, because if this is really the best of your deductive reasoning effort after 1.5 million years of evolution, we might as well let climate change run rampant and have it flush your genetic line away

correction 1: as previously documented i was given a copy of the sim shortly after release (when i already had made the decision to delay purchasing it because of the large amount of problems reported)
correction 2: i been right here tree, since 2007, its you that's been gone for extended periods because you keep getting banned, found those interruptions confusing ?
correction 3: i still bought the sim once patches were released that indicated improvements to make some small token act of support to something i believe in, and yea baby, since the last beta patch its actually playable on my mid range pc and starting to look good

now just make sure you ignore facts tree, spread your little lies, keep thread crapping and keep misleading people in flightsim forums, and ........ make sure you blindly and doggedly ignore anything good or positive about SoW :)

[zapatista]

ooops sorry Uther

didnt see your last post while i was typing :)