71/2 Minutes at +11 Boost, Spit Ia100oct

[ATAG_Dutch]

This is by way of a 'workaround' guide to the current problems with both overheating and energy loss in the RAF Fighters with the current v1.08 Patch.

Setting Radiator at 50%, and RPM to 2650 as soon as you've achieved 185mph after take off will keep temps under control without causing too much drag from the radiator shutter.There's some more advice right at the end of the clip. I didn't upload at high res, but you'll get the gist. This was recorded last night on ATAG server 1. I think I got on Klem's nerves a bit, buzzing around and disturbing their squad take-off. Sorry Klem :)

Edit: The 50% radiator setting and 2400-2600rpm setting will benefit all the RAF Fighters with csp currently modelled.

The two-pitch prop models will also benefit from a cleaner airframe by keeping the radiator set at 50%, but watch temps if in fine pitch at 3000rpm. Throttle back and change to coarse pitch rather than increasing rad above 50%.

Airspeed has an important role to play also. If you slow down, you get hot. Speed up again and you cool down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4mVFScdS3M&feature=youtube_gdata

[droz]

interesting.

[ATAG_Dutch]

It will be to some.

[Catseye]

It will be to some.

Surely not? :)

[ATAG_Doc]

I have no clue how you even managed to film that without a cameo from any Huns but good video old chum. I do say you really know how to fly that crate. Love how tight they turn.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Re: 7.5 minutes at +11 Boost Spit 100oct.
Not boring to me, mate! Watched it with great interest, actually. I've been finding that low rpms (compared to what I have been running) is key to keeping temps down, as well as maintaining speed. I was even running around below 5000 feet at 2200 (!) rpms/11 lbs boost/50% rad and finding that rich, not lean, mixture worked best. Oil was running 85 C and water 103 C, with level speed at 240 mph IAS. The instant trouble showed up, pitch increased to 2650 rpms and mixture to lean. Rad was left at 50% and throttle full open (11 lbs boost).

I did burn a few engines earlier (just ask JTDawg LOL), but saw your video and decided to fly a bit more. Worked a treat!

This is all goofy compared to the Pilots Notes, but it's what we're stuck with for now.

[Stirwenn]

Do the same settings allow the same time flying at 15000fts or are we stuck below 10000fts ? this is my worry now because with this low rpm you can catch bombers but fighting a 109 seems to me unreachable : a few climb, speed drop, a tight turn to avoid a BZ, speed drop. Flying straight is not an option with an yellow nose in your tail :). Any advice welcome (
PM).

[ATAG_Dutch]

Do the same settings allow the same time flying at 15000fts or are we stuck below 10000fts ? this is my worry now because with this low rpm you can catch bombers but fighting a 109 seems to me unreachable : a few climb, speed drop, a tight turn to avoid a BZ, speed drop. Flying straight is not an option with an yellow nose in your tail :). Any advice welcome (
PM).

Hi Stirwenn, as I said at the end of the vid, above about 12,000ft drop to 2400rpm.

The other key issue here is that the reduced drag from the radiator at 50% makes the Spit as slippery as an eel, energy retention is fantastic, and yesterday I got my first unshared 109 kill for about 6 months up at 16,500.
Followed him vertically upwards, downwards, everywhere.

Do not exceed 50% rad in any of the RAF Fighters. It will kill your speed dead - and therefore your cooling.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Do not exceed 50% rad in any of the RAF Fighters. It will kill your speed dead.

Hmmm, doesn't sound right. I wonder if the devs forgot to model the Meredith Effect for the Spits? :confused:

[Stirwenn]

Thx Dutch ! gonna have a try for rad :)

[ATAG_Dutch]

Hmmm, doesn't sound right. I wonder if the devs forgot to model the Meredith Effect for the Spits? :confused:

:lol::lol::lol:

[MadTommy]

*sigh* Its all so baffling trying to understand how to fly the different RAF fighters... I just feel swamped with confusion.

The flight manual with the game is useless and i'm frustrated as i don't have the time to fly endlessly testing different possibilities. Gauges and levers in the cockpit often seem incorrectly modelled or non functional.. and i simply don't know what info that is about is relevant to the game or real life, which often seem different.

I really appreciate the info you lads from ATAG share on these forums.... some of your short posts are like gold dust in trying to understand engine management in this sim.

I'd love it if you lads could compile your collective knowledge regarding engine management for the different planes in this sim. or if you could point me to a resource like this. :cool:

Cheers.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Here you go, Tommy. ;)

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?62-Planes-Planes-Planes!

[MadTommy]

Here you go, Tommy. ;)

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?62-Planes-Planes-Planes!

Nice one.. looks like i have some reading to do! ;) Thanks.

[bw_wolverine]

Thanks, Dutch. It's great info. Many thanks to all the CloD 'test pilots' who've done the homework and shared their results.

Part of the problem in figuring these aircraft out is that it seems that the basics change with every new patch. I'm not sure how many months it's been or how many patches it's been since a well documented readme.txt about changes made, but it's clear that the Spitfires and Hurricanes we're flying with this current beta version are far removed from the ones we had in the most recent retail patch, and far removed again from the release version. I can't comment about the 109s since I don't really fly them and thus wouldn't know how much has changed over the game's history.

We'll have to probably do all this testing over again with the next patch.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Thanks, Dutch. We'll have to probably do all this testing over again with the next patch.

Pleasure mate. And, I don't doubt the second point for a minute. :(

[SlipBall]

I don't understand this fixation with numbers. I fly red many times and can fully enjoy the aircraft without any real problems or disappointment. Developing skill and tactics is far more important IMHO:confused:

[NZtyphoon]

Pleasure mate. And, I don't doubt the second point for a minute. :(

Thanks for your hard work Dutch. Now, all we need need is an "official" RAE_Boscombe Down test squad, plus an RLM_Rechlin!

[ATAG_Snapper]

I don't understand this fixation with numbers. I fly red many times and can fully enjoy the aircraft without any real problems or disappointment. Developing skill and tactics is far more important IMHO:confused:

We also develop our skill and hone our tactics, both online and offline, in addition to studying how to extract maximum performance from our machines to great synergetic effect. We do it all and enjoy it very much. We share our findings in the 1C community and hope it benefits others and adds to THEIR enjoyment, and perhaps generate discussion and add to everyone's overall learning.

If you have no problems with the current RAF fighter flight models then this thread is of no use to you whatsoever, IMHO.

[Reaper leader]

Thank you Snapper for sharing! Did anyone try the same in a 100 octane Hurricane yet ?

Regards

[ATAG_Dutch]

I don't understand this fixation with numbers.

So why do you keep posting statistics regarding the number of hits you've made on target? Gunnery is a fascinating subject, and I for one am rubbish at it. You obviously think you're good at it, as you keep posting information on your gunnery efficiency.

Pot? Kettle? This has nothing to do with an obsession with numbers, it has to do with making the game playable for people on both sides.

Have you ever tested the drag effect of radiators in your favourite aeroplane?

If so, please enlighten the whole community with your findings.

Cheers, Slipball.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Thank you Snapper for sharing!

Erm, I beg your pardon? (no offence Snapper mate)

[Nitrous]

My Safe settings in Spit 1a 100 oct are;

Full Throttle/+11 Boost
Radiator 55%
Prop pitch 60%
Mixture 50%

Keep eye on Temps. If goes over 115 Deg Cel on water, drop throttle from 110% to 100% until returns to 110deg cel or lower.

Thx Again Dutch, really enjoyed testing tonight.

A couple of 109's were bricking it tonight watching me follow them in a climb n dive and hammer them before they ran off.

Long live the 1a 100 oct FM for NOW.

[SlipBall]

So why do you keep posting statiscs regarding the number of hits you've made on target? Gunnery is a fascinating subject, and I for one am rubbish at it. You obviously think you're good at it, as you keep posting information on your gunnery efficiency.

Pot? Kettle? This has nothing to do with an obsession with numbers, it has to do with making the game playable for people on both sides.

Have you ever tested the drag effect of radiators in your favourite aeroplane?

If so, please enlighten the whole community with your findings.

Cheers, Slipball.


Yes thank you...I do it so that more will fly and get involved, instead of marveling at the tracers, and having poor results. They then blame the British guns with a multitude of complaint threads. Its the same with the fm and the over heating complaints = pilot error, cheers

[klem]

There's some more advice right at the end of the clip. I didn't upload at high res, but you'll get the gist. This was recorded last night on ATAG server 1. I think I got on Klem's nerves a bit, buzzing around and disturbing their squad take-off. Sorry Klem :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4mVFScdS3M&feature=youtube_gdata

Impressive Dutch. I've never tested the Spit MkIa 100 octane except for the quick and dirty stability test. I've always accepted others reports.

I also noticed it took 12 seconds of established inverted flight before the oil pressure dropped to the minimum 30 psi allowed for normal flight.

You didn't get on my nerves at all. :)

[ATAG_Snapper]

Thank you Snapper for sharing! Did anyone try the same in a 100 octane Hurricane yet ?

Regards

You're very welcome, Reaper. Pay no attention to Dutch. He simply does the hard work, the hypothesizing and testing, a few tedious reports and absolutely mind-numbing videos. I am here to collect the glory for Dutch's work well done. :-P:-P:-P

[klem]

Thank you Snapper for sharing! Did anyone try the same in a 100 octane Hurricane yet ?

Regards

Only level speed and climb:-
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=451716&postcount=2
Predictably the engine burned quite quickly at 3000rpm/Max boost and barely lasted long enough to establish max speeds.

I do find 2550rpm a safe rpm for max boost without BCO in the Hurricane. There may be a time limit but I have used it for quite a long time but I don't think as long as half an hour. Also dropping to 2400 or less quickly cools it if needed. Not scientific but....

[ATAG_Dutch]

Good to know mate, thanks.

For info, all of the current RAF fighter models benefit from the 50% rad setting. Control temps with pitch and boost. If you go over 50% rad, the drag will kill you. Please try and verify this in the steed of your choice with your squad mates. Even 'Other Dutch' who crashed on take-off (sorry mate!)

All fighter aircraft that is. The Blen is still erm, shall we say 'disadvantaged' in this new patch.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I am here to collect the glory for Dutch's work well done. :-P:-P:-P

Snort....fnaarfnaaar, gluck, gluck, got any biscuits?

[ATAG_Doc]

http://i.imgur.com/0NVU8.jpg

[Basha]

For the rookies here whats the 100oct got over the 2a atm ? i fly the 2a mostly and have not blew the engine as yet but tonight i tried Dutch's tips and popped the engine twice in the 100oct...i think its the mixture that done me in and i did try to keep blue flame exhaust at all times, i will give it another go for sure.

Thx Dutch

[ATAG_Dutch]

http://i.imgur.com/0NVU8.jpg

Hilarious!!!

:lol::roll::-P

[ATAG_Doc]

hilarious!!!

:lol::roll::-p

lol

[ATAG_Dutch]

For the rookies here whats the 100oct got over the 2a atm ? i fly the 2a mostly and have not blew the engine as yet but tonight i tried Dutch's tips and popped the engine twice in the 100oct...i think its the mixture that done me in and i did try to keep blue flame exhaust at all times, i will give it another go for sure.

Thx Dutch

Ach du liebe gott meine herren. :-P

Look, I'm not here to give you all the answers. But I do like to make sure everyone knows what I've found out. I don't keep it to myself like a lot of people do.

There is no 'set this at that, and this at the other and you'll do fine'. Everything is variable, mainly according to airspeed. It's up to you.

I've given people some good guidelines to go off. Now go and test it for yourselves.

I thank you, I thank you. :-P (Now I deserve a DFC as far as I'm concerned).

[steppie]

the thing i have found with the spits and it the same for them all is below 1500f you can run 100% throttle, 100% prop and 100% mixture and 50% radiator all day as long as you keep the airspeed above 150mph or more and if i look like have having heat problem i can cool in second by dropping the throttle 20%.

the biggest problem with spit is when you get above 7000f an at this altitude you should start bringing back the mixture down 10% for every 1000f above a 7000f. Keep your RPM at about 2700 and try and keep your speed up and keep your engine cool ready for combat.

[Reaper leader]

Erm, I beg your pardon? (no offence Snapper mate)

UUUpppss sorry, well ty both then ;)

[ATAG_Dutch]

UUUpppss sorry, well ty both then ;)

:lol: No problem Reaper, that Snapper bloke's got such a loud mouth, you'd think he was all of ATAG put together.

Hope you've had chance to give it a try. ;)

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

Kudos to the OP for the effort he has put in to maximize performance from the Spitfire, he should get every credit.

Unfortunately, the fact is, this still does not change anything in regards to the complete failure of the game to properly model both the Hurricane and Spitfire.

The Spitfire 1A 100 octane is still 44 mph too slow, and climbs much worse than the actual aircraft.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-I-rae-12lbs.jpg

It was capable of running for 5 minutes at +12/3000 rpm, and considerably longer at lower rpms, something which it is incapable of now.

[http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1pn2-a.jpg

The Hurricane has the same problems, too slow, climbs poorly compared with historical, and overheats much too soon at lower rpms.

[ATAG_Snapper]

:lol: No problem Reaper, that Snapper bloke's got such a loud mouth, you'd think he was all of ATAG put together.

Hope you've had chance to give it a try. ;)

Dutch, you forgot the good looking but modest part.....:mrgreen:

[ATAG_Dutch]

Hi Buzzsaw,

I wasn't intending to say 'look folks, everything is wonderful!' by posting this vid, just intending to show all of the people currently having overheating and energy retention problems in the current patch that there is a 'workaround' in order to play the game as it currently stands, with a better chance of matching the 109s with these settings as a basic guide.

The 50% rad setting works for all the RAF a/c currently modelled in the game.

I think by now, most people know that there are errors in all the FMs, both RAF and LW/RA. There are many threads to this effect in the FM/DM section.

This thread was intended to be about getting the best out of the game currently, but thanks for posting the data. :)

[ATAG_Dutch]

Dutch, you forgot the good looking but modest part.....:mrgreen:

In your dreams.............:lol:

[*Buzzsaw*]

Hi Buzzsaw,

I wasn't intending to say 'look folks, everything is wonderful!' by posting this vid, just intending to show all of the people currently having overheating and energy retention problems in the current patch that there is a 'workaround' in order to play the game as it currently stands, with a better chance of matching the 109s with these settings as a basic guide.

The 50% rad setting works for all the RAF a/c currently modelled in the game.

I think by now, most people know that there are errors in all the FMs, both RAF and LW/RA. There are many threads to this effect in the FM/DM section.

This thread was intended to be about getting the best out of the game currently, but thanks for posting the data. :)

And no criticism intended of your good work. The issue is the game, not attempts by experienced players to get the best out of a given aircraft.

[NZtyphoon]

Hi Buzzsaw,

I wasn't intending to say 'look folks, everything is wonderful!' by posting this vid, just intending to show all of the people currently having overheating and energy retention problems in the current patch that there is a 'workaround' in order to play the game as it currently stands, with a better chance of matching the 109s with these settings as a basic guide.

The 50% rad setting works for all the RAF a/c currently modelled in the game.

I think by now, most people know that there are errors in all the FMs, both RAF and LW/RA. There are many threads to this effect in the FM/DM section.

This thread was intended to be about getting the best out of the game currently, but thanks for posting the data. :)

Much appreciated; at least for now this is a reasonable work around and my computer room no longer smells of fried Merlin and Spitfire/Hurricane chips. BTW are you that Brylcreem guy?

[ATAG_Dutch]

BTW are you that Brylcreem guy?

I wish I had enough hair to use the stuff on mate. ;)

[trademe900]

ATAG Dutch- thanks heaps for this post! This is a huge difference, it is amazing how much faster the plane is when it's flown like that with the lower radiator settings. I can actually cruise around at 300mph all day now. I used to just have it on full because the engines just kept blowing. Now by controlling the pitch and mixture it just goes at 300mph no sweat... What's amazing is that I think I can now keep the 109's away, or even chase one!!!

[ATAG_Dutch]

What's amazing is that I think I can now keep the 109's away, or even chase one!!!

That's the ticket old boy! Got to keep the jolly old Hun at bay, what?! :D

Seriously, it's good to know it's helped. Thanks for posting. :)

[SlipBall]

That's the ticket old boy! Got to keep the jolly old Hun at bay, what?! :D

Seriously, it's good to know it's helped. Thanks for posting. :)


Your efforts are helping people with improving their piloting, and so I thank you too...this really was not the best thread for me to target, for criticizing the number junkies.:)

[ATAG_Dutch]

Your efforts are helping people with improving their piloting, and so I thank you too...this really was not the best thread for me to target, for criticizing the number junkies.:)

No problem Slipball. :D

[ATAG_Dutch]

1st post edited with further info. ;)

[28_Condor]

I followed this steps and got me really mater the same time with the boost turned :)

But I managed only 280mph with the airplane trimmed :(

[ATAG_Dutch]

:)But I managed only 280mph with the airplane trimmed :(

Hi Condor,

You can take the rpm up to 3000rpm for a short period as I did in the video. This would give you a few more mph for a very short time.

The main thing is that the plane is much 'slippier' and can maintain a lot of energy even in a vertical climb.

Rather than outright top speed, try following a 109 vertically upward. You'll stay with him far easier with these settings. :)

Thanks for posting!

[trademe900]

Yes, the main thing is that it retains energy better like this. It is still 40mph too slow in outright speed though.

[svanen]

What about the mixture, I see in your video that the mixture is fully forward, is not that running lean? When I retard the the throttle to idle the mixture is connected follows the throttle back to the rich setting?

Thanks!

[ATAG_Dutch]

What about the mixture, I see in your video that the mixture is fully forward, is not that running lean? When I retard the the throttle to idle the mixture is connected follows the throttle back to the rich setting?

Thanks!

Hi Svanen, yes it is in fully lean, which is incorrectly modelled currently in the game. Use rich (fully back) mixture in 'normal boost' mode (<6.25lbs), but when engaging 'emergency boost' (>6.25lbs), change to weak 'fully forward' mixture. If you throttle back in flight, you'll need to adjust mixture back to the lean or 'weak' setting as you throttle back up.

The mixture settings do seem to vary in effect in different models though, but I've yet to do a mixture settings test on all models. Certainly this works in the 100oct.

Thanks for prompting this point! :D

[svanen]

Ok, thanks, I think I understand but what do you mean with incorrectly modeled? If the mixture is fully back it should be rich, is not that correct?

[ATAG_Dutch]

Ok, thanks, I think I understand but what do you mean with incorrectly modeled? If the mixture is fully back it should be rich, is not that correct?

Yes that part is correct.
What is incorrect is that we have to change to weak mixture to use the full +11 boost, which should actually be +12. Weak mixture should only be there for saving fuel in a long flight in cruise settings. The 'auto-rich' setting ought to be the only setting we need, unless flying for long range, such as from one corner of the map to the other and back.

I'd post a link to another post to this effect from IvanK if I knew where to find it, but unfortunately I don't. :D

[Matt255]

Afaik, fully back should be auto rich and it's lean in CloD. So if you're saying that you moved the mixture lever fully forward, you used rich mixture.

I think this is also the thing, that causes the most engine problems, because you're supposed to run the engine auto rich at high boost, but thanks to the mix-up in CloD and the mixture automatically going to fully lean, if you pull the throttle back and then forget to set the mixture back to rich, you easily ruin your engine.

Anyway, many thanks for this video. Definately helps as a workaround for the current FM. Even though it's still a bit tricky at higher altitudes. I just never know, which RPM is still "save", because even if you keep temperatures low enough, the engine might still "blow up".

[ATAG_Dutch]

Afaik, fully back should be auto rich and it's lean in CloD. So if you're saying that you moved the mixture lever fully forward, you used rich mixture.

Yep. This is where some of the mixture confusion is coming in. As I said a few posts back, rich and lean seem to be opposite in some models.

So when I say 'rich' I mean 'lever back', when I say 'lean' I mean 'lever forward'. Whether it's opposite to what is actually modelled seems to vary between aircraft, but what I tend to do is just put it in the position which runs smoothly with the most power, then adjust slightly to give a blue flame.

Testing mixtures is next on my list, unless some other kind soul would do it..........;)

[IvanK]

This is the current bug situation with Mixture in CLOD... its a tad complex:

WRT RAF Mixture settings there are multiple issues. Here are the bugs, how it should work. Stick with me here its a tad confusing :smile:

In Ver 1.08 the link between the throttle and the mixture lever in that when the throttle is closed it brings the mixture lever back is now correct this is how it was in both the Hurri and the Spits. IRL this means AUTO RICH.

However the Mixture strength going to the engine is operating in reverse in all Hurris and Spits in CLOD at present.

The Correct setup in real life is:
Mixture lever Back Mixture is AUTO RICH
Mixture Lever Forward Mixture is AUTO LEAN
There were only 2 positions Forward or Back
In Both AUTO RICH or AUTO LEAN compensation for altitude is automatic.
The only real difference between AUTO RICH and AUTO LEAN is each is running a slightly different mixture strength schedule. One suitable for General and all power settings (AUTO RICH) and the other for range/endurance flying at low power settings (AUTO LEAN)

You only really need to run AUTO LEAN if you are really trying to minimise fuel consumption. Anytime you are running AUTO LEAN there are max boost limitations to be adhered to or engine damage will result. (+2.25Lbs Merlin II and III and +4Lbs Merlin XII). Max power and or Boost Cutout operation at 12LBS must have Mixture in AUTO RICH.

VER1.08 IN COD MIXTURE BUGS
MIXTURE LEVER BACK is giving LEAN MIXTURE WRONG
MIXTURE LEVER FORWARD is Giving RICH MIXTURE WRONG
Lever has infinite movement WRONG it should be 2 position only.
MIXTURE LEVER is not working in any AUTO function since passing around 12,000ft you need to select LEAN to get smooth operation. This is WRONG as AUTO RICH should automatically compensate for altitude.

VER1.08 Workarounds
You will get better cooling using RICH MIXTURE .. it helps on the climb in the Spit IIA especially (though its still out of wack). On take off once full throttle is selected push the mixture lever fully forward to the RICH (WRONG POSITION IN VER 1.08 ) Passing around 12,000ft you will start to get rough engine operation so pull the lever back to the LEAN (WRONG POSITION IN VER 1.08 ) If Activating BOOST CUT OUT you must be in RICH so push the lever forward (WRONG POSITION IN VER1.08 )to RICH .... if you don't you will get rough running and engine damage.

HOW IT SHOULD BE USED IRL
In Reality all you really need to do is just leave the Mixture in the rear position in AUTO RICH and forget about it. You then have Automatic Altitude compensation, No BOOST limitation restrictions, no issues with the throttle moving the mixture lever just go fly.

All of this has been communicated to the Devs ... we now wait for the fix.

[svanen]

Ok, thanks for the replys, I will do some more testing. I was able to climb to 15000 feet with +6.5, 50% rad and 2600 rpm, changed to 2400 rpm at 12k, I had mixture fully backwards. After a while I increased the rpm to 2800 and almost instantly got an engine failure.

If I try the same with +11 boost amd mixture fully forward (to get it to run clean) I have a engine failure after a couple of minutes in a climb (keeping speed at 230mph). But the same settings at sea level not climbing I do not get an engine failure. But as soon as I increased rpm to 2800 at sealevel I got an engine failure again.

So the 2600/50 looks like a magic number, good find Dutch! :)

[svanen]

Ok, thanks IvanK!

[ATAG_Dutch]

Ok, thanks IvanK!

Yep. Thanks for jumping in there Ivan! :grin:

[NZtyphoon]

This is the current bug situation with Mixture in CLOD... its a tad complex:

WRT RAF Mixture settings there are multiple issues. Here are the bugs, how it should work. Stick with me here its a tad confusing :smile:

In Ver 1.08 the link between the throttle and the mixture lever in that when the throttle is closed it brings the mixture lever back is now correct this is how it was in both the Hurri and the Spits. IRL this means AUTO RICH.

However the Mixture strength going to the engine is operating in reverse in all Hurris and Spits in CLOD at present.

The Correct setup in real life is:
Mixture lever Back Mixture is AUTO RICH
Mixture Lever Forward Mixture is AUTO LEAN
There were only 2 positions Forward or Back
In Both AUTO RICH or AUTO LEAN compensation for altitude is automatic.
The only real difference between AUTO RICH and AUTO LEAN is each is running a slightly different mixture strength schedule. One suitable for General and all power settings (AUTO RICH) and the other for range/endurance flying at low power settings (AUTO LEAN)

You only really need to run AUTO LEAN if you are really trying to minimise fuel consumption. Anytime you are running AUTO LEAN there are max boost limitations to be adhered to or engine damage will result. (+2.25Lbs Merlin II and III and +4Lbs Merlin XII). Max power and or Boost Cutout operation at 12LBS must have Mixture in AUTO RICH.

VER1.08 IN COD MIXTURE BUGS
MIXTURE LEVER BACK is giving LEAN MIXTURE WRONG
MIXTURE LEVER FORWARD is Giving RICH MIXTURE WRONG
Lever has infinite movement WRONG it should be 2 position only.
MIXTURE LEVER is not working in any AUTO function since passing around 12,000ft you need to select LEAN to get smooth operation. This is WRONG as AUTO RICH should automatically compensate for altitude.

VER1.08 Workarounds
You will get better cooling using RICH MIXTURE .. it helps on the climb in the Spit IIA especially (though its still out of wack). On take off once full throttle is selected push the mixture lever fully forward to the RICH (WRONG POSITION IN VER 1.08 ) Passing around 12,000ft you will start to get rough engine operation so pull the lever back to the LEAN (WRONG POSITION IN VER 1.08 ) If Activating BOOST CUT OUT you must be in RICH so push the lever forward (WRONG POSITION IN VER1.08 )to RICH .... if you don't you will get rough running and engine damage.

HOW IT SHOULD BE USED IRL
In Reality all you really need to do is just leave the Mixture in the rear position in AUTO RICH and forget about it. You then have Automatic Altitude compensation, No BOOST limitation restrictions, no issues with the throttle moving the mixture lever just go fly.

All of this has been communicated to the Devs ... we now wait for the fix.

Nice one Ivan! in spite of the complexity this is a model of clarity. :cool:

[ATAG_Dutch]

Nice one Ivan! in spite of the complexity this is a model of clarity. :cool:

It certainly is. Half of the problem with the current RAF fighters is the incorrect mixture modelling, the other half appears to be connected with the way drag is modelled in the radiators.

In my opinion, if these two issues were addressed, many of the FM complaints would evaporate.

Here's hoping for a rectification of both issues in the 'release candidate'.

[JG52Krupi]

I also hope the sound radar is removed and a fully animated cockpit is added I.e. trim wheels etc.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I also hope the sound radar is removed and a fully animated cockpit is added I.e. trim wheels etc.

Agree on sound radar, but there is something very atmospheric about approaching a bomber formation and hearing the thunder of their collective engines, so it's not all bad.

Animated cockpit doesn't worry me any where near as much as the mixture and drag though. Plus in programming terms, altering a + to a - and reducing a numeric factor in a calculation would take minutes. Modelling cockpit animations a little longer I think. I'm oversimplifying there of course but I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from. :)

[ATAG_Dutch]

Just to update the info a touch:

Instead of testing, I've been flying for fun over the last few days and found an even simpler solution for the 100oct settings.

Before take-off, again set rad at 50% and leave it there. Mixture lever fully back. Take-off at 3000rpm, gear up, level off and allow airspeed to build to 185mph. Drop to +3 boost, lower revs to 2400 and forget them. Leave them there.

Throttle back up to +6 boost. By now you'll be doing about 200mph on the flat. Turn towards the sun and climb (never climb away from the sun, you never know who's watching). You'll get a climb rate of initially over 3000fpm dropping to 2500fpm as speed drops to 185mph. Trim for climb at this speed.

As you hit around 12,000ft you'll see temps start to rise. Throttle back to +5 boost, or level off a bit to increase airspeed. This will keep things cool. Twiddle mixture a bit to ensure blue flame.

Go jerry hunting.

Above 14,000ft, emergency boost doesn't give any real benefits, so leaving engine at these +5 to +6/2400/mixture back settings will give good performance against 109s. BUT!! If they dive away (as they tend to), punch the emergency boost, firewall it and set mixture full forward, as it certainly does work the lower you go.

With the +11boost/2400rpm/mixture forward/50% rad settings the 109s will get the shock of their lives. Just don't be tempted to alter either pitch or rad settings.

This doesn't mean that the devs don't need to change some things, but we shall see.

Stick to these golden rules and the current 100oct is very competitive.

:)

[Momod]

Nice work Dutch,
I also found the 2400 RPM settings to be ideal for climbing out etc, but on some occasions that I have increased revs or used boost and forgot to keep a close eye on the temps the inevitable happens and its RTB with a damaged engine. There are some other good pointers you have posted as well and I`ll be certainly try them out later
~S~ 56RAF Rumba

[ATAG_Dutch]

P.S. If a 109 climbs vertically, do not follow. You will lose too much airspeed and your engine will overheat.

Instead, circle and maintain your airspeed at your current altitude. Eventually he will come down, at a much slower speed than you. Use the superior manoeuvrabilty of the Spit plus the above settings to get on his six and shred him.

I now ask for a bar to my DFC.

[trademe900]

P.S. If a 109 climbs vertically, do not follow. You will lose too much airspeed and your engine will overheat.

Instead, circle and maintain your airspeed at your current altitude. Eventually he will come down, at a much slower speed than you. Use the superior manoeuvrabilty of the Spit plus the above settings to get on his six and shred him.

I now ask for a bar to my DFC.

Not enough.

He will just come down for a pass on you after his climb and then accelerate up and away again while you circle helplessly beneath him...

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not enough.

He will just come down for a pass on you after his climb and then accelerate up and away again while you circle helplessly beneath him...

Sorry, I should've clarified. If you start in a co-alt situation and he climbs vertically......etc.

If he's already got altitude on you, dodge the first pass, wait for him to pass below you, quickly reverse your turn and get some shots in.

C'mon..who do you think I am? Sailor Malan? :lol:

[ATAG_Snapper]

I've now had a half dozen one-on-one engagements with 109's flying the Spitfire 1a 100 octane, at various altitudes and situations. I had earlier abandoned the 1a in CoD in favour of the Spitfire MK 1 2-speed prop since the latter wasn't so prone to overheating and had some advantages above FTH of ~ 16 angels. Based on Dutch's recent settings recommendations, I decided to give the 1a 100 octane another try.

It didn't start too well. The 109's have ample raw horsepower and I indeed overheated my engine twice in successive engagements trying to match -- and overtake -- a co-e 109 in a climb each time, desperately trying for a guns solution. Both times the engine blew I lost power in a very disadvantageous position. In both cases I immediately rolled into a vertical dive from well over 10,000 feet, keeping my speed below the 420 mph IAS lose-your-control-surfaces speed. (that's another issue for another time). Each time I was lucky that my opponent either lost sight of me against the terrain, or more likely he opted not to lose precious height over English soil.

A quick, if frustrated, discussion with Dutch brought these simple "dogfight rules" to bear. Other than checking your gauges before engaging, during the fight itself is no time to be taking your eyes off your opponent to verify temps, or moving levers about. So best to stick to this:

1) set rpms to 2400 with prop pitch (CSP) and leave it there
2) set rad to 50% open and leave it there
3) mixture pulled back to full Auto Rich and leave it there
4) keep boost cut out override CLOSED, limiting your boost to 6.2 lbs (less above 16 angels). EXCEPTION: if you're gonna die anyway (and you're 10 angels or less for this to work) open the BCOO gate and push your throttle to 11 lbs boost, and push your mixture lever forward into full Auto Lean (yeah, weird, I know). You've got 20 seconds to save your life; make each second count. Then pull your throttle back to 3 - 5 lbs boost, close the BCOO gate (if you remember), and fly level or a slight dive to cool your temps quickly.

5) accept the fact the 109's are faster, have more horsepower in the climb, and can out dive you. Their guns are better, their engines are more durable re overheating, they have much, much less radiator drag, and their engines don't cut out on neg g's. Other than this, the advantages are all yours: greater sustained turn, less nasty stalls & spins, better vision rearwards. And Spits are prettier than 109's. Never, NEVER let your speed decrease below 200 mph IAS at any time in combat. You climb after a 109 your engine will overheat as you slow down, PLUS you lose your maneuvrability and become an easy target. As Dutch said, wait for the 109 to commit to his dive on you. Be unpredictable, and chose a direction to start your turn. Turn gently at first to preserve your speed, then tighten progressively as he draws closer behind you. As he dives past, as Dutch said, reverse your turn quickly, kicking hard rudder to assist and chase down after him. Pull your sights through him as he pulls out and give a burst as he disappears beneath your nose. DO NOT FOLLOW HIM UP AS HE ZOOMS. Drop your nose and regain your airspeed -- change your course and clear your six. Do not play his game by circling underneath. Force his play by moving off, and try to regain some alt by gently climbing -- even 500 fpm if it allows you to maintain 200 mph IAS.

Boom and zooming is not as easy as many 109 pilots make it look. They happen to be very, very good at it, mainly by lots of practice on you and me. It requires excellent judgement skills in predicting where you'll be as they dive within gun/cannon range, and what you'll probably do to react as they're coming at you. Be unpredictable, and make opportunities to get a shot in -- if you clip their elevator they have a problem.

If there are two 109's and only one of you: SCRAM OUTTA THERE!

Until the devs see fit to fix the Spit and Hurri FM's to spec, this is the best we can do. Hope it helps.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Nice post Snapper.

Uh-oh. We're talking 'tactics'. Any minute now, someone'll jump in and say 'told you so'. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, it's not just tactics. There is strong relationship between lowering airspeed and overheating in the RAF planes which doesn't seem to exist in the LW planes. Plus the RAF radiators cause massive drag when opened beyond 50%.

The only reason we can't follow the 109s upwards is due to overheating when using higher performance engine settings as airspeed decreases.

It's currently an unfair advantage to the 109s. Simple as that.

We can try to use tactics to overcome this engine modelling problem, but we can't solve it. Only the developers can do that.

One thing in Snapper's post I'd differ with though, is that BCO is very useable below 10,000 with 2400rpm and 50% rad, mixture forward. It can be used as in the video. But you need to make sure of the airspeed. I can't emphasize this enough. You need the airspeed to use the additional power. Don't use BCO to speed your aircraft up from low airspeed. Get the airspeed up first, then punch the emergency boost for more speed. If you try to accelerate from low speed using BCO, you will blow up.

Oh, and you'll run out of petrol very quickly using +11 boost, as I found out last night to my cost!! :D

[trademe900]

I've now had a half dozen one-on-one engagements with 109's flying the Spitfire 1a 100 octane, at various altitudes and situations. I had earlier abandoned the 1a in CoD in favour of the Spitfire MK 1 2-speed prop since the latter wasn't so prone to overheating and had some advantages above FTH of ~ 16 angels. Based on Dutch's recent settings recommendations, I decided to give the 1a 100 octane another try.

It didn't start too well. The 109's have ample raw horsepower and I indeed overheated my engine twice in successive engagements trying to match -- and overtake -- a co-e 109 in a climb each time, desperately trying for a guns solution. Both times the engine blew I lost power in a very disadvantageous position. In both cases I immediately rolled into a vertical dive from well over 10,000 feet, keeping my speed below the 420 mph IAS lose-your-control-surfaces speed. (that's another issue for another time). Each time I was lucky that my opponent either lost sight of me against the terrain, or more likely he opted not to lose precious height over English soil.

A quick, if frustrated, discussion with Dutch brought these simple "dogfight rules" to bear. Other than checking your gauges before engaging, during the fight itself is no time to be taking your eyes off your opponent to verify temps, or moving levers about. So best to stick to this:

1) set rpms to 2400 with prop pitch (CSP) and leave it there
2) set rad to 50% open and leave it there
3) mixture pulled back to full Auto Rich and leave it there
4) keep boost cut out override CLOSED, limiting your boost to 6.2 lbs (less above 16 angels). EXCEPTION: if you're gonna die anyway (and you're 10 angels or less for this to work) open the BCOO gate and push your throttle to 11 lbs boost, and push your mixture lever forward into full Auto Lean (yeah, weird, I know). You've got 20 seconds to save your life; make each second count. Then pull your throttle back to 3 - 5 lbs boost, close the BCOO gate (if you remember), and fly level or a slight dive to cool your temps quickly.

5) accept the fact the 109's are faster, have more horsepower in the climb, and can out dive you. Their guns are better, their engines are more durable re overheating, they have much, much less radiator drag, and their engines don't cut out on neg g's. Other than this, the advantages are all yours: greater sustained turn, less nasty stalls & spins, better vision rearwards. And Spits are prettier than 109's. Never, NEVER let your speed decrease below 200 mph IAS at any time in combat. You climb after a 109 your engine will overheat as you slow down, PLUS you lose your maneuvrability and become an easy target. As Dutch said, wait for the 109 to commit to his dive on you. Be unpredictable, and chose a direction to start your turn. Turn gently at first to preserve your speed, then tighten progressively as he draws closer behind you. As he dives past, as Dutch said, reverse your turn quickly, kicking hard rudder to assist and chase down after him. Pull your sights through him as he pulls out and give a burst as he disappears beneath your nose. DO NOT FOLLOW HIM UP AS HE ZOOMS. Drop your nose and regain your airspeed -- change your course and clear your six. Do not play his game by circling underneath. Force his play by moving off, and try to regain some alt by gently climbing -- even 500 fpm if it allows you to maintain 200 mph IAS.

Boom and zooming is not as easy as many 109 pilots make it look. They happen to be very, very good at it, mainly by lots of practice on you and me. It requires excellent judgement skills in predicting where you'll be as they dive within gun/cannon range, and what you'll probably do to react as they're coming at you. Be unpredictable, and make opportunities to get a shot in -- if you clip their elevator they have a problem.

If there are two 109's and only one of you: SCRAM OUTTA THERE!

Until the devs see fit to fix the Spit and Hurri FM's to spec, this is the best we can do. Hope it helps.

This is a really good post.

Just a thought: I find 2400 although good for outright speed is no good in dogfight, you lose speed too quickly. For dogfight I would rather choose more radiator but full rpm and even boost (if low altitude).

Still, the 109 will not die easily even when hit. It takes an eternity for it to overheat from damaged coolant system. Actually, this goes for all planes. Currently, hitting 109 fuel tank and waiting for it to run out of fuel is the fastest way to put one down.

Agree about the RAF flight models. Playing with engine temperature effects off is great to restore the flight models but then it becomes very hard to shoot down anything since the planes will not go down due to coolant system damage at all.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Dutch said:

"One thing in Snapper's post I'd differ with though, is that BCO is very useable below 10,000 with 2400rpm and 50% rad, mixture forward. It can be used as in the video. But you need to make sure of the airspeed. I can't emphasize this enough. You need the airspeed to use the additional power."

Ah, very true. The 20 second ka-boom hearkens back to when I was in the 2850 - 3000 rpm range with this model. It's endurance is, as you say, much longer at 2400 rpms per your video, as long as you keep your speed up. :)

[ATAG_Snapper]

This is a really good post.

Just a thought: I find 2400 although good for outright speed is no good in dogfight, you lose speed too quickly. For dogfight I would rather choose more radiator but full rpm and even boost (if low altitude).

Still, the 109 will not die easily even when hit. It takes an eternity for it to overheat from damaged coolant system. Actually, this goes for all planes.

Makes plenty sense if the Spits and Hurries were modelled accurately.

Unfortunately, a wide open RAF radiator acts like a drogue chute in this sim, which counters the extra power you get at higher rpms and hence causes your temps to shoot skyward and literally blow a gasket. The devs saw fit to double the Spits' and Hurries' radiator surface area from the previous beta to this one, effectively giving the RAF fighters TRIPLE the surface area over the LW fighters. To add insult to injury, the devs also assigned a drag coefficient of the RAF fighters's rad 40% greater than that of the LW rads -- compounding the overheating problem. Especially if you open your rad greater than 50%.

This is why Dutch found 2400 rpms @ 50% rad to give the best return in performance at 6.2 lbs for controllable overheating (except in performance climb).

[ATAG_Colander]

Boom and zooming is not as easy as many 109 pilots make it look. They happen to be very, very good at it, mainly by lots of practice on you and me. It requires excellent judgement skills in predicting where you'll be as they dive within gun/cannon range, and what you'll probably do to react as they're coming at you. Be unpredictable, and make opportunities to get a shot in -- if you clip their elevator they have a problem.


Indeed. The advantage of BnZ is that, if done properly, can be done again and again.
The problem is that after a few passes, the pilot tends to get inpatient and that's when the mistakes happen. This is what you should try to force, mistakes, and is done by, as Snapper says, being unpredictable.

Note that every correction in trajectory a BnZ'er makes, implies loss of energy. If the BnZ'er looses that advantage, then the spits and hurris are in control of the fight.