Why does Ghosting occur on servers?

[hc_wolf]

When you fly up to the group the Poly's change or what ever and disappear.

Is this a Graphics coding thing for the Devs to fix with online code or is it something we can avoid by putting some code into our .cs Mission builds?


Oh and all you Star Trek Geeks out there. .. Please refrain from telling me it is something to dd with a Mirror Universe or the fact that the startship enterprise can only do 5.06 Warp speed cause some idiot vulcan removed the charger plug to iron his shirt.

:confused:

[Ze-Jamz]

Not sure on the answer but its dam annoying and been there from the start, seems to of reared its ugly head quite a lot recently too...seeing more and more single or double ghost dots as well as the usual bomber size formations..

As for your star trek comment..red side, cloaking device..that's all I'm saying ;)

[adonys]

because of mp virtual objects leftovers on the client (cached aircrafts, etc) due to desynchronization between the client and the server, which should have been collected by the garbage collector but weren't yet, or ever..

because of security and bandwidth problems, usually the client does not know all the objects (or their positions) which are present on the server. the server send the client a list with the objects going into his rendering/gameplay range, and updates this list all the time, while the client is using this list to render the objects and use them into gameplay code. if a desync appear between the server and the client, then the client has some objects into that list which are not actually in there on the server anymore and from here all the problems with the ghosting.

most probably, this is caused by the despawning of the AI flights code, which must be poorly done, or have some (logical) bugs in it.

as they enter in your visual range, the dots appear, and when you're close enough to have the objects actually rendered, the dots disappear, but of course, nothing is rendered instead, as there's nothing in there..

[ATAG_Bliss]

That makes sense except for the despawning part. For instance all our AI flights despawn on the ground - if they actually make it home. I think the problem lies in how they are spawned tbh. I tried script spawning, sub mission spawning, and delayed spawning through another submission and the problem has always remained. I think some dots are actually left over pieces of planes floating in the air. The dot, at distance, is the same size regardless if it's an entire plane or an elevator of a particular plane just floating in the air.

There's definitely some major problems regardless. We have AI ships that fly and static ships that float upside down or on their side. Would be nice if the MP world had any sort of tutorial or some sort of real dedicated server instead of the steam client crap we deal with now. Maybe one day :(

[adonys]

the leftovers from other aircrafts are only local decals, they can not be seen and should not be seen from far away.

the ghost dots we're seeing are the visual dots for aircrafts further away than the furthest LOD model distance.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Ghosting is annoying as heck. Once spotted supposedly a bomber formation and therefeore began to maneuver for best intercept course. Can imagine my frustration when I was almost over the formation it vanished! I NEVER encountered this in original IL-2.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Despawn script. ;)

I had a mission where ghosts were seen everytime. As I was watching the bombers fly out 1/3 of the way I could see them comming back at their 2/3rds mark. It happened everytime so I had the script totally removed. Problem solved. So I had parts of the script put back in and tested it piece by piece. When the despawn script went in the ghosts came back...

Ive said this before but no one listened, cared or just didnt believe me?

In our 2nd Multisaqudron Campaign which just finished we left the despawn script out for the reason of statistics, so unless you downed it proper you got no kill, and nobody as far as I know reported ghosts. Hoever around mission 5 we found we had to re add the despawn script as it was causing other problems with stats. Which is where I started seeing ghosts...


The thing is with this scripting element and all the new elements in the game is that we have no instructions on its function, use or limits! We dont know if its because we are doing it wrong. We only find things that work and then tell others who take it as gospel. - A potentially gross error!

Two Prime Examples Being:

AI skill and behaviour (sliders) - where everyone blamed the game
Loading maps over maps to load air missions etc (which is wrong I think)

Take for example the red fighters DH20 and 2 stage spit, everyone is flying them now and as far as I know their flight models where not changed... Only the Spit Ia, Hurricane Rotol and 100 oct versions where changed but who knows? - they never told us. Was it just because they flown wrong before? Are the 100 octane versions being flown wrong? Are the guages FUBAR? Tell this to a red pilot he will call you a hand cranker cos he thinks you are blaming him. I know in the 109 when the game first came out that my squadron thought all kinds of prop pitches where best for different situations untill some months later and differnet arguments and cases later we realised that 2350 RPM is all that counts, try not to go over 1.3 ATA and your golden, although once upto about 420 at SL you need to turn the pitch down to 09:35 / 09:30 for the best top speed of 460 kmh. (However this is a FMB question not a FM debate so lets not even get on this one.)


We dont get any help from 1c:MG and we take the word of others of various skill as an expert oppinion because it works, regardless of side effects. You cant blame the people who find these things that work and tell everyone oblivious of the side effects because they are in fact pioneers of a brave new FMB. However we must look at things and consider new ideas and approaches if we want to get anywhere!

Because text cannot convoy emotion and Im proberbly not always the most articulate person I would like to point out especially that I am in no way attacking or degrading the FMB pioneers like Kodiak, Bliss, wolf, Salmo, banks etc etc etc - hey maybe even myself. (Sorry if I am leaving the SP guys out I just dont know who you are, I only play MP.)



I really think we deserve some answers from B6 who is in fact a mission maker! Maybe he could provide some brief examples to so of the staple aspects of mission making - like:

give us a fekking despawn script that doesn't cause ghosts.
Explain the mechanics of TPassthrough - why sometimes it triggers once only and other times it goes ape!
Does the .cs file have a chracter limit?
How many Static objects, AI, and players can 1 mission support - I am sure a few of us believe we know answears for this but at what cost client side?

I am sure some others could add some questions here.


We need some answers... [/RANT]

[Ze-Jamz]

the leftovers from other aircrafts are only local decals, they can not be seen and should not be seen from far away.

the ghost dots we're seeing are the visual dots for aircrafts further away than the furthest LOD model distance.

So your saying if you were to stay on that course we would eventually see what they are ghosting?

Thats not the case in my situation as I tried out that theory and more than covered the longest airfield that they could lift from

[raaaid]

the real mirage effect is to spot a city at which you never arrive

its very far away but the mirage makes it appear always close

i think it can even twist directions

pretend is that and not ghosting ;)

[5./JG27.Farber]

So your saying if you were to stay on that course we would eventually see what they are ghosting?

Thats not the case in my situation as I tried out that theory and more than covered the longest airfield that they could lift from


the ghost dots we're seeing are the visual dots for aircrafts further away than the furthest LOD model distance.

No, hes saying its a LOD dot... Not a polygon model. - thats why they "pop" when you get towards polygon model range.


This thread really belongs in mission builder section...

[hc_wolf]

Thanks Adonys. Very good explanation. Thanks everyone.

[Ze-Jamz]

I gave up last night due to these dots..I've never had so many as I did last night..in he space of 20mins flying between 4-6k I came across single, doubkes, formations and formations and even a single above it mimicking a fighter escort..

I gave up counting after 96 ghost dots... and not much fun

[5./JG27.Farber]

Yea it gets damn annoying when you about face 3 or 4 times to find nothing...

[Ze-Jamz]

Lol I done that last night 4 times to 4 different bomber formations in the space of about 6-7 mins..each formation had around 10dots..

I don't know what's changed cuz its never been this bad for me before and it was never single or doubles before only formations

[Robo.]

That makes sense adonys. Thanks for that post mate. It is very annoying indeed to lose your alt to dive on formation when they pop. With practice, you can actually recognise 'good' contacts from ghosts as ghosts have bigger dots and they usually fly too fast for a bomber group. Also, good hint is when you report a massive formation on 3 o'clock and your squadmates see nothing.

What Farber says is also true - despawn script. No issues for me either in the multisquad campaign.

otoh - he's not right with de Havilland FMs, they have been changed quite a few times and it was not possible to fly them like now in the older betas. The RAF overheating characteristics are changing constantly and rather randomly - just for the record. ;)

[5./JG27.Farber]

Thanks for clearing that up Robo. I dont fly red, the gauges are all funny. ;)

[IvanK]

So if this Ghosting thing is a Net Synch type thing, does a means exist to force a re synch to get everyone seeing the same thing ?

I presume this is the same reason you encounter aircraft with the gear down visually but clearly performance wise its retracted ?

[billeinstein]

Ghost BF 109 E-4 B with Icon on:
http://bbs1.dof.so:88/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-3033-1345123008.jpg

[billeinstein]

If u fly near, u'll find no aircraft is there. But the Icon is still visiable...

[JG52Krupi]

So if this Ghosting thing is a Net Synch type thing, does a means exist to force a re synch to get everyone seeing the same thing ?

I presume this is the same reason you encounter aircraft with the gear down visually but clearly performance wise its retracted ?

Yes, Think your right about the landing gear :(

Unfortunately as there is no dedicated multiplayer server tool I get the impression that these de-synch's are caused by steam...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I gave up last night due to these dots..I've never had so many as I did last night..in he space of 20mins flying between 4-6k I came across single, doubkes, formations and formations and even a single above it mimicking a fighter escort..

I gave up counting after 96 ghost dots... and not much fun
Same here.. I seem to recall, a few patches back that this was happening alot to, than it seemed to go away (fixxed?), that or I just didn't notice it that much.. But now it seems to be happening alot more with this last patch.. Really sucks chasing down these dots for 15 to 20min only to have the dissapear!

[5./JG27.Farber]

Same here.. I seem to recall, a few patches back that this was happening alot to, than it seemed to go away (fixxed?), that or I just didn't notice it that much.. But now it seems to be happening alot more with this last patch.. Really sucks chasing down these dots for 15 to 20min only to have the dissapear!

Certain things aggrevate the condition. The more AI flights in a mission for example. More flights the more chance. :rolleyes:

[Ze-Jamz]

Same here.. I seem to recall, a few patches back that this was happening alot to, than it seemed to go away (fixxed?), that or I just didn't notice it that much.. But now it seems to be happening alot more with this last patch.. Really sucks chasing down these dots for 15 to 20min only to have the dissapear!

No your right there...was bad at one point but definitely went away, didn't see many at all but now its worse then ever..

That's the first time since owning the game I've had to leave the server because of an issue and I just can't enjoy the game ...hope this gets sorted asap whatever it is

[5./JG27.Farber]

This is is now registered as a bug. I have provided a track and a mission but the devs email me and there are too many objects in the game, so I must make a new version.

You can vote for it at the bug tracker:

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/427

Bug #427


If anyone has a mission where they can find ghosts 100% please send it to me.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Just got an email from the devs, they have found the bug. We will have to wait for the solution. ;)

[hc_wolf]

Just got an email from the devs, they have found the bug. We will have to wait for the solution. ;)

5./JG27.Farber this is great news. Thank you.

After they fix bug they can tell us some sort of limit or sliding scale AI v humand and objects we can have in game at once :-)

[5./JG27.Farber]

5./JG27.Farber this is great news. Thank you.

After they fix bug they can tell us some sort of limit or sliding scale AI v humand and objects we can have in game at once :-)

Thats unrelated I dont see how that would come into it. From personal experience 27-40 AI is the max for ~50 players. I also think ground objects have a limit, although it is larger, maybe 2000 max. - for best overall performance anyway.

I am making a multiplay FMB for dummies pdf anyway. It will be ready soon, maybe you can give me feed back.

[Warhound]

Just got an email from the devs, they have found the bug. We will have to wait for the solution. ;)

Wow, if they actually fixed that i'll be over the moon.
Thanks for helping the devs find the cause Farber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ0BQUufUpE&t=0m35s

[ATAG_Colander]

just got an email from the devs, they have found the bug. We will have to wait for the solution. ;)

party!!!!!!!!

[engadin]

Just got an email from the devs, they have found the bug. We will have to wait for the solution. ;)

Thanks for your initiative and congrats for the quick positive result achieved from the 1C team.

[5./JG27.Farber]

None of it was possible with out BlackSix ;)

[adonys]

yeah.. but, forgive me if I am asking.. what about the patch with that fix?

[hc_wolf]

Thats unrelated I dont see how that would come into it. From personal experience 27-40 AI is the max for ~50 players. I also think ground objects have a limit, although it is larger, maybe 2000 max. - for best overall performance anyway.

I am making a multiplay FMB for dummies pdf anyway. It will be ready soon, maybe you can give me feed back.

Yes I have a limit of about 2000 objects in channel command and I cap the ai at 20 at the moment for each side. So max can be 40 ai in total at any one time.

So looks like I am spot on.

[Ze-Jamz]

I'll be so glad to see the back end of those ghost dots..