Is the main issue with 1C the lack of communication? Feedback = Consideration for us?

[Mysticpuma]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

[von Pilsner]

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/
Very well said, MP! I agree wholeheartedly... :D

[kristorf]

Very well written MP, say all that need to be said mucka

[Nitrous]

i have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "dear luthier/black6/1c, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as i am aware the complete opposite is evident from the rof forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the rof community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (i know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of clod players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original il2 can see that clod was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the flight sim community (ww2 combat of-course). For this reason i think so-many have been disappointed (i appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in graphics and realism for the ww2 combat community. As it currently stands for many players (i appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, i honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a pc all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the friday updates (actually any updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the top ten issues for users and the top ten that surely the developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the clod software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/blogs/

trust me when i say that this is not a rof thread, this is a thread i hope can stir a little passion in the development team to understand that i (i hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1c, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for clod.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much i typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing clod rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope i have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, mp

+1

[Codex]

While the genre is totally different, I love the Stalker series of games, and the new company, Vostok games, which was created by developers of the now closed Stalker II project have been very open to the public about whats going on with their new game Survarium.

http://vostokgames.com/en

[nearmiss]

Mysticpuma

You, I and many others have been loyal for a very long time to Il2 series. The dev team is up to their ears in whatever their focus is at the current time. Luthier and the dev team are doing their thing.

We have received some positive improvements with the recent beta patch.

When users and potential users aren't informed that is a problem mostly for developer, because you can't sell what you can't encourage people to buy.
The best way to encourage buyers is to communicate with good news frequently.

The TD keeps working on the IL2, and it continues to improve. I think if the TD team could improve the AI to a BOB II WOV standard and FMB to CFS2 standard. It could very well be all we could want with periodic updates to the graphics.

Air combat game genre with high quality realism appeal is an expensive process, and takes highly competent devs to produce. Then you have to allow for all the config issues with PC platform.

The console platform is easier, because all the config issues are resolved. What you see is what you get with a little squeaky toy remote. LOL

[Revvin]

I've not posted much here, I've been playing the IL-2 franchise since its first release but I'm really disappointed at the way this hotly anticipated addition to the franchise has been handled. Its not helped that the forums here have been massively trolled and certain members given far too many chances to behave only to return and carry on trolling.

I pre-ordered the collector's edition in the hope that this sim would give me the enjoyment the past titles in the franchise have but I was sadly mistaken. I'm a patient guy so I thought I'd wait and see what a few patches can do, I'm still waiting. I've gone from having hope that this sim can be fixed to all but giving up hope now and writing this off as the end of a truly wonderful simulation series.

Its true that other titles have had horrible launches, I buy most sims as they are released so know the feeling of waiting for games like Falcon 4.0, RoF or Lock On to be patched but their poor releases got patched and here we are over a year after release with CloD and thhere is still no light at the end of the tunnel, we're not just a few bugs away from making it into a stable release with a platform to expand into the next few years we're still waiting for fundamental problems to be fixed.

I've not posted much here because I wanted to wait and see, there was not point in feeding the negativity here or giving the trolls more ammunition but I feel like I'm at the end of the road with CloD and I'm looking towards other sims now to fill the void.

[SlipBall]

I've not posted much here, I've been playing the IL-2 franchise since its first release but I'm really disappointed at the way this hotly anticipated addition to the franchise has been handled. Its not helped that the forums here have been massively trolled and certain members given far too many chances to behave only to return and carry on trolling.

I pre-ordered the collector's edition in the hope that this sim would give me the enjoyment the past titles in the franchise have but I was sadly mistaken. I'm a patient guy so I thought I'd wait and see what a few patches can do, I'm still waiting. I've gone from having hope that this sim can be fixed to all but giving up hope now and writing this off as the end of a truly wonderful simulation series.

Its true that other titles have had horrible launches, I buy most sims as they are released so know the feeling of waiting for games like Falcon 4.0, RoF or Lock On to be patched but their poor releases got patched and here we are over a year after release with CloD and thhere is still no light at the end of the tunnel, we're not just a few bugs away from making it into a stable release with a platform to expand into the next few years we're still waiting for fundamental problems to be fixed.

I've not posted much here because I wanted to wait and see, there was not point in feeding the negativity here or giving the trolls more ammunition but I feel like I'm at the end of the road with CloD and I'm looking towards other sims now to fill the void.


That's too bad, I'm sorry to hear such things. Even in the state the game is in, I can have huge fun with it...you should post your system in your sig, maybe someone will have an idea for you to try.

[baronWastelan]

It's all part of the WWII USSR experience:

Comrade Pilot crash lands battle damaged airplane behind enemy lines. Pilot spends days, without food or sleep, working his way back to home base, killing 2 fascist invaders with his bare hands along the way. The next day after reporting back to his squadron, he is arrested, stripped of all rank, and sent to a penal battalion to clear minefields with a folding shovel. No explanations. It's the Soviet way, comrade. Next stop, glorious mecca of workers, Moscow.

[Walrus1]

I think the problem here has been a combination of things.

The biggest issue is technical. When the game came out it had serious technical problems that prevented it from being what both developers and consumers hoped it would be. (And expectations were really, really high).
Fixing these problems has been a long, difficult process apparently full of unexpected delays.

The second issue is communications. Part of this originates in problem one, the technical glitches. Timetable for fixing things keeps getting longer, so best estimates for fixes are wrong and some users get bitter or mean about it. This makes the developers reluctant to say anything because of the toxic forum environment. And yes, uncontrolled trollers/whiners had free reign on this forum for far far too long and really poisoned the air.

[Chivas]

Personally I don't believe there has been a lack of communication over the years. The problem is the game hasn't lived up to expectations, much of it misplaced by the community. There probably would have been more communication if the messege was good, but there hasn't been alot good to report over the last couple of years. Hopefully the devs will have some good things happen soon or the sim is toast.

[rjb1fgc]

Well, from the last post JG52Uther's "Sticky" above :
"Originally Posted by BlackSi
Probably still have to clarify a few things about the standard geymdeve in general:
1) The publishers do not like to spend money on "poslereliznoe" service problem projects. If the game fails, it is much cheaper than all instantly shut down and disband the team.
2) release of patches for the troubled project, which means the contents of the command is usually only possible through the advance allocation of money for new development. In fact, correcting the previous project "eaten through" money allocated to the next. There is next - it means there will be no patches for the previous one, bye.

Given the above, the decision to finish the first full release of the past usually means instant death.

Also, all of the above applies to the gaming industry in general and do not necessarily reflect the situation within 1C. "

Hopefully, they'll use the same "game engine" in the sequel and that corrections made to IT will have to apply to CoD also. But, given that we're talking "investors and publishers" here ...

[Feathered_IV]

I'm not so interested in more updates. What is needed are real results. Not the trifles that we've seen over the last year and a half.

[Continu0]

Hopefully, they'll use the same "game engine" in the sequel and that corrections made to IT will have to apply to CoD also. But, given that we're talking "investors and publishers" here ...

The same engine will be used, that´s why they are fixing CloD.

[PotNoodles]

I'm not so interested in more updates. What is needed are real results. Not the trifles that we've seen over the last year and a half.

+1 The updates have promised so much and delivered so very little so far. We are 15 months on and I am still getting launcher exe crashes after most single player games. How on earth this can still be happening after 15 months is a joke. I would expect to have atleast a stable game after this long or even at launch. I expect to have bugs in the games I buy, but all these stability issues are just a joke.

[catito14]

i have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "dear luthier/black6/1c, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as i am aware the complete opposite is evident from the rof forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the rof community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (i know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of clod players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original il2 can see that clod was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the flight sim community (ww2 combat of-course). For this reason i think so-many have been disappointed (i appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in graphics and realism for the ww2 combat community. As it currently stands for many players (i appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, i honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a pc all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the friday updates (actually any updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the top ten issues for users and the top ten that surely the developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the clod software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/blogs/

trust me when i say that this is not a rof thread, this is a thread i hope can stir a little passion in the development team to understand that i (i hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1c, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for clod.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much i typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing clod rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope i have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, mp

+111111111

[Skoshi Tiger]

I think the biggest communication problems and the biggest turn off for potential customers is the lack of updates of the official web site. Now I understand that that page is owned by the publishers and the Developers don't have access to it, but when you go to a site and that hasn't changed in a year, I wouldn't be looking any further.

Surely it is their job (part of advertising and selling the game) to sift through all the crap and reporting the positve developments that have occured. (yes there have been some!)

What are they actually doing for their money?

It would also be a good place for a development blog where the developers have post their vision for the future of the series without continual attack.

Maybe that is not possible at the official but how about a locked thread for developers? (not an original idea - the seperate update discussion thread is a positive move but the update theread should be for Developers only)

The only problem I have with people venting their spleen here is that it obscures all the positives, and their is no incentive for the developers to express their creative idea's.


(Any way I'm off for a week at the beach house - no internet). Hope to come back to a New patch/updates/more positive forum.

Cheers!

[FS~Phat]

+1 The updates have promised so much and delivered so very little so far. We are 15 months on and I am still getting launcher exe crashes after most single player games. How on earth this can still be happening after 15 months is a joke. I would expect to have atleast a stable game after this long or even at launch. I expect to have bugs in the games I buy, but all these stability issues are just a joke.


The latest launcher crashes look to have been caused by a few MS .net security updates according to some testing in another thread here.
I wouldnt expect them to necessarily catch all of these types of issues in a beta. Thats why its a beta! ;)

If you repair your .net files it reverts back prior to the latest security updates and appears to fix the launcher crash when exiting.

I'll make sure B6 gets this message back to the devs about the .net updates.

[Pudfark]

The latest launcher crashes look to have been caused by a few MS .net security updates according to some testing in another thread here.
I wouldnt expect them to necessarily catch all of these types of issues in a beta. Thats why its a beta! ;)

If you repair your .net files it reverts back prior to the latest security updates and appears to fix the launcher crash when exiting.

I'll make sure B6 gets this message back to the devs about the .net updates.

Phat, not every thing you say? Do I agree with. You have my respect.
Your efforts to remind the forum members on fixes or temporary fixes are
from the heart. Thank You. I hope this works for all.

[Jaws2002]

The problem here is not communication. It's the lack of people able to fix the game in the team. It doesn't matter what they promis if they don't know if they can actually do it, or how to do it.

[Wolf_Rider]

They've delived a new engine, they are tesing it... the last patch was to further test the DX9 side of things (we don't want the whine brigade carrying on about dropped DX9 support now, do we??

[Codex]

Nope what I am saying and said is these customers that say they are not going to buy the next 1C product or wait to buy the next 1C product are just saying it out of frustration and or in some weak attempt to get a rise out of someone.. They know deep down they don't mean it and that they will more than likly be first in line to buy the next 1C product.

S! Ace

I take exception to that, because I for one have said I wont buy the next chapter in this new series, and it's not because I want to get a rise out of someone.

What I want is to voice my stance to the "powers that be" that if they want me to part with my $$$ on this sim I want to make sure I'll be buying a "usable" product. I want to know that features that are advertised will be available when I march in to the store to pick up my copy.

The thing that I'm peeved off about, and most here I would assume, is the fact that on the day I picked up my $110 special edition of CloD, it didn't work, and as a result of that I wont be buying it the next chapter if BoM turns out to be the same. I'm a dedicated flight simer, since lucas arts SWOLW, but I'm no shmuk.

Don't get me wrong, for me it's not a matter of the cost, hell I'd be more that happy to pay double for a SE if I knew I would be getting what I pay for on the day, and I can live with bugs because I know (well can image at the very least) the challeges the devs have in front of them. But I reject the notiion that the paying customer should pay for product that isn't finished.

If the devs need money then adopt the model DCS have done with their beta programs. Offer a beta for a cost and then pay for additional a/c as time goes on. I'm happy with that beacuse I'm being informed upfront what I'm paying for.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit rough, but the constant bashing of people who voice their opinions because they're not happy is really getting old.

Do you honestly think there would be this much "whining" if the product actually worked?

[simast]

If I may add this?

"Or Luthier to give a reasonable explanation of events and time lines for the next several months."

Please no time estimates, that will only make it worse as the developers never met a single deadline.

[csThor]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

Ever seen a dog trying to walk on his two hind legs? Like those dogs in the circus? I've seen that, but it only worked for a few seconds, then the dog reverted to moving on his four legs (his natural way of moving).

Trying to talk luthier into constant and meaningful communication is just like trying to teach a dog how to move on two legs only. It may work for a few seconds but it will always remain an unnatural way of moving - just like comminicating and doing PR-stuff is going against luthier's nature. He's a "Don't disturb me, I'm working on something" kind of guy who'd love nothing more than work on his Q.T. without being bothered. He doesn't like publicity, he doesn't like having to talk about his work, to explain his ideas and concepts. The way I see it the poor BlackSix is the fig leaf who has to appease the crowd with a few crumbs ...

I don't expect anything from MG in this department anymore, the times of Oleg are over and are not going to come back.

[_YoYo_]

@ mysticpuma

+1000

but Im affraid nothing will be changed. We will see next alpha/beta/gamma patch in next month. Couple things will be solved, again couple will be broken. Not a final patch with all. Its a never ending story (but with small hope after near 1,5 year).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MccmHwA-c4U

[tintifaxl]

The same engine will be used, that´s why they are fixing CloD.

They'll fix the engine, that doesn't equate to fixing CloD. No need to fix dm/fm bugs of planes that are not used in the sequel. Nor the Channel map.

[FS~Phat]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.


Cheers, MP

Nicely put Mystic. I have made a new sticky for people to post their questions.
I hope to get some of them addressed but not all of them I expect will be addressed to your satisfaction. (everyones)

I hope by putting a little bit of effort and structure around your questions that we will get some of the answers we are looking for.

Keeping in mind it is unlikely we will get a response to everything and I think probably unreasonable to expect so.

Some of the questions still need to be asked even if they have no decision or timeframe yet but please be understanding that some things just cant be given answers because they either havent got around to assessing it because its not a priority or because they need to wait for the announcement of the sequel and around the MMO aspects before further information can be provided.

That and the fact that software development is not strictly science, its a bit of a black art, mixed with science and creativity so its unfortunately not as simple as 1+1=2. ;)

As I have also mentioned prior it is also hard and takes a lot of time for the translation from English to Russian, for these things to be tabled and discussed with the team and then translated back from Russian to English.

It is more important that the team work on the patch and sequel than spend time appeasing everyones various foibles with the game, and it's also a privilege not a right to have communication from the developer on the forum.

Constructive Questions please.. I will be harsh with anyone in breach of the rules as I have made it very clear! >> http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33120

[Ze-Jamz]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

Yep...good post MP

[Wolf_Rider]

But that is the point I'm trying to make, why are people "whinged over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over" ?



That's a very good question... what do they hope to achieve by it and retain credibility in doing so?
and make no mistake though, some really do seem to enjoy it.

[CaptainDoggles]

Perhaps it's because getting any info out of 1C:Maddox is like pulling teeth, and people feel that their concerns are not being heard/acknowledged/addressed?

[Codex]

That's a very good question... what do they hope to achieve by it and retain credibility in doing so?
and make no mistake though, some really do seem to enjoy it.

Well I'm not going to speak for others, but what I wanted to achieve was to make my disappointment heard. I couldn't careless about credibility, at the end of the day who is more or less credible than the next simmer in this place anyway? The devs know what they're doing, the customers know what they want, why is it so hard to meet in the middle?

I think Mystic's post is spot on, it's not rocket surgery.

[Pluto]

to quote:

Sorry if this all sounds a bit rough, but the constant bashing of people who voice their opinions because they're not happy is really getting old.

Do you honestly think there would be this much "whining" if the product actually worked?
__________________

agree 100 % !

Everyone here who is not pleased and writes it, is considered as a whiner or troll and gets instantly bashed by the f...... fanboys here or even banned by the admins cause they only like yeasayers.

No need to apologize for anything mate!
:grin:

[SG1_Lud]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

[...]

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

IMHO the main issue is that the new dev team are facing big problems with the code they inheritated. They are struggling to fix here and there, and in the process they break other things.

The secondary issue is that they don't tell us the truth. (Well they have, sort off. It is in an assorted collection of posts by B6 and by some members here who have enough time following the series).

I have faith in this team. They are the the ones that can make it.

I think they need all our help. Personally, I tried to help by allm means I have at reach: buying licenses for friends, helping with the bugtracker, and shutting up my mouth when I felt so angry I wanted to rant here.

I feel my part of the job is done and I wish they will do theirs.

S!


PD: Regarding the bugtracker,I am sure they are listening, and they already fixed or added things reported there. I am positive they will complete the list when they start to take out their hands of the sticky pastry.

[FS~Phat]

to quote:

Sorry if this all sounds a bit rough, but the constant bashing of people who voice their opinions because they're not happy is really getting old.

Do you honestly think there would be this much "whining" if the product actually worked?
__________________

agree 100 % !

Everyone here who is not pleased and writes it, is considered as a whiner or troll and gets instantly bashed by the f...... fanboys here or even banned by the admins cause they only like yeasayers.

No need to apologize for anything mate!
:grin:

Im sorry you see it that way but we dont ban just for the fun of it you know.
As has been said before, constructive criticism is welcomed. Its the bashing and non-factual comments and abuse that get people into trouble. Be careful with those kinds of comments as your walking a thin line there mate. :) I at times myself am critical of development and support well thought out discussions about issues, just as I have for Mystic's mature approach. Its a potential hornets nest but he has made some relevant points without attacking anyone or being rude and disrespectful. He too is also walking a thin line but it's his thought and consideration that has him on the right side of the line! ;)

[Vengeanze]

Good post, MysticPuma.
You end your post with saying "...it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?"

The anticipations were high, like you said, and 1C tried to deliver but misjudged the effort needed.
Now the game just costs money and takes time from the sequel.
Check the last quote of B6 in this thread.
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32600

Lets file this game under "Too high ambitions. Couldn't deliver." and get ready for flying a Yak. :)

Gonna go play some Fifa whilst dreaming of the Essex again.g

[Codex]

If you don't care about credibility, then why should the developers put a foot forward? Why should they treat you as credible?? What's the point of "meeting in the middle", when there is no middle? the developers put a foot forward and it is instantly stomped on





I actually don't blame the developers for their silence, considering the amount of abuse they've been subjected too and credibility isn't of any concern

I don't care if the devs take me as being credible or not, what do I have to prove? Nothing. My credibility comes from my credit card and my knowledge as a programmer. I know what its like to develop software and I know the pressure these blokes are under. But that doesn't take away the fact that I am a paying customer, they need people like you and me to survive.

There is always a middle ground and I feel they're stepping in the right direction with latest patch. I have never bagged the devs or pointed the finger at anyone but I do have the choice to continue to support this project, which at the moment, has waned, hence I'm now taking a wait and see approach.

I've said on many occasions that the best thing the devs can do is be open honest, that way we all know where we stand. I would have been happy to have waited another year or more for CloD to have come out, as long as it was a polished product. As a paying customer I shouldn't have to worry about the internal politics of what goes on, I can get that crap for free on ABC TV during question time in Parliament.

Besides if they're remaining silent because they're worried about the abuse, 10+ years of IL-2 should have toughened them up by now ;)

[carguy_]

I think they need all our help. Personally, I tried to help by allm means I have at reach: buying licenses for friends, helping with the bugtracker, and shutting up my mouth when I felt so angry I wanted to rant here.

I feel my part of the job is done and I wish they will do theirs.

S!
S!

That`s what is called help around here. No trolling and insulting needed. Cheers!:grin:

[addman]

As Oleg is no longer present and most (if not all) of the old team is gone I, personally, see little credibility from the current MG team looking back at the last year of development. It's not that I don't want to believe in them but the "results" speaks for themselves. I have to give them big credit for trying over and over again though, it's like watching someone trying to escape from quicksand. As a lot of members on this forum, I have been around the block for quite a while and all I can say is that how luthier and his team choose to work and communicate on CloD will reflect on the sales on BoM (if it ever will be released).

Some may argue that "you will buy BoM even if you're saying you won't" and that might have been true if it was Oleg and the old team but I feel no obligations whatsoever to luthier and his crew nor do I feel I have to buy it just to support the genre, I'm not that desperate for a decent WWII combat flight game. Also, it only gives developers the signal that it's ok to release mediocre software just because a certain set of people are so desperate for it. As for what the OP said, I personally don't give squat about dev updates if there is no substance to them. A working patch with REAL fixes and a thorough readme is all I (and many others) want, not hot air and fancy empty words.

P.S Good thread!

[Allons!]

Again, good post, MysticPuma.

The situation is quite muddly because other then in regular markets we as customers cant choose between different products all satisfying at least our basic needs (a playable and to some point realistic game) and as well the producers have a very small customer niche they have to deal with until they dont want to develop something completely other and give away all their WWII filghtsim skills. So the Devs and us are reliant on each other.

I would describe the overall situation not as being a producer/customer relation but more of a company/shareholder relation.

A relationship that is unsatisfying for us because normal customer rights dont give you a solution. Its unsatisfying as well for them because constant communications during the development process, transparency, honesty, credibility and all these factors that shareholders demand, are definitely not prime assets of the "vexed russian soul".

Most of us here are ourselves working, in whatever business, most of us have experiences in some kind of project management (in private and/or business life) and we generally await to recieve the same level of professionality that we try to deliver in our real lives.

The latest patch has shown all the problems that constantly accompany this game: Much has been done by the developers, stuff that hasnt been demanded at all (tracers ricochet), some that has been demanded (AI barrel rolls) and has been fixed, some that we all maybe didnt recognise yet. Nothing besides a "hooray, here it is" was communcated. We are still waiting for a simple list of features or fixes that the devs included. The community still and again has to find out tweaks and tricks how to get this game running, what to do and what not to do. No wonder, there isnt much cheering for this patch that has obvious and hidden pros and obvious cons.

But then, its one thing, to whine unprofessionality. We all could show some more professionality as well. Is somebody tells us his game is not working, we should demand the systems specs and give clear orders where to look at. If we get something working, describe it here. Update the bugtracker, if something is fully or partially fixed.

To me, most of CoD works right now. I have my fun at KV13 and ATAG and with the channel battles campaigns from desastersoft. Sure, much has to be done but i can wait for it being fixed..

[MadTommy]

Its the total lack of communication in even the most basic forms that has led me to be feed up with the game and the dev team.

I don't care about regular Friday updates..but i do expect clarification about bugs & game play issues and missing features. I also expect change logs for patches.

As there is no input form the Dev team on these forums these forums serve no purpose apart for the constant arguments and childish back and forth you get between the unhappy customers and the die hard supporters.

These forums should be closed until the dev team are actually willing to contribute some much needed info to the community.

[MACADEMIC]

Not sure if regular updates would change this as much as a positive feedback from existing customers that the game is working well and is providing a satisfying experience. I'm one of those sitting on the fence awaiting good news before investing into a new PC, and CloD, or BoM later on.

I love the genre but since the game's introduction have witnessed so much frustration among the early adopters here that it hasn't been a recommendation for making the investment (yet).

MAC

[ACE-OF-ACES]

That may have been the case once,
That is your opinion and your welcome to it.. But based on my 20+ years of flight simming and hanging out in flight simming forums I have found what I said to be true.. Granted gamming has changed in the past 20 years but human nature has not.. Which is why what I said still stands

[ACE-OF-ACES]

S! Ace

I take exception to that, because I for one have said I wont buy the next chapter in this new series, and it's not because I want to get a rise out of someone.
Well first things you want to do is take note that I did not say everyone fits the discription I provided

Next thing you will want to take note of is I gave other reasons than trying to get a rise out of someone..

Only if the shoe fits should you take exception, and sence you said the shoe does not fit, not need for you to take exception

[SiThSpAwN]

Well first things you want to do is take note that I did not say everyone fits the discription I provided

Next thing you will want to take note of is I gave other reasons than trying to get a rise out of someone..

Only if the shoe fits should you take exception, and sence you said the shoe does not fit, not need for you to take exception


I'd like to say I wont buy the next one till I "wait and see" but who am I kidding... l love WWII air combat :)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I'd like to say I wont buy the next one till I "wait and see" but who am I kidding... l love WWII air combat :)
Exactally!

I mean it would be one thing if this was the mid 1990 aka the hey-day of PC flight sims..

Where we had choices in flight sims.. ala Dynamix (RB, AOTP, AOE), MICROPROSE (PAW1942, EAW), Spectrun Holobyte (Falcon 3.0), LucasArts (SWOTL), etc..

But we don't!

The hey-day of flight sims has long since passed..

Game makers and those who invest in games realised a long time ago that flight sims are a nitch market.. Read not alot of money to be made there..

Thus the only people who do them these days are those who just love what they do and know that there are a few who love what they do and will buy thier product, thus filling the nitch!

But I fear this CoD experance is going to drive away the few flight sim makers left in that the customers these days are far less willing to work with them like they were in the past and far more demanding and expect prefection when prefection can and never will be reached by anyone

[SiThSpAwN]

This experience will hurt the newcomers and casual crowd as far as flight sims go... I dont think the hardcore simmers can honestly say they will not buy the next sim (if any) from this group... they might be hesitant... but you know you want it lol....

[ATAG_Doc]

The only thing about this that could be a problem is even hardcore IL2 people have limits. And they still get attracted to other types of games. Not that it matters to 1C. If you bought it and used the disk as a drink coaster that's great for them. But the community continuity suffers greatly. You have people that start other titles and get totally emerged and they're gone.

[SiThSpAwN]

Sure, but if I want to play a WWII sim what are my choices, now WoWP seems like an advanced version of Combat for Atari and while War Thunder seems like it will be closer to what we want, many wont like grinding xp for planes... at any rate, until there is some decent competition, this is what we have and to be honest, I logged on to ATAG Sunday morning and had a blast... or got blasted... :)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

This experience will hurt the newcomers and casual crowd as far as flight sims go...
Agreed 100% on the casual crowd.. But if the new commers are 'flight simmers' as in soon to become hardcore types..

Than they will do as all have done over the past 20 years.. Buy it ASAP.. Oh sure some will say they will not buy it, or wait to buy it, but even they know deep down that they will more than likly be first in line to buy it.

I dont think the hardcore simmers can honestly say they will not buy the next sim (if any) from this group... they might be hesitant... but you know you want it lol....
Bingo!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

This is so ridiculous! So it's our fault that 1C failed for the last 7 years?
Nope.. read it again and note I was talking about the future of flight sims.. As in the few that are left making flight sims will see this experance (i.e. exchange between the maker and the customers) as a good reason to not make any new flight sims and go for the easy buck and make XBox games..

That is to say there is a point where the flight sims makers love for making flight sims can not overcome the hate they recive from the majority of the customers..

Just human nature

You do something you love to do, but most people don't apreicate what you do, chances are your going to find something else to do.

[addman]

This experience will hurt the newcomers and casual crowd as far as flight sims go... I dont think the hardcore simmers can honestly say they will not buy the next sim (if any) from this group... they might be hesitant... but you know you want it lol....

I know I will want it but can honestly say I won't buy BoM unless it's in a much better state at release than CloD was since it's basically just a continuation on the same engine it must be miles better by the time it's released right? As I stated before, this is a new team, new manager so I don't give them the benefit of the doubt that I would've given Oleg and Co, luthier and his teams track record isn't spectacular by any means so far. Prove me wrong luthier, create a spectacular sequel/add-on/MMO or whatever it will be and I will hurl money at you.

[fox3]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

+1

[PotNoodles]

I know I will want it but can honestly say I won't buy BoM unless it's in a much better state at release than CloD was since it's basically just a continuation on the same engine it must be miles better by the time it's released right? As I stated before, this is a new team, new manager so I don't give them the benefit of the doubt that I would've given Oleg and Co, luthier and his teams track record isn't spectacular by any means so far. Prove me wrong luthier, create a spectacular sequel/add-on/MMO or whatever it will be and I will hurl money at you.

+1- I'm also going to wait to see what happens before splashing my cash on the sequel, I'm sure we will find some honest people in these forums telling use about the state of Bom and any of it's bugs.

[Force10]

As in the few that are left making flight sims will see this experance (i.e. exchange between the maker and the customers) as a good reason to not make any new flight sims

Or...they will use this as a learning experience and realize it's important at release to make sure the sim functions on some level. You would think that's a no-brainer but apparently some are shocked that customers get upset when the product they purchased doesn't really work.

[jimbop]

ToThe only thing about this that could be a problem is even hardcore IL2 people have limits. And they still get attracted to other types of games. Not that it matters to 1C...You have people that start other titles and get totally emerged and they're gone.

Exactly right. I have a quick look at each patch but there's nothing (yet) to pull me back. My *very* limited free time is better spent doing something that doesn't frustrate me. And frankly, CoD does frustrate me at the moment. I'd kind of like to be able to start my hurri, for instance. So it's mostly EVE online for me until 'the' patch arrives.

And if the usual crowd honestly think that the guaranteed purchases of the tiny remaining number of MG devotees will make BoM the financial success it desperately needs to be then they should think again. CoD needs to get working, fast.

[SiThSpAwN]

Or...they will use this as a learning experience and realize it's important at release to make sure the sim functions on some level. You would think that's a no-brainer but apparently some are shocked that customers get upset when the product they purchased doesn't really work.

Unfortunately we wont know if they learned their lessons, that is the ones that should learn from this... the publisher that pushed this sim out as it was... they havent come on their own forums and stated their mistake. At least I havent seen any communication from 1c about all this...

[ATAG_Doc]

To

Exactly right. I have a quick look at each patch but there's nothing (yet) to pull me back. My *very* limited free time is better spent doing something that doesn't frustrate me. And frankly, CoD does frustrate me at the moment. I'd kind of like to be able to start my hurri, for instance. So it's mostly EVE online for me until 'the' patch arrives.

And if the usual crowd honestly think that the guaranteed purchases of the tiny remaining number of MG devotees will make BoM the financial success it desperately needs to be then they should think again. CoD needs to get working, fast.

Some guy (and credit goes to him for doing it) made a video on how he started the Hurricane.

Damn video was like 10 minutes long. It shouldn't be this way. You shouldn't have to do it.

I've been looking at that DayZ and I just logged into a server first time last night.

There was an update to it each day working on bugs. Not a blight update a real patch daily!

I'm not bashing them. I love this sim I really do. But I am starting to have doubts. B6 had been awesome and patient. I know its 1C and they have their hands tied and there is nothing he can do right now.

B6 if you read this we and not really angry at you. You just happen to be the guy sitting in that possition when frustration boils over.

But that's the nature of the job you hold. Don't take it personal. We love you man!

[SiThSpAwN]

I am sure they know the issues, and if I was a gambling man, which I am not, specially when it comes to flight sims, I would expect some sort of hotfix or updated beta this week or next to address the start up issues... but that is just a guess on my part...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Or...they will use this as a learning experience and realize it's important at release to make sure the sim functions on some level. You would think that's a no-brainer but apparently some are shocked that customers get upset when the product they purchased doesn't really work.
The only shocking part is that in this day and age some customers expect there to be no bugs upon release..

Why?

Because in this day and age it is an unrealistic expectation!

The simple truth, that apears to be too simple for some, is that most if not all software is released with bugs!

As a mater of fact, simple truth is putting it nicely, FACT would be a more accurate discription!!

The only thing more shocking than this is you and yours who keep refering to CoD as 'a game that does NOT function at some level' or 'can be NOT be played by anyone'.

The fact that many are playing CoD everyday of the week should give those like you a clue that such statments are false..

But that does not stop you and yours from constantly repeating the lie..

And since we know you and yours are smart enough to realise it is a lie

One can only conclude that you are (a) Not man enough to admit your wrong or (b) Have an adgenda and admiting your wrong would hinder said agenda

[Force10]

The only shocking part is that in this day and age some customers expect there to be no bugs upon release..




OK....a little miscommunication here. Your confusing "functions on some level" with bug free. I never said bug free....just wanted it to work within 50% of how they promoted it through the years. (IE: Dynamic weather, SU-26, Bailout animations, AI that surpasses 1946, Radio commands, etc. etc. etc.)

[Force10]

They never promoted any of those features. Those were just things that they were working on.

In any case, thanks for a great example of why a developer should never tell anyone what they are working on.

I guess you never saw the "promotional" DVD they put in 1946 that showed Dynamic weather/clouds in action....animated bailouts too if I recall. Do you ever check your facts before you post David?

[vpmedia]

The only shocking part is that in this day and age some customers expect there to be no bugs upon release..

Why?

Because in this day and age it is an unrealistic expectation!

The simple truth, that apears to be too simple for some, is that most if not all software is released with bugs!

As a mater of fact, simple truth is putting it nicely, FACT would be a more accurate discription!!

The only thing more shocking than this is you and yours who keep refering to CoD as 'a game that does NOT function at some level' or 'can be NOT be played by anyone'.

The fact that many are playing CoD everyday of the week should give those like you a clue that such statments are false..

But that does not stop you and yours from constantly repeating the lie..

And since we know you and yours are smart enough to realise it is a lie

One can only conclude that you are (a) Not man enough to admit your wrong or (b) Have an adgenda and admiting your wrong would hinder said agenda



So these people who are critical about CoD all got a hidden agenda? :-)

[Volksieg]

They never promoted any of those features. Those were just things that they were working on.

In any case, thanks for a great example of why a developer should never tell anyone what they are working on.

That's not strictly true if one considers trailers and interviews as part of the promotional machine, David. Oleg and Ilya also mentioned that the SU-26 would be featured in an interview with, IIRC, PC Gamer... and interviews are a major part of software promotion. Force10 has already mentioned the promotional DVD that came with 1946 featuring dynamic weather.

Of course... most of that was when it was called "Storm of War" and I suppose one could suggest that the name change means it is a different game entirely. ;)

EDIT: Infact here is an example: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/02/08/il-2-sturmovik-cliffs-of-dover-interview-we-talk-to-oleg-maddox-and-ilya-shevchenko/

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So these people who are critical about CoD all got a hidden agenda? :-)
Nope.. Please re-read what I wrote and note that I provided two options to choose from

[SiThSpAwN]

Nope.. Please re-read what I wrote and note that I provided two options to choose from

Perhaps there is a 3rd option, people want to convince others not to fly so that enemy bombers are free of escorts and can be easily shot down :)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

OK....a little miscommunication here. Your confusing "functions on some level" with bug free. I never said bug free....just wanted it to work within 50% of how they promoted it through the years. (IE: Dynamic weather, SU-26, Bailout animations, AI that surpasses 1946, Radio commands, etc. etc. etc.)
A little miscommunication?

More like intentional miscommunication IMHO.. But I digress

And after reading your last post I was reminded of another 'other' shocking thing in this day and age

How some customers confuse development progress WIP (what you call promoted) items with a 100% guaranteed it will be included in the final product items

That type of confusion on the part of the customer is IMHO more than enough to explain AND JUSTIFY why 1C hesitates to provide any form of 'news' update in this or any other forum

[David Hayward]

I guess you never saw the "promotional" DVD they put in 1946 that showed Dynamic weather/clouds in action....animated bailouts too if I recall. Do you ever check your facts before you post David?

A video of stuff they're working on is still not promoting the game that actually ships. This has been explained many, many times on this forum.

[Volksieg]

Perhaps there is a 3rd option, people want to convince others not to fly so that enemy bombers are free of escorts and can be easily shot down :)

:D :D :D

I think the biggest problem for the forum is that, stuck between the "Everything is wonderful and this game is fantastic in every possible way" brigade (Who, in all honesty, I have never witnessed on here! Food for thought.) and the "Nobody can play this! It's an absolute disaster and the most horrific thing to happen in the history of mankind" brigade, there is the....

"I love this game BUT.....Real Info I can get my teeth into? Patches? Real Fixes? Can I get my money's worth please?" brigade.

I'd say that is the majority of people, sadly, and they spend most of their time gasping for air, trying to get their voices heard and either being drowned out by, or accused of being members of, the former two examples.

Some facts:

1) No matter how much anyone may protest to the contrary, this is not the game we were promised.

2) Although the small size of the team must be considered if one is to debate from a position other than ignorance, communication needs to be far more intensive (Even if the dev team think we won't understand a word they are talking about!) Sometimes people like to see that something is happening, even if they don't really know what all the charts and technical jargon actually means. (They won't admit they don't know what it means either! That's part of the PR game. ;) ) The team is small so fixes will take a lot longer than, say, something released by a massive studio... just keep us informed!

3) None of this is actually B6s fault.

4) The game is playable.... though not as it should be. It is playable and I'm certainly not going to pretend I haven't had tons of fun with it even if I am annoyed at the current state of the software.

[SiThSpAwN]

I dont know that I have seen anyone on here that said the game is "Everything is wonderful and this game is fantastic in every possible way" BUT I see alot of people trying to make the best of a tough situation...

Regardless... I hope that the improvements continue...

[Volksieg]

Regardless... I hope that the improvements continue...

Would be nice. lol

[Force10]

A video of stuff they're working on is still not promoting the game that actually ships. This has been explained many, many times on this forum.

Hmmm...putting a DVD showcasing all kinds of cool features that won't be in the game. Interesting business strategy...I wonder why all developers don't use the shell game strategy?

[senseispcc]

.
Communication or no communication make no difference it is a great game that needs some perfecting but it is not easy because PC's are complicated and the system software to drive them is also and the software to use this all together is even more so because there are thousands of pc's with a dozens systems and all games must work on all of them without errors. Be patient.
:):grin::-P:cool:

[David Hayward]

Hmmm...putting a DVD showcasing all kinds of cool features that won't be in the game. Interesting business strategy...I wonder why all developers don't use the shell game strategy?

I think they expected most of the people watching those videos to understand the concept of "work in progress".

[fox3]

.
Communication or no communication make no difference it is a great game that needs some perfecting but it is not easy because PC's are complicated and the system software to drive them is also and the software to use this all together is even more so because there are thousands of pc's with a dozens systems and all games must work on all of them without errors. Be patient.
:):grin::-P:cool:

We have been patient and the game engine has isues as we know. All we are asking for is some news on how things are going a road map if you like. Then i dont mind the wait as long as i know it will be fixed. At the moment nobody knows anything and people are suspect that there gunna throw in the towel with CLOD.

[David Hayward]

At the moment nobody knows anything and people are suspect that there gunna throw in the towel with CLOD.

And? If they give up the game is over for them and us.

[SiThSpAwN]

You wont see a Road Map till the get the game engine firing on all cylinders because there are so many unknowns with fixing code it would be a bad idea to try and plan the future....

[Fearless_1]

The funny part about this is that they "redesigned" the whole graphics thing once already when Oleg was on board. Now they brought it up to "advanced beta" level by (according to you) spending a whole lotta money. All because they care what we think of the present game, not because they are about to repackage it with Soviet planes for their home audience.

And my theory about them bouncing with whatever they made and NOT supporting Cliffs of Dover is more far fetched? No common sense in that one what so ever.

I'm pretty sure that if most reasonable people agreed that 1C: Maddox gave at least a damn then the flight sim market wouldn't be just a niche. You speak from a group of a few hundred people that still actually have this installed and play it after receiving a broken game with no support, and yet at the same time you represent "most reasonable people."

:roll:

BTW, do you know what I played today that wasn't broken? Il-2 w/ HSFX 6, and Rise of Flight.

[Force10]

b) If your in the mood to complain about 1C's support of CoD you conveniently leave out the fact that they took the time and money to re-write the graphics engine.


The only reason they "took time and money" to rewrite the graphics engine is because their future sales of expansions and MMO rely on it. Don't pretend they are doing it because they feel bad about the release of COD and are making it good for those customers. They are doing it for sales of things to come...they are done with COD as far as expanding it in anyway.

[Walrus1]

The only reason they "took time and money" to rewrite the graphics engine is because their future sales of expansions and MMO rely on it. Don't pretend they are doing it because they feel bad about the release of COD and are making it good for those customers. They are doing it for sales of things to come...they are done with COD as far as expanding it in anyway.

Of course they are acting in their own self interest by fixing the game engine.

If they fix the engine, COD becomes better/more playable, we are happier as users, and their next project is more likely to be successful and make money. Maybe even a few more copies of COD are sold.

Win/Win.

And if you want content expansion for COD, I am sure that 3rd parties will eventually add things. I would guess that if there were not so many other problems, the dev team could have provided more COD game content, but they probably have far exceed their project budget for COD with all the overhauling and troubleshooting.

Right now, just hope that the team can fix the bugs/create smooth running code that is the foundation for everything.

[He111]

The only reason they "took time and money" to rewrite the graphics engine is because their future sales of expansions and MMO rely on it. Don't pretend they are doing it because they feel bad about the release of COD and are making it good for those customers. They are doing it for sales of things to come...they are done with COD as far as expanding it in anyway.

Totally agree, i've had no problem with the graphics engine. in fact I'm still enjoying the game without the latest patch.

The only problem I'm having is Design issues (offliners need 1946 mission recorder) and small but annoying bugs (strange AI, things not working) ..and lack of new planes etc

.

[Force10]

Win/Win.



Agreed. It's just that it was phrased that they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.

[PotNoodles]

That is your opinion and your welcome to it..

Just know that I and many others don't agree with it..

As for your graphics re-write comment..

I love the way you and yours try to have your cake and eat it too!

For examples

a) If your in the mood to complain about 1C's programers you point out the initial graphics engine was so bad that they had to do a re-write of the graphics engine.
b) If your in the mood to complain about 1C's support of CoD you conveniently leave out the fact that they took the time and money to re-write the graphics engine.



This is your opinion, but you must know when you look though these forums that I and many others don't agree with you. I would agree with the other posts that said the Graphics redesign was done mainly for the next game and not because they cared about use. I think you'll find when you look around in life that it's the samaritains that care and not the people who are out to make money as was shown in this games release.. Developers care about their product and how it sells they don't care about you. Do you honestly think they have done the rewrite on COD if a new game wasn't on the cards?

[carguy_]

Developers care about their product and how it sells they don't care about you. Do you honestly think they have done the rewrite on COD if a new game wasn't on the cards?
Irrelevant. Another title was to be created from the very start of the whole project.

[catito14]

I can´t understand, if it´s really true that they will keep working in ALL the aspects of CloD and not only those who will serve to the sequel (i.e.: map), why Luthier don´t make an statement about all these speculations and throw some light on the matter. I´m sure if they does that, the confidence in the project will increase.

[PotNoodles]

Irrelevant. Another title was to be created from the very start of the whole project.

I think you will find it is rellevent because I was answering a question that was about the developers caring about use. However, if people like yourself are not willing to listen to an answer without twisting it into something it's not, then it's pointless answering you at all. Where is the link that says a new title was to be created from the very start of the whole project? Not that it matters because that's not the question I was answering before, it's more out of curiosity.

[bongodriver]

I can´t understand, if it´s really true that they will keep working in ALL the aspects of CloD and not only those who will serve to the sequel (i.e.: map), why Luthier don´t make an statement about all these speculations and throw some light on the matter. I´m sure if they does that, the confidence in the project will increase.


Yeah thats such a brilliant idea, because if Luthier himself comes here and said something then 'everyone' would just be so much happier because none of the whiners think Luthier is a liar/cheat/conman/incompetent (delete as appropriate)
I mean come on, it's just riddiculous how after all the fuss about 1C giving us a community manager they actually did it and then expected us to believe a word he says.

[Volksieg]

For those who do wonder why, put yourself into 1C shoes for a moment.. And ask yourself


I would suggest that anyone who has been in a long term relationship with a woman understands this feeling only too well. :D

[Force10]

You are taking my post a little out of context.(shocker) I was only replying to this point of yours.


b) If your in the mood to complain about 1C's support of CoD you conveniently leave out the fact that they took the time and money to re-write the graphics engine.



The way you phrase it here, you make it sound like they are re-writing the engine as some act of "nobility". If the COD engine was only used for this title, you might have a point. Since future money relies on it, the devs "taking time and money" to fix the engine isn't as noble as your phrasing implies.

[David Hayward]

The only reason they "took time and money" to rewrite the graphics engine is because their future sales of expansions and MMO rely on it.

That is some pretty airtight logic. I haven't the slightest clue why you seem to think it's a problem.

They fix the game. We all win.

They don't fix the game. We all lose.

Not happy that it's taking so long? Too bad. Find something else to do. Constant whining is not going to make it happen any faster.

[ICU_DIE535]

That is some pretty airtight logic. I haven't the slightest clue why you seem to think it's a problem.

They fix the game. We all win.

They don't fix the game. We all lose.

Not happy that it's taking so long? Too bad. Find something else to do. Constant whining is not going to make it happen any faster.

This is my favorite post ever on this forum. The bottom line truth of the matter. Although I do like the Friday updates and wish EVERY FRIDAY they at least say something about the game or sequel. Complaining just makes it worse, we must be patient. :grin:

[furbs]

This is my favorite post ever on this forum. The bottom line truth of the matter. Although I do like the Friday updates and wish EVERY FRIDAY they at least say something about the game or sequel. Complaining just makes it worse, we must be patient. :grin:

Very true, im sure a large amount of people who brought COD will be very patient when BOM is released and wait till they see the reviews first before spending any money.

[kristorf]

Very true, im sure a large amount of people who brought COD will be very patient when BOM is released and wait till they see the reviews first before spending any money.


Seriously???

You won't need to read any reviews to know how well the game works. I'll let you figure out why on your own.

Of course we will read reviews before shelling out, once bitten twice shy springs to mind

[furbs]

Seriously???

You won't need to read any reviews to know how well the game works. I'll let you figure out why on your own.


So your that sure that the developers wont say "The last patch that fixes everything for COD is released with BOM"?

Il wager they do, name your price.

[David Hayward]

So your that sure that the developers wont say "The last patch that fixes everything for COD is released with BOM"?

Il wager you they do, name your price.

I have no doubt that you will find new features in BoM that you think should have been included in CoD.

[furbs]

I have no doubt that you will find new features in BoM that you think should have been included in CoD.

Not quite what i said is it.

So fancy a bet?

Im saying the developers will say "FIXES for COD will come with the release of BOM"

Hence i will not be buying until i see some reviews first.

[David Hayward]

Not quite what i said is it.


I know it's not what you said, but it's what you're going to do. They'll release the game and you'll start complaining about the new features that were not included in CoD. That way you can't possibly lose the bet.

[Force10]

I know it's not what you said, but it's what you're going to do. They'll release the game and you'll start complaining about the new features that were not included in CoD. That way you can't possibly lose the bet.

I'm concerned that once(if) they get the core "engine" smoothed out, they will then move full bore on getting BOM out the door. Meaning, all the bugs in COD(see bugtracker) will be left unresolved as the push will be BOM. All the warts in COD might be left as they are(radio commands, etc.). I hope this isn't the case, but I think it's a possibility.

[Fearless_1]

Here is a perfect example of why the whiners are and never will be happy..

Would you be going out of your way to say/do anything in this forum?

It is their forum. I find it hilarious that you keep meantioning all the support we are getting when we haven't seen anything but a beta in about a year.

Quit calling other people's opinions silly because the only thing sillier is the amount of time you spent defending against any criticism that have been long over due for 1C.

I have my opinions because I believe in a fair deal, even when it has to do with flight simming. When I see a game in this condition that was released after taking half as long as Duke Nukem and advertised as "ready" then I believe that I have found an unfair deal. If you like to dilute your brain with open ended "commitments" like have received on these forums then I believe you have chosen to ignore the obvious and swallow the bait, hook, line, and sinker.

So what that I disagree with you? I never cared until you took it on yourself to get all gestapo up in here.

[furbs]

Agreed, hence i will be waiting for reviews first.

[David Hayward]

Agreed, hence i will be waiting for reviews first.

That's great! However, the rest of us will probably already have a pretty good idea if it's worth buying.

[bongodriver]

I think he said they have only released a beta patch in about a year and he's right about that. Can you make a list of all the other support we have had where we have seen results? After all talk is cheap.

appart from the first few patches before the re-write of the graphics engine thats true, the patch we have now is a beta of the new graphics engine, so not only were we getting patches but they actually decided to do a drastic re-write of the code to try and fix things for us......yep abismal support.....

[PotNoodles]

appart from the first few patches before the re-write of the graphics engine thats true, the patch we have now is a beta of the new graphics engine, so not only were we getting patches but they actually decided to do a drastic re-write of the code to try and fix things for us......yep abismal support.....

That's your opinion Bongo, but many of us feel the rewrite was only done for the sake of the next game. Do you really believe they would have done this rewrite if there wasn't a new game on the cards? COD is still in a bad state and we have actually paid to be beta testers for this and the next game lol. This should have been put out free if they wanted us to beta test it.

[bongodriver]

That's your opinion Bongo, but many of us feel the rewrite was only done for the sake of the next game. Do you really believe they would have done this rewrite if there wasn't a new game on the cards? COD is still in a bad state and we have actually paid to be beta testers lol.

That's your oppinion Noodles.

[Force10]

Not so much agree though is it, I just asked a question based on your statement, you whiners are slippery little blighters with all that word twisting and stuff.


Ok. Let me simplify it. Forget about features(IE: Dynamic weather, Su 26 etc.)

Being an offline player, these are examples of things that are keeping me from playing the game:

Radio commands
AI
Trees you can fly through (total immersion killer if you can land a damaged plane in a forest)

Lots more...but no need to rehash everything mentioned in the past.

The question is, will I have these things fixed in a patch without having to purchase BOM?

[David Hayward]

but many of us feel the rewrite was only done for the sake of the next game.

Of course it was done for the sake of the next game. The part that makes no sense at all is why you seem to think that is bad.

[bongodriver]

Being an offline player, these are examples of things that are keeping me from playing the game:

Radio commands



Maybe they will get some attention, I'm offline mainly too but to be honest never use radio, i find it an immersion killer having to press a button and scroll through a list of commands.

AI

turns out it wasn't so porked though, in the FMB provided it turns out the AI can be tweaked to behave quite well and there has been an improvement there in the last patch too.


Trees you can fly through (total immersion killer if you can land a damaged plane in a forest)



in the mean time can't you just land in the bits without trees just like you would if the trees 'were' collideable?


Lots more...but no need to rehash everything mentioned in the past.



sadly this never seems to apply to the endless whineing


The question is, will I have these things fixed in a patch without having to purchase BOM?


if you're genuinely asking me then I'd say yes.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Can you make a list of all the other support we have had where we have seen results?
No need to make a list in that it allready exists, i.e.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=26532

And from that list we have recived support in the form of 14 patches, i.e.

[PCH] (2012.05.05) v1.06.17582 BETA PATCH - May 05, 2012
[PCH] (2011.10.17) v1.05.15950 Release is now live! What to expect next
[PCH] (2011.10.06) v1.04.15866 core fix
[PCH] (2011.10.05) v1.04.15866 Beta
[PCH] (2011.09.06) v1.03.15527 Beta
[PCH] (2011.06.24) v1.02.14821 Release
[PCH] (2011.06.21) v1.01.14762 Beta
[PCH] (2011.05.18.) v1.01.14550 Retail
[PCH] (2011.05.04) v1.01.14413 Beta
[PCH] (2011.04.27) v1.00.14305 Beta
[PCH] (2011.04.15) v1.00.14072 Beta
[PCH] (2011.04.08.) v1.00.13954 Release
[PCH] (2011.04.07) v1.00.13915 Beta

After all talk is cheap.
Agreed

Which is why I allways make sure I can back up my claims (see above)

Now.. Let me guess.. You and yours are going to claim that 14 patches over a years time is NOT considered SUPPORT

[robtek]

What is this new game everybody is agog about here????

All information i could find points to a addon/update of CoD!

[PotNoodles]

No need to make a list in that it allready exists, i.e.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=26532

And from that list we have recived support in the form of 14 patches, i.e.

[PCH] (2012.05.05) v1.06.17582 BETA PATCH - May 05, 2012
[PCH] (2011.10.17) v1.05.15950 Release is now live! What to expect next
[PCH] (2011.10.06) v1.04.15866 core fix
[PCH] (2011.10.05) v1.04.15866 Beta
[PCH] (2011.09.06) v1.03.15527 Beta
[PCH] (2011.06.24) v1.02.14821 Release
[PCH] (2011.06.21) v1.01.14762 Beta
[PCH] (2011.05.18.) v1.01.14550 Retail
[PCH] (2011.05.04) v1.01.14413 Beta
[PCH] (2011.04.27) v1.00.14305 Beta
[PCH] (2011.04.15) v1.00.14072 Beta
[PCH] (2011.04.08.) v1.00.13954 Release
[PCH] (2011.04.07) v1.00.13915 Beta


Agreed

Which is why I allways make sure I can back up my claims (see above)

Now.. Let me guess.. You and yours are going to claim that 14 patches over a years time is NOT considered SUPPORT

So three patches released and the rest are beta's leading up to the patch releases. You call that excellent support? Because I don't when you consider most beta games are free to play until they correct the faults.

[furbs]

You'll know if they fixed all the significant problems. Of course, if you really think that no dynamic weather is a significant problem, you're going to be complaining no matter what they do.

If they have fixed the problems before release, of course i will buy it.
If they haven't then i will wait for the reviews first.

That's what i said in my first post.

[bongodriver]

So three patches released and the rest are beta's leading up to the patch releases. You call that excellent support? Because I don't when you consider most beta games are free to play until they correct the faults.

should they be releasing patches daily? and a beta patch does not make a game beta, even worst case the game is still an RC but not a beta.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So three patches released and the rest are beta's leading up to the patch releases.
Correct.. 14+ patches in the last year

You call that excellent support?
Excellent.. Maybe?

One thing for sure is that 14+ patches in a year does NOT qualify as NO SUPPORT which is what you and yours would have us belive

Because I don't when you consider most beta games are free to play until they correct the faults.
Shocking..

You and yours DONT consider 14+ patches in the last year as support..

Who would have ever guessed that?

[PotNoodles]

should they be releasing patches daily? and a beta patch does not make a game beta, even worst case the game is still an RC but not a beta.

No not daily, but I do wish they could release a patch that doesn't screw something else up everytime. I am getting where I am thinking what will go wrong this time when they release this patch. They then have to spend more time fixing the things they have broken and beta testing them, all this resulting in time and more time.

Btw - If it has a beta patch applied to it it's a beta in my eyes. An official patch is what makes it no longer a beta. At present it's back in beta stage because it's found to have faults still.

[CaptainDoggles]

Correct.. 14+ patches in the last year

No, the beta patches aren't separate patches. They're just early versions of the actual patches.

Stop being disingenuous.

[Mysticpuma]

Originally I posted on page 1......that is still the question ;)

Currently I see a lot of in-fighting but this makes me wonder whether the lack of information really has made the community turn on itself?

Even a monthly update like the one I linked to a RoF would surely give users a chance to understand what to expect and what to look forward to?

Currently it seems that in-fighting occurs because no-one is sure just what is happening or going to happen, other than speculation?

If the speculation was changed to actual facts by the 1C team...maybe the clarity of position and direction would help those on either side of the fence to at-least sit on it together?

MP

[furbs]

They have no choice. They can't sell BoM until CoD is fixed. That seems pretty obvious.

Yep again, which is also why i expect they will say "BOM fixes COD"

So to recap...

I dont expect COD to be fixed until BOM is released, if it is then i will buy BOM, if it isn't, then i will wait for a review first.

Which is what ive been saying all along.

[Force10]

14 patches that haven't really fixed much. It's the "tree falls in the forest" deal. If 14 patches are released, but they don't really fix the glaring problems, is that considered excellent support?

[Fearless_1]

Correct.. 14+ patches in the last year


Excellent.. Maybe?

One thing for sure is that 14+ patches in a year does NOT qualify as NO SUPPORT which is what you and yours would have us belive


Shocking..

You and yours DONT consider 14+ patches in the last year as support..

Who would have ever guessed that?

I think I understand now. You just started simming and have no precedent to what a well written, well supported game is. I sure hope 1C has given you knee pads for all the "support" you keep giving them.

3 patches..... animations on control surfaces are fowled up, when AI commands were found to have problems they were deleted not fixed, the graphics rewrite was not to tweak existing settings to make them completely optimized, the rewrite was to make this game anything except BARELY PLAYABLE!

Look, here's all I hear when I come to this board:

TWO WEEKS!

These guys have more in common with Fighter Ops then they do with Il-2!

This game should have been released before it was rewritten, or at least finished before retail.

I've been flying around 1940's Europe since 1994 and I have never seen standards sink to the level it has been for the last 5 years. I know the genera is small, but this behavior makes neither economic, nor gaming sense!

[David Hayward]

Yep again, which is also why i expect they will say "BOM fixes COD"


Why? They makes absolutely no sense. They need us to have a working CoD BEFORE they can sell BoM. How is that not obvious to you?

[bongodriver]

Did I say no real work went into them? Did I say that they were the same patches?

Please quote where I did. Otherwise, stop misrepresenting what I say.

right here...

No, the beta patches aren't separate patches. They're just early versions of the actual patches.

Stop being disingenuous.

if they aren't separate patches but just early versions of the actual patches then you are saying they are the same patches...you know like they made a beta and a couple of weeks later gave it a new version number and called it a release.
I'm not misrepresenting anything, you are desparately trying to tell us the devs have done 'nothing' in the way of trying to fix this yet here we are reminding you that on 14 separate occasions a different patch be it a beta or release that had to be coded each time.

[furbs]

Why? They makes absolutely no sense. They need us to have a working CoD BEFORE they can sell BoM. How is that not obvious to you?

I agree its obvious, but will it happen? they released COD didn't they?
We will see wont we.

[Codex]

For clarification purposes ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

[Frequent_Flyer]

The most profound thing anyone can accomplish is to change the way another indivual thinks. For most here, I beleive that would be with results. I Could care less if the developers are working on it, hell they have been working on it for 16 months. What would your assumption be based upon and when was it demonstrated to you that this sim will be " fixed" ?

[catito14]

Well, there is an exclusive thread with questions for Luthier, i think his answers will clarifies the things. I hope they have time for it ... considering that Oleg answered in a thread more than 120 questions in his times, i think they can with a couple ...

[JG52Uther]

Thread cleaned up. If your post is gone, sorry about that, but it was either argumentative, insulting, condescending, replying to a post quoting same, O/T to the original post, etc.
A couple of you are on a slippery slope.
Please don't ruin this thread with your personal arguments.

[von Brühl]

To be honest, who cares if they communicate with us if they would have delivered a good game, with no bugs? You think the fans of Angry Birds care how much Roxio communicates with them? That's a relatively problem free release.

[Mysticpuma]

Thread cleaned up. If your post is gone, sorry about that, but it was either argumentative, insulting, condescending, replying to a post quoting same, O/T to the original post, etc.
A couple of you are on a slippery slope.
Please don't ruin this thread with your personal arguments.

Appreciate the clean-up. It seemed that my initial post, although starting off with constructive and objective replies , steadily went the way of most.

I appreciate the unlocking of the thread and allowing those with a point about my original post, a chance to have there say.

Please, if you have something to say about this post....post it here, if you wish to converse about he said/she said....please make your own thread.

Thanks Uther, cheers, MP

[David Hayward]

More communication from the dev team seems pointless to me right now. I want them working on the game. I don't need them holding my hand while I wait.

[Madfish]

I have read many threads and although there are varying points of view, it seems that the main frustration is that veterans and new players alike just feel like they are not being listened to?

Many threads ask "Dear Luthier/Black6/1C, can you fix this? Why doesn't this work? I have found a bug? Online gaming? Multiplayer netcode? Why wont you answer this question? Why is the patch not here? Why have you not added this/that/the other?".....etc,etc.

Now as far as I am aware the complete opposite is evident from the RoF forums/community because they appear to have a group of developer's that interact with there community. Jason has been and is mentioned many times as someone the RoF community feel is taking onboard their suggestions and comments. It doesn't matter (well it does but go with me here) that things aren't fixed instantly, it does matter though that opinions, thoughts and suggestions appear to be given due consideration and there is feedback and appreciation of the customer enthusiasm and input.

I honestly believe that there would be considerably less irritation and hostility if the customers felt as though what they were saying was having an effect on the direction of bug-fixes and development.

I think in the real world (I know it's been over a year!) we can appreciate that software is never going to be released perfect. We also can appreciate that (from posts on here) that the release was 'forced' and this has ultimately have caused the community of CloD players to be dealt a rough hand.

I also think that most of us who have lived and breathed the original IL2 can see that CloD was 'born' prematurely as the pedigree that it comes from is second to none in the Flight Sim community (WW2 Combat of-course). For this reason I think so-many have been disappointed (I appreciate not all) as it was seen as the next step up in Graphics and realism for the WW2 Combat community. As it currently stands for many players (I appreciate again not all) the actual playability is really hard to accept as it takes so-many users 'fixes', tweaks, work-arounds to try and get a stable game that ultimately frustration sets in.

This is the point when they reach out to the people who made and sold the software to help them, to fix the broken parts, to make it as good as the original....to make it fun again!

This is also the point where it appears that the lack of feedback appears to be a two-finger salute at those who dare to poke their heads above the trenches and stare into the face of the developer's and ask a question about what went wrong.

Personally, I honestly do appreciate that a man/woman can't sit at a PC all-day answering inane questions that really don't make a difference to the development. I also appreciate that they can't sit there all-day and answer incredibly relevant questions to the development. I do though feel, like others, that the lack of communication feeds the animosity and anger because it is this that leads those who invested money to feel that the Developer's don't really care what problems there are....it's tough on us, what did we really hope to expect?

These are the reasons that the Friday updates (actually ANY updates) are trawled over in fine detail as we users hope to find a nugget of Gold amongst news of the sequel. The 'nugget of Gold' is the news that something will be fixed and that something is a direct result of customer input. The input and feedback of those who care about this software, it's sales, it's development, it's future!

The reason we are here is we have an interest, a passion, a hobby and that is why is galls us so much when suggestions to improve the experience we get from the software are just ignored.

Take bug-tracker for instance.

It would be great to hear feedback from the developers that they are working on/looking at the top-ten issues listed in bug-tracker. These are the TOP TEN issues for users and the top ten that surely the Developer's should consider first? These are the issues that users....the lifeblood of the Sim are crying out for to be fixed. If they weren't in the top 10 most popular issues, then there would be less importance on addressing them?

But those are the issues that lead the priority of the users in the community and these are the ones that really do require someone who is actually working in the development of the CloD software (not the sequel) to take time to come to the community and let us know what is actually being done and a 'realistic' timescale of when it could be fixed?

It really is disingenuous for a weekly update to say "we have nearly fixed this, we hope to release it soon" when they are actually dealing with the issues.

Could we not have something like this weekly or even every two-weeks?:

http://riseofflight.com/Blogs/

Trust me when I say that this is not a RoF thread, this is a thread I hope can stir a little passion in the Development team to understand that I (I hope we) realise it's difficult, realise there has been issues but that we are hear and waiting to support you as you battle through them.

Sitting in a room somewhere and saying if we don't answer any questions the baying crowd will eventually go away...well in a way, is probably true. But those who do go away most likely wont come back when you really do have something to say!

Please 1C, consider having worthwhile updates that tell us how development is going. I/(we?) really want to support you but throwing breadcumbs of information out at such sporadic intervals ultimately gives the impression that you really aren't interested in the community who support and follow you, and seriously that's' really not going to endear you to any of the older or newer customer's for CloD.

This took me 15-minutes to write....if you take into consideration how much I typed, just 50% of that as information of what you are doing once-per-week, would be a true inspiration to those who are steadily giving up hope of ever seeing CloD rise to the great heights the 1946 did.....but we still hang on in hope!

I hope I have written this as neither a fanboy or a whiner......just as an honest opinion that if we had more communication, it really would go a long way to make us believe we aren't being ignored and hung out to dry?

Cheers, MP

Wow nice textwall. It appears you are a guy who loves to type and read stuff on forums... :rolleyes: Personally I rather play the game. Writing text walls isn't going to fix ANYthing. And not everyone reads the forums anyways.

A bit of communication is fine - but what most people are expecting is just silly. It won't affect the game, it won't affect the bad advertising and crappy reviews - all it does is waste time.

If the developers need the fans to tell them how to make a game then it's dead anyways. Rthe weekly or bi-weekly news and let them develop.

[Mysticpuma]

"Wow nice textwall. It appears you are a guy who loves to type and read stuff on forums... Personally I rather play the game."

Dangle the worm, I'm not biting. Thanks Uther for unlocking the thread. It appears some people can't help themselves! :rolleyes:

"More communication from the dev team seems pointless to me right now. I want them working on the game. I don't need them holding my hand while I wait."

Thanks David, a fair point. Cheers, MP

[David Hayward]

MOD EDIT: I was generous before, and just cleaned the thread.I spent a long time doing it. That was before though.

If you can't take a hint to stay on topic and not just post to try and bait an argument then I will have to be a bit more active. Have an adult discussion or go elsewhere.
_____________

[kristorf]

It's going already.........

[theOden]

Kristorf, maybe you should update your ignore list :)

[kristorf]

Kristorf, maybe you should update your ignore list :)

Gonna be one hell of a long list and some very short threads though innit??? :rolleyes:

[theOden]

hahaha very true but it all become so much more pleasant.

[Madfish]

Wow nice textwall. It appears you are a guy who loves to type and read stuff on forums... Personally I rather play the game. Writing text walls isn't going to fix ANYthing. And not everyone reads the forums anyways.

A bit of communication is fine - but what most people are expecting is just silly. It won't affect the game, it won't affect the bad advertising and crappy reviews - all it does is waste time.

If the developers need the fans to tell them how to make a game then it's dead anyways. Read the weekly or bi-weekly news and let them develop.

Not everyone thinks a game is about forum messages, blog posts or facebook newsfeed updates. Their weekly and bi-weekly updates are fine to me at least.

They don't need, shouldn't and probably don't even want to read through all that "valuable" content on the forums. It's unstructured, unprofessional and in most cases highly redundant and plain useless. It's not beneficial to the development process at all.

And now you should ask yourself what's more important. Textwalls and forum chitty chat or the devs actually just concentrating on development? They're not some mega corporation that can afford useless PR guys.
They aren't charging for scarfs, planes or windshield wipers. They probably just spend the money the get to feed themselves and struggeling to keep the company afloat.

But "It appears some people can't help themselves!" and keep trolling the developers with textwalls instead of realizing that this isn't what makes or breaks the game.



The only point I'd see as beneficial is if they'd follow the bugtracker some people set up. But who knows, maybe they already are and just don't take the time to post there... :)

[TonyD]

...The only point I'd see as beneficial is if they'd follow the bugtracker some people set up. But who knows, maybe they already are and just don't take the time to post there... :)

I think that they are judging by some of the included fixes in the latest patch. The ‘blue lines’ issue peculiar to my GPU was listed in the bug-tracker, it was improved in the previous beta, and solved in the latest one.

One of the major difficulties with B6’s ‘job’ is in my opinion the language barrier. I occasionally read the sukhoi.ru forums with the aid of Google Translate and it’s not easy to understand what some are saying due to slang/misspelling/colloquialisms. How often do we see two native English speakers get embroiled in an argument due to an unintentional implication in a response? Having to correspond with forum users using a translation service must be a nightmare when everything you state will be disseminated and perhaps misinterpreted. I am not surprised that he doesn’t post here very often.

And as for luthier, I assume that he's too busy with the next patch :)

[BH_woodstock]

lack of communication...been saying this for almost a year now.
you guys say its just another un needed program running but i will tell you that you are wrong.This is what hyperlobby gave us...COMMUNICATION.

we were able to talk in live time and exchange ideas and test.even Oleg himself used it.I think its time the devs use it too... OR make something simular available in CloD client game server room. IT iS NEEDED for THIS sim in particular.This community and flight sim NEED live chat.We would be so much farther than this right now in this sim if we had it.Im not noking down forums it is needed as well but slow and things really get lost in translation. were as a community that was able to communicate on the fly things got done a lot quicker and better quality.

Devs. you guys should have a server set up to get direct feedback from the community instead of doing it all on your own on these super pc's. that you are running CloD in.And actually fly with us to get direct information.
Oleg did it many many times and we were homored to fly with him.He got so much respect that way because he showed us that he was working on things and asked us questions and it GOT done.

the better we can ALL communicate the faster we can proceed in getting Dover what it was ment to be.

im not saying we HAVE to use Hyperlobby.Im just saying it helped and was a big reason why il2 is was it is.

[BH_woodstock]

Devs. you guys should have a server set up to get direct feedback from the community instead of doing it all on your own on these super pc's. that you are running CloD in.And actually fly with us to get direct information.
Oleg did it many many times and we were honored to fly with him.He got so much respect that way because he showed us that he was working on things and asked us questions and it GOT done.

the better we can ALL communicate the faster we can proceed in getting Dover what it was ment to be.

i feel this is very important so i am saying it twice.

[Mysticpuma]

I think as it stands today (we all had hoped for a Friday update), we have a perfect example of lack of communication leading to frustration.

A few words about the development, what is happening.....just anything I am sure would help to stop the next few-days of repetitive goading of the fan-boys and detractors. Well it may not stop it, but at-least it wouldn't do any harm?

It really is disappointing that it appears no thought or interest is given to the community that really wants this to succeed?

MP

[SiThSpAwN]

We got an update from B6 today...

[rpgielow]

The reality is They know that We will be here waiting for the fixes as long as it takes because We love IL2 and there are no options about WW2 real simulators.

About Friday's update, You are right !!! A few screenshots and some lines of text would be fine.

[Codex]

We got an update from B6 today...

where?

Edit: Don't worry I found it :rolleyes:

[jermin]

The answer should be very simple. They don't have the ability to fix this game. If a game can not be fixed 1 year after its release, it will never get fixed. Oleg once stated that he didn't think the COD was not a sinking ship. I totally agreed with him. It was not sinking. It was already sunk.

[robtek]

Oh ye of little faith!

[Codex]

Oh ye of little faith!

It's not about faith rob, it about the $$$$

We live in a world where loyalty has no meaning anymore.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I would gladly buy each copy of CoD back from each un-satisfied member of this forum..

If there as a way to guarantee that they could no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

[zxwings]

I would gladly buy each copy of CoD back from each un-satisfied member of this forum..

If there as a way to guarantee that they could no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD
I like what you said. :mrgreen:

[Codex]

Can't guarantee that ACE but I'm sure I've got some rose-coloured glasses lying around ;)

[PotNoodles]

I would gladly buy each copy of CoD back from each un-satisfied member of this forum..

If there as a way to guarantee that they could no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

Buy mine full price and i'll stay away.

[fox3]

I would gladly buy each copy of CoD back from each un-satisfied member of this forum..

If there as a way to guarantee that they could no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

Buy mine full price and i'll stay away.

[Icarus1]

I would gladly buy each copy of CoD back from each un-satisfied member of this forum..

If there as a way to guarantee that they could no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

Put your money where your mouth is! Big talker no action as usual.

[CaptainDoggles]

Buy mine full price and I'll stay away too.

[catito14]

I don´t want to be paranoid, and i really want to believe in the game. But, there are a couple of things that make me noise ... i.e.: the sukhoi.ru web is down from several days ago, they "move" right now without a word about the process of the game or even the readme (2 weeks after the patch released), B6 has completely filled his PM box (i think this is because he received a LOT of PM which he did not read and much less answered), B6 said that Luthier have a lot of work AND PROBLEMS ....
I don´t know what these things mean, but i have a bad feeling about this.

Regards.

p.s.: All this paranoia and ghost will dissapear if B6 or Luthier himself come here and give us an statement about how the things are going on.

[Kaiser]

B6 said that Luthier have a lot of work AND PROBLEMS ....


on "Sukhoi" there is information that the main resources are provided to BoM....

[sorak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDG-SLnCYuo&feature=related

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Buy mine full price and i'll stay away.
Will do!

As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Buy mine full price and i'll stay away.
Will do!

As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Buy mine full price and I'll stay away too.
Will do!

As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Put your money where your mouth is!
Will do!

As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

[furbs]

Il buy both if ACE stays away!


Joking.

I dont want anyone to leave(even A**), even if some get on my bits.
Why would you want someone to leave and never post again, even if you disagree with them?

[andrea78]

The answer should be very simple. They don't have the ability to fix this game. If a game can not be fixed 1 year after its release, it will never get fixed.

+1

[bongodriver]

How long 'should' a game take to fix?

[kendo65]

Will do!

As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

How about pay them half the money now, and then the other half in a year (or maybe 2 years) if they stick to their side of the deal?

[Icarus1]

Will do!

As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD
I'll take a lifetime ban from the moderator when your cheque arrives. I know you are not good on your word and are all talk so its pointless.

[Icarus1]

How long 'should' a game take to fix?

Not as long as this game. Thats for sure.

[bongodriver]

Not as long as this game. Thats for sure.

Roughly...how long?

[Icarus1]

Roughly...how long?

This should have been fixed by now. Roughly speaking.

[bongodriver]

This should have been fixed by now. Roughly speaking.


So roughly 14 months?

[Icarus1]

So roughly 14 months?

This should have been fixed by now yes.

[bongodriver]

This should have been fixed by now yes.

Roughly...give or take a month?

[Icarus1]

Roughly...give or take a month? Yes if its fixed in a month great. But good luck with that.

[bongodriver]

Yes if its fixed in a month great. But good luck with that.

But is it 'good luck with that'? I sense just another month of relentless dev bashing.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

How about pay them half the money now, and then the other half in a year (or maybe 2 years) if they stick to their side of the deal?
No thanks, because I am pretty sure they would not abide by it, and thus I would be out HALF, but if you do come up with a way to guarantee that they will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD, let me know!

I'll take a lifetime ban from the moderator when your cheque arrives.
That statement does not hold much water in light of the fact that the lifetime ban for multi handle poll voting didn't work

I know you are not good on your word and are all talk so its pointless.
That statement does not hold much water either in that you provided no proof of me being bad on my word, that is to say you because you say it does not make it ture! Thus the only people that would fall for that lie are the ones that want to belive it without any proof of it.

But I digress

My offer still stands.. As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD! S!

[Icarus1]

No thanks, because I am pretty sure they would not abide by it, and thus I would be out HALF, but if you do come up with a way to guarantee that they will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD, let me know!


That statement does not hold much water in light of the fact that the last lifetime ban for multi handle pole voting didn't work


That statement does not hold much water either in that you provided no proof of me being bad on my word, that is to say you because you say it does not make it ture! Thus the only people that would fall for that lie are the ones that want to belive it without any proof of it.

But I digress

My offer still stands.. As soon as you come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD! S!

First, you are wrong, I did not ever get a lifetime ban. I don't pole vote???? I am not sure how to make it ture???? Again a lifetime ban will do it, but you must now weasel out of your false promise. All talk and not action. Your arrogance is astounding for someone who can't spell..

[bongodriver]

I love how criticizing spelling is 'always' the last resort in a lost argument.

[Icarus1]

But is it 'good luck with that'? I sense just another month of relentless dev bashing.

No dev bashing, but their record so far does not look promising that they will fix it soon.

[Icarus1]

I love how criticizing spelling is 'always' the last resort in a lost argument.

I love how you fanbois here have to argue everyone down who dares speak the truth about problems with this software. It is very juvenile stuff. I'm out of here and leave you and A$$ of A$$es to argue with someone else.

[bongodriver]

Ah followed by the classics 'fanbois', 'ass of asses', real playground stuff.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I love how criticizing spelling is 'always' the last resort in a lost argument.
So true, just not sure what spelling error he was making reference too? pole vs. what I wrote, poll?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

First, you are wrong, I did not ever get a lifetime ban.
You will have to forgive me for not taking you word on this, in light of the fact that you have no problem making up unfouded lies about me, what would stop you from lieing about anything?

I don't pole vote???? I am not sure how to make it ture????
Read what I wrote again and I think you will note that I wrote 'poll' not 'pole'

Again a lifetime ban will do it,
No a lifetime ban will not guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD, but my offer still stands, if you can come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD, let me know.

but you must now weasel out of your false promise.
No weasel out on my part!

The only thing that keeps me from buying your game from you is the fact that no one has come up with a way to guaranteed that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

All talk and not action.
Ill take action as soon as come up with a way to guaranteed that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD

Your arrogance is astounding for someone who can't spell..
Well because my arrogance is not based on my spelling as much as it is based on my good looks!

[Wolf_Rider]

I love how criticizing spelling is 'always' the last resort in a lost argument.





and name calling just indicates they have no argument to stand on.....

[catito14]

on "Sukhoi" there is information that the main resources are provided to BoM....

How is that?? I can´t enter in "sukhoi" to check that info, could you talk a little more about that info please?
Thanks

[Fearless_1]

Damn, I can't believe they still let you post here. You act like you own the place and you're a real disturbance to people who come to this board due to liking sims. Will you just get off it already? There's a difference between what someone like you can get away with on a postboard and what you'd limp away with in person.

You will have to forgive me for not taking you word on this, in light of the fact that you have no problem making up unfouded lies about me, what would stop you from lieing about anything?


Read what I wrote again and I think you will note that I wrote 'poll' not 'pole'


No a lifetime ban will not guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD, but my offer still stands, if you can come up with a way to guarantee that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD, let me know.


No weasel out on my part!

The only thing that keeps me from buying your game from you is the fact that no one has come up with a way to guaranteed that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD


Ill take action as soon as come up with a way to guaranteed that you will no longer post in this or any other forum wrt CoD


Well because my arrogance is not based on my spelling as much as it is based on my good looks!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Damn, I can't believe they still let you post here. You act like you own the place and you're a real disturbance to people who come to this board due to liking sims. Will you just get off it already? There's a difference between what someone like you can get away with on a postboard and what you'd limp away with in person.
Are you the same Fearless_1 that I shot down 5 times in a row the other night? If so, you attacking me here will not even the score!