calm down

[FS~looksharp]

as the above title says... calm down...

only a short sighted fool would not see that even in its presant state this sim is and will continue to be the best flight sim on the market...

lets just give the devs all the time they need to make this sim into what we all know its capable of being....

i certainly understand the distress of my fellow pilots, im also chomping at the bit to have the next patch out.... god knows how many times ive chased ghost bombers about in ATAGs server.

as its a forum ive obviously left myself open here for nasty remarks by posting this, but so wot... lets just be a little more laid back

:-)

[Volksieg]

I think 10 years ago I would have agreed with you.... but in the current economic climate it is a matter of sink or swim and, let's face it, at this rate it is glug glug glug all the way.

I am getting to the stage where I honestly think they should just release the SDK, forget any silly ideas about sequels and let the modding community have free reign! Let's not forget that IL2 1946, for all its initial brilliance, is only really as loved as it is, to this day, due to the great work of Team Daidalos and the modders behind UP and HSFX!

I don't mean any offence to B6 who is our main representative from the dev team on this forum.... (I've been there, B6! Nothing worse than being the public face of a company having, justifiably furious, customers screaming in your face all day.)... but I have lost ALL faith in the developers. I understand that software development is a difficult profession and I get that unforeseen circumstances can jump up at any moment.... but the nature and tone of updates just come across as having the same credibility as a Nigerian Email scam.

If they prove me wrong then great! I want to be proven wrong! I really do! I just have zero belief that I will be, unfortunately, and I know I'm not alone in feeling that way.

People can have a go, defend the devs, get all shirty as much as they please but that doesn't help anything either way as, when all is said and done, the people complaining aren't just trolls... they are paying customers who just want to get their money's worth be they DX9 users (Spit! Spit! lol), medium range machine owners, minimum requirements chaps or monstrous megacomputer more money than sense obsessives. ;)

I do support your call for calm, mind... not because I see a glimmer of hope but, simply, because there are far more important things out there to get an aneurysm over.... wish I had a crystal ball, mind, as in hindsight I can think of a fair few things I would have spent my money on instead of this farce.

I've had fun on CloD and I am sure I shall have more fun if there is even just a small fix to make it as flyable as it was before the recent beta (Yeah.. I know! roll back! ....... and not be able to fly on the same servers as my squad!) but is that down to 1C? Not in the slightest! It is down to flying with some of the friendliest chaps on the interwebs.

Meanwhile, HSFX 6.0 is downloading.....

(Shout out to the "Mighty if 1C would let them be" JG26 and Osprey's bunch who, for some insane reason, resist the temptation that is the Luftwaffe and insist on flying those hellish Spitfires. lol)

[robtek]

I find this dreaming and the blind faith in the ability of anonymous modders very harebrained.

95% of the mods for the old IL2 were sub-standard, the level for il2-cod is a few steps higher.

The possibility of free mods for IL2-CoD in the level of MG quality is nil.

One should give MG the time to do it right, either they can fix it and most will be happy, or they drop the ball and the immense sum of about 70€ max. must be written of as false investment, which would be sad for all wwii-cfs fans.

[Volksieg]

The possibility of free mods for IL2-CoD in the level of MG quality is nil.



THANK THE GODS! :D My 'harebrained' future kinda involves mods that make the game work properly, not crash to desktop constantly, mention loads of features that vanish all of a sudden and stutter all over the place. ;)

Anyway.. who said anything about anonymous modders? I seem to remember mentioning at least three teams in the above post... one of which are now officially sanctioned as patchers and the other two are much beloved of the simming community. There are also countless games out there that were abandoned as an absolute mess and saved by the modding community. :)

[robtek]

THANK THE GODS! :D My 'harebrained' future kinda involves mods that make the game work properly, not crash to desktop constantly, mention loads of features that vanish all of a sudden and stutter all over the place. ;)

Anyway.. who said anything about anonymous modders? I seem to remember mentioning at least three teams in the above post... one of which are now officially sanctioned as patchers and the other two are much beloved of the simming community. There are also countless games out there that were abandoned as an absolute mess and saved by the modding community. :)

Do you really believe, that someone not intimately involved with the software, is able to fixe the core-code (crash to desktop), the net-code (stutters) and develope a less demanding weather-system when not even the developers are able to this easily?

Of course there a well known teams, working successful on a more than 10 year old software, but the CoD software is a) new, b) different and c) more complex.

Also the SDK release is already announced, but that still leaves the higher complexity level as a hurdle before something worthwile will come from this direction.

Be it as it may, but please dont anybody gives the modders the same attitude MG is getting here, or there wont be any. :D

[ems9]

Off-Topic:There are a lot of people with a lot of skills in modding, programming and such.
Making new planes, I bet people will be able to make them to the level of CoD.

Now the community's fixing the game engine, I don't see much hope in that, a game engine is an extremely complicated software, that requires multiple knowledge's.

I don't know how many people the MG team have working on the game engine, but I bet is a fairly big number, and a community couldn't even get a close number working on it!
Let's say the team have 50 programmers working full time, and it takes 6 months to fix, in a community it would take 6 years with a lot of effort!

I don't blame MG's team or anything. They are building a game engine from scratch (This sentence means a LOT LOT LOT of work!)
The only thing I don't understand is in this forum what is the 1c's main forum, the most active forum section is the IL-2 CoD, the Friday update last week in 24hours had 10,000 views, and this forum have all the time 50, 100, 150 members active, and there is a tone load of people that don't even check this forum but care about the game!
What means this game it's still be best seller and the best odd of money investment.
In this kinda of situation, when you have a project that is profitable you should put all of your resources on it! Making the time line smaller, so you sell faster, you sell more, you make your customers happy and you make more money!
More man power = more programmers = less time of development = more costs
But at the end more = profit!
I bet if all the entities related with this project had made the right decisions, the IL-2 name series would never be damaged, and they wouldn't lost tones of costumers, like they did and keep doing!
For us people active on the forum and community's around IL-2 we just hang, watch (some cry and whine xD) and we wait.
But the new people, the new costumers, the ones that didn't even bough the game, now they will not buy it, because it's not prestigious game name anymore, and all world have a bad feedback of it! Their luck it's there is noone on the competition on this game market, because If some business man from microsoft or other big company figure out there is still a big profitable game market. Then 1C and MG's have a big problem.

So if you want or not, if you want a damn good combat flight simulator, you gotta wait! There is nothing else besides IL-2 1946 and IL-2 CoD...for now.

Back on topic:
^^ People need to chill! If you watch the clock every second you will get mad! Don't watch the clock and let the time fly! Nothing you can do! =)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Robtek, the quality of mods varied a lo which I agree with fully. But some surpassed MG work by far, they did what MG said "not possible" etc. And the FM's of Russian planes were done by copy paste by MG! I did some extensive work with them until gave the data someone else to work with as my time was too limited. So there is bad quality on both sides of the fence ;) Anyways a good SDK, even a limited one would do a lot for CoD. Full SDK might be too far reaching to ask, but a limited one might be enough, for example ground elements etc. that require nothing complex...just some thoughts.

[Volksieg]

Do you really believe, that someone not intimately involved with the software, is able to fixe the core-code (crash to desktop), the net-code (stutters) and develope a less demanding weather-system when not even the developers are able to this easily?



Fair point considering I'm not even sure anyone intimately involved with the software can do the job either. :D

Sometimes, though, an outsider can pull off things that those on the inside imagine impossible....

Clutching at straws? Maybe. Wish I didn't have to, mind. :D

[Volksieg]

Anyhoo.. all that stuff being said...

In many ways I admire 1C Maddox Games' sheer gumption for carrying on (If they actually are carrying on! As I've said there is doubt out there.).

I have noticed, over the time I've been on this forum, that some have said "At least we have this! It may not work but it will one day!" and I understand that attitude.... sometimes, when things are working ok-ish, I even share that view but, sometimes, I think the best thing they could have done (It's way too late now) is made an announcement along the lines of:

"We regret to inform you that, due to unforeseen circumstances, we have had to cancel Storm of War"

People would have kicked and screamed, moaned and complained for a couple of weeks and then got back to flying 1946....

....Meanwhile, they could have beavered away behind the scenes with no pressure whatsoever and, who knows? A few weeks from now? Maybe even months ago? BANG!

There you go, loyal fans! The simulator to end all simulators!

People would have been singing hosannahs from the rooftops. :D

[ems9]

Anyhoo.. all that stuff being said...

In many ways I admire 1C Maddox Games' sheer gumption for carrying on (If they actually are carrying on! As I've said there is doubt out there.).

I have noticed, over the time I've been on this forum, that some have said "At least we have this! It may not work but it will one day!" and I understand that attitude.... sometimes, when things are working ok-ish, I even share that view but, sometimes, I think the best thing they could have done (It's way too late now) is made an announcement along the lines of:

"We regret to inform you that, due to unforeseen circumstances, we have had to cancel Storm of War"

People would have kicked and screamed, moaned and complained for a couple of weeks and then got back to flying 1946....

....Meanwhile, they could have beavered away behind the scenes with no pressure whatsoever and, who knows? A few weeks from now? Maybe even months ago? BANG!

There you go, loyal fans! The simulator to end all simulators!

People would have been singing hosannahs from the rooftops. :D

+1

[tintifaxl]

Do you really believe, that someone not intimately involved with the software, is able to fixe the core-code (crash to desktop), the net-code (stutters) and develope a less demanding weather-system when not even the developers are able to this easily?


But yes. Look at Falcon 4. Look at Vampire Bloodlines. Heck - look at IL2 4.11.1. That's what a dedicated community can do.

[JTDawg]

OK But when is the time to put up or shut up!!! after 15 months which is now Like i said in a post a month or more ago 2015 but after internal testing 2020, It's time for them to put on there big boy pants. My rose colored glasses ,they issued me aren't working anymore

[PotNoodles]

Delete

[PotNoodles]

To many mixed messages each week has caused frustration in people. One week they are releasing a patch in a few days time and the following week no they are not. One week a patch is just about finished and the following week it's not. Directx 9 has always been a part of this game so why even mention about releasing a patch if they intended to fix the direct x 9 first?

[David Hayward]

If they didn't give updates telling people that they were about to release the patch

Can you please post a link to that announcement? I missed it.

[ed-b]

That's it. Following week after week of poor excuses, it is very, very clear that we are no nearer to getting our faulty flight sims fixed than we were a year ago. Hat's off to the development team. They deserve significant credit for managing to produce an unending supply of plausible excuses that kept us al hanging on for the next release.... The issue is that 15 months on, we are all using a seriously flawed piece of software. Would I buy from this development team again ? Would anyone buy from this development team again ? The answer is a great big, wait for it..... NO.

Based on past performance and the plethora of excuses, we will be waiting until we have just had enough and sign off.

There is a lesson to be learned here. Never, ever buy the first release of any 1C sourced software. Simply wait, be patient and let others buy and try before you commit.

I find it incredible that the team invested anytime in any new developments until they had fixed their current products issues and satisfied their commitment to their current user base.

I'm putting this one down to experience. I won't be back and I won't be buying 1C software again. I'm only one individual and probably totally meaningless in the 1C scheme of things but, having wasted over 15 months of my time endlessly waiting for that next release, I have decided not to bother.

And just to put this completely behind me, I have just snapped the DVD and binned the box. I had thought about selling it on but who in their right mind would buy it? It's simply not worth any more time and hassle.

Good luck to everyone else on the forum. You clearly have far more patience that me.

[Dano]

And just to put this completely behind me, I have just snapped the DVD and binned the box. I had thought about selling it on but who in their right mind would buy it? It's simply not worth any more time and hassle.

You'll need to get your steam account perma-banned to put it completely behind you.

[David Hayward]

Bye ed-b!! We'll miss your not posting!

[PotNoodles]

Can you please post a link to that announcement? I missed it.

Oh give over please. A couple of weeks ago they announced they were testing a patch and all been well it would be released in a few days time - Remember Now? Then they talked about sitting down and fixing Directx 9 before they released it. Before this there was the 3 day fixes for the Clouds/Trees/Grass - Remember any of this? Must I really go on? Seems to me they change their minds from week to week, so like I said already - Giving out mixed messages.

[robtek]

In every developement, especially when entering new grounds, delays are to be expected, anybody getting excited about them, needs a reality check.

Delays because of unforeseen circumstances can't be neither planned nor avoided.

[furbs]

In every developement, especially when entering new grounds, delays are to be expected, anybody getting excited about them, needs a reality check.

Delays because of unforeseen circumstances can't be neither planned nor avoided.


So when they released the last beta/alpha patch and said 3 days for this and 3 days for that, they then decided at that very moment to start developing the DX9 beta? hence the delay?

what ever your smoking...

[Dano]

Delays because of unforeseen circumstances can't be neither planned nor avoided.

Making comments on how long stuff is expected to take can be avoided however.

[David Hayward]

Oh give over please. A couple of weeks ago they announced they were testing a patch and all been well it would be released in a few days..Remember that one do you?

Do you see the qualifier? Apparently all was not well.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the constant complaining on this forum is helping to speed up the programming process?

[furbs]

Do you see the qualifier? Apparently all was not well.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the constant complaining on this forum is helping to speed up the programming process?

Nobody including you know.

[David Hayward]

Nobody including you know.

Estimate.

[bongodriver]

Oh give over please. A couple of weeks ago they announced they were testing a patch and all been well it would be released in a few days time - Remember Now? Then they talked about sitting down and fixing Directx 9 before they released it. Before this there was the 3 day fixes for the Clouds/Trees/Grass - Remember any of this? Must I really go on? Seems to me they change their minds from week to week.

We all remember it but none of it was an announcement of a specific release date as you claim...

Oh give over please. A couple of weeks ago they announced they were testing a patch and all been well it would be released in a few days time - Remember Now? Then they talked about sitting down and fixing Directx 9 before they released it. Before this there was the 3 day fixes for the Clouds/Trees/Grass - Remember any of this? Must I really go on? Seems to me they change their minds from week to week, so like I said giving out mixed messages.

all it means is that things didn't go as well as thet liked and it's going to take yet more time........does nobody really see it's the constant baying for blood that has pushed the devs down the road of 'absolute perfection' before release....

Story so far:

COD released.....'some' problems for 'some' users, 'some' users complain like their life is over.

Patches released, doesn't work for 'some' users, 'some' users complain like their life is over.

Devs go a bit quiet while working on more fixes, 'some' users complain about lack of updates like their life is over.

Devs begin regular if a little vague communication for updates, 'some' users complain like their life is over.

Devs announce that there 'is' a future for the series in their plans with a sequel, 'some' people complain that they will never buy it because their life is over.

Devs decide screenies of the sequel obviously upset a few people so drop them, 'some' people complain that theres obviously no future for the series because they obviously abandoned it and their life is over.

devs resume the screenies because it upset 'some' people, 'some' people complain about the sequel because the lack of COD means their life is over.

The fix seems to be taking a long time so 'some' people complain like their life is about to end unless they get it.

Devs release an 'alpha' patch in order to apease them, they complain about it being an 'alpha' and their lives are over again.

Devs realise only 'perfection' will do so get on with the fix and tell us every week where they are at and what they are trying to achieve, 'some' people complain that they should be releasing a series of small regular 'alpha' patches like their lives depend on it and DX10 because DX9 users are a sub species and don't deserve attention.

[PotNoodles]

Do you see the qualifier? Apparently all was not well.



Why say there is going to be a patch in a few days times when they already knew all was not well? They already knew they had problems with Directx 9 when making these statements, so why make them in the first place if they intended fixing Directx 9 first? I just cannot wait to see the Trees/Grass/Clouds all fixed in the next patch, so looking forward to all them been fixed.

[furbs]

Estimate.


check my sig, Luthier knows.

[robtek]

nice summary, bongodriver

[PotNoodles]

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the constant complaining on this forum is helping to speed up the programming process?

Just out of curiosity, how much of this do you think would be getting fixed if people didn't complain any? If everyone was happy with it as it is?

[Tone71]

nice summary, bongodriver

Amidst all the arguing, and regardless of how I feel on the subject, I have to congratulate bongodriver on his summary too.

Edit: I think people would do well to just take some time out to read and re-read what he wrote on page 3.

[David Hayward]

Why say there is going to be a patch in a few days times when they already knew all was not well?

Sorry, but I don't recall them saying that there would be a patch in a few days. Do you have a link for that?

[Force10]

In every developement, especially when entering new grounds, delays are to be expected

I actually agree with you robtek. But the key word is "development". The development time was from 2004 to 2011, that's when you expect the delays. After you "release" a product, you should be past the development delays since you are now asking for money for something that is supposed to work.

[robtek]

They were forced to release a not completely developed software!

Weren't they?

Or does somebody really claim CoD was finished on release?

And then they had to redevelope great parts of the core program.

[Force10]

They were forced to release a not completely developed software!

Weren't they?

Or does somebody really claim CoD was finished on release?

And then they had to redevelope great parts of the core program.

And that's the customers fault? At the very least after swindling our money for something that doesn't work, they can be candid and honest. Instead, we get vague crap and misdirection instead of realistic info.

[ed-b]

Bye Dave !! Good luck with the vapourware ... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware ):(

[robtek]

And that's the customers fault? At the very least after swindling our money for something that doesn't work, they can be candid and honest. Instead, we get vague crap and misdirection instead of realistic info.

Oh, but it does work, not perfectly, not even very satisfactorily for quite a few, but it works good enough to have fun with it, if one wants it.

And swindling, doesn't work, vague crap, misdirecting? Thats pure badmouthing from your side.

They give us information, not the information you would like to get, but they confirm that they are working on the solution of CoD's problems.

It's not their fault that you are so unfaithful. :D

[Bungmiester]

Its not a matter of being unfaithful, this could be a really great flight sim unfortunataly it was mis managed and rushed out the door, frustration is what I would call it. Anyway im off down the pub.;)

[Feathered_IV]

Amidst all the arguing, and regardless of how I feel on the subject, I have to congratulate bongodriver on his summary too.

Edit: I think people would do well to just take some time out to read and re-read what he wrote on page 3.

Thanks, got him on the ignore list now. Don't know why I didn't do it ages ago.

[bongodriver]

Thanks, got him on the ignore list now. Don't know why I didn't do it ages ago.

yes, that is probably for the best for you to keep out of my way.

[carguy_]

I'm putting this one down to experience. I won't be back and I won't be buying 1C software again. I'm only one individual and probably totally meaningless in the 1C scheme of things but, having wasted over 15 months of my time endlessly waiting for that next release, I have decided not to bother.

Gee I hope so. This sim or its creators don`t deserve to be insulted by the likes of you.

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

I find this dreaming and the blind faith in the ability of anonymous modders very harebrained.

95% of the mods for the old IL2 were sub-standard, the level for il2-cod is a few steps higher.

The possibility of free mods for IL2-CoD in the level of MG quality is nil.

One should give MG the time to do it right, either they can fix it and most will be happy, or they drop the ball and the immense sum of about 70€ max. must be written of as false investment, which would be sad for all wwii-cfs fans.

I have to agree with robtek.

No disrespect towards modders but there is no way the modders are as good as the Maddox team:!:

The SDK argument holds little water for me.

[Force10]

Oh, but it does work, not perfectly, not even very satisfactorily for quite a few, but it works good enough to have fun with it, if one wants it.


Tell that to the folks that run XP and DX9. They got swindled, pure and simple.

[bongodriver]

Tell that to the folks that run XP and DX9. They got swindled, pure and simple.

Why have they? it seems to me the main hold up with the patch is to make sure the DX9 guys are looked after.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Why have they? it seems to me the main hold up with the patch is to make sure the DX9 guys are looked after.
Because that kind of logic get in the way of thier agenda! ;)

[furbs]

Why have they? it seems to me the main hold up with the patch is to make sure the DX9 guys are looked after.

They dont give a hoot about the COD DX9 guys, DX9 has been pony from the start, they are only making sure DX9 is ok for the MMO.

[bongodriver]

They dont give a hoot about the COD DX9 guys, DX9 has been pony from the start, they are only making sure DX9 is ok for the MMO.

Can you explain why exactly DX9 is essential for an MMO?

[furbs]

Can you explain why exactly DX9 is essential for an MMO?

I never said it was essential, im saying the DX9 fix is for the next release, the DX9 fix for COD is just a bi-product.
If they HAD to fix DX9 for COD because its on the box, it would have been done before release.

[bongodriver]

I never said it was essential, im saying the DX9 fix is for the next release, the DX9 fix for COD is just a bi-product.
If they HAD to fix DX9 for COD because its on the box, it would have been done before release.

So why do they need to bother fixing DX9 at all then?

[SlipBall]

So why do they need to bother fixing DX9 at all then?


They need it fixed for the MMO, and they want to attract as many new blood players worldwide as possible. For the new game they need to reach for large player base, IMHO

[bongodriver]

They need it fixed for the MMO, and they want to attract as many new blood players worldwide as possible. For the new game, IMHO

Well Furbs explained DX9 is 'not' essential for an MMO, he also said they didn't give enough of a crap about DX9 users to fix it, yet they are fixing it despite it not being essential which says they do give a crap about DX9 users.

Now people suggest they only give a crap about DX9 for sales of the sequel......so DX9 is essential for sales....so it makes sense to have it in COD too......they still wan't to sell it don't they.

[SlipBall]

You edited out my full post:confused:...they need/want to fix for Clod and new game

[bongodriver]

You edited out my full post:confused:...they need/want to fix for Clod and new game


I didn't edit anything, you must have made a change after I quoted you, I know that if you make a single edit of a post it doesn't always show up in the post that it was edited.

[SlipBall]

Sorry then buddy, I probably did

[major_setback]

I think the development team must be more frustrated than anyone else. It seems the whole thing is so complex that the smallest thing that is fixed means ten others get broken.
They can't just walk away from it after a disappointing Friday when they can't deliver, yet again.

[FS~Phat]

Tell that to the folks that run XP and DX9. They got swindled, pure and simple.

Just a reminder not to mis-inform people or you will get an infraction.
Last warning Force10 you have been deliberately and overtly negative and distorting the facts for some time. Enough is enough. If you dont like the current state of the game, go and have a little break and do something else constructive somewhere else before we are forced to give you one. The same goes for anyone else that isnt enjoying it.

Have a break, get a life, Im sure your family and friends dont like you in this mood so go do something you enjoy and come back and comment when the next patch is out. Everything that needed to be said about the last official patch and latest DX10 alpha patch has already been said.

DX9 and XP support still exists in the current latest official patch.

DX9 was removed from the DX10 alpha/beta patch to enable better trouble shooting of core graphics engine issues.. DX9 has it's own peculiarities so it is being addressed separately.

DX9 subject is now closed!

[Chivas]

With all due respect to some very good mods to the original IL-2, they would have had nothing to mod if it weren't for the developers hard work. I doubt there will be any SDK until the game engine is finished and working. I know I wouldn't waste coder resources on modeling an SDK for public use until the critical game engine code was working properly.

[r0bc]

lets just give the devs all the time they need to make this sim into what we all know its capable of being....
:-)

Give the devs all the time they need? Thats something 1C or Ubi's should have done.
15 months later, argh....who gives a shit.

[SiThSpAwN]

Just out of curiosity, how much of this do you think would be getting fixed if people didn't complain any? If everyone was happy with it as it is?

This is the best statement ever... what WOULD happen if everyone was happy with it is as it is LOL!!!

You win the internet!

[PotNoodles]

This is the best statement ever... what WOULD happen if everyone was happy with it is as it is LOL!!!

You win the internet!

I have seen much better ones coming from you LOL!!

You are by far the winner!

[David Hayward]

No, asking if they would fix it if it was working ok definitely "wins".

[SiThSpAwN]

I have seen much better ones coming from you LOL!!

You are by far the winner!

And a quality comeback as well... we are truly blessed today...

:rolleyes:

[hiro]

can't keep calm . . . not a chance not with this war thing going on . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9KLw8rMY7s




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNt_osAwe4

[PotNoodles]

No, asking if they would fix it if it was working ok definitely "wins".

Coming from you that means nothing at all to me. I have already seen that you miss the point when it comes to a lot of people's posts and opinions. Unfortunately, what you fail to realize is that if people didn't complain and listened to you then nothing would have been fixed at all.

[David Hayward]

Coming from you that means nothing at all to me. I have already seen that you miss the point when it comes to a lot of people's posts and opinions. Unfortunately, what you fail to realize is that if people didn't complain and listened to you then nothing would have been fixed at all.

Yeah, I'm sure they never would have tried to fix the game if it wasn't for the relentless daily whining from the likes of you. Congratulations!

[PotNoodles]

Yeah, I'm sure they never would have tried to fix the game if it wasn't for the relentless daily whining from the likes of you. Congratulations!

When all else fails lets use the "whining" word again LOL! Like anyone's bothered what you have to say about them. Anyways, looking at the amount of posts you've made i'd say you like coming here to look at all that relentless daily whining..I mean, nobody forces you to read it do they?.

[the Dutchman]

as the above title says... calm down...

I followed the development from the beginning,i was then in my early 40's,i'm turning 50! this year,i'm loosing interest......

[Chivas]

I followed the development from the beginning,i was then in my early 40's,i'm turning 50! this year,i'm loosing interest......

Loosing interest......h*ll I'm lossing life expectancy. ;)