Ammo against 109?

[Continu0]

Hey there!

I am currently looking for a effective ammo-settings against 109´s for the spit / Hurri. I once had a pretty good setting which blew up the 109s engine within (+/-)a second but I accidentally deletet it when i reinstalled the game...

So what are you using? And what is effective against bombers as well?

I appreciate any help, thank you!

Continu0

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

I go for tracers in 1st and 8th guns,so these are your furthest spaced guns,I then stick in armour piercing rounds in the 4th and 5th guns,so these being your closest guns to you.

In all the rest of the guns your 2nd,3rd,6th and 7th I've got the De Wilde incendiary rounds,works for me.:)

But experiment,experiment and experiment,also ensure your convergence is honed too,I have 136 vertical x 228 horizontal,but again you need to experiment to find out what works for you,dial in the enemy wingspan into the gunsight and go get 'em.

And finally in the words of Sailor Malan:

'Go in quickly-Punch hard-and get out!'

[pupo162]

preatty much wha JRB said

1 - 8 Tracer + icendiary ( 1 -1 ratio , red and yellow for the cool factor)
2 - 7 Icendiary.
3 - 6 Armour piercing.
4 - 5 Armour piercing.

convergence set at 100 meters our 150 meters. aim at the engine.

[trademe900]

By far most effective round against bombers is the dewilde but currently it produces unrealistic results where you can blow off the wing of a bomber with a split second burst. Load all guns with dewilde and it literally becomes a shower of wings... :confused:

[Blackdog_kt]

Maybe it's not the fact that the rounds are unrealistic, but that we can use as many of them as we like resulting in unrealistic loadouts.

What happens with DeWilde for the RAF can be reproduced with M-shells for the Luftwaffe. In reality, there wasn't unlimited supply of the "best" ammo types and pilots were forced to mix and match due to availability concerns.

Maybe a set of realism options down the road can help us with this. Having some preset historical loadouts as well as the ability to change them, but with some restrictions, would be the way to go. For example, restrictions could be to the tune of "x % of such and such rounds" or "X of such type of rounds in every 10 rounds total".

From what i've been seeing thus far, flying with the default loadouts doesn't produce results that seem unrealistic and this leads me to believe that the rounds themselves and the aircraft DMs are not bad at all. That's why i'm thinking that maybe it's us "gaming the game" that results in too many explosions :-P

[Continu0]

Maybe it's not the fact that the rounds are unrealistic, but that we can use as many of them as we like resulting in unrealistic loadouts.

What happens with DeWilde for the RAF can be reproduced with M-shells for the Luftwaffe. In reality, there wasn't unlimited supply of the "best" ammo types and pilots were forced to mix and match due to availability concerns.

Maybe a set of realism options down the road can help us with this. Having some preset historical loadouts as well as the ability to change them, but with some restrictions, would be the way to go. For example, restrictions could be to the tune of "x % of such and such rounds" or "X of such type of rounds in every 10 rounds total".

From what i've been seeing thus far, flying with the default loadouts doesn't produce results that seem unrealistic and this leads me to believe that the rounds themselves and the aircraft DMs are not bad at all. That's why i'm thinking that maybe it's us "gaming the game" that results in too many explosions :-P

But the DM is still buggy, or am i wrong? You can still fly over the whole channel with a broken cooling-sytem, which is not realistic in my opinion...

Thanks for your the help, I will try your suggestions!

[klem]

White Tracer | DeWilde | AP | AP |||||| AP | AP | DeWilde | White Tracer

Probably historical overkill on DeWilde as it was available and widely used but not in unlimited supply. I use it for hits confirmation although I think in the current patch that has been disabled. To be honest I couldn't be bothered to set up a belt with say 1 in 5 DreWilde but perhaps I should. Mind you I don't think the rest of my belts are historical.

Its been discussed before here:-
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/archive/index.php/t-28972.html
but no need to drag it all out again in this thread.

[steppie]

i have the mixed ammo belt in all my guns with
whites tracer
DeWilde
armour piercing rounds

and the last 30 round yellow tracers in stead of white.
I found this give me good results when come to both fighters and bombers as not all eight gun may not get on target and this belt mix it ensure when the gun get there target they have punch.

I have conversion 180 vertical x 180 horizontal

[Flanker35M]

S!

Better keep the ammo belt thing as it is now to prevent yet another whinefest and nitpicking of words by afficiandos and their funny sidekicks :) Historical or not but at least something that works in everyones' taste.

[macro]

1 AP every 6 a tracer
2 AP
3 dewild
4 dewild
5 dewild
6 dewild
7 AP
8 AP every 6 a tracer

both conv is 100, i like to fill the gunsight before opening fire, this lets you aim for the fuel tanks/cockpit/engine far more easily :grin:

[Osprey]

The default is the most historically accurate belting. 109's will start to fall down more when the FM's are corrected and the damage has knock on effects. No amount of extra DeWilde will help that.

[Blackdog_kt]

But the DM is still buggy, or am i wrong? You can still fly over the whole channel with a broken cooling-sytem, which is not realistic in my opinion...

Thanks for your the help, I will try your suggestions!

What you mention is an interesting point and it has been talked about various times. Naturally i got curious and some time ago i specifically tested this and i got an engine seizure.

The trick here is to know what to expect. A damaged radiator doesn't immediately shut down engine cooling, instead it leaks coolant fluid.

The amount of coolant evaporating from a damaged radiator would probably depend on the amount of damage to the radiator and how much you are pushing the engine (higher power settings result in higher coolant temperatures and pressures, which means more leaking for a given amount of damage).

Once your cooling system is emptied, it is then that engine damage occurs.

I tried this in a quick mission some time ago and it works pretty much like that. I was in a 110 and got a perforated radiator at the start of the fight. I kept flying normally for the duration of the fight, chased retreating Hurricanes all the way to Dover and then started on my way back to home base.

I had almost made it across the Channel, when the engine started overheating rapidly and seized.

If my home base was near Calais or any other airfield at the narrow point of the Channel, i would have probably made it just fine. However, i specifically decided to test the radiator DM once i got that kind of damage so i decided to fly the long way back to my designated field just to see what would happen.

I don't know how realistic it is or how complex is the modeling behind it, but overall it seems fine to me after doing the test and i like how the DM is not restricted to instantaneous effects. Radiators seem to be one of those progressive aspects of the DM that you can cautiously ignore for some time depending on the situation, but one which can have very important consequences if you don't plan for it.

In my example case, the prudent thing to do if i wasn't testing specifically with the aim of causing an engine failure, would have been to divert to an alternate field. If i had decided to set it down near Calais, i would have enough coolant for the trip plus a couple of go-arounds/missed approaches.

You could easily test it out yourself, without even having to engage enemy AI and hope they hit your radiators. Just push the engine over the limits for a while to cause some intentional radiator damage. The easiest way to do it would be to go maximum power with the radiators closed at slow speed (that is, a full power climb at a steep angle). The coolant temperature will go way up and the resulting increase in pressure will break your coolant system.

From that point on you can just fly around and see how long it takes for the engine to seize, probably using a bit of time compression too. Cheers ;)

[trademe900]

What you mention is an interesting point and it has been talked about various times. Naturally i got curious and some time ago i specifically tested this and i got an engine seizure.

The trick here is to know what to expect. A damaged radiator doesn't immediately shut down engine cooling, instead it leaks coolant fluid.

The amount of coolant evaporating from a damaged radiator would probably depend on the amount of damage to the radiator and how much you are pushing the engine (higher power settings result in higher coolant temperatures and pressures, which means more leaking for a given amount of damage).

Once your cooling system is emptied, it is then that engine damage occurs.

I tried this in a quick mission some time ago and it works pretty much like that. I was in a 110 and got a perforated radiator at the start of the fight. I kept flying normally for the duration of the fight, chased retreating Hurricanes all the way to Dover and then started on my way back to home base.

I had almost made it across the Channel, when the engine started overheating rapidly and seized.

If my home base was near Calais or any other airfield at the narrow point of the Channel, i would have probably made it just fine. However, i specifically decided to test the radiator DM once i got that kind of damage so i decided to fly the long way back to my designated field just to see what would happen.

I don't know how realistic it is or how complex is the modeling behind it, but overall it seems fine to me after doing the test and i like how the DM is not restricted to instantaneous effects. Radiators seem to be one of those progressive aspects of the DM that you can cautiously ignore for some time depending on the situation, but one which can have very important consequences if you don't plan for it.

In my example case, the prudent thing to do if i wasn't testing specifically with the aim of causing an engine failure, would have been to divert to an alternate field. If i had decided to set it down near Calais, i would have enough coolant for the trip plus a couple of go-arounds/missed approaches.

You could easily test it out yourself, without even having to engage enemy AI and hope they hit your radiators. Just push the engine over the limits for a while to cause some intentional radiator damage. The easiest way to do it would be to go maximum power with the radiators closed at slow speed (that is, a full power climb at a steep angle). The coolant temperature will go way up and the resulting increase in pressure will break your coolant system.

From that point on you can just fly around and see how long it takes for the engine to seize, probably using a bit of time compression too. Cheers ;)

Actually, it is unrealistic. If you've done much tinkering with engines then you'll know this is a glaring fault.

Water at high temperatures in a pressurized cooling system is going to spurt out with fury if there is damage induced by a bullet. If there is the a leak the system loses it's ability to pressurize the coolant and then no amount of water will help as without pressurization it will start to boil within seconds. Immediate overheating will ensue.

[Continu0]

Actually, it is unrealistic. If you've done much tinkering with engines then you'll know this is a glaring fault.

Water at high temperatures in a pressurized cooling system is going to spurt out with fury if there is even a pin hole sized leak, let alone damage induced by a bullet. If there is the slightest leak the system loses it's ability to pressurize the coolant and then no amount of water will help as without pressurization it will start to boil within seconds. Immediate overheating will ensue.

That would have been my argumentation as well, thank you;)

Another point to this is, that if you damage your engine with a closed radiator (let it overheat), it stopps withhin seconds...
This difference in damage (due to overheating vs. damage because of beeing shot) isn´t realistic in my eyes.

All that happens when i overheat, is the cooling system losing liquid because of overpressure...
I once read here on the forums that Spit & Hurri had overpressure valves right in front of the cockpit so the pilot would see the steam coming out of the valve and realise that temperatures are too high...

Question to Trademe900: Was the water in all the engines pressurized due to cooling?

[robtek]

It seems, as the coolant temperatures, at least for the DB601, had to be always well below the boiling point, that the cooling system was unpressured under normal conditions, but able to hold pressure until the overpressure valve released.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I'm with blackdog on this one.

Done plenty of country mile in shitty old cars with leaky radiators, stopping every thirty or fourty k's to top up the radiator water.

On the open road at speed it's mostly fine, just when you get to the city limits, slow speeds and thing's go to pot.

It all comes down to the type of location of the damage. Even unpressurised as long as the fluids circulating there is some cooling happening.

Cheers!


What you mention is an interesting point and it has been talked about various times. Naturally i got curious and some time ago i specifically tested this and i got an engine seizure.

The trick here is to know what to expect. A damaged radiator doesn't immediately shut down engine cooling, instead it leaks coolant fluid.

The amount of coolant evaporating from a damaged radiator would probably depend on the amount of damage to the radiator and how much you are pushing the engine (higher power settings result in higher coolant temperatures and pressures, which means more leaking for a given amount of damage).

Once your cooling system is emptied, it is then that engine damage occurs.

I tried this in a quick mission some time ago and it works pretty much like that. I was in a 110 and got a perforated radiator at the start of the fight. I kept flying normally for the duration of the fight, chased retreating Hurricanes all the way to Dover and then started on my way back to home base.

I had almost made it across the Channel, when the engine started overheating rapidly and seized.

If my home base was near Calais or any other airfield at the narrow point of the Channel, i would have probably made it just fine. However, i specifically decided to test the radiator DM once i got that kind of damage so i decided to fly the long way back to my designated field just to see what would happen.

I don't know how realistic it is or how complex is the modeling behind it, but overall it seems fine to me after doing the test and i like how the DM is not restricted to instantaneous effects. Radiators seem to be one of those progressive aspects of the DM that you can cautiously ignore for some time depending on the situation, but one which can have very important consequences if you don't plan for it.

In my example case, the prudent thing to do if i wasn't testing specifically with the aim of causing an engine failure, would have been to divert to an alternate field. If i had decided to set it down near Calais, i would have enough coolant for the trip plus a couple of go-arounds/missed approaches.

You could easily test it out yourself, without even having to engage enemy AI and hope they hit your radiators. Just push the engine over the limits for a while to cause some intentional radiator damage. The easiest way to do it would be to go maximum power with the radiators closed at slow speed (that is, a full power climb at a steep angle). The coolant temperature will go way up and the resulting increase in pressure will break your coolant system.

From that point on you can just fly around and see how long it takes for the engine to seize, probably using a bit of time compression too. Cheers ;)

[Blackdog_kt]

Actually, it is unrealistic. If you've done much tinkering with engines then you'll know this is a glaring fault.

Water at high temperatures in a pressurized cooling system is going to spurt out with fury if there is damage induced by a bullet. If there is the a leak the system loses it's ability to pressurize the coolant and then no amount of water will help as without pressurization it will start to boil within seconds. Immediate overheating will ensue.

That was actually the point where i had doubts. I think the mechanic i described is sound, but what i have no first-hand knowledge of is how fast the cooling system empties.

If its pressurized like you say (and now that you mention it, it sounds reasonable for it to be pressurized) then of course it will empty fast. I know for a fact that the Spit had such a system, i have flown the A2A accusim Spit for FSX on a friend's PC and the over-pressure valve in front of the cockpit is clearly mentioned in its manuals.

On the other hand, there are a handful of aircraft in the sim that have non-pressurized systems. The Stuka is definitely one of them. The 110 could be another and, by extension, maybe the 109 too.

About the Stuka, it's stated in the manual of the sim: because the system is unpressurized, the allowable max temp decreases the higher you go. I guess this is because liquids evaporate easier when the ambient pressure is lower. So, to keep the coolant in liquid form at high altitudes you need to have lower temps, maybe because the steam isn't effective at cooling.

As for the 110, it has allowed temp zones depending on altitude marked on its temp instruments, just like the Stuka, which probably indicates a similar system.

In such a case the discussion broadens a bit and we have a set of pros and cons for each system: pressurized ones are more efficient in cooling but empty faster, while non-pressurized ones take longer to empty when damaged but limit your max temps at higher altitudes.

I'm not stating definite facts here, just making a series of what to me seem reasonable assumptions, so if anyone with more knowledge can chip in that would be great. Maybe we should form the whole thing up into a CEM-related suggestion/improvement request?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Every book I have read from WW2 have one thing in common regardless country they flew for: puncture/leak/damage in cooling system and they started looking for shortest route to a safe landing. Those engines did not like overheating and seizure of them could cause fire or worse. Current CEM in CoD needs some overhaul as does many other things. But liquid cooling system is a fragile thing, especially in high performance aircraft engines.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Maybe it's not the fact that the rounds are unrealistic, but that we can use as many of them as we like resulting in unrealistic loadouts.

What happens with DeWilde for the RAF can be reproduced with M-shells for the Luftwaffe. In reality, there wasn't unlimited supply of the "best" ammo types and pilots were forced to mix and match due to availability concerns.

Maybe a set of realism options down the road can help us with this. Having some preset historical loadouts as well as the ability to change them, but with some restrictions, would be the way to go. For example, restrictions could be to the tune of "x % of such and such rounds" or "X of such type of rounds in every 10 rounds total".



I see a 200 post thread about the historic percentage of deWilde ammo available already lurking ...

[drewpee]

I find I expend my ammo way too quickly, so it's a good idea to keep your Service Revolver handy. The trick is to fly really close alongside the Jerry. wave at him friendly like and smile. If your quick you can let of a few shots at him before he works out whats going on.

What ever you do don't be tempted to use you flare gun as it's hopeless at flight speeds and if it goes off in you crate you'll have a fire to deal with as well as a pissed off German. Better to keep the flare for those times you and Jerry crash close to each other. Make eye contact and give him a friendly smile, extend a hand then give him a good old man huge. Thats when you let him have it with the flare down the back of the flight suit. LOL, gets them every time.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I find I expend my ammo way too quickly, so it's a good idea to keep your Service Revolver handy. The trick is to fly really close alongside the Jerry. wave at him friendly like and smile. If your quick you can let of a few shots at him before he works out whats going on.

What ever you do don't be tempted to use you flare gun as it's hopeless at flight speeds and if it goes off in you crate you'll have a fire to deal with as well as a pissed off German. Better to keep the flare for those times you and Jerry crash close to each other. Make eye contact and give him a friendly smile, extend a hand then give him a good old man huge. Thats when you let him have it with the flare down the back of the flight suit. LOL, gets them every time.

Drewpee, please remember that it is a bannable offence to create a post that could reserect the the tube shooter discussion! It just aint worth it! ;)

It allways bothered me to Why they would choose to model the .303 MK1 round in the load out? Was it really used in the BoB! Very slow MV compared to the other rounds would have thrown out any hope of convergence in mixed loadouts.

[gpang788]

Does anybody know what "reserve ammo" means?

[klem]

Does anybody know what "reserve ammo" means?

If you mean 'Residue ammo' its where you can set the last rounds of your ammo belt to be different from the rest. For instance on one or two guns you could set a residue of 50 rounds white tracer to let you know you are running out of ammo.

[Osprey]

I see a 200 post thread about the historic percentage of deWilde ammo available already lurking ...

Not really. 1 gun was DeWilde from accounts I've seen. Pilots screamed for it but couldn't get it.

If you mean 'Residue ammo' its where you can set the last rounds of your ammo belt to be different from the rest. For instance on one or two guns you could set a residue of 50 rounds white tracer to let you know you are running out of ammo.

Except really it's to say "You've run out" because there's about a second left when you get to that stage lol

[gpang788]

If you mean 'Residue ammo' its where you can set the last rounds of your ammo belt to be different from the rest. For instance on one or two guns you could set a residue of 50 rounds white tracer to let you know you are running out of ammo.

Ah yes silly me i meant residue ammo ! Thanks for the answer :grin:

[badfinger]

preatty much wha JRB said

1 - 8 Tracer + icendiary ( 1 -1 ratio , red and yellow for the cool factor)
2 - 7 Icendiary.
3 - 6 Armour piercing.
4 - 5 Armour piercing.

convergence set at 100 meters our 150 meters. aim at the engine.

I tried your set-up (although not the red/yellow part), aimed at the engines, and am knocking them off! I cut a 109 in half, the other night. With limited ammo, I can take down three twin-engined bombers per flight.

Thanks,

binky9

[trademe900]

Hey there!

I am currently looking for a effective ammo-settings against 109´s for the spit / Hurri. I once had a pretty good setting which blew up the 109s engine within (+/-)a second but I accidentally deletet it when i reinstalled the game...

So what are you using? And what is effective against bombers as well?

I appreciate any help, thank you!

Continu0

You can not 'blow up the engine' of a 109. What you are probably referring to is setting the aircraft engine area on fire with the dewilde round. However, the 109 will fly around just fine as a fireball, such is the porked damage modelling we have currently.

The only real practical ways to down a 109 currently are a) Cause large leak in fuel tank, have him run out of fuel. b) Pilot kill (quite difficult for some reason despite hundreds of rounds raking the canopy area, not so with the 109 MG17). It is very difficult to disable control surfaces or cause damage to the engine.

(source: hundreds of hours on repka dogfight)