Friday Update, June 01, 2012

[BlackSix]

Good day everyone!

We continue to work on the patch. We’ve just completed all scheduled tasks dealing with performance improvements and will start on the list of various graphics glitches tomorrow. We’re also continuing to work on improving aircraft FM and system modules. These tasks will take at least four days, meaning we won’t being internal testing until next Friday at the earliest. If the internal test version is good and stable, it won’t take too long after that to release it to the public.

We also continue to introduce you to aircraft from our future not-yet-announced project. The official announcement is just a few short weeks away. Until then, we won’t be able to provide more details and answer specific questions, but please rest assured we aren’t in any way shape or form planning to move away from our reputation as the most realistic WWII sim on the market.

The plane we’re showing today is the famous Soviet LaGG-3 fighter that bore the brunt of the fighting alongside the I-16, Yak-1 and the MiG-3 in the most difficult early years of the war. Opinions on its quality differ greatly, however this forefather of the fearsome Lavochkin line of fighters remained in service with the Soviet VVS until the very end of the war.

(This screenshots from the special "viewer" and not the actual game engine).

Have a great weekend!

[PeterPanPan]

Thanks B6 :-)

[GF_Mastiff]

nice cant wait.

[BH_woodstock]

what happened to the ground textures?

[Skoshi Tiger]

Looking very good!

Thanks for the update!

[ATAG_Septic]

Thanks for the update.

Have a good weekend yourself.

Septic.

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks B6, good weekend to you.

[BlackSix]

what happened to the ground textures?

It's viewer, not game.

[_YoYo_]

Really nice :grin: , just need the more info about date of patch, maybe next week?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Thanks for the update. Can' wait to see the new patch :) Sequel looks good too! Have a nice weekend!

[BlackSix]

Really nice :grin: , just need the more info about date of patch, maybe next week?

I don't know myself at present. And about date of announcement too. :)

[Flanker35M]

S!

The terrain looks nice too :) WIP but still :)

[philip.ed]

Nice update, the aircraft models are still astounding.

Any word on the SDK being released after the announcement? It would really allow the community to transform CloD once it's ditched.

[smink1701]

Thanks BS. Please add fixing the AI to your To Do list. Even with community-provided fixes it's better but still needs much work. Just play some of the QM's and you'll see what I mean...twitchy planes, and acrobatics that would make a stunt pilot envious. It's the worst part of the game in my opinion. IL2 1946 was boring but much more realistic.

[banned]

Unbelieveable.

[philip.ed]

The AA looks better in these pictures as well...

[Jatta Raso]

speaking of FM i hope you fix the performance balance between Spitfire and 109; it's nearly unplayable for reds at the moment, was way better before this beta patch. right now 109 is almost impossible to catch, plus it has a ridiculous climbing advantage.

[ATAG_Doc]

Good luck.

[mazex]

Thanks for the update B6!

Can you update your original post to clarify for the ones that have not been here along the ride for years that understand it's from the "viewer". Just add that it's from the "viewer" and not the actual game engine - and therefore it's just a texture pasted on a flat surface with no effects or objects etc...

[maki4444]

This looks awesome, thank you BlackSix. I can't wait for the patch to make the game awesome, and then fly the two Aces campaign developed for this awesome sim.

Now that I look at the overhaul of Il2, i.e. the battle of moscow. I can't help but make a comparison with DCS. We may see a whole ww2 world recreated by 1C!!!! I have a feeling that it won't be long until we will be seing remodeled and revitalised Zeroes, Wildcats, a map of N. Africa and so on :D

Great job you guys fantastic. Can't wait.

These updates are a real lifesavet btw.

[McFeckit]

Love the clouds! :grin:

[BlackSix]

Any word on the SDK being released after the announcement?

I'll ask Ilya after announcement about SDK


Can you update your original post to clarify for the ones that have not been here along the ride for years that understand it's from the "viewer". Just add that it's from the "viewer" and not the actual game engine - and therefore it's just a texture pasted on a flat surface with no effects or objects etc...

Added

[SiThSpAwN]

Good day everyone!

but please rest assured we aren’t in any way shape or form planning to move away from our reputation as the most realistic WWII sim on the market.

This must make you happy as well B6, not much use for a mission builder in an MMO :)

Anyways, thanks for the update, looking forward to the next release of the patch within the next couple weeks, baring any gremlins....

[Continu0]

This must make you happy as well B6, not much use for a mission builder in an MMO :)

Anyways, thanks for the update, looking forward to the next release of the patch within the next couple weeks, baring any gremlins....


He didn´t say that it isn´t going to be an MMO with this, or is he?

@ Black Six, is there a possibility that you can say us anything about if we have to pay monthly fee to play on a server? Infos about that would be great, but i can understand if you can not say anything.

[ATAG_Doc]

What will it cost and will it be credit card only??

[SiThSpAwN]

He didn´t say that it isn´t going to be an MMO with this, or is he?

@ Black Six, is there a possibility that you can say us anything about if we have to pay monthly fee to play on a server? Infos about that would be great, but i can understand if you can not say anything.


Sorry, you are right, he didnt, I guess I just read into "most realistic" as being mission based combat and not 16 v 16 MMO battles :)

[catito14]

Good day everyone!


We also continue to introduce you to aircraft from our future not-yet-announced project. The official announcement is just a few short weeks away. Until then, we won’t be able to provide more details and answer specific questions, but please rest assured we aren’t in any way shape or form planning to move away from our reputation as the most realistic WWII sim on the market.



Hi B6, first of all, thanks a lot for this update!
I have only one little question, the new project will be like the CloD? ( i.e: flightsim with an offline sp campaign and mp ) or a MMO project?

Regards!

[[URU]AkeR]

Thanks B6!! that Lagg looks sweet! Cant wait to get on those rusian ac with COD engine!

[philip.ed]

I'll ask Ilya after announcement about SDK


Many thanks B6, have a great weekend :grin:

[Kwiatek]

We’re also continuing to work on improving aircraft FM and system modules. These tasks will take at least four days, meaning we won’t being internal testing until next Friday at the earliest. If the internal test version is good and stable, it won’t take too long after that to release it to the public.




I really hope that 1C alongside graphic engine will manage to make historical and accurate FM and performacne of BOB planes according to RL data and test ( including 100 Octan fuel versions). Most data and test are known and avaliable for all at internet sites - most important are here:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

http://kurfurst.org/

Also there are a lot of data published here in these forums.

I really hope 1C FM engineer follow these subject and got needed data.

I belive it is possible to make it much more close to RL data then now expecially there are a lot of bugs and errors in CLoD planes performacne and engine settings ( Merlin III and MErlin XII).

[adonys]

B6, any news at all regarding the Radio Comms and the AI, please?

[Stealth_Eagle]

Thanks for the update BlackSix. I hope all goes well in programming out the glitches and I have one simple question for you: Is there any progress to report on player controlled vehiciles that you can state since of the recent announcement of DCS: Combined Arms would mean that two great flight sims will have ground controlled vehiciles from two different eras. Hope I don't cause any anger but I am just curious since I know that I plan to try to get more people to join this game when that stuff comes out.

Best regards,
Eagle

[LcSummers]

Thanks B6 for this update.

Will wait until the patch is released. Hopefully in less than 2 weeks i will recieve my new GC. With that one i hope i will not have much problems.

Looking forward to the new sequel.

S!

LC

[Melbourne, FL]

B6...also from my side the question: Is progress made with the AI and the radio comms? In the last patch there was a note:


Changes and Improvements

Artificial Intelligence

Partial list:

• Fixed some non-working orders, removed others from the list. There are no more orders available to the player that the AI does not follow.

This is not true. E.G. attack commands are still not working at all. And it is not just me. Many other players report the same. See examples:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=430001&postcount=115
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=430011&postcount=117

Also the AI is still performing the crazy rolls and pulls moves a human player can not even come close to. Is there any progress in that field?

These are the problems that make single player gaming completely useless at the moment.

Alexander

[_YoYo_]

Just id like too say:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/202612/lolz/two_weeks.gif

[Bounder!]

Thanks for the update Blacksix

Also...

I really hope that 1C alongside graphic engine will manage to make historical and accurate FM and performacne of BOB planes according to RL data and test ( including 100 Octan fuel versions). Most data and test are known and avaliable for all at internet sites - most important are here:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

http://kurfurst.org/

Also there are a lot of data published here in these forums.

I really hope 1C FM engineer follow these subject and got needed data.

I belive it is possible to make it much more close to RL data then now expecially there are a lot of bugs and errors in CLoD planes performacne and engine settings ( Merlin III and MErlin XII).

+1

[drewpee]

Thanks for update. I really hope you can get that FM/DM sorted soon , I've noticed online play has really taken a dive over the last few weeks(not a good sign).

[garengarch]

thanks very much b6 - looking forward to the patch

[Jatta Raso]

Thanks for update. I really hope you can get that FM/DM sorted soon , I've noticed online play has really taken a dive over the last few weeks(not a good sign).

looks like the same on this update threads... cheers for ending the CTDs but c'mon guys, the performance values for the Spitfires are worse than before!! the FM seems more real alright, but the climbing and speed performances are unacceptable.

[Insuber]

speaking of FM i hope you fix the performance balance between Spitfire and 109; it's nearly unplayable for reds at the moment, was way better before this beta patch. right now 109 is almost impossible to catch, plus it has a ridiculous climbing advantage.

Funny when i fly the Spit IIa it seems a better plane than the catastrophe that you describe, it allows me to achieve more kills than the Bf. But maybe I'm just lucky ... :-)

[Buchon]

Ohh ... pretty LaGG-3 :grin:

I can´t wait to be burned inside :-P, what a good memories :rolleyes:

[bucsher]

thanks for the update and keep up the good work!

is microlag a performance issue or a graphics glitch? :)

[Insuber]

Thanks B6 ... How can one doesn't love you all? :-)

[Jatta Raso]

it is a catastrophe, or at least that's my experience, i've been having more trouble catching 109s with the current Spit IIa than in the previous patch on the Spit Ia; and their climbing performance (those instant verticals the 109s like to pull off) seems to have gone even harder to follow.

also, i can't shoot s**t on a 109, so i can't really compare; but either 109 pilots are becoming better, rookies started to bugger off, or there's definitely a change for worse on performance balance, for the red side.

so i'm getting good at shooting... bombers. can't seem to catch a fighter these days, and used to..

[Insuber]

it is a catastrophe, or at least that's my experience, i've been having more trouble catching 109s with the current Spit IIa than in the previous patch on the Spit Ia; and their climbing performance (those instant verticals the 109s like to pull off) seems to have gone even harder to follow.

also, i can't shoot s**t on a 109, so i can't really compare; but either 109 pilots are becoming better, rookies started to bugger off, or there's definitely a change for worse on performance balance, for the red side.

so i'm getting good at shooting... bombers. can't seem to catch a fighter these days, and used to..

As usual, rookie Bf pilots are easy meat, skilled ones are deadly. And the other way round :-)

[335th_GRAthos]

Thank you BlackSix,

Looking forward for more soon!

Nice week end,

~S~

[badaboom]

Looking forward to the patch and more news on sequel,Thank You for update and have a great weekend.

[Corto]

epic game....
epic developers...
epic Update...

a epic weekend for you black six....

greetings.... the epic community....

[Codex]

epic game....
epic developers...
epic Update...

a epic weekend for you black six....

greetings.... the epic community....

Great post dude ... it's just epic ;)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

but please rest assured we aren’t in any way shape or form planning to move away from our reputation as the most realistic WWII sim on the market.
Thanks for the update BS!

And that is good news!

[Bf110pilot]

Fix the Bf-110 and Bf-109 dopplar engine sound (OUTSIDE VIEW). Return it to last patch please. Thats all many are asking. Dont fix whats not broke. Thanks

[Sailor Malan]

I just took out a funeral policy I wonder which one Ill get first . The game or the oven:cool:

[d0o0m]

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgames.mail.ru%2Fpc%2Fnews%2F2012-05-20%2Fsluhi_1s_rabotaet_nad_mmo_versiej_il_2_shturm ovik%2F%23comments&act=url

My money is on MMO

[GOA_Potenz]

this is simple, battle of moscow will be a MMO, just that, forget what we know about Il-2 series, now that MG have no money, they need to make some, and what's the best way to make some on the days of highspeed broad band??? yes ya right!! a MMO...

don't pay attention i'm scuttered

but mads and drunks always say the truth...

potz

[BlackSix]

@ Black Six, is there a possibility that you can say us anything about if we have to pay monthly fee to play on a server? Infos about that would be great, but i can understand if you can not say anything.

It's very important question, but I can't say at present, sorry. Wait for announcement.

Hi B6, first of all, thanks a lot for this update!
I have only one little question, the new project will be like the CloD? ( i.e: flightsim with an offline sp campaign and mp ) or a MMO project?

Temporary title from russian articles is "IL-2 Online" and I can't comment details of the project. You have to wait for announcement.

B6, any news at all regarding the Radio Comms and the AI, please?

In final readme.

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

Hehe......we'll take that as a no then,lol.:lol:

[Ze-Jamz]

New revised ww2ol anyone?

Paid for that game every month for over 2 years and had probably the most fun too even though the game looked shyte compared to what was out at the time..

[Revvin]

Good news, can't wait to hear about this new project. I know the IL-2 name has a lot of history for sim fans but I think CLOD has tainted that a little so I hope the new game that has the temmporary title 'IL-2 Online' will drop the IL-2 bit and maybe just dropped to a sub title like 'From the makers of IL-2' and start fresh with a new main title.

[Continu0]

It's very important question, but I can't say at present, sorry. Wait for announcement.


I understand. Thank you!:)

[blackbaron]

New revised ww2ol anyone?

Paid for that game every month for over 2 years and had probably the most fun too even though the game looked shyte compared to what was out at the time..

yes please! I'm really hoping it will be more WWIIOL style, considering they have already showed us videos of the work they have done on player controllable ground units! but I guess we'll have to wait and see

[Flanker35M]

S!

Just do not give those bloated FMs like in WW2OL ;) Hawk was based on some imaginary charts etc. Best part of WW2OL was the ground war to an extent.

[Ze-Jamz]

S!

Just do not give those bloated FMs like in WW2OL ;) Hawk was based on some imaginary charts etc. Best part of WW2OL was the ground war to an extent.

Haha..Muchos fun that game

I remember when the 190 was introduced :rolleyes: good times

[6BL Bird-Dog]

Thanks for the weekly news Black Six.

[Revvin]

God I hope it's not like WWIIOL's flight component. Famous LW flyer from Warbirds DocDoom had a hand in producing that and it took about 4 years for them to fix the bug where the 109's fuselage acted as a third wing :rolleyes::confused: it wasn't bad enough they equipped it with a weapon of mass destruction it had to out manoeuvre every plane in the game too. Ground war was fun though but it looks horribly dated. I'm hoping any IL-2 MMO will be more airway focussed with AI ground units.

[Bf110pilot]

Fix the outside view dopplar engine sound in the 110 and 109., please. BlackSix do you copy? It was perfect last patch. The engine sounds are very important to the simulation to a point where I and others would rather not play. It kills the Sim in my opinion. We beg u.

[louisv]

Doppler, not dopplar.

Christian Doppler.

[strom32]

There seems to be a need to strike a balance between realistic FM and gameplay. If the spit, hurri and 109,190 were modelled correctly. Does anyone think that the gameplay will be good?

[Wiesel]

u saw those pictures?

http://airwarfare.com/sow/index.php/activity-stream/63-gamekeeper/photos/photo?albumid=2#photoid=41

To the left: More planes, Il2, I-16, Ju-88, Lagg-3 to the right: tanks, villages

[Thee_oddball]

There seems to be a need to strike a balance between realistic FM and gameplay. If the spit, hurri and 109,190 were modelled correctly. Does anyone think that the gameplay will be good?

can I offer you a blindfold or zigarette?

[banned]

Just fix the friggin thing you boof heads. It's getting boring now. Only 11 people on the whole thing. Yawn.

[choctaw111]

Thanks for the update. I am really looking forward to seeing what you have in store for us.

[CWMV]

Just fix the friggin thing you boof heads. It's getting boring now. Only 11 people on the whole thing. Yawn.

Oh man, THAT is sig-worthy stuff right there!

[hiro]

Thanks for the update !





hmm i read the post about the 1C Il-2 based MMO . . .


just wondering what engine will it be the 1946 or the CLOD / Moscow one?

But that'll be in the announcement . . .

I kept laughing at the posts saying IL-2 is hardcore . . .



actually there's another thread and the MMO will use CLOD engine . . . awesome.

[Wiesel]

Funny that they develop something new, but don't update the official homepage of Il2 Cliffs of Dover. The section 'planes' was never processed!

This is really ridiculous :grin:

[banned]

Oh man, THAT is sig-worthy stuff right there!
I totally agree. I really do.

[EAF331 Starfire]

@The Developers

It been a while since I ditched the game. Currently I am waiting for the next patch. Then it dawned on me. I think your guys are not taking advantage of the Steam system. One of the advantages should be an easier patching since all of our players have to be logged in to Steam (which I think sucks but since it is there, the advantages should be used to the max ;)).

Why not rolling out smaller fixes as they are corrected. Like the bad ground handling of the Blenheim or one of the other minor bugs.

It is a question of psycology; "Seeing is beliving"
The community would get a feeling of somthing IS happening.
:grin:

As it is all we have are the developer updates and the 'beta' program.
Without a build-in MOD switcher in COD (like the JGME) the 'beta' program is not very attractive. It devide the community into beta's and non-beta pilots.

Over this long haul I have gotten the 'feeling' (back to seeing is beliveing ;)) that nothing have happend eventhough your blog says otherwise.

So I suggest Steams abilities to the max.
Don't be affraid. Steams own people are harassing us with updates to Steam all the time so your patches will shine out because they will actually have value to the users.

[Osprey]

Just fix the friggin thing you boof heads. It's getting boring now. Only 11 people on the whole thing. Yawn.

Indeed. Look at this thread. The first Friday update since the patch release and after 3 days it has a mere 8 pages. That is truly a sign that even the dedicated have lost faith...

[Buchon]

We’ve just completed all scheduled tasks dealing with performance improvements

I guess that the task finished is this :

Known Issues

• Not fully optimized: grass, clouds, and trees. Clouds cause constant FPS drop; grass and trees cause hick-ups. A few extra days of work for this, a few days for grass, few days for clouds.

If so ...

Does this mean that the hick-ups caused by the grass and trees are fixed ?

Did they tested this performance fixes with a internal build ?

[Anders_And]

Guys, CLOD is not their priority anymore! They work on the sequel! Right or wrong, this is the way it is. Its pretty obvious... Sad it is too...
Currently the feeling is that the 100% of the team is working on the sequel, and IF and WHEN they have time at the end of the week before going home for the weekend, they spend 30mins on fixing some things for CLOD.
More like a:
-Oh Yes, guys lets see if we can fix a bug or two in our old game before the weekend, just to make people feel like we are working hard on it.

To be honest, if they had a 1-2-3 guys actually working 100% on bug fixing for CLOD they WOULD release small patches and fixes here and there every few weeks or so.... I wouldnt be surprised if they problems would take all their programmers a day or so to fix, but since they are not intrested this will not happen...
The community can say what it wants about this post, ie "you have no idea about programming" etc etc but the facts are staring us in the face!
No small patches or fixed means that they are not working very hard to fix it no matter whats being said...

[Baron]

@The Developers

It been a while since I ditched the game. Currently I am waiting for the next patch. Then it dawned on me. I think your guys are not taking advantage of the Steam system. One of the advantages should be an easier patching since all of our players have to be logged in to Steam (which I think sucks but since it is there, the advantages should be used to the max ;)).

Why not rolling out smaller fixes as they are corrected. Like the bad ground handling of the Blenheim or one of the other minor bugs.

It is a question of psycology; "Seeing is beliving"
The community would get a feeling of somthing IS happening.
:grin:

As it is all we have are the developer updates and the 'beta' program.
Without a build-in MOD switcher in COD (like the JGME) the 'beta' program is not very attractive. It devide the community into beta's and non-beta pilots.

Over this long haul I have gotten the 'feeling' (back to seeing is beliveing ;)) that nothing have happend eventhough your blog says otherwise.

So I suggest Steams abilities to the max.
Don't be affraid. Steams own people are harassing us with updates to Steam all the time so your patches will shine out because they will actually have value to the users.


I agree, but for some unknown (daft?) reason the development team keep tripping them selves up repeatedly by trying to fix everything in one go. I cant for the life of me understand why they choose this approach.

Surely fixing one bug at the time (i know, this affects that and that effects this and so on, but still) must be easier than working on a multitude of problems at the same time to the extent that they, in the end, dont see the forest for all the trees.

Btw, maby this MMO thingy is the never seen in a flightsim before feature Luthier mentioned a few months back.

[robtek]

Guys, CLOD is not their priority anymore! They work on the sequel! Right or wrong, this is the way it is. Its pretty obvious... Sad it is too...
Currently the feeling is that the 100% of the team is working on the sequel, and IF and WHEN they have time at the end of the week before going home for the weekend, they spend 30mins on fixing some things for CLOD.
More like a:
-Oh Yes, guys lets see if we can fix a bug or two in our old game before the weekend, just to make people feel like we are working hard on it.

To be honest, if they had a 1-2-3 guys actually working 100% on bug fixing for CLOD they WOULD release small patches and fixes here and there every few weeks or so.... I wouldnt be surprised if they problems would take all their programmers a day or so to fix, but since they are not intrested this will not happen...
The community can say what it wants about this post, ie "you have no idea about programming" etc etc but the facts are staring us in the face!
No small patches or fixed means that they are not working very hard to fix it no matter whats being said...

I really find it hard to believe that someone posting here didn't care about learning some facts first before writing something which appears slightly less intelligent.

The programming devs are working on the game engine, which is used in CoD AND of course also in the sequel.
The model buiders, mission designers and so on are working on the sequel as there will be no more additional contend solely for CoD.

[Thee_oddball]

I guess that the task finished is this :



If so ...

Does this mean that the hick-ups caused by the grass and trees are fixed ?

Did they tested this performance fixes with a internal build ?

those are caused by calls to non native library's (C++) which cause interop which causes ...stutters, the only way i know to fix that is to rewrite all the C++ libs to in .NET.

[Continu0]

those are caused by calls to non native library's (C++) which cause interop which causes ...stutters, the only way i know to fix that is to rewrite all the C++ libs to in .NET.

I am not an expert and am wondering what this means. I guess it isn´t just pressing ctrl C, ctrl V...?

[Anders_And]

I really find it hard to believe that someone posting here didn't care about learning some facts first before writing something which appears slightly less intelligent.

The programming devs are working on the game engine, which is used in CoD AND of course also in the sequel.
The model buiders, mission designers and so on are working on the sequel as there will be no more additional contend solely for CoD.

You sir bore me...

And also just confirm what I wrote..

[zapatista]

those are caused by calls to non native library's (C++) which cause interop which causes ...stutters, the only way i know to fix that is to rewrite all the C++ libs to in .NET.

meaning what ? a few edits in some lines of code that are critical for this function, or months of rewriting large chunks of code ?

[JG14_Jagr]

Guys, CLOD is not their priority anymore! They work on the sequel! Right or wrong, this is the way it is. Its pretty obvious... Sad it is too...
Currently the feeling is that the 100% of the team is working on the sequel, and IF and WHEN they have time at the end of the week before going home for the weekend, they spend 30 mins on fixing some things for CLOD.


Its important to understand somethnig you obviously are missing.. They ARE working on CLOD by doing the work on the engine they are doing now. CLOD and whatever their next project is ARE the same thing.. what you see is just artwork.. The cockpits, the exterior models, the maps.. thats all art that is assigned to certain objects in game. The game ENGINE is what they are working on and any fixes they find benefit BOTH the old and the new.
CLOD and any future projects ARE based on the same foundation and changes to the foundation effect any and all projects based on it. When you hire a 3D artist and you assign him to build things and he is finished, you assign him more things to build.. its what he does and every day he is not doing 3D you are paying him for nothing 3D art when done its DONE. They could add the Lagg3 to CLOD if they wanted.. its just assigning it an bject slot and attaching the appropriate calls to the 3D models and FM's etc.

Building new planes and FM's is not slowing the development of CLOD, its effectively using the people you hired to produce content. 3D artists in general are not doing code work, they aren't working on network code.. they do 3D art work..

You seem to be looking at CLOD as if it is some finite object. It is not. Its a modular game engine and it just as easily could have been the ETO or Moscow or the Pacific. The eye candy can be changed very easily.. the core operating code is what makes it good or bad and that is shared.

[catito14]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=431634&postcount=8

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=431217&postcount=55

Mmmm, it seems that the BoM could be an MMO instead of PC Game like CloD .... will be very sad if this happen...

[Blackdog_kt]

meaning what ? a few edits in some lines of code that are critical for this function, or months of rewriting large chunks of code ?

Depends on the size of the libraries. It's definitely not a copy/paste thing though and it goes into more than just "translating" the syntax from one language to another.

For example, say i have a small game written in Java or C# on my PC. These languages have what is called an automatic garbage collector: any entity that has served its purpose and not being used anymore is automatically purged from the PC's memory.

Now let's say i want to port my little game to objective C so that i can sell it on the apple store and make money off people with iPhones. I have to comb through the code and manually tell it exactly what and when to purge from memory, because it's not automatic.

The behaviour of certain commands can also complicate things, in one language a command does something and exits that block of code, in another language it might do things in a different sequence, etc.

All in all there is some complexity involved, so the deciding factor here is the amount of code to be "translated" between languages.

[Thr0tt]

lol, here's some new aircraft from a new game we are working on, oh btw yeah were working on this patch thing.

Nice, all I can say is the day 1 purchasers for your product is going to be pretty non-existent, its a shame as it could be the best game out there but will be battling from the start a negative vibe.

[Continu0]

Depends on the size of the libraries. It's definitely not a copy/paste thing though and it goes into more than just "translating" the syntax from one language to another.

For example, say i have a small game written in Java or C# on my PC. These languages have what is called an automatic garbage collector: any entity that has served its purpose and not being used anymore is automatically purged from the PC's memory.

Now let's say i want to port my little game to objective C so that i can sell it on the apple store and make money off people with iPhones. I have to comb through the code and manually tell it exactly what and when to purge from memory, because it's not automatic.

The behaviour of certain commands can also complicate things, in one language a command does something and exits that block of code, in another language it might do things in a different sequence, etc.

All in all there is some complexity involved, so the deciding factor here is the amount of code to be "translated" between languages.

Thank you!

[Thee_oddball]

meaning what ? a few edits in some lines of code that are critical for this function, or months of rewriting large chunks of code ?

they would have to write the tree's in C# to get rid of the interop (performance penalty)

FYI the game uses something called "speed tree's" http://www.speedtree.com/

[GOZR]

Russian addon .. I'm all in ;)

[Chivas]

Guys, CLOD is not their priority anymore! They work on the sequel! Right or wrong, this is the way it is. Its pretty obvious... Sad it is too...
Currently the feeling is that the 100% of the team is working on the sequel, and IF and WHEN they have time at the end of the week before going home for the weekend, they spend 30mins on fixing some things for CLOD.
More like a:
-Oh Yes, guys lets see if we can fix a bug or two in our old game before the weekend, just to make people feel like we are working hard on it.

To be honest, if they had a 1-2-3 guys actually working 100% on bug fixing for CLOD they WOULD release small patches and fixes here and there every few weeks or so.... I wouldnt be surprised if they problems would take all their programmers a day or so to fix, but since they are not intrested this will not happen...
The community can say what it wants about this post, ie "you have no idea about programming" etc etc but the facts are staring us in the face!
No small patches or fixed means that they are not working very hard to fix it no matter whats being said...

You couldn't be more wrong if your name was Mr Wrong and the Mayor of Wrongville.

Most of the development team is working on the game engine and features that can apply to COD and all Sequels and MMO's, those features include AI, Commands, FM, DM, Clouds, Water, Dynamic Weather. Only the map makers, and eastern campaign builders are working on aspects that can't be aplied to COD and any other sequel.

[mazex]

lol, here's some new aircraft from a new game we are working on, oh btw yeah were working on this patch thing.

Nice, all I can say is the day 1 purchasers for your product is going to be pretty non-existent, its a shame as it could be the best game out there but will be battling from the start a negative vibe.

Well, as the new game has a goal to reach alpha in 2013 and the ongoing development on the base engine will benefit CloD it would surprise me if the game is not rather OK by then.

The latest alpha/beta is actually rather OK, but we are so "tainted" that we don't see it. I think it is what version 1.0 of CloD should have been... Working OK on high end rigs and lots of fixable bugs :)

/mazex

[David198502]

it somehow puzzles me, that iam not at all excited about the friday update.
in the past i was really looking forward to them, interested in what we are going to see in the future...but now,...its getting boring for me at least, seems i really lost faith. although i still play cliffs almost every day, currently im not at all excited about the upcoming announcement or your future projects.for now at least.
maybe my feelings change again, if the current major problems are fixed in cliffs, but i dont see that coming in the near future.

[drewpee]

it somehow puzzles me, that iam not at all excited about the friday update.
in the past i was really looking forward to them, interested in what we are going to see in the future...but now,...its getting boring for me at least, seems i really lost faith. although i still play cliffs almost every day, currently im not at all excited about the upcoming announcement or your future projects.for now at least.
maybe my feelings change again, if the current major problems are fixed in cliffs, but i dont see that coming in the near future.

+1,
I still think COD will be fixed one day but no longer am I waiting eagerly each week. Having said that I can't see BOM or any sequel being successful until COD is fixed.

[Osprey]

those are caused by calls to non native library's (C++) which cause interop which causes ...stutters, the only way i know to fix that is to rewrite all the C++ libs to in .NET.

C++ is native, not non native. What makes you think there are perf problem between the layers anyway? If so the answer would be to optimise that, not convert.

[Osprey]

it somehow puzzles me, that iam not at all excited about the friday update.
in the past i was really looking forward to them, interested in what we are going to see in the future...but now,...its getting boring for me at least, seems i really lost faith. although i still play cliffs almost every day, currently im not at all excited about the upcoming announcement or your future projects.for now at least.
maybe my feelings change again, if the current major problems are fixed in cliffs, but i dont see that coming in the near future.


This is reflected in the online numbers and the responses in this thread alone.

The dev team have lost.

[von Pilsner]

Thanks for the update, B6.

[6S.Tamat]

This is reflected in the online numbers and the responses in this thread alone.

The dev team have lost.
And obviously the fault was caused by the winers, never satisfyed by anything.

[He111]

P2 ?? ... P3 ?? .. P8 ?? ..:grin:

.

[David198502]

And obviously the fault was caused by the winers, never satisfyed by anything.

joke of the week

[Anders_And]

You couldn't be more wrong if your name was Mr Wrong and the Mayor of Wrongville.

Most of the development team is working on the game engine and features that can apply to COD and all Sequels and MMO's, those features include AI, Commands, FM, DM, Clouds, Water, Dynamic Weather. Only the map makers, and eastern campaign builders are working on aspects that can't be aplied to COD and any other sequel.

And you know this because??!

[Thee_oddball]

C++ is native, not non native. What makes you think there are perf problem between the layers anyway? If so the answer would be to optimise that, not convert.
the core game is written in .NET and the tress are a C++ DLL hence the interop, and What makes you think there are perf problem between the layers anyway? is the fact that you hear that people have high FPS but still have stutters which gets fixed by turning OFF the tree's should be your first indicator that interop is causing a performance hit.

optimization? the game was in dev for 5 years before release...it came out of the gate with no doc, no dedicated server soft and very little content...at the very least it should have been optimised at release.

[adonys]

have it ever crossed your mind that it might be because of a bad implementation of the speed tree library?!!

[Flanker35M]

S!

My guess is that Luthier's team is patching up something the previous programmers did or did not do at all. Taking over someone elses code can be hard..

[philip.ed]

And obviously the fault was caused by the winers, never satisfyed by anything.

How can it be their fault? The same whiners who are content with Il-2 1946, a much older game? It's the lack of content, failure to actually simulate the Battle of Britain (BoB2 offers much better offline gameplay) and the consistent bugs and lessening features.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

And obviously the fault was caused by the winers, never satisfyed by anything.
One thing for sure.. it didn't help maters

[Baron]

How can it be their fault? The same whiners who are content with Il-2 1946, a much older game? It's the lack of content, failure to actually simulate the Battle of Britain (BoB2 offers much better offline gameplay) and the consistent bugs and lessening features.

Having nothing to complain about other than the colour of English countryside would be a dream come true right about now im sad to say.

Iv been on the positive side the entire time, but now, i lost interest completely. It pains me to say this, oh god, you have no idea, but there really is some truth to the phrase "enough is enough".

[Frequent_Flyer]

One thing for sure.. it didn't help maters

I don't beleive any less complaining would have altered the course on Clod . I find it very ironic, the spokes person for 1C, has limited command of the English language, and the initials of his call sign are BS....

[SiThSpAwN]

S!

My guess is that Luthier's team is patching up something the previous programmers did or did not do at all. Taking over someone elses code can be hard..


Was the entire team swapped out when Oleg left? I thought he was the only one that left?

[SiThSpAwN]

I don't beleive any less complaining would have altered the course on Clod . I find it very ironic, the spokes person for 1C, has limited command of the English language, and the initials of his call sign are BS....

His initials couldnt be anything but when dealing with the mess these forums are at times....

[Ataros]

Was the entire team swapped out when Oleg left? I thought he was the only one that left?

At least sound designer, graphics engine, FM, AI and water programmers were fired or left IIRC and probably several others too. When people fail to deliver results in 3-5 years they have to be fired at last one day. But it may take even more time for new people to decipher old code.

It is good the idea of MMO saves the project from being shut down completely IMO.

[SiThSpAwN]

At least sound designer, graphics engine, FM, AI and water programmers were fired or left IIRC and probably several others too. When people fail to deliver results in 3-5 years they have to be fired at last one day. But it may take even more time for new people to decipher old code.

It is good the idea of MMO saves the project from being shut down completely IMO.

Ok, I never knew the fate of the original team, that makes it even easier for me to swallow the problems faced right now.

As for the MMO I agree, but only something more like Warbirds but with maybe different options to get people into the game.

[Buchon]

At least sound designer, graphics engine, FM, AI and water programmers were fired or left IIRC and probably several others too. When people fail to deliver results in 3-5 years they have to be fired at last one day. But it may take even more time for new people to decipher old code.

It is good the idea of MMO saves the project from being shut down completely IMO.

They already ditched completely the old sound engine code and written a new one, and same with the graphics engine (this took 6 months).

So there no old code to decipher in those areas at least.

I guess that the new AI and FM guys are the ones having hard times.

[Buchon]

the core game is written in .NET and the tress are a C++ DLL hence the interop, and What makes you think there are perf problem between the layers anyway? is the fact that you hear that people have high FPS but still have stutters which gets fixed by turning OFF the tree's should be your first indicator that interop is causing a performance hit.

optimization? the game was in dev for 5 years before release...it came out of the gate with no doc, no dedicated server soft and very little content...at the very least it should have been optimised at release.

Ohh ... this is an interesting theory, I did not understand you at first but now is more clear.

But ... I recall that this hick-ups (no fps affected) are not in the old build, they was micro-freezes (fixed in the new build).

But you are right ... it can be a interop problem but I think that can be caused by the issue of left the tree and grass code aside of the new build that is in the Alpha patch, so the ddl dependence is high.

Has is written in the know-issues list in BlackSix patch post, the tree and grass optimizations was not complete but it will be in a few days.

Anyway we´ll see this soon :)



By the way, to clear misunderstandings in the DX9/10/11 debate :

Of course you can made a game with DX9/10/11 support but what I was saying is that by doing it you´ll not fully use the DX11/10 possibilities.

That´s it.

Cheers

[Flanker35M]

S!

Not being a programmer, just an average joe, but IMHO they should drop DirectX 9.0c and focus on DX 10/11 as ANY decent GPU these days can handle both. Backwards compatability is like an anchor slowing you down. Look at Frostbite engine used in BF3 for example, it will go 64-bit ONLY in a year. No more limitations of 32-bit like 3Gb RAM or whatever. That would be future proof, not dragging relics with you. Just some thoughts, propably not very educated but nevertheless :) Thoughts?

[Chivas]

And you know this because??!

Because its obvious, and if you can't see this there is no point in further argument. Any improvement the development makes to the game engine, bug fixing, campaign tools, terrain map tools, Triggers, AI, Commands, FM engine, DM engine, Water, Clouds, Dynamic Weather etc can be applied to COD. Some directly with patches to COD before the release of the Sequel, and later when you combine the Sequel with your installation of COD.

It is possible but highly unlikely that the development has dropped work on the Sequels too work solely on the MMO's. The reasons this is unlikely is the MMO won't be completed for atleast a couple of years and the development needs cash now with the release of a Sequel. Also why would the development drop this source of income from the game engine. Everything depends on getting the game engine working. Then developing games, and MMO's from that working game engine is relatively easy.

Luckily it appears the investors/publishers/developers are showing some confidence they will be able to fix the game engine or there would be no talk of developing an MMO.

[SiThSpAwN]

S!

Not being a programmer, just an average joe, but IMHO they should drop DirectX 9.0c...

For future titles yes, but I think the fact that this game was released with it stated on the box it would support 9 means the are bound to do so. At least that makes sense to me...

[mazex]

have it ever crossed your mind that it might be because of a bad implementation of the speed tree library?!!

It sure can be, but there are tons of other games that use Speedtree out there with very good performance, like Battlefield 3 that hardly can be accused of stuttering ;) But then of course, I hardly think there is another game that use so many trees on the same frame :)

Anyway - as the main logic in the game is written in .NET and the Speedtree dll:s are written in C++ there will be interop problems in this critical part that for sure will not help! Of course they can maybe do optimization so that they load stuff and don't do the marshalling every frame, but I really don't know how the Speedtree libraries work in runtime... As Speedtree does culling, lods etc I don't see how you could get around a lot of marshalling to get the C++ trees "into" your C# landscape manager? Just guessing here...

Another thing is that they seem to be using Speedtree 5.2 which is not the latest release so let's hope they work with Speedtree support to fix this and are not stuck on a license for 5.x only.

[SiThSpAwN]

It sure can be, but there are tons of other games that use Speedtree out there with very good performance, like Battlefield 3 that hardly can be accused of stuttering ;) But then of course, I hardly think there is another game that use so many trees on the same frame :)

Battlefield isnt trying to render the amount of area that COD is though....

[mazex]

Battlefield isnt trying to render the amount of area that COD is though....

Just as I said - there is hardly any other game (than CloD) that tries to render as many trees into one frame...

[Insuber]

And obviously the fault was caused by the winers, never satisfyed by anything.

The masses will be back singing "Hosannah" in 10 seconds when the game will be fixed 100%. The devs have lost nothing. Imagine that a new flight sim game is released. Only the new game will be called BoM. And the whiners will become apostles. :-)

PS I'm currently in India and I see things from a different perspective :-D

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The masses will be back singing "Hosannah" in 10 seconds when the game will be fixed 100%. The devs have lost nothing. Imagine that a new flight sim game is released. Only the new game will be called BoM. And the whiners will become apostles. :-)
Agreed 100%

[Ploughman]

Game fixed 100%? Well pigs'll be packing Hispanos at angels one five before that happens as it stands to reason that it'll never be sound to that degree. So I disagree.

I stood directly behind an elephant once, it wasn't deliberate, that's just from where I approached him, that elephant became quite unhappy about me standing directly behind him and I quite rapidly decided to move out to his flank where he could see me, this seemed to placate the old gent and we both got one with what we were about. I would recommend, therefore, that if you ever come across an elephant, you keep within his field of view.

[philip.ed]

I think when BoM is working beautifully, a SDK is released, mods begin to emerge: the sim will take off.

I really hope it does. Even if it doesn't, let's take a different approach...

the SDK will open up Clod immensely. The team have modelled a part of the world that is familiar to a lot of people. Aside from the combat aspects, the sim could easily expand into a civvy one (cross channel flights etc) and if it can support larger maps, I can see the current one being expanded.

All in good time anyway. I may come across as negative, but I'm forever hopeful.

I don't doubt the game can be fixed; for some/many/a lot/a minority/the deluded/the content/the adults/the kids(...) it already is.

[ATAG_Doc]

The masses will be back singing "Hosannah" in 10 seconds when the game will be fixed 100%.

But don't make me wait 6 months. That's not a fair trade.

[ElAurens]

Well pigs'll be packing Hispanos at angels one five

*AHEM*

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/977/pigat15k.jpg

:-)

[Thee_oddball]

Battlefield isnt trying to render the amount of area that COD is though....

Battlefield 3 is also not written in .NET...

[Thee_oddball]

It sure can be, but there are tons of other games that use Speedtree out there with very good performance, like Battlefield 3 that hardly can be accused of stuttering ;) But then of course, I hardly think there is another game that use so many trees on the same frame :)

Anyway - as the main logic in the game is written in .NET and the Speedtree dll:s are written in C++ there will be interop problems in this critical part that for sure will not help! Of course they can maybe do optimization so that they load stuff and don't do the marshalling every frame, but I really don't know how the Speedtree libraries work in runtime... As Speedtree does culling, lods etc I don't see how you could get around a lot of marshalling to get the C++ trees "into" your C# landscape manager? Just guessing here...

Another thing is that they seem to be using Speedtree 5.2 which is not the latest release so let's hope they work with Speedtree support to fix this and are not stuck on a license for 5.x only.

+1 , beyond that is the limits of 32bit... which is not bad but it is definitely not future proofing a 10 year game engine.

I have recently been doing extensive profiling around memory limits in .NET on a 32bit process. We all get bombarded by the idea that we can allocate up to 2.4GB (2^31) in a .NET application but unfortuneately this is not true :(. The application process has that much space to use and the operating system does a great job managing it for us, however, .NET itself seems to have its own overhead which accounts for aproximately 600-800MB for typical real world applications that push the memory limit. This means that as soon as you allocate an array of integers that takes about 1.4GB, you should expect to see an OutOfMemoryException().

Obviously in 64bit, this limit occurs way later (let's chat in 5 years :)), but the general size of everything in memory also grows (I am finding it's ~1.7 to ~2 times) because of the increased word size.

What I know for sure is that the Virtual Memory idea from the operating system definitely does NOT give you virtually endless allocation space within one process. It is only there so that the full 2.4GB is addressable to all the (many) applications running at one time.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/200348/is-there-a-memory-limit-for-a-single-net-process

[carguy_]

Good day everyone!
The plane we’re showing today is the famous Soviet LaGG-3 fighter that bore the brunt of the fighting alongside the I-16, Yak-1 and the MiG-3 in the most difficult early years of the war. Opinions on its quality differ greatly, however this forefather of the fearsome Lavochkin line of fighters remained in service with the Soviet VVS until the very end of the war.

Good news, BlackSix.
I sincerely hope you can model those VVS planes right this time.

[Opitz]

Good news, BlackSix.
I sincerely hope you can model those VVS planes right this time.

Based on statement "fearsome Lavochkin" it will be definitelly correct...

[Osprey]

Fearsome to their own pilot, what with the awful build quality, wings peeling apart etc..... :D

[Osprey]

And obviously the fault was caused by the winers, never satisfyed by anything.

You are satisfied are you?

[6S.Tamat]

You are satisfied are you?

Well. Totally not.

[Osprey]

If only you'd stopped whining, we'd have had a 100% fixed game by now!

:rolleyes:

[David198502]

If only you'd stopped whining, we'd have had a 100% fixed game by now!

:rolleyes:

:grin:

[6S.Tamat]

If only you'd stopped whining, we'd have had a 100% fixed game by now!

:rolleyes:
lol

[xpzorg]

Fearsome to their own pilot, what with the awful build quality, wings peeling apart etc..... :D
Yes it's strangely, how planes with wooden body, made by children can fly more perfect than other aircrafts of this era;)

[Insuber]

Well. Totally not.

Tamat you are a just a lovely and gentle fanboy soul imprisoned in an evil whiner body ... one day an exorcist will free your CloD-praising soul from her flesh prison ... :-D

Just kidding. I'm afraid that someone just didn't catch the sarcasm of your previous post.

Cheers from Delhi!

[6S.Manu]

Good news, BlackSix.
I sincerely hope you can model those VVS planes right this time.

And weapons... and bombs... ;)

[Osprey]

Yes it's strangely, how planes with wooden body, made by children can fly more perfect than other aircrafts of this era;)

That must be why any German pilot needing to add 30 kills a month to his tally just popped over to the Eastern front........JAT

[robtek]

That was because of the abundance of targets with strict orders they couldn't deviate from.

[Osprey]

A little simplistic don't you think?

[6S.Manu]

A little simplistic don't you think?
No, I don't.

[xpzorg]

That must be why any German pilot needing to add 30 kills a month to his tally just popped over to the Eastern front........JAT
The killed 30 airplanes in month in first two years of war because vvs pilot training include only take off and landing, so veterans say non-fight casualties was far more extensive.
Try to imagine your chance to survive on ATAG after only some training hours of landing and take off;).
I hear the voice of Western propaganda in your head:).
So in second part of 1943 situation has dramatically changed.

[csThor]

The killed 30 airplanes in month in first two years of war because vvs pilot training include only take off and landing, so veterans say non-fight casualties was far more extensive.
Try to imagine your chance to survive on ATAG after only some training hours of landing and take off;).
I hear the voice of Western propaganda in your head:).
So in second part of 1943 situation has dramatically changed.

Soviet pilot training was inadequate even before the war - and in late 1941 and 1942 it was abysmal (hence the "Take-off - Landing" designation for green pilots). Added to this, however, must be the lack of radios in most aircraft until late 1943, a totally whacky doctrine (which chained soviet pilots to a task/target and forced them to fight in any situation) and of course the fact that the Luftwaffe was very much the "elite" institution with regards to pilot training that it wanted to be itself at least until late 1942.

And even in late 1943 the major reasons the VVS loss rate went down considerably was the influx of many new units on their side and the withdrawal of most of the german fighter force after Kursk (back to Germany). The VVS learned much, mind you, but it still suffered far too many losses simply because of unimatinative tactics and a general stubborn adhesion to its inefficient doctrine. ;)

[xpzorg]

Soviet aviation was not the first in importance on the front, especialy if it's not ground attack planes. So yes, i agree with csThor. Many time hear from veterans: make 10 flights and you will live. They learned on the front.

[bucsher]

it's friday again ;)
come on!

[banned]

it's friday again ;)
come on!
Only update news tonight. Blacksix says it will be this evening.

[Bobb4]

Soviet pilot training was inadequate even before the war - and in late 1941 and 1942 it was abysmal (hence the "Take-off - Landing" designation for green pilots). Added to this, however, must be the lack of radios in most aircraft until late 1943, a totally whacky doctrine (which chained soviet pilots to a task/target and forced them to fight in any situation) and of course the fact that the Luftwaffe was very much the "elite" institution with regards to pilot training that it wanted to be itself at least until late 1942.

And even in late 1943 the major reasons the VVS loss rate went down considerably was the influx of many new units on their side and the withdrawal of most of the german fighter force after Kursk (back to Germany). The VVS learned much, mind you, but it still suffered far too many losses simply because of unimatinative tactics and a general stubborn adhesion to its inefficient doctrine. ;)

Agree with you. However an even more important reason is the target rich environment the German's flew in.
But one must stress German aces who flew on the Western front also out performed their British and later American counter-parts.
This could again be put down to pilot skill and target rich environments..
Sometimes I get the feeling that soviet aces do not get the credit they deserve. There were 2719 Russian aces who scored over 5 kills while the UK only had 539. The US had 1293 (two fronts including Japan) with the Germans having 2884 on two fronts, East and West.
So cut the Russians a bit of slack ;)

[Osprey]

The killed 30 airplanes in month in first two years of war because vvs pilot training include only take off and landing, so veterans say non-fight casualties was far more extensive.
Try to imagine your chance to survive on ATAG after only some training hours of landing and take off;).
I hear the voice of Western propaganda in your head:).
So in second part of 1943 situation has dramatically changed.

That seems contradictory to what Manu just said. Which is it?

As for Western propaganda, I can't say what it's like from behind the iron curtain what with all those statues of leaders and state controlled TV but I don't think it's 'propaganda' when you have so many VVS pilots getting shot down despite superior numbers. Are you saying that this didn't happen? It's certainly not something that the BBC has spent resources rubbing into the UK populace from my experience.

[Osprey]

There were 2719 Russian aces who scored over 5 kills while the UK only had 539. The US had 1293 (two fronts including Japan) with the Germans having 2884 on two fronts, East and West.
So cut the Russians a bit of slack ;)

Interesting. How does that compare to the number of pilots enlisted though? It would be better to have percentages because it's pretty much obvious that in total numbers the UK will be far lower. The UK population in WW2 was about 30 million at the time, what was the Russian population?

Also, I don't know what confirmation was required for a 'kill' but RAF pilots had it relatively tough compared with the other nations on the Western Front, requiring a witness seeing the enemy go in or an actual crash site. On the Western front the fights were often above 25kft and shot down A/C were not recorded. All nations overclaimed, just some more than others.

[xpzorg]

Some Russian veterans did not speak very well about the skills of Western pilots. I can imagine that some of Western veterans say too about the Russians. It's not objective view anyway. Veterans say that in last two years of war luftwaffe was mere apology of former glory.

PS http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/alekseev/index.htm if you can read with google translate i recommend this interview.

[carguy_]

So cut the Russians a bit of slack ;)
One cannot deny the skills the speciall Soviet flight squads had. Though that doesn`t even remotely pose a reason to model the Soviet planes in the most optimistic variant possible.

[bongodriver]

Did the update thread really just turn into a willie waving contest about who had the most aces with the inevitable finger pointing at the Brits for having the smallest?

[Osprey]

What we lose in size we make up for in variety thanks to the Empire. We punch above our weight, with great satisfaction........;)

[Osprey]

And where is our game killing FM patch B6? Surely it doesn't take over 3 weeks to make some temporary tweaks to make things slightly more realistic or is it something that 1C aren't concerned with?

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

+1

I concur,at the very least can we get the FM's corrected........please!

Surely there has been enough input from the community to assist you with this,and seeing this is a flight sim,I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that it would mean a lot to the majority of people on here.


EDIT:It is at last being sorted out,re today's update post from B6