SoWC:BoB Multisquad Campaign Starting [Archive] - Official Fulqrum Publishing forum

5./JG27.Farber

05-28-2012, 06:45 PM

NEWS:

RED AND BLUE TEAM ARE NOW FULL!!!! REGISTRATION CLOSED

-08/06/2012

REGISTRATION CLOSED - BOTH TEAMS ARE FULL!

Storm of War Campaigns:Battle of Britian (Historical Multiquadron Campaign)

8pm European time (To Be Confirmed)

17th June 2012

7 Missions - 1 per week. 1 life/aircraft per mission, no reflies 20 mins after battle start! Server will be up 15 mins beofre for connecting.

Overview:

In the research we conducted trying to find red/blue attack/defend missions for our campaign we quickly realised that RAF Bomber Command played only a miniscule role in the whole battle. When RAF bomber Command did venture out it was often unescorted in daylight raids - which often proved deadly! So after much digging and deliberation we decided Blue would attack soley.

The missions selected are all based on historic actions in the Battle of Britain. To avoid people simply looking up the next mission and taking away the element of suprise, no dates will be used and they may or may not be in chronological order! So keep an open mind and your eyes peeled!

We are trying our best to create immersion and give the whole campaign a distinct BoB taste. For example we want to simulate the sense of urgency and desperation on the red side. We want the blue side to feel over streched and far from home - eyes on fuel guages!

Realism Settings:

FULL REALISM

AntropomorphicControl 0
ComplexEManagement 1
TorqueGyroEffects 1
EngineTemperatureEffects 1
FlutterEffects 1
WindTurbulence 1
StallSpins 1
Vulnerabilty 1
BlackoutsRedouts 1
Realisticgunnery 1
RealisticBombing 1
LimitedAmmo 1
LimitedFuel 1
CockpitAlwaysOn 1
NoOutsideViews 1
HeadShake 1
NoIcons 1
NoPadlock 1
Clouds 1
TakeoffLanding 1
RealisticLandings 1
NoMapIcons 1
NoMinimapPath 1
NoAutopilot 1
NoReplacementPlace 0
NoReplacement 0
NoSelect 0
NoReplacementArmy 0
NoSelectArmy 0
NoCreate 0

Player Limit 99:

First to sign up will fly first. So please get your squadron leader to sign up on the link below ASAP and have him make a post on the average number of pilots he expects to attend. 45 slots for Red. 45 Slots for Blue and 9 Blue bomber slots. If there is overwhelming interest we will run it again for those that missed out.

1 Life per Mission:

You may only have 1 life and 1 aircraft per sortie. So please practice your taxi-ing and take offs and be aware that sometimes your Squadron wont be the only Squadron on that airfield! Sometimes you will spawn in a hanger. If you have not taken off and do die respawn but please dont make a habbit of it.

Aircraft and Limits:

Only those aircraft below are limited, all other aircraft are unlimited. Sorry no Italian aircraft in our campaign. Numbers in brackets is the actual value of the percentile of 45 aircraft/players, for example 38% of 45 players is (17 ) as stated under Red, July, Spit Ia.

Red:

July
SpitfireI - Obsolete
SpitfireIa - 38% (17 ) (replaced by Spit IIa because of FM problems of Spit Ia)
SpitfireIIa - 0%
Hurricane DH20 - Obsolete
Hurricane Rotol - 62% (28 )

August
SpitfireI - Obsolete
SpitfireIa - 34% (15 ) (replaced by Spit IIa because of FM problems of Spit Ia)
SpitfireIIa - 0%
Hurricane DH20 - Obsolete
Hurricane - 66% (30 )

September
SpitfireI - Obsolete
SpitfireIa - 29% (13 ) (replaced by Spit IIa because of FM problems of Spit Ia)
SpitfireIIa - Unknown% - Proberbly 0%
Hurricane DH20 - Obsolete
Hurricane Rotol - 71% (32 )

Based on Servicable aircraft in 11 Group.

Blue:

July
E1 - 44% (20 )
E3 - 30% (14 )
E4 - 20% (9 )

August
E1 - 40% (18 )
E3 - 8% (4 )
E4 - 52% (23 )

September
E1 - 38% (17 )
E3 - 1% (1 )
E4 - 61% (27 )

Based on Percentile losses of 109s by subtype.

Mission 1 - July
Missions 2-6 - August
Mission 7 - September

Limited aircraft will rotate or each squadron will be assigned so many of each fighter type depending on what each side agrees with its self. As a general rule therefore consider red mostly flying Hurricanes and blues flying E1's untill August/September where they will mostly be flying E4's.

Objectives:

Red teams sole aim is to stop the bombers and lose as few aircraft and pilots as possible!

Blue teams aim is to destroy RAF fighter Command and to lose as few Aircraft and pilots as possible!

The BoB campaign is planned to be run as follows:

Red side will organise themselves based on in game radar reports, under the direction of one of several Squadron leaders who will operate flights. Squadron leaders are planned to have access to Ground Control / Chain Home throught the mission (TAB, 4,) menu in game, which after a small delay will guide them to the nearest threats. Every Red Squadron Leader with the tail number 1 (A) will be able to access this menu. The nember of Squadron leaders will be dictated by the number of red Squadrons. There will be a time delay of 4 mins from request and a 5 min lockout. So Squadron leaders will only be able to request information every 5 mins. The response will be given in the chat window and will tell the squadron leader the estimated course from last contact not the actual position. The position will also be based on land marks. For example "25+ aircraft 40km North of Calais...". The radar stations and control centres will be broken into several sectors. For example Dover station will cover the sectors to the South and East of Dover upto a realistic range. We have aimed to get the most realism out of the radar system.

Blue side will have an organised brief and will generally be escorting bombers and conducting Frei-Jagd fighter sweeps to gain Air superiority.

It is upto Squadrons/Staffeln to coordinate between themselves and improve upon the effectiveness of their forces to gain victory through tactics and teamwork.

The campaign will have Statistics recorded. From these stats will be determined which side (if any) won the mission. Victory Conditions will loosely be decided by how many Bombers the reds managed to shoot down and how many fighters were lost trying to do this both in the air and on the ground.

Statistics and scoring:

A seperate database will be created for each mission so you can see the performance of yourself, your squadron and your team. It will look something like this:

http://70.176.212.41:8888/ClodStats/index.php

More details and signup here:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/

bw_wolverine

05-28-2012, 07:48 PM

Just a note in case it wasn't considered:

June 17th is Father's Day over here (not sure if it's the same in Europe). So that may provide some conflicts for a number of our older pilots.

But that note out of the way, hurrah! Very welcome news!

5./JG27.Farber

05-29-2012, 04:30 PM

Forgot to mention there will be stats. Added at bottom of original post.

bw_wolverine

05-29-2012, 07:01 PM

If you're going to allow allotments of 1 (one) aircraft, then I think there should be a couple IIas in August and September considering they were first delivered to a few squadrons in August.

Like, maybe 2 in Aug and 4 in Sept?

It's not even that I think they will be of any use to us in such small numbers. I just think they should have a representation of some small amount based on their historically being introduced in Aug.

Plus, it's better for the optics of the thing.

EDIT: After reading into this a bit more, the IIas of 611 were in Lincolnshire (not in 11 Group) and even P7350 wasn't moved to Hornchurch until October so not including IIa's seems more okay. I hadn't realized they never stationed them in the south until Oct.

So, no Spit IIas is fine by me after all. We're in for a bit of a beating, I'm afraid, but we'll do our best.

klem

05-29-2012, 10:00 PM

Steam or Patch?

_79_dev

05-29-2012, 11:02 PM

~S~

Server is running latest patch+hotFix and campaign will be running on it as well. Unless we will get something new...

5./JG27.Farber

05-30-2012, 01:42 AM

Steam or Patch?

Theres always something I leave out :) As Vogler said beta patch + hotfix. Unless something more stable and accurate comes out.

klem

05-30-2012, 06:15 AM

Theres always something I leave out :) As Vogler said beta patch + hotfix. Unless something more stable and accurate comes out.

Thanks guys, I've punted it to the Squad.

79_dev = Vogler? JG27?

Hi dev, are the 79 guys in on this?

_79_dev

05-30-2012, 10:04 AM

79_dev = Vogler? JG27?

Hi dev, are the 79 guys in on this?

Yes my good old friend...That is just my old nick. I don't belong to 79 anymore but I will ask theme.

macro

05-30-2012, 11:31 AM

Im game for a laugh, think this will be massacre with no spit 2's. Can fly either red or blue not with a squad so can fill in to make numbers up

Jatta Raso

05-30-2012, 01:27 PM

bw_wolverine

05-30-2012, 04:53 PM

no Spit IIa ?? i think the blues have enough advantages already...

i'm all in favor of historical settings, but the only historical thing of these settings is the set of AC names in a list; the general performance of the AC has nothing of historical, i highly doubt this choice will portrait anything close to reality; don't want to sound harsh but i would rather have a performance balance closer to reality, instead of adjusting the AC availability to match a names list of a given time frame.

or to put it simpler, no Spits IIa at this time doesn't match or try to come close to historical performance balance, and gameplay wise it's also a not very good idea

Actually, I just did a bit more research into this and asked some of our other guys in 501/64 and the Spitfire IIa wasn't really in action near the south until Oct.

First IIas showed up in service in August, but they were not near 11 group in the south until October-ish, as far as I can find in my lookings.

So in the interests of the historic, I'd prefer not to see the IIa in action in this campaign after all. That doesn't mean I think we're not in for a beating, but I'm all for the idea behind not including it: historical as possible. FMs are borked, but we can't help that.

I'd rather have a Spit I anyway :P Two-stage prop for me!

Jatta Raso

05-30-2012, 06:01 PM

i see your point but if historical means recreating the actual conditions, you should choose AC availability to match the performance balance present at the time, instead of making an AC list that respects just a names ratio of that time and little else. the current choice gives the blues a performance and thus a tactical advantage never present in 1940; the Spits available (I,Ia) were competitive against the 109-E, in CLoD even the IIa is hardly, in RL 1940 the Hurricane could perform well on certain conditions, in CLoD is obsolete.

however cheers for these guys organizing the event, it's their show and they run it as they see fit, mine are just thoughts from an outsider

5./JG27.Farber

05-30-2012, 06:25 PM

I'd rather this thread just be kept for people asking questions rather than a FM debate. However I do see you point but I dont have any info on the spit or hurricanes from clod and RL. Maybe you can PM me. ;)

However the idea of the campaign is not for fighters to simply go toe to toe. Its about the objectives. Reds must loose as least number of fighters in the air and on the ground and Blue must loose the least number of bombers. If both sides do not try to achieve this objective, they will lose.

macro

05-30-2012, 07:02 PM

sorry mate my intention wasnt to start THAT debate here, just pointing it out for the sake of gameplay , i would have thought the blues would like some competition as in the game the spit 2 is the only plane near the 109 due to the inacurate fm's (apparantly). i thought it would be a walk over for blues but im game to find out if so :grin:

5./JG27.Farber

05-30-2012, 09:09 PM

No problem. Im open to any suggestions.

salmo

05-31-2012, 06:17 AM

A pity the battle is scheduled for a Sunday night (European time). This will exclude most pilots in the Oceania timezones as 9pm European time 17th June 2012 (Sunday) is early Monday morning in Australia, New Zealand & east Asia regions. That being said, I have some questions.

1. Will a player who runs out of ammo or fuel be allowed to land & spawn in another plane?
2. Will a player who has a damaged aircraft be allowed to land & get a new undamaged aircraft?
3. I believe that only aircraft XX-A (leader) of a group has access to radar calls, if the leader is killed, does XX-B then have access to radar facilities?

Keep up the good work :)

wannabetheace

05-31-2012, 06:40 AM

A pity the battle is scheduled for a Sunday night (European time). This will exclude most pilots in the Oceania timezones as 9pm European time 17th June 2012 (Sunday) is early Monday morning in Australia, New Zealand & east Asia regions. That being said, I have some questions.

Keep up the good work :)

Yeah same here. It is Monday morning. 5 am or 6am in Korea.
how log will the mission last? if it lasts 2hours barely make it before office hours :confused:

5./JG27.Farber

05-31-2012, 08:00 AM

A pity the battle is scheduled for a Sunday night (European time). This will exclude most pilots in the Oceania timezones as 9pm European time 17th June 2012 (Sunday) is early Monday morning in Australia, New Zealand & east Asia regions.

Sorry about that. We were aiing for Saturday at the same time for the readon you stated but our server admin will be working Saturday 90% of the time. So unfortunatley it just want possible.

That being said, I have some questions.

1. Will a player who runs out of ammo or fuel be allowed to land & spawn in another plane?

No. Think of it like Coop mode from Old IL2.

2. Will a player who has a damaged aircraft be allowed to land & get a new undamaged aircraft?

No. Think of it like Coop mode from Old IL2.

3. I believe that only aircraft XX-A (leader) of a group has access to radar calls, if the leader is killed, does XX-B then have access to radar facilities?

Keep up the good work :)

No he doesnt. Hence its important to stay with the Squadron leader and protect him. ATAG have kindly said they would host comes so it should not be such a problem. However I still have to catch up with Bliss or someone to finalise it.

5./JG27.Farber

05-31-2012, 08:02 AM

how log will the mission last? if it lasts 2hours barely make it before office hours :confused:

The maxiumum time for a mission will be 2 hours. However Most of the action will be wrapped up around the hour mark in most missions.

Buzpilot

06-01-2012, 06:18 PM

Looking forward to this, will be interesting to see how Allied planes will do.
If it's too embarrassing, i'll go DCS until a decent patch is out :)

klem

06-01-2012, 06:21 PM

Six so far from 56 Sqdn. There may be an absentee on first night due to something called a fotball match involving Holland.

5./JG27.Farber

06-01-2012, 07:37 PM

Hi Klem, Glad your joining us. At least you or one of your guys needs to register on the SoWC's forum. A link can be found at the bottom of the OP. Yea I know I hate registering on forums too (I had to register twice).

Last time we ran the big one we found it was too prone to failure to use PM's and also far to complicated and time consuming. So we have a forum with a public, Red and Blue area. Each mission has its own section and Squadron leaders have a section where only other SL'ers can reply. Its here you can discuss tactics with other SL'ers. Each mission then has its own section for red and blue for mission planning.

Best hurry aswell becasue both teams are around half full. ;)

EDIT, the red team would be half full if more that one squad had filled in the thread...

salmo

06-02-2012, 05:18 AM

I've registered at the forums but cannot login. Can't re-register as email address is in use. :(

klem

06-02-2012, 06:54 AM

At the moment we are short of RAF pilots.

If any single players out there want to fly RAF you don't, as the campaign website explains, have to be a member of a Squad. You can tag along with other Squads, we may be able to offer Leaders or we could help get some of you together to form your own temporary campaign Squad.

This is for RAF pilots only of course. The LW can, well... pfffttttt... they've got plenty already ;)

5./JG27.Farber

06-02-2012, 08:11 AM

I've registered at the forums but cannot login. Can't re-register as email address is in use. :(

Salmo as of this post Ive activated all the accounts wich have applied.

At the moment we are short of RAF pilots.

501 and another ACG squad has yet to register themselves so its actually about even.

klem

06-02-2012, 08:19 AM

...............
501 and another ACG squad has yet to register themselves so its actually about even.

Great :)

5./JG27.Farber

06-02-2012, 09:28 AM

Sorry Salmo, I'd opened the email to activate your account but not clicked the link.

In other news for Ozzies, we have decided to push the campaign back 1 hour to so they wont be late for work. However that means they have to go to bed an hour earlier. :rolleyes:

5./JG27.Farber

06-02-2012, 10:55 AM

Blue registration is pretty full. As yet no one has shown interest in flying blue bombers - 9 places, flying virtually every blue bomber in the campaign.

Reds stand at 26/45

SG1_Lud

06-02-2012, 11:36 AM

Hi Farber, we at the SG1 will bring both bombers and fighters. How do we state that, I missed something. Thanks.

5./JG27.Farber

06-02-2012, 12:14 PM

Ok how many wish to fly fighters and how many for fighters?

There are all bomber types just not always all of the in every mission. JU87, JU88, HE111, BF110

SG1_Lud

06-02-2012, 12:20 PM

PM sent at SoWC

Buzpilot

06-02-2012, 06:44 PM

Blue registration is pretty full. As yet no one has shown interest in flying blue bombers - 9 places, flying virtually every blue bomber in the campaign.

Reds stand at 26/45

Those reds include our server group?
501: 6
64: 6
401: 5
JG26: 5

5./JG27.Farber

06-02-2012, 06:51 PM

Yes. Numbers are correct on the SoWC forum, JG26 signed up as Blue.

Buzpilot

06-02-2012, 06:53 PM

Yes. Numbers are correct on the SoWC forum, JG26 signed up as Blue.

I see, i just noticed JG26 wasn't supposed to be among reds, sorry guys :)

vranac

06-02-2012, 07:18 PM

First of all thank you for organizing this campaign.

I would like to fly for the red side.I'm registered on SoWC forum.

5./JG27.Farber

06-03-2012, 04:10 PM

Please follow instructions there, Squadron sign up is closed for blue except for reservists. Red is half full.

Individual sign up is open, please make a post expressing you wish to fly with a squadron as a pubber in the appropiate section.

All accounts have been activated to date.

Jatta Raso

06-04-2012, 12:12 AM

5./JG27.Farber

06-04-2012, 12:28 AM

i think the problem is about Reds not wanting to participate on a turkey shoot (i sure don't :-|)

There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

bw_wolverine

06-04-2012, 02:58 AM

klem

06-04-2012, 08:25 AM

There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

Farber, with respect I don't think you can be tied to historical marks of Spitfire because we do not have historical Spitfire MkI or MkII performance (on several levels). 1C have not published charts for RAF a/c performance since the Patch+mini patch but I can show you how the pre-patch CoD Spitfire Ia compared with RL in the attached. The Orange/yellow line (taken from 1Cs own chart, also attached) is the pre-patch Spitfire MkI versus the RL data for the Spitfire I and 109s. It was pathetically undermodelled.

All the latest patch has done is:-
"Spitfire Mk.I
Fixed the top speed dip above 18,000 ft."
see http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=419449&postcount=1
So it's still pathetically undermodelled.

and they neutered the overmodelled (?) Spitfire MkII:
"Spitfire Mk.II
The aircraft's speed performance was too good at all altitudes, sometimes 60 mph better than the real thing."
(same link)

I have not done any tests on the MkII since the patch but we have been flying it exclusively since the patch and it is now unquestionably below the 109 performance so you have nothing to fear. My gut feeling is that it may now be something more like a Spitfire MkI or MkII running on 87 Octane fuel. The Spitfire MkII actually ran on 100 octane with the Merlin XII not 87 octane and would give a normal max boost of +9lbs and therefore more power than +6lbs but our MkII doesn't, it only gives ~6lbs. It seems to be modelled with 87 Octane fuel and so without the +9lbs boost. I believe its performance if it had used 87 Octane would have been little different to the MkI, the 100 octane simply allowed higher boost pressures to be used which is what gave the higher performance, not the simple fact that it was 100 octane. Similarly the maximum MkI performance with 100 Octane would have been similar to the MkII with 100 octane as they both allowed the same 12lbs short term boost. A lot is made of the difference between the Merlin III and the Merlin XII but in performance terms I don't think they were much different. The XII was structurally stronger and so was able to routinely use a higher normal max boost (9lbs with 100 octane) than the Merlin III (6.25lbs) which is why it could routinely outperformed the MkI.

If you want a meaningful combat scenario I think you should use the Spitfire MkIIa which we currently have in COD to represent Spitfire MkIa's running on 87 Octane. We know that in the BoB both front line Marks actually used 100 Octane and short term overboost (12lbs) giving short term low-medium altitude advantage but we can't get round that just now.

The COD Spitfire MkI is heavily porked. IMHO the CoD MkII seems to get closer to the real MkI than the CoD MkI but is still no match for a properly flown 109.

I hope no-one will drag up all the endless arguments about MkI/MkII, 87/100 octane, CoD/RL. The above is my belief and I won't argue any of those points in here.

Osprey

06-04-2012, 09:45 AM

5./JG27.Farber

06-04-2012, 10:48 AM

Hey guys, its about historical accuracy which is not just in a name Klem you are quite correct. The thing is that we in 5./JG27 dont fly spits, you can talk about different boosts and fuel and all that but all we know is Daimler Benz and kmh etc... So its hard for us to understand however a graph on speed and climb anyone can understand... Which is why I asked. Ive been looking for them myself this morning and found the same lack of material from 1c.

From what I have heard from red players on this forum, seen some graphs and experienced online, I'd agree with what you saying. We will replace the SpitIa with the II. - However if some patch comes out during the campaign we may have to readdress it for historical purposes just like we have here.

Osprey

06-04-2012, 10:53 AM

The climb tests are an edit made by IvanK I think. The speed is from B6.

What are you trying to confirm exactly Farber? I'm assuming here that you don't want a turkey shoot because it's not fun for anybody and you are trying to establish that the Spitfire II isn't over-modeled? It isn't, it under-performs compared to the 109.

5./JG27.Farber

06-04-2012, 11:06 AM

Everyone posted whilst I was looking for info Osprey... Read my above post again. What I was trying to establish was is the Spit II in clod more like the Spit Ia of RL...

klem

06-04-2012, 11:49 AM

Some of you guys without a Squad have said you'd like to take part. Please go here:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/t6-public-players-read-me#60

and put your names down. We can sort you out. We can't do it from here.

Osprey

06-04-2012, 12:25 PM

Everyone posted whilst I was looking for info Osprey... Read my above post again. What I was trying to establish was is the Spit II in clod more like the Spit Ia of RL...

Unfortunately not, but neither is the 109 ;)

They are however the best match we have. I'd even argue that the Spitfire Ia is a better match for the Hurricane IRL than the Hurricane Rotol is. ('#' line vs cyan line vs '*' line)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/zulu64/climbscod6.jpg

IvanK

06-04-2012, 01:04 PM

Here is a real world comparison Spit I v Spit II both ROTOL Constant speed equipped. Hashed line the MKI Merlin III , continuous line the MKII Merlin XII. The MKXII Merlin supercharger ratio was a little different to the MKI. The MKII was also a little heavier than the MKI. The MKI values are running +6.25Lbs Boost and the MKII running +9Lbs Boost. As can be seen in both Speed and climb there is not an awful lot in it.

Sadly these values are not currently reflected in reflected in game.

Time to Height:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/zulu64/Spit1vspit2clb.jpg

Speeds:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e215/zulu64/Spit1vSpit2.jpg

5./JG27.Farber

06-04-2012, 01:43 PM

Thanks IvanK.

Hey guys, its about historical accuracy which is not just in a name Klem you are quite correct. The thing is that we in 5./JG27 dont fly spits, you can talk about different boosts and fuel and all that but all we know is Daimler Benz and kmh etc... So its hard for us to understand however a graph on speed and climb anyone can understand... Which is why I asked. Ive been looking for them myself this morning and found the same lack of material from 1c.

From what I have heard from red players on this forum, seen some graphs and experienced online, I'd agree with what you saying. We will replace the SpitIa with the II. - However if some patch comes out during the campaign we may have to readdress it for historical purposes just like we have here.

^^

Sven

06-04-2012, 02:52 PM

As I suggested earlier, it will be best to forget about the SpitIa, and replace it with the SpitII completely.
SpitII has got the high altitude advantages and turns very quickly, the 109 climbs better and is faster up until 6k,
but has become more prone to spins and stalling, leading edge slats still not popping out at correct speed.

Reds will have their hands full on destroying bombers, presumably with their slower Hurricanes.
So they will need all the help they can get. I am for keeping the Hurricane/Spit ratio, to at least play a Battle of Britain scenario.

Danelov

06-04-2012, 04:57 PM

Is near incredible to this date to still wait and wait for a decent Spitfire MK I in: a Game of the Battle of Britain! This plane is the symbol of BOB, his presentation card. That´s like a game of the Battle of Trafalgar with a useless "Victory" or a simultation of Apollo XI with a useless Luna Module "Eagle" or a "Red Baron" with a porked DRI . In the limit maybe we can accept something with a secondary plane like the Blenheim or the Fiat Cr.42, but pleeeeeeease with the Spitfire Mk I in a simultation of BOB?

klem

06-05-2012, 11:22 AM

For what its worth I did some quick tests on max speed in the Spitfire MkII, collecting data through a BlackBox script. Chart attached, full results here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=432194&postcount=6

No wonder we cant catch you, we're about 20mph too slow at medium altitude :(

5./JG27.Farber

06-05-2012, 11:58 AM

I did a simular test on the 109, IAS at SL is 460kmh and 420kmh at 5k... Thats at 1.3 Ata not full throttle with boost but theres not a great deal of difference.

I have tracks if anyone wants them.

Osprey

06-05-2012, 12:19 PM

I'll put my neck out here and suggest that the castrated Hurricane be replaced by the Spitfire MkIa. The present Rotol is so poor as to be fodder, it can barely catch the bombers now, and if a human flies the Stuka then I would have my money on the Stuka to win the dogfight

The Spitfire Ia is porked so badly it is a closer match to the RL Hurricane than the Hurricane is, only in game it can turn which the Hurricane cannot - that is also true to RL given that the Hurricane could out turn the Spitfire. So, you have an FM which is a closer match to RL, but you have a plane shape that is totally different - this is the dilemma.

bw_wolverine

06-05-2012, 01:04 PM

I actually don't really care about this bit, to be honest. 401 will be in Hurricanes regardless.

If it's a slaughter, it's a slaughter. I don't think the IIa, the Ia, or anything the Reds have is able to compete with a competently flown 109 right now. The IIa maybe, but only if you catch the other guy unawares or at lower altitude than you.

It's really going to come down to who can position their forces best.

5./JG27.Farber

06-05-2012, 01:18 PM

I'll put my neck out here and suggest that the castrated Hurricane be replaced by the Spitfire MkIa.

It would not be the BoB without the Hurricane, it would be the dance of the spitfire :-P

I think its best we keep the Hurricane. Not all of the blue fighter pilots will be flying 109's, some will be flying 110's.

bw_wolverine

06-05-2012, 02:38 PM

It would not be the BoB without the Hurricane, it would be the dance of the spitfire :-P

I think its best we keep the Hurricane. Not all of the blue fighter pilots will be flying 109's, some will be flying 110's.

There's very little that is BoB about the game currently. At best, it's a weird alternate history version. But let's have some fun with what we have :)

Bring it on.

5./JG27.Farber

06-05-2012, 02:48 PM

There's very little that is BoB about the game currently. At best, it's a weird alternate history version. But let's have some fun with what we have :)

Bring it on.

Very sporting approach Wolverine! Good man ;)

..and dont forget, half of the 109's you face will be out gunned!

Osprey

06-05-2012, 03:44 PM

15 secs versus 1 minute. I see what you are saying in weight per second but that's not a strictly true statement. What really matters is guns on target anyway - I can have 12 hispanos but if my ride is so inferior it can't get it's guns on target then even 1 peashooter is the better option. Still, I might surprise someone, and if the IIa's can keep the 109's occupied then I can bring down 3 bombers no probs. Just be warned, not everyone is as happy to die as Wolverine ;)

Slow down the bombers Farber and don't make them too high. The Hurricane is a dog, 1C personally made sure it was ruined.

5./JG27.Farber

06-05-2012, 03:54 PM

Bf109 E1 has four machine guns, the wing mounted ones dont carry half as much ammo.

Glad you are brining some passion to the fight! It will make it more challenging! ;)

S!

bw_wolverine

06-05-2012, 04:01 PM

I think we all know the issues.

We should treat the campaign as an opportunity to run some nice coordinated squadron action and whatever happens happens.

I want to shoot down the enemy before he gets me as much as the next guy! I'd like to survive this campaign. That's my goal. Shooting down enemy bombers and fighters is secondary objective.

So if I get up to altitude, spot a bomber formation and attack it, drawing 109s onto me, I'll dive or evade as much as possible to get back towards England. If its inevitable that I get shot down, then that's that, but if I can bail out over England and fight another day, well that's one or two 109s that I drew away from the bombers plus I survived.

No kills for me, but I still call it a good contribution.

The statistics page is going to heavily lean towards the Blue I'm afraid. I'm okay with that simply because it really doesn't matter to me with my own personal goals that I feel are achievable with what I have. I will be tracking No.401 performance in this campaign on my own based on my own criteria anyway.

After all, in a war there's never some overarching body that declares the winner at the end of a battle. Both sides make their own conclusions and carry on from there.

EDIT: I will add this though. I think anyone who brags about 'winning' these scenarios or even in dogfight servers is expressing incredibly poor form given the state of the game. I hope that both sides will understand and respect that. No one in historical re-enactments brags about being on the winning side. They're just happy to be able to participate in the event and thankful that there were people portraying the opposing side. So I'm thankful we have human Blue opposition and human Red allies. We all win.

Osprey

06-05-2012, 04:17 PM

In the RAF, 'line shooting' is frowned upon ;)

bw_wolverine

06-05-2012, 04:23 PM

In the RAF, 'line shooting' is frowned upon ;)

Indeed. I wonder if the Luftwaffe had a similar phrase?

5./JG27.Farber

06-05-2012, 05:20 PM

Good post Wolverine. Survival first objective second is also the motto of our Staffel. If they dont survive they dont get anything added to their careers (which only count in these squad vs squad events). So its not about kills - or victories as I prefer to call them but getting the job done with all your body parts intact and a pulse. ;)

bw_wolverine

06-05-2012, 05:51 PM

5./JG27.Farber

06-05-2012, 05:57 PM

Yea but most people agree he was an arogant c***... I mean that in the niciest possible way of course. I dont hate him.

Osprey

06-06-2012, 09:42 AM

Indeed. I wonder if the Luftwaffe had a similar phrase?

They had a similar philosophy, certainly in WW1 when there was more chivalry. I think it was tainted by the Nazi propaganda machine though which needed 'heroes', and some may have taken advantage of this. Marseille for example, 17 kills in a sortie which DAF records don't support? Lies I tell ya!

5./JG27.Farber

06-06-2012, 10:31 AM

They had a similar philosophy, certainly in WW1 when there was more chivalry. I think it was tainted by the Nazi propaganda machine though which needed 'heroes', and some may have taken advantage of this. Marseille for example, 17 kills DURING 3 sorties in one day which DAF records don't support?

Fixed that for you ;)

Osprey

06-06-2012, 11:03 AM

Doesn't matter how many sorties, he never did it or you'd have at least similar records in the DAF showing big losses. Johnnie Johnson was so suspicious of his claims that he went and researched it personally just after the war and being a Group Captain had access to the RAF records. His conclusion was that Marseille and his wingman, who frequently went out alone, made a lot of them up.
Let's face it, it got him promotion, trips out of the war and into Berlin for as many fraulines as he could handle ;) Why wouldn't he?

But I am open to correction on this interesting topic, another thread?

5./JG27.Farber

06-06-2012, 11:55 AM

Or we could just leave it for the historians... ;)

That way I dont have to fish out my massive tome on Marseille and start reading and I really dont have time for that and the campaign. :-P

Osprey

06-06-2012, 01:16 PM

JG27 fanboy.......... ;) Ginger Lacey FTW!

5./JG27.Farber

06-06-2012, 02:11 PM

We picked JG27 because they were in nearly all theatres, not because of Marseille ;) besides, he was in I Gruppe, we are in II Gruppe...

Osprey

06-06-2012, 07:24 PM

Or we could just leave it for the historians... ;)

Forget the historians, this is better :) I always love to hear these chaps talking about their experiences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVTw-WuVes

5./JG27.Farber

06-06-2012, 07:54 PM

As the fine gentlemen explains two pilots can claim the same victory, it happened allot, Ive seen it in the AAR's by our squadron and the stats showed that two had attacked the same only 1 aircraft not 2. All sides over claimed but no one can refute that the German scoring system was the most robust...

I think allot of the over claiming in Africa was due to the lack of personnel on the ground who would have been witnesses had the theatre not been so open and vast. Another theory I have is if an aircraft vanishes over a sandune and the sun reflects and gives a "flash" it would be easy to think he had crashed and exploded.

Theres a brilliant chapter in Mike Spick's book about what actually constitutes a victory... I dont think a victory is as clear cut as the destruction of an aircraft although the airforces of the world certainly did and do think so...

Your a football fan arn't you Osprey...

ATAG_Snapper

06-07-2012, 01:49 AM

The fog of war....further clouded by the fog of 70 years gone by. They were all heroes in my book, on both sides, including the newbie pilots that got shot down on their initial sorties. Both sides also desperately needed to publicize the airmen's achievements to help bolster morale with a war weary public. All to say, what was......was.

Osprey

06-07-2012, 09:32 AM

Your a football fan arn't you Osprey...

http://seeklogo.com/images/C/Crystal_Palace_FC-logo-9CECB4D082-seeklogo.com.gif

5./JG27.Farber

06-07-2012, 09:47 AM

That explains the sabre rattling pre match... :-P

You remind me of this: ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU

Osprey

06-07-2012, 12:40 PM

As much as I like Mitchell he knows absolutely nothing at all about this stuff and what surrounds it. In the past I've been a season ticket holder for several years, lots of away days and even played a few seasons for the supporters club when I was fit enough. One thing I can say is that the game has such a broad spectrum of people who like it, support it and follow it that you just plain don't have single stereotypes. I'm sure David would be disappointed to learn that the groups of fans who do the chanting are very much a minority in a crowd and largely under 30.

JG27 - Come and have a go if you think you're 'ard enough.......... :)

5./JG27.Farber

06-07-2012, 05:04 PM

JG27 - Come and have a go if you think you're 'ard enough.......... :)

Can never quite bring yourself to press that 5 button before JG27 can you. O well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf8fsxX8pLw&feature=related

Osprey

06-08-2012, 07:00 AM

I do, just not all the time.

Just for you though

5./JG27

5./JG27.Farber

06-08-2012, 04:36 PM

Looks like the campaign may be postponed 1 week or at least the aircraft changed for red... Stand by. ;)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32577

ATAG_Dutch

06-08-2012, 04:47 PM

Oh wow. Best of luck with that mate! :lol:

klem

06-08-2012, 07:20 PM

I smell 100 octane :)

ATAG_Snapper

06-08-2012, 07:31 PM

Looks like the campaign may be postponed 1 week or at least the aircraft changed for red... Stand by. ;)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32577

This is an excellent turn of events for your Campaign, Farber. A fitting reward for your hard work on this. Wishing it all falls into place for you!

Jatta Raso

06-09-2012, 03:40 AM

great just great, looks like i'm going in after all :grin:

Osprey

06-09-2012, 08:57 AM

With 100 octane we can beat Jerry. I'm going to give him a black eye!

klem

06-09-2012, 09:45 PM

With 100 octane we can beat Jerry. I'm going to give him a black eye!

As long as he comes down to where its an advantage for us :)

AbortedMan

06-11-2012, 10:07 PM

Am I too late to get in on the campaign with the 401 on red? Been ultra busy with work and finally got a second to get the details of the mission.

I've registered on the SoW forum, just not sure what else to do...

EDIT: Ah, I see someone posted my name as a tentative player on the registration list, thank you. I'll get with my squadron leader to confirm my attendance.

5./JG27.Farber

06-11-2012, 11:00 PM

Everyone already registered please check forums! Aborted Man - your safe. :-P

AbortedMan

06-11-2012, 11:37 PM

Everyone already registered please check forums! Aborted Man - your safe. :-P

Ehhh, safe as in "I'm on the roster" or as in "You're safe because you aren't flying the dangerous skies"? Hoping for the former.

5./JG27.Farber

06-11-2012, 11:50 PM

The former, you reds are a timid bunch arnt you... :-P

AbortedMan

06-12-2012, 01:36 AM

'that the kind of Red you need?...the timid type? ;)

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 01:51 AM

Upto you, Loss of red fighters vs blue bombers... Your call...

wannabetheace

06-12-2012, 02:42 AM

The former, you reds are a timid bunch arnt you... :-P

Same here can I get in as reds :)

edit:
registered on forum http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/login
as Ystreb=Giap69=

AbortedMan

06-12-2012, 03:24 AM

Upto you, Loss of red fighters vs blue bombers... Your call...

That was a missed Inglorious Basterds reference.

See you on your 6!

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 11:03 AM

Same here can I get in as reds :)

edit:
registered on forum http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/login
as Ystreb=Giap69=

Sorry both teams are full :(

That was a missed Inglorious Basterds reference.

See you on your 6!

Ah, not seen it. Too busy building campaigns :rolleyes:

Osprey

06-12-2012, 12:36 PM

Farbs, surely the squadrons are entered and the actual pilots can vary?? One week Robo might not make it but Wedge can. Also, I put in 6 as an average but we may be 8 or we may be 4 on a given day. And finally, to confuse the Hun even more, we are ACG and operate 3 squadrons in our umbrella, therefore 401 may be short but 501 over. :)

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 01:03 PM

Theres 46 Reds and 56 blues (including 9 bomber pilots)

During the server tests we only had around 40 people on the server, it seemed fine and on the 2nd occasion nobody had any problems. We have set a limit of 99 for playability client side. We must stick to the plan or it will spiral out of control - too many cooks spoil the broth! I think you wont see a complete and full turn out everyweek but imagine if we do and you can't get in because we just let to many people sign up, you would be very disapointed. Potentially right now, if everyone turns up who is correctly registered 3 people wont be able to get in... I dont want to go over the server limit and have annoyed people breathing down my kneck, sending me PMs and emails etc...

Just make sure your guys know that if they dont attend they weaken your side! To just "see how many turn up on the day" is not really an option, its far too much administrational work. I already have a problem in that since my Staffel was registered 3 weeks ago Ive had two new recruits, hence I may not have enough slots for my own guys, So I may have to turn my own pilots away on a match day so I dont exceed my quota.

The campaign is full and sign up is closed.

On another note tomorrow is wednesday. Possible the patch we have all been waiting for may appear in the final days of this week... However we all know that the devs promise things that take longer to appear and change their internal Schedule more times than we change our underware (I assume you guys change yours everyday aswell...) Therefore:

If the patch is out tomorrow we will start on 17th. If it is not out tomorrow we will start on the 24th. If we start on the 24th we will still host a mission but it will not be one you be flying in the campaign.

Osprey

06-12-2012, 01:53 PM

Hmmmm. I put in an average as asked and I was conservative with it. Had I known we had fixed names I would've just put in more.

I am understanding that it is fixed names?

EDIT: You mentioned Quota. OK, so we have a quota (501, 401 & 64 - we are all ACG pilots but with sub-tags). I don't have a problem with turning my guys away if we exceed that - we can handle that internally in ACG. I just want to confirm that if one week 501 have only 5 guys and 401 have 7 then one of theirs can take our slot that's all. I can see you just don't want things screwed up as a total and that's understandable.

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 02:08 PM

The list as I have explained before is so that the appropriate permissions can be set, for example, axis, allies, allied squadron leader, axis staffelkapitan. This is so they can view the correct parts of the forums and so that only leaders can discuss things in the officers forum for red and blue respectivley.

It is an administerial check list for permissions.

For numbers in the server its up to that squadron leader to ensure he has not exceeded his quota and is taking up slots intended for other people.

This brings me back once again to what I was explaining before, the campaign was designed around 99 players. We have 103 people saying they are comming to each mission. We all know that some will not attend, surely this number will be greater than 4% which we are hoping for so no one gets left out. I expect the actual non attendance to be around 20% minimum. I am sure Osprey there will be enough room for everyone. ;)

EDIT to your edit. Yes as long as the "swapping" does not get out of hand its fine.

bw_wolverine

06-12-2012, 04:12 PM

I'm having all of my potential pilots register on the campaign website and we will fly six pilots for any given mission based on who is available on the day.

I'm basically assuming that No.401 has 6 spots reserved. As long as my pilots are all registered, it doesn't really matter which 6 guys we put in the air, just that we can't put up 7.

I'm fine with that because I'm certain not all of our pilots will be able to attend every mission. So we should always have five or six in the air.

When I gave my 6 average, it wasn't based on how many would sign up, it was based on how many we'd actually have arrive on the day.

AbortedMan

06-12-2012, 04:21 PM

May I ask what the '+' in front of the names is for?

Is it for 'backup' pilot or 'public/tagalong' pilot?

bw_wolverine

06-12-2012, 04:32 PM

May I ask what the '+' in front of the names is for?

Is it for 'backup' pilot or 'public/tagalong' pilot?

I'm assuming it's backup, or registered and ready to fly in case of a no-show from the squadron.

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 04:57 PM

The + indicates a pilot over the amount originally stated. Just ignore it ;)

Ive recounted, I got the figures wrong, I had counted SL'ers twice in some Squadrons. My fault but this works out well.

Blues have 49 out of 45+9. Reds have 48 out of 45.

Totalling 97 Players with 100% turn out.

REDS: 7+8+8+6+3+13+3 =48 (including Aborted Man :-P )
BLUES: 14+3+8+8+7+6+4 =50

TOTAL RED & BLUE 98/99 With 1 Spare blue places.

P.S. Everyone got a PM on SoWC about the start date so please pass the word.

ATAG_MajorBorris

06-12-2012, 05:15 PM

How daft am I...

I didnt realise registration was over allready:evil:

Well, I hope you guys are having fun!

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 05:16 PM

Sorry Borris,

I tried to get hold of you :( I know you have been very interested in flying in our campaign for a long time.

Osprey

06-12-2012, 05:39 PM

Excellent Farber, that's what I thought originally, that's fine.

I'm basically assuming that No.401 has 6 spots reserved. As long as my pilots are all registered, it doesn't really matter which 6 guys we put in the air, just that we can't put up 7.

You'd be fine to put in 7 if 501 only had 5 though. ACG have 18 red and 6 blue, though blue are isolated.

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 05:47 PM

Just activated 3 accounts. (2 were accounted for, 1 not.) - Osprey :) I take it you've had some new recruits, Ive had two recently also. We will have to take care not to exceed our quotas.

So there we are, at 99. :rolleyes:

Not to worry, when did you ever get 100% attendance from 99 people?

bw_wolverine

06-12-2012, 08:01 PM

Thanks Farber. Got a little confusing there near the end :)

I've informed the pilots of the situation. Looking forward the event.

S!

AbortedMan

06-12-2012, 08:11 PM

Thanks for the quick action on my late request, the both of yas.

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 08:18 PM

Thanks Farber. Got a little confusing there near the end :)

I've informed the pilots of the situation. Looking forward the event.

S!

Tell me about it, maybe it gives everyone an insight and apprciation of the involvement my team and I are putting into this campaign for the community... ;)

bw_wolverine

06-12-2012, 09:24 PM

Tell me about it, maybe it gives everyone an insight and apprciation of the involvement my team and I are putting into this campaign for the community... ;)

Having attempted a few smaller scale events myself, I have an idea of the kind of work you guys must be putting in on this and, believe me, it is very much appreciated.

5./JG27.Farber

06-12-2012, 10:20 PM

Dont thank us just yet, server might implode?! :-P

wannabetheace

06-13-2012, 01:40 AM

that's fine, maybe I was slow :) have fun guys!

Osprey

06-13-2012, 07:52 AM

I think building the maps, setting up a server and website are an indication of some of the efforts required Farbs, looking forward to it! :)

I did tons for USL for about 3 or 4 years straight, mostly making intricate maps and testing them, it IS a lot of unseen work that many take for granted unfortunately.

David198502

06-15-2012, 01:34 PM

JG26 question:
is it still possible, that new recruits will take part in the campaign, who are not yet registered?
as it is, JG26 is continually growing, and the result is now, that we have at least 2 members, who didnt register for the campaign yet.
will it possible for them to fly with us in the campaign?

5./JG27.Farber

06-15-2012, 02:39 PM

5./JG27 has the same problem Im afraid. I will have to keep to the official line, "dont exceed your quota!". ;)

You can register them but ^

adonys

06-15-2012, 03:12 PM

I'm interested in playing this as an axis player.

5./JG27.Farber

06-15-2012, 05:59 PM

I'm interested in playing this as an axis player.

We would love to have you but its full Im afraid. Sorry. :(

JG52Krupi

06-17-2012, 06:07 PM

Cannot connect due to password bug.

5./JG27.Farber

06-17-2012, 08:05 PM

Follow password tutorial ;)

Robo.

06-17-2012, 08:39 PM

All good here, thanks for all your hard work guys.

salmo

06-17-2012, 08:58 PM

I'm disappointed. Got up at 05.30am on a Monday morning hoping to squeeze into a vacant allied slot (or at least listen in on TS) only to find no server online, no-one on TS & game over :( First post in this thread says battle was scheduled for "8pm European time (To Be Confirmed) 17th June 2012". I converted this to 06.00am Monday in Eastern Australian time, assuming 'European time' meant GMT.

This morning I find a late post at SOW forums (posted while I was alseep) saying time is "TONIGHT 17/06/2012 START TIME 2pm Eastern/7pm UK/8pm Euro Password for 17/06/2012 is .... "

Looks like battle was really about 04.00am on a Monday morning Aussie time (GMT+10) :( Good luck to the Euro & US pilots playing this series, those in the Oceania timezones are left out yet again.

5./JG27.Farber

06-17-2012, 08:59 PM

Real thing next week! Glad it was ok. Stats are up at SoWC. Usual stat bug bears so dont whine. I scored two victories but it gave one to a JU88 for example... ;)

Also no despawn script so if you dont dont down it, it wont be a kill... If it gets back to base and lands, its safe!

5./JG27.Farber

06-17-2012, 09:01 PM

I'm disappointed. Got up at 05.30am on a Monday morning hoping to squeeze into a vacant allied slot (or at least listen in on TS) only to find no server online, no-one on TS & game over :(

First post says battle was scheduled for "8pm European time (To Be Confirmed) 17th June 2012". I converted this to 06.00am Monday in Eastern Australian time. Looks like it was really about 04.00am Aussie time :(

Sorry to hear that Salmo but I never converted the time to Oz, so you only have yourself to blame mate... The server was started at 8pm Euro...

salmo

06-17-2012, 09:31 PM

There were discussions early on about trying to adjust start-time to accomodate Oceania pilots, which has apparently not come to fruition. The battle is scheduled for the convenience of UK/Euro/US pilots only. Again, GL to all pilots flying in this battle, you won't find any Aussie or New Zealanders, or any of the Oceania timezone pilots joining you, since battle-start is 4am Monday morning for us. I hope that future battles can be scheduled to include as many of the comminuty as possible.

5./JG27.Farber

06-17-2012, 11:25 PM

Sorry Salmo and Oz/NZ pilots. Our aim was to try and accomidate them! However our server admin works saturday adn with the work he has put in to not allow him to take part really would be a shame...

I totally sympathise with OZ/NZ players who as English speakers are seperated by time and often left out of campaigns and special fixures. Sorry for any inconvience or dismay this may have caused.

Salmo have you ever considered setting up a group with OZ/NZ pilots in mind- red and blue? You would have our full support and we could even supply you with missions etc... ;)

bw_wolverine

06-17-2012, 11:44 PM

There was some confusion about the time of the mission this weekend if you weren't on the forums or checking regularly. A few of my guys ended up joining late or not at all. We'll sort out a better way to keep everyone informed.

The bigger issue was the single digit frame rates when getting engaged with the enemy. I'm hopeful that it won't play out that way during the campaign. It seemed to get the worst when we had bombers and enemy fighters in the same area.

5./JG27.Farber

06-17-2012, 11:47 PM

bw_wolverine

06-18-2012, 03:55 AM

The time was my fault! -although I did make a post and send everyone a PM!

The mission was an extreme example! Although most people reported positive results!

S! :-P

Got reports from pretty much every Red flier on coms about the frames. It was positive in that it didn't crash ;) We'll see if it gets that bad next Sunday.

Osprey

06-18-2012, 08:02 AM

Yes it didn't crash but frames were <1 in the big mash-up. I don't know if blues had the same thing because they seemed to be getting hits on target. Once the main group had broken up then frames were fine.

Question though. At the scramble bases in the map will all squadrons be available? What I mean is that I can choose #501 as the squadron from any of the bases. We need the codes when forming up.

5./JG27.Farber

06-18-2012, 08:23 AM

Yes.

Did you all restart your machines before the battle or had they been on all day? I was getting about 25 frames minimum during the raid by the 27 Ju88's... It was bearable.

_79_dev

06-18-2012, 10:03 AM

All those fps drops were caused by bombers leaking fuel and coolant. Smoke behind theme is just frame killer so You have to have rally good hardware to survive furballs like that with no fps drop. That was only for test purpose, and there will not be 40+ contacts around You during campaign. Hoping for patch next week, or new graphics card and RAM.

5./JG27.Farber

06-18-2012, 10:19 AM

Osprey and Wolverine what are your system specs?

Osprey

06-18-2012, 10:23 AM

We were the first group in to attack them and there were no leaks at that point. It seemed to be a pure numbers problem.

I have a good rig Farber, i5 2500k and 560Ti twin frozr.

_79_dev

06-18-2012, 10:43 AM

We were the first group in to attack them and there were no leaks at that point. It seemed to be a pure numbers problem.

I have a good rig Farber, i5 2500k and 560Ti twin frozr.

That is mid set Osprey, it's ok but not "good". Bombers could be shoot by artillery as well. Anyway it's the game problem not server.

5./JG27.Farber

06-18-2012, 11:39 AM

I had to roll my drivers back 2 years to get what I have now... :rolleyes: Lets hope official Grail patch arrives Friday...

Osprey

06-18-2012, 03:21 PM

That is mid set Osprey, it's ok but not "good". Bombers could be shoot by artillery as well. Anyway it's the game problem not server.

Dev, it's not a mid set, it's high end. It may be for this game though since anyone with a real 'mid set' can't actually play - I always buy just off the top and I'm not due an upgrade for a little while. The 560Ti is ranked 18th at the moment - 3DMark performance is 75% of the GTX680 - the present leader. The i5 2500k is (perhaps was now) the fastest retail chip in the World when OC'd. I'd hate to think what you consider obsolete ;)

Other than that yes, it's a game problem.

_79_dev

06-18-2012, 03:51 PM

Osprey, pleas mate don't argue for no reason. If someone ask You about spec be more specific, maybe then someone will poit Your problem. If You say I5 2500k and GeForce560 that means medium range system. What about rest? Motherboard chipset(at least x58 is high end), RAM frequency voltage and timing, processor speed and temperatures, your Is Your gtx 560 1GB VRam or what 3GB vRAM is minimum for high end spec, What is Your hard drive speed, maybe SSD? How is Your system healthy, drivers, windows registry? Game resolution? If You had High end spec 6 months ago, You have to add 500euros today to have it high end. Send Your full spec then I can help You.

P.S just move that discussion to Technical threads section. This thread is about campaign, not technical problems...

Chromius

06-19-2012, 02:13 PM

People, the issue is the same regardless of the server or ping. See the thread on the fastest public us based server ATAG, they have the same issues. Not a lot to do with the server.

ATAG stutters

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32222

I always flew bombers in IL-2 and have been giving the Bf-110 a try and the multi engines flying in groups cause all types of issues never mind there are some issues with the damage effects causing even more pauses and stutters intermittently.

When I was living in NZ and playing IL-2 on a US server I had a 150-200 or so ping, yet my frame rates where fine and lag was not a huge issue.

Even with the new graphics of Clod we should be able to tune our video settings for sp or mp for whatever FPS you like, (me im happy with 30+ some want 50-60) and always have a satisfactory experience. The server ping or speed is not really the issue. (though a higher ping will cause lag but not these freeze ups.)

The issue is still Clod MP is broken. So lets hope they fix it one day so we can experience the simulation we purchased working as intended.

Peace.

Osprey

06-19-2012, 04:37 PM

_79_dev

06-19-2012, 06:13 PM

I asked You nicely Osprey, Farber has minor knowledge about computers, just tried to help. Now I see that You are just posting something for no reason. I am just going to ignor it from now on...

5./JG27.Farber

06-19-2012, 07:08 PM

Osprey, Vogler does actually know allot more than me. :oops:

Anyway, lets not get bogged down with who thinks what. Thats not the point of the campaign, its to fight in the air, not on the forums!

Lets leave it in the air ;)

bw_wolverine

06-20-2012, 01:29 AM

Osprey and Wolverine what are your system specs?

intel i7 940 processor (http://ark.intel.com/products/37148/Intel-Core-i7-940-Processor-(8M-Cache-2_93-GHz-4_80-GTs-Intel-QPI))
12gb ram (http://www.corsair.com/memory-by-product-family/vengeance/vengeance-12gb-triple-channel-ddr3-memory-kit-cmz12gx3m3a1600c9.html)
eVGA 580 GTX w/ 1.5 gb ram
Game running from OCZ Vertex 2 SSD
Cable internet connection at 28mbps down, 1mbps up
Windows 7 Pro
Hardware sound (CL x-fi)
TrackIR 5

I don't have bad hardware. My rig is probably one of the better ones playing and I have worked on it to make sure it runs nice and lean. I had one of the better pings on the server too (not that that really matters anymore) and my connection is very stable.

Sorry for the late reply.

Like I said before. Hopefully it won't be as bad on the day. It would be very interesting to have everyone take note of their lowest and highest frame rates during the mission. I doubt the issue is a red/blue one and that everyone will get the slowdowns we saw if they are engaging the same way we are.

Keep in mind: the RAF fighters are going to be aiming towards the bomber formations for their attacks. Luftwaffe fighters don't have to do that. If the frames get bad pointing in that direction, they can just wait a second and engage when the RAF fighter comes away from the bombers. It's unfortunate, but that is a sort of advantage.

But who cares. I just want to try this and get flying in a real Battle of Britain situation with real pilots involved. I'm tired of having to choose between playing against humans on dogfight servers or AI in BoB situations.

Roll on Sunday...though it's unfortunate also that the England/Italy fixture is that day :P Hmmm choices....

5./JG27.Farber

06-20-2012, 07:06 AM

Roll on Sunday...though it's unfortunate also that the England/Italy fixture is that day :P Hmmm choices....

I know what Ill be choosing and it wont be men from all four corners of the Earth wearing England shirts... :-P

Osprey

06-20-2012, 07:27 AM

Sorry, just don't appreciate someone telling me my system is lower spec than it is just because some people have enough cash to blow on quad 680's. Had I supplied a dxdiag and output from perfmon you couldn't have told me anything else from that. It's more than enough for the game max'd out 19x12, the game is failing, not my machine.

England won last night topping the group which means the next match is 1945 on Sunday :( Even though I would die pretty much straight away anyway I'm not missing the match, my apologies in advance.

5./JG27.Farber

06-20-2012, 07:37 AM

What time is the game on? I looked it up but all I can find out is its England V Germany and its in Brazil and Starts at 10am ET... WTF is ET? :rolleyes:

macro

06-20-2012, 09:17 AM

England are playing italy 7.45pm uk time sunda so will miss the first one :(
Also the final is the sunday after so will miss it then too if england make it............ So should be around lol

Osprey

06-20-2012, 09:38 AM

The Final is on the Sunday? Crazy! ET = Extra Time, ie the match went into ET.

Something else Farber, Duxford Flying Legends is also Sunday 1st July. I won't get home until late, nor will some others I suspect. This sucks, been waiting god knows how long for this and now miss the first 2 weeks! :cry: This must be the most frustrating game ever made :bashheadagainstwallhard:

5./JG27.Farber

06-20-2012, 03:55 PM

Yea so the football should in all likleness be over by this sunday for England fans, German fans will miss out though. :-P

macro

06-20-2012, 04:51 PM

Yea so the football should in all likleness be over by this sunday for England fans, German fans will miss out though. :-P

or "they think its all over"

eh? :grin:

Osprey

06-20-2012, 05:09 PM

I'm starting to wonder about Farber's national loyalties.......:rolleyes:

5./JG27.Farber

06-20-2012, 06:18 PM

I'm starting to wonder about Farber's national loyalties.......:rolleyes:

National lo... What? :confused:

Lets not even have this discussion. ;)

phoenix1963

06-20-2012, 06:23 PM

I'd only scape up two of us that evening.

56RAF_phoenix

5./JG27.Farber

06-21-2012, 09:48 PM

I'd only scape up two of us that evening.

56RAF_phoenix

You'll be fine :-P

dnr

06-25-2012, 02:09 AM

Great effort today guys. I could sense a new dynamic among the squadrons just in knowing we had over sixty pilots engaged in one mission. There was certainly a buzz over the Teamspeak Comms seeing so many Spits and Hurricanes warming up and taxiing across the airfield to take off. We will continue to work on our formation flying and tactics within 401 Sqn and hopefully improve inter Sqn coordination as well.

Suggestion next time send the slower Hurricanes our first, Spits can catch up and still provide cover. By the time we got on station our "cover" had already engaged the Ju 87s so when we got there the 109s were waiting. Better show next time.

I also think that those who rack up quick scores early will have a lot more to loose in the coming weeks so the more aggressive among us who seem untouchable now, my not be so quick in the weeks ahead if they stand to loose it all on one bad call. Should be interesting to see this play out.

Many thanks to all of you who have worked very hard to build and maintain the forum, created the missions and manage the server, programming, and database management. Cheers!

bw_wolverine

06-25-2012, 04:02 AM

David198502

06-25-2012, 06:12 AM

ok...for the JG26 it was a really bad start with the campaign, unfortunately.
yesterday there were 5 of us.we all were punctually.then trying to connect, one of us got this server fail authentification message(i remember having this a month or so ago, where you tested your server)
it was JG26_Hessle, he just couldnt connect.he tried plenty of times with no joy.
so only 4 of us were left.
then when finally the mission began, we saw only JG27 airfields, but we took the one i was given in the forum, the far left in C6/7 i think.
we all spawned, and there were already other squads on the airfield taking of like crazy over the taxi ways.i feared, that one of those "lunatics":grin:
would finally crash into us, but in the end, we all lined up with the runway and took off.
but it didnt matter anyway, because after we went out for the channel following our course, suddenly three of us had a launcher crash in the exact same moment.:evil:
it happened approximately 15min after take off.i was really pissed of, as the one left of our squad,JG26_Pitti, had contacts and a good fight with hurris only 2min later.
really frustrating experience yesterday

Osprey

06-25-2012, 08:55 AM

I enjoyed the flight however was dismayed to find that although we got to the ships in good time we were already too late. The radar had already plotted EA's heading south over Le Harve. We (501 and 56) circled for about 20 mins hoping for some targets (our only way to score) only to be massacred by 109's.

I don't know how the map was built but I was under the impression that bombers would be escorted and would arrive at a time which could be engaged. How long from the start of the mission where the bombers on their way in? And were they airstarted? I assume some timings were checked on the map, so how was this done? If it were a straight scramble then that won't work in game, we need far more time to connect, spawn and sort out our general amateurishness in order to have a chance of engagement.

5./JG27.Farber

06-25-2012, 09:20 AM

Glad 401 enjoyed it. :-P

JG26, Sorry to hear you had launcher crashes. My wingman who has been working tirelessly with me on tactics and teamwork also had a CTD. 5 of our group turned up 1 hour late aswell :(
There is a tutorial on the SoWC for inputting the password because it causes "server fail authentification" which either goes away after several minutes or not until the server restarts. We cant restart the server for one person.

Osprey,
You had 46 minutes. The Ju87's airspawned after 10 mins and took 36 minutes to be on top of target.

ATAG_MajorBorris

06-25-2012, 10:01 AM

I was busy till 4:00pm cst, could I have still flown the campaign?

dnr

06-25-2012, 10:50 AM

Ack 36 minutes to bomber attack, but like some of you we were still sitting on the ground fifteen minutes after start (my launcher crashed at 13 minutes but that's a problem on my end due to wireless connection issues).

That's not a programming or scenario problem, that's a coordination issue in trying to get multiple sqns out of an unfamiliar airfield. As I said, we will improve our coordination, tactics not withstanding.

5./JG27.Farber

06-25-2012, 11:16 AM

10 mins into mission they airspawned, they then flew for 36 mins until over target. Thats 46 mins ;)

Osprey

06-25-2012, 01:59 PM

Osprey,
You had 46 minutes. The Ju87's airspawned after 10 mins and took 36 minutes to be on top of target.

That's really interesting because we started on time right? 1900, and the football was on at 1945, of which I missed the first 2.5 mins. Did we start late? If I could be bothered I'd ask for the maps and trial run it out of curiosity :rolleyes:.

DNR is correct, getting up was a nightmare even with comms and discipline, we didn't know where to go on the airfield and we had some guys just not used to it. This is excellent practice, but obviously if we were at our home fields that we know well then we'd be away quite a lot quicker.

JTDawg

06-25-2012, 03:21 PM

All in all 71st had a good time. Out of 12 slots ,11 showed (1 was hour late no. 12 lol) 1 shot down, an 1 ctd . How many bombers were really in the air? Salute cya next week thanks for the hard work,.

SG1_Mino

06-25-2012, 05:11 PM

5./JG27.Farber

06-25-2012, 05:14 PM

You also bailed out Osprey, I didnt get back for 70 mins. However I didnt intend to watch the footy. Getting off the gorund quickl is something we practice quite allot at 5./JG27, simply for this reason ;)

JTDawg, thanks, there were only 9 Ju87's (plus players?) in total and also at least 4 bf110 (all players). Good interception by 71st ;)

phoenix1963

06-25-2012, 06:34 PM

5./JG27.Farber

06-25-2012, 06:41 PM

It was a small raid, Jerry caught you off guard ;)

I was busy till 4:00pm cst, could I have still flown the campaign?

Dont know, It started at 2Eastern.

bw_wolverine

06-25-2012, 07:50 PM

In RL we'd be flying a standing protection patrol over a convoy, not reacting to a radar report of a buildup of bombers (=airstart).
That would give much better opportunity to react appropriately.

56RAF_phoenix

This is the thing.

Maybe the bombers shouldn't airstart, but rather start on the ground. Is that an issue with the mission builder?

I agree, getting off the ground quickly is very important. However, when you spawn all over the g'damn airfield with multiple squadrons, getting sorted out isn't a matter of 'JUST GO GO GO!'. Even if we'd been clockwork in it, we still wouldn't have had the last squadron in the air until 15 to 20 minutes in.

I'm going to recommend we have each squadron taking off from its own airfield to eliminate a bit of the 'I'm to your left...past the 501 guy... no let him go first...who's that spitfire? get moving, will ya?' etc.

5./JG27.Farber

06-25-2012, 08:21 PM

That part of the map is difficult as there isnt much room. Especially to the South. I really think MG should have given us more room in France. 60 miles NW of London to 60 miles South of Paris and all the way East to the tip of Holland.

Right now for the other technical bit. You could have 9 bombers as part of a group (9 is max for a bomber flight) take off at the same time however they wouldnt fly well together and would be miles apart. Those Stuka, I can't make them each attack ther own ship. I had to make each Kette (3) attack a ship... The other alternative is to make each Stuka its own flight and have them attack a seperate ship... Then what you would have had is 9 Stuka flying in a massive stretched out conga line... :rolleyes:

Imagine the nightmare of synchronising 3 bomber groups to one formation from either the same airfield or different ones?! - Basically impossible. Hence airspawn out of sight of players is the best option. Also the time stamp on a way point is pretty basic. Its smallest unit is the minute, meaning it could be :01 or :59 seconds of that minute... You can fly along way in a minute when your ment to be in a tight formation.

So yes there are limits... It would nice if you could create an "air group" and said go here, then there and these are your tagets X, Y and Z. Then the air group could assign individual aircraft to targets depending on losses or prioity... But you cant :(

Another thing to point out is that the Stuka airspawn on TTime 10 mins into the mission at 500 metres before climbing to altitude. They started at the edge of the map to the South.

As for Airbases the RAF for some reason just didnt use as many as the Germans. Shame we dont have the Gladiator for the fleet air arm... Another Red base was opened on the Red side on request.

David198502

06-26-2012, 02:57 AM

This is the thing.

Maybe the bombers shouldn't airstart, but rather start on the ground. Is that an issue with the mission builder?

I agree, getting off the ground quickly is very important. However, when you spawn all over the g'damn airfield with multiple squadrons, getting sorted out isn't a matter of 'JUST GO GO GO!'. Even if we'd been clockwork in it, we still wouldn't have had the last squadron in the air until 15 to 20 minutes in.

I'm going to recommend we have each squadron taking off from its own airfield to eliminate a bit of the 'I'm to your left...past the 501 guy... no let him go first...who's that spitfire? get moving, will ya?' etc.

thats true!i would prefer to take off from our JG26 home base at Audembert as well, and be the only squad with this homebase.
this way, we could at least make sure, that nobody is taking off on the taxiways...

Osprey

06-26-2012, 09:34 AM

I don't understand the bail out suggestion posed to me. I bailed out because I was dying in the pit, you can check the stats for that. Once I B/O I disconnected, I don't see why I would need to hang around.

Regarding the mapping I am a little concerned that our target were 2 Bf110's and a small Stuka raiding party - that pretty much makes it impossible to win the campaign because there aren't targets for us although we are targets ourselves (and the Hurricane is a death trap). Historically speaking the RAF ignored 'bait' like that and only came up for the big raids because they didn't want to waste pilots. The moral, big raids in one place please, just like in real life :)

Farbs, you can make squadrons follow each other so building a big raid should be a problem. Also, the whole squadron will not go for the same target if there are plently of targets about, so if you put in lots of ships and have the squadron attack the middle one then they should all attack the other ships too. Failing that try 'attack area'. At the end of the day the ships don't matter to either side so who cares if they don't attack or attack on ship anyway?

5./JG27.Farber

06-26-2012, 11:57 AM

I don't understand the bail out suggestion posed to me. I bailed out because I was dying in the pit, you can check the stats for that. Once I B/O I disconnected, I don't see why I would need to hang around.

Its an old bug from IL2 1946. If your plane is going to crash and is out of control or you bail out you have to wait until the aircarft and pilot touch the ground. This way it has more chance of showing on the stats. ;)

Regarding the mapping I am a little concerned that our target were 2 Bf110's and a small Stuka raiding party - that pretty much makes it impossible to win the campaign because there aren't targets for us although we are targets ourselves (and the Hurricane is a death trap). Historically speaking the RAF ignored 'bait' like that and only came up for the big raids because they didn't want to waste pilots. The moral, big raids in one place please, just like in real life :)

Farbs, you can make squadrons follow each other so building a big raid should be a problem. Also, the whole squadron will not go for the same target if there are plently of targets about, so if you put in lots of ships and have the squadron attack the middle one then they should all attack the other ships too. Failing that try 'attack area'. At the end of the day the ships don't matter to either side so who cares if they don't attack or attack on ship anyway?

I cant make anyone fly how you want but dont worry, if you like big raids you are going to love some of the missions I picked. I had to scale one mission down twice because it kept crashing the FMB. It was 90 Ju88's, I scaled it down to 54 and then again. Then I also had to half their bomb load as that too was crashing my FMB.

I thought once the selected target was destroyed the others would not bother. Also the ships were not statics, they were moving targets. Using bomb area would have been sh£ty, especially with dive bombers.

Anyway for all its worth and if you care to score it, the blues are only slightly in the lead. Nothing that cant be reversed. ;)

Robo.

07-01-2012, 07:40 PM

Great fun today. Not sure if it was just me but my game was a sli de sh ow in a massive engagement with the emeny. Good stuff, keep it up guys.

JTDawg

07-01-2012, 08:29 PM

Great fun today. Not sure if it was just me but my game was a sli de sh ow in a massive engagement with the emeny. Good stuff, keep it up guys.

Yes same here all 71st had same issue , Keep up the hard work salute!!

klem

07-01-2012, 09:03 PM

Spent a lot of time keeping altitude against expected bombers before deciding there weren't any and got stuck intO the 109s low over Dover.

Felt better about the Hurricane but hard to put my finger on why.

109 eventually got my elevator and ailerons. Ditched :(

Thanks guys. Looking forward to the next one.

5./JG27 Lehmann

07-01-2012, 09:16 PM

Had a lot of fun too. Didn't experience any lag whatsoever apart from a half-second freeze on finals.

Klem, I was the 109 that climbed away south after putting some holes into Rumba, you made a bit of a mess of my right wing on the way back up, S!

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/542931587921665174/BC374A4BC61CACC8CFC7E5DA491BA346FD12E65A/

klem

07-02-2012, 01:13 PM

Had a lot of fun too. Didn't experience any lag whatsoever apart from a half-second freeze on finals.

Klem, I was the 109 that climbed away south after putting some holes into Rumba, you made a bit of a mess of my right wing on the way back up, S!

I clearly remember hitting your right wing and I think I hit you two other times, once around the tail. Not much damage though is there :(

I'm glad they've got the DeWilde hit splats working again. Not sure about the tracers, they look a bit too much like those pearly strings you get from AAA, perhaps they are too large? Not sure, I'll have to think about that.

notafinger!

07-02-2012, 01:58 PM

Not sure about the tracers, they look a bit too much like those pearly strings you get from AAA, perhaps they are too large? Not sure, I'll have to think about that.

I'm not a fan of the new tracers, especially when flying red. They are very distracting now and after some testing I don't feel they are showing the correct point of impact. I think I'll be going back to my no tracer loadout.

I'm curious to hear what red pilots thought about the performance of the 100 octane variants. It's very important these are tested as they should be the exclusive fighter type for online play with the Spit Ia & 109 being a very close match. The community fought so long & hard to get these models included so it's disappointing to see them being used so little on ATAG.

ATAG_Snapper

07-02-2012, 03:31 PM

I've flown the Ia-100 octane and IIa online (ATAG Server) for a couple of patrol sorties at 18,000 feet between Dover and Dungeness (the "English point"). Got in a couple of dogfights with 109's at various altitudes and situations. However, my observations would be purely anecdotal with no data, charts, or graphs to support them. Also, a couple of random engagements are hardly enough to form any opinion or conclusion, and certainly subject to change as I fly 'em more. But, here's my initial thoughts:

1) Ia -- at first blush, disappointed. Going "through the gate" seemed to produce more noise and vibration, but little increase in performance. Using the overboost at 3000 rpms produced, after an estimated 30 seconds, a lot of oil on the windscreen when I tried, unsuccessfully, to outclimb a zooming 109 (he had energy advantage on the zoom). The Ia at 2650 rpms and 6.5 lbs boost felt "heavy" and slow to climb to patrol height (50% fuel load). To anyone, though, I'd be the first to say Your Mileage May Vary. It's never a good idea to do what I did, though: go straight into an online combat environment without first "wringing out" a modded plane to get a solid idea of what it can/cannot do. I didn't win any victories over the 109's I engaged, but felt lucky to escape with a few holes and streaming glycol.

2) IIa -- felt like a different plane altogether. At 6.5 lbs/2650 rpms/50% fuel was able to climb ~3000 fpm at 180 mph IAS to 18,000 feet. Felt "nimble & spirited" at all engine settings. At sea level at full boost (no ammo) was able to keep ahead for full Channel crossing of 109E4, neither gaining nor giving ground. This was observed by two fellow Spits flying high above that bounced and ultimately splashed my target-fixated pursuer (which is how I know it was an E4!) The needle was bouncing, but quick glances showed ~280 IAS at sea level at full overboost (12 lbs now?). I engaged in 4 individual dogfights with 109's at relatively high altitudes (est 15 - 18K feet). In each case we spotted the other at roughly the same time. I felt from co-energy/co-alt encounters the 109 had the edge in climb, but not so much that I felt frustrated as in countless times with the earlier patch. Not the same advantage as the 1.59590 "retail patch" where the uber-IIa can charge up the hill to overtake a climbing 109. Playing the angles there's enough power to keep in the fight: dodging the tracer streams and getting a few shots in myself. I never achieved what I felt were out 'n out victories. In each case the 109's dove away streaming white smoke, and I never followed them down. Much later I was credited with 1.00 kills, but I never saw the aircraft actually crash. I suspect they each made it back and I got the so-called "kill" when they despawned, or they simply ditched in order to respawn immediately. Dunno.

So, my first thoughts are that the IIa (in my incompetent hands) is roughly the equal of the 109; the Ia is badly lacking in oomph. But I hasten to add I need more time in the Ia to fully assess it, properly.

ATAG_Colander

07-02-2012, 07:56 PM

Great read Snapper. I've been waiting for some info from the "red" side.
So, all and all, is the IIa up to expectations or there's still something missing?

I can tell that the 109 is about the same as before with two exceptions:
1.- The rudder is not as "touchy" as with the previous beta
2.- It now goes from a turn to a flat spin without any warning in between, however, it's either easier to recover (i.e 1000m against 4000m before) or I learned how to do it :)

ATAG_Colander

5./JG27.Farber

07-02-2012, 09:12 PM

Eh>?

The 109 Rudder is better and the 109 always talks to you before the stall which you can now get out of with out 2000m's of falling.

Were not using the Spit IIa in our campaign since we changed to the 100 octane variants. There seem to be no complants yet so they must be ok (except starting them).

ATAG_Snapper

07-02-2012, 09:45 PM

My initial impression is that BOTH the 109 and the IIa are too slow at sea level, but by roughly the same amount. Personally, I wouldn't want the IIa any faster unless the 109's speed was adjusted upward to its historical value as well. Besides wanting the IIa and 109 to be historically accurate performance-wise for the sake of accuracy, it means from a gameplay aspect both fighters can reach altitude a little quicker, closing speeds on enemy bombers are faster, and headons with opposing fighters that much scarier. :)

The Ia is too slow, IMHO at this early point, in that it shouldn't be that much slower than the IIa. If the IIa and the Ia are not superior to the 109's, they should at least be a very serious threat. I did shoot down a vulching 109 at Hawkinge while flying a IIa. He certainly knew I was there because he dodged my poorly-aimed tracers as I overshot him. He could've escaped at that point while I was reversing to re-engage (as any smart experten 109 pilot would), but this 109 opted instead to make another strafing run. This gave me the time I needed to come around and line him up -- something that we couldn't do with our nerfed RAF fighters pre-patch. I don't believe the current patched Ia has the performance to effectively counter a boom & zooming 109 strafing its home airfield, but I certainly found the patched IIa does.

I had one sortie today in the 100-octane Rotol, thanks to your air start at Eastchurch. It feels like it has similar performance at sea level to the earlier Rotol (retail 1.15950 version) -- except in the current version you go to 12 lbs overboost to get up to ~270 mph (with noise, vibration, and possible blown engine at 3000 rpms) where before you got the same speed at 6.25 lbs boost, 2500/2600 rpms - no vibration and you could maintain that speed for a whole gas tank. I helped shoot down a Stuka that was attacking Ramsgate; the Hurricane seems to hold steadier than a Spit while firing -- but that might only be my imagination. I then proceeded on to Dover and managed to ram Bliss' dawdling 109 from behind. Actually, he backed up into me -- a new maneuvre for the 109 with this latest patch, I believe. I'd be interested to hear JTDawg's take on the 100-octane Rotol.

Again, take everything above with a grain of salt based on initial trials of aircraft in an online combat environment. I haven't yet taken any of these RAF a/c into a rear area to give 'em a serious going over, with careful checks of instrument readings.

ATAG_Colander

07-02-2012, 10:02 PM

Eh>?

The 109 Rudder is better and the 109 always talks to you before the stall which you can now get out of with out 2000m's of falling.

That's basically what I said :) with the exception of the warning. I feel the vanilla version warned a lot more and the beta version is more susceptible to flat spin just by pulling the stick "a bit more".

Maybe just I need to get used to the new hints the plane gives as I don't tend to fly in that side of the envelope.

ATAG_Colander.

5./JG27.Farber

07-03-2012, 09:33 AM

The 109 has always had a very vocal airframe just like real life. Then again Ive been flying it along time. Just listen though she will talk to you, you only have to listen. ;)

klem

07-04-2012, 07:19 PM

RAF COs please see my mission 3 post under Offcers Mess.

Thank you.

JTDawg

07-04-2012, 11:52 PM

I'd be interested to hear JTDawg's take on the 100-octane Rotol.

Well i agree with Snapper ,the Rotol is a pig , With no climb, an not much of a turner anymore Where you use to be able to get on a 109 in 3 to 4 turns , 109s can stick with you , an even turn in side of you, so completely opposite of what it should be,. Before i felt going into a fight even with E4 I had aleast a 50-50 chance , It is not the bird of prey anymore !! IT is the prey . run to hard for a min or to ,an bam the death shake . I cant even say it's a good gun platform anymore since ,i quit flying it except for campainge , Being a true rotol lover it just kills me to see this happen to her shame! shame! shame! But if they ever fix her i'll be back in a heart beat :(

JTDawg

07-04-2012, 11:53 PM

RAF COs please see my mission 3 post under Offcers Mess.

Thank you.

Roger m8

klem

07-08-2012, 09:50 PM

RAF COs please see:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/t61-radar-and-aircraft-performance-possibilities#432

macro

07-09-2012, 09:17 AM

Was pretty smooth this week but cant help but feel like target practice for 109 in spit 1a and hurri. Both of the missions i played in were ju87's coming in low with fighters diving on them. Left us with no chance of fighting them off. Need spit2 imo oly red aircraft that can compete with 109.

Or am i missing the point? Is it supposed to be like this?

5./JG27.Farber

07-09-2012, 10:09 AM

You actually saw Stuka heading North "low"? Or heading South low after an attack? Someone else said this and checked the waypoints. None of the Stuka way points are low before the attack. They are only low after the attack, when they have dived, andare escaping.

macro

07-09-2012, 11:46 AM

Same difference mate. The earliest report of ea we had was off the coast of deal a bit south (east of dover). We headed towards dover from littlestone and saw 87's attacking hawkinge with 109's perched nicely above them. And even if we were level it doesnt make a difference. Cant follow 109 in spit 1 or hurri all they have to do is pull up and roll over. Makes it near impossible to cover eachother if cant geet anywhere near the speed of a 109

Just feels like it set up for blue to kill reds in helpless planes while we try to kill ai's and not being able to engage real pilots

Sorry to sound like im whining as never done it here before.

5./JG27.Farber

07-09-2012, 12:48 PM

Please understand I cannot convey emotion well in this text and that I am not "laying down the law" or trying in anyway to be rude or "tell you how it is". I am only trying to explain so that you can make sense of it. ;)

Same difference mate.

You might think so but from a mission making point of view and from what was said I dont think it is, that stukas made a low level attack, I thought there was a problem. The way I read it the stuka came in at say 500m's and just skip bombed, however this was not the case, they came in at a standed stuka height and dive bombed before escaping on the deck which is completely realistic. I was lead to believe something was going wrong in the mission.

Ive checked the mission waypoints and they are correct and it has also been confirmed by witnesses that the low level part was the stuka escaping after their attack.

The earliest report of ea we had was off the coast of deal a bit south (east of dover). We headed towards dover from littlestone and saw 87's attacking hawkinge with 109's perched nicely above them. And even if we were level it doesnt make a difference.

Well thats tactical. The blue mission was a frei-jagd. We didnt find anything until we (5./JG27 anyway) found the Stuka. Personally I didnt see one single enemy fighter.

Cant follow 109 in spit 1 or hurri all they have to do is pull up and roll over. Makes it near impossible to cover eachother if cant geet anywhere near the speed of a 109

We cannot control or alter the flight models made by MG.

Just feels like it set up for blue to kill reds in helpless planes while we try to kill ai's and not being able to engage real pilots

We tried to make it historically and realisticly accurate. As was noted before in the explination of the campaign "for those that wish to score it" where the "who wins" and "who loses" explination was given. As we all know, the Luftwaffe will "lose". So for me personally its really the experience of it that holds any value.

Perhaps your feeling like an RAF fighter pilot in August 1940? Stretched to the limit and frustrated?

If you have any suggestions, please send me a PM. I promise to read it but I dont promise to act on it.

Sorry to sound like im whining as never done it here before.

I spoke with you on ATAG TS3 before and you seemed reasonable. Just remember, Ive tried to make this as enjoyable but also realisticaly and historically accurate at the same time. I cant please everyone.

I think you will see the blues having a tougher time of it over the next four missions. ;)

macro

07-09-2012, 02:16 PM

Dont get me wrong mate i still enjoy it and appreciate the efforts you goin through. Just makeing the point that i (and lot of the others that were on ts) cant fight 109's in those junk planes. The target is the bombers. If it is done so we cant engage fighters then i understand.

I am a reasonable person, just some feedback that all. Dont think writing this makes me unreasonable does it? Sorry if it came accross that way

5./JG27.Farber

07-09-2012, 02:43 PM

Dont get me wrong mate i still enjoy it and appreciate the efforts you goin through. Just makeing the point that i (and lot of the others that were on ts) cant fight 109's in those junk planes. The target is the bombers. If it is done so we cant engage fighters then i understand.

You can engage ALL TARGETS of oppurtunity! - just like a real war! ;)

I am a reasonable person, just some feedback that all. Dont think writing this makes me unreasonable does it? Sorry if it came accross that way

No it didnt come across wrong. I just wanted to understand and be understood. :-P

macro

07-09-2012, 03:29 PM

Talk on ts later mate language barrier here dont want you getting wrong idea about what im saying

David198502

07-09-2012, 03:51 PM

shot down three hurricanes yesterday....killed two pilots, and i shot off the left wing of the third hurricane, and the pilot bailed...yet i didnt get the credit for even one kill...no points whatsoever.

normally when playing online, i dont even look at the stats, but here in the campaign, i recognized, that you guys made a really really nice and detailed stats page, just like it was on warbirdsofprey server in 1946...so its a shambles that its not working correctly.
if i looked at the stats of the pilots i killed, there it was recognized that i killed them actually, but still, i dont get any credit for it...well, it was fun yesterday, but i think it was not that much fun for the red side.my impression was, that the amount of blue pilots was higher than on the red side.furthermore, the majority of red pilots were in hurricanes, which is a sitting duck,....maybe they need more targets(bombers) to have as much fun as the blue side.

5./JG27.Farber

07-09-2012, 04:33 PM

Thats because it IS the WoP stats generator by WW. The server admin is looking into the problem. The important thing is we have the raw database! So we should be able to establish everything, its just how the its being interpretated isnt quite right at the moment.

We'd love to give the reds more bombers to shoot at but we cant as it would make their game a power point presentation. Weve scaled it back from what we originally intended to use. :(

We would have also have liked to have more clouds :(

David198502

07-09-2012, 09:21 PM

personally i wouldnt recommend clouds,..on atag, we get many lags through to them and besides, have a look at this:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33140

macro

07-09-2012, 09:40 PM

personally i wouldnt recommend clouds,..on atag, we get many lags through to them and besides, have a look at this:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=33140

clouds are a no go from the link above, i suspected this a few days ago when someone i was flying with went straight through the cloud for no reason, dismissed it though didnt even think he didnt see it. another doh! from devs.

We'd love to give the reds more bombers to shoot at but we cant as it would make their game a power point presentation. Weve scaled it back from what we originally intended to use. :(

We would have also have liked to have more clouds :(

engine limits atm are a pain in the arse. i cant wait for radar picking up raids of 100+ comming in with the fighter escort in a campaign. FM wont matter much in that chaos :grin:

5./JG27.Farber

07-09-2012, 11:47 PM

i cant wait for radar picking up raids of 100+ comming in with the fighter escort in a campaign. FM wont matter much in that chaos :grin:

Those will be the days! :-P

klem

07-10-2012, 10:43 AM

I had a long chat with Farber about our concerns which fell into two areas:

Aircraft Performance
Radar function

The Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire MkIa (100 octane) aircraft are seriously underperforming:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=442835&postcount=1
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=442484&postcount=1

I have asked if we can have 87 Octane Spitfires 1a for Hurricanes 100 octane and 87 octane Spitfire MkIIa for Spitfire MkIa 100 octane

Perhaps more important is our ability to interpret what is going on. Trying to lead a Squadron with navigation, formation control, lookout etc and then operating as a Radar Controller too is impossible to do properly. Its not even practical for a wingman. Also not being able to update the radar information for five minutes is unrealistic. I know that the data should be 4 minutes out of date and so has to be delayed to simulate that but Radar Controllers had that late information coming in continuously or could call for it any time. Then the Sector stations had to consider the whole picture and direct their forces as necessary.

What we lack is the opportunity to create and interpret the overall picture which was a vital and fundamental aspect of the success of the radar system and the Battle. It was a weapon in itself not just a handy addon. SLs are currently doing it in isolation and only when it is practical (I was only able to use the radar three times because so much else was going on). What we need are radar controllers, guys willing to sit in a cockpit on the ground where they can operate the radar commands, have time to read/capture and assess the text returns (which don't stay long), talk to eachother and direct Squads as necessary. That's not flying but its not as boring as some people might think. I'd be happy to do it but if we are allowed that we should be allowed extra non-flying personnel to do it to keep our flying numbers the same.

I have asked if we can have that.

I am really grateful for the guys putting this campaign together and in parts we have been able to enjoy it while some parts are frustrating for the above reasons. We don't expect to sweep through victorious skies just because we happen to know the RAF won (or didn't lose) the Battle, we know it was hard and frustrating but for the historical reasons. 56 will certainly continue to take part but I think a few changes need to be made for more realistic possibilities and for improved gameplay.

5./JG27.Farber

07-10-2012, 11:53 AM

Right I only see two things worth addressing here:

1.RADAR

4 minutes delay
This 4 minutes delay for response is interesting since information cannot be absolutely up to date. I'm trying to find out the delay between RDF station and reporting to the squadrons. 4 mins seems a long time, you could cross the Channel in that time. An alternative suggestion is that the flight leaders have a time delay between plot requests of a few minutes, so once they request and get feedback they cannot select again until that time has expired - this would add in the random factor for LW course changes and human error until visual confirmation, it would stop a flight leader from just hammering the button!

About the 4 minutes delay. It appears to be bang on because the RDF data went through a filter station (where people examined the plotted information) before being passed to the FC bunker - this website is definitely worth a read.

http://www.ventnorradar.co.uk/CH.htm

"The edited data was assembled as markers on a large plotting table and this showed the situation as it had been something like four minutes previously : since then the bombers would have flown about another fifteen miles"

This is interesting too. Vector was only confirmed with the second reading.
"Repeated plots became the direction of travel (vector) with the height and estimated number of aircraft repeatedly confirmed"

CH was blind past the coast and then the OC was used. But was the delay resolved for the BoB???
"With the separate raids thus identified, the information was passed to an Operations room staff who could then make the tactical decisions regarding the deployment and vectoring of the defending aircraft, either those already in the air or presently on the ground, towards their ever moving targets. It was found that those best equipped to calculate the required courses were recuperating experienced pilots as they were able to better visulise the everchanging relationships between defending and attacking aircraft. However, once the enemy aircraft had crossed the coast the CH RDF could no longer detect them and then the Royal Observer Corps reports to the Filter Room became the sole means of tracking the enemy."

"The system of having to use correction charts before reporting plots to the Filter Room contributed to the four minute delay and and sometimes of course the human factor introduced errors. This problem was solved by 'The Calculator'. Designed and installed by the Post Office ( which later constructed the Colossi computers for Bletchley Park) and using relays and uniselectors, this little known and uncelebrated early form of computer automatically added the correction factors to the input plots and displayed the results visually as the grid reference. The machine could also correct heights in the same way and a mechanically linked teleprinter could send the data by telephone line to the remote Filter Room. Ventnor was equipped with its first calculator in June 1940 and received its second in April 1941."

All of which can be found here:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=30979

OK, so we can see that with help from the community, especially Kodiak and Osprey that we did our best to make the most realistic radar system possible within limits.

I cant currently find the part where WE (the community) decided a 1 min delay for requesting needed to be added to a 4 min delay in the message - essentially making it a 5 min lock out! However, it was agreed the Squadron Leader should not be able to "spam" it.

With this consideration I see no reason why the request lock out should not be 1 min (the time it would proberbly take to get through and talk with control) and that the information delay should not be 4 min with the estimated course as per normal.

EDIT1: I will have to double check this is indeed the mechanics of the script and that this is possible but Im pretty sure this is how it works and is possible.

SO FOR EXAMPLE:
SL (SL means tail number 1 or "A") connects to a single radar station. Requests information. waits 1 min, requests again. waits 1 min, requests again. waits 1 min, requests again. waits 1 min, requests again. Now he recieves the Estimated Plotted course from the position that is 4 mins old and gets a new Estimated Plotted course that is four mins old every min for the next 3 mins or as long as he kept requesting.

HOWEVER this does have certain draw backs. using this method the report will not track the same contact only reveal the closet applicable target. So you might find you are on wild goose chase as two targets are kneck and kneck in range but in two totally different sides of the radar. Just a thought ;)

AIRCRAFT:

I dont think anyone would mind if the Spit IIa was used instead of the Spit Ia, we used it before and no one complained, however if anyone seriously does mind can they please speak up. This would also mean ground starts for the Spits.

Spitfire Ia substitution for any Hurricane is NOT going to happen. This is a historical campaign and we dont want to make it "fair" we want to make it accurate. You cant have the BoB without the Hurricane! You may however have the 87 or 100 Octane - Red teams choice.

Please also see the OP in this thread and here:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/t8-how-the-campaign-will-be-run-bob

S!

Ok official mode off:

MY OPPINION:

Im not going to tell the red team what to do but I would consider the overall team tactics you are using (which you are doing by considering having "ground control") and especially the altitude you guys fly at but what do I know?!

macro

07-10-2012, 01:49 PM

sounds good. think this would encourage (as a must) for the spits to fly in regular contacts with hurri squads to get the to the bombers and protecting them against 109's. Did this really happen? spits taking on 109's tieing them up so the hurri's can attack the bombers? i seen it on a few programs but never actually read it in mission reports posted on this website. :confused:

i posted a link on SOW forums with info for radar. it says its range was 200 miles. if this is so we should see a build up of aircraft and where the would roughly be coming from but not where they would be going to until it had gone through the radar station to HQ etc.

i can imagin it hard for someone to fly and do this, as they had personnel full time all over the place relaying this info then HQ to tell all the SL where to go, not give them the info and leave it up to them where they go and have a discussion about it as well, wasting time.

maybe a commander (also on the ground) who is given this info (from players at each radar getting the info as per post above) then they make the call who goes where, kinda like the real radar process. no doodling about while they dropping bombs on us. :cool:

5./JG27.Farber

07-10-2012, 02:35 PM

The plan was have Spitfires attack fighters and hurricanes attack bombers, I think this refers to september more though.

However I really think it came down to what you found first. If you were bounced or could bounce... I think allot of it came down to circumstance.

JTDawg

07-10-2012, 03:54 PM

HMM 16500 to 18000 what are you saying ? an that changes weekly . +1 on spit 2a. , an hurri needs to stay, as it is only ride for some squads ,. I think as a whole the Squads our flying better each week, while still working out a few kinks , Many squads , an players look foreward to this on sunday !! But there has to be fun to , Spit 2a needs to be kept in till fm fixed , The biggest problem with the campainge is not the campainge , But the game as we all struggle threw it, keep up the good work . BTW . It did seem that the numbers of e4s were a little out of whack this week ! cya sunday salute Dawg

5./JG27.Farber

07-10-2012, 04:57 PM

Wierd, we didnt see you up there.

I knew the thing was comming about the E4's and it has already been told to me. So unless you know of any way to get round this predicament - please let me know:

Red:

August
Spitfire - 34% (15 )
Hurricane - 66% Unlimited

Blue:

August
E1 - 40% Unlimited
E3 - 8% (4 )
E4 - 52% (23 )

Now the numbers in brackets were based on a turn out of 45 players a side. (9 blue bombers to fly any bombers including 110's as they wished.) Now the average attendance seems to be somewhere around 40/50 of the top of my head for both teams.

The limited aircraft are limited by script and wont despawn. There fore if some one spawns 20 Bf109E4's, there gone. So we added 10% to all limits for this purpose.

So with all this in mind. Everyone on blue (less than 23) players could in effect take an E4. Same goes for red (almost).

On the blue side we have limited it our selves per squadron, like thus:

Mission 1 distibution:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/SoWC/mission1.jpg

This was based upon the numbers in each squadron and is what each Staffel should be trying to stick too! - OR THEY ARE VERY NAUGHTY! :mad: Bad Germans! NO!

What have the red team done in this regard? I understand you have a choice between two different aircrat whereas the Blue main fighter is the same with different armament so your system would not be so mixed.

I was reliable informed by the person from the red team who asked the same question that the red team was:

RED TEAM MEMBER: There were some compaints about the number of E-4s, did you keep the August Balance of E-1s/E-4s?

5./JG27Farber: also i suspect to many spitfires the thing is were also not flying at full stregth ie 50 players

RED TEAM MEMBER: true - we had

56 up to 8 Hurricanes
401 up to 6? Hurricanes
501 up to 6? Hurricanes
71 up to 6 Hurricanes (plus Spits below)

64 Sqdn up to 6 Spitfires (hopefully IIa's as the patched Ia is still naff)
71 up to 6 Spitfires ---- Ditto ----
41 up to 3 Spitfires

5./JG27Farber: so because the teams are not full this will happen

RED TEAM MEMBER: but not all seats got filled

5./JG27Farber: however aircraft are limited E4,E3 and spit are limited to the numbers shown in the set up of the campaign

RED TEAM MEMBER: Yes. We had 14 spits up and about 20 Hurricanes

This is roughly 41% Spitfires (34% allowed) and 59% Hurricanes (66% allowed). So all I can garentee is that there were no more than

Spitfire - 17*
E3 - 5*
E4 - 25*

*+10% was added for spawn deaths etc. (I think these are the correct numbers.)

So as you can see, its a two way street. However niether side should use this as an excuse to do what they want! ;)

If anyone can find a solution to this problem, I would love to hear it. Bear in mind - people want to know what they are flying before hand, not just turn up and grab what they can! :-P

Somethings are just beyond our control.

S!

JTDawg

07-10-2012, 07:52 PM

No worries m8, But we were up there !! (thats a dot range thing) = game prob. At the right angle or distance , you can lose sight very fast , an still hear the mtrs noise with no vis on them ,Once again game prob, Also agree guys like to know what ride they have ;) Don't stress to much . It will all work out!! salute

Robo.

07-10-2012, 07:54 PM

well, it was fun yesterday, but i think it was not that much fun for the red side.my impression was, that the amount of blue pilots was higher than on the red side.furthermore, the majority of red pilots were in hurricanes, which is a sitting duck,....maybe they need more targets(bombers) to have as much fun as the blue side.

Hey David, as a Hurricane pilot I'd like to say I am quite used to what we can do and what we can not do. There SHOULD be more Hurricanes than SPitfires. The way I see it this campaign is just starting and there are some teething problems. So far, it has not been a Battle of Britain at all, it was more like ATAG punchup minus the AI bombers. I don't know how many Stukas have attacked and how high they flew over the Channel as we were not involved in the defensive battle with the 87s, we have only seen a few 109, but it was alright for the 3rd mission only. I hope with the suggestions made there will be improvement (especially with the Radar). The other thing is that it's impossible to please everybody and I'd like to thank the creators for trying.

I strongly object against replacing Spitfire marks or Hurris for Spits - FMs are what they are, let's keep calm and carry on guys!

For myself personally I'd like to see more realistic (and usable) radar, some BofB raids with fighters in escort duties, more probable mix of Emil variants (e.g. more E-1s for this time of the year) and people flying with default (historical) loadouts.

Keep up the good work, see you next Sunday.

5./JG27.Farber

07-10-2012, 09:55 PM

So far, it has not been a Battle of Britain at all, it was more like ATAG punchup minus the AI bombers.

Can you make any suggestions as to how it could be more like BoB? We are always open to suggestions.

There were 24 Stuka in Total. Spread over 4 targets. They broke up on the approach toward folkstone, 6 for each airfield and 3 for each radar.

The most important thing for me and my small team is that people ARE enjoying it and I think you will enjoy it more as it goes on, especially with some of the raids we have picked. When people give us thanks it makes it worth all the hours in FMB and scripting, forum stuff and general tedium. So thanks for the thanks!

S!

Robo.

07-11-2012, 05:41 AM

The most important thing for me and my small team is that people ARE enjoying it and I think you will enjoy it more as it goes on, especially with some of the raids we have picked. When people give us thanks it makes it worth all the hours in FMB and scripting, forum stuff and general tedium. So thanks for the thanks!

S! mate. I am very much aware of that and it's really really appreciated. I can imagine how much effort it takes to keep things running etc. I am also aware that you can't please everyone and I am the last one to complain - as I said perhaps slightly bigger scale than last time, e.g. some medium bombers raids. (I take it it was just quieter day with fighters on Free Hunt and some Stukas the other day.) I know this is due to performance issues and there is no way around. We're at Mission 4 only and I just wait and enjoy. With few more missions, we'll know more and I will certainly give you some more specific feedback. So far just thanks for your work chaps, see you on Sunday ;)

klem

07-11-2012, 06:33 AM

Can you make any suggestions as to how it could be more like BoB? We are always open to suggestions.

There were 24 Stuka in Total. Spread over 4 targets. They broke up on the approach toward folkstone, 6 for each airfield and 3 for each radar.

The most important thing for me and my small team is that people ARE enjoying it and I think you will enjoy it more as it goes on, especially with some of the raids we have picked. When people give us thanks it makes it worth all the hours in FMB and scripting, forum stuff and general tedium. So thanks for the thanks!

S!

Thanks for considering our requests Farber and giving us the SpitIIa. As far as a/c are concerned the real gripe was that they did not have a chance against 109s due to the FMs. The SpitIIa should help there and I accept what you say about the Hurricane. Its just that I was thinking in terms of relative a/c performance, the a/c being our tools, rather than what they looked like. OK so we stay with the Hurricane and a couple of us are testing the 87 octane version (I already did the 100) to see which would be better as the 100 octane is well below RL performance and does not have Boost Override Cutout working.

We are managing the a/c allocation numbers by assigning them to specific squads as you listed in a previous post. Generally it works out OK, we don't exceed the allocated numbers but the Spitfire %age was a little high on Sunday due to turnout. Its just that when we pulled up the on-screen stats it seemed the blues were flying almost entirely E4s. I am sure there were more than the 9 E4s listed in your a/c allocation table so perhaps you could look at logs etc to see and if so have a word with the unit commanders.

With 24 stukas breaking up into several groups plus Do17s and attacking 4 targets we have to accept that we cannot intercept every raid. With Hurricanes attacking bombers and Spitfires trying to cover them we would be limited to intercepting 3 raids. We could of course throw one squad at each raid we find and risk the 109s (if we can find all the raids) and that is what tended to happen on Sunday more by luck than judgement, there was no time for niceties like Spits coming to the help of Hurricanes when they were already engaged so after our a/c got engaged with 109s or Stukas and had used there ammo it was inevitable that 109s that had not been engaged would have ammo to slaughter the remaining red aircraft they found. We have the unfortunate problem of trying to deal with 24 Stukas plus ? Do17s that went to Gravesend plus up to 40 109s (probably around 30 on the night?). That's ok as the RAF were heavily outnumbered in the BoB but it does mean that our neutered Hurricanes are going to die wholesale once their ammo is gone and without a FM to give them a fighting chance.

One question regarding "being like the BoB". Would the 109s have stayed around to feed off the empty Hurris and Spits or would many of them have withdrawn to cover the retiring bombers? Also, how are you guys finding the fuel issue, as I alway understood the endurance of the 109 to be a little over an hour with about 20 minutes over England? I think we were in the air for over an hour and 109s were still over our coast knocking down our aircraft.

EDIT: I meant to say that you are destroying Radar easily but in fact it was very hard to destroy even when undefended. It was bady damaged on 12th August when the radar stations were a main priority but as they came back on air again on the 13th I understand that the major anti-radar operation of 12 August was not repeated. A few days later, Göring is said to have stated,
“It is doubtful whether there is any point in continuing the attacks on radar sites, in view of the fact that not one of those attacked has so far been put out of action.”
Any further radar attacks failed to make significant damage to the radar system. I wonder if your future radar attacks should be severely restricted or perhaps even stopped as in RL they were ineffective whilst in CoD they are too easy to destroy.

David198502

07-11-2012, 08:36 AM

Hey David, as a Hurricane pilot I'd like to say I am quite used to what we can do and what we can not do. There SHOULD be more Hurricanes than SPitfires. The way I see it this campaign is just starting and there are some teething problems. So far, it has not been a Battle of Britain at all, it was more like ATAG punchup minus the AI bombers. I don't know how many Stukas have attacked and how high they flew over the Channel as we were not involved in the defensive battle with the 87s, we have only seen a few 109, but it was alright for the 3rd mission only. I hope with the suggestions made there will be improvement (especially with the Radar). The other thing is that it's impossible to please everybody and I'd like to thank the creators for trying.

I strongly object against replacing Spitfire marks or Hurris for Spits - FMs are what they are, let's keep calm and carry on guys!

For myself personally I'd like to see more realistic (and usable) radar, some BofB raids with fighters in escort duties, more probable mix of Emil variants (e.g. more E-1s for this time of the year) and people flying with default (historical) loadouts.

Keep up the good work, see you next Sunday.

I will do the next time....ill definitely fly the E1 on sunday with a historical loadout...Pitti and me found a historical loadout, which is working surprisingly well!its really fun to fly the E1 now for me, so i have no problems to be one of the E1 pilots!

to Farber,...24Stukas? is it really that hard for the game/server to handle more of them?i ask because sometimes iam hosting a mission in the Lobby, where 60+ AI aircraft are in the air constantly.its a script, where submissions will load randomly into the main mission with AI flights.the script is written, that after a certain amount of planes has spawned, the submissions will stop to be loaded.when some aircrafts despawn after landing or get destroyed, and the total number of planes drop below the limit, then the submissions will start to get loaded again...this way, in the main mission there are 60+AI aircraft in the air constantly, and besides some stutters when another submission gets loaded, the game runs smooth...
and mind this was hosted from my weak machine...so i would think that a real server wouldnt have that much problems with 60 AI aircraft in the air??

ATAG_Bliss

07-11-2012, 08:46 AM

I will do the next time....ill definitely fly the E1 on sunday with a historical loadout...Pitti and me found a historical loadout, which is working surprisingly well!its really fun to fly the E1 now for me, so i have no problems to be one of the E1 pilots!

to Farber,...24Stukas? is it really that hard for the game/server to handle more of them?i ask because sometimes iam hosting a mission in the Lobby, where 60+ AI aircraft are in the air constantly.its a script, where submissions will load randomly into the main mission with AI flights.the script is written, that after a certain amount of planes has spawned, the submissions will stop to be loaded.when some aircrafts despawn after landing or get destroyed, and the total number of planes drop below the limit, then the submissions will start to get loaded again...this way, in the main mission there are 60+AI aircraft in the air constantly, and besides some stutters when another submission gets loaded, the game runs smooth...
and mind this was hosted from my weak machine...so i would think that a real server wouldnt have that much problems with 60 AI aircraft in the air??

The servers aren't the problem. Hosting on your own machine, I'm assuming from in-game/through the FMB, isn't comparable to running it through dserver. The netcode is the problem. You can fly around with 1000AI all by yourself without much of a hickup (if you have the machine for it) Add other players in the mix + AI = disaster in cliff's current state. Heck, players alone cause disaster to servers. Our server barely uses 7% of the cpu to run cliffs when it's full, let alone empty.

Until the game is fixed, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

David198502

07-11-2012, 08:49 AM

ATAG_Bliss

07-11-2012, 08:51 AM

yeah but i was playing the mission online with my squadmates!
though you are right, i noticed that the mission ran more fluid when i tested it on my own...when my mates joined, i had to reduce the number of AI flights to 60.

Define online? Were you running the game through the lobby or did you run it through the dserver/dos box? There's a huge difference.

Edit: And when I mean players - I mean at least 20+. You won't see network problems or the problems caused by net code until you have a bunch of people causing bandwidth flow - aka net code.

David198502

07-11-2012, 09:22 AM

well read my post again

notafinger!

07-11-2012, 10:50 AM

We are managing the a/c allocation numbers by assigning them to specific squads as you listed in a previous post. Generally it works out OK, we don't exceed the allocated numbers but the Spitfire %age was a little high on Sunday due to turnout. Its just that when we pulled up the on-screen stats it seemed the blues were flying almost entirely E4s. I am sure there were more than the 9 E4s listed in your a/c allocation table so perhaps you could look at logs etc to see and if so have a word with the unit commanders.

Klem, the table Farber posted showing ~10 E4's was from mission 1 based in July where E4's made up roughly 20% of Bf 109 strength. We just finished mission 3 in the August time frame where E4's account for 52% of aircraft strength. As Farber said the numbers were set for a full team but when everyone doesn't show of course the E4's are taken first. One remedy I would propose would be removal of the mine shell. IMO it is probably over-modeled compared to the other 20mm rounds available and causes Hurricanes to just fall apart. I think that would make red a little less concerned about the E4 numbers but I don't think it could be enforced server side, just a gentleman's agreement to remove it from our E4 loadouts. At the very least I think it's something we could try for at least one mission.

One question regarding "being like the BoB". Would the 109s have stayed around to feed off the empty Hurris and Spits or would many of them have withdrawn to cover the retiring bombers? Also, how are you guys finding the fuel issue, as I alway understood the endurance of the 109 to be a little over an hour with about 20 minutes over England? I think we were in the air for over an hour and 109s were still over our coast knocking down our aircraft.

Regarding 109 tactics, the Jagdwaffe's mission was to destroy Fighter Command. As long as there are RAF fighters airborne and the Bf 109's have fuel/ammo to engage I think it's safe to assume they would. It was a tactic of the Germans to send in a low level sweep after a raid to try and catch planes being refueled/rearmed and there were some successes doing that. It might be worth considering holding back a few fighters to cover your force after they disengage from the bombers.

Fuel with the Bf 109 was really only a concern when they were going to areas around London and they had to fly close escort and spent hours zigzagging behind the slower cruising bombers. Also, remember Park did not like big wings. He preferred to throw his squadrons at the bombers piece meal which peeled off the escorts layer by layer like an onion. This meant the Bf 109's were almost constantly engaged over England which really drains the tanks quickly. Personally, last mission I took 100% fuel, climbed to 6k, cruised between Dover and Littlestone, and then engaged RAF over Hawkinge for maybe 20-30 minutes. I returned home with less than 25% remaining. As the fighting moves closer to London I think you'll see fuel become a bigger issue for the Bf 109's.

Osprey

07-11-2012, 10:59 AM

I said I wouldn't post but since it is campaign I will. I just wanted to make the point that although I helped with the radar, and Farber quotes correctly, I did protest about having it destroyed because that is just complete balls. It actually makes me reluctant to even use it because I know how easy it is to destroy, and to make matters worse I learn today that the mission sends 3 AI to each site to do the job - it's just not possible to stop it's destruction at all. To put it in perspective, ACG run the events of August 12th on our server which is all about the radar attacks, we scale it down to just 20% of the actual aircraft in the raids but there are still 9 Ju88's coming across to hit Ventnor alone. Germany brought it down for about 2 hours at great cost, and that was because a single bomb had hit one of the electrical supply thingies. 2 hours was because GB had mobile RDF trucks which could be moved to plug gaps. After the Ventnor attack Georing sent a Stuka raid into the Thames Estuary following reports from Erpo210 that they were successful, and that was massacred by No.501 from Gravesend. It is then that Georing started to rethink about tackling RDF. Since the radar was hit then on Sunday then 501 had no idea that Do-17's were inbound to Gravesend, which is a great shame because we were covering that area until vectored to the Stuka attack, and we arrived too late, only to meet 109's milling about, dominating of course, you'd have to be a bad flyer not to with these FM's.

Regarding the number of E4's and Spitfires. Do you have the actual figures Farber? Only I saw about 90% E4's - it's not as if they even need then given the advantage the 109 has atm.
I don't buy the 'availability' argument I'm afraid, squadrons should have a percentage or you tell squadrons what to take. It's poor form to just take it and say that so and so isn't here so I will take his better plane. The RAF work this out as a group and aim for a 2/3rds Hurricane split, we can't be entirely accurate because we aren't mixing types in a single flight though.

Also, you mentioned altitude, well Stuka's dive from 3km+ and that's not very high, they are our targets, and then they get low. I would recommend 4km+ level bombers coming in at a target in waves, we're all more likely to get a shot then, and we should be at a better operating alt (probably not though with this junk FM!).

Positively I enjoyed our flight out as a group and we learned some lessons from it as a group, it was interesting training. Haven't seen a single bomber yet though.

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 11:05 AM

S! mate. I am very much aware of that and it's really really appreciated. I can imagine how much effort it takes to keep things running etc. I am also aware that you can't please everyone and I am the last one to complain - as I said perhaps slightly bigger scale than last time, e.g. some medium bombers raids. (I take it it was just quieter day with fighters on Free Hunt and some Stukas the other day.) I know this is due to performance issues and there is no way around. We're at Mission 4 only and I just wait and enjoy. With few more missions, we'll know more and I will certainly give you some more specific feedback. So far just thanks for your work chaps, see you on Sunday ;)

Gotcha ok! Yes It really is a shame we have to use these small formations. ;)

Thanks for considering our requests Farber and giving us the SpitIIa...

NP :-P

...I am sure there were more than the 9 E4s listed in your a/c allocation table so perhaps you could look at logs etc to see and if so have a word with the unit commanders....

9 E4's is the table for July - Mission 1. Im not sure if the tables in the OP contain the +10% to account for spawn deaths etc. I will look into it though.

With 24 stukas breaking up into several groups plus Do17s and attacking 4 targets we have to accept that we cannot intercept every raid....

What Do17's? Not every raid was intercepted...

...We have the unfortunate problem of trying to deal with 24 Stukas plus ? Do17s that went to Gravesend ...

We (5./JG27) were flying 109's not Do17's. As far as I am aware we went deepest into enemy terrortry lloking for the spits, which we pressumed, would be getting altitude and comming back to the coast.

One question regarding "being like the BoB". Would the 109s have stayed around to feed off the empty Hurris and Spits or would many of them have withdrawn to cover the retiring bombers? Also, how are you guys finding the fuel issue, as I alway understood the endurance of the 109 to be a little over an hour with about 20 minutes over England? I think we were in the air for over an hour and 109s were still over our coast knocking down our aircraft.

Yes they would have stayed around to "feed". It was not until toward the later part of August and into September that the fighters become true escorts. Before this time a Frei-Jagd screen was thrown up just as we are doing.

EDIT: I meant to say that you are destroying Radar easily but in fact it was very hard to destroy even when undefended. It was bady damaged on 12th August when the radar stations were a main priority but as they came back on air again on the 13th I understand that the major anti-radar operation of 12 August was not repeated. A few days later, Göring is said to have stated,
“It is doubtful whether there is any point in continuing the attacks on radar sites, in view of the fact that not one of those attacked has so far been put out of action.”
Any further radar attacks failed to make significant damage to the radar system. I wonder if your future radar attacks should be severely restricted or perhaps even stopped as in RL they were ineffective whilst in CoD they are too easy to destroy.

Thats a very cunning way of trying to find the date out Klem I'll give you that! :-P

I can tell you the dates and time of every mission after the campaign and you can confirm it. How is that?

About the number of aircraft, Bliss is Correct. Once you get 40 players + large AI formations are not an option unless you want to play the game by postcard.

I said I wouldn't post but since it is campaign I will. I just wanted to make the point that although I helped with the radar, and Farber quotes correctly, I did protest about having it destroyed because that is just complete balls...

No its not and I remeber at the time showing you sources to this effect. It was the towers that were hard to destroy! Generators, power lines, telephone lines etc were disabled and the CH stations where out at some points, it IS A FACT! They were quickly repared or mobile units where rushed in to "plug the gap". I will gladly present my sources at the end of the campaign.

Regarding the number of E4's and Spitfires. Do you have the actual figures Farber? Only I saw about 90% E4's - it's not as if they even need then given the advantage the 109 has atm.
I don't buy the 'availability' argument I'm afraid, squadrons should have a percentage or you tell squadrons what to take. It's poor form to just take it and say that so and so isn't here so I will take his better plane. The RAF work this out as a group and aim for a 2/3rds Hurricane split, we can't be entirely accurate because we aren't mixing types in a single flight though.

I will repeat myself... No I have not looked at the actually figures, I am too busy responding to posts on 1c. I have already presented the reasons why. If you are not buying it thats convient because Im not selling it mate. As far as I am aware the squadrons on that list should not excede the values given on it and the whole team cannot excede the values in the script limiting aircraft.

As I said, if you can work it out where everyone knows what they are flying before hand and get the percentile mix right please do share. I can see you not happy but your not providing a solution.

Also, you mentioned altitude, well Stuka's dive from 3km+ and that's not very high, they are our targets, and then they get low. I would recommend 4km+ level bombers coming in at a target in waves, we're all more likely to get a shot then, and we should be at a better operating alt (probably not though with this junk FM!).

Altitudes have taken from the history books of those specific raids. Dont blame me, blame the LW.

Positively I enjoyed our flight out as a group and we learned some lessons from it as a group...

Great!

David198502

07-11-2012, 12:00 PM

not quite true Farber..Pitti and me headed towards Littlestone, then further north, then we made a wide right turn until we were north west and north of Gravesend.there we shot down 4Hurris of No.501...so we went in quite deep as well:grin:...though it was a shame, that we didnt encounter any other contacts...only when we were already on our way home, we saw two spits above Dover, who eventually escaped in the end...

Osprey

07-11-2012, 12:30 PM

3 actually David, it's no wonder Georing thought he was winning ;) lol

Farber, please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying. I gave a solution, that is one of honour, that your guys get together before the mission and decide who flies what, more or less. That's what we are doing in the RAF. What is happening from what you are saying is that you have a limit on E4's and that first in grabs one if they can? Why not start with the E-1's and as they run out grab E-4's since it is innocuous.......;) Another solution and one that is more historically accurate is that you tell each leader that they can have amongst their groups 50% E4s, 10% E3's and remainder E1's (or whatever percentage). They can then sort that out according to how many turn up. What's the use in posting those percentages if you aren't able to stick with them? All the same I'd like to see the raw numbers, COD is too rubbish to even allow viewing of a second stats page!

Regardless of whether RDF was taken out or not does not matter, the fact that it took a large raid to do it and they were unsuccessful most of the time doesn't mean that sending 3 stuka's to each and being successful is in any way a reflection on history. For instance, Ventnor required the entire group of KG76 and KG26 supported by ZG2, JG52, JG1 (top of my head, prolly got some squadrons wrong), the raid was 100+ just for one site. If you want to do that then fine, perhaps we can just change our tactics to have 1 squadron circling each RDF site (there are only 5) and we'll bag 15 no problem, which is better than what we've managed so far ;) OK, I'm far more of a cynic than klem, I know it'll rub you up the wrong way and I don't mean to do that, but essentially klem and I are saying the same thing about this :)

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 12:52 PM

Upon Osprey's "request" here we go:

The first number not in brackets is the number of players which took that aircraft on sunday.

The second number in brackets is the total number of that type available based on a full team!

The first percentile in brackets is the percentile of the force that showed up.

The second percentile is the percentage of the composition of a full team!

RED TEAM 34 Players:

Hurricanes 23 out of 33* ( 68% out of 66% ) - unlimited type but added for completeness
Spitfires 11 out of 17* ( 32% out of 34% )

1% = 2.941

BLUE TEAM 23 Players:

Bf109 E1 4 out of 20* ( 17% out of 40% ) - unlimited type but added for completeness
Bf109 E3 1 out of 5* ( 4% out of 4% )
Bf109 E4 18 out of 25* ( 78% out of 52% )

1% = 4.348

*10% ( rounded up ) was added to the originally maximums for spawn deaths etc.

So as we can see at first glance:

WOW LOOK AT ALL THE E4's AND THERES TOO MANY HURRICANES! - but its fine! - because the system is based on a FULL TEAM of 45 players a side!

You will also see that all values of player flown aircraft (not in brackets) NEVER exceeded the mission total.

We are not trying to hit the percentile values exactly - its impossible! We are only trying to limit the maximum composition of a force of a full team.

Our system isnt based on the number of people that show up but of a full team on each side as this is the only realistic method we can enforce.

We would love to have the exact composition!

If you can devise a system that is better please let me know!

I really hope this makes sense because I really dont have time to explain it.

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 01:05 PM

Farber, please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying. I gave a solution...

Not really, not like below!

-solution and one that is more historically accurate is that you tell each leader that they can have amongst their groups 50% E4s, 10% E3's and remainder E1's (or whatever percentage). They can then sort that out according to how many turn up.

I like it. You are asking people to do maths 5 mins before we start and in what way should they round - up or down? In fact I request if you want this system in use you provide a table of %'s for August and July for every number from 1 to 14 for easy refrence.

What's the use in posting those percentages if you aren't able to stick with them? All the same I'd like to see the raw numbers, COD is too rubbish to even allow viewing of a second stats page!

Above this post^
I did it quick might be off a bit but good enough.

Regardless of whether RDF was taken out or not does not matter, the fact that it took a large raid to do it and they were unsuccessful most of the time doesn't mean that sending 3 stuka's to each and being successful is in any way a reflection on history. For instance, Ventnor required the entire group of KG76 and KG26 supported by ZG2, JG52, JG1 (top of my head, prolly got some squadrons wrong), the raid was 100+ just for one site. If you want to do that then fine, perhaps we can just change our tactics to have 1 squadron circling each RDF site (there are only 5) and we'll bag 15 no problem, which is better than what we've managed so far ;) OK, I'm far more of a cynic than klem,

Net code, cant have to many bombers or people complain like mission 2. Do you even read everything in this thread?

I know it'll rub you up the wrong way and I don't mean to do that... :)

You love it. :-P

David198502

07-11-2012, 01:09 PM

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 02:13 PM

I cant wait for Osprey's aircraft distibution cards! :-P

Osprey

07-11-2012, 02:32 PM

1: Chill out
2: The maths is remedial. A ballpark figure would be fine, there's no need to be a tit about it, we just pointed out that most of your aircraft were E4's and you've confirmed that (18 out of 23).

The logic and rules are clear but doesn't hit reality remotely. It's fine, we're (RAF) only asking because it was obvious and that's really to be expected. It just means that next week we'll fill our Spitfire II allocation first before anybody jumps in a Hurricane :)

Why don't you guys like the E1 anyway? It's got 1 minute of guns to spend on easy Hurricanes and is camouflaged. I'd take it.

@David, don't spoil it mate, I had to tell AVM Keith Park that we were bounced by a squadron or he'd send us all off to an OTU ! ;)

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 03:15 PM

1. Chilled :cool:

2. LOL

re·me·di·al/riˈmēdēəl/
Adjective:

Giving or intended as a remedy or cure.
Provided or intended for students who are experiencing learning difficulties.

Its not easy maths, Ive already tried it. Thats why we are using the system we are.

Lets look at the other system so we know how insane it would be.

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

Something like this:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/aircraftdist.jpg

"Ahh well done Farber that is what we shall use then! You clever egg you you!" - I hear you think.

Wrong...

How many is in a Staffel?

Well on sunday from memory My Staffel had 8 (+1 Bf110 pilot which doesnt need to be included).

I./JG26 had 5 (I think).

For the sake of argument, lets say another group had 3 and another had four...

So lets total it up and see if it works.

E1 = 10
E3 = 3
E4 = 7

100% devided by 20 is 5.

5 times 10 is 50% of 40%
5 times 3 is 15% of 8%
5 times 7 is 35% of 52%

This is getting kind of interesting, let me try nd find out who actually flew on sunday in which squads.

OK heres the results:

I./JG26 had 5
JG26 had 2
5./JG27 had 8
SG1 had 6 flying fighters
JG52 had 2 (I think)

OK so:

E1 = 13
E3 = 1
E4 = 10

Therefore:

100% devided by 23 is 4.35.

13 times 4.35 is 56.55% of 40%
1 times 4.35 is 4.35% of 8%
10 times 4.35 is 43.5% of 52%

and then there is the small problem of the smaller Staffel getting no E4's etc... So you would have to have three different tables which rotated every week etc etc and in the end you just think wtf? Its a game...

Ok Im off to get some beers :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oENQ2jlHpfo

Osprey

07-11-2012, 03:41 PM

I know what remedial is otherwise I wouldn't have said it. Forget it, you're obviously not interested, just take E4's and 3,000m airstarts over our heads for all I care if it's too hard to work out a simple ball park percentage. We're trying to help ffs because you're just going have people quit if it gets anymore one sided.

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 04:06 PM

Easy tiger.

I just wondered which remedial you ment, it made me laugh thats all.

Ive just worked it all out above. ;)

Osprey

07-11-2012, 04:27 PM

We used to call 'remedial' set kids 'chicken feeders' at our school, because they were too dumb to teach so were sent off to do farming stuff lol Oh joy....

Anyway, I see your edits, yes, a basic figure is better than just jumping in wholesale for the best types that's what I mean. LW squadrons had mixed types anyway according to Stienhilper, with the leaders taking the new planes. How you do this exactly is up to you but I would suggest a quick count of players, get a rough figure for E4's and tell each crew how many E-4's he can have. Then maybe give the couple of E3's to those crews with fewer E4's, and the rest have to take E-1's. The RAF wouldn't care if you were 1 or 2 over or under, it's just annoys us when we obviously see 90% of the best type which is BS. :p

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 05:04 PM

We had those kids at our school and when we left and went to college they were doing animal handling and dog grooming. :-P

Your quite right about the mixed bag, except where units went to a new theatre, for example When 5./JG27 left the Ost Front to go to Afrika, in such cases the whole Staffel was fitted out.

Its certainly allot closer to what we have previously had. Ive also had another thought! The smaller squads can bunch together for "the count" to get different aircraft. - because the table isnt so hot.

Unless someone wants to adjust the table.

I honestly didnt think it was possible. :rolleyes:

OK we'll give it shot. ;) Obviously I cant control other people or Squadrons...

P.S. yes I am a stubborn begger.

EDIT1:

Hmmm how does this look? - a bit fairer on the smaller Staffel.

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af321/farber82/aircraftdist2.jpg

Robo.

07-11-2012, 05:32 PM

One remedy I would propose would be removal of the mine shell. IMO it is probably over-modeled compared to the other 20mm rounds available and causes Hurricanes to just fall apart.

Oh yes, but as long as players don't use M-Geschoss only that's alright. As for the E-4 numbers I didn't mean to complain, just noticed 'unusually high amounts'. E-1 with custom ammo belt is just as deadly so I don't mind at all. Just for historical reasons, but I see it's difficult to accomplish.

Fuel with the Bf 109 was really only a concern when they were going to areas around London and they had to fly close escort and spent hours zigzagging behind the slower cruising bombers. (...)

Very true.

there we shot down 4Hurris of No.501...

3 Hurricanes lost in that part of the fight, Teepee escaped unharmed and got CTD later on.

5./JG27.Farber

07-11-2012, 05:33 PM

Ive made a mistake on the table, percentile targets are wrong. Ill put up another table very soon. :mad:

E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

Theres about 4 Bf109 E4 missing from the table...

With regards to ammunition, you cant police it.

klem

07-12-2012, 02:22 PM

Hi Farber

when will mission 4 brief be up?

Thanks

5./JG27.Farber

07-12-2012, 02:52 PM

Just putting it up now. :-P

klem

07-12-2012, 09:42 PM

RAF COs please see my Mission 4 post at HQ on the Campaign Forum.

Osprey

07-13-2012, 08:18 AM

Rgr.

JTDawg

07-13-2012, 01:46 PM

Rgr.

5./JG27.Farber

07-15-2012, 08:00 PM

Sorry for the hitch, still didnt work as planned. :(

Had a spectacular fight with 71st AH though! I got bagged :-P

S!

EDIT: wow look at this:

http://70.176.212.41:8888/ClodStats/html/sortiedetails.php?id=360&playerid=41

David198502

07-16-2012, 08:08 AM

so what was yesterday's problem???
pitti and me were above rochester and gravesend, spotted some bombers, and had a fight with hurris,...again 501s...i really wonder when we will see other raf pilots....
this time i shot down 4hurris, but again i got only the credit for one kill, where i killed the pilot and the plane crashed...the other 3kills, i didnt get credit for....though they all bailed out.
and then the most annoying thing, the mission was stopped suddenly, although many players wanted the mission to continue.....just when i was behind a spit over the channel, when we were on our way home already...again a pilot from ACG.

so all in all, so far i should have 7confirmed kills in the stats, but i have only one, and im not sure whats happening with this one, as you stopped the mission, and maybe delete the stats due to this....

(one really strange thing,.....before we started to fight the hurris, we already spotted them ~a minute before...but we couldnt identify them as hurris, as they had a really really strange shape,..just when we got into gunrange ~150meters behind them, we could identify them as hurricanes.i cannot describe the shape we saw, but it was indeed a myterious one, which i have never seen before in the game..)

5./JG27.Farber

07-16-2012, 08:30 AM

Basically what happened was we used to load a map over the base map for air missions. A month or so be fore the campaign we decided to load air missions from inside the map as we thought it surely must have better performance. Also we noticed some odd things in the old system.

Rather than remake the missions all the information was copied over via the .txt files. This meant that we had in some instances where air missions where simply saved twice with different names and loaded over each other in the old system we had waypoints that you could not see as they were the exact same coordinates. It was this mission in particular that was effect by this. The triggers where all set before the campaign but whilst testing this mission at the beginning of the work I found the double way points hidden underneath.

So I reworked the waypoints and as allot of the flights regiment was identical which was sure to cause problems I changed the squadron names. (There were 6 flights in all, 3, 3, 6, 6, 3, 3, totalling 24 bombers... We had to scale this mission down allot and even cut bomb loads in half for playablity.) This ment they could not spawn... :rolleyes:

Sorry for brining down the first run a little earlier than we agreed. The server admin was operating the server from work and we had a little miscommunication.

Its been suggested we rerun it next week, I agree with that. Its actually quite a nice mission when the bombers actually spawn. :-P

Also it will give the spitfires some destraction so they are not nibbling on my bum... :-P

David198502

07-16-2012, 08:36 AM

and what about the stats??will they be working at some point?
what i noticed, i saw the pilots bailing out, but there was never a server message showing up, that the plane crashed...

Osprey

07-16-2012, 11:27 AM

Just count up privately David, you don't need to confirm them because they've all been No.501 so far and we can confirm by our bailouts ;) The good news is we all got out unharmed and got given brand new kites by the Air Ministry. I don't know if you realise but you flew straight past 2 groups of fighters on your trip to Gravesend - you wouldn't be stalking us would you? :eek:

A re-run would be good. I've flown 3 missions so far and not seen a single bomber :( I would also like to see the 109's escort the bombers rather than just fly straight for England hell for leather in the knowledge that we've all taken off.

Can we re-iterate the no-respawn rule please, we had some very strange goings on with one or two 109's seen to go in but then arrive at the scene 15 mins later to take some others out.

David198502

07-16-2012, 12:00 PM

well, Osprey, Pitti and me are really not searching for you guys explicitly...but somehow you are always the first contacts we spot...and its not that we fly straight to Gravesend just to pick you guys up...
and no....we didnt see the two fightergroups you are mentioning...the first two contacts were 2hurris, i think it was Drake and Robo...although we watched out all the time to spot contacts, there was nothing to be seen, until we spotted the two hurris on our 3o clock...when we were going after them, suddenly there were 3more hurris i think, and i got surprised by YOU...although before we entered the fight i looked around to avoid such a surprise...

well, you are right about the stats,..and normally i dont really care, but with those really nice stats, its a pity that they dont work......but unharmed is not correct,...i killed Robo...sorry mate...that infact was the only kill that was captured by the stats.

another really annoying fact is, that there is always at least one member of us, who cannot join...thats a shame and i dont get it...while i have seen many people, quitting and rejoining, we the JG26 always seem to have the problem that at least one of our guys cannot join at all, getting time out messages and the like...

Osprey

07-16-2012, 12:21 PM

Strange. Perhaps you can confirm if I hit one of you then because I'm pretty sure I scored some decent hits on one of you but don't know for sure. As you know, sometimes and entire belt is not enough for a 109 ;)

It's very frustrating to bounce at speed, faster than the 109 and have the 109 go vertical and keep on going with the Hurricane stalling way before.

David198502

07-16-2012, 12:27 PM

macro

07-16-2012, 02:12 PM

Im countin mine privatly, as it says i only got 1.33 kills. On second mission i got 1 beaten up 109 and one deffo kill of 109 but gave me nothing. On 3rd i got stuka, which is recored. On 4th i got 109 thats not recorded. Just cpunt it privatly as your claims can be backed up by logs anyway later

Robo.

07-16-2012, 05:08 PM

well, my plane definitely received some shots, but nothing serious...it didnt leak, and i couldnt find any visual damage....i think it was you.i cannot remember whether Pitti received shots as well or not...

Typical, you bounce him, give a good burst and he says 'nothing serious'. :D

That first mission did not 'happen' I guess, we will re-fly the scenario next week. Second attempt also had no bombers spawned, but it was good formation flying training :D and I guess it did not happen either. Why didn't you join the second session?

The encounter happened the way you describe it except for there were 4 Hurricanes all the time, you attacked one pair and the other just on our left warned as and we broke away. With the visibility as it is I don't wonder you missed the others. I escaped OK, then I tried to help Osprey, scored some hits on you, I thought you were going down for a split second but then you got vertical and it was business as usual. Obviously I didn't give up (although I was tempted to BO or belly-land to save my life) and gave you my best fight but it was not enough. I S!'d you afterwards and then luckily found out the mission will be reflown. I suggest you don't worry about the stats, they're adapted from 1946 and not everything works for CloD, like gun accuracy %ge etc. It's good though for you can see sortie details but that's it. Count them privately as macro suggests. I'd rather see the campaign working than stats - the missing bombers and broken radar are major drawback. I had some good fun anyway, I am sure these things will get sorted. ;) Cheers for flying.