Aircraft Videos and Images

[WTE_Galway]

Of course from a 2012 perspective we would have been better off if the German fleet was still there sunk rather than salvaged and cut up for scrap.

Imagine all the archeological opportunities and BBC/Discovery-Channel documentaries it would have created.

[335th_GRAthos]

Impressive video, one (very lucky) guy jumping over the snapping cable, seven others less fortunate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1c0lfwxRpj0


~S~

[Sternjaeger II]

walking the deck of an aircraft carrier is still one of the most dangerous jobs on the market. I wonder how much these guys earn!

[159th_Jester]

walking the deck of an aircraft carrier is still one of the most dangerous jobs on the market. I wonder how much these guys earn!

I think if you were to ask any of those guys who were hit by that cable, the answer would be "Not enough!"

;)

[xpzorg]

Few years ago on my construction site cable torn off leg of worker

[Sternjaeger II]

I think if you were to ask any of those guys who were hit by that cable, the answer would be "Not enough!"

;)

I bet! ;)

Few years ago on my construction site cable torn off leg of worker

yeah, that's the actual risk: the whiplash of such big steel cables can cut through metal, let alone a human body!

then you have the risk of being sucked in by a jet or minced by a propeller, roasted by jet exhausts, decapitated by wings, blown up or burned by weapons/fuel, thrown in the sea (with pretty much little to no chance of even being found), crushed by unsecured aircraft...

All in all they could probably do a "Final Destination Special" only on aircraft carrier ops! :shock:

[taildraggernut]

Heres a good example...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ugvYWyiUDw

this ones frightening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI9SjKT-oWM&feature=related

[Skoshi Tiger]

this ones frightening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI9SjKT-oWM&feature=related

Just seeing how quickly the men on the deck react is a testiment to the quality of the men, their professionalism and training.

[arthursmedley]

Of course from a 2012 perspective we would have been better off if the German fleet was still there sunk rather than salvaged and cut up for scrap.

Imagine all the archeological opportunities and BBC/Discovery-Channel documentaries it would have created.

Yeah, this sort of thing does make great TV. I would imagine a few TV production companies are in talks with our Burmese Spitfire hunters right now.
I seem to recall there is a demand for sunken battleship steel today. It was generally of very high quality and more importantly, being beneath the ocean since before August 1945 means it has not been irradiated by atmospheric nuclear weapons testing and is needed for sensitive medical testing instruments, space satellites designed to detect cosmic radiations, etc.

[xpzorg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCdExWtHWrA
We don't need fire brigade, we can fly vertically:)


P.S. about cable the ripper http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8_8735oeQI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sknyliv_air_show_disaster
(Many people have died from the cable which hooked to the plane)

[159th_Jester]

Which US carrier was it that had an incident with a missile release on the flight deck during the Vietnam war?

Can't remember the name of the ship but the documentary about the incident was chilling. An electrical short circuit released an A-A missile which set fire to another aircraft also preparing to take off on the other side of the flight deck and resulted in a good bit of ordinance cooking off.

Absolutely horrifying, but as Skoshi just said above, the crew's reaction was testimony to the quality of the men and their training.

[SQB]

Regarding your post xpzorg, thanking you for posting a video which cuts off at that point. I was there for that airshow and witnessed the crash, I tried to help injured and shocked off the airfield and it was my definition of hell on earth. Just seeing the aircraft again brings back those memories.

[xpzorg]

Sorry, i didn't want to seem cynical and callous. Of course i understand that is big tragedy and that's why i post it in reply in 3 first humorous posts.

[BadAim]

Which US carrier was it that had an incident with a missile release on the flight deck during the Vietnam war?

Can't remember the name of the ship but the documentary about the incident was chilling. An electrical short circuit released an A-A missile which set fire to another aircraft also preparing to take off on the other side of the flight deck and resulted in a good bit of ordinance cooking off.

Absolutely horrifying, but as Skoshi just said above, the crew's reaction was testimony to the quality of the men and their training.

That was the Forestall. John McCain was sitting in the plane that was hit. In an odd twist of fate (after miraculously surviving) he later transferred to the Oriskany which had been the site of a fire that killed 44 men the year before. He was promptly shot down and spent the rest of the war as a POW.

Seems like aircraft carrier duty is not for the feint of heart.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Navy Flight Student Crash Video, at 1 min - are those his legs? :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeRXre_FG1w

[Sternjaeger II]

jeeez, that tumbling bomb on the deck was scary :shock:

[Pips]

Massie's book is arguably one of the best on the subject of the naval arms race of the early 1900's, it's affect on diplomacy across Europe and it's ultimate contribution to sowing the seeds for war in 1914. It's more than just another book on the Battle off Jutland.

It's broad scope lays down the factors that contributed to the ill feeling that grew between Britain and Germany from the late 1890's onwards. The naval arms race between the two was much more than just a desire by Germany to seek parity with the Royal Navy, it was a direct threat to the status of Britain as the premier world power, it's trade affilations and influence.

A brilliant book.

[Herbs107]

THE family of Australian Spitfire pilot RAAF Sergeant William Smith will gather in France for a final farewell almost 70 years after he went missing over the English Channel.
Last seen engaged in a desperate dogfight with a large group of German fighters on May 9, 1942, 24-year-old Sgt Smith was listed as missing in action until October 2011.

Excavating what they believed was the wreckage of a downed Czech aircraft in Hardifort, northern France, a documentary film crew found the remains of Sgt Smith and his Spitfire.

Today, Sgt Smith, who was commended by his commanding officer for his "quiet, calm way of going about his duties" will be interred at a ceremony with full military honours at Cassel Cemetery in France.

Sgt Smith's surviving brother, Bert, is expected to travel from Australia to attend the ceremony and deliver a eulogy for his sibling, who was born at Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, and lived at Whittlesea in Victoria.


At the time of his disappearance, Sgt Smith was single and flying with an Australian squadron within the Royal Air Force. He enlisted in the RAAF in 1940, aged 22.

[Thee_oddball]

Some closure for his family, RIP

[salmo]

Sgt William Smith was stationed at Redhill in Surrey with 457 Squadron and on May 9, 1942, his Spitfire helped escort a number of Boston bombers in a raid over northern France. On their return to England the squadron was attacked by up to 30 Fock-Wulf Fw 190s midway between Mardyck and Dover. Sgt Smith, who was 24 at the time, was last sighted at 20,000ft in combat with a number of Fw 190s.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/17/article-2131075-12A1C21F000005DC-578_634x430.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/17/article-2131075-12A1C207000005DC-186_634x453.jpg
An identification tag and charms belonging to the brave pilot are pictured

R.I.P. Bill.

[baronWastelan]

The world can't thank Sgt. Smith and Australia enough for their sacrifice.

[Sutts]

Found by oil explorers, looks genuine to me. Would be very hard to fake that kind of detail.

Can any of our Polish friends talk to this guy please and see if they can find someone to recover it before it's trashed by scrappers? Would hate to see it go the same way as Lady Be Good.

Polish website but here's the translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konradus.com%2Fforum%2Fread.php %3Ff%3D13%26i%3D7154%26t%3D7154%26filtr%3D0%26page %3D1&act=url

[addman]

Found by oil explorers, looks genuine to me. Would be very hard to fake that kind of detail.

Can any of our Polish friends talk to this guy please and see if they can find someone to recover it before it's trashed by scrappers? Would hate to see it go the same way as Lady Be Good.

Polish website but here's the translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.konradus.com%2Fforum%2Fread.php %3Ff%3D13%26i%3D7154%26t%3D7154%26filtr%3D0%26page %3D1&act=url

Wow! look at that. Nice pics Sutts, it looks like the dry desert has preserved it quite well.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Interesting find and seems not to be too much robbed by looters. Would be nice to know more about this plane, how it ended up there etc. Thanks for sharing.

[DroopSnoot]

I have a soft spot for tomahawks and kittyhawks.

It appears this looks like a tomahawk, you can tell this by the air intake on the nose. By the development of the C variant the intake had been streamlined and lowered, also the nose mounted machine guns had been removed.

Tomahawk's were P40C & D's. Kittyhawk's were P40E,F & G's, Warhawks were K's upwards.

[Sutts]

I have a soft spot for Warhawks and kittyhawks ofc :)

Warhawk's were P40C & D Tomahawk II's. Kittyhawk's were P40E,F & G's.

What do you reckon this one is DroopSnoot?

[DroopSnoot]

What do you reckon this one is DroopSnoot?

Sorry sutts I made a typo ive updated my post above.

This is a tomahawk I'm betting, looks like an early one at first glance as the iconic Radiator intake is smaller. Although by the E the air intake was more streamlined the oil radiator was much larger to cope with the larger uprated engine.

Another indication is the spinner size and frontal nose area, with the Kitty is much bigger and boxy than the tomahawk:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/TR_000978_kittyhawk.jpg

In comparison:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/AWM_010926_tomahawk.jpg

(Not ideal photo I know)

[Sutts]

Sorry sutts I made a typo ive updated my post above.

This is a tomahawk I'm betting, looks like an early one at first glance as the iconic Radiator intake is smaller. Although by the E the air intake was more streamlined the oil radiator was much larger to cope with the larger uprated engine.

Another indication is the spinner size and frontal nose area, with the Kitty is much bigger and boxy than the tomahawk:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/TR_000978_kittyhawk.jpg

In comparison:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/AWM_010926_tomahawk.jpg

(Not ideal photo I know)


Thanks DroopSnoot. I can't stop looking at these pics, just love timecapsules. Hope it gets the treatment it deserves. Wonder if the pilot got home?

[DroopSnoot]

Sad thought but many pilots didnt because of the vastness of the desert. I could be wrong but i dont think the RAF had a search & resuce for the desert because of the fluid nature of the war there.

I remember watching a war film years ago with P40's, it had a Tomahawk and a Kittyhawk in it. I'm gonna go hunt for it watch this space.

[Geronimo989]

Wonder if it is restorable?

[DroopSnoot]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069953/

Never released to DVD but my father did video it, maybe i ask him to see if he still has it and convert it.

[DroopSnoot]

FOUND IT !!!

It was under its American Title, awful quality though.
ENJOY :grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sstU7qvLw7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFB8Dmu2vTI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E817ki5kuvY&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KowZk_AE7O0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy5juWld2B0&feature=relmfu

[Sternjaeger II]

Wonder if it is restorable?

oh yes, everything is restorable, and that one is in remarkable conditions as well! In fact I wouldn't restore it, we already have flyable P-40s, considering how complete it is it would be nice to put it in a museum as it is, since a restoration would get rid of the original paintjob and panels.

[ElAurens]

That is definitely a Hawk 87 RAF name Kittyhawk, not the early Hawk 81, known to the RAF as a Tomahawk.

An amazing find.

I hope they are able to secure it.

[BP_Tailspin]

Incredible Find.

http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/Sahara1.jpg

http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/Sahara2.jpg

http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/Sahara3.jpg

http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/Sahara4.jpg

http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/Sahara5.jpg

[pupaxx]

:shock::shock::shock:

[Trumper]

Wonder if it is restorable?

Yes,they've restored Spitfires with a little more than a data plate,have that and money and it could be flying in a few years.

[PeterPanPan]

Amazing! Thanks for sharing. I wonder what happened to the pilot? Great forced landing.

I also wonder just how many other well preserved wrecks there are in the world's deserts.

PPP

[BH_woodstock]

wow, that is fantastic! p40 is my favorite plane of all time and someday i will enjoy flying it in Dover.great find!maybe russian p40 in my future?soon?

[Sven]

That's awesome!

Are those bullet holes? I'm putting my money on a BF109 as the killer :twisted:

[Chromius]

Cool info, thanks for the post. Amazing no on has come across it and stripped it. Goes to show what a wasteland the desert is. As was said looks well preserved, hopefully someone who can do something with it saves and restores it.

On a side note. I still regret not attempting to buy a rusted out Original 1968 Mustang GT500 I came across in 1990 or so, it had been sitting outside since the son had left for Vietnam and died there. It was in the middle of no where as I had gotten lost getting off a highway off ramp looking for fuel for my 67 Mustang 390BB Fastback. I found a gas station and asked about it and the guy told me about the son and Vietnam and said I should offer her some money for it and get rid of it so it would not be a constant reminder to her. But I did not. Hindsight. (They sell for 50-100k now and even a frame with a serial number is worth 8k or so.)

I also came across what I believe is a complete WWII fighter engine in a small shop corner in NZ when I was living there and it was in excellent condition , I wrote all the numbers down from it and meant to pursue it further but have no idea where I wrote the info.

[JG5_emil]

Reminds me of places I've worked in Algeria

[Igo kyu]

Looks as if there's a radial cowling behind it.

Are we really sure it's not a hawk 75/P36?

[swiss]

Wow! look at that. Nice pics Sutts, it looks like the dry desert has preserved it quite well.

True, and saved money as well - you can skip the sandblasting. ;)

[ElAurens]

Looks as if there's a radial cowling behind it.

Are we really sure it's not a hawk 75/P36?

I know my Curtiss Hawks. Note the exhaust stacks on the side of the engine cowling and the scoop on top.

That is a Hawk 87.

What you are seeing in the background is the Prop, Spinner and reduction gear box that broke off in the crash.

[addman]

True, and saved money as well - you can skip the sandblasting. ;)

No kidding! Those surfaces have been sandblasted by mother nature herself, bet you can almost see your own reflection on that or put a fresh coat of mottling on it.:)

[Igo kyu]

I know my Curtiss Hawks. Note the exhaust stacks on the side of the engine cowling and the scoop on top.
Okay, yes, I see the gap where the exhasts should be, good point.

That is a Hawk 87.
If you say so. No offence intended, I was curious.

[ElAurens]

:cool:

Didn't take any offence sir.

[major_setback]

Poor pilot. I can't help wonder if he survived, and for how long.

It's in good condition, considering the time that has passed. Barely a scratch really. Looks like one of my better landings :-).

[Thee_oddball]

Poor pilot. I can't help wonder if he survived, and for how long.

It's in good condition, considering the time that has passed. Barely a scratch really. Looks like one of my better landings :-).

i was wondering the same thing, if they identify the plane I would be curios if the pilot survived and is he still alive, if he is it would be nice to see him reunited with it :)

[taildraggernut]

Well now we have video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe8CsOdoG8&feature=relmfu

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Well now we have video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFe8CsOdoG8&feature=relmfu

cool and creepy at the same time

[taildraggernut]

Yeah....something distinctly disturbing about the heavy handed dune dwellers climbing all over it.

[julien673]

Canopy close = some one dead when the plane crashed. Strange to see people forcing the cockpit.... :I

[taildraggernut]

didn't realise theres a second part, shows the people unarming it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0&feature=relmfu

[ElAurens]

It's toast now.

Sad.

[BP_Tailspin]

It's toast now.

Sad.

Sad +1

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Oh how nice.. they couldn't slide the canopy back so they just busted out the window (0:19).. Freacon tools

[Buchon]

+1

So they found a 70 years old WWII plane in very good condition and then proceed to dismantle it like a car in a junkyard ...

What is next ? pressing and melt it to make Red Bull cans ?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Thee_oddball]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0

[mazex]

+1

So they found a 70 years old WWII plane in very good condition and then proceed to dismantle it like a car in a junkyard ...

What is next ? pressing and melt it to make Red Bull cans ?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/images/icons/icon8.gif

+1 It hurts so much to see that canopy undamaged in video 1, and then busted in video 2 - and let's guess they did not open the ammo loading doors with a screwdriver but with a crowbar... Arghh...

Why don't the friggin RAF that according to the story has been contacted and identified the AC just fly down a team of experts and tell them to just get away from the wreck?

[Sternjaeger II]

well it's sad but it would have happened soon or late. Weapons and ammo have to be removed anyway for safety reasons. Wonder what's gonna happen to it now.

[Old-Banger]

Would not surprise me if we see a glut of parts on Ebay or similar (the wonderful power of the internet ;) )

[Triggaaar]

Idiots

[mazex]

well it's sad but it would have happened soon or late. Weapons and ammo have to be removed anyway for safety reasons. Wonder what's gonna happen to it now.

Well, it's been there is the desert for 70 years without anyone stealing those old .50 guns/rounds - I guess getting a working AK for a few bucks in that region is a lot easier than going out there picking up those dusted up guns ;) It just hurts seeing them tear those ammo boxes away...

It looks extremely well preserved (due to the dry climate naturally). But one can wonder what happens to aluminium that has been exposed to extreme heat every day for 70 years, and then rather harsh cold every night ;) I was in the Sahara not far from there long ago and the temperature range you go through in a 24 hour period is rather impressive...

[Flanker35M]

S!

Amateurs wrecking a rarity :(

[whoarmongar]

As someone has already said the canopy was closed so its a fair assumption the pilots remains were still inside.
The wreck therefore should be considered a war grave it just seems sacriligious to bust the canopy open and desicrate this site, irispective of the archiological importance of this find.
Even on a financial front surely the aircraft recovered complete has a far greater value than the transportable parts just sold as bits on ebay.

[taildraggernut]

It's not a foregone conclusion the pilot was dead, the aircraft looks like it made a controlled and surviveable crash landing, he may just have closed it when leaving it for some strange reason.

[mazex]

It's not a foregone conclusion the pilot was dead, the aircraft looks like it made a controlled and surviveable crash landing, he may just have closed it when leaving it for some strange reason.

I agree, a plane looking so good in terrain like that sure would need a pilot in rather good shape to handle that landing. And if the pilot was unhurt he sure would have closed the cockpit after leaving the plane... It would be rather strange after all the training to just leave it open in the desert? Then sadly one can guess that he did not make it on foot as the plane is still there without anything being salvaged - if he made it back they ought to have sent some salvage team to at least take some stuff back like instruments/guns etc...? But in the middle of a war that may have not been possible. It would be interesting to read what the RAF knows of the story as they according to the Polish site had identified the aircraft.

When looking at the Polish forum I found a link to the sad story of a B-24 lost in the same area that was not found until 1959, and the crew had lived for a week before the water ran out...

http://www.ladybegood.com/

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I have a soft spot for tomahawks and kittyhawks.

It appears this looks like a tomahawk, you can tell this by the air intake on the nose. By the development of the C variant the intake had been streamlined and lowered, also the nose mounted machine guns had been removed.

Tomahawk's were P40C & D's. Kittyhawk's were P40E,F & G's, Warhawks were K's upwards.

Ah, me too. I think it is a beautiful plane and it has something very American about it. While the stang has something of a glamour boy and Cadillac style about it the P40 seems to me to be more grass root cowboy style.

[BigC208]

I find it surprising that nobody has bought the wreck. I've seen wreckage in much worse condition sold for restoration. A p40 in original flying condition should go between 1.5 to 2 million US $. It looked like all the parts were still there in the first video, even the instrument panel looked untouched. I understand that they send the military in to expose of the weapons and ammo but it would've made more sense to treat it as an archeologic recovery. Spoons and toothbrush approach instead of crowbars. Just having the whole thing filmed professionaly by a national geographics team would've made for a nice documentary. Some governement official in Egypt dropped the ball on this one.

[DUI]

FOUND IT !!!

It was under its American Title, awful quality though.
ENJOY :grin:

Enjoyed it! Thanks a lot! :grin:

[Sternjaeger II]

As someone has already said the canopy was closed so its a fair assumption the pilots remains were still inside.
The wreck therefore should be considered a war grave it just seems sacriligious to bust the canopy open and desicrate this site, irispective of the archiological importance of this find.
Even on a financial front surely the aircraft recovered complete has a far greater value than the transportable parts just sold as bits on ebay.

That's speculation,considering the fact that the plane safely belly landed,the pilot walked out of it and probably closed the canopy shut to protect the inside: think about it,if you had to abandon your car wouldnt u still make sure it's shut?

Well, it's been there is the desert for 70 years without anyone stealing those old .50 guns/rounds - I guess getting a working AK for a few bucks in that region is a lot easier than going out there picking up those dusted up guns ;) It just hurts seeing them tear those ammo boxes away...

It looks extremely well preserved (due to the dry climate naturally). But one can wonder what happens to aluminium that has been exposed to extreme heat every day for 70 years, and then rather harsh cold every night ;) I was in the Sahara not far from there long ago and the temperature range you go through in a 24 hour period is rather impressive...

Well removing explosives and ammunition it's the first thing you do before moving a wreck,and that's whats happening: they surely know the value of their find and as we speak it wouldn't surprise me if the wreck is already on a lorry to somewhere. As for the preservation,the first thing that you notice is that most of it looks sand blasted,while the rear section of the fuselage is still retaining most of its original paint! It wouldnt surprise me if the wreck was half buried in the sand for decades. A dry hot environment is the best way to preserve such materials (think of the huge desert depots in the US),still the plane is far from being an easy restoration.

[ElAurens]

Guys, that is not a Tomahawk.

It's at least an E model, Hawk 87 series. It never had nose guns.

[Sternjaeger II]

I find it surprising that nobody has bought the wreck. I've seen wreckage in much worse condition sold for restoration. A p40 in original flying condition should go between 1.5 to 2 million US $. It looked like all the parts were still there in the first video, even the instrument panel looked untouched. I understand that they send the military in to expose of the weapons and ammo but it would've made more sense to treat it as an archeologic recovery. Spoons and toothbrush approach instead of crowbars. Just having the whole thing filmed professionaly by a national geographics team would've made for a nice documentary. Some governement official in Egypt dropped the ball on this one.

Unfortunately the warbirds archaeology and restoration business is a ruthless one: this wreck surely bears a lot of importance for the fact that is a very rare thing to find such a time capsule,but there are a million ways this thing could be handled wrong. The leaking of pictures and videos on the Internet is an example of how things could be handled wrong. I don't know yet whats gonna happen to this wreck,and even if it looks complete,it would be a shame to restore it to flying conditions,since you would still have to take it apart completely and re-build most of it,losing much of the original material,only to bring back to the skies a not so rare warbird.
As I said,I hope that it will be taken to a museum and exposed as it was found,since this is a proper archaeological find,not a restorable barn find.

[Thee_oddball]

Unfortunately the warbirds archaeology and restoration business is a ruthless one: this wreck surely bears a lot of importance for the fact that is a very rare thing to find such a time capsule,but there are a million ways this thing could be handled wrong. The leaking of pictures and videos on the Internet is an example of how things could be handled wrong. I don't know yet whats gonna happen to this wreck,and even if it looks complete,it would be a shame to restore it to flying conditions,since you would still have to take it apart completely and re-build most of it,losing much of the original material,only to bring back to the skies a not so rare warbird.
As I said,I hope that it will be taken to a museum and exposed as it was found,since this is a proper archaeological find,not a restorable barn find.

archaeological find, barn find either way they really need to get it out of there before it "disappears" in the dead of night...at the very least that is a 100,000 dollar gimme just sitting in the sand.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Looked like they were being quite gentle to me (in their own way).

During the 80's a group of enthuiasts went to recover a Spitfire from a mud flat near Broome Western Australia. They saw the cannons were still loaded so they called the RAAF. The RAAF sent in a team who, to the Horror of the Enthusiasts, stapped explosive charges to the magazines and exploded them.

Whats more important? A 70 year old wreck or the lives of the recovery team? The RAAF obviously went for the latter.

Cheers!

[DroopSnoot]

Ah, me too. I think it is a beautiful plane and it has something very American about it. While the stang has something of a glamour boy and Cadillac style about it the P40 seems to me to be more grass root cowboy style.

Totally mate yeah, kinda like the same relationship between the Spitfire and the Hurricane, Spitfire was to dazzle the girls, the hurricane was to kill the enemy.

[Sutts]

Some thoughts on the 2 videos......


The big guy at the end of vid 2 is the rich guy, the boss. My guess is he is associated with the oil drilling operation. From the look of him I think his interest extends to more than a few ebay sales.

The guy with the hood and his arm around the big guy is possibly AWOT's friend, the oil explorer who made the discovery and reported the find to someone - possibly the big guy.

Most of the guys in the 1st vid are wearing the same trousers with a stripe - employees of the big guy and have been tasked to move the aircraft.

The recovery is officially sanctioned - based on the army removing the ammo.

The guy on the wing at the end of the 2nd vid is removing a wing root access panel - this isn't souveniring behaviour - it suggests to me that they are trying to remove the wings the proper way.

The gunsight removal may be souveniring or could be an attempt to remove items that may be damaged in the recovery / lifting operation. In almost all recoveries from far off places things go missing - the 110s/Stuka/Fw190 from Russia all suffered in some way so a few pieces may well go astray.

The deep slash in front of the windscreen is new and quite worrying - why do such a thing and what tool would make such a mark with outward facing tears?

They have already made an attempt to remove the rudder (top hinge disconnected) and possibly the left elevator (access panel open).

From all this I think we have a guy in charge who knows the value of what he has. He is wealthy and has a team who work for him. I think the videos show the start of the dismantling process and these have been put out there to generate interest.

This may be an overly positive view but I hope I'm right. I do hope AWOT can get back to us with a real assessment of the future of this bird.

[DroopSnoot]

delete

[Osprey]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/TR_000978_kittyhawk.jpg


Awwww, cute. Look at the little toy P40 that they given the crew member on the right to ride on ;)

[mazex]

Unfortunately the warbirds archaeology and restoration business is a ruthless one: this wreck surely bears a lot of importance for the fact that is a very rare thing to find such a time capsule,but there are a million ways this thing could be handled wrong. The leaking of pictures and videos on the Internet is an example of how things could be handled wrong. I don't know yet whats gonna happen to this wreck,and even if it looks complete,it would be a shame to restore it to flying conditions,since you would still have to take it apart completely and re-build most of it,losing much of the original material,only to bring back to the skies a not so rare warbird.
As I said,I hope that it will be taken to a museum and exposed as it was found,since this is a proper archaeological find,not a restorable barn find.

+ 1

I really like when wrecks are displayed in museums like they where found. They had a Gladiator in the RAF museum at Hendon when I was there in the 80:ies that looked just like when it was pulled out of a lake in Finland... I guess it's still there and it was much more interesting than a restored one. Put a patch of sand and rock at Hendon and show this baby just as it looks on the videos and it will have lots of people looking at it :)

/mazex

[AKA_Tenn]

I'd like to see a spit or a p40 or any plane like that with no skin, just the skeleton, so its easy to see all the electronics and cables and such...

[Sternjaeger II]

I'd like to see a spit or a p40 or any plane like that with no skin, just the skeleton, so its easy to see all the electronics and cables and such...

well most WW2 planes are a monocoque design, so you can't really "skin" them, they would just bend and break. Some have their panels partially removed or cut to show the inside structure though, you can find them in several museums.

[swiss]

As I said,I hope that it will be taken to a museum and exposed as it was found,since this is a proper archaeological find,not a restorable barn find.

On the other hand, today, 70 years later, it's not exactly in the same condition it was when it went down. So, what is it you want to show? The power of sandstorms?
You could as well part it out or restore it.

Or build one friggin huge diorama in a museum(is that realistic?).

[AKA_Tenn]

well most WW2 planes are a monocoque design, so you can't really "skin" them, they would just bend and break. Some have their panels partially removed or cut to show the inside structure though, you can find them in several museums.

just weld it all to a steel bar or something?

[taildraggernut]

just weld it all to a steel bar or something?

Weld aluminium to steel? good luck with that.

[swiss]

Weld aluminium to steel? good luck with that.

Actually, you can - an aircraft company developed a process which made it possible - although it's super complex and only done by robots.

[Sternjaeger II]

On the other hand, today, 70 years later, it's not exactly in the same condition it was when it went down. So, what is it you want to show? The power of sandstorms?
You could as well part it out or restore it.

Or build one friggin huge diorama in a museum(is that realistic?).

It isn't, but it's in remarkably well preserved and complete conditions, modifying or changing any part of it would be a crime. It should be treated like an archaeological find, because that's what it is, and should be cleaned and preserved in its conditions. Once again, we're not looking at a rare warbird, but finding one so complete after so many years is a proper rare (if not unique) thing. It should get cleaned and go in a diorama as you said, like this P-40 here, found in shallow waters in Italy

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9062/3557208551f28093813rl4.jpg

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p40registry/images/p40-piana.jpg

http://forum.tantopergioco.it/discussion/955/p-40l-di-piana-delle-orme/p1

just weld it all to a steel bar or something?

you wouldn't be able to that easily, it's the design of the thing that is meant to be covered with "structural skin", so even if you created a framework of steel, it would be so big that it would detract from the original looks. Monocoque construction was meant to make lighter planes, but it also meant a more structurally fragile airframe.

[Sutts]

I wonder if we have any Egyptians among our ranks? Would love to hear what those guys in the vids are saying.

[Sternjaeger II]

I wonder if we have any Egyptians among our ranks? Would love to hear what those guys in the vids are saying.

any Arabic speaker might do as well.

[zodiac]

Hello fellow air enthousiasts!

I hope you like some pilot culture to? I was wondering if anybody knows if the picture I attached to my post depicts some kind of pilot ritual. The picture is from a set of photo's from RAF 609 squadron i've found on the internet. Because there is no further information with the photos, I can't tell if it was a practical joke or if it's really some kind of ritual for RAF pilots.

Yesterday I've heard another funny story about a pilot walking on the ceiling of the mess, in a documentary about operation Jericho (a very good one to). I assume that it must atleast have something of a purpose (it can't be just for fun, can it? :) ).

So if somebody knows more about what's happening on that photograph: feel free to share your knowledge. And I think there is still some place in this thread to post other pilot rituals to...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAlaPEfcX2Q

[Sternjaeger II]

Peeing on the plane's wheels or tail wheel before takeoff was quite a common one. I've heard of pilots not wanting to be photographed before a mission,not celebrating the end of a tour before the last mission..

Pilots were/are a superstitious bunch: I once was going to an airfield with a military pilot who slammed on the brakes and pulled over because a black cat had crossed the road.. I thought he was pulling my leg but he actually waited for someone else to pass before he got back on the road!

[engadin]

The pilot got lost due to a wrong Lonely Planet map consulted upside down. The rest is history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJZ5x-zUx28&list=PLDEB9C0BF4CF7359B&annotation_id=annotation_541168&feature=iv

[Thee_oddball]

nice read
http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-air-war-over-iraq.htm

[palker4]

well most WW2 planes are a monocoque design, so you can't really "skin" them, they would just bend and break. Some have their panels partially removed or cut to show the inside structure though, you can find them in several museums.

Well i have seen MiG-21 that had most almost all of its skin removed on one side of the fuselage. I think that most aircraft would survive such treatment

[taildraggernut]

Mig-21 is not a stressed skin construction.....well it kind of is, but it's built using heavier and stiffer formers and spars which are much more self supporting.

Maybe a Hurricane or other fabric covered aircraft can be displayed that way, but a typical WWII all metal airframe is a monocoque (stressed skin) and would deffinately bend and wobble with no skin on.

[T_O_A_D]

I'd like to see a spit or a p40 or any plane like that with no skin, just the skeleton, so its easy to see all the electronics and cables and such...

Dayton Ohio Air Force Museum has this Sabre.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420452@N03/1278103253/in/set-72157601765630342
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420452@N03/1278984930/in/set-72157601765630342/

[Thee_oddball]

Dayton Ohio Air Force Museum has this Sabre.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420452@N03/1278103253/in/set-72157601765630342
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420452@N03/1278984930/in/set-72157601765630342/

TOAD! how are ya?

[fruitbat]

nice read
http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-air-war-over-iraq.htm

Cool thanks for posting:cool:

[BadAim]

I wonder if we have any Egyptians among our ranks? Would love to hear what those guys in the vids are saying.

I trust that it was something to the effect of "What a wonderful pile of scrap metal, it must be a gift from Allah! Where did Abdul put the saws-all? Sorry boys, but it will be a miracle if this find survives the next few days. :(

[Thee_oddball]

I trust that it was something to the effect of "What a wonderful pile of scrap metal, it must be a gift from Allah! Where did Abdul put the saws-all? Sorry boys, but it will be a miracle if this find survives the next few days. :(

Simple solution...England declares war on Egypt :eek: that should get the export paper work pushed through rather quickly :)

p.s i still want to know about the pilot and did he survive

[T_O_A_D]

Good OB!

You?

PM me.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Good OB!
wow

Your Still Alive?!?!? ;)

[MB_Avro_UK]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

[Sutts]

The pilot got lost due to a wrong Lonely Planet map consulted upside down. The rest is history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJZ5x-zUx28&list=PLDEB9C0BF4CF7359B&annotation_id=annotation_541168&feature=iv


That's Tvrdi isn't it?

[Richie]

I think Wolf Biscuits did a movie about Iraq 1941




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGR0QhL_aPI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDNStW4ZdrY&feature=relmfu

[Sternjaeger II]

Mig-21 is not a stressed skin construction.....well it kind of is, but it's built using heavier and stiffer formers and spars which are much more self supporting.

Maybe a Hurricane or other fabric covered aircraft can be displayed that way, but a typical WWII all metal airframe is a monocoque (stressed skin) and would deffinately bend and wobble with no skin on.

^ what he said.

[palker4]

^ what he said.

Whatever I guess you are the expert. What idiot would used stressed skin construction on supersonic jet makes no sense.

[Krt_Bong]

Has anyone noted the position of the Throttle? seems like it's nearly 3/4 to Full.

[335th_GRAthos]

Still reading the book, I found two very interesting passages regardig the sinking of Lusitania (one of the reasons that caused America's entry to WW I):

Danger to British trade, the Admiralty believed, would come from fast German liners converted to armed merchant cruisers. Accordingly, the Admiralty subsidized the building of Lusitania and her sisters; in return, Cunard agreed to make the vessels available to the government upon request; their obvious use would be as fast British armed merchant cruisers assigned to hunt down their German equivalents.
The Cunard ships, therefore, were designed to carry as many as twelve 6-inch guns; the necessary magazines, shell elevators, and revolving gun rings in the deck were installed during construction.
When war broke out, Mauretania and Aquitania were requisitioned but Lusitania was left in Cunard service.
On September 24, 1914, the Admiralty officially informed the ship line that Lusitania’s role would be to continue running a highspeed
service between Liverpool and New York with the Admiralty having first priority on her cargo space

In fact, there was reason for concern, but it was one of which Lusitania’s passengers were unaware. The ship’s cargo space was—just as the Germans claimed—being used to carry American munitions to Britain.
As Lusitania prepared for her last voyage, 1,248 cases of 3-inch artillery shells—four shells to a case—and 4,927 boxes of rifle ammunition—each case containing 1,000 rounds and the total weighing 173 tons, which included ten tons of explosive powder—had been placed in the liner’s cargo.
Whether this cargo exploded when a torpedo hit the ship has been the subject of many years of passionate, highly technical, and still unresolved debate.


Over 170tons of high explosives on a passenger ship! Good example how little significance "collateral damage" has, since...

And the "juicy" part:
Two British publications, the 1914 editions of Jane’s Fighting Ships and Brassey’s Naval Annual, were standard issue aboard every German U-boat, and both publications placed Lusitania in the category of “Royal Navy Reserved Merchant Cruiser”—in effect, an armed liner.
U-20 also carried a German merchant marine officer whose duty was to help identify any merchant ship targets whose nationality was in doubt. Watching the approaching steamer through the periscope, this civilian officer became increasingly certain of what he saw: “Either the Lusitania or the Mauretania, both armed cruisers used for carrying troops,” he told Schwieger. (In fact, at that moment, Mauretania was 150 miles away at Avonmouth, taking aboard 5,000 soldiers for the Dardanelles.)
Schwieger had in his sights what he considered a legitimate target.

And the rest is history.

~S~

[smurf-oly]

I didn't see this link posted anywhere in this thread.... many more photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink#

[kilosierra]

A very good book!

I bought it, when I started to play "Jutland" from Stormeagle Studios. If you are interested in WWI Naval warfare, I recommend also Campbells "Jutland - An Analysis of the Fighting".


I tend to buy books for my games, when I feel I don`t know enoguh about the period of time. F.e. I have the whole "Black Cross Red Star" series because of Il-2.

[BadAim]

That's great, thanks for sharing. Too bad there is nothing in there to sqpecifically identify plane and pilot. I pray this treasure falls into the right hands.

[Sternjaeger II]

Whatever I guess you are the expert. What idiot would used stressed skin construction on supersonic jet makes no sense.

I guess I am yes ;-)

Seriously, to be 100% accurate what we have on WW2 and modern fighters is a semi-monocoque construction, where the combination of stringers, bulkheads and stressed skin makes for the shape and robustness of the aircraft.
The reason is mainly because you save a lot of weight and material by doing things this way: whilst it's unthinkable to do a supersonic fuselage on a traditional Warren truss & canvas method, the use of an all metal structure needs to be thought after in a practical and weight saving manner.

There are interesting transitional hybrids, which were a good compromise between performance and structural ruggedness, such as the Hurricane and the S.79 Sparviero. They both sported a mixed solution of tubular frame covered with canvas/metal and semi-monocoque parts, like the semi-monocoque metal wing of the Hurri or the wooden box construction of the Sparviero's wing.

Some other designs weren't particularly happy, but proved to be very rugged, like the Vickers Wellington's geodetic structure.

Another fantastic example of non hortodox aeronautical engineering is the structure of the DeHavilland Mosquito, almost completely made of a wood sandwich which can be imagined as a sort of pre-historic carbon fibre.

[Sternjaeger II]

I didn't see this link posted anywhere in this thread.... many more photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink#

thanks for the extra link! A lot more pictures and interesting details coming up! Unfortunately they've already tampered enough with that poor relic, let's hope it finds a home soon before it gets vandalised for good..

[mazex]

Great images in that link... How about this:

Original image:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1815/obraz151pk.jpg

Edit to show the possible hints of HS-B
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9521/obraz151edited.jpg

And a 260 sqadron desert P-40... Wrong type though (no Allison):
http://www.aviationartstore.com/images/print_P-40_edwards.jpg

Speculation ;) It definately is a B though... But we want the squadron letters and my HS feels more vague :)

He he, doing more web research, naturally someone did an IL2 skin for this AC:

http://asisbiz.com/il2/P-40-RAF-SAAF/RAF-260Sqn-HS-B-FR350-Edwards.html

And someone restored it or painted another one ;)
http://www.airfighters.com/datas/photos/th650/935-117_p_40n_c_fvwc_raf_fr350_hs_b_raaf_a29_414_.jpg

And it was scrapped in 1944 as I understand it :) More theories?

And in this (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=1882370) thread at some forum more people speculate on HS-B (and the pilot "Stocky Edwards" is obviously still alive - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Francis_Edwards - someone got to ask him if he ditched a plane and forgot about it ;))

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=1882370

[Sternjaeger II]

well at least we know it's 100% a Hawk 87A-3!

Historians will have their good work to do, needless to say it would help to know the exact location!

*prepares lorry just in case...*

[taildraggernut]

I think mazex is prob right with the ID letters it really does look like HSB, theres a pic of a battery label with a date of 1941, could this be an HSB from before the referenced picture dated 1943?

[Sternjaeger II]

it's a bit of a long shot, they should have taken pics of data plates in the cockpit really.

[mazex]

well at least we know it's 100% a Hawk 87A-3!

Historians will have their good work to do, needless to say it would help to know the exact location!

*prepares lorry just in case...*

And a Hawk 87A-3 fits the early "fat" roundels (Kittyhawk Mk IA - lost in 1942 maybe?)... Interesting when all will be sorted out :)

[DroopSnoot]

I think mazex is prob right with the ID letters it really does look like HSB, theres a pic of a battery label with a date of 1941, could this be an HSB from before the referenced picture dated 1943?

That would make it a Tomahawk not a Kittyhawk then surely, As far as i know there were later versions of the IIb that had no nose mounted mgs which would correspond to that line of thought.

[engadin]

Sutts, you have a private message.

[mazex]

He he, this was fun...

While browsing this list of the Desert Air Force:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Air_Force

To check the squadron codes for all the 1942 Kittyhawk I:s I was looking at 2 Squadron SAAF that was a suspect flying Kittyhawks in the desert of 1942... When looking at this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Squadron_SAAF

I scrolled and to my amazement coming from Sweden they currently fly JAS-39 Gripen :) It's a small world (even though I knew we sold Gripens to South Africa).

Still - HS feels like the best bet anyway...

From some quick research - the other squadron flying Kittyhawks for that time frame in Sahara where (omitting the USAAF naturally):

Code - Sqadron
---------------------------------
DB - No. 2 SAAF (now flying JAS-39 ;))
CA - No. 3 SAAF
KJ - No. 4 SAAF
GL - No. 5 SAAF
GA - No 112. RAF
LD - No. 250 RAF (Kittyhawk IIA though)
HS - No. 260 RAF
OK/DJ - No. 450 RAF

[ElAurens]

That would make it a Tomahawk not a Kittyhawk then surely, As far as i know there were later versions of the IIb that had no nose mounted mgs which would correspond to that line of thought.

No.

An 87A series is a P-40E, which makes it a Kittyhawk. Just look at the thing. It's not a Hawk 81. The spinner, engine cowling, and wing gun locations are all totally wrong for a Tomahawk.

No Hawk 81s (Tomahawks in RAF service) were delivered with the nose guns deleted. What happend was that the RAF was having troubles with the change to the Colt manufactured .50 syncronised nose guns, so the training units that had the aircraft at the time often did not use them.

[Thee_oddball]

there's a chance(if that plane is from the 260th) that that plane we are looking at might have been shot down by a legend... Hans-Joachim Marseille

Opponents were Kittyhawks I from No. 260 Squadron RAF and Tomahawks IIB from No. 2 Squadron SAAF and No. 4 Squadron SAAF. These units had the following losses in this engagement: three Tomahawks and one Kittyhawk missing (one pilot later returned wounded), two Kittyhawks and two Tomahawks crash landed after aerial combat, and one heavily damaged and one lightly damaged Kittyhawk. On the German side I.JG 27 reported five P-40s, II./JG 27 three P-40s shot down. The combat reports indicate that Marseille's opponents were Kittyhawks from No. 260 Squadron RAF. His opponents were Squadron Leader Hanbury who crash landed and Sergeant Wareham who was killed in action.[

there are more 260th pilots listed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

[BadAim]

I only would argue that this aircraft has no apparent battle damage whatsoever, and also that it was found some 200 miles from any known action. (I have a friend in the area) I'd rather suspect that the bloke got lost and ran out of fuel. Of course I admit that I'm only speculating and that the only way we will ever learn the true story is to identify the particular craft.

That said, you definitely have a sharp eye Oddball, I never saw that now quite obvious B on the fuselage.

[Thee_oddball]

is this the plate with the info we need?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-floeIPXORTw/T5Zu3llEjzI/AAAAAAAAAMw/8ODaTFjkgMQ/s640/Obraz%2520191.jpg

here are the rest of the pics
https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink

The Egyptian government have been informed by the military. The army took only ammunition of the airplane to not hit the wrong hands. At the moment the plane is in the same state as in the movie. there is practically no possibility of the devastation of this plane because it is army complex - patrolled by the army.

The plane was found incidentally - do not do the explorations..

in mid-April, I'll try to go to the place where the plane - it will put more videos.

[Thee_oddball]

I only would argue that this aircraft has no apparent battle damage whatsoever, and also that it was found some 200 miles from any known action. (I have a friend in the area) I'd rather suspect that the bloke got lost and ran out of fuel. Of course I admit that I'm only speculating and that the only way we will ever learn the true story is to identify the particular craft.

That said, you definitely have a sharp eye Oddball, I never saw that now quite obvious B on the fuselage.

not me sir, Mazex saw it :)

[Thee_oddball]

No.

An 87A series is a P-40E, which makes it a Kittyhawk. Just look at the thing. It's not a Hawk 81. The spinner, engine cowling, and wing gun locations are all totally wrong for a Tomahawk.

No Hawk 81s (Tomahawks in RAF service) were delivered with the nose guns deleted. What happend was that the RAF was having troubles with the change to the Colt manufactured .50 syncronised nose guns, so the training units that had the aircraft at the time often did not use them.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-m-bQLIirczk/T5ZhhhXlgHI/AAAAAAAAAMg/_dnqNsy7hBA/s640/Obraz%2520142.jpg

[BadAim]

not me sir, Mazex saw it :)

LOL! I apparently do not have such a sharp eye. :)

[BadAim]

I went through every photo, but I didn't see anything useful. Of course I don't have a very good track record in this department, so........

Granted, the type is definitely identified, this is for sure a Kittyhawk IA. I've been doing some research, and we can narrow things down a bit, but even if we had a tail number there is no 100% guarantee of the full story

[baronWastelan]

Amazing to think about all the machines, people, training and talent that came together to make this all happen!

4/24/2012 By Cpl. Brian Adam Jones http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcascherrypoint/Pages/GRUNKE120424.aspx#.T5ea66t2SwB
MARINE CORPS AIR STATION CHERRY POINT, N.C. — The magnitude of the moment came to him over the radio, in a hoarse whisper.
Maj. J. Eric Grunke sat in the cockpit of an AV-8B Harrier at just past midnight March 22, 2011, thousands of feet above the Mediterranean Sea, and speeding toward the Libyan coastline.

Grunke was serving as a Harrier pilot assigned to the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit on the third day of Operation Odyssey Dawn, an international effort to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 to protect the Libyan people from Col. Moammar Gadhafi’s regime.

Tonight, Grunke was on a rescue mission.

Whispering into his radio from a hiding place on the ground was Air Force Maj. Kenneth Harney. His Air Force F-15 Strike Eagle had just crashed in the open desert near the Libyan city of Benghazi.

The 26th MEU’s Marines aboard the USS Kearsarge launched a Tactical Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel, or TRAP, mission to rescue the pilot. Grunke was to provide close air support to protect the downed pilot until help arrived.

Due in part to his actions in Libya, particularly on that day, The Marine Corps Aviation Association named Grunke the Marine Aviator of the Year, recognizing him as the pilot who made the most outstanding contribution to Marine aviation over that past year.

Grunke’s contribution came in the form of a dynamic mission over a short amount of time where he dropped two 500-pound bombs on tactical vehicles pursuing the downed pilot and identified a suitable landing zone for the MV-22B Osprey that would make the pickup. Just about three hours prior to all of this, Grunke had been aboard the USS Kearsarge preparing for another night of enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya.

“We were preparing for another armed reconnaissance mission where we would go out and look for targets,” Grunke said. “Word started to filter in that, potentially, an F-15 had crashed. We weren’t sure why, whether it was enemy air fire or a malfunction or what, so we started to determine, okay we’re going to have to launch the TRAP package to go rescue the pilot and his [weapons systems officer] – it was a two-seat F-15E.”

The weapons systems officer, Air Force Capt. Tyler Stark, ejected with Harney as the jet went down but was quickly rescued by friendly rebel sympathizers. Harney, however, was on the run.

“The pilot … had hit the ground, he was alive, he was on his radio, he was trying to get away from up to five or six tactical vehicles [that were] pursuing after him, and he was just trying to get out of the open desert and away,” said Grunke.

The Marines aboard the USS Kearsarge launched the full TRAP package to rescue him – two AV-8B Harriers, two MV-22B Ospreys, and two CH-53E Super Stallions. A Marine Corps KC-130J Hercules joined the fight to provide aerial refueling.

“When we launch the TRAP, it’s an all or none kind of thing,” Grunke said.

Lt. Col. Shawn Hermley, who commanded the Harrier detachment assigned to the 26th MEU, said Grunke recently certified as an airborne forward air controller and was uniquely qualified to execute the rescue mission.

“I told him if we do this, I want you out there in the lead,” Hermley said.

After Grunke took off from the deck of the USS Kearsarge, he spoke to the command and control center and learned deadly force was authorized to protect the downed pilot.

He said that was all he needed to know, as his AV-8B Harrier was equipped with two 500-pound laser-guided bombs.

At the helm of the attack jet, speeding toward the Libyan desert en route to save a fellow service member from certain danger, Grunke switched over to the downed pilot’s radio frequency.

“I just start listening to gain an idea of what’s going on down there, and I can hear him, wind rustling and him whispering into his radio,” Grunke said. “At that point it all became real to me, listening to the guy whispering on the radio. This is no longer North Carolina, this is no longer practice – that’s really a guy down there scared for his life.”

Grunke arrived overhead and took over as on-scene commander, relieving an Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon. The downed pilot radioed that he was fleeing vehicles with searchlights. He could hear barking dogs and gunfire.

“Within five minutes of being on station, I’m able to get my targeting pod sensor on this pursuing vehicle,” Grunke said. “I tell the pilot, ‘Okay, I can see the guys … I’ve got two 500-pound bombs, do you need them?’ He says, ‘Yes, yes I do.’”

As he maneuvered to a point where he could release and guide the munitions to the pursuing vehicle, Grunke heard the airman make one more request.

“He comes up and actually crying on the radio he says, ‘tell my wife I love her.’ And again, just underlying the realness of the situation I said, ‘don’t worry, I’m going to have a bomb on the deck in one minute,’” Grunke said. “I released one bomb, and I’m able to guide it for 50 seconds or so, all the way to a direct impact.”

Hermley described Grunke’s attack on the vehicle as “impressive.” He said looking through the Harrier’s targeting pod is a lot like looking through a drinking straw.

“The dropping of the bomb isn’t the hard part, it’s an attack we do all the time,” Hermley said. “But he was going after a moving target, and one that was tracking toward his friendly. Any pilot in our detachment could drop a bomb, but doing it under pretty high stress circumstances, with that pilot talking to him, fearing for his life, [Grunke’s] actions on the TRAP were monumental.”

Grunke dropped one more bomb on another vehicle pursing the pilot, finally delivering the message to the assailants on the ground to leave Harney alone.

“At that point I gave my sole attention to trying to locate a suitable landing zone for the Ospreys that launched from the ship a few minutes after I did,” Grunke said.

Noticing a road not far from the creek bed where Harney was hiding, Grunke generated a coordinate for the location and passed it over the radio to the Osprey pilots.

The Osprey, complete with a rescue team of Recon Marines, landed less than 50 meters from the pilot’s hiding place.

“They found him very quickly, to the point where he just ran in the back of the aircraft as soon as it landed,” Hermley said. “The Marines barely even had the chance to get out.”

Grunke said he shook Harney’s hand back aboard the USS Kearsarge, making a great ending for an extraordinary mission.

Hermley said Grunke’s role in the TRAP mission was pivotal. He not only defended the downed pilot from aggressors, he provided invaluable reconnaissance to the rest of the rescue force.

“The hardest part of a mission like that is knowing where the survivor is, and in this instance he had moved about three miles,” Hermley said.

“Fortunately for us, every MEU practices a TRAP, because it’s a ballet. You’re working off of a moving platform – the boat, and you have to have everything moving at the right time,” Hermley said. “The key to the TRAP is ‘how fast can you execute it?’ We had assets airborne within the hour.”

Hermley said as Marines, and especially as part of a Marine Air-Ground Task Force aboard a MEU, everyone involved knows they have to react quickly to a mission they hadn’t planned on.

“[The Marine Corps Aviator of the Year award] was well deserved. The highlight for him was his performance and execution of that TRAP. He quite possibly saved that pilot’s life,” Hermley said. “But there was a lot of stuff behind the scenes as well. He was one of my best advisors; he worked a lot of long hours figuring out the best way to execute that mission in Libya”

“It was obvious that we had made a huge difference in liberating this area specifically, a stark contrast from night one where [the Libyan people] were essentially under [Gadhafi’s] thumb. I could see visible results of what we did,” Grunke said. “Night one, [Gadhafi’s forces] were essentially on the footsteps of Benghazi. Night by night by night, we just continuously pushed this line back.”

Grunke described the operation in Libya as the chance of a lifetime for an AV-8B Harrier pilot.

“Pinnacle of my career, really, for an attack pilot to be the forward edge, the tip of the spear, to be operating from amphibious shipping; it was absolutely the pinnacle of what I’ve done so far,” Grunke said. “I am so privileged and humbled to be receiving this award, especially since it will be awarded as Marine aviation celebrates its centennial.”

[Viking]

There is a lot, and I mean a LOT, that can be said about the NATO war on Libya and this man's participation in it but I will not today because the truth have many martyrs and the lies non.
Viking

[KAV]

is this the plate with the info we need?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-floeIPXORTw/T5Zu3llEjzI/AAAAAAAAAMw/8ODaTFjkgMQ/s640/Obraz%2520191.jpg

here are the rest of the pics
https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink

Were is that text qoute from in your post ?

[chantaje]

the truth is the first victim.. they take out ghadaffi for the oil and now the common libyas are suffering the militias abuses(and the "smart" bombs during the campaign). its a shame that "democracy or freedom" are used as an excuse by the war profiteers.
3rd neocolonial "intervention" of the century?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdpuHald-5k

Mr obama "some nations can turn a blind eye to atrocities to other countries, we are diferent" sure thing! you sponsor them nice guy

[carguy_]

Wonderful find! Reminds me of the 109 found in Russia few years ago (complete with pilot remains, 20mm hole in pilot seat).

[Sternjaeger II]

..but above all who the feck is on charge of the acronyms in the US Armed Forces!? A rescue mission called TRAP?! :shock:

[Sutts]

Wonderful find! Reminds me of the 109 found in Russia few years ago (complete with pilot remains, 20mm hole in pilot seat).

Don't remember that one carguy. Got any links or piccies please?

[Kongo-Otto]

Don't remember that one carguy. Got any links or piccies please?

Maybe carguy means this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VpSDxWTnI

[baronWastelan]

..but above all who the feck is on charge of the acronyms in the US Armed Forces!? A rescue mission called TRAP?! :shock:

What did you have in mind? Combat Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel? :?

[Kongo-Otto]

Next one found
Heinkel HE 219 found off the Danish Coast:
http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/ECE1605691/heinkel-he-219-found-in-denmark/

[Sternjaeger II]

What did you have in mind? Combat Recovery of Aircraft and Personnel? :?

lol why does it have to be an acronym at all costs? I wouldn't be impressed if I was sitting in a briefing room discussing the details of my TRAP or CRAP mission to be honest lol

[Thee_oddball]

Were is that text qoute from in your post ?

go to youtube site, its in the comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9LsK74J_W0

[swiss]

Maybe carguy means this one:


No pilot remains, he survived. The plane was abandoned later. The holes are most likely caused by a German grenade, trying to render the plane useless before they took a run.

[[RS]Boomer]

Over the past few months I have taken pictures of the ISS from my phone and put together a little slide show. I hope you enjoy. And sorry for the low resolution... Blame NASA for not putting HD cameras on the ISS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXobNHX3Kkk

[WTE_Galway]

Still reading the book, I found two very interesting passages regardig the sinking of Lusitania (one of the reasons that caused America's entry to WW I):



More correctly " (one of the reasons used to justify America's entry to WW I to the American public) "

Generally speaking over the last century or so the American people have been far less inclined to get involved in other peoples wars than those they put in power.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Thanks 5./JG27.Farber


:)

~S~

:confused:

[swiss]

I know someone who's scheduled to go up there next year.

Not sure sure if that's a privilege or something only a mad man can look forward to.

[[RS]Boomer]

I know someone who's scheduled to go up there next year.

Not sure sure if that's a privilege or something only a mad man can look forward to.

Id say its a privilege a mad man looks forward to. I would jump at the opportunity to go up to the ISS... Now if I had to be there for more than a month, I would be a little worried.

[335th_GRAthos]

:confused:

Thanks for posting all this :)

[raaaid]

i tried to research info on hartmans breakdowns but theres none

[Kongo-Otto]

i tried to research info on hartmans breakdowns but theres none

who said he had them?

[5./JG27.Farber]

who said he had them?

It is skirted upon in the blonde knight of Germany. If true or not, who could blame him? 11 years in Soviet Prison camps...

[Kongo-Otto]

It is skirted upon in the blonde knight of Germany. If true or not, who could blame him? 11 years in Soviet Prison camps...

I don't have that book, so i didn't know that.
The only Pilots i did read about Breakdowns the Luftwaffe called it "abgeflogen"(today we call it PTSD) were Nowotny and Marseille.

[Kongo-Otto]

No pilot remains, he survived.
Oops sorry :oops:


The plane was abandoned later. The holes are most likely caused by a German grenade, trying to render the plane useless before they took a run.

I don't think that the whole was made by an Hand Grenade it doesn't fit the splinter and explosion pattern, imho it looks more like a whole by a 20mm or some similiar caliber which went thru without detonation.

[bongodriver]

I don't think that the whole was made by an Hand Grenade it doesn't fit the splinter and explosion pattern, imho it looks more like a whole by a 20mm or some similiar caliber which went thru without detonation.


Did you notice the peppering holes in the fuselage just below the canopy area, looks like it was associated with the hole in the wing.

[raaaid]

oh i didnt know marseille had a nervous breakdown as well

this seems to be covered up due to hero worship

[csThor]

Hartmann didn't exactly break down, he merely drank far too much. :-?

[Bewolf]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/apr/26/german-warplane-denmark-video?INTCMP=SRCH

of the coast of Denmark.

Imho, awesome news, I love that aircraft for the looks alone. Good to have one in Europe now. (and hopefully a restauration awaits)

http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/ECE1605691/heinkel-he-219-found-in-denmark/

Danish divers and the Aviation History Society (DFS) of Denmark have recovered a rare World War II German night-fighter off the northern Jutland peninsula and are to restore the aircraft.

The only known other full example of the aircraft is said to be in the United States, where it was taken following the war after it and two other of the aircraft were confiscated by US Army Intelligence Service from the Grove Air Force Base in Jutland, Denmark.

One of the more advanced aircraft to be built during WWII, it was the first military aircraft in the world to be equipped with ejection seats and was equipped with an effective VHF intercept radar designed to seek out and attack allied bombers. It is also said to be one of the first operational aircraft with cockpit pressurisation.

Found in the Tannis Bay between Hirtshals and Skagen in Denmark, the plane’s tricycle landing gear gave it away.

“Landing gear is just like a fingerprint on humans, but I found it difficult to believe that we had such a rare aircraft in Denmark,” says DFS Chairman and aircraft archaeologist Ib Lødsen adding the recovery was like waiting for a Christmas present.

“It was so exciting. You never know whether you’re going to get what you want. I was a little disappointed,” he adds, saying that wires to the aircraft’s instruments had been cut, suggesting that someone had tampered with the aircraft previously.

The only parts of the aircraft that remain to be found are one of its two engines and part of the tail, which probably included the aircraft number, which in turn would help determine why the aircraft ended up in Tannis Bay.

The aircraft is now to be transported to the Garrison Museum in Aalborg where it is to be restored and exhibited.

“People interested in aircraft will come from all over to see it. It’s something of a sensation,” Lødsen says.

Only some 294 of the aircraft, which was nicknamed Eagle-Owl, were ever built for the Luftwaffe. The Heinkel HE-219 in the United States, which until now was said to be the last existing aircraft of its type, was flown from Denmark to Cherbourg in France in 1945 where it was packed aboard the British aircraft carrier HMS Reaper and taken to America as part of the Lusty intelligence operation to glean technical information from German aircraft.

The exhibit is currently at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum annex at Washington Dulles Airport.

[JG52Uther]

Excellent! Looks like a long restoration job ahead though!

[SlipBall]

Seems every week a new formally lost one is found...excellent!

[Sokol1]

This 109 in YT is "Swiblo Lake" 109, damage by flak, crash in no man's land, german fire in then with machine guns.

http://historicaviationjournalandmarketrepo.blogspot.com. br/2010/11/for-sale-messerschmitt-bf-109-lake-find.html

Sokol1

[kilosierra]

Wow,

one "Uhu", having been a Radar guy in my military time back in 89, I always was fascinated by the beginning of electronic warfare.

I have to monitor the restauration closely, as it`s only a around 200 km drive from here, well worth watching one "Uhu" in it`s full glory. Love that bird.

THX for posting!

Karsten

[Kongo-Otto]

Pictures from the salvage:
http://www.danas-have.dk/He219.htm

[Kongo-Otto]

oh i didnt know marseille had a nervous breakdown as well

this seems to be covered up due to hero worship

Raaaid we are talking about PTSD and not about Nevous Breakdowns which is a different clinical picture.
Novotny and Marseille clearly showed signs of PTSD and it looks like Hartmann had it too.

[raaaid]

there are many names for it but its the same thing:

Hartmann was downed for the fifth time, having been rammed by an LaGG-3. Following this incident, he suffered a nervous breakdown and was sent back to Germany on convalescent leave.

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/aircraft/german/luftwaffeaces.htm

edit:

On 25 May 1943, when Hartmann was downed for the fifth time - this time when he was rammed by or collided with a LaGG-3 - he suffered a nervous breakdown, and was sent back to Germany to rest. Back home his father told him that he was convinced that Germany had no chance to win the war. Hartmann returned to the Eastern Front in June 1943 determined to prove that his father was wrong.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/hartm/hartm1.htm

[swiss]

Let me guess, sure you think you're the reincarnation of one of them, right?

[raaaid]

well i dont BELIEVE that

but im haunted at night by dreams in whcih im an experten, and my personality actually fits marseilles

aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life

hey maybe i shot you down and from there your feelings

well i learnt the lesson now i fight but dont shoot

according my dreams i ve been:

an alien who would dogfight around a blackhhole, a samurai, an american independency soldier, a car thieve and expert driver from bank robberries oh and an experten

[JG52Krupi]

well i dont BELIEVE that

but im haunted at night by dreams in whcih im an experten, and my personality actually fits marseilles

aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life

hey maybe i shot you down and from there your feelings

well i learnt the lesson now i fight but dont shoot

according my dreams i ve been:

an alien who would dogfight around a blackhhole, a samurai, an american independency soldier, a car thieve and expert driver from bank robberries oh and an experten


Lol I don't recall marselle being known for making wildly inaccurate theories with no evidence to back them up, from what I have heard about him he was a bit of a playboy that flouted authority and was clearly a good tactician!

Hmmm I am still struggiling to see the similarities ;)

[raaaid]

oh he was misfit getting in all trouble by being himself, thats why he got sent to afrika

as i see it me and others who probably hang around in here are actually aliens who are raincarnating within humanity to boost evolution so earth stops being a getho and humans take the next evolutionary leap

edit:

i wonder i see an amzing resemblance what do you think:

http://i.rankingfamosos.com/imagenes/famosos/20101222/fernando-alonso-5.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/antonio.jpg

could i have the pilot abilities in my genes i got several world records in driving games

[swiss]

and my personality actually fits marseilles

I knew it.
roflamo.


aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life


Try to find reincarnated farmers, then come back again.

hey maybe i shot you down and from there your feelings

I dont believe in "souls", there is no reincarnation or life after death.


an alien who would dogfight around a blackhhole, a samurai, an american independency soldier, a car thieve and expert driver from bank robberries oh and an experten

Only the cool jobs,huh?
Makes me wonder what fate found you guilty of it put in you such a sorry existence this time.

btw: What's your definition of an "expert"?

[swiss]

i wonder i see an amzing resemblance what do you think:


Where are your "bullet-proof" glasses?

[raaaid]

oh come on dond blame me for being normal a majority of people according my poll has pondered to be a wwii fighter in a past life

[swiss]

oh come on dond blame me for being normal a majority of people according my poll has pondered to be a wwii fighter in a past life

what you reckon?

[raaaid]

also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

and he was crazy nobody wanted to be his wingman :)

[swiss]

also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

Sudeten or Czech?

[JG52Krupi]

also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)

and he was crazy nobody wanted to be his wingman :)

Wasn't it the complete opposite he was well liked by his fellow pilots iirc.

[6S.Manu]

Wasn't it the complete opposite he was well liked by his fellow pilots iirc.
Nobody wanted to be his wingman because he was an egocentric and irresponsible "pilot". The "man" could be different.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Well there goes the thread...

[Kongo-Otto]

also marseille was a bohemian, im a bohemian :)


yes he was a bohemian, but you are not bohemian you're totally nuts. Big difference.

[raaaid]

according my dr im clinically sane so dont want to know more than a doctor

i just happen to be eccentric as marseille

who would fly in formation with the foe but a total wacko

[Kongo-Otto]

aslo i made a poll and 80% of people have pondered to be wwii fighter in past life


Yeah sure and if you make a poll "how many of my fellow Braindeads were Roman Emperors in a former life" you will surely get also 80%.
Your Poll equals PoH = Pile of Horse dung!

[Kongo-Otto]

according my dr im clinically sane so dont want to know more than a doctor


Is your doctor a real person or is he one of the voices inside your head?

[raaaid]

youre disrespectfull with the majorities opinion

is like when i made a poll of who had had a dream that later happened

a big majority voted yes but this society and way of thinking is imposed by a bully minority

[raaaid]

Is your doctor a real person or is he one of the voices inside your head?

my psichiatrist is my sister and she aint crazy like 99% of shrinks

i dont hear voices nor have hallucinations i just happen to dislike this society in which is normal that babies die from famine in front of hteir mom so i repudioate society and become very very eccentric

eccentric as marsille

[Kongo-Otto]

youre disrespectfull with the majorities opinion


Actually i give a big heap of human excrement about the majority and their opinion(s).

[raaaid]

Actually i give a big heap of human excrement about the majority and their opinion(s).

then you just mind your OWN opinion?

is not your saying you dont mind majorities opinion which i partially share since majority is not necesarily right

but seems to me your saying you dont mind OTHERS opinions

maybe thats why you look down on me since im irational and oposite to you?

[5./JG27.Farber]

then you just mind your OWN opinion?

Ecuse me raid! Are you not all for free opinion?! I think you are a hypocrite.

[raaaid]

well i just say majorities are not always right, take the flat earth example, i still respect those who are wrong i just try to correct them

[Sternjaeger II]

How the hell this thread go from being an informative one about books to talk again about Raaaid? Aren't u happy enough with all your random crap, u need to ruin other people's threads too now? :evil:

[5./JG27.Farber]

How the hell this thread go from being an informative one about books to talk again about Raaaid? Aren't u happy enough with all your random crap, u need to ruin other people's threads too now? :evil:

Raid is mental. This means he is special. This means he can come into any thread - say anything and distort the entire forums. This forum in which we are not allowed to swear, because of children! - however Raid can suggest in the future he will be raped by aliens with a 37cm penis... This is fine! -because he is special! :-P

[5./JG27.Farber]

...

[Feathered_IV]

You are very unpleasant today.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Sorry I didnt mean to across that way, but bringing a novel into a historical book section will do that to someone. Sorry if I caused offence.

[Kongo-Otto]

Actually i give a big heap of human excrement about the majority and their opinion(s).
then you just mind your OWN opinion?

Exactly!


but seems to me your saying you dont mind OTHERS opinions

Exactly raaaid, you got the picture. I don't give a flying fart about other peoples opinions, in fact 99,9 % of all Humans on this planet are to stupid to form an OWN Opinion at all, thats why they need CNN, TVE, Fox and Al-Jazeera and all the other nameless crap stations on this Planet.


maybe thats why you look down on me since im irational and oposite to you?

I'm not looking down on you and raaaid you're not irrational you have a serious problem!
IMHO you should stay away from the Internet and get some PROPER medical help, because there's no doubt that you have some serious mental problems which might become more serious if not treated in a proper way.

[raaaid]

im seeing a doctor, im having meds

im not CONVINCED of my ideas

im open to be wrong

what i say though bizarre is logical thought

most people dont have no trouble with me you seem to be that 1%

maybe you just want to silence me for finding my ideas annoying

[Sternjaeger II]

PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING RAAAID'S ISSUES HERE!!! I AM TIRED OF THIS CONTINUOUS YABBERING ON RAAAID, THIS IS NOT A MEDICAL CENTRE, IT'S A FORUM ABOUT SIMS AND AVIATION. STAY ON TOPIC OR GO TROLL SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Hopefully the CAPS will give it enough visibility :rolleyes:

[SG1_Lud]

Come on raaaid, Stern is right, you hijacked the thread. When I came here was looking for Hartmann's bio discussion, so please be nice and respect me at least as much are you are respected by me.

Que tengas un bonito sábado ;)

[raaaid]

yeah sorry i feel i had to defend myself

can we discuss hartmans breakdowns which fits within his bio for example, im interested in that

again i couldnt find info on them and i think its due to hero worship

[SG1_Lud]

Yes but please open another thread for that.

[raaaid]

oh what i meant is that i read some bios but they dont tell the pilots thoughts, seem to be written by a 2nd person

if there was a real hartman self bio i think he would go extensively into the reasons of the breakdowns

edit:

im trying to remain on topic

i miss a pilot bio to be written by himself not an outside person

[TBear]

Always facinating. Two years ago i was in Russia visiting a friend. He have pictures taken from a small village where an old farmer have stored away "German leftovers"

I know there is some "higher" political debate conserning these "objects" but realy hope that they find a way to get "these" things to western europe. They looked in prime condition.

I have always been happy about animals. The black cat and the bigger brother with stripes. I would love to have one "black cat" and two cats "with stripes" roaring like a maybach engine moving more gentle through the hills than tracks on tanks ;)

[Thee_oddball]

Always facinating. Two years ago i was in Russia visiting a friend. He have pictures taken from a small village where an old farmer have stored away "German leftovers"

I know there is some "higher" political debate conserning these "objects" but realy hope that they find a way to get "these" things to western europe. They looked in prime condition.

I have always been happy about animals. The black cat and the bigger brother with stripes. I would love to have one "black cat" and two cats "with stripes" roaring like a maybach engine moving more gentle through the hills than tracks on tanks ;)

sooo there is a farmer in Russia with a tiger and panther tank in his barn....be a good lad and PM his address :) ill check my PM after i get some vodka and bread to trade for the "leftovers" :)

[Kongo-Otto]

yeah sorry i feel i had to defend myself

can we discuss hartmans breakdowns which fits within his bio for example, im interested in that

again i couldnt find info on them and i think its due to hero worship


may i remind you of your first post:
i tried to research info on hartmans breakdowns but theres none

So where is the need for your self defense actually.
Get lost numb nut!!

[JG52Uther]

Anyone know whats going to happen to the P40?

[ElAurens]

Too bad the painted serial numbers were sand blasted off over time.

And I'm surprised there are no pics of the builder's plate.

It's gotta be in there.

[Sternjaeger II]

Anyone know whats going to happen to the P40?

there are a lot of rumours going on, but apparently there's a fair chance the RAF will get there and take it back to the UK, or so I was told by a close friend who works for the AF.

[JG52Uther]

Well I hope so, be a shame to see that lost.

[ElAurens]

+1 to that.

It deserves a better fate than to be cut up and sold for scrap in some bazaar in Cairo.

I had hoped the RAF would intervene. I know the US Navy considers all of it's crashed aircraft to still be the property of the USN.

[Sternjaeger II]

+1 to that.

It deserves a better fate than to be cut up and sold for scrap in some bazaar in Cairo.

I had hoped the RAF would intervene. I know the US Navy considers all of it's crashed aircraft to still be the property of the USN.

well it's a bit of a slippery slope. AFAIK there's been no disclosure on the exact location of the wreck, and the recovery of such delicate thing means a great deal of careful work and above all an adequate mean of transportation.

Then u have to deal with the local authorities and discuss the conditions of the removal. As for property, it's not that simple either: normally one needs to respect the legislation of the country the relic is found, you can't just go there and pick it up because it was your operational machine 60 years ago. If the wreck is in a country that you were fighting against that would technically be considered a war trophy, so you would have no rights over it. Normally governments don't make fuss over this stuff because it bears little or no importance to them, but rest assured that if it was a transport plane stacked with gold lingots and other valuable items there would be a mega row over it.

Whatever the case, it's obvious that the airplane as it is makes no worthy base for a flyable restoration (unlike the alleged Burma spits), and the historical value is far too important to receive a dramatic restoration. The P-40 is not a rare aircraft per se, what's rare and unique is having found one in such remarkable and complete conditions 70 years after it was lost. Those barbars should be slapped around the head for having removed the ammo boxes (when they could have simply removed the ammunition), but unfortunately we're not all aviation experts.

[JG52Uther]

Make an excellent 'diorama' like the Gladiator and Halifax at the RAF museum! Depends if the interest is there, and the funds. I think the RAF museum is pretty much tied up in the Dornier 17 recovery, and, in the cold light of day, that is a much more valuable find.

[Sternjaeger II]

Make an excellent 'diorama' like the Gladiator and Halifax at the RAF museum! Depends if the interest is there, and the funds. I think the RAF museum is pretty much tied up in the Dornier 17 recovery, and, in the cold light of day, that is a much more valuable find.

Yeah, that would be an excellent idea, especially considering the expansion plans for Hendon.

As for recovery costs, I can't think of it being that dramatic actually, nothing that a couple of Chinooks couldn't take away. It would surely entail the disassembly of the wings from the fuselage, but I can't imagine that being a costly operation to complete (ElAurens, what's the P-40 wing structure like? Monospar all across making one big wing like Mustang and T-6, or two separate wings?)

Finding this kind of stuff is like stealing a piece of art for a private collector: you would be able to smuggle it and sell it to some private collector, but he wouldn't be able to show it to the public or let people know about it.

Let's hope that common sense will prevail eventually :)

[Wolf_Rider]

Too bad the painted serial numbers were sand blasted off over time.

And I'm surprised there are no pics of the builder's plate.

It's gotta be in there.



"On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion." - Possibly?



HS-B 260 sqdn Canada, - apparently

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/357/language/en-CA/Original-Kittyhawk-HS-B-Discovered.aspx

[Jaws2002]

http://vimeo.com/40935850

Enjoy!

[Kupsised]

Thanks for posting this! behind the seat footage from just above the clouds was beautiful.

On the other hand, this video seriously annoyed me since now I need to start playing the lottery so I can get a pilots liscense and my own jet to do that in :P

[mazex]

"On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion." - Possibly?



HS-B 260 sqdn Canada, - apparently

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/357/language/en-CA/Original-Kittyhawk-HS-B-Discovered.aspx

Mmm - that really sounds like our plane! And the fact they flew with the undercarriage down for the ferry flight due to damage explains two things:

1. Why was there a wheel far from the AC at what should have been a belly landing? One of the photos show it far from the wreck. I though it was teared off anyway...

2. Why did a plane with what looks like battle damage (some shrapnel holes in the body indicate that) crash in a "non combat area"? It was on ferry to be repaired!

And sadly that means that the pilot F/Sgt DCH Copping died walking in the desert just as was the fear as the plane has not been found before... Rest in peace!

[JG52Uther]

Horrible way to go. :(

[mazex]

Horrible way to go. :(

It sure is. I actually had a hard time falling asleep yesterday thinking of the scenario. As a rookie pilot you get the mission to fly the squadron ace's plane that has been damaged to a repair and salvage unit (HS-B was one of the more famous kitty hawks in Sahara being flown by James F. "Eddie" Edwards, if not the most famous?) . You get lost and land in the middle of nowhere... In which direction do you start walking? As it is in the middle of the war you naturally realize that no one will start a search for a plane lost in the desert, and where to look? What a way to go... Those are the forgotten heroes of the war that don't get home like "Eddie" Edvards did to well earned fame and glory! He is still alive today so it would be interesting to hear if he remembers the details around that note in the squadron diary regarding what happened to "his plane".

[JG52Uther]

The guys from the Lady Be Good lived for a week. Must have been terrible. At least they had each other, for a while at least.

[335th_GRAthos]

AWESOME!

At 7:30 he iddles the right engine and initiates roll with hard right rudder! No wonder it took them one year to film all sequences!

Thanks for posting.

~S~

[DroopSnoot]

thank you for posting.

I always find it incredible that the F15 was first in tactical use as far back as the mid 70's, so far ahead of its time then but still going strong now.

[mazex]

there are a lot of rumours going on, but apparently there's a fair chance the RAF will get there and take it back to the UK, or so I was told by a close friend who works for the AF.

If you have more information from that source it would be interesting! Other forums have just like us speculated that it seems that the plane may be HS-B from 260 Squadron, maybe lost on a ferry flight... I have seen no "confirmation" about that anywhere though? Now the fact that it IS HS-B seems to be on many sites though. I want it from the RAF (or rather the RCAF if it's HS-B!).

[PeterPanPan]

thank you for posting.

I always find it incredible that the F15 was first in tactical use as far back as the mid 70's, so far ahead of its time then but still going strong now.

Ditto that. Amazing aircraft - was the first one I really lusted after as a boy! Great vid too - very 'Top Gun'.

[Sternjaeger II]

If you have more information from that source it would be interesting! Other forums have just like us speculated that it seems that the plane may be HS-B from 260 Squadron, maybe lost on a ferry flight... I have seen no "confirmation" about that anywhere though? Now the fact that it IS HS-B seems to be on many sites though. I want it from the RAF (or rather the RCAF if it's HS-B!).

well I talked to my friend last weekend, it's the kinda person that tells you only what he can tell really, and what he said is that the RAF was definitely looking into a recovery, don't know much else for now.

As for the identity and speculation re. landing gear, I would say hold your horses fellas. Doing a landing gears down emergency landing on such a sandy/rocky surface is an easy way to get yourself killed: no sane pilot would ever do that, in fact I'd rather jump with a parachute than attempt an emergency landing.

That's the first thing that surprised me: why bothering doing an emergency landing when you can easily bail out? My conclusion is that the pilot must have been losing altitude and by the time he realised he had to abandon ship he was too low and the plane wouldn't gain altitude, so he tried to pancake it on the sand. The props show signs of rotation, so it means the engine was still running, albeit probably rough, when he touched the ground. The landing gear must have been up or in an unlocked position, there's no way you can put a taildragger down with gears out on the sand without flipping it.

Another thing, if the plane was part of a ferry flight (you never fly alone in over the desert, let alone if you're on a ferry flight with a damaged plane!), why didn't the rest of the flight pinpoint the location and radio the guy to wait there for a recovery? The LRP SAS would have been able to find the chap.

My guess is that somehow the fella got singled out and got lost.

It's always a bad idea to leave your aircraft when u land it in a remote area: the chances of surviving are higher if you stay in the same place and wait for someone to find you than venturing yourself out.

There was a similar discover in the 60s (although a bit grimmer), an S.79 was found by another oil scouting team, the rests of part of the crew still there. One of the members of crew was found some 150km away from the wreck, but still in the middle of the desert.

[mazex]

well I talked to my friend last weekend, it's the kinda person that tells you only what he can tell really, and what he said is that the RAF was definitely looking into a recovery, don't know much else for now.

As for the identity and speculation re. landing gear, I would say hold your horses fellas. Doing a landing gears down emergency landing on such a sandy/rocky surface is an easy way to get yourself killed: no sane pilot would ever do that, in fact I'd rather jump with a parachute than attempt an emergency landing.

That's the first thing that surprised me: why bothering doing an emergency landing when you can easily bail out? My conclusion is that the pilot must have been losing altitude and by the time he realised he had to abandon ship he was too low and the plane wouldn't gain altitude, so he tried to pancake it on the sand. The props show signs of rotation, so it means the engine was still running, albeit probably rough, when he touched the ground. The landing gear must have been up or in an unlocked position, there's no way you can put a taildragger down with gears out on the sand without flipping it.

Another thing, if the plane was part of a ferry flight (you never fly alone in over the desert, let alone if you're on a ferry flight with a damaged plane!), why didn't the rest of the flight pinpoint the location and radio the guy to wait there for a recovery? The LRP SAS would have been able to find the chap.

My guess is that somehow the fella got singled out and got lost.

It's always a bad idea to leave your aircraft when u land it in a remote area: the chances of surviving are higher if you stay in the same place and wait for someone to find you than venturing yourself out.

There was a similar discover in the 60s (although a bit grimmer), an S.79 was found by another oil scouting team, the rests of part of the crew still there. One of the members of crew was found some 150km away from the wreck, but still in the middle of the desert.

But still, doing a gear up landing on with a P-40 in the desert should not tear the wheels out of their bays a few hundred meters from the plane? At the same time like you say it's madness to land with the gear down as it really should top the aircraft over? Maybe he was too low to bail out when he realized he was loosing power? Maybe he was really scared of using the silk? I've had a parachute on my back hundreds of times but never used it - if the plane is still in one piece it takes a tough decision to bail out, especially if you can't bring the reserve water tucked away somewhere in the plane with you?

Speculations...

But like you say, a solo ferry flight in a damaged plane sounds weird - but the diary note seems to indicate that it was the case for that AC with the damaged undercarriage... In the middle of war there are maybe weird decisions taken?

[Sternjaeger II]

But still, doing a gear up landing on with a P-40 in the desert should not tear the wheels out of their bays a few hundred meters from the plane?

there are a lot of rocks around, the wheels are turned towards the wing in a semi-retracted position, it wouldn't surprise me if they were torn apart.

Check this video of a Mustang doing a very bad (but relatively controlled) landing to get an idea of what happens to landing gears

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XuMylC7gSc

At the same time like you say it's madness to land with the gear down as it really should top the aircraft over? Maybe he was too low to bail out when he realized he was loosing power? Maybe he was really scared of using the silk? I've had a parachute on my back hundreds of times but never used it - if the plane is still in one piece it takes a tough decision to bail out, especially if you can't bring the reserve water tucked away somewhere in the plane with you?

Speculations...

But like you say, a solo ferry flight in a damaged plane sounds weird - but the diary note seems to indicate that it was the case for that AC with the damaged undercarriage... In the middle of war there are maybe weird decisions taken?

well yeah, definitely an unwise decision to fly solo in the desert, no matter if with an efficient aircraft or not. My guess again is that the landing gears were unlocked and hanging loose from the wings when he touched down, and even if he radioed a Mayday there's a fair chance he didn't give his position or the message wasn't picked up at all.

There are some deaths in war that are left untold just because you come to the sad realisation that they could have been avoided, had a wiser line of decision been taken.

[mazex]

Arghh! That is a truly awful landing and it's amazing that it did not end worse! He must have misjudged the flare completely due to low speed as he must have known the road was there? Looks like the Mustang has a gear the would fit for carrier landnings! ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

Arghh! That is a truly awful landing and it's amazing that it did not end worse! He must have misjudged the flare completely due to low speed as he must have known the road was there? Looks like the Mustang has a gear the would fit for carrier landnings! ;)

yeah, that ramp got a couple of pilots before, there's a video of a B-17 doing the same, but thanks to the big wing lift the pilot managed to hold it without causing damage.

This is the main thing I think we miss in most sims (although a now ancient sim called "Fighter Squadron: The Screaming Demons Over Europe" had it): flexible/bendable airframes. Stuff does not simply break, it bends (and it does it a lot on airframes).

AFAIK there were trials for Mustangs on aircraft carriers, but laminar flow wings can be quite unforgiving ;)

[BadAim]

The Mustang in the video lost power as it was coming in (did you notice the puff of smoke?) and the pilot had to let her settle well short of the runway, the berm that the plane hit was supposed to be the edge of the field. I would say that considering the circumstances, that was an excellent landing.

As for the speculation about landing versus parachuting, I can certainly see the reluctance to jump out of a perfectly land-able aircraft. Hartmann belly flopped some 17 or so aircraft before being forced to bail out of one that was literally falling apart. Parachutes were an unknown quantity, landing a plane was, even if it was damaged.

It will be interesting to find the real story. If it's indeed there to be found.

[Sternjaeger II]

The Mustang in the video lost power as it was coming in (did you notice the puff of smoke?) and the pilot had to let her settle well short of the runway, the berm that the plane hit was supposed to be the edge of the field. I would say that considering the circumstances, that was an excellent landing.

yep, there was a failure with one of the camshaft gears if memory serves. The pilot could have put her down flawlessly had it not been for that stupid bank on the runway edge. With such a sudden power loss the pilot had pretty much little to do, all he could do was hanging on to the stick and hoping the Stang would keep its tail down. If it wasn't for that ramp it would have been just a rougher landing, but it's worth noting that even on such a hard hit only one landing gear leg bent slightly.

Here's Sally-B doing the same thing, although with all engines working all the pilot needed to do was give it a bit of throttle and help her down gently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTnoHn0PGCM&feature=relmfu

As for the speculation about landing versus parachuting, I can certainly see the reluctance to jump out of a perfectly land-able aircraft. Hartmann belly flopped some 17 or so aircraft before being forced to bail out of one that was literally falling apart. Parachutes were an unknown quantity, landing a plane was, even if it was damaged.

It will be interesting to find the real story. If it's indeed there to be found.

well belly landing per se is a risky business with such aircraft on a rough field, let alone on a rocky desert! Don't forget you're coming down at 90-100 mph! We don't usually wear parachutes on the T-6, because it has such a sturdy wing that you can easily put it down in a field, but on the Mustang we always wear a chute: belly landing can be catastrophic because if it flips you're dead, since there's no armour headrest or protection frame to save the canopy from crushing. That's how the late Paul Morgan died unfortunately, and it's definitely an ugly way to go.

[bongodriver]

I was at Sywell the day Baby Gorilla flipped over, saw the whole incident unfold, really sad.

[Sternjaeger II]

I was at Sywell the day Baby Gorilla flipped over, saw the whole incident unfold, really sad.

I'm glad I wasn't there, I never met him but my friends there always told me he was an absolutely fantastic man he was. His P-51 Susy was a real cutie, it's in Germany now I think.

[bongodriver]

He had a corsair too, what happened to that?

[Sternjaeger II]

He had a corsair too, what happened to that?

AFAIK there was nobody else in his family that could fly the planes, so they decided to sell them. They held on Susy for a while, but it eventually went.

EDIT: The Corsair went across the pond apparently, and it also seems that the Sea Fury is being restored abroad.

[Daniël]

Great video! Thank you! :cool:

[gelbevierzehn]

WOW... Thx for sharing this!!!

[JG5_emil]

Wow that was awsome!

Cheers for posting

[WTE_Galway]

thank you for posting.

I always find it incredible that the F15 was first in tactical use as far back as the mid 70's, so far ahead of its time then but still going strong now.

It was intended to replace the F4 in 'nam but never made it in time.

[Hood]

Great video.

Now imagine doing all that in a tiny 1,000hp fighter getting to 200m in order to shoot at someone else. Then go further back and imagine being in a 110hp biplane geting to 10m...

Hood

[335th_GRAthos]

Some interesting follow up...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/9231855/Air-France-Flight-447-Damn-it-were-going-to-crash.html



By Nick Ross, Neil Tweedie
7:30AM BST 28 Apr 2012

In the early hours of June 1 2009, Air France Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris went missing, along with 216 passengers and 12 crew. The Airbus A330-200 disappeared mid-ocean, beyond radar coverage and in darkness. It took a shocked and bewildered Air France six hours to concede its loss and for several agonising days there was no trace. It was an utter mystery. No other airliner had vanished so completely in modern times. Even when wreckage was discovered the tragedy was no less perplexing. The aircraft had flown through a thunderstorm, but there was no distress signal, and the jet was state-of-the-art, a type that had never before been involved in a fatal accident. What had caused it to fall out of the sky?

The official report by French accident investigators is due in a month and seems likely to echo provisional verdicts suggesting human error. There is no doubt that at least one of AF447’s pilots made a fatal and sustained mistake, and the airline must bear responsibility for the actions of its crew. It will be a grievous blow for Air France, perhaps more damaging than the Concorde disaster of July 2000.

But there is another, worrying implication that the Telegraph can disclose for the first time: that the errors committed by the pilot doing the flying were not corrected by his more experienced colleagues because they did not know he was behaving in a manner bound to induce a stall. And the reason for that fatal lack of awareness lies partly in the design of the control stick – the “side stick” – used in all Airbus cockpits.

Anything to do with Airbus is important. The company has sold 11,500 aircraft to date, with 7,000 in the air. It commands half the world market in big airliners, the other half belonging to its great American rival, Boeing.

The mystery of AF447 has taken three years to resolve, involving immensely costly mid-Atlantic searches covering 17,000 square kilometres of often uncharted sea bed to depths of 4,700 metres. So remote was the place the airliner went down, in equatorial waters between Brazil and Africa, that it was five days before debris and the first bodies were recovered. Finally, almost two years later, robot submarines located the aircraft’s flight recorders, a near-miraculous feat that revitalised the biggest crash inquiry since Lockerbie.

Prior to the recovery of the recorders, the cause of the disaster could only be inferred from a few salvaged pieces of wreckage and technical data beamed automatically from the aircraft to the airline’s maintenance centre in France. It appeared to be a failure of the plane’s pitot (pronounced pea-toe) tubes – small, forward-facing ducts that use airflow to measure airspeed. On entering the storm these had apparently frozen over, blanking airspeed indicators and causing the autopilot to disengage. From then on the crew failed to maintain sufficient speed, resulting in a stall which, over almost four minutes, sent 228 people plummeting to their deaths.

But why? Normally an A330 can fly itself, overriding unsafe commands. Even if systems fail there is standard procedure to fall back on: if you set engine thrust to 85 per cent and pitch the nose five degrees above the horizontal, the aircraft will more or less fly level. How was it that three pilots trained by a safe and prestigious airline could so disastrously lose control? Either there was something wrong with the plane, or with the crew. Airbus and Air France, both with much to lose, were soon pointing accusing fingers at each other.

In July last year the French air crash investigation organisation, the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses (BEA), published its third interim report. For Air France the conclusion was crushing: the crew had ignored repeated stall alerts and kept trying to climb, instead of levelling off or descending to pick up speed. The A330 had become so slow that it simply ceased to fly. Its reputation on the line, Air France came as close as it dared to repudiating the finding. The pilots, said the airline, had “showed unfailing professional attitude, remaining committed to their task to the very end”.

But the airline’s case seemed thin. All indications suggested the aircraft had functioned just as it was designed. The black box recordings showed that the plane was responsive to the point of impact. The case against the pilots looked even worse when a transcript of the voice recorder was leaked. It confirmed that one of the pilots had pulled the stick back and kept it there for almost the entirety of the emergency. With its nose pointed too far upwards, it was little wonder that the Airbus had eventually lost momentum and stalled. But this analysis begs the question: even if one pilot got things badly wrong, why did his two colleagues fail to spot the problem? The transcript of increasingly panicky conversations in the cockpit suggests they did, but too late.

AF447 was four hours into its 11-hour overnight journey when it was overwhelmed by disaster. Many passengers, including five Britons, would have been trying to grab some sleep, only half aware of the turbulence buffeting the A330. There were eight children onboard, including Alexander Bjoroy, an 11-year-old boarder at Bristol’s Clifton College. Also travelling was Christine Badre Schnabl and her five-year-old son, Philippe. She and her husband had purposely chosen separate flights to Paris, possibly because of their shared fear of air crashes. He had taken off earlier with the couple’s three-year-old daughter.

Two hours in, Marc Dubois, the veteran captain, was heading for a routine break. His deputy, David Robert, a seasoned flier with 6,500 flying hours under his belt, was perfectly capable of coping with the tropical thunderstorm AF447 was flying towards. Pierre-Cédric Bonin was at the controls and, though the most junior pilot, he had clocked up a respectable 2,900 hours on commercial jets.

As the airliner entered the worst of the weather, Bonin told the cabin crew to prepare for turbulence. Eight minutes later, everyone on board would be dead. Bonin himself seems to have been spooked, calling attention to a metallic smell and an eerie glow in the cockpit. Robert reassured him that it was St Elmo’s fire, an electrical fluorescence not uncommon in equatorial thunderstorms. A few moments later the outside air temperature plummeted, the pitot tubes iced up and an alarm sounded briefly to warn that the autopilot had disengaged. From this moment, Bonin’s behaviour is strange. The flight recorder indicates that, without saying anything, he pulled back on the stick and, seemingly against all reason, kept the nose up, causing a synthesised voice to warn, “Stall! Stall!” in English as the airspeed began to drop dangerously. Robert took 20 or 30 seconds to figure out what was happening before ordering Bonin to descend. “It says we’re going up. It says we’re going up, so descend.” Seconds later Robert again called out, “Descend!” and for a few moments the plane recovered momentum and the stall warning ceased. But Robert was now anxious enough to call for the captain to return to the cockpit. Meanwhile, Bonin’s instinct was again to pull back on the control stick. He left it there despite the stall warning that blared out some 75 times. Instead of moving the stick forward to pick up speed, he continued to climb at almost the maximum rate. If he had simply set the control to neutral or re-engaged the autopilot, all would have been well.

A minute after the autopilot disconnected, Bonin muttered something odd: “I’m in TOGA, huh?” TOGA stands for Take Off, Go Around. Bonin was apparently so disorientated that he believed he was operating at low altitude, in a similar situation to a pilot having to abort a landing approach before circling for a second attempt. Standard procedure on abandoning a landing is to set engines to full power and tilt the aircraft upwards at 15 degrees. But Flight AF447 was not a few hundred feet above a runway. Within a minute it had soared to 38,000 feet in air so thin that it could climb no more. As forward thrust was lost, downward momentum was gathering. Instead of the wings slicing neatly through the air, their increasing angle of attack meant they were in effect damming it. In the next 40 seconds AF447 fell 3,000 feet, losing more and more speed as the angle of attack increased to 40 degrees. The wings were now like bulldozer blades against the sky. Bonin failed to grasp this fact, and though angle of attack readings are sent to onboard computers, there are no displays in modern jets to convey this critical information to the crews. One of the provisional recommendations of the BEA inquiry has been to challenge this absence.

Bonin’s insistent efforts to climb soon deprived even the computers of the vital angle-of-attack information. An A330’s angle of attack is measured by a fin projecting from the fuselage. When forward speed fell to 60 knots there was insufficient airflow to make the mechanism work. The computers, which are programmed not to feed pilots misleading information, could no longer make sense of the data they were receiving and blanked out some of the instruments. Also, the stall warnings ceased. It was up to the pilots to do some old-fashioned flying.

With no knowledge of airspeed or angle of attack, the safest thing at high altitude is to descend gently to avoid a stall. This is what David urged Bonin to do, but something bewildering happened when Bonin put the nose down. As the aircraft picked up speed, the input data became valid again and the computers could now make sense of things. Once again they began to shout: “Stall, stall, stall.” Tragically, as Bonin did the right thing to pick up speed, the aircraft seemed to tell him he was making matters worse. If he had continued to descend the warnings would eventually have ceased. But, panicked by the renewed stall alerts, he chose to resume his fatal climb.

Yet if Bonin was now beyond his knowledge and experience, the key to understanding the crash is Robert’s failure to grasp the mistake being made by his colleague. It is here that Airbus’s cockpit design may be at fault.

Like all other aircraft in the modern Airbus range the A330 is controlled by side sticks beside pilots’ seats, which resemble those on computer game consoles. These side sticks are not connected to the aircraft control surfaces by levers and pulleys, as in older aircraft. Instead commands are fed to computers, which in turn send signals to the engines and hydraulics. This so-called fly-by-wire technology has huge advantages. Doing away with mechanical connections saves weight, and therefore fuel. There are fewer moving components to go wrong, the slender electronic wiring and computers all have multiple back‑ups, and the onboard processors take much of the workload off pilots. Better still, they are programmed to compensate for human error.

The side sticks are also wonderfully clever. Once a command is given, say a 10-degree left turn, the pilot can let the stick go and concentrate on other issues while the 10-degree turn is perfectly maintained. According to Stephen King of the British Airline Pilots’ Association, it’s an admired and popular design. “Most Airbus pilots I know love it because of the reliable automation that allows you to manage situations and not be so fatigued by the mechanics of flying.”

But the fact that the second pilot’s stick stays in neutral whatever the input to the other is not a good thing. As King concedes: “It’s not immediately apparent to one pilot what the other may be doing with the control stick, unless he makes a big effort to look across to the other side of the flight deck, which is not easy. In any case, the side stick is held back for only a few seconds, so you have to see the action being taken.”

Thus it was that even when Bonin had the A330’s nose pointed upward during the fatal stall, his colleagues failed to comprehend what was going on. It seems clear from the transcripts that Robert assumed the plane was flying level or even descending. Robert himself was panicking: “We still have the engines! What the hell is happening? I don’t understand what’s happening.” Ninety seconds after the emergency began the captain was back in the cockpit demanding: “What the hell are you doing?” To which both pilots responded: “We’ve lost control of the plane!”

Dubois took the seat behind his colleagues and for a while was as perplexed as they were. It was pitch black outside, warning lights were flashing and some of the screens were blank. The men in front partially blocked his view and evidently he did not take much notice of a horizon indicator, which must have shown the plane was still being held nose up. The Airbus was soon falling through the night at 11,000 feet per minute, twice as fast as its forward travel. Only 45 seconds before impact Bonin blurted out that he had been trying to climb throughout the emergency, giving his colleagues the first indication of what had been going wrong. There is one final, dramatic exchange:

02:13:40 (Robert) “Climb… climb… climb… climb…”

02:13:40 (Bonin) “But I’ve had the stick back the whole time!”

02:13:42 (Dubois) “No, no, no… Don’t climb… no, no.”

02:13:43 (Robert) “Descend… Give me the controls… Give me the controls!”

Robert takes control and finally lowers the nose, but at that moment a new hazard warning sounds, telling them the surface of the sea is fast approaching. Robert realises the ghastly truth – that he hasn’t enough height to dive to pick up speed. The flight is doomed.

02:14:23 (Robert) “Damn it, we’re going to crash… This can’t be happening!”

02:14:25 (Bonin) “But what’s going on?”

The captain, now acutely aware of the aircraft’s pitch, has the final word:

02:14:27 (Dubois) “Ten degrees of pitch…”

There the recording ends.

Mercifully, data recordings and impact damage on debris confirm the Airbus was still more or less level when it hit the sea. Some of the passengers might have dozed throughout the descent; others may have attributed it to violent buffeting. Those in window seats would have seen only darkness. There is reason to hope that there was not too much panic on board, but this is small consolation.

It seems surprising that Airbus has conceived a system preventing one pilot from easily assessing the actions of the colleague beside him. And yet that is how their latest generations of aircraft are designed. The reason is that, for the vast majority of the time, side sticks are superb. “People are aware that they don’t know what is being done on the other side stick, but most of the time the crews fly in full automation; they are not even touching the stick,” says Captain King. “We hand-fly the aeroplane ever less now because automation is reliable and efficient, and because fatigue is an issue. [The side stick] is not an issue that comes up – very rarely does the other pilot’s input cause you concern.”

Boeing has always begged to differ, persisting with conventional controls on its fly-by-wire aircraft, including the new 787 Dreamliner, introduced into service this year. Boeing’s cluttering and old-fashioned levers still have to be pushed and turned like the old mechanical ones, even though they only send electronic impulses to computers. They need to be held in place for a climb or a turn to be accomplished, which some pilots think is archaic and distracting. Some say Boeing is so conservative because most American pilots graduate from flying schools where column-steering is the norm, whereas European airlines train more crew from scratch, allowing a quicker transition to side stick control.

Whatever the cultural differences, there is a perceived safety issue, too. The American manufacturer was concerned about side sticks’ lack of visual and physical feedback. Indeed, it is hard to believe AF447 would have fallen from the sky if it had been a Boeing. Had a traditional yoke been installed on Flight AF447, Robert would surely have realised that his junior colleague had the lever pulled back and mostly kept it there. When Dubois returned to the cockpit he would have seen that Bonin was pulling up the nose.

There is another clever gizmo on the Airbus intended to make life simpler for the pilots but that could confound them if they are distracted and overloaded. Computers can automatically adjust the engine thrust to maintain whatever speed is selected by the crew. This means pilots do not need to keep fine-tuning the throttles on the cockpit’s centre console to control the power. But a curious feature of “autothrust” is that it bypasses the manual levers entirely – they simply do not move. This means pilots cannot sense the power setting by touching or glancing at the throttle levers. Instead, they have to check their computer screens. Again Boeing have adopted a different philosophy. They told the Telegraph: “We have heard again and again from airline pilots that the absence of motion with the Airbus flight deck is rather unsettling to them.” In Boeing’s system the manual handles move, even in automatic mode.

All the indications are that the final crash report will confirm the initial findings and call for better training and procedures. With the exception of Air France, which has a vested interest in avoiding culpability, no one has publicly challenged the Airbus cockpit design. And while Air France has modified the pitots on its fleet, it has said nothing about side sticks.

It is extremely unlikely that there will ever be another disaster quite like AF447. Crews have already had the lessons drummed into them and routine refresher courses on simulators have been upgraded to replicate AF447 high-level stalls. Airbus has an excellent safety record, at least as good as Boeing, and the A330 is an extremely trustworthy aircraft. Flying is easily the least dangerous way to travel, far safer than a car. But while more of us take to the air each year, a single crash is enough to damage confidence.

Critics of side sticks may now argue that Airbus should return to the drawing board. A feature designed to make things better for pilots has unintentionally made it harder for them to monitor colleagues in stressful situations. Yet there is no sign that the inquiry will call for changes to the sticks and Airbus remains confident about the safety of its technology. It will resist what it regards as a retrograde step to return to faux-mechanical controls. The company is unable to speak openly during the investigation, but a source close to the manufacturer says: “The ergonomic systems were absolutely not contrived by engineers and imposed on the pilot community. They were developed by pilots from many airlines, working closely with the engineers. What’s more, it has all been tested and certified by the European Aviation Safety Agency and regulators in the United States, and approved by lots of airlines.”

As Captain King points out, a belief in automation and the elegantly simple side sticks in particular, is integral to the Airbus design philosophy: “You would have to build in artificial feedback – that would be a huge modification.”

A defender of Airbus puts it thus: “When you drive you don’t look at the pedals to judge your speed, you look at the speedometer. It’s the same when flying: you don’t look at the stick, you look at the instruments.”

There is a problem with that analogy. Drivers manoeuvre by looking out of the window, physically steering and sensing pressure on the pedals. The speedometer is usually the only instrument a motorist needs to monitor. An airline pilot flying in zero visibility depends upon instruments for direction, pitch, altitude, angle of climb or descent, turn, yaw and thrust; and has to keep an eye on several dozen settings and lights. Flying a big airliner manually is a demanding task, especially if warnings are blaring and anxiety is growing.

Multimillion-euro lawsuits could follow any admission of liability and it is certainly preferable from Airbus’s point of view that Air France should shoulder the blame for the night when AF447 plunged into the void.

However, no one would suggest that, when it comes to the aircraft we all rely on every day, commercial considerations should come anything but a distant second to safety.


~S~

[raaaid]

i would rather fly with a pilot that doesnt know pulling up stalls the plane than with one that has virtually crahsed a million times and amke it an habit

[Sternjaeger II]

I have several friends who switched from Boeing or MDD to Airbus, and they all tell me the same thing: you need to change your mentality when flying one, because in fact you're not flying it, you're telling the computers your intention and they let it happen in the safest (according to their parameters) way.

IMHO there's one major design fault in the Airbus mentality: it dramatically limits the pilot's emergency decisions.

Airbus is a concept designed by engineers, and most of them don't think with a pilot's mentality.

Another issue is that many of the modern pilots don't have experience with conventional large jetliners or smaller aircraft, and consequently don't have a full grasp of unusual flight envelopes and how to recognise/deal with them.

A 737 will give you a totally different feedback when you fly it, the intention of Airbus is to cut the pilot's error off of the risk equation, but it's been demonstrated by several accidents how sometimes the cause of the accidents is because de facto the pilot is put in a secondary decisional position.

To give you an example: if your TCAS has a malfunction (or the other plane's TCAS does) and you have a visual contact that you need to avoid, the flight computers will not allow you to go beyond certain parameters in your avoiding manoeuvre. This is meant to safeguard the plane's structural integrity (which has redundant structural parameters anyways), but the computer doesn't think about the possibility of an unusual manoeuvre or going beyond the preset limits just for the sake of collision avoidance.

The whole idea of letting a machine do the thinking job that a pilot should is insane to me :confused:

[bongodriver]

+1

[Sternjaeger II]

+1

High five for the old fashioned aviators Bongo! :cool:

[Sternjaeger II]

here, have a read at this for some extra info on the "Airbus mentality"

http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm

[bongodriver]

High five for the old fashioned aviators Bongo! :cool:

Absolutely, more and more jobs are going to computers and the x-box generation, it's going to bite the world in the ass hard.

[JG52Krupi]

I have several friends who switched from Boeing or MDD to Airbus, and they all tell me the same thing: you need to change your mentality when flying one, because in fact you're not flying it, you're telling the computers your intention and they let it happen in the safest (according to their parameters) way.

IMHO there's one major design fault in the Airbus mentality: it dramatically limits the pilot's emergency decisions.

Airbus is a concept designed by engineers, and most of them don't think with a pilot's mentality.

Another issue is that many of the modern pilots don't have experience with conventional large jetliners or smaller aircraft, and consequently don't have a full grasp of unusual flight envelopes and how to recognise/deal with them.

A 737 will give you a totally different feedback when you fly it, the intention of Airbus is to cut the pilot's error off of the risk equation, but it's been demonstrated by several accidents how sometimes the cause of the accidents is because de facto the pilot is put in a secondary decisional position.

To give you an example: if your TCAS has a malfunction (or the other plane's TCAS does) and you have a visual contact that you need to avoid, the flight computers will not allow you to go beyond certain parameters in your avoiding manoeuvre. This is meant to safeguard the plane's structural integrity (which has redundant structural parameters anyways), but the computer doesn't think about the possibility of an unusual manoeuvre or going beyond the preset limits just for the sake of collision avoidance.

The whole idea of letting a machine do the thinking job that a pilot should is insane to me :confused:

From what I have heard the latest Boeing is more towards an A320 set up than the 737.... (not sure if that's correct!)

Yes your right it was a designed by engineers but it was designed by engineers towards an airlines requirements rather than the pilots, so don't come out with the "engineers don't know this, that etc..." talk.

Its a proven concept and while I understand pilots might find an Airbus boring to fly the airlines like them and there the people who buy the aircraft ;)...


A 737 will give you a totally different feedback when you fly it, the intention of Airbus is to cut the pilot's error off of the risk equation, but it's been demonstrated by several accidents how sometimes the cause of the accidents is because de facto the pilot is put in a secondary decisional position.

Agreed... but a mute point as several accidents have shown that if the aircraft had an "Airbus" system the accident might not have happened... unfortunately there is no fool proof system its entirely situational as to which one "Trumps" the other :-x....

[JG52Krupi]

Absolutely, more and more jobs are going to computers and the x-box generation, it's going to bite the world in the ass hard.

!!!!!!!!!!!

It about safety, surely any attempt to make flying safe for passengers should be commended?

[bongodriver]

!!!!!!!!!!!

It about safety, surely any attempt to make flying safe for passengers should be commended?


Sadly it has nothing to do with safety but is all to do with making money, you do realise comercial pilots are taken into the simulator just twice a year, and for some it's the only time they even come close to manual flying and even then not all emergencys are practiced, this is all about saving money for the airlines, unlike the military who get continuous training.
No........ real safety will come from properly trained pilots who are well practiced, but because humans are slightly less efficient than computers and burn slighly more fuel (seriously) the airlines discourage hand flying.