An Alternate Strategy?

[kendo65]

We all know that there are continuing difficulties with the graphics engine reworking. It seems that the devs themselves were not expecting such a delay in completing and releasing it.

BlackSix said a few weeks back that the plan was for only the graphics rewrite to be released in the next beta. Once this had been tested and proved stable, then further patches would introduce the improvements from other areas of development - FM, AI, etc, etc.

So, currently there is a complete block on any element of the sim being updated until the graphics rewrite is judged to be ready. But, presumably there has been progress made in some of those other areas (FM, sound engine, etc) in the 6 months since the previous beta. Given the unforseen difficulties in completing the new graphics would it be possible to hatch a 'Plan B' and release some of this other work in a new patch while work continues on the graphics rewrite?

This could have many advantages, not least being to smooth out some of the bad feeling and impatience amongst a lot of the fans.

I assume that some elements planned for later patches would be dependent on the fps increase provided by the new engine (eg tree collision, more crew animations), but FM and AI improvements and I'm sure many others would not.

So, given the current 'crisis' created by the delay, would a new plan be possible or advisable? It may be the case that any reworking would cause more problems than it fixes? I don't know. Just thought I'd throw this idea out there.

[Insuber]

It would be a good idea if it was based on facts. Unfortunately nothing proves that they have anything ready for prime time.

[furbs]

Where did Black6 say the will be other fixes coming?
As far as i know Black6 said the patch is "just" the graphics rewrite only, he said nothing about other fixes.

[robtek]

Actually he said the first patch is graphics only, iirc.

[kendo65]

It would be a good idea if it was based on facts. Unfortunately nothing proves that they have anything ready for prime time.

There are a few (what I would call reasonable) assumptions in my post.

You've identified one of them: 6 months of ongoing effort - Luthier mentioned further improvements in the sounds for a start, we saw the photos of the team working on the FMs.

If there is nothing available in any other area after 6 months, then things are worse than I thought.

No proof, though - you're right on that.

[kendo65]

Where did Black6 say the will be other fixes coming?
As far as i know Black6 said the patch is "just" the graphics rewrite only, he said nothing about other fixes.

Another (reasonable?) assumption:

As robtek said, the first patch deals with graphics.........then what?

We know they've been working on other things. They've told us.

So what do they do? Release them after the graphics are done or wait until BOM? From reading Luthier's updates the plan is to fix FMs, AI and a lot of other things for COD before the sequel is released. Maybe(?) some are ready for release now. I don't know.

[furbs]

Im just saying we dont "know" other fixes are coming in other patches.

[kendo65]

From reading Luthier's comments they are...or are planned to be. Read back over the statements about ongoing work and continuing to support COD.

[mxmadman]

Why do people keep referring to BOM as a 'sequel'? Doesn't it stand for Battle of Moscow? Wouldn't that just be a new map and maybe two more linear campaigns?

[CaptainDoggles]

Why do people keep referring to BOM as a 'sequel'? Doesn't it stand for Battle of Moscow? Wouldn't that just be a new map and maybe two more linear campaigns?

It's still rather unclear what relationship BOM will have to CLOD.

We say "sequel" with the understanding that the relationship could be like that between the original IL2 and IL2: Forgotten Battles, but it could also be like the relationship between IL2FB and Pacific Fighters, or PF and 1946.

[furbs]

From reading Luthier's comments they are...or are planned to be. Read back over the statements about ongoing work and continuing to support COD.

Lets not count our chickens. i wouldn't count on anything at the moment until its downloaded and working on your PC.

[von Brühl]

Why do people keep referring to BOM as a 'sequel'? Doesn't it stand for Battle of Moscow? Wouldn't that just be a new map and maybe two more linear campaigns?


Those were the words of the developer's mouthpeice, B6. People assuming this is an expansion is just a guess, as the actual term used was sequel.

[kendo65]

I'll sketch out what I think the situation might be and why I made the suggestion in the first post.

I think that the devs may have felt that the graphics patch is 'almost there' for maybe the last 2+ months. There was talk about it before Christmas. There was a statement about a problem with decals more recently that gave the impression that once that was fixed then it would be ready.

I think it is possible that they have spent nearly every week of the last 2 months thinking that completion was just around the corner. But new unforeseen problems kept being found. It ends up in a long delay, they get it in the neck again, the waiting public are unhappy, and all the way along at each step the devs are convinced that they almost have it cracked and just a few more days will sort it.

In a situation like that you can get a kind of fixation on the way that you want things to happen and lose sight of other alternatives.

Maybe it is time now to conclude that there is a danger that it may take another x months to sort out the graphics, and if so that it would be a good idea to change tack and release some other things that are complete earlier they were originally scheduled?

This is all speculation and I don't want to come across as appearing to say that I know better than the devs what their strategy should be. There are a couple of hundred reasons why it might not be possible to do it like this.

[furbs]

I agree Kendo, we were told when we saw the tanks and AA guns that it would only be the work of a couple of guys and not to worry the rest of the team would be working very hard on the rest of features for CLOD.

Well the rest of the team have had 5 months so you would assume they would have made some good progress.


It would be great to see the fruits of their labour.

[Troll2k]

From wading through numerous posts I got the impression that BOM is to Clod as PF was to Forgotten Battles.It can be installed and run as a separate entity or merged with Clod.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Wiat wait wait... How do YOU know that these things can be delivered piecemeal? How do we not know they are intertwined?

:(:confused::grin:

[Chivas]

The plan has always been and never changed that the sequels can be installed as a standalone sim or merged with previous theaters. How many patches we get before the release of sequel will probably depend on how long it takes for the sequel to be ready for release and how quickly patches are created. I can't see the sequel being ready anytime soon and would expect atleast another couple of patches for COD before the release of the sequel.

[CWMV]

Wiat wait wait... How do YOU know that these things can be delivered piecemeal? How do we not know they are intertwined?

:(:confused::grin:

Thats what my money is on.

Honestly I think if they could release anything they would have. I believe that they simply dont have anything ready, and that any and all improvements depend on this rewrite.

Cant build a house until the foundation is set.

[XL5]

Its seems that since Luthier "vanished" from this forum, the whole project took another turn. It feels like if new foundings and manpower came in. As well as a new PR politics. Its like if everything was redone from scratch and the new " investors" went along at the condition of changing the whole management.
It is no longer Oleg's project. It is no longer a "special" relationship with the community, it is no longer a sharing of WIP and feedbacks. This method was a total PR and marketing failure...Those times are gone. But it is hard for long time faithful followers, I presume, to adapt to the new order. It looks like the next step from Luthier's team will be to present a final and complete version of CLOD, and turn the page. They have nothing to gain by giving us bits and pieces. No one will be satisfied and ready to move on to the sequel until CLOD is competed as we feel it should have been at release.
I therefore expect no updates or infos from Luthier until the game is fully functionnal and completed as it should have been...

[Jaws2002]

I think you guys missread what Black Six posted. He said the BETA will be graphics only and once is ready for prime time, the official patch will have other fixes as well.....


......or at least that's what I understood from his post.:confused:

[RickRuski]

Luthier has stated earlier that the natural progression of C.o.D would follow the same as Il2 AEP, PF, and 1946. This means as I read it that some fixes will come as patches to C.o.D others will be included in the new expansion packs. Guess we can't expect miracles but it would be nice to have some of the problems fixed before the release of B.o.M just to regain the support of the community. The success of the sequel will depend on the sales it achieves and by not keeping dialogue going with the support base a lot may hold back and wait until it is proved that things have been fixed before purchasing the sequel.

[Buchon]

I did not read all the thread but why you guys are explaining the same things over and over ?

Guess that someone are denying developers words again and successful trolling a thread ... again.

[furbs]

Seems the post where Blacksix talked about what was in the patch has been deleted, at least i cant find it now.

[Buchon]

Its all a big conspiracy !!

Trolololol :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRp_dUo5K1c

:-P

[41Sqn_Banks]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=400392&postcount=881

The sequel is developed on the same engine as CloD. We can't release sequel until it will repair the engine.

Nuff said.

[Heinz Laube]

since we are playing CloD as Beta , anyway, why not give us every friday a current state beta patch, to help to test with the possibility to rollback, since most of us are using JSGME... so the community can help, we are allways up to date, and 1c will have a directly input from the playerbase,
I think that everyone would benefit from, imo

[carguy_]

Heinz, maybe because whatever they do or say they get hammered by some of the minority that`s quite vocal here?

[6S.Tamat]

or maybe just because they are still working on something unstable?

Thinking on the more obvious things is too complicate.

[Insuber]

Heinz, maybe because whatever they do or say they get hammered by some of the minority that`s quite vocal here?

This is just an excuse. Communication from devs after release has been always very scarce, independently from any reaction of someone in this forum.

[Strike]

I am imagining that it's difficult to compile a beta build if they run into some unforeseen issues. I am no developer or programmer and can't speak on behalf of them, but I assume the answer simply is that they are working on it. By that I mean that they are busy working as hard as they can on getting a stable, usable build they can release. That's why they havn't released it yet.

It's like.... oh dear, again with the imagine this stories....

Imagine construction workers are working on patching up a highway road. They have re-routed the road on a somewhat bumpy detour of a road and you are eager to have your repaired highway back. Since you are paying taxes to have the road network maintained, you think they better be done soon! The fact is that work is work. You still have to close the road, set up your site, bring in the machinery, mend everything, and hope that you don't encounter anything that may delay the work. The leader has to come up with a plan for what gets done when and that's called a plan. This kind of plan is an estimate for when the road is finished. Now imagine: They screw up the asphalt mixture. That means they have to dig up the old asphalt, and start over. Maybe the mixture was good for some stretch, but they have to investiage where they messed it up and start over from there. Meanwhile the boss of the company is on the phone with the site manager shouting at him demanding a new estimate. The site manager says 2 days, be sure. Then they strike a water pipeline. The manager calls back and the boss is infuriated, another 4 days delay and a phone to the piping department. Then the pipe is fixed a little early and they get ahead of schedule again. New time. New time. New time. That's what work is like. You can say that you can guarantee something is finished within X amount of time but you'd be a liar.

The interesting question is; what if the construction workers just re-opened the road without fixing the asphalt and thoroughly fixing the pipe? We'd be like "awww Yay!" for like 2 minutes until the asphalt sunk into a hole. And we would be furious!

It ain't done until it's done. Period.

At least we have a detour (bumpy-road) we can use, and the traffic isn't in a 100% halt. There's no urgent emergency.


Point is; the game works (just enough for my flight sim craving emergencies). But it isn't as good as it could be.

Why push it and force a release that is completely untested with all bugs waiting for us to find them and rage over it.

They probably aren't saying anything because there's nothing to say. Its better that they work on the patch imho, rather than work up an excuse and try to explain us how the graphics integrates with this, so that this feature can work like intended in harmony with unit X and still not wreck feature X.. and so on.

Just saying (guessing)

[6S.Tamat]

Strike i'm with you in your general assumption, but extending in my point of view your metaphore:
- the road is in a private neighborood paid by the local community
- after some months of work (insthead of some weeks said by the construction company) the community is irritated and is yelling the boss of the company
-the boss of the company needs to fix it, but explains precisely the problem to clarify more the situation.

The fact that they say: "there is nothing to tell because we are working on" is like to not say that an old pipe exploded and to say nothing to the community more than "we are working on some new problems".
If someone thinks that there is no way to talk about technical problems i would simply remember that the world is not full only of children not able to understand the language of the programmer gods. It is like to say to the community "We are sorry for the late but there are problems- What kind of? - I'm sorry you would not understand."
If someone is interested in seeing how a complex developement can be described he could go to read the Xplane 10 developer blog.
Explain the problems require time for sure, but the trust is not for free and the situation is not so calm and positive now, after an year.

[kendo65]

Strike, there is slightly different issue here I think - there is always a judgement to be made about how near you are to completion of the plan and whether it is worthwhile to go to all the hassle of reconfiguring everything.

To make that call you need to have some idea (or take a guess!) of how long either option is going to take. If you're always making the judgement that you're 'nearly there' then there never seems to be a good reason to change course.

It's only with hindsight that you realise you've spent 3 months convinced you were 'nearly there' - and there is STILL no way of knowing whether NOW you are 'nearly there' or it will take another 2 months?!?

For this reason alone I don't think we'll see them issue an interim patch. I just hope that they make the progress they need on the graphics soon enough.

[SEE]

I would prefer to wait and have a single patch that goes the distance in resolving the main areas of critiscm. I fear an improved GFX patch with better performance will not altogether satisfy a lot of peeps if the FM, DM, comms, AI are left unattended and WIP.

It will be a case of "yeah, it runs and looks better but .........".

[carguy_]

I am no developer or programmer and can't speak on behalf of them, but I assume the answer simply is that they are working on it. By that I mean that they are busy working as hard as they can on getting a stable, usable build they can release. That's why they havn't released it yet.
You do not need to assume anything. They`ve been saying that probably in every single friday dev update thread to date.

[carguy_]

This is just an excuse. Communication from devs after release has been always very scarce, independently from any reaction of someone in this forum.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. In my opinion the updates probably have been more frequent than any other game I bought. Except maybe the original IL2 in its days of glory.

[kendo65]

The problem is that in information terms, "They're working on it" is slightly more informative than "They're still breathing", but not much more.

[mxmadman]

The problem is that in information terms, "They're working on it" is slightly more informative than "They're still breathing", but not much more.

Haha! I agree with this whole-heartidly. Its their job to keep 'working on it', but to think that is an update is ridiculous.

Now if one of their updates was 'we are taking a few weeks off from 'working on it" then that would be an update worth mentioning, but probably not for any good reason.

[Codex]

I think people are reading too much into this.

They are working on it. Coding takes time, and for something like CoD, it takes a $hit load of time.

For the projects I work on I basically lock myself in a room and tell people to pi$$ off and leave me alone. My work mantra is "It will be done when it's done. If it's going to be late I will tell you and I'll explain the reasons why."

The more people poke and prod me about the project, means I have to spend more time in meetings which is less time coding.

Just leave the devs to do thier work, "It will be done when it's done".

If you want a distraction from the waiting, play RoF, Ka-50, A-10. For me I've taken up Scuba diving ... lol

[mxmadman]

I think people are reading too much into this.

They are working on it. Coding takes time, and for something like CoD, it takes a $hit load of time.

For the projects I work on I basically lock myself in a room and tell people to pi$$ off and leave me alone. My work mantra is "It will be done when it's done. If it's going to be late I will tell you and I'll explain the reasons why."

The more people poke and prod me about the project, means I have to spend more time in meetings which is less time coding.

Just leave the devs to do thier work, "It will be done when it's done".

If you want a distraction from the waiting, play RoF, Ka-50, A-10. For me I've taken up Scuba diving ... lol

So.. when one of your projects that 'will be done when its done' is going to be late, do you also recommend that your clients go to your competition for their products while they wait?

If so, how's business holdin' up?

[addman]

I think people are reading too much into this.

They are working on it. Coding takes time, and for something like CoD, it takes a $hit load of time.

For the projects I work on I basically lock myself in a room and tell people to pi$$ off and leave me alone. My work mantra is "It will be done when it's done. If it's going to be late I will tell you and I'll explain the reasons why."

The more people poke and prod me about the project, means I have to spend more time in meetings which is less time coding.

Just leave the devs to do thier work, "It will be done when it's done".

If you want a distraction from the waiting, play RoF, Ka-50, A-10. For me I've taken up Scuba diving ... lol

Reminded me of this

http://i29.tinypic.com/27x020l.gif

"I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people! Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?"

[DroopSnoot]

In my opinion the updates probably have been more frequent than any other game I bought

LOL because it was virtually unplayable to ALL on release and they had to do something, you dont think they patched out of the goodness of their hearts do you.
The patches people are refering to are the ones we havent even seen yet.

[Codex]

So.. when one of your projects that 'will be done when its done' is going to be late, do you also recommend that your clients go to your competition for their products while they wait?

If so, how's business holdin' up?

Well I'm employed by a bank as a developer for the corporate sector, so I have no competition, only deadlines. I'm probably fortunate that I'm not a contract developer, but having said that, the contractors only real competition is at the job seeking level.

With regards to CoD what "competition" is there? I've already said if you need to fill the simming void there are other sims out there. But you know as well as others, we will all come back to IL-2 CoD eventually.

BTW Business is great for me. During my contract days honesty was the best policy and if I felt the "competition" would do a better job than me, I would refer my clients to them as did the competition did for me. It's bad for business to say you can do the job, knowing full well that you can't. You only hurt yourself in the end.

[mxmadman]

Well I'm employed by a bank as a developer for the corporate sector, so I have no competition, only deadlines. I'm probably fortunate that I'm not a contract developer, but having said that, the contractors only real competition is at the job seeking level.

With regards to CoD what "competition" is there? I've already said if you need to fill the simming void there are other sims out there. But you know as well as others, we will all come back to IL-2 CoD eventually.

BTW Business is great for me. During my contract days honesty was the best policy and if I felt the "competition" would do a better job than me, I would refer my clients to them as did the competition did for me. It's bad for business to say you can do the job, knowing full well that you can't. You only hurt yourself in the end.

I respect your response, sorry for being a little passive aggressive. The competition I referred to are the games you listed in your last post.

The difference between how you operate and how 1C operates is your dedication to honest communication. As stated earlier, 'we're working on it' is such a vague response that borders on insulting our intelligence.

Deadlines are broken by everyone, for an unlimited number of reasons. Its how you respond to those set backs that makes, in this case a company, what it is.

[Codex]

No need to apologize, it's all good, I didn't take it as being aggressive.

I think that the "secrecy" aspect to development can frustrate people hence the constant barrage of threads and posts saying "are we there yet?".

Until you've had some involvement in the process it can seem like they're doing nothing and only sending out notices every Friday say we're still working on it.

It's all about patience and ... GOOD DISTRACTION

http://gluttonforlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sir-ben-530x397.jpg

[robtek]

It is a question of trust.

Either you trust the devs when they say they are working on the patch, then you'll know its ready when its released.

Or you dont trust the devs when they say they are working on the patch, calling them liars by that, then it doesn't matter what is posted as you would only believe it when it fits your opinion.

I, for my part, trust the devs, because they are working to get their baby running, to get their jobs paid, to ge me the flightsim i adore.

The only way for the devs to get the trust back from the people who didn't have enough, is to present the patch, not talking to people who wont believe anything anyway.

[Insuber]

If you want examples of a correct customer - developer relationship, look at the iPad apps. The developers - most of them - have websites with development plans, public bug lists, blogs, Q&A. They normally answer to emails by the hour. If you want an example:

http://notesplusapp.com/versions/development-progress

Those devs want to retain the existing customers, and attract new ones showing an excellent after sale support. It counts a lot.

[robtek]

I'd rather have the devs doing a job they know, instead of wasting time in forums.

Once the sim is working at a adequate level there may be resources left for that.

And alienating customers who have already paid and have run out of patience? Well, the only solution is a working patch, not sweet talking.

Oh, and Apple and Co have to have good customer relations to sell their not really cheap stuff.

[Insuber]

I'd rather have the devs doing a job they know, instead of wasting time in forums.

Once the sim is working at a adequate level there may be resources left for that.

And alienating customers who have already paid and have run out of patience? Well, the only solution is a working patch, not sweet talking.

Oh, and Apple and Co have to have good customer relations to sell their not really cheap stuff.

Have you ever purchased an app? They start from .79 €, most of them cost 2-3 euros. Not really expensive stuff. And what you call sweet talking ... OMG I stop here.

[Chivas]

I don't see any secrecy coming from the devs. At this point we know people are rewriting the graphic code, testing, and rewriting until it works to allow for better performance and headroom. We know they have other people working on the AI, FM, DM, Commands etc. They don't have to tell me every week they are still rewriting and testing as that should be fairly obvious. Its also a job you can't put a timeframe too, after testing each patch build it either works or there are new bugs to fix. If the development goes under we should know in less than a week as the Russian COD forums will get wind of it quickly.

[CaptainDoggles]

I'd rather have the devs doing a job they know, instead of wasting time in forums.

This is a false dichotomy. Somewhere down the line, somebody started spreading the notion that Maddox Games can't be communicative and also develop a halfway decent sim at the same time.

I don't believe that to be true.

[ATAG_Bliss]

An app's target audience could be in the millions though. And some of those teams all share the same profits equally. It makes sense to have a lead you by the hand type atmosphere. I don't think comparing it to a flight sim, the most complex type of game out there with the smallest target audience, is really fitting.

I don't really see Luthier talking much less than he ever did. Oleg always did it. Should he have stepped up IMO??, sure, but it's not like Luthier has stopped communicating. He never really did anyway. B6 is at least trying though. It's a shame that we don't get anything new anymore thanks to the negativity. I'd love to see more of the sequel every week.

And it's obvious that there isn't gonna be a game engine for the sequel to run on until they fix the 1st one, BOB.

[Insuber]

An app's target audience could be in the millions though. And some of those teams all share the same profits equally. It makes sense to have a lead you by the hand type atmosphere. I don't think comparing it to a flight sim, the most complex type of game out there with the smallest target audience, is really fitting.

I don't really see Luthier talking much less than he ever did. Oleg always did it. Should he have stepped up IMO??, sure, but it's not like Luthier has stopped communicating. He never really did anyway. B6 is at least trying though. It's a shame that we don't get anything new anymore thanks to the negativity. I'd love to see more of the sequel every week.

And it's obvious that there isn't gonna be a game engine for the sequel to run on until they fix the 1st one, BOB.

The first Il2 was sold in 6 or 7 million copies, IIRC.

[Chivas]

This is a false dichotomy. Somewhere down the line, somebody started spreading the notion that Maddox Games can't be communicative and also develop a halfway decent sim at the same time.

I don't believe that to be true.

I would assume there have been a number of good sims developed that had no contact with prospective buyers during the development. I know all I need to know about the COD development. I know they are still working on the sim and will update us when they have something worth updating.

[ATAG_Bliss]

The first Il2 was sold in 6 or 7 million copies, IIRC.

Yeah I agree, but it's a combination of 10+ years of updates, patches, expansions, etc.

Are you saying that cliffs of dover sold the same amount or better yet FB sold the same amount in the 1st 3 months that angry birds did when it was released?

Cmon now Insuber - not exactly apples/apples type comparison here.

[addman]

The first Il2 was sold in 6 or 7 million copies, IIRC.

Only the original IL-2 from 2001?! 6-7 million?! That can't be, many triple A console games don't sell half of that but are still considered successes. If they really sold that many copies no wonder they took their time developing CloD.

If the whole of the il-2 series have sold more than a million copies through the years it's enough to consider the game a success.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Heck, just look at some recent youtube videos of 46. There's still people asking everyday, "what game is this? Where can I buy it?" I bet the amount of copies still being sold today would probably surprise you..

[carguy_]

The first Il2 was sold in 6 or 7 million copies, IIRC.
Uhuh, maybe from 2001 to 2010. Then again, you must have some good info that you would provide to us to prove it. Or maybe just link something to make us think it`s even highly likely.

[Chivas]

The first Il2 was sold in 6 or 7 million copies, IIRC.

I would bet that the initial sales of COD were higher than the initial sales of the original IL-2 . The original IL-2 sold slowly by word of mouth and took time to build momentum, while with COD everyone in the flight sim community new about it and people would have bought it sight unseen on the developers reputation. Thats probably the only reason the development didn't fold after the initial unfinished release as enough copies were sold to keep the development solvent long enough that its possible it could be finished.

[Insuber]

Only the original IL-2 from 2001?! 6-7 million?! That can't be, many triple A console games don't sell half of that but are still considered successes. If they really sold that many copies no wonder they took their time developing CloD.

If the whole of the il-2 series have sold more than a million copies through the years it's enough to consider the game a success.

Not the first only, all the Il2 editions and sequels until 2009. FB, AEP, PF, 1946. The figure was given by an UBI Forum mod some years ago.

[carguy_]

Not the first only, all the Il2 editions and sequels until 2009. FB, AEP, PF, 1946. The figure was given by an UBI Forum mod some years ago.
Get your facts straight already.

[Insuber]

Uhuh, maybe from 2001 to 2010. Then again, you must have some good info that you would provide to us to prove it. Or maybe just link something to make us think it`s even highly likely.

Sorry carguy, I'm not here to prove anything to anybody, yourself included. I hope that you understand this.

[Insuber]

Get your facts straight already.

Pardon? You are kidding, I hope.

[kendo65]

Here's a thought - actually a potential resolution to the whole dev update or not issue.

Let's say that 50% of people on this forum feel, like you do, that they're not bothered if they get an update or not.

Let's say that 50% of people on the forum would like (to varying degrees) an update.

Here's the crazy idea - why don't the people who don't give a damn either way just accept the fact that the other 50% would like it and let them get on with asking for it? It won't matter to you either way - if the devs respond and give an update you don't even have to look at it, if it would annoy you all so much.

Live and let live, I say.

slight touch of sarcasm creeping in - sorry

[Wolf_Rider]

How about just quit the hassling and give everyone a break?

[carguy_]

Let's say that 50% of people on the forum would like (to varying degrees) an update.

Here's the crazy idea - why don't the people who don't give a damn either way just accept the fact that the other 50% would like it and let them get on with asking for it? It won't matter to you either way - if the devs respond and give an update you don't even have to look at it, if it would annoy you all so much.

Some of those varied degrees do not deserve to be tolerated.

You seem to forget that by shouting at them, accusing them of theft and demanding everything you ruin other`s interest in reading anything 1C has to say, even if it doesn`t suit your varying degrees. Deal with it.

[kendo65]

How about just quit the hassling and give everyone a break?

Mr. hypocrite.

[kendo65]

Some of those varied degrees do not deserve to be tolerated.

You seem to forget that by shouting at them, accusing them of theft and demanding everything you ruin other`s interest in reading anything 1C has to say, even if it doesn`t suit your varying degrees. Deal with it.

Mr. Authoritarian.

[Chivas]

Here's a thought - actually a potential resolution to the whole dev update or not issue.

Let's say that 50% of people on this forum feel, like you do, that they're not bothered if they get an update or not.

Let's say that 50% of people on the forum would like (to varying degrees) an update.

Here's the crazy idea - why don't the people who don't give a damn either way just accept the fact that the other 50% would like it and let them get on with asking for it? It won't matter to you either way - if the devs respond and give an update you don't even have to look at it, if it would annoy you all so much.

Live and let live, I say.

slight touch of sarcasm creeping in - sorry

Here's a thought, heed your own advice.

[Insuber]

<<<<You can close your eyes for a message containing a pure and perfect hatred for us and our work. It happens. However, most of the negative posts, the forum on the west for example, is based on a completely fair reproach and conclusions. Another question is that they are not of interest because of the repetitive, but the problem of this does not disappear, and it has to be dealt with. What I write here - so far only my vision of the situation and recommendations of the top, this is not a final decision is not leadership.>>>>

Mr. BlackSix

[Wolf_Rider]

yes, correct... but to whinge and hassle in each and every thread goes beyond that, and what has it got you?


Mr. hypocrite.

getting to you is it?
Well then, how do you think others feel ?

[kendo65]

"When you find yourself trolling your own thread it is probably time to go to bed"

Mr. Confucius

G'night folks...;)