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Juri_JS
03-02-2012, 03:28 PM
Hello Daidalos Team, I have a question concerning the maximum range and fuel capacity of the G4M1-11.
I was flying a mission with the G4M1-11 on the Solomon Islands map in 4.11. The start airfield was in the south of Bougainville and the target was at Tulagi. Most of the time I used the autopilot. The speed was 320, the altitude 3500 m and fuel in the tanks was set to 100. On the way back I ran out of fuel before reaching my airfield, although in reality the Betty was able to make this trip without problems.

When I flew the same mission with a fully loaded D3A1 it flew to the target and back to the airfield without running out of fuel, although it should have a shorter range than the G4M1.

Could you please take a look at the G4M1-11 to see if the historical correct fuel capacity is used in the game?

Luno13
03-02-2012, 04:44 PM
What power settings were you using to cruise?

Juri_JS
03-02-2012, 04:50 PM
I used the autopilot for 95% of the time, so I don't think it was caused by using the wrong engine settings.

Treetop64
03-02-2012, 06:07 PM
Fuel leak from flak damage on the way back, maybe. The G4M1 had no self-sealing fuel tanks.

Juri_JS
03-02-2012, 06:28 PM
Fuel leak from flak damage on the way back, maybe. The G4M1 had no self-sealing fuel tanks.
There are no enemy flak guns in the mission.

I flew the mission again, but this time completely on autopilot and the results were the same. The player plane ran out of fuel first. The AI G4M1 flew some minutes longer and then their engines stopped too and they ditched. I also tested the mission without bombs, but this didn't made a difference.
In real life the distance between Bougainville and Tulagi is around 560 km, which shouldn't be a problem for a Betty.

I have uploaded the mission for those who like to test it. Because of the long flight time I recommend using the time-skip option.
http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/Skins/Juri_JS/G4M1_Test.zip

I hope someone can take a look at the data of the G4M1-11 to see if something is wrong with the fuel capacity.

Luno13
03-02-2012, 10:24 PM
One of the things fixed in 4.11 was fuel capacity of some planes. Maybe a bug was introduced. I'll try to test the Betty today.

PS - you need to upload the .mis file and .properties file.

Juri_JS
03-02-2012, 10:50 PM
The .properties file isn't needed, it is empty anyway. The .mis file is enough to play the mission.

koivis
03-03-2012, 12:24 AM
I made a report of this but over a year ago (version 4.09, not a new bug), with no reply. Hope this gets fixed, as currently the G4M indeed doesn't have the range it should.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=174596&postcount=233

Note: I used a specific fuel consumption of 0,25 kg/hp/h which is my estimate for a WWII piston engine.

Betty's ingame range is about 1/3 of the real figure. One could do a similar test (with lower fuel load in order to not go crazy) with proper cruise settings, but my calculations alone should prove that something is wrong. Either it's the amount of fuel, or consumption or both.

Juri_JS
03-03-2012, 09:26 AM
I made a report of this but over a year ago (version 4.09, not a new bug), with no reply. Hope this gets fixed, as currently the G4M indeed doesn't have the range it should.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=174596&postcount=233

Note: I used a specific fuel consumption of 0,25 kg/hp/h which is my estimate for a WWII piston engine.

Betty's ingame range is about 1/3 of the real figure. One could do a similar test (with lower fuel load in order to not go crazy) with proper cruise settings, but my calculations alone should prove that something is wrong. Either it's the amount of fuel, or consumption or both.

My tests show exactly the same result, the in-game Betty has only 1/3 of the real range.
Let's hope that this time the issue doesn't get ignored by TD.

Luno13
03-07-2012, 07:55 AM
From what I can tell, the Betty may indeed have shortened range, but it's not so bad.

At 5000 meters, mixture 40%, supercharger stage 2, power and prop-pitch 45% and trimmed level, range was 1,800 kilometers. If I mess around a bit, I might be able to do better.

Wiki says the range was 2,852 km.

It's worth noting that even when selecting 100% fuel, the fuel gauges in the Betty don't show maximum capacity.

I will try some more tests.

PS - It's also worth mentioning that the AI seem to be very bad at fuel management. I've made a test a long time ago in which the AI flew the entire sortie for me and I ran out of gas a half-hour sooner than the rest of the flight.

Luno13
03-07-2012, 09:45 AM
Ok, I just tested the mission.

I was flying the whole time and I used the above settings. I did not run out of fuel, and I had enough to make it to the target again, if not further, had I so desired. My AI wingmen were able to land.

For those who haven't played the mission, the journey was over 1,100 km with 750 kg of bombs and I think I could have gone at least 1,600km under these circumstances.

I flew the mission again and this time I allowed the AI to control my plane. I ran out of fuel on the way back to base. The AI had practically full power and prop-pitch, full mixture and no supercharger engaged.

I thought DT had fixed this in a previous patch. Maybe it's broken now.

Anyway, I got to the target much faster, but I used gas at least 2 times faster as well. Not even the other AI in my flight could make it back.

Even if the Betty has the wrong fuel range, the bigger issue at hand is the power settings of the player and AI. I'll see if I can improve the range further, but it seems like the range only 2/3 of actual. At least it's not as bad as what was initially thought.

PS - It's a pretty good mission Juri, but there are a few issues:

- Spotlights in the middle of the runway are a hazard to the AI (each one that landed hit them). I also managed to clip my wing on one.

- I got a "Mission Over" message about half-way to the target when I flew it the first time under fully manual control. I guess there is a time limit for the attack, which should be adjusted if the player is flying the whole time.

- The second component of my flight got lost and simply circled the base the entire time, even when I called them to rejoin. I think this has to do with DT's latest feature of clouds blocking the AI's view of other planes. As such, I only had half the force make it to the target. Maybe the initial way-points can be adjusted.

Juri_JS
03-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Ok, I just tested the mission.

I was flying the whole time and I used the above settings. I did not run out of fuel, and I had enough to make it to the target again, if not further, had I so desired. My AI wingmen were able to land.

For those who haven't played the mission, the journey was over 1,100 km with 750 kg of bombs and I think I could have gone at least 1,600km under these circumstances.

I flew the mission again and this time I allowed the AI to control my plane. I ran out of fuel on the way back to base. The AI had practically full power and prop-pitch, full mixture and no supercharger engaged.

I thought DT had fixed this in a previous patch. Maybe it's broken now.

Anyway, I got to the target much faster, but I used gas at least 2 times faster as well. Not even the other AI in my flight could make it back.

Even if the Betty has the wrong fuel range, the bigger issue at hand is the power settings of the player and AI. I'll see if I can improve the range further, but it seems like the range only 2/3 of actual. At least it's not as bad as what was initially thought.


Thanks for your tests Luno. Given the fact that I was able to fly the same mission with the D3A on autopilot and I didn't ran out of fuel, I think the main problem is the wrong fuel capacity of the ingame G4M1, I guess the AI is just a secondary factor.

To further investigate the problem it will be necessary to look at the ingame data, to see which fuel capacity value is used for the Betty. I had hoped that TD could do that, but so far there was no reaction.


PS - It's a pretty good mission Juri, but there are a few issues:

- Spotlights in the middle of the runway are a hazard to the AI (each one that landed hit them). I also managed to clip my wing on one.

- I got a "Mission Over" message about half-way to the target when I flew it the first time under fully manual control. I guess there is a time limit for the attack, which should be adjusted if the player is flying the whole time.

- The second component of my flight got lost and simply circled the base the entire time, even when I called them to rejoin. I think this has to do with DT's latest feature of clouds blocking the AI's view of other planes. As such, I only had half the force make it to the target. Maybe the initial way-points can be adjusted.

The mission was just for testing the fuel capacity problem of the Betty, that's why I didn't cared for the other issues in the mission.;)
The map template comes from a DGen campaign project I am working on at the moment.

Here is the WIP thread of the campaign:
http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2283

The fuel issue of the Betty is a big problem for my campaign, that's the reason why I started this topic.

HarryM
03-07-2012, 04:52 PM
As a work around you could try changing cruise and altitude settings in PacificPlanes.dat. Cruise height is always set to 4KM, and if the AI is not engaging supercharger at 3KM as it should, then drop cruise height to 3KM. You could incrementally drop the speed down as well, from 350KPH to 340KPH, etc.

Juri_JS
03-07-2012, 05:13 PM
As a work around you could try changing cruise and altitude settings in PacificPlanes.dat. Cruise height is always set to 4KM, and if the AI is not engaging supercharger at 3KM as it should, then drop cruise height to 3KM. You could incrementally drop the speed down as well, from 350KPH to 340KPH, etc.

I am already doing that. With the speed set to 280 in the Planes.dat file the Bettys are able to reach the target and return to their airfield, but only when no detours are flown and the slow speed is used the whole time. The problem is, that this makes the missions very long, even with time compression. Only lowering the height had no effect.

_1SMV_Gitano
03-12-2012, 09:34 AM
G4M fuel load is being checked

:)

Juri_JS
03-12-2012, 11:11 AM
G4M fuel load is being checked

:)

Thanks Gitano, good to hear that.

I wonder if the problem is the fuel capacity itself or if the fuel consumption is simulated incorrectly in the game.

KG26_Alpha
03-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Are the AI using Mixture, Pitch and Superchargers ?

IIRC they didn't used to use supercharger stages.

Luno13
03-12-2012, 05:17 PM
Are the AI using Mixture, Pitch and Superchargers ?

IIRC they didn't used to use supercharger stages.

If you select Autopilot, the AI doesn't seem to be doing anything except regulating manifold pressure. This is strange, because I remember DT fixing this problem.