A mod approval thought for 4.09 for the 1C team

[x__CRASH__x]

I'm not sure if civil mod talk is taboo, but I wanted to air out a thought I had on the subject. I haven't downloaded or used any of the mods. But I don't disagree with them. I do worry about them going out of control and cheating will follow. So I had a thought.

From what I know, there have been some very good gains made with mods. They've put cockpits in some of the AI planes that would be fun to fly. They "corrected" a few things the modders believed to be wrong with the sim. They've upgraded the cockpit graphics of a few airplanes. And they've improved the sounds, from what I am told.

So, since the work is essentially done for these modifications, would it not be pretty easy for the 1C team to review the mods, evaluate their merits, incorporate them into a patch, and lock the game back up so no "nefarious", "questionsable" or downright "cheating" modifications make it into the game?

I essence, modders do the work and submit it to 1C who approves/disapproves it. Incorporates it in a patch, and releases it to the community. The community could even get involved voting on what mods they want included or left out.

What's the downside side? I only see positives. Improvements are made to an already fantastic, long standing game. 1C doesn't have to take much time away from their work on other projects. 1C keeps the IL-2 series locked up and hack free. The community is happy, and has new toys to play with.

Is there a downside?

[Chivas]

The downside is...it will be a waste of time for IC....No matter how long it takes for them to release SOW. I doubt if they could spare a minute even to look at the issue with the amount of work required to complete their long delayed SOW project. Sure there will be a few players continue to use and mod the IL-2 series, but the majority of players will move on to the far more immersive SOW series.

As far as On-line.....I would say you'd be hard pressed to find a server in hyperlobby with the game settings, theater, and mods that you would prefer to fly after most of the on-line crowd move on to SOW.

I did download the new sounds and liked some aspects, but there were enough bad sounds and bugs that I prefer the original.

[Robert]

Why should they take ANY time away from current projects? IL2 is about an inch from being abandonwear. It's development life (with the exception of the 4.09 patch) is done. There's no more money to be made from IL2 so anything we get in the form of the 4.09 patch is gravy. Expecting 1C to add in 'illegal' hacks to me is quite insulting.

"Here ya go Oleg. Your game was so bad WE decided to improve it for you. Could you be so kind to include them into 4.09? It won't be to hard to make sure it doesn't affect other portions of the game. It won't take but a few of your guys to impliment it. Don't worry about the lost man hours you'll still have to pay. We're such an appreciative forum and any efforts will still be met with derision and scorn. Thank you very much, buddy. Love you Oleg."

I know you mean well, CRASH but my answer would be a HUGE and emphatic NO to that suggestion.

Furthermore. I'd rather have nothing interfere with the developement of BoB.






Oh wait. Is this one of those add an FW into the BoB questions? You got me.

[Feuerfalke]

Why should they take ANY time away from current projects? IL2 is about an inch from being abandonwear. It's development life (with the exception of the 4.09 patch) is done. There's no more money to be made from IL2 so anything we get in the form of the 4.09 patch is gravy. Expecting 1C to add in 'illegal' hacks to me is quite insulting.

"Here ya go Oleg. Your game was so bad WE decided to improve it for you. Could you be so kind to include them into 4.09? It won't be to hard to make sure it doesn't affect other portions of the game. It won't take but a few of your guys to impliment it. Don't worry about the lost man hours you'll still have to pay. We're such an appreciative forum and any efforts will still be met with derision and scorn. Thank you very much, buddy. Love you Oleg."

I know you mean well, CRASH but my answer would be a HUGE and emphatic NO to that suggestion.

Furthermore. I'd rather have nothing interfere with the developement of BoB.

+1

Well said.

[ytareh]

Well I for one totally agree with the original poster.I love the mods but dont use them online .They greatly enhance the game .In fact I am slightly moving back to offline play as a result.

[x__CRASH__x]

My worry is this: How long will players be happy going from several hundred flyable aircraft to just a handful? Yes it will be different, and look better, and fly better. But when you go from so much to so little, how long before boredom becomes a factor? Sure, eventually the SOW series will incorporate more aircraft. But after initial release, we get what we get.

I'm predicting that IL-2 won't dry up like some of you are predicting. I think it has the legs to be around a long time. However, what you say about distracting from other projects, with no profit to 1C has merit, and I can see how that will make the idea a deal breaker.

[nearmiss]

My understanding is...

If mods are in the mods folder the game is same as 4.09bm (if beta installed) and Online play will not be affected by mods.

True or not true?

[jermin]

The downside is...it will be a waste of time for IC....No matter how long it takes for them to release SOW. I doubt if they could spare a minute even to look at the issue with the amount of work required to complete their long delayed SOW project. Sure there will be a few players continue to use and mod the IL-2 series, but the majority of players will move on to the far more immersive SOW series.

As far as On-line.....I would say you'd be hard pressed to find a server in hyperlobby with the game settings, theater, and mods that you would prefer to fly after most of the on-line crowd move on to SOW.

I did download the new sounds and liked some aspects, but there were enough bad sounds and bugs that I prefer the original.

I don't think most IL2 players will shift to BoB immediately after its release. Most late-war pilots will wait untill their favorite rides such as FW190 and P51 show up in the game. I believe IL2 will exist together with BoB for a very long time. Lets say 3 years. With more than 200 planes to fly, IL2 is more like an air war compared to BoB. As for immersion, IL2 still gets a lot of potentials. IMO Immersion can be achieved in many diffrent ways, not only by enhencing graphics. IL2 supports multiplayer of up to 128 players. Just imagine an air engagement between squads, say 8 vs 8, in an online server, not individuals or pairs. But have we ever seen a single server with 128 players playing in it? Most online missions have olny a limited quantity of ground objects because they eat up fps significantly, which makes the ground surface quite bleak. With graphics cards of 8800 level prevail, these problems will be easilly solved. Nontheless, With all special effects turned on, such as water=4, typecloud=1, effects=2, forests=3, LandGeom=3, high AA AF, Vsync, IL2 still looks quite up-to-date. If Oleg approves and regulates the unofficial mods, I don't even see a reason to go for BoB.

[nearmiss]

I don't think most IL2 players will shift to BoB immediately after its release. Most late-war pilots will wait untill their favorite rides such as FW190 and P51 show up in the game. I believe IL2 will exist together with BoB for a very long time. Lets say 3 years. With more than 200 planes to fly, IL2 is more like an air war compared to BoB. As for immersion, IL2 still gets a lot of potentials. IMO Immersion can be achieved in many ways, not only by enhencing graphics. IL2 supports multiplayer game of up to 128 players. Just imagine an air fight between squads, say 8 vs 8, in an online server, not individuals or pairs. But have we ever seen a single server with 128 players playing in it? Most online missions have olny a limited quantity of ground objects because they eat up fps significantly, which makes the ground surface quite bleak. With graphics cards of 8800 level prevail, these problems will be easilly solved. Nontheless, With all special effects turned on, such as water=4, typecloud=1, effects=2, forests=3, LandGeom=3, high AA AF, Vsync, IL2 still looks quite up-to-date. If Oleg approves and regulates the unofficial mods, I don't even see a reason to go for BoB.

I do the BOB II WOV now and it's great fun. Trying to shoot down anything with six .303 is... well a lesson in patience and exasperation. I feel sorry for those poor pilots that had to face the German fighters with those 20MM cannons. My gosh, to be so smart the Brits weren't awake when they put so little firepower into their fighters. Spits or Hurricanes, just weren't ready for much. The British pilots were just one heck of a bunch of great men, real heroes in my book.

Those .303 were like peashooters up next to those 20mm cannons.

So, yeah the BOB SOW will not be as much fun as taking a late model spit and flying against just about any kind of enemy online currently.

[Chivas]

I think the more advanced aircraft model will make the high rate of fire 303's more effective. Although I find the existing hitting power of the Hurricane very effective in IL-2. Sure there will be a few people hang on to IL-2 and I don't blame them as it is a classic, BUT BOB should be far more immersive. The off-line people will be able to stay with IL-2 longer, but the on-liners will probably have to move on just to get the numbers on the server to make for a good experience. By the time some people get bored with BOB the next addition to the series should be on hand.

[csThor]

Why should they take ANY time away from current projects? IL2 is about an inch from being abandonwear. It's development life (with the exception of the 4.09 patch) is done. There's no more money to be made from IL2 so anything we get in the form of the 4.09 patch is gravy. Expecting 1C to add in 'illegal' hacks to me is quite insulting.

"Here ya go Oleg. Your game was so bad WE decided to improve it for you. Could you be so kind to include them into 4.09? It won't be to hard to make sure it doesn't affect other portions of the game. It won't take but a few of your guys to impliment it. Don't worry about the lost man hours you'll still have to pay. We're such an appreciative forum and any efforts will still be met with derision and scorn. Thank you very much, buddy. Love you Oleg."

I know you mean well, CRASH but my answer would be a HUGE and emphatic NO to that suggestion.

Furthermore. I'd rather have nothing interfere with the developement of BoB.

+2

[DioMac]

+2

-1

Might not be the right place for this post but here goes...

As someone who has had IL2 since the demo and have lurked the zoo since the early days I must say the "feel" of BoB and this "community" is much different. The forum almost reminds me of my CWoS days (I went by the name of Rhino). It's cold and the eCliques are very obvious. As for BoB its blatantly obvious that the devs are much more $ focused this time around.

As for the rotting remains of the zoo, I have counted over ten new posts by new comers coming to the game, but they mostly just get ignored or if they inoccently ask about the unspeakable that they have heard about then they get flamed it never come back. it's a real shame.

It's enought to put me off buying BoB if it ever comes out. I think I'll be happy to stay with IL2 and the incredible enhancements visual and immersability (I know thats not a word) that the unspeakable has bought to my gaming experience.

[Baron]

I'm not sure if civil mod talk is taboo, but I wanted to air out a thought I had on the subject. I haven't downloaded or used any of the mods. But I don't disagree with them. I do worry about them going out of control and cheating will follow. So I had a thought.

From what I know, there have been some very good gains made with mods. They've put cockpits in some of the AI planes that would be fun to fly. They "corrected" a few things the modders believed to be wrong with the sim. They've upgraded the cockpit graphics of a few airplanes. And they've improved the sounds, from what I am told.

So, since the work is essentially done for these modifications, would it not be pretty easy for the 1C team to review the mods, evaluate their merits, incorporate them into a patch, and lock the game back up so no "nefarious", "questionsable" or downright "cheating" modifications make it into the game?

I essence, modders do the work and submit it to 1C who approves/disapproves it. Incorporates it in a patch, and releases it to the community. The community could even get involved voting on what mods they want included or left out.

What's the downside side? I only see positives. Improvements are made to an already fantastic, long standing game. 1C doesn't have to take much time away from their work on other projects. 1C keeps the IL-2 series locked up and hack free. The community is happy, and has new toys to play with.

Is there a downside?


The problem with that, as far as i can see, is that modders can release mods weather 1C approves of them or not since the code is out there and as for the time beeing there isnt any cheat filter online.

The "3:rd" party modder doesnt lose anything by not abiding to 1C rules as where the case (im sure) when 3:rd party developers did work in the past before the code was cracked.(or maby it was the locked code that prevented them from going beserk....i wouldnt know)

so approved mods in the future is kind of pointless since there will also be a boat load of non approved mods out there no matter what.



Not long ago AAA did NOT "allow" FM, DM (weapons) changes but now it seems thats out the window with for ex. a completly new Spit Mk1 with a completly new flight model done by people in the manner they "think" it should be, the same people who a few months ago did not allow FM, DM changes btw. If it was only 1 singel ac done to fit the whole game/gameplay it might be passeble, but everyone knows it wont stop there.

Rules ar fine..as long as people follow them...wich they don`t .....if one dont force them (with locked code for axample)

[DioMac]

Not long ago AAA did NOT "allow" FM, DM (weapons) changes but now it seems thats out the window with for ex. a completly new Spit Mk1 with a completly new flight model done by people in the manner they "think" it should be, the same people who a few months ago did not allow FM, DM changes btw. If it was only 1 singel ac done to fit the whole game/gameplay it might be passeble, but everyone knows it wont stop there.

Rules ar fine..as long as people follow them...wich they don`t .....if one dont force them (with locked code for axample)[/QUOTE]


And is God...Sorry I mean Oleg any different? How many notable people in the community bitch and scream about how their favourite ride is wrong because Oleg and Co were biased in the coding of the 'plane becasue thats how they think it should be? the F6F as an example.

Whats the difference Baron? AAA are extremely vigilant with FM DM changes. Just as vicous as certain people are in their denouncement of those using mods (Which for some reason they persist in calling a "hack") sometimes I havent been able to tell the difference. If someone posts there asking "can I have it this way becasue its super cool and I dont like it how it is" they are quickly banished or told to move along and the threads are often locked. Same as you people are at the zoo and here.

As for the Spit Mk.1 I have and I must say that it isn't some idiots wet dream. they have done a top notch job on it. The carby cutout works just right and so does the lack of firepower and I could go on and on.

Ultimately I think it comes down to a matter of pride. You have the newer younger generation who are getting into simming, and you have the adult jaded group who want to leave things as they are.

I know this post is incoherent. It's later and I'm very tired. I'll probably shake my head in embaressment when i read it tomorow but I'm just so sick of the stupidity and hypocrisy that some people have

[Thunderbolt56]

Not long ago AAA did NOT "allow" FM, DM (weapons) changes but now it seems thats out the window with for ex. a completly new Spit Mk1 with a completly new flight model done by people in the manner they "think" it should be, the same people who a few months ago did not allow FM, DM changes btw...


I guess that's the thing I take issue with overall. I lurk over at AAA and have done considerable reading on what IS being done, what HAS been done and what's NOT ALLOWED to be done... at least for now. The "idea" of finally getting a MKI Spit is cool, but the whole thing goes against what heretofore was taboo. So, in that regard, I don't get it. Are there rules in the mod community? They say there are, but apparently some have the notion they're above the law or can change them if they feel like it...regardless of how much integrity they think they use in the implementation.

I've heard great things about the MKI as well as the very good "slot" map that's close to release and, for now at least, it seems the people that do it to truly enhance the sim are the ones in charge. I'm just worried about the less-trustworthy people that truly DO hack and I'm growing more exhausted at feeling I have to scrutinize everyone so closely. All the rumors that the sky is falling, IL2 is dead, the UBI forums are a rotting corpse etc,... are vastly over rated. Things have changed and they certainly aren't what they were even a year ago, but all of them are like a 60 year old...(long in the tooth, but not quite ready for retirement).

We are at a point where people have more choices regarding this sim and most will make good choices. It's the 2% that don't (and the inability to regulate them) that concerns me the most. And just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not advocating against the mods or the mod community. I have some friends that are heavily involved (in both use and developement) and I trust their integrity implicitly. I don't like the fragmentation of the overall community, the possibility of true cheaters getting larger and the resultant accusations (many on false grounds).

[JG53Frankyboy]

I do the BOB II WOV now and it's great fun. Trying to shoot down anything with six .303 is... well a lesson in patience and exasperation. I feel sorry for those poor pilots that had to face the German fighters with those 20MM cannons. My gosh, to be so smart the Brits weren't awake when they put so little firepower into their fighters. Spits or Hurricanes, just weren't ready for much. The British pilots were just one heck of a bunch of great men, real heroes in my book.

Those .303 were like peashooters up next to those 20mm cannons.

So, yeah the BOB SOW will not be as much fun as taking a late model spit and flying against just about any kind of enemy online currently.


well, ask all those Lufwaffe Pilots who had to fly a Bf109E-1 , armed with 4xMG17 ;)

and the E-1 was the second most 109 version used during the BoB !

[csThor]

At least the notion that they (AAA) have any kind of "seniority" or "saying" about the macks provides at least one good laugh a day. Talk about self-delusion. I'd bet my graphics tablet that there are a pile of other sites which "correct" FM/DM. :rolleyes:

[Kaptein_Damli]

I'm not sure if civil mod talk is taboo, but I wanted to air out a thought I had on the subject. I haven't downloaded or used any of the mods. But I don't disagree with them. I do worry about them going out of control and cheating will follow. So I had a thought.

From what I know, there have been some very good gains made with mods. They've put cockpits in some of the AI planes that would be fun to fly. They "corrected" a few things the modders believed to be wrong with the sim. They've upgraded the cockpit graphics of a few airplanes. And they've improved the sounds, from what I am told.

So, since the work is essentially done for these modifications, would it not be pretty easy for the 1C team to review the mods, evaluate their merits, incorporate them into a patch, and lock the game back up so no "nefarious", "questionsable" or downright "cheating" modifications make it into the game?

I essence, modders do the work and submit it to 1C who approves/disapproves it. Incorporates it in a patch, and releases it to the community. The community could even get involved voting on what mods they want included or left out.

What's the downside side? I only see positives. Improvements are made to an already fantastic, long standing game. 1C doesn't have to take much time away from their work on other projects. 1C keeps the IL-2 series locked up and hack free. The community is happy, and has new toys to play with.

Is there a downside?


I coundn´t be more agree! Look at the community around Lock On FC. Look at all the beautyful mods available. Some of the modders over there even got employed by ED to work on Black Shark! That´s the spirit. A mod for sound, 6DOF or even scenery mod only makes the original game looks better. I can´t understand why such mods improve cheating? Ie, you fly at Hyperlobby on a server and surely some user will not have Track Ir. Well, then you are "cheating" because the opposing opponent only uses his hatswitch! Cheating in Lock On FC is not a problem as far I know.

[tater]

To be fair, the notion that "No FM/weapon changes" went out the window with the Spit I is wrong. No weapon/FM changes on aircraft that a player with the stock game can see are permitted. If you changed the FM on the F4F-4, for example, and played online, you'd be a UFO since people with the stock game will see you in an F4F-4, because the F4F-4 exists in their game.

The Spit I is a NEW plane. It has a unique, new, plane slot. I couldn't fly the Spit I online because it would not exist on the server's spawn list since it does not take the place of an extant plane. No more do variant plane types replace the stock plane (with unchanged FM), but they now can be added as brand new planes. Only people with the same mod installed will ever see them.

That's why they waited til they could add entirely new planes to allow a new FM to be added.

tater

[klem]

As one of the older group, let me start by saying that I am not jaded. Also I challenge the idea that the up and comings somehow have some kind of edge over the validity of FMs etc. What hasn't changed is how the aircraft actually flew. Some of the 'jaded' group probably actually know.

The main argument here has circled around modders (or hackers). They are called hackers because they have broken into, or hacked, the game code. I am against them for one simple reason, I don't know their credentials whereas Oleg at least tries to stay true to his.

I don't doubt that some of these guys are as keen as I am to achieve 'realism' but as I said, I don't know them, have no references for them and have no reason to believe they have got it any more right than Oleg. So I would rather it had been left alone because I wouldn't want it to become like CFS used to be (still is?) with ridiculous hacks, FMs etc. It became a joke.

I play this game for the best realism it can give me. The unavoidable truth is that the hackers, good and bad, will grow and the bad ones will destroy the game, not SOW, unless hacks are detected by the online servers and the players kicked off.

If the hackers want to run their own servers thats fine... but whose hacks? How chaotic is that going to become? Or how narrow a player base will it support if they implement "my hacks only" servers.

Roll on SOW:BoB. It will be just as exciting (challenging) using 8 (not 6 btw) .303s against 109Es (two reduced muzzle velocity cannons & m/c guns). Of course we RAF types will get our arses kicked by cannons and superior numbers. At least I hope so, because that's how it was. It isn't about having FUN dammit! It's about the experience! ;)

The subsequent rollouts of 'Leaning towards France', 'North Africa', 'Burma' or whatever will keep our interest alive. And yes, I will still play late war IL2 until SOW gets that far.

And no, I'm not interested in naff 'I can't cope' wonder woman views, transparent frames, pink camouflage, uber death rays... bahhh, humbug..... crochety grumble..... I can get that kind of stuff in an Xbox, Playstation, hacked CFS or whatever.

[uf_josse]

Agreed for the spit.... you can't fly it if not selected by host... so, it don't modified stock FM

Only prob is that this mod show where are the FM stored.for guys that did'nt knot it.... but, don't think a lot of guys can use this info and unpack FM..... so, don't think that will give too much modified FM for stock planes....

[Rama]

The problem is that "not too much" is allready too many to be acceptable for a fair online play...

In any case, no need to "talk too much" about it... everybody knows that online play is since some time allready open for UFO and "flying battleship"... so the only real question is to continue flying online in this context (accepting some "3rd type" encounters from time to time), or playing some other game while waiting for SoW.

[tater]

There are several FM changes I'd happily use offline. I have yet to find one.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Not long ago AAA did NOT "allow" FM, DM (weapons) changes but now it seems thats out the window with for ex. a completly new Spit Mk1 with a completly new flight model done by people in the manner they "think" it should be, the same people who a few months ago did not allow FM, DM changes btw. If it was only 1 singel ac done to fit the whole game/gameplay it might be passeble, but everyone knows it wont stop there.



Just to reiteratte, no fm/dm changes rule still applies, whats happened is they have discovered how to make a totally new aircraft slot. Unless the host has that new aircraft slot selectable in the mission there is no way to use this new AC online. Since this provides that no one can fly this thing online unless specifically allowed by the host this allows the possibility of making new AC with new FM and weapons etc. Things in the works are a spit XIV, B25 strafer, and when we figure out how to convert 3dmax files to il2 mesh files we have sources for the AC submitted to 1C that were never included, like the Fokker, DO 17, and things like that with completed models that were never released. Since these cannot be used online where they are not wanted it's safe to do this. No matter what anyone else says the goal at AAA is still to improve the sim, not to destroy it, AAA does not have total control over what people do with mods but they do have control over what THEY do and will do thier best to do whats best for il2.

[Zinger]

I find it interesting that this has again bogged down into a thread about how bad/good that mods are, etc...
The OP had the right idea .. the anti mod crowd are scared of all the bad "hacks" - well, the OP is suggesting a solution ... have a verifiable set of Mods included by MG ... these would be issued within the game, and would then fall under the CRT=2 umbrella, allowing people to fly regulated mods, rather than opening themselves up to the "hacks".

If I ran a server, I'd damn well be really excited by the Slot, Malta, Nth Africa, Greece, Sicily, CBI, Channel maps that are being made .. they're a heck of a lot better than stock, give whole new worlds to create missions on, and with the flyables, would expand the online experience tenfold.
But, you have to have the CRT=2 set to stop just what the anti-modders fear ... why not accept the OP's idea as a good compromise. You get the best of both worlds. Or are people too blinkered by bias to see the opportunity ?

[Monterey]

There's no more money to be made from IL2

I think you are wrong there. We see a few new virtual fliers in the forums every day. I have known of several who have just bought this sim, and it is all new to them. 1946 is still selling well, and there will be money to be made for quite some time. Just because it's old for some, that doesn't mean it's over for everyone else.

I know I will continue to fly with 1946 as well even after BoB comes out, as I am interested in more than a tiny little part of the war. Once more parts of the SoW series come out, then I might make the full switch over. We'll see.

[Rama]

you have to have the CRT=2 set to stop ...

Another one who think CRT=2 do protect against FM/DM/Armament changes...
You're wrong... it's just a little bit more complicated...

The problem isn't the mods, or the "AAA philosophy" or anything like this... it's the availability of the hack tools. Either you're pro- or anti- modder you have to get the fact that IL2 has now no protection against cheat.... and that it's not going to change.

So I repeat, there's only 2 options: either continue flying online and accept to play sometimes with some cheaters.... or wait for SoW:BoB.

[tater]

^^^ truth. A more comprehensive approach is required to prevent cheating completely. Frankly, I think it's overstated anyway. I've had side killer griefers attack me on ZvW a few times. They get booted. That scares you? Play with friends. People you know/respect from the community.

All that said, regarding the point of the thread, it simply ain't gonna happen, lol.

[Former_Older]

I'm going to toss my hat in the ring with a statement that may surprise some people:

"Online cheating" did not start with "the hack", as we have come to know it. Online cheating has been around for longer than this

When the hack started I was very against it, for some valid reasons, mostly, which still is to my mind a thing people are not thinking much about- offline, not online play

But that is moot now. Being against it does not make it go away. It's not going away

So the logical thing to do is not rant and rave and complain. The logical thing to do is to help make accurate mods. Like maps

Aircraft mods, I am not crazy about. Every armchair engineer says "Oleg you is wrong", and that's their opinion, but this is also true:

Seeing a wrong answer doesn't mean you know the right one, and I fear very much that all too many people think that just becasue they see an error, makes them an expert on accuracy

[LEXX]

The only thing Oleg can help with is FB/PF modding tools, but that could take some resources away from BoB And Beyond. I'd rather see Oleg work on BoB modding tools. FB/PF modding seems to be in the hands of the paying customers now, as it would be in an open sim.

A better outcome:: Oleg sees the customer's efforts and creations, and finally discovers through them what is needed for a combat flight sim beyond simple Online Dogfight Competition Shooter simulation.


ytareh:: Well I for one totally agree with the original poster.I love the mods but dont use them online .They greatly enhance the game .In fact I am slightly moving back to offline play as a result.
Why retreat? I'd guess that more and more Online players in private servers are modding up as we poast. These customers use the only anti-cheat protection that has ever worked and will ever work -- social rejection. Find them if you wish.

** There is another way. Pay-To-Play can also help ensure not just anti-cheat protection, but anti-piracy protection as well.

[LEXX]

ChuckOlder:: Aircraft mods, I am not crazy about. Every armchair engineer says "Oleg you is wrong", and that's their opinion, but this is also true:

Seeing a wrong answer doesn't mean you know the right one, and I fear very much that all too many people think that just becasue they see an error, makes them an expert on accuracy
Oleg's team is pretty good, perhaps no better or no worse than any potential modders. However, the end goal of modding aircraft is to create and add new aircraft which Oleg has stopped doing for this sim (I'd rather Oleg do all the aircraft). I'd like to see Spanish Civil War and early 1941~esque Eastern Front more developed through modding, since Oleg abandoned these starting with the Microsoft~esque 1944 AEP.

[tater]

One thing about modding or adding aircraft. People always focus on flyables, but I'm personally interested in AI as well. The AI is already far enough off of players in terms of performance and the way it flies that any failures in a decently researched FM for a plane (as AI) will be smaller than the failures do to the dumb AI, IMO.

[MOH_Hirth]

I am a Il-2 user, AAA start to finnish auor desire for fixes, planes, sounds and all good ideia, you test wath mod is really good, compare sounds files, change only for the best, this done a lot of old dreams come true, and open the freedom of creation, 6000 brains now, they prove your quality with really fantastic work!
A lot of mod have the higth quality level and this excuse of "No time" is not true in 1 hour you can check and test the 20 best.

IL-2 user

PS: I and all i know will buy SOW, dont fear IL-2 MODs.

[LEXX]

Tater:: The AI is already far enough off of players in terms of performance and the way it flies that any failures in a decently researched FM for a plane (as AI) will be smaller than the failures do to the dumb AI, IMO.

Taterman, you are exposing the Pink Elephant of combat flight sim flight modelling. No matter how "realistic(tm)" the so-called flight model, the whole thing is a fake since the AI either always have a simplified FM or just cannot use to advantage the more advanced FM the player uses. In either case, the entire air warfare simulation falls apart no matter how "realistic(tm)" the flight model.

That's why I say design a sim around air warfare simulation and not Player flight model simulation.

Granted, this is not an issue for simple Online Dogfight Competition Shooter simulation where there are no AI aircraft since all aircraft are flown by human beings or combat flight simmers, but its an issue for Online Wars where AI fill out the ranks of absent players. And of course its an issue for Offline play which always assumes an AI presence.

[LEXX]

Its the pilot, not the flight model. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif


...actually, its both -- even the best pilots always hoped to get better aircraft. I think Chuck Yeager said the original quote just to "balance" everybody focusing only on the "popular" subject of aircraft performance.

[Zinger]

Another one who think CRT=2 do protect against FM/DM/Armament changes...
You're wrong... it's just a little bit more complicated...

The problem isn't the mods, or the "AAA philosophy" or anything like this... it's the availability of the hack tools. Either you're pro- or anti- modder you have to get the fact that IL2 has now no protection against cheat.... and that it's not going to change.

So I repeat, there's only 2 options: either continue flying online and accept to play sometimes with some cheaters.... or wait for SoW:BoB.

And if you are caught .. at least on the servers I fly .. they will ban you.
Care to let us know what name you fly under ? I'll ask those servers to ban you ..... just in case, because you know how to get around the CRT check. ;)

nothing is perfect .. but there were people cheating long before the mods were started.

The losers will always cheat .. mods or not.
If you fear them so much that you don't fly on the servers .. you let them win.
I'll bet that within 1 week of SoW coming out, there will be some form of cheat uncovered .. either something like the "print key', or some other form ... does that mean you will abandon flying SoW ? After only 1 week ?

[csThor]

To return to the thread's initial question ...

It is irrelevant whether you are enthusiastic about the stuff they do at AAA or not (I'm not) it should be blatantly obvious that any kind of "official sanctioning" is completely out of question.

Place yourself in Oleg's shoes - You and your company created a commercially successful piece of software (any kind of software and not just games) and then some goons hack the file protection. Someone else is using the tools these goons made for unsanctioned modifications. Wouldn't you get a fit of laughter when they ask for official sanctioning "'cause we can do what you couldn't"? Folks get real - please! :roll:
It's one thing that neither Maddox Games nor 1C or Ubi have taken steps to "deal with the issue" but assuming some kind of silent support is stretching the boundaries of the term "wishful thinking". Speaking purely hypothetically - Who would Maddox Games cooperate with? There is no "central authority" who controls what is going on mod-wise and according to what I read at AAA (yes I do lurk there) they do not have the slightest inclination to get some order into the stuff made (for the IMO unconvincing reason of "diversity") and produce "sensible packages". The only time when a developer/publisher ever really cooperated with a group of modders was when the BDG fiddled with Rowan's BoB. And that was because development was limited to a small group consisting of humble folks who knew their stuff.

[Baron]

To return to the thread's initial question ...

It is irrelevant whether you are enthusiastic about the stuff they do at AAA or not (I'm not) it should be blatantly obvious that any kind of "official sanctioning" is completely out of question.


What i was trying to say, but i would replace "Completly out of the question" with "just wouldnt work" since the code is out there for everyone to see.


Just to be clear, i wasnt trying/are intrested in starting the same flame war whe allredy had, no need to go down that promodder/antimodder debate again. Wasnt trying to take a stab at the Spit Mk1 mod one way or the other, was just using it as an example to show, regarding the orginal poster, that mods will pop up weather they would be approved or not since the code is now every mans "propperty"


After lurkin over at AAA from time to time looking at the development im actually starting to think that the IL2 community proppably could (wild guess) police itselfe if some kind of system would be implemented, and make a fairly good job of it. Better than any other gaming community out there i dare say, but in the end that doesnt matter since A: Oleg havent/wont (?) approve of it and B: there are those nagging 2% (maby even 10%) who just dont give a rats ass about any rules or regulations when they dont have to.

[csThor]

No, I mean "completely out of question". It is a question of legal issues, which are not pursued for reasons we can only speculate over, and not of practicality and ressource issues Maddox Games may have. The fundamental fact that the file protection was hacked still remains and that makes all "mods" follow-up products of an illegal act. To approve of these mods would mean to condone hacking and I'm sure everyone understands that no company would sanction that.

And regarding "self-policing" at AAA ... The fact that there seems to be a list of "do not link to" websites is speaking volumes about how much the admins there really have to say about what happens regarding modding Il-2 - nothing at all.

[Baron]

No, I mean "completely out of question". It is a question of legal issues, which are not pursued for reasons we can only speculate over, and not of practicality and ressource issues Maddox Games may have. The fundamental fact that the file protection was hacked still remains and that makes all "mods" follow-up products of an illegal act. To approve of these mods would mean to condone hacking and I'm sure everyone understands that no company would sanction that.

And regarding "self-policing" at AAA ... The fact that there seems to be a list of "do not link to" websites is speaking volumes about how much the admins there really have to say about what happens regarding modding Il-2 - nothing at all.



Totaly agree on the legal issue and how beeing able to mod came about (by theft more or less) (And to anyonelse btw: NO, we do not need to go down that road of "but what is theft REALLY, when u think about it, bla, bla, bla and bla again..and so on, and so forth.)

As for "wont work" and "self policing", that was more a "what if" kind of thing (a big what if)..like for ex, IF there where some kind of system implemented, wich there, like u said, isnt at the moment..and proppably wont be in the future either.


Anyways, officially approved mods wont happen/work even if Oleg says ok...since the code is out there to be abused by anyone...and sooner or later will be, if u dont count what happened up until now that is, wich in in self is kind of a clue as to how the idea of a officially approved modding system would work if implemented.

The official modders where never a problem in the past, the rouge hacker was however and will allways be no matter how many times one say "official"

[Zinger]

And regarding "self-policing" at AAA ... The fact that there seems to be a list of "do not link to" websites is speaking volumes about how much the admins there really have to say about what happens regarding modding Il-2 - nothing at all.


So does that mean it is perfectly fine to link to those web sites here ?

[csThor]

No, it's not.

[Zinger]

No, it's not.


Why not ?

Would it be because this site is policing what links are allowed here, and trying to keep unwanted links off the site ?

[tater]

While I think that the notion of "illegality" is dubious (it would require some case law examples to prove), this is Oleg's forum.

It's enough HERE, that Oleg/1C not WISH it to be here. This is in effect his house, and if they ask not to link, don't link. Respect that, it's only polite to do so.

I'm in the "pro modding" camp, BTW, so you know where I come from.

[JG53Frankyboy]

Why not ?


read here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2384

[Zinger]

And regarding "self-policing" at AAA ... The fact that there seems to be a list of "do not link to" websites is speaking volumes about how much the admins there really have to say about what happens regarding modding Il-2 - nothing at all.

Relax, kids ... I was simply taking exception to our friend csThor's summation that AAA have nothing to do w/ what gets modded ... I agree with him, but that is not the point of the OP, nor is it a good arguement. What I do understand is that AAA DOES have a say in what IT provides - I take that as a strength, and a sign it does care about what is modded and why. It once again speaks to the OP suggestion of sanctioned mods .. complete w/ incorporation into the game.

NOW, do I think it will happen ... nope. Is it a good idea ? I think so. If the modded material was incorporated into patch 4.09, or 4.1 .... does it remain a mod ?
Don't you think all the anti-modders wouldn't want to fly some of these awesome maps ? or even some of the flyables ... I'm betting they would.
just like many of the anti-modders lurk at the AAA site, and download the new mods to "test" them ... yeah, right ... I'll bet they don't remove them after testing though. ;)

[tater]

heheh :)

[Rama]

I'll bet they don't remove them after testing though.

An easy way to gain money... how much do you bet?

[Chivas]

I agree Rama...I want some of that money...I removed the sound mod after I found it buggy and subpar.

[Zinger]

Who said anything about money ?

Hmmmm ... let me think.

I would bet a kick ass Slot map ......

but since neither of us can prove a damn thing ... let's just call it a hunch. ;)

[tater]

Sounds, sounds are involved?

tater

[WilliVonBill]

I'd bet my graphics tablet that there are a pile of other sites which "correct" FM/DM. :rolleyes:

Might want to be careful Thor... that's a good way to lose a perfectly good graphics tablet! ;)


I may not agree with your postion, but I respect your passion for your viewpoint. But even you have to admit you got a wee bit carried away with that statement. If there are "corrected FM/DMs" out there, I certainly haven't been able to find 'em.

[tater]

Nope. Maybe for those capable of looking closer to 1C's home, perhaps. I can't read the russian sites, myself.

I've seen none. Zero. (and I've looked).

[csThor]

That's what I meant., tater. There is a wall between "us" and "the russian community" and that wall is called language barrier.
I remember Oleg making fun of the way people talk to him in different boards - russian players accuse him of overmodelling german aircraft and being "unpatriotic", german players accuse him of overmodelling the russian crates, british players accuse him of ignoring the british effort and finally US players keep saying that he hates their aircraft and the US in general. If you take that mindset into consideration (and it's enough if a handful of people share that) and remember that the hacking tools are available it would be grossly negligent not to expect that people are going to fiddle with the FM to "correct" things they see as wrong ...