Is anyone level bombing in the HE-111?

[jimbop]

Is anyone successfully level bombing in the HE-111? I am having what I think is a peculiar problem although please correct me if this is a feature rather than a bug.

When I select a single bomb in the salvo I actually have two drop from the aircraft: once when the automated sight reaches the horizontal bar (at 270 degrees) and another at the bottom. I initially thought the sight was just way out of altitude alignment since I only noticed the second impact. Got puzzled about the missing bomb, though!

Is this normal behaviour?

Anyway, the first is pretty much on target but the second release is miles off. See the below vid for my final run. I have 8 x 250 lb loaded and did not correct for altitude (i.e. how far above sea level the target position was). This would easily account for the relatively small miss on the first release:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoVuEMyAZXc (Use desktop browser to see the annotations and 1080 to see the dials if you feel like the wait.)

Thanks to Blackdog_kt's post in this thread (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23546) for getting me this far and note that there are threads addressing HE-111 bugs here (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?1059-Level-bombing-with-the-HE-111) at ATAG and here (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23048&page=2) at 1C.

[justme262]

I've never noticed this but I've only used the He111 in salvo mode, dropping a series of 50kg across an airfield. It seemed to work fine in salvo mode.

[jimbop]

I've never noticed this but I've only used the He111 in salvo mode, dropping a series of 50kg across an airfield. It seemed to work fine in salvo mode.

Thanks. Are you accurate?

I have confirmed that this occurs with other loadouts now. Your programmed salvo will drop once on target and again when the automated sight reaches the bottom. Obviously no effect if you drop everything at once.

[Jaws2002]

ATAG_Keller usually takes out the entire target with one single drop with the He-111. http://www.freesangha.com/forums/Smileys/default/smiley_bow.gifhttp://www.freesangha.com/forums/Smileys/default/smiley_bow.gif He may figure out the problem. He knows that kite.:mrgreen:
I only tried level bombing few times and my bombs dropped when the sight reached the vertical not at the angle it had to. So I gave up for now.

Keller is at the center of the Blitzkrieg in ATAG server.http://www.freesangha.com/forums/Smileys/default/smiley_bow.gif :mrgreen: Last night we rolled two maps in two hours.:mrgreen:

Good times.:mrgreen:

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

Blue is realy starting to get some great bomber sorties on the ATAG server, once we can go in formation its going to be a blast! ;)

[jimbop]

Thanks Jaws, I'm discussing with Keller on ATAG here (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?1059-Level-bombing-with-the-HE-111) and he is getting the same behaviour. Chalk up another bug methinks.

This thing is lethal when used right! And poor reds are stuck with only the Blenheim...

[justme262]

I never noticed this was happening.
I usually hit the target using the salvo mode but I aim before the target so the spread will cover any error I introduced with my entries in the bomb sight.

I would love to fly a bomber mission with a formation of real virtual pilots!
I like the HE 111 casue you can look at the bomb sight as you are programming it. For some reason the Ju88 bombardier view is restricted and you can't look at down at the bomb sight which is quite annoying.

I've never tried real pinpoint accuracy but I have no trouble dropping a salvo of 250kg bombs across a radar antennae from 3000m and destroying it... unless I forget to arm the bombs.

[jimbop]

Ha, my usual trick is forgetting to open the bomb bay doors! Do you use the indicated airspeed for sight velocity or convert to TAS?

[justme262]

I use both the IAS and the altimeter on the bomb site and add maybe 20 or 30 km/h depending on altitude. The higher my altitude and airspeed the more I add. Then I test the cross air on a land mark and fine tune the airspeed and altitude setting till the cross air tracks a land mark reasonable well. I don't even try to get it perfect.

I use salvo mode and increase the series number to be all the bombs and add a series delay . I assume the series delay is the distance between successive bombs hitting the ground in meters. As opposed to the distance of the whole series combined . But I could be wrong.

[Jaws2002]

I never noticed this was happening.
I would love to fly a bomber mission with a formation of real virtual pilots!


Right now is not advised to fly multi bomber formation because of the online memory leak.
If you fly close to multi engine planes for some time the game will crash. We keep some good distance between planes, or take different routes to the target and try to get there at about the same time. This way we can finish a target fast and get the heck out of there before the blood thirsty spits and hurricanes show up.:-o

This cat and mouse game is quite addictive.:mrgreen:

[KG26_Alpha]

Is anyone successfully level bombing in the HE-111? I am having what I think is a peculiar problem although please correct me if this is a feature rather than a bug.

When I select a single bomb in the salvo I actually have two drop from the aircraft: once when the automated sight reaches the horizontal bar (at 270 degrees) and another at the bottom. I initially thought the sight was just way out of altitude alignment since I only noticed the second impact. Got puzzled about the missing bomb, though!

Is this normal behaviour?

Anyway, the first is pretty much on target but the second release is miles off. See the below vid for my final run. I have 8 x 250 lb loaded and did not correct for altitude (i.e. how far above sea level the target position was). This would easily account for the relatively small miss on the first release:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoVuEMyAZXc (Use desktop browser to see the annotations and 1080 to see the dials if you feel like the wait.)

Thanks to Blackdog_kt's post in this thread (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23546) for getting me this far and note that there are threads addressing HE-111 bugs here (http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?1059-Level-bombing-with-the-HE-111) at ATAG and here (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23048&page=2) at 1C.




The "bombsite automation" if left on will do what your experiencing.










.

[jimbop]

The bombsite automation if left on will clear the bomb racks at the bottom of the sight.

Yes but is that a bug or as it was IRL? If not a bug then we really need some indication of when the bombsight have left the bay so it can be turned off safely.

I use the same technique as you regarding speed and altitude, justme262, and consistently hit short. Very annoying! Delay is distance between each bomb AFAIK.

[Heinz Laube]

delay is impact distance between 2 bombs on the ground in meters, right...

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

delay is impact distance between 2 bombs on the ground in meters, right...

Thats how it works in the 88(series-delay), it should be the same.

[Blackdog_kt]

I've been browsing the linked thread on ATAG as well.

General observations and notes:

1) I tried the 111P some time ago, when Bliss wanted volunteers to test the mission on ATAG #2 before he moved it to ATAG #1. It seemed like all of its compasses are bugged/reversed: the magnetic on the right cockpit wall was acting all weird but the tooltips were giving a proper reading, the repeater was not aligned with the magnetic and everything was backwards.

Now it was late and i was a bit sleepy, but i think i wasn't imagining things. Can anyone confirm this? Maybe it's just me and i have a corrupt file or something, in which case i will do a file validation through Steam.

2) Last time i tried it, the bombsight tracks correctly for the correct TAS and altitude, but it's true that it drops a bit short. I don't know the effect of the workarounds you guys use because i haven't tried them.

As mentioned in the ATAG forum's thread that's linked in the OP, keep in mind that altitude and speed are interconnected in regards to the effects they have on a bomb drop: you can fool the bombsight into a correct drop by using incorrect values if you have the right combination and that's probably what Keller is doing.

In that sense, it might be better to use actual values for altitude and tweaked values for TAS, because the speed scale is bigger: to bomb from higher altitudes you'll run out of available altitude settings on the bombsight, so it's probably better to tweak the speed.

If what jimbop says in the ATAG thread is true (that they have mixed up imperial and metric units in the sights), then maybe the solution is much simpler: just convert kmh to mph and use that value.
One question on this though: do you use mph IAS or mph TAS?

I would test everything right now but i have an exam tomorrow morning. If you guys can help out so we can come up with a complete checklist, we won't only be able to bomb accurately but also pinpoint what the bug is.

Thanks for the help thus far and keep up the good work ;)

P.S. For some reason i find the course AP harder to work with than in the 110. Maybe it's because the 111 is slower to respond to control inputs. Can you guys confirm that a 5-7 degree offset between directional gyro and selected heading is needed to keep it level when engaging the AP?

Another Edit: There's are carat-shaped markers on the bombsight reticule that tell you when the drop occurs. These are blurry on my screen because my low RAM doesn't let me load the full size textures (even when set on medium), but still visible. These were present in IL2 as well and worked the same.

I think i remember how it works, feel free to test and confirm if it holds true in CoD.

So, open jimbop's video here, pause immediately and go to a high enough resolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=G5lZO3vszC0#t=18s

The double triangle marker (one solid yellow and the other just outlined) you see next to the outer curved scale is moved around by changing the bombsight angle. Essentially it's the distance to target,calculated correctly when the correct altitude is set. Essentially the sight does trigonometry for you, it knows the angle at which it is pointing and your distance above ground, so it calculates the horizontal distance.

There should be another single, solid triangle marker visible at the bottom of the scale marking how far away from the target you need to release to get a hit. This is also calculated based on your altitude and speed.

When your distance from the target matches the required distance to release, the bombsight drops. You'll see now that when engaging automation, the double triangle marker starts to move down the scale, showing how the distance to target decreases (assuming the sight is well calibrated and tracks correctly). When it coincides with the single triangle marker, that's when your bombs release.

You can also use this knowledge to do partial drops. If you manually track a target by moving the bombsight angle down as you get nearer to it, the double marker will also move down. When it coincides with the single marker you can drop a couple of eggs, then do the same for another target further on down. Not very useful for carpet bombing and certainly not until we iron out the kinks in how to work the bombsights accurately, but if we get there you could for example drop a pair of 250s on one hangar and another pair on another hangar at the other end of the field.

Hope it helps ;)

I don't know how much of this is accurate for CoD, but that's pretty much how it used to work.

[jimbop]

Thanks for the info, Blackdog_kt. I'll have a closer look at the sight triangles later. For the 'fix' mentioned on ATAG I use IAS rather than TAS. I hope they fix the release timing in the next patch but I don't even know if they are aware of it.

[nadasero]

I've been browsing the linked thread on ATAG as well.

General observations and notes:

1) I tried the 111P some time ago, when Bliss wanted volunteers to test the mission on ATAG #2 before he moved it to ATAG #1. It seemed like all of its compasses are bugged/reversed: the magnetic on the right cockpit wall was acting all weird but the tooltips were giving a proper reading, the repeater was not aligned with the magnetic and everything was backwards.

Now it was late and i was a bit sleepy, but i think i wasn't imagining things. Can anyone confirm this? Maybe it's just me and i have a corrupt file or something, in which case i will do a file validation through Steam.

2) Last time i tried it, the bombsight tracks correctly for the correct TAS and altitude, but it's true that it drops a bit short. I don't know the effect of the workarounds you guys use because i haven't tried them.

...



Hi,

1)
the compasses on the 111P are bugged like you said. The magnetic on the right isn't working at all, the repeater is turning into the wrong direction. The tooltips are correct.

2)
again, the like you said. Everything seems to work, but the drops are short.

I have produced kind of an tutorial-video (in german) how the autopilot and the bombsight this is working.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero1?feature=mhee#p/u/3/YjKzsuDPuoM

The video is in 1080 so the sight can be seen in HD. I think the marker for the drop-distance is not working correctly. It is not possible to see when the bombs are droped. According to my tests it is when the two triangles are at about 270 degrees (depending on altutude and speed).

The AP is allways a few degrees to the left. If you engage AP centered, it starts to turn left and oszilates for quite a while.

For the drop, I'm using the second stage of the AP. This stage is controling all three axis and keeps the artificial horizon centered. You get a very stable flight, but the plane drops until an IAS of approx. 300km/h is reached. At this speed, the plane keeps altitude and direction very stable and makes targeting easy. It is possible to control elevation with the engines.

In the video, you can also see the folowing problems:
In the bombsight-position, it is hard to read the dials for drop delay. They can only be seen in wide angle. Only 7 lights on the dial for the number of bombs to drop are switched on. There is no indicator and no switch for arming the bombs, so you need a key and listen to the klick-sound to make sure they are armed (this much better solved in the 110).

The 111 is still the best for level bombing because the AP in the Ju88 is not working at all.

[jimbop]

Nice tip nadasero, thanks. I'll give the other mode a go since I usually drop at around 290 IAS anyway. Regarding compass problems I have only paid attention to the tooltip and not always even that since I know the maps well enough to align the target by dead reckoning. I then activate AP with DG (whatever it happens to read I know that it is straight ahead) + 9 degrees. This usually sets me up well enough for the final approach and I can tinker left or right as required.

[Blackdog_kt]

So, mode 1 is for navigating (only turns by ailerons), while mode 2 is for the bomb run (keeps wings level, turns by rudder)?

(I posted the same question in the other thread about the 88 too by the way, then i came here to draw your attention to it and saw nadasero has posted here as well :grin: )

I assume that mode 2 autopilot still needs a working gyro compass to set your headings, right?

So, i think we have a rough guide to go by at this point.

Let me also cover a small procedure that's called "getting on the step". As many of you might have noticed, certain aircraft seem to cruise better and faster after a bit of descend and they keep that extra speed without losing altitude.

Let's say we want to cruise at 4000m. It might be faster to climb to 4500m and then descend back down to 4000m and trim level, than just staying at 4km and waiting for speed to increase.

Flying FSX add-ons on a friend's PC i discovered that this is actually a real world procedure that was advised and used in various large aircraft (like the Stratocruiser and the B-17).

So, if we use this for our He-111 too, we'd get something like this:

1) Use the He111H if the reversed compasses on the instrument panel confuse you (like they confuse me :-P )

2) Climb to altitude + 500m (500 might be too much, we'll have to test this out).

3)Descend back to your chosen cruise altitude and trim level.

4)Calibrate your gyrocompass

5) Set desired heading at gyro heading + 9

6) Engage AP mode 2

7) Steer the aircraft left/right via the autopilot to align the target.

8 ) Convert IAS from km/h to mph and enter that value in the bombsight. Enter altitude above ground in the bombsight.

9) Place crosshairs on target and engage bombsight automation.

10) Open bomb bays, arm bombs and wait.

Does this look correct? I'll have to test this out soon :grin:

[jimbop]

Blackdog, that is the 'correct' way to do it and I can confirm that AP 2 does work very well. Extremely stable after the initial descent to ~300 KPH so thanks for that, nadasero.

Your step 10 needs a modification: ensure the crosshairs stay on the target by manual adjustment with the Sight Up control. The MPH velocity setting, whilst correct for the RELEASE timing is incorrect for the SIGHT timing. Annoying, to say the least.

[nadasero]

Blackdog

That is more or less how it is done.

Unfortunately, I don't have any histrocal data about the autopilots in those maschines. I just did some testflights and found this to be the best way to do it. It is strange, that the developers are spending lots of time, to build those functions in to the simulation and then there is not a single word in the manuals about how they work and even that they exist. How are we supposed to find out?

The speed in your Point 8 it not that important. The speed is entered for an first estimation. The exact speed is measured with the croshair. The speed and the movement to the side has to be corrected until the croshair remains on a position. This eliminates the influence of the wind. Now, the bomb sight knows the exact speed over Ground and the course it is moving. The course can be changed with the AP and the bombing is done with the automatic.

If everything is done correctly and the drops are still short, it is a misinterpretation of the speed in the simulation. (The ground crew has to recalibrate the equipment).

It may be that it is on purpose. If a series of 8 Bombs is selected, it might be a good idea to drop the first bombs early in order to hit the taget with the Bombs in the middle. In this case, a single bomb would drop later than the first of a series.

Actually the german Lotfe is kind of a copy of the Norden device used in US Bombers. I have done a lot of flights on the B17 with the Mighty 8th on the Amiga (a millenium ago). So the Lotfe was pretty familliar to me. At that time, they had about 500 pages of manual just for the B17 in a game that was much simpler than anything we have today.

[Blackdog_kt]

Thanks for the reply Nadasero. I also spent a lot of time with B-17 II:The mighty 8th back in the day and i remember the automated bombsight as well :grin:

You are correct about speed, it's just an initial estimation and then you fine tune by watching how it tracks the target.

What i'm not sure about is the speed conversions, as the bomb sight tracks a bit fast:

Blackdog, that is the 'correct' way to do it and I can confirm that AP 2 does work very well. Extremely stable after the initial descent to ~300 KPH so thanks for that, nadasero.

Your step 10 needs a modification: ensure the crosshairs stay on the target by manual adjustment with the Sight Up control. The MPH velocity setting, whilst correct for the RELEASE timing is incorrect for the SIGHT timing. Annoying, to say the least.

So, we need to use TAS in mph, the release distance is calculated correctly for a given aiming point, but the aiming point itself is changing due to wrong crosshairs tracking and needs correcting through the run. Is that what you are saying?

I'm trying to avoid ambiguities here, so we can come up with something more or less standard that works, until the kinks are patched out.

I tried it in one of the free flight missions yesterday and it is true that mode 2 works very well. There are still some oscillations in altitude, especially when making bigger turns with the rudder in mode 2 you lose some, but i have found a workaround for this too: i switch between AP modes.

First of all i trim out to fly more or less steady (the 111 has aileron trim too in addition to rudder and elevator trim and i think the 88 does too, can't wait to fly it once its gyro is patched to work), so that i can calibrate my gyros and prepare the autopilot.

Then i engage mode 1 AP during the climb out. Mode 1 only controls the ailerons, so you are free to trim nose up or down manually and get your desired climb rate. Nearing my chosen altitude i start to trim for a lower rate of climb to gain airspeed while leveling off. The 111 is a bit tricky here, because speed changes take time and just when you think you are level, speed increases and gives you more climb rate. Nothing that can't be gotten used too though.

Nearing the target i climb a bit higher than my chosen altitude, so that i have a bit of "room" for the slight descend when mode 2 will be engaged. I have found out that it takes a descend of less than 200m on average to go from 250km/h (a usual climb speed) to 300km/h (the speed you need to keep level with mode 2 engaged). So if i want to bomb from 4000m, i will fly on mode 1 until i reach 4200m and then engage mode 2.

Like i said, turning wings level with the rudder is inefficient because of sideslip and you will lose some altitude while lining up the target. Just press your "previous AP mode" key to go to mode 1 when you are satisfied with your course, it will start climbing but it's good to keep the climb rate low to conserve airspeed: the lower the "gap" between your climb speed and 300km/h, the less time and altitude it takes to transiiton to level flight once you engage mode 2.

By repeating this correction process a couple of times during the run-in to the target, you can arrive at the target vicinity (within 10-15km) and be within 200m of your chosen altitude. At that point you switch to mode 2 exclusively and work the bombsight.

Useful notes: Even when zoomed in on the sight, you can press your "look at dashboard" key to get a glimpse of the bombardier's instruments (works in the Blenheim too). So, you can be looking through the sight, keep the button pressed to see your airpeed and altitude gauges, release the button to go back to the crosshairs and correct your bombsight alt and speed as needed.

Also, i think i have found out how to give gunner control back to the AI. I was in the middle of being chased by a 109 when flying a Blenheim on ATAG, i switched to the turret and then i remembered this deactivates the gunners. So, before i switched back to the pilot seat i had an idea, i pressed the keys that give control to the AI pilots (i think ctrl-C is the default). Going back to pilot seat and then back to the turret, i could see that the turret was pointing in a different direction, which means the AI gunner was tracking the 109 and was working.

Pressing ctrl-C again before going to the pilot's seat i brought up the net stats: it said that i was pilot and bombardier on that Blenheim, but not gunner.

So, i think it works like this:
If flying a plane with dual controls (Tiger Moth and Br.20), pressing ctrl-C while in the cockpit gives the controls to the AI co-pilot. If you are in a gunner seat, pressing ctrl-C before switching to another position gives the AI control of your currently occupied gunner position. So, just press it before changing spot to re-enable your AI gunners.

I haven't tested this in the German bombers but it should be easy to: just checking the net stats shows the positions that the player is in control of.


So, that's all i have to share so far.





I also have a couple of things to ask :-P


Engines and power: At least in the He-111H model, it seems that the engines are a bit "weak" and it's not really the engines, but the prop modeling. Even at full pitch and full throttle it's impossible to exceed their limits on level flight. This is evident during the take off run, when RPM spools up so slowly that it's impossible to achieve the rated power values.

Also, does the sim model the propellers as constant speed units or are they variable pitch (like the 109) but with the pitch control on a slider (unlike the 109)?

I will have to experiment more with this. Maybe lowering pitch after the climb out or when at higher altitudes will give me more speed and consecutively a better climb, while also increasing manifold pressure due to the coarsening effect.

The reason this is important? When the memory leak gets fixed we'll be flying in formation. In order for wingmen to catch up and have a bit of power reserve to adjust their position, the leader flies at cruise settings. If the leader flies on full out power, the wingmen have no extra power to use for staying in position.

However, using full power seems necessary to get the required 300km/h for using mode 2 AP and even then some altitude loss occurs over time even when not turning at all (with time compression on, it looked like i was losing 100-200m every 5-10 minutes or so when flying on mode 2 AP, without turning at all).

If we fine-tune our engine handling to be able to keep 300km/h or slightly more with a bit of power reserve, then wingmen will be able to formate properly while the leader will also be able to stay level with mode 2 AP engaged.

Finally, i know the rads need the engine to be working before they can be opened (same as in the Stuka). The oil rad position is visible from the in-cockpit sliders and levers. Is there any instrument that indicates the position of the water rads (for example, like the colored bars on the wings of 109s and 110s)?

Sideslip: How do you account for it in the bombsight?
In the Blenheim, you just read the sideslip from the turn and bank indicator and use that one (adding the bombsight parameter in the direction of the actual slip).

In the He111 with its more accurate and magnified sight however, i have seen that even when the ball is centered there is a bit of drift. This could be simply because of wind.

So, how do i calibrate it? Do i input bombsight sideslip to the direction of the actual one or opposite as seen on instruments? If instruments (ball) are centered and i only see the sideslip from the bombsight, do i add sideslip in the direction the crosshairs is drifting towards in relation to the aim point or the opposite?

For example, if my crosshairs moves left of the target point, do i add sideslip left or right? I guess that after adding the correct sideslip value i will probably have to realign the crosshairs with the target.


I think we're really getting close to completely nailing it down guys, good work. This way we can not only fly, but also spot the bugs and issues. We started off with how to get the Blenheim off the ground safely, then how to bomb in it (it's less accurate but simpler to manage) and now we are almost done with the more complex bombers.

Let's keep it up and by the time the patch comes, we'll probably know enough to start flying any type of bomber in the sim in formations. This will give the sim some more variety in gameplay when flying online. I still can't wait for the Ju88 gyro fix, that one is awesome (although it struggles to get above 3-4km with a full load). :grin:

[jimbop]

So, we need to use TAS in mph, the release distance is calculated correctly for a given aiming point, but the aiming point itself is changing due to wrong crosshairs tracking and needs correcting through the run. Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's correct. I don't want to get hung up on the KPH-MPH conversion aspect either. It just seems to work but it could be for other reasons.

Useful notes: Even when zoomed in on the sight, you can press your "look at dashboard" key to get a glimpse of the bombardier's instruments (works in the Blenheim too). So, you can be looking through the sight, keep the button pressed to see your airpeed and altitude gauges, release the button to go back to the crosshairs and correct your bombsight alt and speed as needed.


Fantastic! I didn't realise this and it is a huge help. Regarding the rest, I'm not sure about how to correct for drift. Obviously you can adjust the sight left and right but knowing how much to adjust is beyond me at the moment. Possibly we need weather tools before we can do this? In the Blenheim you get a tooltip readout for the side slip but I don't think you get this is the HE-111.

[Sutts]

Nice research going on here guys, well done and thanks.

I'm not sure about the German aircraft but I'm pretty sure the alignment on the bomb run in British aircraft was always achieved by a conversation between bomb aimer and pilot.....left left, left left, steady....bombs gone etc.

Would be great to see that modelled in the sim....

You align roughly with the target then move to the bomb aimers position.

The AI takes over the controls and continues to fly straight and level on your current heading.

You setup the bomb sight then use simple "left" and "right" keys to give instructions to the AI pilot which you actually hear being spoken. i.e. left, left instruction would be 2 presses of the "left" key.

The AI pilot makes slight course adjustments in response to your commands while remaining straight and level thus allowing you to concentrate on targetting and not having to worry about trimming etc.

How does that sound?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Nice idea Sutts, after all the pilot flew and bombardier just bombed. There could be a small margin of error or deviation in AI flying like IRL but at least you could try do your job as bombardier as well as possible. These planes did not hit the marker or even close like today's guided munitions :)

[nadasero]

Hi,

I made a number of tutorial videos, showing how to fly german and italian twin engine planes. Until now, they are all in geman but I'm thinking about doing new an better ones (probably also in english) when the next patch brings significant changes and improvements.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero1?feature=mhee

Here are some things, I found out so far.

I also have a couple of things to ask

Engines and power: At least in the He-111H model, it seems that the engines are a bit "weak" and it's not really the engines, but the prop modeling. Even at full pitch and full throttle it's impossible to exceed their limits on level flight. This is evident during the take off run, when RPM spools up so slowly that it's impossible to achieve the rated power values.

Also, does the sim model the propellers as constant speed units or are they variable pitch (like the 109) but with the pitch control on a slider (unlike the 109)?


I think, the He-111 H/P is the most difficult plane to start. Gaining speed takes lots of time and runway. I learned a lot about the landscape behind the runway until I found a save way to take of.

The revs in the simulation are never reaching the levels and values as described in the He111-manuals.

I couldn't find any indicator for the radiators. You can see them in the outside view but this is obviously not an option.

Sideslip: How do you account for it in the bombsight?
In the Blenheim, you just read the sideslip from the turn and bank indicator and use that one (adding the bombsight parameter in the direction of the actual slip).


With simple bombsights, you are always looking to the spot where the bombs are going to hit if you release them. The Lotfe (and the Norden) are looking forward and the fact, that the croshair it not moving shows, that all values are correct and the release will be perfect (if the altitude is correct and device works as it has to).

If the Croshair moves down, the tracking is to fast and you lower the speed-value (Ctrl 1).

If the croshair moves to the right, the plane shifts to the right (wind or flight-parameters can be the reason for this). The bombs will drop right of the flight direction. In this case you correct the lotfe to the right (Ctrl 6). The device is now looking a little bit to the right. You have to repeat this until the croshair stops moving. Now you see where the bombs will hit, which is usually not your intended target but there should be time to change course until the target is in the center again. Because of this, it is important to have an indicator showing at what angle the bombs will drop so you can decide if it is still OK or if you need another run.

In old movies, you can see how the norden is used in the B17. There is for example "The war lover" (1962) with steve McQueen showing him as the pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F_lWYEvOPk

At 1:58 the pilot says "it's all yours". Now the plane is controled from the bombsight until the bombs are dropped. The Norden indicates when it's time to drop with a light, but the actual command is done with a button.

[Sutts]

Hi,

I made a number of tutorial videos, showing how to fly german and italian twin engine planes. Until now, they are all in geman but I'm thinking about doing new an better ones (probably also in english) when the next patch brings significant changes and improvements.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero1?feature=mhee

Here are some things, I found out so far.



I think, the He-111 H/P is the most difficult plane to start. Gaining speed takes lots of time and runway. I learned a lot about the landscape behind the runway until I found a save way to take of.

The revs in the simulation are never reaching the levels and values as described in the He111-manuals.

I couldn't find any indicator for the radiators. You can see them in the outside view but this is obviously not an option.



With simple bombsights, you are always looking to the spot where the bombs are going to hit if you release them. The Lotfe (and the Norden) are looking forward and the fact, that the croshair it not moving shows, that all values are correct and the release will be perfect (if the altitude is correct and device works as it has to).

If the Croshair moves down, the tracking is to fast and you lower the speed-value (Ctrl 2).

If the croshair moves to the right, the plane shifts to the right (wind or flight-parameters can be the reason for this). The bombs will drop right of the flight direction. In this case you correct the lotfe to the right (Ctrl 6). The device is now looking a little bit to the right. You have to repeat this until the croshair stops moving. Now you see where the bombs will hit, which is usually not your intended target but there should be time to change course until the target is in the center again. Because of this, it is important to have an indicator showing at what angle the bombs will drop so you can decide if it is still OK or if you need another run.

In old movies, you can see how the norden is used in the B17. There is for example "The war lover" (1962) with steve McQueen showing him as the pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F_lWYEvOPk

At 1:58 the pilot says "it's all yours". Now the plane is controled from the bombsight until the bombs are dropped. The Norden indicates when it's time to drop with a light, but the actual command is done with a button.


I'm in agreement that the Norden was linked to the autopilot and actually flew the aircraft on the bomb run. However, the Brits had much less complex devices and spoken instructions were required for course adjustments.

I believe I've seen footage of german bomb aimers waving course corrections to their pilot but I can't be sure. Perhaps someone can clarify?

[nadasero]

I'm in agreement that the Norden was linked to the autopilot and actually flew the aircraft on the bomb run. However, the Brits had much less complex devices and spoken instructions were required for course adjustments.

I believe I've seen footage of german bomb aimers waving course corrections to their pilot but I can't be sure. Perhaps someone can clarify?

I'm sure you are right about the Brits and it is the same with the Italians (BR.20).

Here are some additional things from a german manual for the He111 H-16:

There are two L-R switches to control the autopilot. On is on the right end of the stick (we have this without funktion in the game). It should be just like in the Ju88. The other is left to the bomb-sight and control can be given to the "Bombenschütze". It looks just like the on on the panel left of the pilot.

The autopilot works a little bit different to what we have today. Here is a translation of the steps:

1. Press left button below the gyro (Kurskreisel).
2. Main autopilot switch to 1 (stage 1 of the AP)
3. Wait 3 minutes (or 10 if it is cold)
meanwhile
a) Use L-R switch to set the upper course on gyro to actual cours
b) Use right button below gyro to sync lower course on gyro to the upper
4. Main autopilot switch to stage 2 (this is our stage 1)
keep at least 300m safety margin above ground
5. Pull out right button below gyro
Autopilot is now working

....

Changing Course
1. Use L-R switch on stick or at bombsight to change upper course on gyro
2. Use airleron to keep slip indicator centered

....

bomb run
1. Switch to L-R switch at bombsight
2. The switch on the stick is now out of control (this is our AP stage 2)
switch back imideately after the bombrun
3. There is an idicator-light showing that control is at the bombsight
4. there might be a device called "Y-Anlage". Bombruns with this radio direction control device are not using the bomb sight
5. Landing with autopilot "ist VERBOTEN" 8-)

So to sum this up:
The two course displays on the gyro are handled vice versa. The upper shows the course we whant to go, the lower shows the course we are going to and is corrected by the right button below (which makes much more sense)

The pilots L-R switch is not on the stick (but the position of all kind of instruments and switches is changed a lot from version to version).

I didn't find any information about a stage 2 controling all three axes. We have this two stages, but with fewer switches and we don't need to wait 3 minutes until the gyro is warmed up and on speed.

In total, we are very close to historical correctness and I think they should fix the more important bugs like the Ju88-gyro first.

For the planes without AP, I would recommend an Autopilot which holds course, speed and altitude as soon as we switch the bombsight. With the L-R button-commands we can change the course in small steps. A "Left" or "Right" call is played to make this as realistic as we can get with one player.

[Blackdog_kt]

For the planes without AP, I would recommend an Autopilot which holds course, speed and altitude as soon as we switch the bombsight. With the L-R button-commands we can change the course in small steps. A "Left" or "Right" call is played to make this as realistic as we can get with one player.

Exactly. This would simulate the player-controlled bombardier giving course correction instruction to the AI-controlled pilot while we are in the bomb run, then we could switch back to pilot.

Pretty good research here and thanks for the explanation about side slip. ;)

[JG52Uther]

Really must find the time to learn the LW bombers properly, the He111 was just about my favourite aircraft in '46.

[Blackdog_kt]

It's not too hard, just spawn in a free flight mission and follow the guides here.

After a couple of offline trial runs you can also go online on ATAG and ask specific questions on their teamspeak. There is a cadre of more or less bomber-specialized pilots there across various timezones and they are all willing to help: Jimbop and Dutch are usually handling the Blenheim, Keller is instructing people on the 111.

I'm also joining them every now and then, but i usually join late and my mic remains unused (don't want to wake up everyone in the house at 5am, shouting "bombs away!" hahahaha :-P), but i listen in on TS and will reply on the in-game team chat.

Generally speaking, after some collective effort there's enough knowledge to use bombers and enough people willing to "teach" it to others. It won't be an exaggeration to say that when the next patch comes, at least online play will be significantly transformed. Bomber pilots are already winning maps with bugged bombsights and despite the memory leak bug. This last one prevents people from flying in groups or with escorts and forces bombers to go in alone, in staggered runs with an advancing fighter sweep or low on the deck. And still, maps are consistently won and some people can close a target in a single run.

Imagine what happens when we can fly in groups, with escorts and debugged bombsights ;)

[ATAG_Doc]

There is a growing nucleolus of bomber pilots that's growing larger by the day in ATAG and on both sides. A lot more blue than red for obvious reasons though. This is why we desperately need a flyable Wellington. It just has to be done.

[csThor]

The russian community is making a "People's Flight Manual". Wouldn't it be time to create a similar manual specifically for the more complex aircraft (i.e. He 111 Manual, Ju 88 Manual etc)? Just a question ...

[jimbop]

The russian community is making a "People's Flight Manual". Wouldn't it be time to create a similar manual specifically for the more complex aircraft (i.e. He 111 Manual, Ju 88 Manual etc)? Just a question ...

Hardly any point until the patch is out. At the moment it would just be filled with ways to work around the bugs. The bombsights in particular need work.

[jimbop]

There is a growing nucleolus of bomber pilots that's growing larger by the day in ATAG and on both sides. A lot more blue than red for obvious reasons though. This is why we desperately need a flyable Wellington. It just has to be done.

Definitely. Ridiculous at the moment - the Blenheim is great fun but it just isn't a serious proposition in comparison with the HE-111 and 88. Just look at the way it is used on ATAG: almost exclusively used to divebomb just because level bombing is not a reliable way to hit the target.

We need a red bomber with a proper bombsight...

[robtek]

I believe we are spoiled by the accuratesse of bomb drops in 1946!!

What we are experiencing here at the moment reflects reality much better.

Bombing under combat conditions then was a arcane science, depending on luck besides the technic.

[jimbop]

Robtek, you're probably right. However, I doubt that LW bombardiers had to convert to MPH and then manually keep the sight on the target so I don't think a fix for the release calibration would spoil us too much, would it?

Also, I have no problem with the Blenheim being relatively inaccurate compared with bombers with automated sights. I would not, for instance, like the horizontal stabilizer added to the Blenheim. But I would really like to fly a red bomber that had a chance of hitting a target from 10,000 feet.

[He111]

I believe we are spoiled by the accuratesse of bomb drops in 1946!!

What we are experiencing here at the moment reflects reality much better.

Bombing under combat conditions then was a arcane science, depending on luck besides the technic.

Agree.

You could try lower level bombing to gain accuracy, England early in the war had little AA so this shouldn't be any riskier?

One day, i'm going to have to live up to my name .. :-P

.

[jimbop]

Sorry, I just have to nip this in the bud to avoid the devs thinking there is no problem.

If you level bomb in the HE-111 the historically correct way (e.g. gunsight fixed on target, correct altitude above target entered and TAS entered as sight velocity) YOU WILL MISS. You will hit short every single time. To hit the target you have to misuse the sight.

I would not mind seeing some randomness thrown in to better resemble wartime conditions but this should be a +/- effect, not simply minus and by exactly the same margin each time.

[Blackdog_kt]

Robtek, you're probably right. However, I doubt that LW bombardiers had to convert to MPH and then manually keep the sight on the target so I don't think a fix for the release calibration would spoil us too much, would it?

Also, I have no problem with the Blenheim being relatively inaccurate compared with bombers with automated sights. I would not, for instance, like the horizontal stabilizer added to the Blenheim. But I would really like to fly a red bomber that had a chance of hitting a target from 10,000 feet.

Well, i don't want to bring you down mate but i think all the main RAF bombers, at least until quite late in the war, used devices similar to the one fitted to the Blenheim.

Meaning, the only thing that will probably change if we get a Wellington is the available payload and maybe a more stable (and more sluggish) platform :D

[Heinz Laube]

i fly the H111 and Ju88 most time in the game, mainly on ATAG server... u dont need calculate so much IAS <-> TAS...TAS<-> MPH... the target cross do not shows the impact point of the first bomb, it shows the impact of nearly the last bomb of a intervall drop, imo
i drop 8 *250kg Intervall of 8 , distance 40m......
since i use it in that way, correct height and IAS, i have a high hit qoute in the H111,
seems to be reserved, like a few things in the game :) maybe it would be explain, why the bombs explodes backwards, aswell...

but i still prefer the mighty Ju88 and dive bomb, h111 i use for afk flights :p

[ATAG_Keller]

i fly the H111 and Ju88 most time in the game, mainly on ATAG server... u dont need calculate so much IAS <-> TAS...TAS<-> MPH... the target cross do not shows the impact point of the first bomb, it shows the impact of nearly the last bomb of a intervall drop, imo
i drop 8 *250kg Intervall of 8 , distance 40m......
since i use it in that way, correct height and IAS, i have a high hit qoute in the H111,
seems to be reserved, like a few things in the game :) maybe it would be explain, why the bombs explodes backwards, aswell...

but i still prefer the mighty Ju88 and dive bomb, h111 i use for afk flights :p

What altitude are you dropping from? At 1000m I can see this working, but at 3000m I don't think it would.

[Heinz Laube]

What altitude are you dropping from? At 1000m I can see this working, but at 3000m I don't think it would.

just tested it from 2500m... 320 IAS, same result... 8 *250kg ..40m distance...

correct trim. target cross not moves, last bomb hit the cross and bombs explodes backwards

edit: same result from 4000m

[Kodoss]

Last one hits on target and bombs explodes are backwards....
Hmm, sounds for me like a +/- error in the bombing routine.

[jimbop]

Well, i don't want to bring you down mate but i think all the main RAF bombers, at least until quite late in the war, used devices similar to the one fitted to the Blenheim.

Meaning, the only thing that will probably change if we get a Wellington is the available payload and maybe a more stable (and more sluggish) platform :D

That's a shame. Mind you, we're getting some good results in the Blenheim now, albeit mostly with dive attacks.

[Heinz Laube]

i think it all happend, coz the missing part on the lotfe in game is to correct the "trail angle" (bomb trajectory) in german "Rücktriftwinkel"
that a important input for the Lotfe, a

example: the german L.Dv.8/1 says: The SC 250 will be hit the targetarea 292m too short, if u drop from 4000m and 300kmh IAS... without calculate the angle.. would be make a sense in the game...

correct way in the game....Height in Meters, IAS to TAS , then move the target cross around 250m behind the target, to compensate the missing angle...

[nadasero]

Hi,

This is a link into the book online:
Der-Bombenwurf-Teil-1-Grundbegriffe-des-Bombenwurfs (http://www.scribd.com/doc/53196066/1941-L-Dv-8-1-Der-Bombenwurf-Teil-1-Grundbegriffe-des-Bombenwurfs)

On Page 17 is a drawing, introducing the parameter "Rücktriftwinkel". This is the additional displacement to the back caused by air resistance. On the bomb sight of the He-111 is a dial for the Rückdriftwinkel but it is not functional in the simulation. On page 21 is a table and a graph to get the Rückdriftwinkel depending on altitude and speed. The values are different for horizontal or vertical mount of the bombs (see page 19).

It looks to me as if the Rückdriftwinkel is not simulated. To get this fixed would need one additional parameter simulated on the dial and in the lotfe plus a graph or table with the values available at the bomb sight.

[WTE_Galway]

Hi,

In old movies, you can see how the norden is used in the B17. There is for example "The war lover" (1962) with steve McQueen showing him as the pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F_lWYEvOPk

At 1:58 the pilot says "it's all yours". Now the plane is controled from the bombsight until the bombs are dropped. The Norden indicates when it's time to drop with a light, but the actual command is done with a button.



For what its worth, here is a few pages from the Norden technical manual. Note that the Norden automatically calculates TAS for you as well as flying the plane.


http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/1.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/2.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/3.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/4.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/5.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/6.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/7.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/8.jpg
http://www.doug-and-dusty.id.au/Norden/9.jpg

[Heinz Laube]

yeah, same in Lotfe 7A-D , Input IAS and Height in Meters, Lotfe calculate the TAS himself...