First fight in a 109

[jimbop]

Goes without saying that I lost... I downed a couple of blennies which were returning over the channel and then tangled with a hurri. My impressions as a previously-full-time red pilot?

- Excellent power
- Excellent stability at speed (and what speed)
- Awesome guns (just tore both Blenheims to pieces and set one on fire)
- Rubbish turning

The turning, or rather the lack of turning, will take some getting used to. What are your strategies, blue pilots? Seems that dragging the willing ones down to reduce their energy and then extending away to build superior E would be a good way to go. What if they don't descend?

[JG52Uther]

I love the 109. Boom and zoom is the best tactic, but its very easy to get dragged into low down turn fights with the reds, then you are in trouble.
Watch how Mr X flies the 109 here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29297

[JG5_emil]

The 109 is all about energy fighting, maintaining it and only attack when you have a superior energy advantage.

Be very careful when fighting the rotol hurri, it's deadly, the poor old spit 1a is much slower and easier to kill. Fingers crossed for some attention to the FM. If it's a Spit II and you've got any kind of advantage it's pretty much one or two attacks and run.

[jimbop]

Yeah, I have shot down my fair share of yellow noses in the hurricane rotol. It is my first choice and I am always pleased when a 109 starts turning with me. 1a is just rubbish at the moment.

As I flew over the channel playing with the throttle and prop pitch to get the feel for the 109 I wondered how anyone managed to get shot down in it. Then I started turning with the hurricane and realised pretty quickly! Exactly what I do myself so I guess I had no excuse.

[Tvrdi]

Im not an expert but I noticed that I cant manually control flaps (slats?) in 109? Pls can someone explain why?

[JG5_emil]

Well the other way is getting to focused on your target and making too many energy bleeding manoeuvres in too shorter time. It's a fighter for the very patient pilot when flying solo and you need to know when to attack and when to disengage. It's very difficult to disengage when you know you've hit someone but if you can and take your time to regain the energy advantage you will get shot down very little.

It is also a superb fighter when flown in a team with others.

[JG5_emil]

Im not an expert but I noticed that I cant manually control flaps (slats?) in 109? Pls can someone explain why?

You definitely cannot control the leading edge slats manually, no idea if that was possible in RL...I kinda doubt it.

[Ataros]

You definitely cannot control the leading edge slats manually, no idea if that was possible in RL...I kinda doubt it.

They are automatic on most aircraft except for some STOL ones as far as I know. Airflow makes them extract at certain speed.

Flaps control in a 109 has 3 positions like IRL. Need to keep a key pressed in down position.

[JG52Uther]

I have my flaps mapped to a lever on my saitek quad, I only ever use flaps for landing though. Speed is life in a 109.

[Tvrdi]

I have my flaps mapped to a lever on my saitek quad, I only ever use flaps for landing though. Speed is life in a 109.

Sure, I doubt flaps were used in combat, in WW2. But were "exploited" in old IL2 for turnings hehe

[ATAG_Dutch]

- Awesome guns (just tore both Blenheims to pieces and set one on fire)

:eek: - Stifles sense of unbridled horror! :evil:;)

[JG52Krupi]

Sure, I doubt flaps were used in combat, in WW2. But were "exploited" in old IL2 for turnings hehe

The 109 had combat flaps unlike the hurri and spits, in il2 it the reds that exploit there use

[Richie]

Im not an expert but I noticed that I cant manually control flaps (slats?) in 109? Pls can someone explain why?



Leading edge slats explained at 8:50 :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eXXCCR2oj8&feature=relmfu

[JG52Uther]

I'm sure I saw a real WW2 vet say once that you could pull some pretty spectacular turns, and the slats scared the carp out of inexperienced pilots the first time they came out, as they made quite a bang!

[bongodriver]

I'm sure I saw a real WW2 vet say once that you could pull some pretty spectacular turns, and the slats scared the carp out of inexperienced pilots the first time they came out, as they made quite a bang!

automatic slats have a tendency to pop out suddenly under load, this happens in the Tiger Moth (must be locked closed for areobatics) I heard an annecdote of a Tiger moths slats popping out so hard they ripped out from their mountings, it seems believeable considering the Tigers slats were solid pieces of aluminium mounted to the spindly wooden constuction of the wings.

[Sven]

More information about the slats on the BF109:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#slats

[ATAG_Doc]

I would like to add this to the discussion on guns. Start at 5:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWoj0TWEQY

Doc

[MoGas]

Seems that dragging the willing ones down to reduce their energy and then extending away to build superior E would be a good way to go. What if they don't descend?

Like I did :) I guess it was you and me today isnt it? Well I would have follow you down to a certain point, but if my enemy turns his nose to Calais, then I am not following. But I couldnt keep up with you anyway, on youre dive and climb as I saw it at the first time, what your tactic would be, I stopped following.

You just didnt go low enough (on our start), for this to work you need to go down at 500m and keep playing the game (RED pilot believes to catching you still) until the Hurri or Spit is stuck behind, then you start the climb.

If he dosent descend, I would climb again in my own fields, and watch my enemy what he is doing. If he comes again I lower slightly my nose to speed up, and try again to drag him down. What I see online, after a little while, people loose the passion, and wanna take you NOW, and in such points mistakes gona happen. And you get youre E advantage again.

In such game, good SA is needed.

[Bewolf]

Yeah, I have shot down my fair share of yellow noses in the hurricane rotol. It is my first choice and I am always pleased when a 109 starts turning with me. 1a is just rubbish at the moment.

As I flew over the channel playing with the throttle and prop pitch to get the feel for the 109 I wondered how anyone managed to get shot down in it. Then I started turning with the hurricane and realised pretty quickly! Exactly what I do myself so I guess I had no excuse.

Two things if you get dragged into a turn fight with a red plane for whatever reason. Give it a bit of flaps and use the 109s superiour roll rate. Works better against Spits then Hurries, though.

[MoGas]

Two things if you get dragged into a turn fight with a red plane for whatever reason. Give it a bit of flaps and use the 109s superiour roll rate. Works better against Spits then Hurries, though.

And then?

[Bewolf]

And then?

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors. I usually combine this with a hard turn to obscure the cut. After about 100 degrees i give it full power again, turn hard into the other direction, applying a bit of rudder to make the troll faster and the scissors begins. The 109 has enough power to get into co energy state pretty fast again and the roll negates the Spits and Hurries superiour turn rate. From then on it's pilots ability, not so much plane characteristics anymore.

[swiss]

Sure, I doubt flaps were used in combat, in WW2. But were "exploited" in old IL2 for turnings hehe

put them on an axis or scroll wheel.

[MoGas]

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors. I usually combine this with a hard turn to obscure the cut. After about 100 degrees i give it full power again, turn hard into the other direction, applying a bit of rudder to make the troll faster and the scissors begins. The 109 has enough power to get into co energy state pretty fast again and the roll negates the Spits and Hurries superiour turn rate. From then on it's pilots ability, not so much plane characteristics anymore.

ok, and this works for you? I am asking because if I am behind a 109 and she is doing that, and loosing all his advantage the speed and energy, she is to 90% done you dont need to follow exact his scissor and rolls or whatever, and you always cross the line of fire. It depends, if my ammo is still on 100% when I start to fight in such scenario, because, 50% in a close fight with a 109 doing negative barrels and scissors like Hannes Arch from red bull, she gets little damage and she starts to get away with all kind of smoke if you have bad luck.

Someone said to me ones, SpitII is not good, it forgives you mistakes, because you can always run away, well, I see that everyday when on RED.

[Bewolf]

ok, and this works for you? I am asking because if I am behind a 109 and she is doing that, and loosing all his advantage the speed and energy, she is to 90% done you dont need to follow exact his scissor and rolls or whatever, and you always cross the line of fire. It depends, if my ammo is still on 100% when I start to fight in such scenario, because, 50% in a close fight with a 109 doing negative barrels and scissors like Hannes Arch from red bull, she gets little damage and she starts to get away with all kind of smoke if you have bad luck.

Someone said to me ones, SpitII is not good, it forgives you mistakes, because you can always run away, well, I see that everyday when on RED.

Yes, I'd say in 50 percent of all cases that works.

1. This only applies when for whatever reason, you find yourself with a spit on your tail and you already lost your energy advantage anyways.

2. Your description implies that when crossing the line of fire, you are still behind him in a way. That means cutting throttle and forcing an overshoot did not work. It works more often then you might think, though.

3. You also imply that the 109 rolls only on one plane, instead of also chaning altitude while scissoring, making him cross your line of fire a rather easy affair.

4. Spit pilots tend to be overcondident in slow turning fights and rarely display the descipline to pull away early enough when finding themselves in scissors. And the 109, with a better roll rate, simply works better in this kind of maneuvering. You change direction faster, that means you cut corners faster and eventually get the Spit in front of you.

All in all that does not fit to the tactics I am going after here.

[kestrel79]

Videos like that blow my mind. Cockpit is sooo small. Those guys had some balls. One of these times at EAA I'm going to have to try and sit in one of these things...

[Hellbender]

I flew the recent 3 weeks on BLUE side and I must say that I never got shoot down by a Hurricane or Spitfire since I always kept an eye on E-management and with the E-advantage, the 109 is unstoppable. Only super accurate Wellington or Blenheim AI gunners downed me or when I accidentally rammed them ( happens sometimes to me) and I had to bail out. However, in that time I rarely made voyages down below the cloud level.

Also, what I am missing is, that whiel FLying red and I fly 90% of times RED, there is mroe teamwork going on for the RAF. 109s can be quickly started and you are ready to go, but mostly one catches 109s lonely or sometimes in pairs somwhere over England which is nothing against 4-6 Reds flying together. Once one 109 was rushing into a formation of 9 Spits and Hurris just to find itself hit by 8 different planes :grin: .

Just yesterday I recorded the following footage of a 109 low dogfighting over Manston and then trying to run away:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrYrgs-Nnic

One think to be tired out is whether how effective the usage of the flaps in dogfights is. I heard soem peopel saying with that it is possible to stay in a turn with a Hurricane for a long time. Haven´t tried it yet.

[335th_GRAthos]

As the guy at Doc's video explains somewhere (or maybe it was another RAF pilot that made the comment at the full documentary) the Bf109 ruled the sky during the first year of the war.
The Bf109 could decide when to attack AND when to disengage.
Which is pretty much the case at ATAG...so like in real life (whether it hurts or not).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWoj0TWEQY


What if they don't descend?
The guy who run away always lived for a second fight ;)


~S~

[jimbop]

:eek: - Stifles sense of unbridled horror! :evil:;)

That's right and I felt guilty! At least they were on their way home after having made their drop, though. Nothing worse than getting all the way over and picking up a 109 on the final run.

[jimbop]

Thanks for the tips all, the looking forward to the next outing.

Like I did :) I guess it was you and me today isnt it? Well I would have follow you down to a certain point, but if my enemy turns his nose to Calais, then I am not following. But I couldnt keep up with you anyway, on youre dive and climb as I saw it at the first time, what your tactic would be, I stopped following.

You just didnt go low enough (on our start), for this to work you need to go down at 500m and keep playing the game (RED pilot believes to catching you still) until the Hurri or Spit is stuck behind, then you start the climb.

If he dosent descend, I would climb again in my own fields, and watch my enemy what he is doing. If he comes again I lower slightly my nose to speed up, and try again to drag him down. What I see online, after a little while, people loose the passion, and wanna take you NOW, and in such points mistakes gona happen. And you get youre E advantage again.

In such game, good SA is needed.

Yes, I thought it was you, MoGas. I managed to crash land and planned on writing something in chat from the menu but had an instant CTD when I hit escape.

One thing I found amusing on TS was the complaints about how tough the red AA was. You could exchange 'red' for 'blue' and have exactly the same discussion on the other side! Sounds pretty balanced to me.

[JG5_emil]

Yes, I'd say in 50 percent of all cases that works.

1. This only applies when for whatever reason, you find yourself with a spit on your tail and you already lost your energy advantage anyways.

2. Your description implies that when crossing the line of fire, you are still behind him in a way. That means cutting throttle and forcing an overshoot did not work. It works more often then you might think, though.

3. You also imply that the 109 rolls only on one plane, instead of also chaning altitude while scissoring, making him cross your line of fire a rather easy affair.

4. Spit pilots tend to be overcondident in slow turning fights and rarely display the descipline to pull away early enough when finding themselves in scissors. And the 109, with a better roll rate, simply works better in this kind of maneuvering. You change direction faster, that means you cut corners faster and eventually get the Spit in front of you.

All in all that does not fit to the tactics I am going after here.

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

[Bewolf]

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

I think you guys really need to train some reading skills. I mentioned this several times now, this "only" applies if you, for whatever reason, already are in a sticky situation. Now you can try to fly all Hartmann style all the time, but I doubt that will work out for a majority of flyers here and neither did it for the pilots back in those days. You better prepare yourself for those moments when the sh*t hits the fan and you have a red on your tail down low without speed.

Besides, there is a lot of good, old fashioned "fun" involved when successfully turning the tables in such a situation.

[jimbop]

I think you guys really need to train some reading skills. I mentioned this several times now, this "only" applies if you, for whatever reason, already are in a sticky situation. Now you can try to fly all Hartmann style all the time, but I doubt that will work out for a majority of flyers here and neither did it for the pilots back in those days. You better prepare yourself for those moments when the sh*t hits the fan and you have a red on your tail down low without speed.

Besides, there is a lot of good, old fashioned "fun" involved when successfully turning the tables in such a situation.

I tried this earlier today. A hurri had hit me and broken my radiator. The venting had stopped so I thought I may not have long before the engine died. We were on the deck, he was not far behind and at about co-E. I turned sharply and chopped throttle. He overshot and I hit him. I'd think twice if there was more than one around, though. You are stuffed if you miss.

[Bewolf]

I tried this earlier today. A hurri had hit me and broken my radiator. The venting had stopped so I thought I may not have long before the engine died. We were on the deck, he was not far behind and at about co-E. I turned sharply and chopped throttle. He overshot and I hit him. I'd think twice if there was more than one around, though. You are stuffed if you miss.

*nods* If there are more then one you have a big problem. It's a last ditch method but a fairly succesful one if you get the hang of it.

[robtek]

If you can't run away it's the only viable option, imho

[JG5_emil]

I think you guys really need to train some reading skills. I mentioned this several times now, this "only" applies if you, for whatever reason, already are in a sticky situation. Now you can try to fly all Hartmann style all the time, but I doubt that will work out for a majority of flyers here and neither did it for the pilots back in those days. You better prepare yourself for those moments when the sh*t hits the fan and you have a red on your tail down low without speed.

Besides, there is a lot of good, old fashioned "fun" involved when successfully turning the tables in such a situation.

99% of the time you've got in to that situation because you've made mistake.

make less mistakes and you'll find you spend less and less time performing crazy energy wasting manoeuvres on the deck in the vain hope that you get away.

If you haven't wasted all your altitude and speed and you get bounced you can then trade it in for speed and bug out to fly another day.

Glad you enjoy what you are doing, just saying that the best way to avoid such a situation is not to get into it in the first place.

[Bewolf]

99% of the time you've got in to that situation because you've made mistake.

make less mistakes and you'll find you spend less and less time performing crazy energy wasting manoeuvres on the deck in the vain hope that you get away.

If you haven't wasted all your altitude and speed and you get bounced you can then trade it in for speed and bug out to fly another day.

Glad you enjoy what you are doing, just saying that the best way to avoid such a situation is not to get into it in the first place.

lol

So there is that last target red side has to destoy and a low going Blenheim is about to hit it.

There is your wingman or a teammate from blue that got himself into trouble low on the deck.

Reds are strafing and attacking your airbase and you just took off.

Should I go on?

Feel free to lose the map or lose your friends by making "no mistakes"

You

[JG5_emil]

lol

So there is that last target red side has to destoy and a low going Blenheim is about to hit it.

There is your wingman or a teammate from blue that got himself into trouble low on the deck.

Reds are strafing and attacking your airbase and you just took off.

Should I go on?

Feel free to lose the map or lose your friends by making "no mistakes"

You

Just because your team mate is in trouble doesn't been you need to bleed off all your speed and altitude and end up turning in circles.

If you have situational awareness you will make sure you have enough altitude to turn in to energy to make your escape and/or try to stay at least 1k about the highest enemy in the fight.

Explain how getting shot down helps your team mate? In fact it may very well lead to more 109s having to lose their advantage and 'come down to help'.

Your tactics are fine for dogfight servers as no one cares about getting shot down. Would you do this on a coop where you've spent 45 minutes forming up and getting to the target? Doubt it.

[JG5_emil]

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors
You

Lets just go back to this little quote.

Why does the red pilot even need to try and follow you in these crazy manoeuvres?

If you cut throttle, he doesn't need to overshoot...he just uses the vertical and climbs above you...now you are dead.

Scissors...he just uses the vertical and B&Z you till you have no energy and are dead.

I'm sure you get some kills against solo noobs or people who don't care about dieing but they wont work against anyone who uses good tactics.

[Bewolf]

Just because your team mate is in trouble doesn't been you need to bleed off all your speed and altitude and end up turning in circles.

If you have situational awareness you will make sure you have enough altitude to turn in to energy to make your escape and/or try to stay at least 1k about the highest enemy in the fight.

Explain how getting shot down helps your team mate? In fact it may very well lead to more 109s having to lose their advantage and 'come down to help'.

Your tactics are fine for dogfight servers as no one cares about getting shot down. Would you do this on a coop where you've spent 45 minutes forming up and getting to the target? Doubt it.

First of all, if your only basis of comments here is to diss dogfighting servers, then you will miss a majority of flyers here.

Then, Not everybody is able or willing to return to base as soon as his cannon ammo is emtpy. Have fun boom and zooming with machine guns only.

And finally, I am pretty glad you are not my wingman with this kind of attitude.

[Bewolf]

Lets just go back to this little quote.

Why does the red pilot even need to try and follow you in these crazy manoeuvres?

If you cut throttle, he doesn't need to overshoot...he just uses the vertical and climbs above you...now you are dead.

Scissors...he just uses the vertical and B&Z you till you have no energy and are dead.

I'm sure you get some kills against solo noobs or people who don't care about dieing but they wont work against anyone who uses good tactics.

Look, we can base this debate on regular occurances on servers, or we can base it on principle and "what if" questions. In a perfect world every pilot acts rationally and acts exactly as you describe it, 109s stay high and dsciplined, Spits won't react to scissors and just use their turn ability to climb above and come back again. Every pilot is a pro acting exactly to textbook. Every Spit pilot knows his place and flies at lower altitude then you and your Radar eyes always spots the enemy long before he spots you so you can make sure you always are in the perfect B&Z situation.
If you live in this world, perfect, I just fear it only exists in your head.

[JG5_emil]

Would you like red sauce with that giant chip on your shoulders? If you just want fun T&B on the deck there is nothing wrong with that, each to his own, but it's not the best way to use the aircraft and it gives you a very low survivability rate. You can help someone who is low and in trouble without getting yourself in a mess as well.

I wouldn't fly wingman for someone who ended up on the deck every flight and forced me to get myself killed for their mistakes. We fly as a team and share our kills but try our best to survive the mission.

[Bewolf]

Would you like red sauce with that giant chip on your shoulders? If you just want fun T&B on the deck there is nothing wrong with that, each to his own, but it's not the best way to use the aircraft and it gives you a very low survivability rate. You can help someone who is low and in trouble without getting yourself in a mess as well.

I wouldn't fly wingman for someone who ended up on the deck every flight and forced me to get myself killed for their mistakes. We fly as a team and share our kills but try our best to survive the mission.

You see, my "chip on the shoulder" stems from the fact that you make me out to be some T&B dude just to prove your point, which I am most certainly not. I am actually agreeing to your stances on most accounts, but you simply don't appear to understand that there are those situations within constantly and dynamically shifting combat conditions were you are finding yourself in a problematic situation, no matter how much you stick "to the book". And in the course of that you are activly torpedoing any debate on how to successfully get out of these again. Ppl "do" make mistakes, including your wingmen. And just abandoning those just to save your skin and blame them for making mistakes is simply not a principle I go by.

[SlipBall]

I have my flaps mapped to a lever on my saitek quad, I only ever use flaps for landing though. Speed is life in a 109.


Same here, only I'm using CH controls:grin:

[JG5_emil]

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.

Explain where this original comment was wrong?

My main goal is to avoid a situation where I have given up every possible advantage and end up scrapping on the deck. I know a good enemy will punish any manoeuvres where I waste energy, therefore I will do anything possible to avoid being in the situation where I have to use scissors etc. In my opinion if I have to use such tactics then I have lost the fight even if I do not die. Of course no one is perfect and it does happen but if it happens to me then I know that I made a mistake much earlier on.

If you want to get shirty that's up to you ;) I'm just stating a fact gleaned from many years of successful IL2 combat flying. I think you will find JG5 was one of the most successful squads out there.

[Bewolf]

Explain where this original comment was wrong?

My main goal is to avoid a situation where I have given up every possible advantage and end up scrapping on the deck. I know a good enemy will punish any manoeuvres where I waste energy, therefore I will do anything possible to avoid being in the situation where I have to use scissors etc. In my opinion if I have to use such tactics then I have lost the fight even if I do not die. Of course no one is perfect and it does happen but if it happens to me then I know that I made a mistake much earlier on.

If you want to get shirty that's up to you ;) I'm just stating a fact gleaned from many years of successful IL2 combat flying. I think you will find JG5 was one of the most successful squads out there.

Your comment is not wrong per se. But we have to agree to disagree that there is this kind of 100 percent control of the battlefield. Especially if you fly with people outside your own squad and thus the lack of propper drill.

Besides, I think you are vastly underestimating the capabilities of the 109 in these kind of situations and that dismissing them outright on the basis of pure principle is like cutting off your left hand to prove that your right hand is better at bashing the opponent.

[Blackdog_kt]

In other words:

Emil: "This is how to optimally use the 109"

Bewolf: "I agree. Let's also see what happens in a situation that arises from non-optimal use"

No need to get in a fight guys ;)

This is the main distinction of combat styles, especially when flying aircraft that need some discipline, and it matches my personal experience.

I was never much of an onliner, but in the previous IL2 series i would take a 190A up in warclouds or spits vs 109s once in a while and that's exactly what i learned:

a) Flying carefully tends to not get you killed often, because you avoid sticky situations and

b) Avoiding sticky situations at all costs deprives you of the practice you need to turn the tables if you find yourself in one

Overall: You get killed less on the whole, but should you get in a tight spot you will most likely be shot down because you don't know how to act.

And since we have a venue with limited penalties for getting the required practice, i think it's a good idea every now and again to hop onto a DF server and "fly stupid" on purpose to get in a bad spot, only in order to practice how to get out of it ;)

I mean, there are cases where you have no choice at all than to get in a bad spot, depending on your priorities of course.

I was always the guy that flew carefully and BnZed with the 190 and that's what i try to do with the 109 now in CoD. Well, as soon as i would get co-E Spit IX or P-47/P-51 on my tail i didn't know what to do and you will get them from time to time no matter how careful you are, because you can't watch 100% of the sky 100% successfully 100% of the time. And then, i lacked the practice and all i could do was run and drag them for a wingman to come and scrape them off my tail (if they were Spits) or just defend one BnZ pass after another and pray i survive (if they were the faster USAF birds).

Things are a bit better with the 109 in CoD because it has a lot of acceleration over the RAF birds, especially if you know how to work the pitch, so i'm not having so much of a hard time.

Just today i hopped onto ATAG for a couple of sorties and i was patrolling over Ramsgate/Manston, waiting for some 110s to come and bomb a mission target. Most of the time i have a hard time picking up lower contacts, so i descended from 6 to 2km and i still couldn't see where the 110s who needed help were.

At some point a few 110s managed to disengage and run for home while a couple more were inbound. Right then i got a radar contact report about a lone Hurri, i managed to creep up behind him and kill him and then the real fun began.

I started criss-crossing over the two airfields to keep the defenders busy and drag them away from the 110s. Well, colour me massively surprised, because i survived a prolonged encounter with 4 enemy aircraft (i think mostly Spits, maybe a single Hurri too), that lasted 5-10 minutes for sure (i was watching my fuel gauge and it was quite depleted during the course of all this).

I was anywhere between the deck and 2km of altitude, extending in a dive to get separation, getting altitude in a very slight climb at 400km/h while dragging 3-4 bandits at a time, then turning around in a sequence of mild high and low yo-yos to conserve energy and trying to get a snapshot on one of them. Then i would keep at it with a couple of yo-yos or roll reversals to cut corners by pointing my lift vector inside their turn, sometimes even with a flat turn if was feeling lucky, but i would always disengage and extend if i couldn't bring the sights on him within a couple of turns.

Cross them almost head on, turn the other way, put the nose down, engage WEP, fake some turns (roll one way and turn the other, thanks to the negative G capability of the engine, then roll level and get out) and by that time i was well out of their convergence. They were spraying a bit but i didn't get hit too much in all of this and didn't get anything important damaged, plus i scored some hits on one of them i think.

The bottom line is that i acted stupid on purpose to effect a tactical advantage to my team, i got in a tight spot, but i also learned how to manage it and come out alive. I didn't score any kills in that encounter, although i could have: it was a choice between saddling up for a few seconds more to get a clean shot and getting hit in return by their wingmen, or simply making high deflection passes, keeping up my speed and keeping them busy.

In short, get in a tight spot by acting silly on purpose, but then try to fly smart and learn how to get out of it. It was good fun and taught me a lot about how to manage such encounters in the 109. I think that with sufficient discipline and the added endurance you get when flying on a free sweep (a full tank gets me about an hour of flying or more, especially if i loiter at 5-6km on 1Ata and 2200RPM while waiting for team mates to ask for help on TS), it's actually quite feasible to use it as a solo hunter.

[Bewolf]

Nothing to add there, Blackdog, nicely put =)

[Tiger27]

Even the best pilots made mistakes or had situations that meant they couldn't fly at their optimum, even if it was just an order from Goering to fly in close to the bombers :o, for this reason, although BnZ is the way to go in nearly all situations with a 109, it doesn't hurt to practise and prepare for those odd times when it all goes wrong, that is where the dogfight servers have a purpose, they are great for practising what to do when the sh1te hits the fan.

[Jaws2002]

If you want to take part in the actual mission, you'll have to fly a bit more dangerous to yourself and less than ideal from a fighter's tactical point of view, in order to achieve the broader strategic goals.
In the end, that's what's historical. In a real war, fighter pilots didn't fly how they liked, they flew how they were told. If they assigned your unit for close bomber escort, or protecting certain ground targets, that's what you did. If you didn't, you have a good chance to end up blindfolded with the back to a wall.

I have great respect and feel sorry for people that offer to escort my Ju-88 to the target. I know they'll most likely get shot by that swarm of Spits and Hurricanse protecting those dreaded Beaufighters on Ramsgate airfield. But if I get to blow up the target it's satisfying for all of us. Even if we all get killed.

There are many ways to get a kick out of a game. You can fly in straight lines and do only what's 100% safe, but after ten plus years of playing this series of games, to me that's boring as hell. You have to spice up your gaming experience.
Unless you try to turn from time to time with the other guys, you'll never know how good your plane turns.
I've seen this many times over the years. Many guys that fly only 100% safe, are straight up sitting ducks in a close dogfight. Usually those same guys complain a lot about their plane being "porked".
I'm a pretty bad "pilot" and can't shoot worth a damn, but even I had some success dogfighting in some of this "can't turn" fighters.
Both the FW-190 and P-47 could dogfight back in Il-2, and our Bf-109E definitely can.
It takes a bit of aggressiveness and a lot of practice, doing just that. You'll die a lot, but you'll know your plane a lot better than before. You can't expect to always be the fastest and the highest plane in the game, so you may as well train for those situations from time to time. So many times doing just that, #turning when nobody expects you to# you can surprise the other guy and get him on defensive before he even knows what happened.

There are many ways to enjoy this game. Sometimes you fly fast and safe and selfish. Sometimes you bomb targets, escort bombers and take part in the actual mission. Sometimes you just go fool around flaps down throttle to the wall on the deck with a 110.

In the end what I want to say is this. Don't try to tell others how to enjoy their game, or look down on them if they don't fly 100% safe from the fighter point of view.

[JG5_emil]

Think you guys are missing the point. The OP asked "The turning, or rather the lack of turning, will take some getting used to. What are your strategies, blue pilots? "

I'm just giving my strategies and mine are to do everything possible to maintain energy in the form of speed or altitude or both and to never (unless I have screwed up) to perform manoeuvres that scrub off my energy unless I am in a position to remain higher and or faster than my opponent. At no point am I saying this never happens to me because it does, usually because I get kill hungry or take silly risks and when it does happen I would much prefer to escape in order to fight another day. If I've ended up in a turn/scissor fight the odds are against the aircraft. A better pilot can win but then again if you are also up against a good pilot in an aircraft more suited to that kind of fight you are most likely going to lose.

Dogfight servers are good for practice and/or just having fun. I have nothing against them but I do prefer COOPs and team tactics over low altitude fights to the death. The LW knew their strengths and weaknesses and I doubt many real pilots would fly that way, many of the ones that did probably ended up at the bottom of the channel. The pilots that used the strengths of the aircraft surely survived much longer.

So in short I think getting in to a situation where you are low with co alt or have a worse energy state is a bad thing but if you enjoy doing it then that's up to you. Our emphasis in JG5 is to fly as a team using tactics that suit the aircraft and we don't like flying with people that are reckless chasing an enemy to the deck which then puts the entire rotte at risk. They deplete the numbers of effective aircraft we wield and in our experience then expect us to come down and bail them out of their predicament...that isn't working as a team. Most of this experience comes from flying IL2 as we're still awaiting CLOD to get fixed but our principles would remain the same, we respect the team player who doesn't feel the need to chase a damaged enemy aircraft to the deck for their own glory and who then puts the rest of us at risk.

[Jaws2002]

The LW knew their strengths and weaknesses and I doubt many real pilots would fly that way, many of the ones that did probably ended up at the bottom of the channel. The pilots that used the strengths of the aircraft surely survived much longer.



Nope. The majority of LW pilots did waht they were told to do. Did you forget the "fly close to the bombers" orders Goering gave them? It was bad for the fighters, but at the time that's what they were told and that's what they did.
Wars are not fought individually by the pilots. They fight as part of a machine that works towards a strategic goal. The life of one, or a few fighter pilots is not more important than the final strategic goal.
The idea of the whole fighter force of the luftwafe flying however and wherever they like is bloody stupid. Very, very few of them had the freedon to fly how they wanted. Those are the ones that got to the top, by fighing how they were told.
If your unit has to cover a ground offensive, you flew at the altitude they told you. Not everyone was flying at 6000meters and engaged only when it suited them. You could be assigned to fly between ground level and 2000meters. It was not up to you. The success of the ground offensive dictated the air tactics.


Look. Here's a very good documentary that explains very well how military organizations work during wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31AXA02CM0g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=War+-+Part+Three%3A+The+Profession+of+Arms&oq=War+-+Part+Three%3A+The+Profession+of+Arms&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=143066l143066l0l152255l1l1l0l0l0l0l198l198l 0.1l1l0)

You are basically a smal part of teh big picture.



I wish you all the fun and enjoy your flying. Just don't pretend this is absolutely the historical way to fly.
It's a game in the end, thanks God, and we all can get our fix however we like.:)

[JG5_emil]

You're putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.

Are you seriously going to tell me that the good pilots didn't know where their strengths lay and wouldn't want to try and use them in order to stay alive?

Yes there were given patrol altitude and tasked with escort duties as well as fighter sweeps and other missions. Sounds like you are the one who is forgetting that all of the fighter pilots hated being tasked with close escort? And why was that? because they knew they were being forced to fight in a situation where they couldn't use their strengths of speed and superior climb rate. There were slow and vulnerable. Once engaged do you think they didn't try to get the upper hand as soon as humanly possible? The 109 had several advantages over the Spit 1a and Hurricane and the pilots who survived would have tried to use them the best they could. I am yet to read about a 109 pilot who regularly flew round in circles 50ft of the deck at 250 kph and lived as you see in a dogfight server.

What I wrote was in response to the original posters request about tactics used by blue (CLOD pilots not real world pilots). Low and slow you are much more likely to die. Higher (than the enemy) and/or faster than your enemy you have more chance to win the fight and live. Higher doesn't mean 4000m higher, that would be ridiculous, I am speaking in terms of energy that can be converted in order to keep their advantage and ultimately win the fight or disengage at will and ultimately live to fight another day.

In short having a lower or equal energy state than your opponent is never a good thing and should be avoided.

[jimbop]

Thanks guys, the debate has been interesting to watch. I think I agree with both of you!

Maintaining high energy should be a top priority, especially in the 109, but it is useful to know escape methods just in case things go wrong. As they frequently do for me...

[justme262]

Interesting debate.
I think it's even sweeter to beat a red opponent on his turf. On the deck. It just rubs it in really doesn't it :)
I think if you flew perfect discipline in the bf109 red would almost never shoot you down. Now that's not very sporting is it?!
I can think of more than one occasion when an over confident red has over shot my 109 while I was break turning with combat flaps... I even put the gear down once cause I was sure I was gonna die! But I whooped for joy moments later when he over shot and I turn back onto him and lit him up with 20mm. I even remember that that guy was trash talk'n me in the chat window before all this happened. heheh
It was my finest hour.

Maybe I'm too impetuous for jg5_emil to fly with me but I'm haven fun.

[JG5_emil]

Fun is what it is all about and that's all that matters. Our fun is different to your fun that's all. We take great pleasure in flying as a team and working together to win. We don't go in for certain kinds of fighting because that's not what we're about. We exclusively flew coops in IL2 so discipline was very important, if you lose a couple of aircraft in the beginning of the engagement things tend to go rapidly down hill.

[jimbop]

Well since the OP I've become much more familiar with the 109. My conclusion is that if you are careful to fly the 109 the way it is meant to be used you are close to untouchable with the current models. Slow, gentle turns to avoid bleeding energy and extending away feature heavily. Want to turn and burn? Fly a G.50 or fly red. Just don't even bother turning with red - even a half decent pilot will have you.

I was in a furball with three reds earlier and by carefully timing my dives into the fray I was able to boom and zoom effectively over about 20 minutes. Good,solid hits on them but I'm still getting used to the 109 gunnery which seems to behave differently to the red. 303s in terms of velocity and therefore lead shooting. Or maybe I'm just rubbish! (Which leads me to another question: why is the Hurri so fragile when I am being shot at and so strong when I am shooting at it?)

The only danger is that the current top level speed of the Hurri and 109 seem quite close if the Hurri is well trimmed. If you find yourself co-E with one down low then you are in strife. He might not catch you but you might not get away fast enough.

Most red pilots who are engaged in a furball will turn back when you extend away, often sharply which further reduces their energy. That is the signal to climb again in a slow turn, rinse and repeat the dive. And that cannon!

I only got into trouble twice today: once when I sacrificed my advantage to draw a spit away from our bomber (I was neatly shot down) and once when I made a mistake with the prop pitch on extension (wrong direction ahem...) and a Hurri gained on me rapidly. I was already on the deck so I tried the solution described above and braked hard into a turn. The red pilot saw it but was too late to stop an overshoot so rammed me instead.

Great fun but I must admit to still being red unless the server is uneven! And I wish the 109 had rudder trim.

[Varrattu]

You definitely cannot control the leading edge slats manually, no idea if that was possible in RL...I kinda doubt it.

Please have a look:

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/control/slats/slats.htm

Happy landings

Varrattu

[von Brühl]

Isn't there another thread with a video of one of the RL pilots on this forum showing us his control of automatic leading edge slats? They can be controlled manually, there's just no need to.

[robtek]

The Bf109 slats can't be controlled manually, except on the ground by actually touching them.

[Varrattu]

The BF109E used a so called swing arm parallelogram mechanism to agitate the slats. The slats were driven out by means of low air-pressure if the AOA gets higher ( slow flight ) and retract by means of air-pressure when accelerating...

As far as I know, the current value for above mentioned AOA in iL2-CLOD is ~15°. That is nearly the angle when your BF109E stands on the ground.

Happy hunting

Varrattu