Navigation in Hurricane and Spitfire

[jimbop]

Is anyone successfully navigating from instruments in the Hurricane or (I assume) Spitfire? I know how to navigate and can set the directional gyro according to compass but when flying the gyro quickly goes so far off it is practically useless.

Is this just meant to be modelling precession? If so it is WAY too sensitive since just turning gently throws it out. Or am I doing something wrong?

[klem]

Is anyone successfully navigating from instruments in the Hurricane or (I assume) Spitfire? I know how to navigate and can set the directional gyro according to compass but when flying the gyro quickly goes so far off it is practically useless.

Is this just meant to be modelling precession? If so it is WAY too sensitive since just turning gently throws it out. Or am I doing something wrong?

I peer round the stick at the magnetic compass (using TrackIR) and we're mostly able to fly visually anway unless on the deck. To be honest I haven't had the patience to see if it can be managed with the, apparently, usual resetting every ten to fifteen minutes.

[SEE]

Same as Klem, I use the map and land marks. The compass and gyro are too cumbersome for me at the moment. I will use it when bad weather conditions are introduced, blanket cloud cover, etc.

[ATAG_knuckles]

I would love to be able to use the compass/gyro. Took some time to lean how to use the British Compass. My only problem is the stick/spade is always in the way of an accurate compass reading (I do use TrackIR) If I move the stick the plane banks and the compass starts spinning: So at this time I use landmarks.

However I have wound up lost a few times,

Denis/Knuckles

[ATAG_Snapper]

To paraphrase the American frontiersman, Daniel Boone: "I've never been lost on the ATAG server.......but I've been mighty confused for an hour or two....." LOL

[jimbop]

I will use it when bad weather conditions are introduced, blanket cloud cover, etc.

This is what I am wondering - is it possible at the moment? I find that the gyro slips too fast to be useful.

I enjoyed the old training challenges in 1946 where you (for instance) had to find an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean by navigation. I could not do that in the Hurri at the moment.

[IvanK]

Gyro precession on both the DG and AH are too quick in 1G flight imo. Though after violent manoeuvring they are probably true to form.

The DVD "Spitfire from the cockpit" shows similar AH precession/toppling to what we see in CLOD but only after vertical manoeuvring that exceeds the AH gymbal limits.

[jf1981]

Is anyone successfully navigating from instruments in the Hurricane[...] ?
Jimbop,

Yes this works fine. You have to adjust regularly, flying straight will not induce a decay but sharp turn will. Smooth turn won't (directional gyro however needs to be checked from time to time and readjusted. Turning around will shift it slowly, nuless you're really careful.

Same happens for artificial horizon, it works very well but only under smooth a/c control. Anything else will make it turn upsidedown or bank.

I would recommend to keep the director North pointing 0 and use this chart, you mirror flip the "T" position on magnetic compass, this gives you a real magetic headin at once, see attached example.

Hope I'm not too messy, let me know if you don't understand. Remember adding 10 degree, geographic N is magnetic 10°, for any geographic heading H you need to follow a magnetic path H+10°.

Attachment represent the bottom magnetic compass in its default position. This is N at top position.

[jimbop]

Thanks - I forgot about this thread, should have updated. Yes, it works fine as is although it's difficult to see the compass behind the control stick. I set the DG on the ground and then set again during the climb since it is usually thrown out a bit during takeoff.

[Blackdog_kt]

I end up using just the compass and course setter most of the time.

I just measure the angle on the map with the protractor, for example 125 degrees, then set the course setter to heading+10 so in this case 135 degrees.

By comparing landmarks i get into the general direction right after takeoff, then i just lean to the side with freetrack (can also be done with the mouse, hold the middle button down and drag the mouse left/right to lean) and look at the compass from zoomed out view. This way i can both keep the plane flying straight and look at the compass.

Since i have the on-screen systems messages enabled, i know what kind of heading i selected on the course setter. Then i just look to see if the 3 lines (the two "guides" and the actual T-shaped compass line) are parallel. Doesn't matter which angle you view it from, as long as the lines are parallel, you are flying the course chosen by the course setter.

I find it's much easier and faster than trying to hold the plane steady long enough to calibrate the gyro. I use this method on both Hurris and Blenheims. The Blen has a clear, unobstructed view of a secondary compass in the bombardier station, but i now find it easier to set a course with the course setter and follow it, than read the gyro.

[Sutts]

I end up using just the compass and course setter most of the time.

I just measure the angle on the map with the protractor, for example 125 degrees, then set the course setter to heading+10 so in this case 135 degrees.

By comparing landmarks i get into the general direction right after takeoff, then i just lean to the side with freetrack (can also be done with the mouse, hold the middle button down and drag the mouse left/right to lean) and look at the compass from zoomed out view. This way i can both keep the plane flying straight and look at the compass.

Since i have the on-screen systems messages enabled, i know what kind of heading i selected on the course setter. Then i just look to see if the 3 lines (the two "guides" and the actual T-shaped compass line) are parallel. Doesn't matter which angle you view it from, as long as the lines are parallel, you are flying the course chosen by the course setter.

I find it's much easier and faster than trying to hold the plane steady long enough to calibrate the gyro. I use this method on both Hurris and Blenheims. The Blen has a clear, unobstructed view of a secondary compass in the bombardier station, but i now find it easier to set a course with the course setter and follow it, than read the gyro.



Good info here guys thanks.:grin:

I love trying to navigate using landmarks and general headings. A real sense of achievment when you get back to the right airfield.

What I find difficult are the following issues. Would appreciate any comments / tips you might have:

1. The map doesn't seem to distinguish between roads and railways which is a bit of problem...they're all brown lines. Some of the best position fixing references are based on the relationship between roads and railways.

2. On my PC at least, rivers seem to expand massively when viewed from a distance making everything look like an estuary. Difficult to make out a proper coast line when every small river looks like a major outlet.

3. Real airfields have large code letters visible from the air. When you're lost that would be a great way to get reorientated. I guess we'll have to wait for the SDK before we can do anything about that one.

Cheers:grin:

[jimbop]

1. The map doesn't seem to distinguish between roads and railways which is a bit of problem...they're all brown lines. Some of the best position fixing references are based on the relationship between roads and railways.

Yes, annoying.

2. On my PC at least, rivers seem to expand massively when viewed from a distance making everything look like an estuary. Difficult to make out a proper coast line when every small river looks like a major outlet.

Same here, also annoying!

3. Real airfields have large code letters visible from the air. When you're lost that would be a great way to get reorientated. I guess we'll have to wait for the SDK before we can do anything about that one.

Historical? Not sure if this applied to military airfields during WW2.

[klem]

I find large woods or groups of woods are one of the best landmarks for identifying where I am if I get lost. It can be difficult over mid SE England where there are many smaller woods but then again, at altitude, a visual check on the direction of coastline features (a bit of mental triangulation) will give a good rough indication of where you are. From there you can zoom in on the map and start checking the wood shapes. Also, towns stand out reasonably well when you are close to them, that can also be fitted into the picture. Rivers are a bit odd. At distance they are almost useless but closer to and especially tracking at nought feet they can be very useful along with towns.

It will be interesting when someone starts running servers with Rhubarb weather, low cloud base, impenetrable rain. Going to need the compass then and low level features like the rivers, towns.... and prayer.

[Sutts]

I find large woods or groups of woods are one of the best landmarks for identifying where I am if I get lost. It can be difficult over mid SE England where there are many smaller woods but then again, at altitude, a visual check on the direction of coastline features (a bit of mental triangulation) will give a good rough indication of where you are. From there you can zoom in on the map and start checking the wood shapes. Also, towns stand out reasonably well when you are close to them, that can also be fitted into the picture. Rivers are a bit odd. At distance they are almost useless but closer to and especially tracking at nought feet they can be very useful along with towns.

It will be interesting when someone starts running servers with Rhubarb weather, low cloud base, impenetrable rain. Going to need the compass then and low level features like the rivers, towns.... and prayer.


Thanks guys, glad I'm not the only one having problems. I'm sure a lot of things will be fixed in subsequent patches making navigation a little easier. It's definitely an acquired skill - spotting patterns in woods, towns, roads etc.

In terms of the airfield identification letters, I'm quite sure all wartime bases in the UK had a signals square which was visible from the air. Here's an example of the one at Martlesham Heath - you can see the big MH letters just outside the border of the big concrete square. I've seen a number of signals squares on derelict wartime bases in my time.

Now....wouldn't that be handy when you're lost on a cross country flight?:grin: I know we'll get all these goodies eventually when the SDK becomes available.

[ATAG_knuckles]

Trust me gang: The first couple of month I got Sooo lost. Not so much now. Still the other day in a blenheim, circling several time to attempt to loose a 109 (which I did) however I go so mixed up I flew back into France: couldnt find a dang thing that looked familiar.

Dynamic weather please !!! that would be a hoot : you would have to use Compass/DG plus I really wouldn't mind a few clouds to hind in !!


Knuckles

[jf1981]

Dynamic weather please !!! that would be a hoot : you would have to use Compass/DG plus I really wouldn't mind a few clouds to hind in !!


Specially with a/c that can deal with it ! Not sure how Blenheim will, it got at least carb heator.