'Red Tails' New WW2 movie coming out ;)

[machoo]

The story of the Tuskegee Airmen, the first African-American pilots to fly in a combat squadron during World War II.


check out the trailer , sweeeeeeeet CGI air battles :)

P51's , B17's , Me262's , 109's all featured in the trailer , yew!

January 2012.

The only scary thing is George Lucas may be behind it. Uh oh......

http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi3239156761/

[Flanker35M]

S!

George Lucas went haywire long time ago as seen on his kiddytale Star Wars new episodes. After seeing the trailer of this WW2 film = not gonna touch it with a long pole. Same as would fire up Wings of Prey :rolleyes: Another Pearl Harbor style shoot'em up movie..Should have made a better tribute to the Tuskegee Airmen who served their country during those times.

[Tvrdi]

we had a post about this movie months ago...

[Feathered_IV]

I expect the movie will trivialise and cheapen the real life deeds of the Tuskegee airmen.

[bongodriver]

Just seeing the clip of the P-51 doing an Su27 style backflip is enough for me to leave well alone.

[Tvrdi]

Just seeing the clip of the P-51 doing an Su27 style backflip is enough for me to leave well alone.

yep, unfortunately you can find such bull **** in all aviation movies...But I dont mind because it couldnt be worse than Pearl Harbour....actually I think its a decent movie..

[335th_GRExandas]

Man!!!
What ever movie they can produce about WW2 allied pilots will not get the
feeling.

German Aces where fighting 4 straight years over all europe and africa continent THERE IS THE PILOTS REAL FEELING.

Especially the last desperate years when 100 GAF pilots where opposing
1000 well fed napped and fair treated American pilots in their shiny new P51s.

100 war dogs which usually bit the odds and returned back home with 2-3 kills
and obliged to take off back again in 10 mins the most.

Maaan that's is a feeling of a pilot.

[Tvrdi]

Man!!!
What ever movie they can produce about WW2 allied pilots will not get the
feeling.

German Aces where fighting 4 straight years over all europe and africa continent THERE IS THE PILOTS REAL FEELING.

Especially the last desperate years when 100 GAF pilots where opposing
1000 well fed napped and fair treated American pilots in their shiny new P51s.

100 war dogs which usually bit the odds and returned back home with 2-3 kills
and obliged to take off back again in 10 mins the most.

Maaan that's is a feeling of a pilot.

last two years americans were fighting more or less - youngsters from the LW...they were easy prey....+ as you said, the numbers were in favour of allies.....but the story of this movie is pretty much right on the spot since it was the known fact that the tuskegee airmen (who didnt got an approval for cover missions at first) were the most successful group in defending the bombers...

[trumps]

LOL, I thought this was another new starwars episode, they seem to have the same guy sorting out the physics of flight and Cgi for both. I would rather watch my old collection of black&white war movies and watch model planes sliding down a just visible wire guide than see more of this politically corrected
Cgi crap!
Hopefully Peter Jackson's new dam busters is better, at least he has a genuine interest in aviation!

Craig

[bongodriver]

Hopefully Peter Jackson's new dam busters is better, at least he has a genuine interest in aviation!


I'm starting to feel that nothing will come of Dambusters, he is too distracted by making TinTin and Hobbit movies.

[335th_GRExandas]

Heinz Knoke was dodging 5 P47 for about an hour (only to escape)
bit that fear.

Tuskegee airmen where very good only because they had racial issues.
They forced to prove things that days, just for the American society.

[machoo]

Just seeing the clip of the P-51 doing an Su27 style backflip is enough for me to leave well alone.



What this isnt realistic? The Ai do this kind of stuff all the time .....:)

[bongodriver]

What this isnt realistic? The Ai do this kind of stuff all the time .....:)

Ain't that the truth....my head is still spinning trying to keep up.

[Sternjaeger II]

Let's not forget this is a film about race pride set in a WW2 context, not an aviation film per se.. but anyway, I would give it a shot and see what it's like, although I find this race card thing a bit of a cliché at times if not played correctly.. we already have a movie about the Tuskegee Airmen, then there's the movie Miracle at St. Anna..

I wish Hollywood had some guts or there was someone crazy enough to invest in telling the stories of other pilots, like the long serving German aces or the Japanese ones.. something comparable to Das Boot in terms of epic story.

[bongodriver]

Problem there Stern is that the Americans for the most part have no interest in stories that aren't their own, hence why the film about the capture of the enigma was 'americanised', or the next Battle of Britain movie was set to feature 'Billy Fiske' saving europe, may as well suggest making a movie glorifying Osama Bin Laden....it will have as much of a chance, it's not like the Tuskeege airmen were the first black combat pilots, the comonwealth forces had them and many others from other ethnic groups.

[justme262]

The silly over done flight manoeuvres are just too annoying. Realistic tactics and flight physics would have made a great movie anyway...

I would like to see a film about Galland and JV44 rising in a hand full of me262 to meet massed allied bomber formations defended by hundreds of escort fighters. There is a tragic courage to these elite pilots defending their country, facing impossible odds while also flying the most advanced jets and with such high level of experience and skill.

"If measured by the accumulated victories of its pilots the Jagdverband 44 was the most elite fighter squadron in the history of military aviation" wikipedia

Also JG7
"On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s"wikipedia

That's just about he coolest thing that ever happened...

[bongodriver]

That's just about he coolest thing that ever happened...

Unless you are an American........

[335th_GRExandas]

Beyond the war propaganda American pilots had not much
to fight for over Europe!

That's why the American Aces were made over Pacific.

[bongodriver]

That's why the American Aces were made over Pacific.

Appart from the ones who became aces in europe.......

[ATAG_Snapper]

Beyond the war propaganda American pilots had not much
to fight for over Europe!

That's why the American Aces were made over Pacific.

Exasctly. By the time the Yanks got into the European Theatre of Operations in 1942 there were barely one or two Luftwaffe squadrons left flown by wet-behind-the-ears rookie pilots. Well, except maybe for New Years Day, 1945............

[speculum jockey]

Has Hollywood made a good/realistic WWII film? A lot of people say that Saving Private Ryan was perfect, but I found it to be Spielberg's typical "Heavy-Handed" tripe. The effects were amazing, and good choreography, but every 5 minutes I found myself pulled out of the experience by some manner of glaring error, or stupid thematic device (like having every German soldier a skinhead).

Yes Mr. Spielberg, we didn't forget that the Holocaust happened, but skinheads were an invention of the 70's/80's.

I'm really glad that they didn't make that Battle of Britain movie since this is 100% how it would have happened. . .

:cool:"Hey you useless Brits, I'm an American and I'm going to show you cowards how to really shoot down Nazi planes! Boooyah! That's my 50th kill this week! Oh, lost another lame Brit wingman. Good thing I brought my American Made P-51 D to this battle that takes place Summer-Fall 1940. Oh did I mention that I happen to also fire explosive rounds from this? It's a special top-secret round that improves movie cinematics. Oh no! We're up against an SS wing of ME-262's They specifically target Jewish pilots. . . I'm 1/2 Jewish! Better get in an 1 on 1 battle with the head SS pilot. At the end I'll appear to be just about to lose, and when he dives to deliver his death-blow on my damaged P-51 I'll do some manner of Physics-Defying maneuver that will result in him being destroyed and I delivering a really awesome "One Liner" before I fly back to marry that British Girl who can never go back to regular Brit men after being with a real man!"

Did I manage to get all the Hollywood WWII Cliches into it?

[JG52Krupi]

Exasctly. By the time the Yanks got into the European Theatre of Operations in 1942 there were barely one or two Luftwaffe squadrons left flown by wet-behind-the-ears rookie pilots. Well, except maybe for New Years Day, 1945............

Riiigggghhhhtttttt

Never heard that before, there were still a lot of aces pilots on the western front.

[speculum jockey]

Riiigggghhhhtttttt

Never heard that before, there were still a lot of aces pilots on the western front.

This is true, but the Luftwaffe was also an atrophied force by this time. Pilot turnover was atrocious, and the ratio of allied/axis fighters in the air was pretty one sided as well.

Then again, I don't know why people get into the "which nation's pilots are better" arguments.

[IamNotDavid]

I would like to see a film about Galland and JV44 rising in a hand full of me262 to meet massed allied bomber formations defended by hundreds of escort fighters. There is a tragic courage to these elite pilots defending their country, facing impossible odds while also flying the most advanced jets and with such high level of experience and skill.


Good luck trying to market a movie portraying Germans in WW2 as heroic underdogs!

[trumps]

Good one Speculum J,That was solid gold mate, spot on ;)
The closest I can come up with as a reasonable modern WWII hollywood
movie is probably Memphis bell!

Cheers
Craig

[6S.Manu]

:cool:"Hey you useless Brits, I'm an American and I'm going to show you cowards how to really shoot down Nazi planes! Boooyah! That's my 50th kill this week! Oh, lost another lame Brit wingman. Good thing I brought my American Made P-51 D to this battle that takes place Summer-Fall 1940. Oh did I mention that I happen to also fire explosive rounds from this? It's a special top-secret round that improves movie cinematics. Oh no! We're up against an SS wing of ME-262's They specifically target Jewish pilots. . . I'm 1/2 Jewish! Better get in an 1 on 1 battle with the head SS pilot. At the end I'll appear to be just about to lose, and when he dives to deliver his death-blow on my damaged P-51 I'll do some manner of Physics-Defying maneuver that will result in him being destroyed and I delivering a really awesome "One Liner" before I fly back to marry that British Girl who can never go back to regular Brit men after being with a real man!"

:-D

It would be funnier if it was not true...

[bongodriver]

I found it very funny and very true...

[ATAG_Snapper]

Riiigggghhhhtttttt

Never heard that before, there were still a lot of aces pilots on the western front.

Not a chance, Krupi. They all died in the Battle of Britain. Apparently. ;)

There's all kinds of stuff I never knew that I'm just learning now on this forum! :)

EDIT: It pays to check other threads here. From what I can deduce, surviving Luftwaffe veteran airmen were no doubt crushed by a rash of toppling locomotives caused by those pesky strafing P-47's and Tyffies!

[speculum jockey]

Good one Speculum J,That was solid gold mate, spot on ;)
The closest I can come up with as a reasonable modern WWII hollywood
movie is probably Memphis bell!

Cheers
Craig

Yup, that's a good example. The only way I can think of that being blown out of proportion "Hollywood Style" would be to have the gunners shooting down dozens of 109's. Then again they had a pretty tight budget that didn't leave much for superfluous special effects.

[GOA_Potenz]

Is just a movie to entertain people, just that, worst than this movie are the dogfights series by history channel , self called documentary channel

[6S.Manu]

Is just a movie to entertain people, just that, worst than this movie are the dogfights series by history channel , self called documentary channel

Of course, still I guess that many uninformed people will be morally subjugate.

[machoo]

"On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters.


Can you imagine seeing that fly over. Holy hell!

[Kongo-Otto]

Has Hollywood made a good/realistic WWII film?

Yes they did, long time ago, but they did just to name a few:

Twelve o'clock high Part one of full film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHTXK8JldLA&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G01O8qM1Xvo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgX1WBf2SjE

Not from Hollywood, but nevertheless a good one:
Ice cold in Alex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQceAiTNLUU&feature=related)

[trumps]

12 o'clock high would definately be one of the best war movies made.

[IamNotDavid]

The Big Red One was one war cliche after another.

[ARM505]

Also JG7
"On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s"wikipedia

That's just about he coolest thing that ever happened...

"Ok Mein Herren, zis vil be easy, zey only outnumber us 50 to 1"......

Yeah, I'd rather see this movie actually!

[MD_Titus]

Just seeing the clip of the P-51 doing an Su27 style backflip is enough for me to leave well alone.

tbf i think that comes from a pilot account, i remember seeing a very similar move in a clip from (i know) the history channel not too long ago.

[MD_Titus]

Tuskegee airmen where very good only because they had racial issues.
They forced to prove things that days, just for the American society.

uh, what?

[Rjel]

I just love how U.S. pilots (actually all Allied pilots) contributions in WWII are continually trivialized by those fans of the Luftwaffe. Tell me, what was the better strategy? Flying high scoring Aces until they dropped or continually turning over your forces so you had combat trained instructors teaching those who followed? It obviously wasn't just loads of pilots and planes that turned the tide for the Allies. Remember the Russians had scads of both in 1941. It didn't do them much good, did it?

When the Americans first started combat over Europe, the Luftwaffe still enjoyed local air superiority most days. Also, there weren't a thousand P-51s concentrated in one area of Germany at any given time. By most accounts I've read, all the USAAF fighter groups were staggered while they performed their escort duties. One group would escort a given part of a bomber stream until relieved by a fresher group. So the idea that a mere 100 Germans stood in the face of a thousand P-51s is BS. They might have faced a 1000 bombers in any given mission, but those were also strung out of a 100 mile long line.

[Frequent_Flyer]

I just love how U.S. pilots (actually all Allied pilots) contributions in WWII are continually trivialized by those fans of the Luftwaffe. Tell me, what was the better strategy? Flying high scoring Aces until they dropped or continually turning over your forces so you had combat trained instructors teaching those who followed? It obviously wasn't just loads of pilots and planes that turned the tide for the Allies. Remember the Russians had scads of both in 1941. It didn't do them much good, did it?

When the Americans first started combat over Europe, the Luftwaffe still enjoyed local air superiority most days. Also, there weren't a thousand P-51s concentrated in one area of Germany at any given time. By most accounts I've read, all the USAAF fighter groups were staggered while they performed their escort duties. One group would escort a given part of a bomber stream until relieved by a fresher group. So the idea that a mere 100 Germans stood in the face of a thousand P-51s is BS. They might have faced a 1000 bombers in any given mission, but those were also strung out of a 100 mile long line.

Well said, but you won't convince the goofs on this forum. More Luftwaffe Aces were lost to western allies than the east, in fact the Luftwaffe suffered more losses in total to the west. In addition, the Luftwaffe fought over the own territory for nearly the whole western conflict. Once the Luftwaffe had to face superior aircraft and better pilots of the west, they were exposed .

The best pilots of the war were in the pacific. Fighting in much more difficult weather conditions over far larger distances, most of it being water( any one who has actually piloted a small craft over nothing but water can imagine the difficulty faced by pilots who were engaged in combat,disoreinted, low on fuel maybe wounded and needed to find your aircraft carrier with the navigational equipment used in the 1940's) . Landing and taking off of a carrier in good weather during daylight hours takes more skill than anything the Luftwaffe ever faced. Than try it in poor weather at night with little or no fuel as was the case for the USN in a number of engagements. This is to say nothing of the navigational skill needed a bit more challenging than flying barely past the border of your own country. Where if you bailed out there was a good chance you would rejoin your own unit by morning. In the Pacific , if you left your aircraft you more than likely were not seen from again.

[swiss]

this was so sentimental - you almost made me cry.

:rolleyes:

[MD_Titus]

I just love how U.S. pilots (actually all Allied pilots) contributions in WWII are continually trivialized by those fans of the Luftwaffe. Tell me, what was the better strategy? Flying high scoring Aces until they dropped or continually turning over your forces so you had combat trained instructors teaching those who followed? It obviously wasn't just loads of pilots and planes that turned the tide for the Allies. Remember the Russians had scads of both in 1941. It didn't do them much good, did it?

When the Americans first started combat over Europe, the Luftwaffe still enjoyed local air superiority most days. Also, there weren't a thousand P-51s concentrated in one area of Germany at any given time. By most accounts I've read, all the USAAF fighter groups were staggered while they performed their escort duties. One group would escort a given part of a bomber stream until relieved by a fresher group. So the idea that a mere 100 Germans stood in the face of a thousand P-51s is BS. They might have faced a 1000 bombers in any given mission, but those were also strung out of a 100 mile long line.

+1

I get the impression that some would think reenactors are ever justified in donning SS uniforms as well.

Also I find it... Curious, shall we say, that a film that has an obvious civil rights and equality message is being derided for that very same message. The action scenes are the flashy sideshow, not the raison d'etre of the film.

[Sternjaeger II]

Well said, but you won't convince the goofs on this forum. More Luftwaffe Aces were lost to western allies than the east, in fact the Luftwaffe suffered more losses in total to the west. In addition, the Luftwaffe fought over the own territory for nearly the whole western conflict. Once the Luftwaffe had to face superior aircraft and better pilots of the west, they were exposed .
I'm sorry man, but that sounds a bit biased. You're not keeping into account the sheer imbalance in numbers: the USAAF only could put up 10 to 50 times more planes than the Luftwaffe. Despite these tremendous numbers, there still are circa 100 German pilots with at least 100 kills in their combat career. Considering the conditions in which they fought, with inferior machines, lower numbers and difficult logistics, saying that the Allies had better pilots is ludicrous to say the least.


The best pilots of the war were in the pacific. Fighting in much more difficult weather conditions over far larger distances, most of it being water( any one who has actually piloted a small craft over nothing but water can imagine the difficulty faced by pilots who were engaged in combat,disoreinted, low on fuel maybe wounded and needed to find your aircraft carrier with the navigational equipment used in the 1940's) . Landing and taking off of a carrier in good weather during daylight hours takes more skill than anything the Luftwaffe ever faced. Than try it in poor weather at night with little or no fuel as was the case for the USN in a number of engagements. This is to say nothing of the navigational skill needed a bit more challenging than flying barely past the border of your own country. Where if you bailed out there was a good chance you would rejoin your own unit by morning. In the Pacific , if you left your aircraft you more than likely were not seen from again.

I would say that the worst conditions were in the Pacific, but the best pilots is based on what assumptions? Pacific pilots didn't have to face enormous flak barrages, being bounced by skilled wolfpacks etc.. sure, the conditions were harsher and the odds of surviving smaller if shot down over the sea, but this doesn't make them better pilots. As per navigation skills, they all relied on the same training and methods, if anything it's easier to navigate at sea because you can rely on good instruments or star navigation, and make less errors by spotting landmarks and confusing them with something else.

[CrazySchmidt]

F^k yeah baby, these trailers have me pumped just like your momma!!

This is my most anticipated movie release by a long shot.

I can remember reading an article about George Lucas researching WWII footage for the flight attack flight sequences in Star Wars against the Death Star and thinking to myself, just imagine if this guy ever did a WWII movie!!

Oh yeah baby it's happening right now!!!


@Bearcat, this must be of interest you right? When I first saw your sig all those years ago @ UBI, I didn't even know what the Red Tails was in your sig!

Between then and now... man do I get it... Salute and also thank you again for being a friend and comrade with MM!!

CS. :)

[bongodriver]

F^k yeah baby, these trailers have me pumped just like your momma!!

This is my most anticipated movie release by a long shot.

I can remember reading an article about George Lucas researching WWII footage for the flight attack flight sequences in Star Wars against the Death Star and thinking to myself, just imagine if this guy ever did a WWII movie!!

Oh yeah baby it's happening right now!!!

CS. :)

I believe the original Dambusters movie was what really inspired the Star wars Death star sequence.

[CrazySchmidt]

I believe the original Dambusters movie was what really inspired the Star wars Death star sequence.

If you say so.

[OutlawBlues]

Some of you boys need to loosen up a bit. It's a movie for christ sake, its about being entertained. If its got warbirds flyin around, I'll be there.;)

[bongodriver]

If you say so.

No need to get pissy about it, it's something I read and looking at the sequence I can see why...

[CrazySchmidt]

No need to get pissy about it, it's something I read and looking at the sequence I can see why...

LOL... It was an expression of indifference, not objection.

All good here mate.

CS. :)

[proton45]

I believe the original Dambusters movie was what really inspired the Star wars Death star sequence.

I always thought is was the Gregory Peck movie "Twelve O'Clock High"...I heard it was the sequence where they where getting attacked by Messerschmidts, and the crew men of the humble B17 had to defend themselves. Its suppose to synch up with the scene of them defending the Millennium Falcon from Tie fighters...

[bongodriver]

I always thought is was the Gregory Peck movie "Twelve O'Clock High"...I heard it was the sequence where they where getting attacked by Messerschmidts, and the crew men of the humble B17 had to defend themselves. Its suppose to synch up with the scene of them defending the Millennium Falcon from Tie fighters...

Perhaps thats true as well, but I was talking specifically about the death star sequence.

[MD_Titus]

Inferior machines stern? Woah, stop the presses, nerf the luftwaffe! For years we've had the mechanical superiority/numerical inferiority of the luftwaffe rammed down our throats and now you say it is a lie!

Mind.

Blown.

[IamNotDavid]

Considering the conditions in which they fought, with inferior machines, lower numbers and difficult logistics, saying that the Allies had better pilots is ludicrous to say the least.



That is a pretty big pantload. Difficult Logistics? The US had to move all their aircraft and supplies across the Atlantic friggin Ocean. German aircraft could be pushed from the factory to the runway. That the Germans were flying inferior machines is also pretty silly.

[IamNotDavid]

make less errors by spotting landmarks and confusing them with something else.

This is also absurd. It's true that pilots over the ocean don't have any landmarks to confuse them. They also don't have any landmarks to save them. Given the choice, I'll take my chances with "confusing" landmarks. IFR is a lot easier when there are roads to follow.

[bongodriver]

if tou can see the surface you wouldnt fly IFR

[IamNotDavid]

if tou can see the surface you wouldnt fly IFR

I Follow Roads.

[Sternjaeger II]

Inferior machines stern? Woah, stop the presses, nerf the luftwaffe! For years we've had the mechanical superiority/numerical inferiority of the luftwaffe rammed down our throats and now you say it is a lie!

Mind.

Blown.

When I say "inferior machines" I do not merely refer to performance or quality of the planes, but the fact that the flight lines suffered constantly of lack of spares, oils, fuel and ammunition.

Quality-wise there surely was a gap between American and German planes, the main differences being in the availability of materials for industrial production (the Mustang itself was made of at least 40 different kinds of alloys), but technology-wise stuff like the kommandgerat and the jet fighters put the Luftwaffe years ahead.

[Sternjaeger II]

That is a pretty big pantload. Difficult Logistics? The US had to move all their aircraft and supplies across the Atlantic friggin Ocean. German aircraft could be pushed from the factory to the runway. That the Germans were flying inferior machines is also pretty silly.

erm, were the Allied harbours, bases and factories continuously hammered throughout the war? No. Did they have limited access to resources like the Germans? No. Did they keep on using the same crews and pilots like the Germans? No. And machines weren't inferior, but suffered from limited logistics, low engines TBOs and general lack of spare parts.

This is also absurd. It's true that pilots over the ocean don't have any landmarks to confuse them. They also don't have any landmarks to save them. Given the choice, I'll take my chances with "confusing" landmarks. IFR is a lot easier when there are roads to follow.

erm, IFR doesn't rely on landmarks. IFR is actually safer than VFR in terms of long navigation. I appreciate you don't have a VFR or IFR license, that's why you probably don't understand this, but Bongo can confirm this himself I suppose.

[bongodriver]

I Follow Roads.

I can't believe I did that.....

David is using a classic aviation annecdote.....

[IamNotDavid]

erm, were the Allied harbours, bases and factories continuously hammered throughout the war? No.


That would not have been a problem if the Germans had superior pilots.


Did they have limited access to resources like the Germans? No.


From 1942 to 1944 the Germans had access to all the resources in Europe


Did they keep on using the same crews and pilots like the Germans? No.


Stupid strategic planning is no excuse.


And machines weren't inferior, but suffered from limited logistics, low engines TBOs and general lack of spare parts.


boo...hoo...


erm, IFR doesn't rely on landmarks. IFR is actually safer than VFR in terms of long navigation. I appreciate you don't have a VFR or IFR license, that's why you probably don't understand this, but Bongo can confirm this himself I suppose.

I Follow Roads. There are no roads at sea, sparky. The idea that no landmards is better than landmarks is completely absurd.

[IamNotDavid]

Tactically the Germans had every advantage. They never had to worry about landing in enemy territory or running out of fuel. They had the initiative whenever they attacked, and could run away when they lost the initiative. They could land, rearm, and get back into the fight. They did not have to deal with the fatigue of flying long distances before getting into combat.

[Sternjaeger II]

That would not have been a problem if the Germans had superior pilots.

this is a poor attempt David, pilots were superior (in experience and tactics) but in small numbers. It's actually surprising to see how they kept on delivering planes and pilots despite being under siege.


From 1942 to 1944 the Germans had access to all the resources in Europe

All resources? Care to explain which resources you mean? Germany had the biggest resources at the time, the only two things they really used were oil from the East (until the Americans and Russians started to attack there) and the Dnepr area, which they lost soon. They did the same mistake they did in the First World War: they didn't take resources into account for more than 3 years and found themselves fighting a war of logistic attrition.


Stupid strategic planning is no excuse.

what? Where were they supposed to fish their pilots exactly? the USA alone had half a million people living there, with no threats and factories working at full steam.. I'm afraid you're missing some important aspects of WW2.


boo...hoo...

how is that supposed to be a comment worth a reply?


I Follow Roads. There are no roads at sea, sparky. The idea that no landmards is better than landmarks is completely absurd.

Yeah, brilliant joke, never heard of it :rolleyes: Pilots that relied on landmarks landed in England thinking they were in France and viceversa.. I don't think you have an understanding of IFR man, so, to paraphrase your suggestion of some time ago, Google it before sounding like a complete moron.

[bw_wolverine]

So hey, how about that Red Tails huh? Looks like a typical Hollywood flag waver flick, but could be fun. I'll check the reviews and if it gets a decent enough rating, I'll check it out.

[Sternjaeger II]

Tactically the Germans had every advantage. They never had to worry about landing in enemy territory or running out of fuel. They had the initiative whenever they attacked, and could run away when they lost the initiative. They could land, rearm, and get back into the fight. They did not have to deal with the fatigue of flying long distances before getting into combat.

That's what they did, that's why they have such impressive aerial victory figures. Still, it takes time and efforts to climb to 10k feet if not more, with fighters waiting and having tactical and numerical advantage, against a sea of bombers.

I still think you don't fully realise the odds here.

[Sternjaeger II]

So hey, how about that Red Tails huh? Looks like a typical Hollywood flag waver flick, but could be fun. I'll check the reviews and if it gets a decent enough rating, I'll check it out.

yep, fair point, let's try and stay on topic. I'll watch the movie when it comes out, I have to say that the second trailer was a bit more exciting (apart for the odd one or two scenes..).

[IamNotDavid]

All resources? Care to explain which resources you mean?

You were the one whining about lack of resources. They had all the resources in Europe.

I'll give you one thing, the Luftwaffe fans are definitely better at coming up with excuses.


Yeah, brilliant joke, never heard of it :rolleyes: Pilots that relied on landmarks landed in England thinking they were in France and viceversa..


Where do you think carrier pilots landed when they mistook one patch of empty ocean for a different patch of empty ocean?

Seriously, trying to argue that landmarks are worse then no landmarks is so idiotic that I'm really amazed that you're not trying to pretend you never said it.


I don't think you have an understanding of IFR man, so, to paraphrase your suggestion of some time ago, Google it before sounding like a complete moron.

This is quite comical coming from someone who thinks that landmarks are a disadvantage.

[IamNotDavid]

I still think you don't fully realise the odds here.

Neither did Hitler, apparently.

The Germans had a huge tactical advantage. That's why many of then had such high kill numbers. It had nothing to do with their pilots being superior.

[bongodriver]

Anyway....werent carriers equipped with DF (huffduff) in the latter parts of the war? that certainly makes finding home easier.

[Sternjaeger II]

You were the one whining about lack of resources. They had all the resources in Europe.

I'll give you one thing, the Luftwaffe fans are definitely better at coming up with excuses.


they hadn't, you probably didn't inform yourself well enough.



Where do you think carrier pilots landed when they mistook one patch of empty ocean for a different patch of empty ocean?

it hardly happened, because they used radio navigation, which is a form of IFR. I'm surprised I'm even having to explain this to you.


Seriously, trying to argue that landmarks are worse then no landmarks is so idiotic that I'm really amazed that you're not trying to pretend you never said it.

you're changing my words. I said that IFR is safer than VFR, because there's less margin for error. In some cases landmarks can be misinterpreted and cause the pilot to get lost, if you ever flew on a small plane you would know this. The fact that you want to have an opinion on things you know zip about and have no experience with is somewhat grotesque, you don't socialise much out of here, do you?


This is quite comical coming from someone who thinks that landmarks are a disadvantage.
Read above.

And for the record, this is the last answer I give you here, if you want to continue this conversation and make a buffoon out of yourself, feel free to start a thread in the off topic forum.

Now, back to Red Tails..

[IamNotDavid]

it hardly happened, because they used radio navigation, which is a form of IFR. I'm surprised I'm even having to explain this to you.


What do you think pilots used when their radio navigation equipment was damaged? How do you think that process worked for carrier pilots?

[6S.Manu]

I don't understand... What the meaning of "superior pilot"?

Why are you arguing about that? I thought the problem was Hollywood.

[bongodriver]

What do you think pilots used when their radio navigation equipment was damaged? How do you think that process worked for carrier pilots?

Obviously it didn't work well for the few that had that speciffic bit of equipment damaged.

[SIDWULF]

Just seeing the clip of the P-51 doing an Su27 style backflip is enough for me to leave well alone.

You would think if you were making a WW2 Air combat movie you would at least know how aircraft fly, and what is possible and all the little cavets of dogfighting such as high and low yo-yo's and scissors and boom and zoom. It is frusturating to see how the aircraft move in that trailer...really lame acctually...I would probly thin the animators know little about WW2 Aircombat. They should of fired up IL2 and did some flying to get an idea!

but the CGI looks awesome and i all my favorite aircraft are in it (Wheres the FW 190??) so i am happy there is a movie coming out that can represent air battles like never before...love CGI.

I would hope to see at least something interesting and respectable like the germans using engergy tactics...

*Edit* I just looked at the trailer again and the movment is ok....just the backflip thing is odd and obviously put in for show...

[SIDWULF]

Oh and there better not be any love story attached to try and make this movie more relatable to "people"....bah

[IamNotDavid]

You would think if you were making a WW2 Air combat movie you would at least know how aircraft fly, and what is possible and all the little cavets of dogfighting such as high and low yo-yo's and scissors and boom and zoom. It is frusturating to see how the aircraft move in that trailer...really lame acctually...


Actually, they had some current P-51 owners/air show pilots advising them.

[bongodriver]

Actually, they had some current P-51 owners/air show pilots advising them.

even if it were possible the whole idea of using a manouver that deliberately puts you pointing vertical with little airspeed defies all logic in dogfighting, if it happened it was a 1 in a million lucky move.

[IamNotDavid]

even if it were possible the whole idea of using a manouver that deliberately puts you pointing vertical with little airspeed defies all logic in dogfighting, if it happened it was a 1 in a million lucky move.

Yes, it does. Most likely it was done in desperation. There is an interview with a WW2 pilot in the Dogfight series where they use a similar animation. I'm sure it's not 100% accurate, but it illustrates the situation the pilot was describing.

[nearmiss]

George Lucas is famous for what?

Star wars...

The red tails will just be more of the same, different setting and characters.

I wonder, if there is a wookie?

Anyway, don't get up tight. It's just entertainment.

Gotta have spectacular stunts, which certainly will not be as "off world" as Transformers, iron man, x-men, etc.

I'll go see it for the air combat action, can't get enough of that. I wouldn't care if the Simpsons were starring in it, if the air combat action is good.

[MD_Titus]

You would think if you were making a WW2 Air combat movie you would at least know how aircraft fly, and what is possible and all the little cavets of dogfighting such as high and low yo-yo's and scissors and boom and zoom. It is frusturating to see how the aircraft move in that trailer...really lame acctually...I would probly thin the animators know little about WW2 Aircombat. They should of fired up IL2 and did some flying to get an idea!

but the CGI looks awesome and i all my favorite aircraft are in it (Wheres the FW 190??) so i am happy there is a movie coming out that can represent air battles like never before...love CGI.

I would hope to see at least something interesting and respectable like the germans using engergy tactics...

*Edit* I just looked at the trailer again and the movment is ok....just the backflip thing is odd and obviously put in for show...

it's not. it's a feel good movie about overcoming bigotry and adversity, with air combat tacked on. actual reference to ACM will be passing and the vast majority of people (read non-pilots or aviation nuts) will have no comprehension of the historical inaccuracy, nor will they care.

[swiss]

When I say "inferior machines" I do not merely refer to performance or quality of the planes, but the fact that the flight lines suffered constantly of lack of spares, oils, fuel and ammunition.

Quality-wise there surely was a gap between American and German planes, the main differences being in the availability of materials for industrial production (the Mustang itself was made of at least 40 different kinds of alloys), but technology-wise stuff like the kommandgerat and the jet fighters put the Luftwaffe years ahead.

This discussion is pointless, those guys believe in Captain America being a historical fact.


From 1942 to 1944 the Germans had access to all the resources in Europe


That's an alternate history string or maybe you're just an idiot.
I wonder why my grandmother had(or was supposed) to donate all brass, copper and other rare metals her household could spare to the government.


edit:
They never had to worry about landing in enemy territory or running out of fuel.

Really? What were they doing in Africa? Fighting the Axis of evil? What relevance had Romania?
You're second...

[ATAG_Snapper]

it's not. it's a feel good movie about overcoming bigotry and adversity, with air combat tacked on. actual reference to ACM will be passing and the vast majority of people (read non-pilots or aviation nuts) will have no comprehension of the historical inaccuracy, nor will they care.

+1

Ultimately the movie has to show a profit at the box office, so the script & cast are designed to appeal to as many consumers as possible. Discerning aviation nuts such as ourselves, including real pilots, air combat historians, air force veterans, etc. etc. don't exist in sufficient numbers to rake in the huge receipts needed just to break even. Lucasfilms knows we'll still go, anyway, and hold our noses at the arcade/romance/social message bits while enjoying the more credible air action sequences. Tommy can still bring Suzie Rottencrotch to a date 'n grope movie in the back seats, while Mom 'n Dad can also bring the kids (dunno what the movie rating will be).

Meanwhile, Tiefighter Georgie Lucas will be able to pay off the backers and talent and still have enough left over for his 401K's (yeah, like that's a concern! LOL).

[IamNotDavid]

That's an alternate history string or maybe you're just an idiot.


Really? I'm pretty sure the Germans controlled all of Europe. In what alternative universe was that not the case?


I wonder why my grandmother had(or was supposed) to donate all brass, copper and other rare metals her household could spare to the government.

Probably for the same reason that Americans were doing the exact same thing.

[swiss]

My brain hurts, I'm out.

[IamNotDavid]

My brain hurts, I'm out.

It can't possibly hurt very much.

[IamNotDavid]

Really? What were they doing in Africa? Fighting the Axis of evil? What relevance had Romania?
You're second...

North Africa was a minor sideshow for the Luftwaffe.

And I have no idea what Romania has to do with this. I didn't bring it up.

[swiss]

And I have no idea what Romania has to do with this.


I am not suprised at all. lol

[IamNotDavid]

I am not suprised at all. lol

Nor am I surprised that you won't even attempt to explain whatever idiotic connection you apparently dreamed up.

[bw_wolverine]

Geez, guys, what is the point of all this? I guarantee there's no audience watching this side show and cheering for anyone. All anyone here is doing is showing off how much of a jerk they can be.

[bongodriver]

Geez, guys, what is the point of all this? I guarantee there's no audience watching this side show and cheering for anyone. All anyone here is doing is showing off how much of a jerk they can be.

isn't that why the internet was invented?

[IamNotDavid]

All anyone here is doing is showing off how much of a jerk they can be.

From what I have seen that is the entire point of this message board.

[IamNotDavid]

Damn, Bongo beat me to it...

[Katkatman]

In these trailers, there's something shocking me about red tails characters, they're speaking,moving and and other ... like they were living after the twenty first century !!!
I've got some big doubt regarding the acting abilities of who's played these roles, and what they worked on .... (Uniforms maybe ?).
Edit : The only thing the film seems to focus is the black/white relationship during WW2.

[proton45]

erm, were the Allied harbours, bases and factories continuously hammered throughout the war? No. Did they have limited access to resources like the Germans? No. Did they keep on using the same crews and pilots like the Germans? No. And machines weren't inferior, but suffered from limited logistics, low engines TBOs and general lack of spare parts.



erm, IFR doesn't rely on landmarks. IFR is actually safer than VFR in terms of long navigation. I appreciate you don't have a VFR or IFR license, that's why you probably don't understand this, but Bongo can confirm this himself I suppose.

The Germans actually ended the war with a surplus of new (un-used) aeroplanes and spare parts.

The one area they lacked in was, oil...fuel...petrol products.

[Codex]

The Germans actually ended the war with a surplus of new (un-used) aeroplanes and spare parts.

The one area they lacked in was, oil...fuel...petrol products.

Surplus compared to what, the 1000's of allied aircraft/pilots in theatre in 1945? I think you'll find that many of those "un-used" aircraft were actually "unfinished" aircraft, and having surplus aircraft is useless without the pilots and fuel to get them in the air.

[Rjel]

Surplus compared to what, the 1000's of allied aircraft/pilots in theatre in 1945? I think you'll find that many of those "un-used" aircraft were actually "unfinished" aircraft, and having surplus aircraft is useless without the pilots and fuel to get them in the air.

In 1945. Not so much in the years before. In 1943, the USAAF had three fighter groups to commit to action. They held their own without "overwhelming superiority." So to say that Allied pilots were only successful due to numbers is ludicrous and does a tremendous disservice to their memories.

[Flyby]

Someone here said to lighten it up a bit. I think that's a good plan. I'm sure we've all read accounts of the air war, and from the perspectives of combatants on different fronts and different sides. They were all desperate to live, and many died anyway. I recall reading about the other air battle; RAF night bombers versus German night fighters. The Brits had something to be avoided like the plague. It was the tag of "low moral fiber" given to an airman who's nerves might be shot. Unthinkable today. Americans called it being "yellow" as in cowardice. But from what I've read, everyone was scared of not doing their duty. On the Eastern front, German pilots expected a death sentence when having to bail out over enemy territory.
We may talk about making realistic movies, and about those that are not. But we are only talking about movies. I don't think there are many in this thread that have actually walked the walk of air combat in real life. Me included. That means there are many who can only offer up opinions, but not real life air combat experiences.
I don't believe the Tuskegee Airmen never lost a bomber to fighters, and I personally know one of those airmen, and he does not believe it either. I do believe him when he says he returned and had to ride in the back of the train so German prisoners could sit up front. I saw it in his face. So for all the glory of heroic American war movies, there was that aspect of real life hidden from the eyes of the world. Black Americans were still be lynched into the 60s.
So remember. We're "talking" about a movie here. Not walking the walk. 10 whole pages of this?
Flyby out

[*Buzzsaw*]

Man!!!
What ever movie they can produce about WW2 allied pilots will not get the
feeling.

German Aces where fighting 4 straight years over all europe and africa continent THERE IS THE PILOTS REAL FEELING.

Especially the last desperate years when 100 GAF pilots where opposing
1000 well fed napped and fair treated American pilots in their shiny new P51s.

100 war dogs which usually bit the odds and returned back home with 2-3 kills
and obliged to take off back again in 10 mins the most.

Maaan that's is a feeling of a pilot.

Actually the facts are, for anyone who cares to do the research, the actual numbers of USAAF fighter pilots who confronted Luftwaffe pilots at the point of intercept, the numbers were more often on the side the of the Germans.

American pilots had to cover a huge stream of bombers, which was up to 100 km long, typically one Bomb Group of approx. 64 planes would be covered by one fighter Group of approx. 32 planes. (1943 and early '44 would see smaller numbers of USAAF fighters, Groups put up 16 planes most of the time) The Germans would not intercept the whole stream, they would concentrate on one small section. Typical intercept numbers for the Germans were in Gruppe size, (approx. 30-50 planes) and quite often two or more Gruppes would hit the same Bomb Group, the German controllers would do everything they could to concentrate attacks. If another USAAF fighter Group was closeby, it would try to intervene, but typically the Luftwaffe made one quick pass, and then dove away. Thus it was quite common to see the USAAF fighter pilots outnumbered. Of course, the Germans focus was on attacking the bombers, but they more often than not had temporary numbers advantage in fighters at the point of attack.

[swiss]

64 + 32(16)< 50(30).

?

[Kodoss]

Not to mention that german fighter schools were at the edge of disbanding in '44.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Do we really need this completely out-dated, last-century-type "my nation is better" style discussion here in 21st century?

@flyby: good post! I just can imagine how your friend has felt when he had to sit in the back of the train to make place for the enemy.

Let's see about the movie (the air battle seems look as ridiculous as those on the history channel) and the story. My fear is that it will be very Hollywoodian. Very cliche ladden with huge drama. I have doubts that it can reach the level of the other movie on the Tuskegee men which was quite a good movie.

[Kongo-Otto]

This is not a war movie neither is it a movie about air combat, its a movie about the racial segregation of the US Armed Forces which were segregated iirc up to the Korean War and the last Black unit was disbanded around 1954.
Why they choosed the Tuskegee Airmen i dont know, they could have choosed any other Unit which was tagged "colored" like the 761st Tank Battailon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/761st_Tank_Battalion_%28United_States%29) or a single Person like Dorie Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_Miller) or Corporal Freddie Stowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Stowers).

[Frequent_Flyer]

I'm sorry man, but that sounds a bit biased. You're not keeping into account the sheer imbalance in numbers: the USAAF only could put up 10 to 50 times more planes than the Luftwaffe. Despite these tremendous numbers, there still are circa 100 German pilots with at least 100 kills in their combat career. Considering the conditions in which they fought, with inferior machines, lower numbers and difficult logistics, saying that the Allies had better pilots is ludicrous to say the least.

FF-It always interests me how the pro-lufty minimize the fact the Luftwaffe was out numbered at least 6 to 1 on in the VVS favor when the Germans invaded Russia. Yet the vast majority of the Luftwaffe kills and aces were scored in this target rich environment. However, when facing the cleary superior aircraft and pilots in the west and they get their ass handed to them, now their outnumbered and their pilots are all one armed, one eyed fourteen year olds.



I would say that the worst conditions were in the Pacific, but the best pilots is based on what assumptions? Pacific pilots didn't have to face enormous flak barrages, being bounced by skilled wolfpacks etc.. sure, the conditions were harsher and the odds of surviving smaller if shot down over the sea, but this doesn't make them better pilots. As per navigation skills, they all relied on the same training and methods, if anything it's easier to navigate at sea because you can rely on good instruments or star navigation, and make less errors by spotting landmarks and confusing them with something else.

FF-I would venture to guess you have not piloted an aircraft in an environment where all you that is visable is water. Trying to lacate a small island landin strip in the middle of the ocean is very difficult on a clear day. An aircraft carrier is an insignificent dot, that is rolling up and down and pitching side to side. Try linning this up with the ships nav. light off at dusk or early evening, or take off fully loaded for attack. I would say with a reasonable amount of certainy the concentration of AAA on a capital warship is greater than any ground based AAA cofiguration.