Ambient light effect petition

[Strike]

Hi guys!

Just wanted to share with you an effect that was initially released with the game, but later withdrawn through a patch some time ago. It's the ambient light reflections that you'll see when looking at the aircraft from shallow angles.

Here's an example of what it looks like ingame:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UjiG51Oq3rw/TebB3olL1yI/AAAAAAAAEIY/ALHIfieVorY/2011-06-01_00020.jpg

Notice under the wings, there seem to be a few bright "lines" that reflect the ambient light of the atmosphere! It really makes the game look ALOT more picture-realistic and I sorely miss it! It's been gone ever since the patch before the one where we got the over-shiny hurricane. Now the planes look graphics-wise like in Old IL-2 to me. No more interesting reflections etc...

The thing to keep in mind is that it's already been implemented and even available in the past, so why it ever went away has me baffled, seeing that it made the aircraft look perfect!

I have taken some pictures at work today of military aircraft paint to show that even though it's supposed to serve as non-reflective for obvious reasons, it still reflects a lot of light at the right angles!

Here:

First image is to show the actual color of the paint, when viewed from an angle where it does not reflect ambient light, or is consumed by the brighter sunlight!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/strikestrike/WP_000266.jpg

The next two images clearly emphasize the effect seen from ambient sky-coloured light.. Notice around drag-chute box aswell, where direct sunlight is missing, it's easier to see the reflections.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/strikestrike/WP_000267.jpg

And over the horizontal stabilizer...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/strikestrike/WP_000265.jpg

And finally under the wing, reflecting ambient ground light.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/strikestrike/WP_000268.jpg
.

This is ALL very matte paint, but you clearly see the nice realistic look to it, and it USED to be ingame, it has just been removed.

EDIT:
I want a hands up on everyone who wants it back as an OPTION since it makes no gameplay difference but might have an impact on FPS

[JG52Krupi]

Yes please.

Strike, I don't think anyone could have captured a better picture to show this effect off... fantastic shot dude.

[Dano]

I'd quite like the reflectiveness that we had for a few weeks back too, maybe not quite as strong but it did look good at times.

[Doc_uk]

So why was it taking out in the first place?
if they take much more away from this game, there wont be nothing left:(

[JG52Krupi]

So why was it taking out in the first place?
if they take much more away from this game, there wont be nothing left:(

Yeah if they continue like this we will end up with World of Planes :eek: ;)

[icarus]

So why was it taking out in the first place?
if they take much more away from this game, there wont be nothing left:(

If they put this in then AA etc. no one would be able to run it at this point. Thats why these things are removed. They put them back as they find fps savings through optimization. Removing AA is an old trick that devs have used many times to diguise a poorly running game.

[JG52Krupi]

If they put this in then AA etc. no one would be able to run it at this point. Thats why these things are removed. They put them back as they find fps savings through optimization. Removing AA is an old trick that devs have used many times to diguise a poorly running game.

Agreed apart from the fact that we do have AA in this game LOL

[icarus]

Agreed apart from the fact that we do have AA in this game LOL

Well if there is AA in this game it 2x because it looks like aweful on my end and for a lot of other people. if this is their idea of AA its a fail. LOL

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25967&highlight=anti+aliasing

[T}{OR]

Yay.

[Les]

The aircraft do look more flat and less connected to their environment without that ambient light effect.

It may just be my imagination, but I also seem to remember the bare metal patches on the weathered planes used to reflect their environment too. For example, when you rolled the plane, the reflection on the bare metal would change from green to blue as it moved from reflecting the ground to the sky. Whereas at the moment it just changes from dull to shiny.

There's a pre-release development update picture of a bare-metal Stuka showing this effect very clearly.

Hopefully the loss of these ambient reflection effects is just a temporary result of the major graphics overhaul that's under way. If they've been removed just to improve frame-rates, maybe they could be re-introduced as an ultra setting in the plane detail section of the graphics options.

It's one thing for the developers to tweak the overall look of the game, but it's another thing again to take effects out altogether.

As the OP and others have said, it's those kinds of details that help differentiate the current game from others, including the old IL-2. When you put them all together; the graphics, sound, flight-model and historical details, they add up to a flight-simming experience you can't get elsewhere. Take enough of them away or leave them broken for too long and the whole package loses it's appeal.

[skouras]

i voted yes
i can't understand why they put things and later remove them
i like the reflections on gauges right now and how the cockpits look
but can we still have them in future
who knows.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_VY1aV3Zg

[Ali Fish]

i think the release iteration of CLOD was in many ways the best, the woods and all materials really has a certain something about them, then we got a daylight update, and then we got the severe shine everywhere patch ! . what i think is best is a blend of the initiall with the colour fix and just a bit more shine.


i also think that there is no worries wether it will be back.

kinda get the feeling the new graphics algorythmns luthier spoke of are a bit more indepth and that the game itself is half way between one methodology and another that when completed will see see all these aspects working harmoniously and without fault providing better performance too. role on the official sept '11 CLOD patch !

[Stefem]

Hi guys!

Just wanted to share with you an effect that was initially released with the game, but later withdrawn through a patch some time ago. It's the ambient light reflections that you'll see when looking at the aircraft from shallow angles.


This is ALL very matte paint, but you clearly see the nice realistic look to it, and it USED to be ingame, it has just been removed.

I want a hands up on everyone who wants it back!

I think it was removed because it makes the plane look wet and such reflection where affecting the whole plane including exhaust manifold and any other non reflective parts.

[Ekar]

Hi guys!
This is ALL very matte paint, but you clearly see the nice realistic look to it, and it USED to be ingame, it has just been removed.

I want a hands up on everyone who wants it back!

Hi Strike. The effect you're describing is Fresnel reflections, or the way in which many materials reflect more at shallow angles than at facing ones. Typically, metals don't display the properties of fresnel reflections (they are more consistently reflective across all angles), but a painted plane would.


Here's a very shiny Spitfire. (FF to 3:34) I have no idea if this is standard or has been 'buffed up' for show purposes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b8NOlqCDhc&feature=player_detailpage#t=216s

I do believe that the planes ingame could be a bit shinier than they are currently (maybe not this extreme?).

[ARM505]

So, to sum the OP:
"A cool graphical effect has been removed at some point after the MASSIVE forum whine about poor fps/performance"

Hmmmm, not seeing the surprising part here...so saying 'I can't believe they dropped it after it was there already' sounds a little naive to me. We want cool graphical effects, awesome mathematical modelling sim-wise, and high fps?

Very good examples and spotting of the change by the OP, but like I said, it's not like it's a giant surprise that they're dropping low key effects like this. Which definitely add to the look, I agree.

As always - I suppose the best would be to have an option for it, either in some .ini/.cfg, or the menu somewhere.

[Topo]

I did not vote, because i'm waiting for the new graphics engine, and if there is an improvement in FPS agree to the return of this effect.
But only if it is allowed by an improvement in FPS.

Saluti

[SQB]

I would be interested to know why this couldn't be added as an option, certainly if it is turned off it wouldn't effect FPS, making the fps complainers (me included) happy, and when turned on it could look really good for screenshot takers and people with beastly rigs.

So.. add it as an option maybe?

[Phazon]

Are you talking about screen-space ambient occlusion (SSAO)? Because that is still in the game, it just got changed from being always on to an option in the video settings menu. Maybe try turning it on and see if the effect returns? It hits the framerate though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_Space_Ambient_Occlusion

[Shado]

On my own on this I guess, visually I dont like the new patch I'm afraid, why cant they just leave the plane's alone, I certainly dont want that "high gloss" look back it covered everything including weathering, semi is fine.

Take the gamma now, again I guess i'm alone on this one but on my system it just looks pants, maybe it's just me, the land colours are good but I didnt have a problem with the originals.

Fix the Spitfire please stop enforced weathering on that model, we will add our own, and the Bomber cockpits, whats going on there, I know they were not that dirty, they wouldnt be able to fly let alone bomb anything.

Slowly this is turning into WOP graphically :evil:

Hey Herman, I think were lost.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bd840bmFIKg/Tme_EXOd5WI/AAAAAAAAEqY/7uMQJIQzLbE/s800/shot_20110907_195831.jpg

The gamma in the FMB

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lFdtqPXeas0/Tmm6gpu-9_I/AAAAAAAAEqg/lWXiWDOnSU4/s800/shot_20110907_200045.jpg

They keep poking, fix the things that need to be fixed but for the love of this sim dont break those things that aint.

[baronWastelan]

The 1st Rule of CloD: 1 thing made better, 1 other thing made worse.

[Ekar]

I certainly dont want that "high gloss" look back it covered everything including weathering, semi is fine.


I'm not sure what's possible in a game engine when it comes to 'gloss maps' or the ability to control which parts of an object reflect more or less diffusely. That might be a limitation of realtime gfx engines.

Personally, I reckon it would be nice to see a bit of subtle cloud reflection on the wings as you turn your head from the cockpit- and for more weathered planes, more bumps and dents in the panelling done via normal map. You can kind of catch the 'skeleton' of planes sometimes through the flash of specular at the right angle. I really like this look.

Anyway, I'm just a visuals junky. Don't mind me... ;)

[Madfish]

Good catch. Didn't notice it was there before. I voted yes - it could look very nice but performance should be alright. If it performs much worse then I don't mind if it's left out for now or if it's an option you can only select in the settings.

[Phazon]

Hey Shado I wouldn't take all the visual abnormalities as intentional changes in the beta patch. There are a few visual bugs introduced (horizon line bug for example) that clearly weren't intentional, for example I think the cockpit glass is currently bugged in that image.

That said its still good to report everything that we think is out of place or doesn't look right - intentional or not. :)

[Ze-Jamz]

I voted Yes, I do miss that effect and well done to the OP for the pictures

[Sneaksie]

I think the effect will return if you turn SSAO on.

[Ze-Jamz]

I think the effect will return if you turn SSAO on.

Mine is ON

[Strike]

Has nothing to do with SSAO if I understand it correctly. SSAO is what adds shadow to the corners and stuff (look around where the radiators meet the underside of the wings of 110 or spit or 109, you'll see a gray'ish shadow in there. That's SSAO.


Example from Half-Life 2, look behind the phone stand. That shadow is created and calculated from SSAO.
http://www.ixbt.com/video3/images/gt200-8/ssao.jpg

The ambient light reflection glossiness thingy should indeed be an option since a few people here chose "no". I liked it a lot and have not noticed any particular increase/decrease in stutters/FPS since that was removed, I only noticed improvements in FPS after the huge terrain generating patch and turning down buildings detail :)

[Les]

Has nothing to do with SSAO if I understand it correctly. SSAO is what adds shadow to the corners and stuff...

That was my understanding too.

I was under the impression though that SSAO becoming optional happened about the same time the reflections disappeared, so they might be related in that way, with both being removed to optimize the frame-rates, but only the more obvious and easier one to make a switch for being made optional. Just guessing though, it could have been broken by something else they adjusted for all I know.

[Cobra8472]

I'm going to help you all and tell you the proper term for the lighting technique you're describing:

Fresnel Lighting, or alternatively, a simpler way to say it is usally "Rim Lighting".

Here's an example of it being used in a different application:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~nexx/stuff/smg_unreal2.jpg

So, to reiterate;

this is not SSAO, not normal maps, not anything but a simple fresnel shader.

[Stefem]

I did not vote, because i'm waiting for the new graphics engine, and if there is an improvement in FPS agree to the return of this effect.
But only if it is allowed by an improvement in FPS.

Saluti
It was not disabled for performance reasons, it was because it affect the whole plane including exhaust manifold, fabric covered parts, etc.
Need to be reworked first
I'm going to help you all and tell you the proper term for the lighting technique you're describing:
Fresnel Lighting, or alternatively, a simpler way to say it is usally "Rim Lighting".
Here's an example of it being used in a different application:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~nexx/stuff/smg_unreal2.jpg

So, to reiterate;
this is not SSAO, not normal maps, not anything but a simple fresnel shader.
Yea, it's a "simple" shader, they need to rework all the aircraft models so it can be applied only on certain parts, it shouldn't be too hard but devs are quite busy now

[Cobra8472]

It was not disabled for performance reasons, it was because it affect the whole plane including exhaust manifold, fabric covered parts, etc.
Need to be reworked first

Yea, it's a "simple" shader, they need to rework all the aircraft models so it can be applied only on certain parts, it shouldn't be too hard but devs are quite busy now

While you can control the fresnel lighting via a specular mask (i.e. kind of like controlling specular shine), you CANNOT control the amount of fresnel based on any complex environment detail, or based on the actual specific angle/part conjuction of the aircraft.

You can for example feed the averaged colour of the atmoshpere scattering to the fresnel shader (like making it more orange-pinkish at dusk), further increasing the usefulness of the shader, but not much more than that really.

EDIT: Also to keep in mind, stuff like using specular maps to mask Fresnel lighting becomes -really- costly in the end in terms of performance.

[Strike]

I really wish once they finish this major graphics overhaul they can bring back these ambient light reflection effects as an OPTION in the graphics options menu. Players who want it can enable it and players who don't can disable it.

They disabled it long time ago and I sorely miss it. Made the sim really stand out to its competitors and made it as real looking as possible.

A few memories in these screens:

https://vcjgrg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pGo9FOPrPADOQSdXeHg4scVDTEPI9Po2cyJQbxrAoNC5uk5b rt-SvzclYMeCRI_caynkxYsDjwcrW9a8BpBbnCiv6KcvMYxMB/shot_20110407_205427.bmp?psid=1

https://vcjgrg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pqy_thedFVnibNX0Gi629Zjvf56Jp4ekdS6iJPMs0YcYJ3FI 0dgWUt8NTFk8lVJbA7N5kKKC5owOUeN0KCmfZuEbAYBYNK-V4/shot_20110407_175836.bmp?psid=1

Especially notice the beautiful orange glow along the hurricane leading edge and the 109 engine nacelle/cockpit.

Stunning