Suddenly Spit IIa on all the servers?

[Winger]

whats the idea behind it? ******* up the game for the german side? SUCCESS!! This is a joke guys. The 109 modeled in game cant do shit against a spit IIa. it cant even run from it. So whats you serverhosters point? I mean it wasnt even present in the BOB in significant numbers...How about just adding lots of AIs in 109s and everyone flies spitfire. Yeah that must be fun.

Always the same with those flightsims.

Winger

[pupo162]

Stop whining. dont like, make your own server.

[Winger]

Stop whining. dont like, make your own server.

Go fart around elsewhere Pupo:P Explanation: German Pups = Fart.
Ah and let me guess. You fly allied side mostly? Since noone that prefers flying german has left big fun since this practice started. Just take a look at the numbers. Post this habbit the sides were most of the time even with some runaways to the one or the other side. Now there are jusut a few Germans and believe me even those will vanish if it stays like that. They simply start flying allied. And only the noobs that dont know it better jump into the coffin named 109. Even a bad Spit pilot in a IIa must be just stupid to loose a fight against a 109 on even energylevels. Even if the 109 is an ace.

Winger

[LoBiSoMeM]

Even a bad Spit pilot in a IIa must be just stupid to loose a fight against a 109 on even energylevels. Even if the 109 is an ace.

If the 109 pilot is an ace, he will not enter a fight with a Spitfire IIa with the same energy...

:cool:

[JG53Frankyboy]

i am actually wondering if anyone is thinking that there should be a difference in flight performance between the 109E-1, -3 & -4............

1C should programm them with the absolute same FM! IMHO

[Winger]

If the 109 pilot is an ace, he will not enter a fight with a Spitfire IIa with the same energy...

:cool:

I know that. But somtimes there is no other choice - especially on a dogfight server. I know now one can say just play full real. But why not simply restore the balance that we had before? The IIa doesnt belong into this scenario.
It simply negates the fun fun to play the opposing side. I mean be honest. We all play to win... And its just no fun if you start each game knowing the other players always get 3 of the 4 aces on the deck. Especially when those 3 aces come from another game!

Winger

[Winger]

i am actually wondering if anyone is thinking that there should be a difference in flight performance between the 109E-1, -3 & -4............

1C should programm them with the absolute same FM! IMHO

Who said otherwise? It should have the same FM. but actually it doesnt matter since no matter what 109 you fly. The Spit IIa outturns, outdives, outruns and outclimbs you. THERE IS NO POINT IN FLYING AGAINST IT!

Winger

[JG53Frankyboy]

i just made the post because perhaps some missiondesigners thought " hey, there is a new 109 with a higher number . it has to be a better plane perfomancewise , hence the higher number. Lets put the Spit II in together with this E -4".... or something similar ;)

[furbs]

If the 109 pilot is an ace, he will not enter a fight with a Spitfire IIa with the same energy...

:cool:

The spit2 doesn't need a equal energy state, its fine chasing the 109 down from below and a less energy state.

[BadAim]

This is a flight SIM. If the Spit II outperforms the Bf109E in real life, then it should out perform it here. Simple. Your complaint is with the mission designers, or do you have real numbers and comparisons?

[Ze-Jamz]

If the 109 pilot is an ACE? Ok granted BUT the Spit2 pilot can be a novice and still do well...you can fly a crosshair around the sky untill you shoot something..

You dont have to worry about Speed/energy & height..I can jump in it and not worry about getting in a furball with 2/3 109's OR worry about a Merge with a 109 Co-Alt

Infact 10 mins ago i done just that, same Alt on the merge with a 109, We both went vertical and I got to the top quicker and held it...he was smoking and crash landed 2 mins later...then i shot down another who dove down on me with loads more E, within pretty much 2 turns ive matched his E state, 10 secs later..dead...neither of these pilots were novices

Surely it wasnt that easy in RL? If it was then we would have had alot more big scoring aces!

[JG53Frankyboy]

There should be a slight difference, for different weights, and I understand (where's Kurfurst when you need him?) that the E-3's engines produced about 75 more HP. Not alot I know, but a little better.

The Spit II is a bit more than 100kph faster than any current 109, so it is a bit of an uneven matchup. Spits should be faster up high, not down low, and not to the extent that they can outclimb the 109s, even down low.

all 109s in game has the same armourequipment......so, their general weight is the same.
the E-1 had some few kilos less because of the armament.
Production , maintenance and pilotweight differences simle made this small difference to zero in performance.
What engine they had? DB 601A-1 or the little bit more powerfull DB601Aa, well, both is possible for all variants.


the decissions 1C made in the past about fightervariants are questionable anyway.

Spit I and Hurri I both with Rotol CSP and 100 octan fuel.
Bf109E-1& -4 (plus their -/Bs), both with Db601Aa
would have be my release set.......

later added with Spitfire II, Hurricane II and Bf109E-4/N


british two speed propeller fighters, 109E-3 , were total nonsense decissions IMHO!

[JG52Krupi]

If the 109 pilot is an ACE? Ok granted BUT the Spit2 pilot can be a novice and still do well...you can fly a crosshair around the sky untill you shoot something..

You dont have to worry about Speed/energy & height..I can jump in it and not worry about getting in a furball with 2/3 109's OR worry about a Merge with a 109 Co-Alt

Infact 10 mins ago i done just that, same Alt on the merge with a 109, We both went vertical and I got to the top quicker and held it...he was smoking and crash landed 2 mins later...then i shot down another who dove down on me with loads more E, within pretty much 2 turns ive matched his E state, 10 secs later..dead...neither of these pilots were novices

Surely it wasnt that easy in RL? If it was then we would have had alot more big scoring aces!

LOL nice way of putting it, the spit 2 does seem to out class the 109. I just cant seem to stall it dogfighting compared to the 109 that is always on a knifes edge.

[ElAurens]

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.

[JG52Krupi]

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.


Dude grow up this is not whiners its a fact, currently the only aircraft that has a realistic FM is the Spit Mk2... IRL it could turn better, it could climb better (i think) but currently its MUCH MUCH faster than a 109 as well lol :D.

[robtek]

But even a stall-dogfighting, winning against a spit II, Bf109 is a sitting duck then for even a hurri I 5-20!!

[pupo162]

Go fart around elsewhere Pupo:P Explanation: German Pups = Fart.
Ah and let me guess. You fly allied side mostly? Since noone that prefers flying german has left big fun since this practice started. Just take a look at the numbers. Post this habbit the sides were most of the time even with some runaways to the one or the other side. Now there are jusut a few Germans and believe me even those will vanish if it stays like that. They simply start flying allied. And only the noobs that dont know it better jump into the coffin named 109. Even a bad Spit pilot in a IIa must be just stupid to loose a fight against a 109 on even energylevels. Even if the 109 is an ace.

Winger

I fly german has a favorite, Red if teams are unbalanced.

[robtek]

ElAurens,

you've just lost a lot credibility!
Fact is that all 109 and some other planes perform not as good as in RL.
The spit II comes closest to RL performance, giving a unneeded advantage!

[JG53Frankyboy]

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.

lets see in some years when a first Curtis will arrive in this game engine and it will perform far away from the stats you know. As best , a correct modelled Ki-43 will outdive it :D



actually im wondering why people belive a Spit II was the wonderweapon against an 109. The 1940 Spits where very good. But it is not so ,as if had had a Spit9 with Merlin66 appeared in combat 1940.

[Ze-Jamz]

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.

Couple of words for you to ponder on FlyBoy... Dora n TA (Il2), no allied pilots moaned then either no?.. please

Lol..you obviously cant remember the 109 then when it first came to Il2?... how about the La or Yak then again the 25lb Spit..or like i say the TA..

Dude get of that pedistool.. this is about balance...Its not about wanting to change history, its also about having the FM's as close to RL as possible

[JG52Krupi]

Couple of words for you to ponder on FlyBoy... Dora n TA (Il2), no allied pilots moaned then either no?.. please

Lol..you obviously cant remember the 109 then when it first came to Il2?... how about the La or Yak then again the 25lb Spit..or like i say the TA..

Dude get of that pedistool.. this is about balance...Its not about wanting to change history, its also about having the FM's as close to RL as possible

Spot on.

Its the Battle of Britain it is the closest the 109 will get to outperforming the spit, from here on its basically downhill and your already calling us luftwhiners ;-).

[Winger]

This is a flight SIM. If the Spit II outperforms the Bf109E in real life, then it should out perform it here. Simple. Your complaint is with the mission designers, or do you have real numbers and comparisons?

That is what i said.... leave the spit II out and put in Spits Ias and hurris. This is a very good matchup with the current FMs. AND it equates history since the Spit IIa was not present in BOB in significant numbers. I am no historican but i read that numerous times now and take it to be true.

Winger

[Winger]

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.

Sorry, but youre nothing more than an Idiot to me.

Winger

[Jugdriver]

I mean it wasnt even present in the BOB in significant numbers

This is not really correct, there were 7 fully equipped Spitfire II squadrons by the end of October, which is about 40% of the acitve Spitfire Squadrons, that is a significant number.

That being said the Spit II should not be 100KPH faster than a 109 E at any altitiude, that is excessive to say the least.

JD
AKA_MattE

[Ze-Jamz]

This is not really correct, there were 7 fully equipped Spitfire II squadrons by the end of October, which is about 40% of the acitve Spitfire Squadrons, that is a significant number.

That being said the Spit II should not be 100KPH faster than a 109 E at any altitiude, that is excessive to say the least.

JD
AKA_MattE

100kph? It's not that much faster lol that is a massive difference...20-40kph maybe

[bw_wolverine]

I think people need to stop bringing 'RL' into this.

This argument seems to be obviously completely about multiplayer game balance and not about which plane has what stats.

What happens when they give us a later model 109 that outperforms the Mk IIa? Or something else that does? Will that plane be left off of servers as well?

Unless the top two planes for both sides are completely equally matched in every way, there's no end to this.

Anyway, I like flying the Ia anyway. More interesting than setting RPM and leaving it. I just wish they'd put in the little mid point in the prop pitch control that Spitfire pilots found, turning it into a variable by effect. That's quite useful.

[pupo162]

yep. a simple whine on how mission builders were buiding THEIR missions as turned into a is 109 porked or not.

[Jugdriver]

The Spit II is a bit more than 100kph faster than any current 109, so it is a bit of an uneven matchup. Spits should be faster up high, not down low, and not to the extent that they can outclimb the 109s, even down low.


I was just quoting Cheesehawk here.


JD
AKA_MattE

[ATAG_Bliss]

The reason I decided to try the spitIIa was in the same lines of thinking the FM had been tweaked for this patch. And the FM has been slightly tweaked.

As someone that plays 46, the 1st thing I do in a 109 is climb, climb, climb, and then climb some more before I even thinking about going to enemy territory. If not, I think we can all agree, unless you are a scissor master in the G-2, that any spit, yak, La5, and even some hurri's will eat you for lunch.

Now I've flown the last 2 nights since the patch was out, and I've yet to see a single proper dog fight at altitude. Every single time I see or hear someone engage on vent they are damn near on the deck. Tonight, for instance, I never left England (couldn't leave actually) because every time I spawned AAA was shooting at a 109 on the deck. I would love to see an E3/E4 at 5000m on up, tangle with any of the current red offerings, but it appears as long as I can remember with MP everything is on the deck. And even with the spitIIa in there, it hasn't changed.

Now, the 1st thing I did when I tried out an E4 was climb with it. I took off near the coast of France and by the time I was 1/2 to the middle of the channel I was over 7000m high. Now if I was to take off in a spitIIa, Hurri, or any of their varients, I don't think I would come close to that alt in such a short flight. I guess my point is, has anyone truly tried to fight a spit properly (very subjective I know) as in, has anyone fought one like how you have to in old IL2? Because all I see time and time again is flights at 2500m and lower and furballs on the deck. It was always the reds that would be uncoordinated and not wing up with each other, simple because of their maneuverability. While the blues were always all on coms with each other always using drag and bag / boom and zoom. From what I'm seeing or have been seeing over the past few months this hasn't happened. Vent is always full of reds and blues seem to be flying lone ranger all the time. (again just from what I've seen)

I'm definitely not saying the SpitIIa is badly outclassing any variant of 109, but until I see some high alt fighting where the red planes have much less performance, I'm not completely sold that the spitIIa can simply out do everything the 109 can.

Can we make an effort (even though it may be boring at 1st) to get altitude, altitude, altitude!!!?? And then secondly, blues join vent or your own ts, fly as pairs, bait the reds to come up and play with you, don't go down into their feeding grounds. I know SA is very hard in IL2COD, but since this patch lower contacts are 10x easier to spot than higher contacts. If you are the king of the hill (higher altitude) you have 2 advantages now.

Again, I'm not advocating which plane is better or worse. I fly all the planes, from bombers to fighters, and all sides. I'm not biased with it comes to wanting both historical accuracy or balance. But please try to keep the 109's out of the shark tank on the deck, I think some people might be surprised if you bait the reds to go up top to join the action, instead of the other way around.

One other thing, I think Ataros mentioned, is there is possibly a way to limit the amounts of certain types of planes? Through FBDj you could do that so if you say only 5 spitIIa's can be in the air at once, only 5 ever be spawned. We need that type of control to be able to limit certain aircraft for balance as well.

I will gladly remove the spitIIa if it is proven to be unfairly dominant in both high and low altitude (low altitude we already agree on). All I'm asking for is to do what the reds have been doing for a while now, get on coms or get a wingman, and get tactical.

These are simply my observations. But based on how most of the flying is that I've seen thus far leading up to this point where we're trying the spitIIa back in, the 109's have been deck hugging. (again just my observations) And I completely agree the 109 is too slow on the deck and needs changing!

Again, there's no agenda here, but even if it may be painfully boring to some, how about the blues make the reds get up to them, instead of the other way around? And then see what happens.

Trust me, I'm not trying to make things unfair, but I would like to see how much difference it makes if you bog those merlins down at 18000 ft and see how bad a spitIIa reacts in very thin air, both in turning and performance compared to the E3/E4. Granted a large majority of my time has been spent in the FMB, much more than flying, from some little testing I've done at altitude, I think the new patch 109 might surprise a few people up top. (again, I could be way off base here) But at least give it a try.. Is that too much to ask? And if the spitIIa is the super plane of all planes still, trust me, it will be gone or if possible severely limited fellas :)

[ATAG_Bliss]

But cheese you know as well as I do, that RL isn't close to what we have now, especially for the climb rate of a MkIa. That thing can barely get out of it's own way, let alone climb. I'm just asking, for the time being, to see how well you do if you force the red team up high (especially with how sickly the 1a acts up there) and see what happens. I'm not suggesting that what we have now is in anyway, shape, or form, correct. Just basing on the fact that any 109 can run circles around a 1a currently especially in a climb.

[SEE]

Well done Bliss - presented a sensible argument and solution!

[Das Attorney]

Agreed :)

[Blackdog_kt]

I really enjoy watching the 109 whiners in their ever persistent quest to re-write history.

Cry me a freaking river.

This nonsense has been going on since the dawn of flight simulation. A sub set of German aircraft fanboys pushing their agenda and history be damned.

I laugh in your general direction.

All due respect mate but i think you're also showing signs of an agenda.

It's clearly documented in multiple threads thus far that's it's not only the 109. Every single fighter in the sim, both axis and allied, is undermodelled, except the Spit Mk.IIa

BoB era Spits were mostly tuned as interceptors, with climb rate and performance at altitude in mind. They were not furball machines for low level fights. There have been numerous posts on this thread with more details on that aspect.



That being said, i do find the complaints premature. People just thought "let's see how the E-4 does against the Mk.II" and that's why it's included in the servers now, it's a beta patch and beta patches are meant to be tested.


I think everyone should lighten up and fly some bombers for a change until fighters are fine tuned, especially now that the Blenheim is actually usable (the allied side finally has a bomb carrier) and crew position selection in MP is enabled a la IL2, just team up with a buddy and have a bit of level bombing while multicrewing the plane.

I also like Bliss's suggestion. Get three people in 111s and get up to 5000m, add a top cover of two 110s to boom and zoom anyone that tries to climb up there and sprinkle with a rotte of 109s to get the 110s out of trouble. If it's all about the dogfight then it's no surprise the most maneuverable aircraft will usually win, give them an incentive to play by your rules and then squash them ;-)

[esmiol]

most of the people who cry...need to learn to fly with theur plane...

you don't fly the same way in all circonstance... don't blame the plane but the pilot!

[LoBiSoMeM]

If someday we have an early pacific scenario, with zeros against all allied fighters, with accurate FMs...

War in uneven as hell... :)

[Madfish]

The core problem is: dogfight servers SHOULDN'T have red/blue at all.

All this complaining and crying can be fixed VERY easily. Give both sides the SAME planes. Period.


History, performance, FM blablablabla - all pointless. The pilots of the past had no clue what their enemies weakness was. Also they didn't have 20000 flying hours and a respawn button when they died! They didn't fly reckless sometimes because inexperienced fighters literally peed in their pants. An ace was worth something back then - today everyone can be an as*, eh ace.



Dogfight servers should have open plane selection. Give the red team a red overlay and a special red mark and the same goes for blue. Then everyone can fight out who's really the best - and not just sitting in the best plane while only being a mediocre pilot.


On real co-op/campaign servers it wouldn't matter because numbers etc are often different and thus it's always imbalanced by design.

[Das Attorney]

The core problem is: dogfight servers SHOULDN'T have red/blue at all.

All this complaining and crying can be fixed VERY easily. Give both sides the SAME planes. Period.


History, performance, FM blablablabla - all pointless. The pilots of the past had no clue what their enemies weakness was. Also they didn't have 20000 flying hours and a respawn button when they died! They didn't fly reckless sometimes because inexperienced fighters literally peed in their pants. An ace was worth something back then - today everyone can be an as*, eh ace.



Dogfight servers should have open plane selection. Give the red team a red overlay and a special red mark and the same goes for blue. Then everyone can fight out who's really the best - and not just sitting in the best plane while only being a mediocre pilot.


On real co-op/campaign servers it wouldn't matter because numbers etc are often different and thus it's always imbalanced by design.

Respectfully, I disagree. Maybe there could be some servers where the same plane is used by all, but when I've played Il2 with just the same planes, it tends to be the same thing (tactics-wise) ad infinitum. The best fights imo have had different types of planes, where differing strengths of the planes change how the battle plays out.

Just my opinion though. Maybe others feel different.

Bliss - You mentioned that you want to draw the red pilots up to high altitude. You could tempt them up by changing the height of the bomber raids to something higher than at present. Then they should have enough incentive to intercept and the 109's escorting them (players) could engage. The bombers are quite low at the moment I noted when I was on your server so currently there's not that much incentive for red to get much higher than them. Just a thought :)

[Walshy]

What everyone is forgetting is that the Mk-1 spit had a wooden Watts propellor what we see in the game is a three bladed spit, the wooden Watts constant speed propellor was desigend for high speed at altitude, it had a huge, for it's version and compared to other versions, take off run. The De-Havilland propellor cut that take off run by at least a third and rotol variable cut that again by half (I have done numerous testings with the A2A sims Accusim Spit and it stands up to all accounts). The Spit II should not dominate at height and neither should the Hurricane or for that matter the E-Mil most of the time it'll depend on the pilot. The first Spit to fully outmatch the E-Mill was the Mk V and that was because of the abilty to dive full down, without the half solution that was Mrs. Shillings oriface, which on the Mk-1's (Type 300) and Mk-2's (Type 329) of most of 1940 had yet to be fitted. So if your flying to dive away from a Spit of whatever mark and you're being caught you're not diving right, the Spit pilot HAS in these two MARKS to roll over first and then dive and counter roll in said dive to catch you, a lot going there and a lot of vital seconds to getaway for the E-Mill pilot. Chop throttle and prop pitch if you're going fast enough 300-395 you'll not pop a casket or burn the engine and you CAN do 2000 mtr dive with no bother level out maintain your speed and no bugger on the map will catch you unless he's in an E-Mill ......................... I've yet to be caught by a spit using this maneouver.

[Madfish]

Respectfully, I disagree. Maybe there could be some servers where the same plane is used by all, but when I've played Il2 with just the same planes, it tends to be the same thing (tactics-wise) ad infinitum. The best fights imo have had different types of planes, where differing strengths of the planes change how the battle plays out.

Just my opinion though. Maybe others feel different.

Sorry but please re-read my post. I didn't say everyone has to fly the SAME plane. I said everyone should fly a plane of their choice against a plane of his choice. Nothing would stop you from flying 109's against spits. Ironically it's often the people who want to have the upper hand who're against this type of selection. And if you're not one of them - don't worry: you'll have enough opportunity to fly your 109 against spits. ;)

[Das Attorney]

Sorry but please re-read my post. I didn't say everyone has to fly the SAME plane. I said everyone should fly a plane of their choice against a plane of his choice. Nothing would stop you from flying 109's against spits. Ironically it's often the people who want to have the upper hand who're against this type of selection. And if you're not one of them - don't worry: you'll have enough opportunity to fly your 109 against spits. ;)

Fair enough :) I got the wrong end of the stick there. That would be a lot better. I do a lot of that sort of game with my mates on IL2 and it's quite fun. Personally though, I prefer a historical battle if it's available.

EDIT: As in Luftwaffe vs RAF or USN vs IJN etc. not specific recreations of actual battles ;)

[Walshy]

History does speak and it says volumes that in the period of the Battle of Britain the UK lost more experienced fighters than the Luftwaffe the pressure on the RAF was to put it mortally was immense the bombing of bases, and attrition in the air caused an almost fatal shortage of manpower for fighting. The strain was getting to breaking point and only the shifting of target to cities relieved that pressure. This is not and CAN never be modelled in any sim/game ...............................................

[ATAG_Doc]

Personally I think it's the pilot not the plane.

[Jaws2002]

The core problem is: dogfight servers SHOULDN'T have red/blue at all.




So tell me, how do you know who's who in a full real server (no icons)?:rolleyes: You can easily tell the difference between a spit and a 109. If you do what you want, then you can't fly without those bright red and blue icons.

[schnorchel]

this remind me that lots luftwaffe pilots just vanish and never show up in everyserver after the il2 1946 patch m4.07 is out. Do not tell me that you are not good enough. german is bad guy so has to go to h#ll. Finally I realize that this is just a game do not take it so serious. I still have lot things to do in real life.;-)

[CaptainDoggles]

Guys, just ignore ElAurens. He's a BlitzPig, and they only recruit trolls to their squad.

[MoGas]

as a 109 flyer to 95%, I like the SpitII adding on the server, no more cryings about HOW GOOD THE 109 is against the Spit and so on.....

now we have the E4, mineshells ruin youre day, if you end up infront of it. and by just taking a SpitII it is not a walk in the park for the guy, if he dont know how to fight....

for now a good SA is needed when fighting a SpitII and thats good how it is, I like it harder :grin: it should force people to start with teamplay....

[xnomad]

As for the altitude argument I'm sick of the low flying as well. No matter if I fly for Red or Blue I rarely find anyone up above 2 Km and have to go low to find someone. As I've mentioned in previous posts it's really hard to see guys down low, over land when you are up high.

As for the "everyone is flying Red because of the MKII"... I don't know if ATAG had the MKII when I flew last night but I had to fly Red because everyone was Blue and I'm a 109 nut.

I'm looking forward to trying some more MP tonight! :-D even if I'm stuck in a Spit.

[MoGas]

As for the altitude argument I'm sick of the low flying as well. No matter if I fly for Red or Blue I rarely find anyone up above 2 Km and have to go low to find someone. As I've mentioned in previous posts it's really hard to see guys down low, over land when you are up high.

As for the "everyone is flying Red because of the MKII"... I don't know if ATAG had the MKII when I flew last night but I had to fly Red because everyone was Blue and I'm a 109 nut.

I'm looking forward to trying some more MP tonight! :-D even if I'm stuck in a Spit.

You find me between 3-5000m anytime lol....no ALT means NO energy if needed, some people will find it out as well sooner or later..

[ATAG_Dutch]

Everyone is also forgetting the massive disadvantage any Spit has against a 109 in that the engine cuts under negative G.

So if you catch a Spit of any mark on your tail, dive away as per RL. Or even negative G turns.

I got on the tail of two 109's last night and as soon as my bullets hit, the guy bunted away.
Inverting and diving is possible, but my reflexes aren't what they used to be.
I did follow him in manoevres, just, and got a few more rounds into him, but unfortunately his team-mate shot me first.

So even if the Spit II is faster, there are still ways to overcome.

Last night was the best online CoD experience I've had to date. Just fantastic.;)

[JG52Krupi]

Not true I chased a guy home in a 109 yesterday and he kept on trying to slowly gain height and then dive to use advantage of the spits engine cut out but I still got him :D I was just too fast.

[SEE]

The tendency for very low altitude incursions is the problem. Why are BFs flying so low against the Mk1 Spit and Hurricane?

The idea that the Spit Mk2 is invincible and will wreak death and destruction on the servers was not evident in last nights session. Before exiting the server I counted the deaths of Spit MK2 and compared them against the BF's and there were more with evenly matched numbers.

Not a great bemchmark but even so, the numbers don't support the argument of 'significant advantage'.

A Spit Mk2 will not make you an Ace, it wont improve your Gunnery skills, judgement or ability to spot ac,

Of course rate of climb and speed are advantages but so are Fuel injection and Cannons.

What Bliss is proposing seems fair and sensible. Hopefully, these FM issues will be addressed but lets give the Spit a week or so and accept whatever decision is made.

[xnomad]

Well I finally got shot down by a human flown Spit tonight for the first time. First of all a big thumbs up to the pilot as I met him at 3000 metres! He had a bit of an advantage to start as I had to climb and turn to get on him to ID him first.

I managed to keep him in front of my nose for a few turns back and forth by doing some high yo yos. I got some MG shots on him first from a distance and saw him streaming coolant. So I thought I had this Spit 2 under control. He then went into a dive and I climbed a bit to wait for him to come up again below me.

So I'm expecting him to zoom back up and slow down below me as I've been spiral climbing. Nah he zoomed up and not only that, he did a hard turn whilst climbing and got some shots that knocked out part of my engine and my radiators! Now he was co alt with me and still hauling. You can actually gain altitude by diving and zooming up again but this was very unexpected.

I then did a helpless power dive to get away but my craft was a bit of a mess, I did some bunts and reverses and managed to get an overshoot but he turned on a dime and was right back on my tail. Engine shot to pieces, canopy off and out for a swim in the channel.

It's official I'm scared of the Spit MKII that thing is mean! In the right hands it's an almost impossible match for the 109. Salute to the pilot too, it wasn't just the plane.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not true I chased a guy home in a 109 yesterday and he kept on trying to slowly gain height and then dive to use advantage of the spits engine cut out but I still got him :D I was just too fast.

Precisely my point! He used the wrong tactics and didn't have a team-mate.

My bloke used the right tactics and did have a team-mate. So if people are worried about performance differences, use tactics and a team-mate.

Complaining about the game's FM isn't the full story.;)

[Ze-Jamz]

Its not going to go away so we may as well accept the fact thats its here and here to stay, lets just hope the 109 gets it top speed sorted and the Devs look closely at what power that Spit2 actually has..

Its one of those 25lb spit il2 situations..your choice to fly on the servers that have it, unfortunately there isnt a lot of FR big mapped servers to choose from right now..

Note to devs DO NOT put cannons on that thing:!:

[recoilfx]

A Spit II ambushed me last night at 6k meters - took out my radiators. I dived as way as fast as I could (close to the red mark) after a few wide circles, then I floored and hugged the terrain as low as I could to hide. I got away and landed back home.

So yeah, without height and surprise, 109 can't go against the Spits (even Hurris) - the problem is that every one is on the deck and it's hard to spot planes on the ground.

When the Spits were vulchering above the German fields, I was a sitting duck. There just wasn't enough time to gain enough height and energy. Any slight energy gained is then wasted when the Spit is on my tail again.

[Ze-Jamz]

Precisely my point! He used the wrong tactics and didn't have a team-mate.

My bloke used the right tactics and did have a team-mate. So if people are worried about performance differences, use tactics and a team-mate.

Complaining about the game's FM isn't the full story.;)

True to a certain extent but 109's didnt survive attacks because someone else was available, they survived because they could dive away, or climb for that matter in certain circumstances ;)

[ATAG_Dutch]

109's didnt survive attacks because someone else was available, they survived because they could dive away, or climb for that matter in certain circumstances ;)

I'd say it was all three.:)

I'm in agreement that the MkII is a maybe a bit too quick, but I'm also of the opinion that the the Mk1 is too slow. The performance difference between the two versions wasn't that massive.

Mk1a with Rotol constant speed prop, 320mph@10,000ft.Rate of climb Mk1a 1min 48s to 5000

MkIIa with 150 more hp and same prop 326mph@10,000ft Rate of climb MkIIa 1m 42s to 5000.

So what we need is constant speed props on the Mk1's and the Luftwaffe boys will be happy!:grin:

(stats from Alfred Price, 'The Spitfire Story').

[Ze-Jamz]

I'd say it was all three.:)

I'm in agreement that the MkII is a maybe a bit too quick, but I'm also of the opinion that the the Mk1 is too slow. The performance difference between the two versions wasn't that massive.

Mk1a with Rotol constant speed prop, 320mph@10,000ft.Rate of climb Mk1a 1min 48s to 5000

MkIIa with 150 more hp and same prop 326mph@10,000ft Rate of climb MkIIa 1m 42s to 5000.

So what we need is constant speed props on the Mk1's and the Luftwaffe boys will be happy!:grin:

(stats from Alfred Price, 'The Spitfire Story').

But would that make the Spit1 achieve its correct speed?.. I thought it was under powered and not just issues with prop?..

Also you do have a Medium between the 2 mate..Hurri rotol, they both have their strengths and weaknesses just like the 109 does but at least the Hurri and 109 are modeled better ingame

[ChrisDNT]

You're surprised ?

Just wait for the Focke Wulf 190 A being dominated by the Spit V :rolleyes:

[xnomad]

I don't think there is much you can do against the MKII in a dogfight. You need to do maximum damage quickly or the tables will turn. I shot down a few tonight but they were mainly bounces or green pilots.

I've always said once the bugs get ironed out I'll get my a$$ handed to me once the good spit fliers arrive en masse online, but until today I don't recall being shot down in the 109 by a human Spit.

I've managed to always keep my E up and mix it with the Spit, choosing to even turn hard when I know I can build my E up etc. I haven't been worried about meeting them at co alt either, as long as we aren't near the deck.

However, now that Spit 2 has changed my thoughts on this. I'm going to be a lot more careful now but how do you even disengage if you don't' want to fight, he'll just reel you in eventually? Anyone looking for a wingman? :grin:

[Ze-Jamz]

You're surprised ?

Just wait for the Focke Wulf 190 A being dominated by the Spit V :rolleyes:

Not if they are correctly modeled pal ;)..

I dunno, maybe the Devs know something we dont cuz im sure having at least correct FM's is as important as colour?

[JG53Frankyboy]

i know why i fly mostly bombers online (in the past in IL2 and now in CoD). I can stay away from these "pis.sing contests" :D

and yes, i fly the Blenheim too, most times actually............ ;)



one of the most difficult things to do for a developer, making a historical combat flightsim, has to be to collect all the performance datas and select wich one to choose i guess !!
Making the 3D models is most propably childsplay in comparison :D

[Madfish]

So tell me, how do you know who's who in a full real server (no icons)?:rolleyes: You can easily tell the difference between a spit and a 109. If you do what you want, then you can't fly without those bright red and blue icons.

So you can tell the difference can you? Well, the pilots in the past couldn't tell the difference of a A6M Zero and a P40 and many lives where lost because of it. ;) The 109 and the Spit is one thing - but it's not the only 2 planes the world ever saw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYLXZC63zw



But yes, I admit that we need to figure a way out to handle this. But there will be ways.
Skins for example. Red and blue ones. It works great in other team based games but I admit it comes with issues: hiding would be harder.
There is the possibility of fading skins though. Skins that change color depending on distance basically.
Also regarding icons: yes, the old style icons are wrong but what if it were an identification icon depending on real vision. That would only show up if close enough and if you really see the plane unobstructed. e.g. canope or outside the screen would not display it?
Lastly there is also an option to select a skin and chose different airplane characteristics.

And of course there is always the option of people just going to regular servers if they don't have a problem with the FM or anything.

Keep one thing in mind though. There is a game coming up that WILL have a solution. It's world of planes it it will most likely do it similar to World of Tanks. And no, I don't like the game but I want IL-2 to become a great place for pilots that like WW2. However, with CEM and all this bickering about FM, balance and so on this WON'T happen. Only for freaks but not average new pilots interested in the genre.
This community needs to let go of some ideals of the past if it want's the genre to stay alive I believe.




This said let me say somehting about realism.
When people expect their planes to have the best fuel, ammunition, always spawn it in perfect condition with no material wear or bad service whatsoever, when they sit in front of their monitors, fed and eating great food, being in perfect health and rested. Not having family issues because of the war, being in a moral fight with themselves, being scared up there because they are about to lose their lives, being sad because they see great friends and comrades die, hearing them scream in pain over the voice com when going down...

Also we all are aces, or potential ones. There is always the respawn button and we know the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents perfectly. The pilots back then didn't, or barely. Yet we still demand the FM to be perfect? So we can exploit those very weaknesses we now know planes had? Ridiculous.
Do you seriously think this is realistic and honorable dogfighting? To me it's more like mudfighting on the lowest level.

On top of that there were orders. For example Görings legendary decision to escort bombers at close range, essentially rendering the ME109 useless and making it a sitting duck. Do you know how many 109s were lost because of that?

Or the british flying in line formations, totally ridiculous and some pilots even ignored the order as far as I know.

That said I cannot imagine how people go on about their realism. We CANNOT get realism. We cannot re-create all this. Only during co-op missions and full organized historic wars. This could be done but it's hard. It's not what dogfight servers are about though. Also a true dogfighter would want his opponent to be equal.




Eventually I'll make a write up of this and post it in general. Also please don't be offended. This is not just adressing you but everyone. It's also sounding rude but that is not the intention.
My point is simply that all this talk about FM and so on is far from being historic and that it turns people away from the game only attracting very few freaks. I'm a little scared that the upcoming World of Planes will turn out to be a competitor just because it makes dogfighting easy to get into and "fair and balanced". I want this sim to turn out way better. Maybe it's time to start thinking and discussing options that could improve simple dogfighting in this sim. If all the energy wasted on bringing up historic documents etc. pointing out flaws in your opponents plane would be used for trying to make dogfighting better in this game I'm sure we could come up with something.

[Winger]

most of the people who cry...need to learn to fly with theur plane...

you don't fly the same way in all circonstance... don't blame the plane but the pilot!

There are people on that that would fit. I am definately not one of them.

Winger

[ATAG_Dutch]

Also you do have a Medium between the 2 mate..

Not sure what you mean by a medium between the two Jamz, but I've got the two speed prop Mk1 taking 3m 0s to 5000ft due to weight of new metal 2-speed prop plus ballast in the rear, but then getting to 10,000 in 5m 30s as it gets into it's stride. So only 2m 30s for the next 5000ft.

The top speed at 10,000 is the same as the fixed pitch wooden prop at 328mph, so 2mph faster than MkII at this alt!

[Ze-Jamz]

So you can tell the difference can you? Well, the pilots in the past couldn't tell the difference of a A6M Zero and a P40 and many lives where lost because of it. ;) The 109 and the Spit is one thing - but it's not the only 2 planes the world ever saw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYLXZC63zw



But yes, I admit that we need to figure a way out to handle this. But there will be ways.
Skins for example. Red and blue ones. It works great in other team based games but I admit it comes with issues: hiding would be harder.
There is the possibility of fading skins though. Skins that change color depending on distance basically.
Also regarding icons: yes, the old style icons are wrong but what if it were an identification icon depending on real vision. That would only show up if close enough and if you really see the plane unobstructed. e.g. canope or outside the screen would not display it?
Lastly there is also an option to select a skin and chose different airplane characteristics.

And of course there is always the option of people just going to regular servers if they don't have a problem with the FM or anything.

Keep one thing in mind though. There is a game coming up that WILL have a solution. It's world of planes it it will most likely do it similar to World of Tanks. And no, I don't like the game but I want IL-2 to become a great place for pilots that like WW2. However, with CEM and all this bickering about FM, balance and so on this WON'T happen. Only for freaks but not average new pilots interested in the genre.
This community needs to let go of some ideals of the past if it want's the genre to stay alive I believe.




This said let me say somehting about realism.
When people expect their planes to have the best fuel, ammunition, always spawn it in perfect condition with no material wear or bad service whatsoever, when they sit in front of their monitors, fed and eating great food, being in perfect health and rested. Not having family issues because of the war, being in a moral fight with themselves, being scared up there because they are about to lose their lives, being sad because they see great friends and comrades die, hearing them scream in pain over the voice com when going down...

Also we all are aces, or potential ones. There is always the respawn button and we know the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents perfectly. The pilots back then didn't, or barely. Yet we still demand the FM to be perfect? So we can exploit those very weaknesses we now know planes had? Ridiculous.
Do you seriously think this is realistic and honorable dogfighting? To me it's more like mudfighting on the lowest level.

On top of that there were orders. For example Görings legendary decision to escort bombers at close range, essentially rendering the ME109 useless and making it a sitting duck. Do you know how many 109s were lost because of that?

Or the british flying in line formations, totally ridiculous and some pilots even ignored the order as far as I know.

That said I cannot imagine how people go on about their realism. We CANNOT get realism. We cannot re-create all this. Only during co-op missions and full organized historic wars. This could be done but it's hard. It's not what dogfight servers are about though. Also a true dogfighter would want his opponent to be equal.




Eventually I'll make a write up of this and post it in general. Also please don't be offended. This is not just adressing you but everyone. It's also sounding rude but that is not the intention.
My point is simply that all this talk about FM and so on is far from being historic and that it turns people away from the game only attracting very few freaks. I'm a little scared that the upcoming World of Planes will turn out to be a competitor just because it makes dogfighting easy to get into and "fair and balanced". I want this sim to turn out way better. Maybe it's time to start thinking and discussing options that could improve simple dogfighting in this sim. If all the energy wasted on bringing up historic documents etc. pointing out flaws in your opponents plane would be used for trying to make dogfighting better in this game I'm sure we could come up with something.

Mate I dont care about having a Arcade style same planes server..we had it in Il2 so why not here..however we need realistic or as close to it scenario servers too..again just like in Il2...

No ones here to get this game like WOP, and Im pretty sure no one would want that, this is a Sim.. wed go and buy a console if that's what we wanted, I dont understand your argument here :cool: no offence, I just dont EDIT## Sry I do see your argument but not your point in it being here, with this game...I got rid of the console and built my rig to play Flying Sims, you cant get these types of accurate sims on consoles and up till now you never have..but if you did then you would still have the same discussions if that game is a 'Sim' not an arcade game

There are people on that that would fit. I am definately not one of them.

Winger

+1

Its the exact opposite reason to that as to why were discussing this and have 'some' knowledge on the matter..what we could do though is model every aircraft's FM the same and just make em different visually :rolleyes: how about that?

[Madfish]

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe. :-P

[Gollum]

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?

I usually fly the 109 and used to do pretty well with at least 1 kill per night (not a whole lot since im fine tuning my dive gunnery). Ide get more if I was able to sneak up on them but no matter what It was rare Ide get shot down since I know the golden rules. Maintain altitude, shallow dive away when in touble until energy levels equaled out and then outclimb. However post patch....

I was flying on the full real hyperlobbly server last night..

I took a 109 up and gained altitude (about 4000 M) and crossed the channel following a friendly 109. we turned west when reaching the coast. In the long radious turn I checked our six to find 2 planes approaching from 7:00 low. I figured they were friendly since they were coming from france as well. As they got closer to my dismay I began making out the outline of what I thought was a spitfire. They were close but not within firing range. I quickly engaged afterburner, set prop pitch to 2400 RPM and straigtened out begining a fleeing climb. I maintained this for 30 to 40 seconds and since I was yet to recieve fire jigged my rudder to check my six hoping to see the devilish spitfire a bit further away and under me as would be normal. Unfortunately the buzzard was closer and began firing. (thought to myself oh **** its a IIa). I quickly banked left towards france full throttle adjusting pitch to maintain rpm band in a shallow dive expecting to outrun the beast. Again, to my dismay he advanced... and began tearing my plane appart with his 303s. Frustraded at this point having on normal conditions would had bested his energy in the dive and now begun my climb I asked ( "let me guess.. IIas on this server?"). I recieved the reply : "LOL im in a hurricane"...

Now I'm not saying that i'm a ace 109 pilot because i'm far from it at this point but has anyone else noticed similar problems? I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

It could have been pilot error on my part, you never know, so im not saying it has changed. Just asking if anyone else has had problems outclimbing / diving RAF aircraft since patch.

As far as the IIa debate goes.. I want realism. If the limeys had the planes in certain numbers servers should include limited amounts of them based on number of players online. 20 players online flying for RAF? give them 8 of them to choose from. 40 players? give them 16. This would keep the realism and make it fair for both sides assuming all flight models were accurate to RL. I wouldn't mind watching out for a few while fighting mostly Ia's. And this would prevent the RAF from complaining when the next more advanced Germ fighter comes out. ect....;)

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

[Ze-Jamz]

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe. :-P

~S~

Well having servers that fit in with what your saying as long as we still have our Co-Op FR mission based servers which im sure repka n ATAG will provide with more n more detail once things are easier to play with mission building wise and more importantly work..

As you say have your plane against plane server and indeed it would be a 'dog'fighting server...nothing more

Sry 'arcade' wasnt putting across what i meant ;)

[Madfish]

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none. :-P

[Ze-Jamz]

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?

I usually fly the 109 and used to do pretty well with at least 1 kill per night (not a whole lot since im fine tuning my dive gunnery). Ide get more if I was able to sneak up on them but no matter what It was rare Ide get shot down since I know the golden rules. Maintain altitude, shallow dive away when in touble until energy levels equaled out and then outclimb. However post patch....

I was flying on the full real hyperlobbly server last night..

I took a 109 up and gained altitude (about 4000 M) and crossed the channel following a friendly 109. we turned west when reaching the coast. In the long radious turn I checked our six to find 2 planes approaching from 7:00 low. I figured they were friendly since they were coming from france as well. As they got closer to my dismay I began making out the outline of what I thought was a spitfire. They were close but not within firing range. I quickly engaged afterburner, set prop pitch to 2400 RPM and straigtened out begining a fleeing climb. I maintained this for 30 to 40 seconds and since I was yet to recieve fire jigged my rudder to check my six hoping to see the devilish spitfire a bit further away and under me as would be normal. Unfortunately the buzzard was closer and began firing. (thought to myself oh **** its a IIa). I quickly banked left towards france full throttle adjusting pitch to maintain rpm band in a shallow dive expecting to outrun the beast. Again, to my dismay he advanced... and began tearing my plane appart with his 303s. Frustraded at this point having on normal conditions would had bested his energy in the dive and now begun my climb I asked ( "let me guess.. IIas on this server?"). I recieved the reply : "LOL im in a hurricane"...

Now I'm not saying that i'm a ace 109 pilot because i'm far from it at this point but has anyone else noticed similar problems? I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

It could have been pilot error on my part, you never know, so im not saying it has changed. Just asking if anyone else has had problems outclimbing / diving RAF aircraft since patch.

As far as the IIa debate goes.. I want realism. If the limeys had the planes in certain numbers servers should include limited amounts of them based on number of players online. 20 players online flying for RAF? give them 8 of them to choose from. 40 players? give them 16. This would keep the realism and make it fair for both sides assuming all flight models were accurate to RL. I wouldn't mind watching out for a few while fighting mostly Ia's. And this would prevent the RAF from complaining when the next more advanced Germ fighter comes out. ect....;)

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

Ok the SPit2 thing...:) I think it should just be working as it should along with the 109..atm its not, its working too good or the 109 isnt good enough..whatever

Ok

you say you wanted to climb but you set your RPM to 2400?..why? You wont outclimb anything setting your RPM to 2400...you can have your RPM at 2800 if you like but if your Prop isnt cutting into the air and pulling as it should your achieve nothing m8..

Do some experimenting and put your plane in a steady climb using trim...100% throttle and adjust your PP to around the 10-10.30 mark..see what happens..

Have your PP at 12o clock and RPM at 2400 if your stall fighting or have got yourself low and slow but not from moving at speed which i guess you were...?

[Ze-Jamz]

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none. :-P

Id love one day to play the attrition game in CloD...made ww2ol what it was, brings so many aspects to the game.

no one could moan about FM's then as its up to you to keep the newly developed AC at bay

[Gollum]

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none. :-P

Make it historically accurate. or at least close. nothings perfect but I think it would be better. if theres too much "advanced aircraft in the sky then your bombing campaign is failing..

[Gollum]

Ok the SPit2 thing...:) I think it should just be working as it should along with the 109..atm its not, its working too good or the 109 isnt good enough..whatever

Ok

you say you wanted to climb but you set your RPM to 2400?..why? You wont outclimb anything setting your RPM to 2400...you can have your RPM at 2800 if you like but if your Prop isnt cutting into the air and pulling as it should your achieve nothing m8..

Do some experimenting and put your plane in a steady climb using trim...100% throttle and adjust your PP to around the 10-10.30 mark..see what happens..

Have your PP at 12o clock and RPM at 2400 if your stall fighting or have got yourself low and slow but not from moving at speed which i guess you were...?

It was in the flight manual under "climb". It stated the proper prop pitch for climbing in a 109 was 2400 RPM. I've not had a problem using this until now but I'll keep messing around with it. What RPM do you find the best for climbing? It's like going uphill on MTB. thought low gear would be optimal but I could be wrong.

[Madfish]

~S~

Well having servers that fit in with what your saying as long as we still have our Co-Op FR mission based servers which im sure repka n ATAG will provide with more n more detail once things are easier to play with mission building wise and more importantly work..

As you say have your plane against plane server and indeed it would be a 'dog'fighting server...nothing more

Sry 'arcade' wasnt putting across what i meant ;)

True - and also the way the new IL-2 CloD works now I believe is this: There is NO "mode" anymore. No dogfight, no co-op, no single player campaign or multiplayer campaign or dynamic campaign etc. It can all be done on the map based on scripting. Offline or online.

So essentially I'm wondering why there is this single limitation (or maybe I'm wrong and it could be done) left, not allowing to have all planes available for all sides.

If this limitation fell it'd open a lot of possibilities. Not only fair dogfights but also cool stuff like a mission where the goal is to raid an airport, land a "bomber" (5 people or so) and capture enemy fighters, tyring to bring them back home just to get attacked by a fighter wing that want's to prevent this.

So yeah, I think everyone would benefit. The people who always bicker about FM and "overpowered planes" could finally fight it out on fair grounds. The rest would have more options regarding co-op style missions. Win-Win situation I believe. :-P

[Ze-Jamz]

It was in the flight manual under "climb". It stated the proper prop pitch for climbing in a 109 was 2400 RPM. I've not had a problem using this until now but I'll keep messing around with it. What RPM do you find the best for climbing? It's like going uphill on MTB. thought low gear would be optimal but I could be wrong.

It all depends on speed mate, but the manual maybe right but not correct to what we have in game ;)

When your cruising out to get Alt, adjust your PP and keep an eye on your speed, your be very surprised at certain heights...You automatically assume lower engine tone/revs slows you down when climbing..not always the case

~S~

[TomcatViP]

a mission where the goal is to raid an airport, land a "bomber" (5 people or so) and capture enemy fighters, tyring to bring them back home just to get attacked by a fighter wing that want's to prevent this.

So yeah, I think everyone would benefit. :-P

Personally I dislike this scenario. Even if it is creative enough to say the least it might not fit the majority of players expectation.

C'mon this sim is all abt BoB. Tht's breathtaking enough !

But we might need proper historical scenarii with stream of bombers flying toward En and a bunch of brave men blasting their way toward them. Not very sophisticated but I give my word on that !

[Ataros]

One other thing, I think Ataros mentioned, is there is possibly a way to limit the amounts of certain types of planes? Through FBDj you could do that so if you say only 5 spitIIa's can be in the air at once, only 5 ever be spawned. We need that type of control to be able to limit certain aircraft for balance as well.

Hi!
If your team has a C# programmer I can give him some links on it. There was a mission posted on the forums where some aircraft were limited. IIRC the online Dunkirk mission.

@ ALL
Guys I believe some people from finest squadrons are reading this thread. Could you please fly some tests in quick 4 vs. 4 or 6 vs. 6 missions at 4000 to 6000 m. with airstart at the same alt. close enough to save flighttime? SpitII vs. E4, squadron vs. squadron, 10% fuel for instance.

I know that recording a track online results in timeout in 10-15 minutes but you can have an extra non-flying person recording it and the fights will probably be very short like 5 minutes and will not lead to timeout. I am sure server admins and everyone else will be interested to watch results as recorded tracks or videos.

Load 100% mineshells, make some big holes in Spits' wings and see how they perform afterwards. I do not know what the result will be and that is why asking you for tests. The results are important to get an idea on balance for some future projects like online wars as well as for current planesets on servers.

I used to fly 4 FW-190 vs. 4 La-5FN in my squad trainings and that was hard on 190 side but we had lots of fun.

If anyone has enough active people (4-6) in a squad and enough courage to take the challenge please discuss details here.

[Ze-Jamz]

Hi!
If your team has a C# programmer I can give him some links on it. There was a mission posted on the forums where some aircraft were limited. IIRC the online Dunkirk mission.

@ ALL
Guys I believe some people from finest squadrons are reading this thread. Could you please fly some tests in quick 4 vs. 4 or 6 vs. 6 missions at 4000 to 6000 m. with airstart at the same alt. close enough to save flighttime? SpitII vs. E4, squadron vs. squadron, 10% fuel for instance.

I know that recording a track online results in timeout in 10-15 minutes but you can have an extra non-flying person recording it and the fights will probably be very short like 5 minutes and will not lead to timeout. I am sure server admins and everyone else will be interested to watch results as recorded tracks or videos.

Load 100% mineshells, make some big holes in Spits' wings and see how they perform afterwards. I do not know what a result will be and that is why asking you for a tests. The results are important to get an idea on balance for some future projects like online wars as well as for current planesets on servers.

I used to fly 4 FW-190 vs. 4 La-5FN in my squad trainings and that was hard on 190 side but we had lots fun.

If anyone has enough active people (4-6) in a squad and enough courage to take the challenge please discuss details here.

I would be part of it if need be but I cannot get my squad members involved as they are in the process of building new rigs/testing/upgrades etc to run this game well

[MoGas]

I would be able to fly 109 or Spit, if needed for a test...

[Ze-Jamz]

Well Ive just been messing around in a dogfight server...

You have to be very very fast when BnZ a Spit who knows your there, they can turn and climb back on your 6 without loosing hardly any E...its quite laughable to be honest...I actually join them as otherwise its just a waste of time flying

[David198502]

well i was just online.and yeah its really hard for the bfs now.if the spits see you, then you hardly have a chance even with alt advantage.they outclimb,outdive you really fast, not to mention that they outturn you.
boom and zoom is a bit a problem too, because of the white dots the planes have now.its not really possible to identify the planes from a certain distance.but even when you are lucky and dive to the right plane, you better aim good with you mineshells, or they will quickly be on you six.

[Ze-Jamz]

well i was just online.and yeah its really hard for the bfs now.if the spits see you, then you hardly have a chance even with alt advantage.they outclimb,outdive you really fast, not to mention that they outturn you.
boom and zoom is a bit a problem too, because of the white dots the planes have now.its not really possible to identify the planes from a certain distance.but even when you are lucky and dive to the right plane, you better aim good with you mineshells, or they will quickly be on you six.

Im not enjoying it as much as I was now...Not cuz its not as easy but the flights are more boring now...I have to stay hign n fast and not get down at all, if i do and a spit2 is around I have to be very lucky to escape alive..

Now i understand that if i want to fly like that then i would of took a 190 before in Il2 but.. what do you do here exactly? If Spits dont come high then youve got a boring night in front of you, then if they do...fair play getting away :)

[David198502]

+1

[Gollum]

Well Ive just been messing around in a dogfight server...

You have to be very very fast when BnZ a Spit who knows your there, they can turn and climb back on your 6 without loosing hardly any E...its quite laughable to be honest...I actually join them as otherwise its just a waste of time flying

AAAAHAAAH!!... ;)So maybe what I was saying before has some merrit. You sure it was a spitII. I haven't been able to gain or maintain the alt advantage after the patch no matter what i'm up against. (only 2 occurances but it is out of 2 flights)

I need to keep practicing online to be sure but I have a feeling somethings changed in the FMs.

[Winger]

Well Ive just been messing around in a dogfight server...

You have to be very very fast when BnZ a Spit who knows your there, they can turn and climb back on your 6 without loosing hardly any E...its quite laughable to be honest...I actually join them as otherwise its just a waste of time flying

to the point.

Today (before i lost the fun so quickly like every day since the patch and the people started to add IIas to the maps) i flew on one of the channelmapservers and met BKHZ Furbs there. I had more than 1000m height advantage and dived down VERY fast. I managed to hit him once. I was able to make 2 or 3 more dives before he had height. The game ended pretty much with me flying around below him not able to do anything but avoid his hits all the time. Trying to run would have just made me a steadier target so i kept scissoring and turning below him. It ended with us colliding. If it s the same Furbs i know from ROF than i know he knows that it was just way too easy to dominate me like that all the time. It really felt like he was flying circles around me. I mean thats just wrong.

Winger

[Cataplasma]

And what about Cant Z 1007? There were a lot of them over britain on 11/11/1940

[furbs]

Yep Winger, i was testing the spit2 for myself and your first burst put a huge hole in my right wing and damaged my engine, though i was still able to climb up to you and equal the energy state and from then on it was easy to turn tables and keep trying for shots on you. i know your a good pilot Winger and it felt far too easy, if i had more practice (im a blue pilot) then it would of been over much quicker...even with my damaged spit.

The spit2 leaves the 109 with nothing to do...it cant climb,dive,run or turn with the spit2.

[JG52Krupi]

Yep Winger, i was testing the spit2 for myself and your first burst put a huge hole in my right wing and damaged my engine, though i was still able to climb up to you and equal the energy state and from then on it was easy to turn tables and keep trying for shots on you. i know your a good pilot Winger and it felt far too easy, if i had more practice (im a blue pilot) then it would of been over much quicker...even with my damaged spit.

The spit2 leaves the 109 with nothing to do...it cant climb,dive,run or turn with the spit2.

Its no too bad on ATAG server Bliss has moved back the spits to Maidenhead but he wasn't aware that the Luftwaffe had placed a Mythical being that pulls spits mk2s into the nearest forest by there tails and consumes them!!! At present only 10% of them make it off the ground.

On a postive note the teams are becoming a bit more even now it was only 23 109's against 12 spits :rolleyes: I am glad that you (Furbs) and Tree (Blue Pilots) at least have the grace to even the teams.

[TomcatViP]

Damn show-off Spit driver. They forget all abt the whole world and the RaF :rolleyes:

Hurri ! there is Hurricanes flying on red side !!! :evil:;)

[conio]

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?
...
...
I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.


I agree 100% with this. Something was changed (for bad) on the 109, all models.

[Blackdog_kt]

Well I finally got shot down by a human flown Spit tonight for the first time. First of all a big thumbs up to the pilot as I met him at 3000 metres! He had a bit of an advantage to start as I had to climb and turn to get on him to ID him first.

I managed to keep him in front of my nose for a few turns back and forth by doing some high yo yos. I got some MG shots on him first from a distance and saw him streaming coolant. So I thought I had this Spit 2 under control. He then went into a dive and I climbed a bit to wait for him to come up again below me.

So I'm expecting him to zoom back up and slow down below me as I've been spiral climbing. Nah he zoomed up and not only that, he did a hard turn whilst climbing and got some shots that knocked out part of my engine and my radiators! Now he was co alt with me and still hauling. You can actually gain altitude by diving and zooming up again but this was very unexpected.

I then did a helpless power dive to get away but my craft was a bit of a mess, I did some bunts and reverses and managed to get an overshoot but he turned on a dime and was right back on my tail. Engine shot to pieces, canopy off and out for a swim in the channel.

It's official I'm scared of the Spit MKII that thing is mean! In the right hands it's an almost impossible match for the 109. Salute to the pilot too, it wasn't just the plane.

Sounds just like flying 190s back in IL2, down low it's full of better turning and better climbing planes, if you go a bit higher to BnZ them there are other faster planes higher up that BnZ you.

/me runs :-P


On a serious note, i think the issue is not balance or historical accuracy on their own, because absolute balance is unrealistic and absolute accuracy is impossible. I think the issue is balance within the constraints of historical accuracy, but in the wider scheme of things, ie how the battles tend to play out:

A planeset with more or less equally undermodeled flyables results in a somewhat accurate portrayal of the way the engagements historically played out, because the "gaps" between the capabilities of each aircraft remain roughly the same. That's why 109s vs Hurris and Spit Is worked until now, they are all undermodeled to a certain extent.

A planeset with these same, equally undermodeled flyables and a single, properly modeled flyable does not play out like that, because there is now a huge gap between it and the other aircraft types.


The FM might be off, but if an ingame Hurri does 250mph and the 109 does 270, while a real Hurri did 300mph and the 109 did 320 (numbers are not accurate, i'm just illustrating a point here), it's still a 20mph performance gap in both cases and the way the fight plays out will be close to what historically tended to happen.

In other words, to have accurately evolving fights you don't necessarily need 100% accurate FMs, what you need is accuracy in performance differences between types. It's precisely this aspect which the Spit II messes up, because currently it's the only non-undermodeled fighter in the sim (or the least undermodeled): no single fighter during the BoB had a 100km/h airspeed advantage over its contemporaries.

;)

[trumps]

I found the solution to the Spit !!a problem, gettem before they take off, or as they land, it's just like the germans an their Me 262's later on in the war, you have to get them at their most vunerable, if they want to use them then they will have to protect them ;) Btw i normally don't vulch, not that i have a problem with it, but extraordinary FM's call for extraordinary tactics LOL!

Craig

[trumps]

Lol, all good, I just spawned that to see if there were spots that didn't start on a hill. Got in the cockpit and heard that beautiful DB601 whine coming and dammit if you didn't start firing! =)

sorry bout that LOL, did i PK you? i always try to get the pilot because he is the naughty boy who wants to fly the evil MkIIa spaceship ;) the 601 does sound special when someone beats up the field with a 109 doesn't it :)

you did get a couple of hits on me as i made that headon pass, i was getting a bit cheeky!

Craig

[TomcatViP]

IMHO the 109 and Hurri FM are far from being under modeled.

In a Hurri I hve no prob to dash deck at 290mph. 500kph in a 109.

Of course the 109 at alt>5km is sluggish and seems underpowered (but again mind that you need to spin out the Compressor to get some "ata"). But as this has been alrdy discussed before I won't add any further comments here on that subject.

Yeah the spit is over modeled but not in the sense that her perfs are superior but more that she has no FM at all. It's a spacecraft out of nowhere with no E losses drag etc.. etc...

But thx to the intense lobbying of some alrdy named any spit matter has become a mess to discuss. What an irony for a plane that symbolize the freedom of speech !

The greatest ill-advised choice that CoD is facing now wld be to level up the perf of the excellent Hurri an 109 models to compete with that of the thing - ie the in-game Spit. Then we will slip out of any RL ground. A gap that will widen more and more as they add later war plane (see what has happened with Il2 and the Supersonic Late war "planes" (47, 190D, 25lb, mkIII ...)

You hve just read this and want to help out ? BAN the THING ! Leave her in the hangar until it has been re-worked appropriately.

[trumps]

i know that flying the 109 against the Rotol Hurri, or the 1a spit i need to stick to the plan to stay on top, if i get lured into their style of fighting then i am in a world of hurt. apart from the IIa none of the others has a massive performance advantage that guarentees success no matter what situation you enter the combat in barring being bounced and pk'ed on the first pass!
i shot up a IIa as it took off this morning, it was streaming coolant from both wings with gaping holes to boot, there were flames and smoke pouring out of the engine and it was still climbing up and trying to pull lead on me for a good 3
minutes before it went down, it wasn't dodgy AI highjinx this was on the ATAG server. any other plane with that amount of damage would have been lucky to manage a successfull belly landing let alone continue to fight.

Craig

[David198502]

IMHO the 109 and Hurri FM are far from being under modeled.

In a Hurri I hve no prob to dash deck at 290mph. 500kph in a 109.

Of course the 109 at alt>5km is sluggish and seems underpowered (but again mind that you need to spin out the Compressor to get some "ata"). But as this has been alrdy discussed before I won't add any further comments here on that subject.

Yeah the spit is over modeled but not in the sense that her perfs are superior but more that she has no FM at all. It's a spacecraft out of nowhere with no E losses drag etc.. etc...

But thx to the intense lobbying of some alrdy named any spit matter has become a mess to discuss. What an irony for a plane that symbolize the freedom of speech !

The greatest ill-advised choice that CoD is facing now wld be to level up the perf of the excellent Hurri an 109 models to compete with that of the thing - ie the in-game Spit. Then we will slip out of any RL ground. A gap that will widen more and more as they add later war plane (see what has happened with Il2 and the Supersonic Late war "planes" (47, 190D, 25lb, mkIII ...)

You hve just read this and want to help out ? BAN the THING ! Leave her in the hangar until it has been re-worked appropriately.

500kph in level flight with the 109???well how do you achieve that??without boost, the 109 im flying, only reaches 450 in level flight...with boost 470-480kph.

spin out the comressor to get some ata???you cant control the compressor in the 109 or am i wrong?

[TomcatViP]

slight dive until 500+kph then level and there you go !

Spin out the comp wheel by over-revving slightly the rpm (this need to fine the prop pitch a little bit more than what you want to let the rpm raise and then get some better boost before reaching an equilibrium)

@Trumps : To shake out a Hurri : pull G : it can't follow or it will depart.

Use your far sup roll-rate at certain speed. The roll rate of the Hurri is poor at most of the speed range.

Pls don't overload your ammo belt with the maritime mine that we've got with that Patch - I guess they borrowed the WM from Silent Hunter ;)

[David198502]

"Spin out the comp wheel by over-revving slightly the rpm (this need to fine the prop pitch a little bit more than what you want to let the rpm raise and then get some better boost before reaching an equilibrium)"

sorry tomcat, but could you please explain that in other words...i just dont understand what you are saying.

[Ze-Jamz]

"Spin out the comp wheel by over-revving slightly the rpm (this need to fine the prop pitch a little bit more than what you want to let the rpm raise and then get some better boost before reaching an equilibrium)"

sorry tomcat, but could you please explain that in other words...i just dont understand what you are saying.

Hmm, me niether..

I can understand the logic behind that and how i would/can do that in a supercharged/turbo'd car but is that even possible in game? :rolleyes:

[TomcatViP]

Let's say that you are cruising at alt >5km and want to add some power.

Since your are cruising your eng regime is low with low rpm <2000 and ata <1 (probably 0,8) .

When you push the throttle, you'll see that your eng won't react as much as you want with the boost raising only a little as the eng torque is not strong enough to balance the torque of the prop with the amount of air it can ingest at the moment.

In that situation lowering the prop pitch will lower the torque needed to spin the prop giving the eng more torque to raise the (eng) rpm. Once the eng rpm start raising, the compressor can spin up the compressor wheel that will deliver more air in the cylinder.

More air, more fuel, more torque, more power -> the speed increase up to a point that you have a new balance. Obviously once the "ata" & the speed raise you need to coarse back slightly the prop pitch monitoring closely those 3 values (the position of the throttle, the boost level and the rpm gauges).

Note that there is no spectacular results to expect from this but still you'll get some better result and will raise your op ceiling in the beast

~S!

[trumps]

Tomcat, I don't have a problem against either the Hurri or the 1 and 1a spits, I just don't turnfight fullstop, I also don't use the mineshells as I fly the E-1. I tried the e-4 out when I initially downloaded the patch but quickly returned to my old faithful, I still think the E-1 is the best 109 of the ones in game, it suits my style anyway! The only plane I can't combat is the IIa unless I catch him totally unaware.

Craig

[trumps]

Ze-Jamz, and David, you can still comapare it to driving a car, think like this, you are cruising in your car at 100kph in 5th gear at 2000rpm, you want to overtake someone you can just stamp on the gas and wait for the engine to get higher in the rev range where it makes most power, or you can downshift to 4th, which will put the engine Into it's powerband so to speak and accelerate quicker, eventually you will still have to change back into 5th but you will be going faster at this stage and the engine will already be near it's peak. Most engine types develop their peak at around 2/3- 3/4 of their max revs.

Craig

[David198502]

Let's say that you are cruising at alt >5km and want to add some power.

Since your are cruising your eng regime is low with low rpm <2000 and ata <1 (probably 0,8) .

When you push the throttle, you'll see that your eng won't react as much as you want with the boost raising only a little as the eng torque is not strong enough to balance the torque of the prop with the amount of air it can ingest at the moment.

In that situation lowering the prop pitch will lower the torque needed to spin the prop giving the eng more torque to raise the (eng) rpm. Once the eng rpm start raising, the compressor can spin up the compressor wheel that will deliver more air in the cylinder.

More air, more fuel, more torque, more power -> the speed increase up to a point that you have a new balance. Obviously once the "ata" & the speed raise you need to coarse back slightly the prop pitch monitoring closely those 3 values (the position of the throttle, the boost level and the rpm gauges).

Note that there is no spectacular results to expect from this but still you'll get some better result and will raise your op ceiling in the beast

~S!

dont you mean increase the proppitch???at least on the gauge its an increase of it.
when do i know that i overreved the engine enough??
i observed, that when i go from level flight into a climb, and increase the prop pitch(meaning going from 10 to eleven o clock on the gauge) there comes the point, where suddenly the ata pressure decreases slightly the more i increase the prop pitch......is that the point where i should stop increasing the pp?

is it advisable to maintain the highest possible ata pressure all the time?


meaning in combat situation, i mainly fly with full throttle and only adjust the pp.through change of the prop pitch, the pressure changes as well, ....
so if i maintain 1,325ata with full throttle...would that be the way to go????

[TomcatViP]

Seems there is some weirds thing there (I am back on topic :spit)

I did some lazy cubans eight among some spits deck (clnt' see them) at a 450/480 kph average and as soon as one see me and took my 6 (cldn't see him before he was there) I was unable to pass 415.

I guess there is the suc*** cheat back on server (the one that pull you backward once your in the visor of those aces).

Dav I will answer later I just feel disgusted for now.

~S

[Winger]

Seems there is some weirds thing there (I am back on topic :spit)

I did some lazy cubans eight among some spits deck (clnt' see them) at a 450/480 kph average and as soon as one see me and took my 6 (cldn't see him before he was there) I was unable to pass 415.

I guess there is the suc*** cheat back on server (the one that pull you backward once your in the visor of those aces).

Dav I will answer later I just feel disgusted for now.

~S

If you fly a Spitfire IIa then you dont need a cheat. This plane IS a cheat.
Again. All serverhosters please ban this developers joke from the servers until either the other planes their performance raised or this ones is lowered.

Winger

[ElAurens]

OMG.

The one aircrat that is properly modeled and you all take the pi**.

And you think I have an agenda?

LOL.

[trumps]

the problem is, if it is properly modeled it has no place amongst every thing else that is improperly modeled. would you rather they get rid of all the undermodeled planes and both sides just use the IIa? Wake up ElAurens!!!

Craig

[JG5_emil]

"The first recorded Mk II being shot down was with 611 Squadron on September 11th 1940. "

The Spit II shouldn't be the representative aircraft for the RAF in BOB servers. It was a late entry and most of those produced weren't used during the BOB.

[Osprey]

That is what i said.... leave the spit II out and put in Spits Ias and hurris. This is a very good matchup with the current FMs. AND it equates history since the Spit IIa was not present in BOB in significant numbers. I am no historican but i read that numerous times now and take it to be true.

Winger


So will you start a similar thread when the rotol props + 100 octane fuel are added? tbh mate I've not been flying COD purely because I got fed up with too many times there were 109's parked over the airfield vulching and frankly, after warming up an engine I couldn't be arsed with it so went to fly RoF instead. I imagine that this was mainly down to the imbalance toward LW due to the missing Rotol Spits and LW desperately seeking opponents perhaps? It's no surprise that servers put in the IIa once LW got am even better aircraft.

JG53Frankie had it right in the first page - wrong planes and bad FM's to start.

109E1 & E4 vs
Rotol Spit I and Hurricane I, get the FM's right from the off and you have a game to build from, starting with the AI for them.

When the day comes that I can escape a 109 with a tight steep climbing turn, particularly to the left, and that he can escape me by pushing the nose hard down (I would expect him to pull away due to weight too), then I will be much happier. Real pilots on both sides admitted this. I would really like to see Allied and Axis fliers unite and come to some concensus with 1C over getting these models right - not to balance the online game - instead of the constant bickering because they suddenly find things a lot harder than they used to.

PS, Winger - Pupo162 is a 109 bumlicker, always has been so you're well out of line, particularly with the insult.

[whoarmongar]

Theres an Elephant in this room.
The plain fact is this
The Mk1a should have the rotol prop
Instead spitty flyers have to put up with that godawful 1st gear/ 5th gear prop.
Or fly the Hurricane
As present FM the Mk1a is 30mph slower and doesnt climb as well as the rotol Hurricane
But the Hurricane roll rate is terrible 360* roll takes 2 secs longer than the spitfire,and the spitfire rolls slower than the me109 anyway.

So with slower top speed, poorer climb,slower dive, inferior roll rate, poorer guns, lots less amunition and that infernal neg g cutout combined with the 109`s easier controlability in turns is it any surprise red players want to fly the Mk1I on the servers ? Especially since the blueboys have some new toys.
But the MkII is 60 mph faster than the Mk1a.

So what is really needed is a MK1a with a rotol prop.

The speeds I quote are from a very quick test in mission. straight and level @ 6500 ft

Mk1a 230mph

Rotol Hurri 260mph

MkII 290mph.

This admittedly quick test is obviously not entirely accurate, but feel about right from my time playing online.

[David198502]

So will you start a similar thread when the rotol props + 100 octane fuel are added? tbh mate I've not been flying COD purely because I got fed up with too many times there were 109's parked over the airfield vulching and frankly, after warming up an engine I couldn't be arsed with it so went to fly RoF instead. I imagine that this was mainly down to the imbalance toward LW due to the missing Rotol Spits and LW desperately seeking opponents perhaps? It's no surprise that servers put in the IIa once LW got am even better aircraft.

JG53Frankie had it right in the first page - wrong planes and bad FM's to start.

109E1 & E4 vs
Rotol Spit I and Hurricane I, get the FM's right from the off and you have a game to build from, starting with the AI for them.

When the day comes that I can escape a 109 with a tight steep climbing turn, particularly to the left, and that he can escape me by pushing the nose hard down (I would expect him to pull away due to weight too), then I will be much happier. Real pilots on both sides admitted this. I would really like to see Allied and Axis fliers unite and come to some concensus with 1C over getting these models right - not to balance the online game - instead of the constant bickering because they suddenly find things a lot harder than they used to.

PS, Winger - Pupo162 is a 109 bumlicker, always has been so you're well out of line, particularly with the insult.

+1

i want the flight models as accurate as possible.
...even if it would result in a disadvantage for me.

i think in real life,...the battle of britain had pretty equal oponents on both sides.all i have read states that it was mainly the skill of the pilot that effected the outcome of a fight.so give us the proper performances for all planes please

[ElAurens]

Well said Osprey.

BTW long before the game was even released our lads decided to fly the Hurricane, as it was the aircraft that really won the Battle of Britain.

When I'm online the only aircraft you see me in will be the Rotol Hurricane, at least until we get a flyable Gladiator or CR 42. I would like to pop over to one of the evaluation units and nick one of the Tomahawks that were destined for France though...

[TomcatViP]

When the day comes that I can escape a 109 with a tight steep climbing turn, particularly to the left, and that he can escape me by pushing the nose hard down (I would expect him to pull away due to weight too), then I will be much happier. Real pilots on both sides admitted this.


I am sry Osp but all of the above are myth hence wrong. It has been discussed and explained all over and over - not by me but by historians.

Regarding weights, do you really think that a modern design such as was the 109 was heavier than a tube and framework Hurri or an heavy riveted with a thousands of bulkheads Spit ?

That's were we hve to understand how braves and well commanded was the BoB RAF's men. The odds were clearly in favor of the brutal Hitler's regime but they have prevailed.

We hve the chance to re-enact those glory days for our own pleasures without any fear of blood, sweet and tears being shed. I wonder why some still have to turn history upside down.

As there is no diff btw a blue player and a red player If you want to fly the better fighter in the fray of that very specific times that's plain simple SWITCH to BLUE !

PS: As I ave said alrdy IMHO the only good FM btw the Hurri, 109 and spits are the Hurri and the 109. That wld be a non-sense to start modifying both their FM to fit that of the surreal Spits

[SEE]

CloD is now attracting more on-line players which is welcomed by all.

The one positive I see from the introduction of the Mk2 Spit is that it created controversy and highlighted the problems of the underperfoming ac. Its a shame that it ends up being divisive but in a way that may help to get this issue resolved.

I really hope that the Russian forums are having this same argument and that Luthier and his team are considering a fix as a priority.

We now have a title that works reasonably well in SP, attracting more players on MP but well and truly stuffed with undermodelled (or incorrectly) modelled ac.

How difficult would it be to at least add the correct prop to a Mk1a and get that out in the next official patch?

[TomcatViP]

This is wrong. pls see the above.

To reach max perfs you need to fight hard on your aircraft ctrls and eng management. It might take some time to be pro-efficient but that the way it is [was :rolleyes:] and I find that great.

[Winger]

To all of you guys. I know the FM´s of Spit Ia and hurri are just as messed as the one of the 109. My only concern is that the spit IIa outclasses the 109 to a degree that makes flying for the blue team totally pointleass except when you are a masochistic person that likes to get banged.
I know people online that do VERY well in their hurricane against the 109. I mean fighting a good hurri pilot in a 109 on even energylevels is a real challenge for a good 109 pilot. Each side has its strengths wich, when used properly, lead you to a victory.
I also admit that the spit Ia is too slow but the Spit IIa just makes it totally pointless. So i dont say nerf it or anything. I just say use a planecombo that actually works well in multiplayer. Nothing else,

Winger

PS: And to 1C i say: Please fix those 109s, spitfire Is and were all good.

[VO101_Tom]

To all of you guys. I know the FM´s of Spit Ia and hurri are just as messed as the one of the 109. My only concern is that the spit IIa outclasses the 109 to a degree that makes flying for the blue team totally pointleass except when you are a masochistic person that likes to get banged.
I know people online that do VERY well in their hurricane against the 109. I mean fighting a good hurri pilot in a 109 on even energylevels is a real challenge for a good 109 pilot. Each side has its strengths wich, when used properly, lead you to a victory.
I also admit that the spit Ia is too slow but the Spit IIa just makes it totally pointless. So i dont say nerf it or anything. I just say use a planecombo that actually works well in multiplayer. Nothing else,

Winger

PS: And to 1C i say: Please fix those 109s, spitfire Is and were all good.

Why? Both are capable of 350. The Spit is mph, the Messer is km/h. what's the problem? :grin:

Who is experienced in on-line flying may not say sincerely that Spit IIa is an identical category with any of the other airplanes. Because of this, it should be ignored on the serious servers. :rolleyes:

[Jugdriver]

The Spit II shouldn't be the representative aircraft for the RAF in BOB servers. It was a late entry and most of those produced weren't used during the BOB.

Wrong, it was in sercive during all of the BOB and made of 40% of the Spitfires at the end of the BOB.


JD
AKA_MattE

[Jugdriver]

I am sry Osp but all of the above are myth hence wrong. It has been discussed and explained all over and over - not by me but by historians.

We hve the chance to re-enact those glory days for our own pleasures without any fear of blood, sweet and tears being shed. I wonder why some still have to turn history upside down.

As there is no diff btw a blue player and a red player If you want to fly the better fighter in the fray of that very specific times that's plain simple SWITCH to BLUE

This may be true in your version of history, but the idea that the 109 was a superior aircraft to the Spitfire is not true, they were very evenly matched during the BOB.

The lamest part of this discussion is not the fact that the Spit II is overmodeld, (which it is) It is that some on this thread think this is a great opportunity to talk out of their a$$ in terms of the performance differences of these aircraft and whether the Spit II should be part of this time frame (which it should). Hence the ONGOING SpitfireUFO vs. Luffiewiner argument continues.

How about just shut up and fly.


JD
AKA_MattE

[ElAurens]

the fact that the Spit II is overmodeld, (which it is)
JD
AKA_MattE

Actually it isn't, the other aircraft are undermodeled. This is the problem.

Just to clarify.

[Winger]

... they were very evenly matched during the BOB. [/B]

JD
AKA_MattE

With that you pretty much agree to what i say. Since the Spit IIa we have in game totally outclasses the 109 we have in game the only true solution is to leave it out.

Winger

[41Sqn_Banks]

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7163/suddenlyspitfires.jpg (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/suddenly-x-thousands-of-them)

[TomcatViP]

This may be true in your version of history, but the idea that the 109 was a superior aircraft to the Spitfire is not true, they were very evenly matched during the BOB.

The lamest part of this discussion is not the fact that the Spit II is overmodeld, (which it is) It is that some on this thread think this is a great opportunity to talk out of their a$$ in terms of the performance differences of these aircraft and whether the Spit II should be part of this time frame (which it should). Hence the ONGOING SpitfireUFO vs. Luffiewiner argument continues.

How about just shut up and fly.


JD
AKA_MattE


Yeah here it goes again : the great gentlemen with the fine sense of history and impeccable sciences knowledge thinking that the glory of the past are their own property and insulting who the hell are not lined with their miserable wisdom.

Seems we have seen that alrdy :evil:::(:-x

By the way "Superior" is not a term I wld hve use. That tells a lot...

[Jugdriver]

Yeah here it goes again : the great gentlemen with the fine sense of history and impeccable sciences knowledge thinking that the glory of the past are their own property and insulting who the hell are not lined with their miserable wisdom.



Yes, Tomcat exactly what you are doing, nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black.

Winger, I am not saying it should be in the plane set, I am saying that peoples personal agendas about whether the Spit II was in the BOB or that the 109 was better than the Spitfire during the BOB is not what should be discussed, does it belong in the servers with its present FM is the question. I see Bliss has already changed his server.

JD
AKA_MattE

[VO101_Tom]

...
Winger, I am not saying it should be in the plane set, I am saying that peoples personal agendas about whether the Spit II was in the BOB or that the 109 was better than the Spitfire during the BOB is not what should be discussed, does it belong in the servers with its present FM is the question. I see Bliss has already changed his server.

JD
AKA_MattE

Who said that the Spitt II isn't the part of BOB? This is bad for a joke. Unambiguously one of the best airplanes of the BOB era. No doubt. It enters service in July, in same month than E-7... wait... what? Do we have E-7? No... oh xxxx.
Anyway, we talk about server planesets, not BOB history.

[IvanK]

Something to try, A relative Performance test On line.

Start On line with a mate. Spit II and 109E4 Level flight close formation at 250Kmh in the weeds. Then Go max power (non WEP non Boost Cutout) at the same time. Keep it going until you max out. Control Eng temps as required with the Rad/s. You might be surprised just how close you still are at the end point. The 109 driver will need to control prop pitch/RPM actively (2300rpm seems to be a good value) and what IAS you both end up with.

Then do the same in a climb test. Start out the same in close formation on the deck, reset altimeters so both of you are using the same setting. In the climb Spit climb at 160MPH, E4 at 250Kmh as these are the respective best ROC speeds for each aircraft. Post results here.

[VO101_Tom]

Something to try, A relative Performance test On line.

Start On line with a mate. Spit II and 109E4 Level flight close formation at 250Kmh in the weeds. Then Go max power (non WEP non Boost Cutout) at the same time. Keep it going until you max out. Control Eng temps as required with the Rad/s. You might be surprised just how close you still are at the end point. The 109 driver will need to control prop pitch/RPM actively (2300rpm seems to be a good value) and what IAS you both end up with.

Then do the same in a climb test. Start out the same in close formation on the deck, reset altimeters so both of you are using the same setting. In the climb Spit climb at 160MPH, E4 at 250Kmh as these are the respective best ROC speeds for each aircraft. Post results here.

Hi. I made a small test, straight flying, sea level.
Spit IIa top speed without boost: 280 mph (450.6 km/h), with boost (no time limit) 310 mph (498.9 km/h)
109 E-4 top speed with 1.32 ata: 430 km/h, with (afterburner) 1.42 ata (1 min limit) 440 km/h*
109 E-3 top speed with 1.35 ata: 430 km/h, with (afterburner) 1.45 ata (1 min limit) 450 km/h* (E3 is faster :rolleyes:)

I don't understand why would it necessary to do the test without a boost, when i flew more than half hour (Spit IIa, full throttle, half open radiator, sea level) without an any kind of trouble.

Please open this page, look at the first chart:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
E-1 should reach the 300 mph (482.8 km/h) on sea level. The E-3 were being built with stronger engine already. DB 601 Aa (+72HP) instead DB 601 A-1.
This according to you surprisingly nearly?

*
Another thing: Please look at this chart:
The "start und notleistung" (call it "afterburner" in CloD) increase the performance with 200 PS (this considerable plus 20% performance the reason of the time limitation), but in CloD it causes only 3% speed acceleration. Compared to Spitfire: Boost causes 10.7% acceleration (30 mph). I do not know the correct values of the Merlin engines, but looking at the proportions... well... what do you think?
http://www.enginehistory.org/German/DB/Chart01.jpg
(source: www.enginehistory.org (http://www.enginehistory.org/German/daimler-benz.shtml))

[Hellbender]

VO101_Tom made a good point. So far while playing online, I took Bliss´s advice for high alt combat to an experiment and flew around at +4000m altitude. My results were inconclusive since it was hard to find any opposition in shape of Spit IIs or 109 E-4s over ENgland and France. After having askedd people why they fly mostly between sea level and 2000m, they answered that there is nothing interesting up there and therefore it was so darn hard to find any opposition at high altitude. People said, when they wanna bomb ships, they can do that from "relatively" low altitude and when they just look for trouble they gonna strafe planes landing or taking off at the opposing airfields.

My suggestion, in order to drag more people into a historic correct and realistic altitude to observe how Spit II vs 109 performs at high altitude, I would say, remove the ships and add large bomber streams between France and England at 4000 to 6000m so that people find their targets up their. Whenever you wanna seek a dogfight you can protect your own bombers or hunt the enemy bombers. Alternatively, one can still bomb the enemy airfields, but the high alt. "pulks of bombers" (somewhere between 10 and 20 in numbers) should be the more tempting targets.
This would be an idea to focus dogfights higher in the skies, where the aformentiond handling of energy gets more important, even for the plane with a bit less overall speed performance.

[VO101_Tom]

The ATAG server has already implemented that idea, except they still have ships for the bomber guys. Even then, most people prefer to hunt players, not AI, and there's a lot of vulching. Both of these keep the fights down low.

Besides, most of the planes are atrocious at 5k+, by the time you reach 6k, you already need flaps or tons of up elevator trim. 5k feels like 8k.

Good thing if the bombers flying high. But the AFB's low protection would be important. Would not be worth it then to fly low above the other coast.

[Ze-Jamz]

Fellas, everyone talks about flying high, these FM's dont perform anywhere near they should at 7k, its no fun flying up there at present..

I would like any planes that flew BoB in the planeset, what i dont want is Any AC that has a massive advantage over the other wether it would be Blue or Red..

forget about whiners and flyboys or whatever the rubbish forum language is everyone uses, if the 109 had that much of an advantage then all the Red pilots would be complaining...on that note a lot of Red pilots are complaining about the Spit2 just like the Blue pilots..

The servers have changed thats for sure, its nearly always one sided now..

Im not sure people like flying ages in the current maps that dont really have missions to get into a dogfight (Spit2) so they just fly Blue, maybe the bases should be put back a bit on both sides to deter vulchers, get it back to Mk1's and Hurris and get rid of that Mk2!... what happening now isnt working..

[Osprey]

I am sry Osp but all of the above are myth hence wrong. It has been discussed and explained all over and over - not by me but by historians.

Regarding weights, do you really think that a modern design such as was the 109 was heavier than a tube and framework Hurri or an heavy riveted with a thousands of bulkheads Spit ?

That's were we hve to understand how braves and well commanded was the BoB RAF's men. The odds were clearly in favor of the brutal Hitler's regime but they have prevailed.

We hve the chance to re-enact those glory days for our own pleasures without any fear of blood, sweet and tears being shed. I wonder why some still have to turn history upside down.

As there is no diff btw a blue player and a red player If you want to fly the better fighter in the fray of that very specific times that's plain simple SWITCH to BLUE !

PS: As I ave said alrdy IMHO the only good FM btw the Hurri, 109 and spits are the Hurri and the 109. That wld be a non-sense to start modifying both their FM to fit that of the surreal Spits


I don't give a hoot what any historian thinks. I care what pilots who fought have said from their accounts. I have lost count of the number of well known pilots who specifically state how they would make a steep climbing turn and watch the 109 stall out. Gunther Rall even said it himself, that you simply couldn't follow them if they made that move. But tbh you've discounted yourself in this discussion already by telling us that the Hurricane Rotol and 109 have good flight models.

[TomcatViP]

I hve learn (the hard way) one thing with the time : the less options you hve, the more aggressively you act.

Draw your own conclusion and stop the insults. Thx in advance

[VO101_Tom]

I don't give a hoot what any historian thinks. I care what pilots who fought have said from their accounts. I have lost count of the number of well known pilots who specifically state how they would make a steep climbing turn and watch the 109 stall out. Gunther Rall even said it himself, that you simply couldn't follow them if they made that move. But tbh you've discounted yourself in this discussion already by telling us that the Hurricane Rotol and 109 have good flight models.

Hi. The memories from an technical history viewpoint unfortunately inaccurate sources. Subjective, and unknown circumstances of the situations. I read on more test results, that 5% the measurement margin of error. It is very much. Imagine how large an the margin of error, if they give an opinion based on feelings only? A couple of counterexamples that what you wrote:

"Me 109 E:
"When put into a full throttle climb at low air speeds, the airplane climbed at a very steep angle, and our fighters used to have difficulty in keeping their sights on the enemy even when at such a height that their rates of climb were comparible. This steep climb at low air speed was one of the standard evasion maneuvres used by the German pilots."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.
edit: The rear airplane is in a disadvantage always. It would be necessary to pull the airplane above a critical AoA to be able to shoot. If he try, he will stall. This is an old, well-known manoeuvre anyway. Works with identical machines in 1v1 combat too. In fact, does not mean it altogether that the first plane is better

Me 109 E:
"In personally facing the RAF in the air over the Dunkirk encirclement, I found that the Bf 109 E was faster, possessed a higher rate of climb, but was somewhat less manouverable than the RAF fighters."
- Herbert Kaiser, German fighter ace. 68 victories. Source:The Great Book of WW2 Airplanes, page 470.

Me 109 E-4:
"I took a performance climb at 1,15 ATA and 2300 RPM (30 minute limit). A climb speed of 250 kph gave an average rate of climb of 2145 ft/min. Bearing in mind the maximum boost limit of 1,35 ATA the "all out" climb must be impressive."
- Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

source: "Climbing in combat" part of the "Messerschmitt 109 - myths, facts and the view from the cockpit" webpage (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#climbing)

[Ze-Jamz]

Hi. The memories from an technical history viewpoint unfortunately inaccurate sources. Subjective, and unknown circumstances of the situations. I read on more test results, that 5% the measurement margin of error. It is very much. Imagine how large an the margin of error, if they give an opinion based on feelings only? A couple of counterexamples that what you wrote:

"Me 109 E:
"When put into a full throttle climb at low air speeds, the airplane climbed at a very steep angle, and our fighters used to have difficulty in keeping their sights on the enemy even when at such a height that their rates of climb were comparible. This steep climb at low air speed was one of the standard evasion maneuvres used by the German pilots."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.
edit: The rear airplane is in a disadvantage always. It would be necessary to pull the airplane above a critical AoA to be able to shoot. If he try, he will stall. This is an old, well-known manoeuvre anyway. Works with identical machines in 1v1 combat too. In fact, does not mean it altogether that the first plane is better

Me 109 E:
"In personally facing the RAF in the air over the Dunkirk encirclement, I found that the Bf 109 E was faster, possessed a higher rate of climb, but was somewhat less manouverable than the RAF fighters."
- Herbert Kaiser, German fighter ace. 68 victories. Source:The Great Book of WW2 Airplanes, page 470.

Me 109 E-4:
"I took a performance climb at 1,15 ATA and 2300 RPM (30 minute limit). A climb speed of 250 kph gave an average rate of climb of 2145 ft/min. Bearing in mind the maximum boost limit of 1,35 ATA the "all out" climb must be impressive."
- Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

source: "Climbing in combat" part of the "Messerschmitt 109 - myths, facts and the view from the cockpit" webpage (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#climbing)

Mate even without all this documentation...If we are wrong now with the FM's here in CloD then every ww2 sim Ive ever played had it wrong too which is highly unlikely

[TomcatViP]

Jaaaammmmzzz

Don't give us the stick to be beaten !!!

The Spit has been porked since long (CFS ?). But not in the way those guys says.... In the other direction : fantasy, mystification (did I say Spitification ?), complaisance : the ride to outfight everything without any effort (even the hard thing to swivel your head bckward to get a look of what's going on there has been taken away with laaarge mirror and tiny rear fuselage).

Before those time, no one wld hve given a pony or a Fw for Spit... Funny isn't it?

Frankly it's sad to see such poor lobbying on such a mythical [no "S" !!!] ride.

[Ze-Jamz]

Jaaaammmmzzz

Don't give us the stick to be beaten !!!

The Spit has been porked since long (CFS ?). But not in the way those guys says.... In the other direction : fantasy, mystification (did I say Spitification ?), complaisance : the ride to outfight everything without any effort (even the hard thing to swivel your head bckward to get a look of what's going on there has been taken away with laaarge mirror and tiny rear fuselage).

Before those time, no one wld hve given a pony or a Fw for Spit... Funny isn't it?

Frankly it's sad to see such poor lobbying on such a mythical [no "S" !!!] ride.

~S~ TC

No offence m8 but i have no clue what any of that means apart from the rear visibility bit

[gelbevierzehn]

Just flew online and bounced a spit IIa. I shot away the complete right elevator. Even in this condition, it could easily outturn in a vert fight my E4... :grin:

[VO101_Tom]

Mate even without all this documentation...If we are wrong now with the FM's here in CloD then every ww2 sim Ive ever played had it wrong too which is highly unlikely

Do you decide how authentic an original report is based on the programming of a game? Should happen reverse for this in a normal case??? I do not dare to ask it, which simulators you thought of... :grin:

I did not say that the Spitfire aircraft is worse than the 109. What I have written to the contemporary memoir should be treated with caution. I maintain my assertion that the pilots' reports are inaccurate. There are many reasons why the performance of their machines being estimated incorrectly. If he wins, he feels it is likely that his plane was better. Later, you will be reading this everywhere. If he loses ... Well, he does not write books. The German pilot who survived the fighting, wrote the same thing like the English, but from his own standpoint. Now who is right?

If someone makes a simulator, the most accurate documentations the various test reports and manuals. This must be the primary source. If they are shaken some legends... that not the fault of the facts ;)

I read earlier an interview with Kozhedub, it is an interesting detail:
- Reporter: What do you consider to have been the best fighter airplane–regardless of nationality–of World War II?
- Kozhedub: The La-7. I hope you understand why.

...And Oleg made it! \o/
(Here is the whole interview (http://www.historynet.com/aviation-history-interview-with-world-war-ii-soviet-ace-ivan-kozhedub.htm/6))

[Ze-Jamz]

Do you decide how authentic an original report is based on the programming of a game? Should happen reverse for this in a normal case??? I do not dare to ask it, which simulators you thought of... :grin:

Lol, I know what your trying to say but your miles away from what I mean..

You've just stated it yourself, we can only go by what we read, the Devs can only go by what Data they have as every bit of info wrote by pilots is like you've said a bit biased..

Every ww2 Sim I have played, cfs3,ww2ol,il2 and now this have a 109 & spit...now every developer has modelled the spit to turn better and retain 'E' better.. the 109 to dive better and climb better etc etc

That is my point, regardless on what we think, it's been like this since ww2 sims have graced us with their presence yes?

I don't know what's right, who's right, what's accurate and what's false... I go by what I see have read myself and what sim developers have implemented into the games I've played..those basic strengths and weaknesses have always been the same..

So if for some reason now were saying the spit was a better in the dive, the climb and the turn...oh and top speed too then all those diff Devs had it wrong then?

That was all I meant by my comment, thought that was obvious too :)

[TomcatViP]

dont you mean increase the proppitch???at least on the gauge its an increase of it.


The Prop pitch is relative to the angle btw the blade and the propeller disc. The more angle the more propulsive force you generate at each blade revolution. But the more torque your engine has to deliver.

Think of a screw'thread. If the pitch is 1mm per each revolution the screw will travel for 1mm at each revolution in the direction of its main axis . If the thread is 1.25mm then 1 rev = 1.25mm travel distance.

In maths, angles are counted positively counterclockwise. [http://www.sosmath.com/trig/Trig1/trig1/trig1.html]

Engineer being what they are, they hve designed here an instrument that looks like a clock but is not. You have to read on the trigonometric way with the pitch increasing when the dial travel counterclockwise. ;) Hence Increasing the blade angle means increasing the pitch on gauge with the dial traveling from right to the left.

Respectively, decreasing the blade angle means decreasing the pitch with the dial moving clockwise ;)

Yes it's weird. Sometime teh worst thing to do is to ask some engineers :grin:


when do i know that i overreved the engine enough??


It depends of your alt.

But if you look at the ata gauge you'll see that the dial hop to a larger value (around 0.2 ata more) signaling that the compressor blows compressed air to the eng.

With the new ata value you can then slightly increase the pitch (counterclockwise) to use the extra power available for building speed.



i observed, that when i go from level flight into a climb, and increase the prop pitch(meaning going from 10 to eleven o clock on the gauge)

he he that is Lowering the pitch (clockwise - remember the positive way is the other one from the right to left))



there comes the point, where suddenly the ata pressure decreases slightly the more i increase the prop pitch......is that the point where i should stop increasing the pp?


You might be overreving your engine. I hve to see that.


is it advisable to maintain the highest possible ata pressure all the time?


No. Eng put on strain = raise in temp with an increased risk of failure or a lower time available at full power once the fight begin.

Perso I like to begin a fight with a cold engine and for such Cruise at low power (low ata) and high blade angle. The 109 has a very good cruise speed thx to a better aero efficient design. Cruise speed is in the range of a low 350 to a high 400kph TAS for the E model




meaning in combat situation, i mainly fly with full throttle and only adjust the pp.through change of the prop pitch, the pressure changes as well, ....
so if i maintain 1,325ata with full throttle...would that be the way to go????

YES !

However playing with the throttle is of great help in a fight. Hence I am ctly handling both command unless I am B&Zing with both value only slightly moving around the 1.32/10h values just like you.

~S!

[VO101_Tom]

Lol, I know what your trying to say but your miles away from what I mean..


Ok, we misunderstood each other. I thought we are talking about Spit IIa :grin:

[Ze-Jamz]

Ok, we misunderstood each other. I thought we are talking about Spit IIa :grin:

~S~

Lol I was :)

Right up until the Early Spit-V and the 109-f4 then the Spits started to get the edge so that whole BnZ tactic with the dive speed, climb speed and turn radius (at speed) fell down to the introduction of the FW-190

I know this is just a rough sketch if you like but you get my meaning..

In a nutshell the Spit2a should not have that much of an advantage over the 109-e4 that we see in game presently irrespective to FM's, right or wrong, documentation etc...Im talking about what we have in game right now

[Ataros]

Do not know if this video was posted before but hope it can bring some faith in Emil back.

4 vs. 4 it should not be as bad as 1 vs. 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emYemd_rYu4&feature=player_embedded


PS. I know that it is easier to say so than to do it but I think the idea should be not to outperform or outfly the Spit2 but to kill it using E4's superior and deadly firepower on the 1st or 2nd pass. Of cause not 1 vs. 1.

[David198502]

thx tomcat for your answer.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Seems to be that most people are not douche bags and dont fly the Spit IIa. Just for you information 5./JG27 Server is currently hosting an Adlertag Mission without the 109Emil 4 or the Spit IIa... has been for some time.

[Gollum]

Seems to be that most people are not douche bags and dont fly the Spit IIa. Just for you information 5./JG27 Server is currently hosting an Adlertag Mission without the 109Emil 4 or the Spit IIa... has been for some time.

I fly repka 2 mostly because it usually has the most people on and the map isn't rediculously big for the aount of players. I'de prefer a full real server but the english channel map is huge for the amount of people playing.

I'm not stating this for all servers but repka 2 is full of spit 2as. I just played on it 10 minutes ago and almost everyone on red was a 2a.

What does this mean?

Scully (my wingman) and I were patroling at 400 KM when he noticed 2 dots approaching from our 6 oclock low. We had plenty of distance so we engaged afterburner and tried to climb away. when afterburner ran out we pulled a slight banking left to check 6. the two dots were closing in. (Crap 2a).. The only idea left was to attempt a drag and bag. My wingman turned (to bait the spit) and dove to our 2 Oclock while I climbed. The lead spit took the bait and followed in the dive (usually a fatal mistake in a spit). I quickly inverted and dove in persuit ignoring the 2nd for my wingmans sake while also assuming I had him beat in the dive.

What happened?

My wingman quickly reached 700 KPH hoping to get distance since the dive started with a negative g dive. I also hoped to gain on the spit in the high speed dive and clear my wingmans tail while the spit was focussed on said wingman and said wingman was outdiving the spit. Unfortunately the spits outdove both of us. The lead spit outran me and killed my wingman while the second spit cought up to me and disabled my controls. Keep in mind this was a prolonged dive from 400 KM. There was lots of room between all planes and the dive lasted a good 30 seconds before shots were fired. The sky was angry that day my friend, this was no girly dive. Wings were creaking.

To add insult to injury. I bailed, parachute didn't deploy, and i supermaned into the side of the red mountain airfield. This part I actually enjoyed.

Hehe.

Conclusion,
There is no tactic to kill spit 2a unless you have a large altitute advantage and he doesnt see you.

Or hes a poor shot and you give him lots of time behind a friendlies tail.

I'm all for realism guys but atleast limit the amount of them. whats the actual combat statistic? 40 percent?
Gollum.;)

[Gollum]

Do not know if this video was posted before but hope it can bring some faith in Emil back.

4 vs. 4 it should not be as bad as 1 vs. 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emYemd_rYu4&feature=player_embedded


PS. I know that it is easier to say so than to do it but I think the idea should be not to outperform or outfly the Spit2 but to kill it using E4's superior and deadly firepower on the 1st or 2nd pass. Of cause not 1 vs. 1.

This is assuming you get a first pass. You can only bring guns to bear on it if you have suprise and large altitude advantage, or superior numbers (however this means some unfortunate pilot has the job of being the dancing monkey) And im sorry for forgetting this but theres also luck. With a 4 vs 4 you may be correct though. More chances of lining up shots with superior fire power since there will be dancing monkeys involved. If 4 spits are on the tail of 4 109s, its possible that 3 of those 109s are chasing 3 of those spits and firepower may come into play since the 109s can do more damge.

The real question though is, is the current FM and numbers of the 2a historacally correct compared to the 109 E4. At this point I dont think so. I dont know enough about the FM but most are saying that it is either overmodeled or the 109 is undermodeled. There is also the question of numbers. Did the RAF have 100 percent of their squadrens outfitted with these? allowing everyone to chose one on a server says they did. I dont mind not getting an e4 and being forced to fly and 3 or 1 if thats how it goes. Ide rather that then having everyone dominate in a superior plane. Plane restrictions is the only way to deal with this. If the next german plane is better than the 2a, restrict the crap out of it historically. Thats the fair way to do it in my opinion. At least you only have to watch out for a a few of them instead of all of them. Just an opinion though.

I just wan't realism. I'm willing to take a disadvantage if it is historical but I don't think 100 percent of the fighters the e4 faced were 2a. I'm not saying they should be banned. Just saying they should have the FMs proper and in proper numbers so it's not a massacre up there.

in the last few flights i took. the only kills i got were sneak attacks from above. all other engagements were futile. (see superman story above)

hehe. Gnight all

Gollum

[Danelov]

The real question though is, is the current FM and numbers of the 2a historacally correct compared to the 109 E4. At this point I dont think so. I dont know enough about the FM but most are saying that it is either overmodeled or the 109 is undermodeled. There is also the question of numbers. Did the RAF have 100 percent of their squadrens outfitted with these? allowing everyone to chose one on a server says they did. I dont mind not getting an e4 and being forced to fly and 3 or 1 if thats how it goes. Ide rather that then having everyone dominate in a superior plane. Plane restrictions is the only way to deal with this. If the next german plane is better than the 2a, restrict the crap out of it historically. Gollum

About the historical numbers:

Spitfire MK II : 750 produced(from June 1940), entry in service in August 1940with the 611th Squadron.

Messerschmitt 109E-4: 250 produced(from May 1940)
Messerschmitt 109E-4B: 211 produced(from Aug 1940)

A good number of E-3 were refitted in field as E-4s.
The E-4 make his aparition in high numbers after August 1940. Before , bulk of operations(and losses)was supported by the E-1s.

If the intention was to reproduced the battle after historical numbers :

July
-No Spitfire MK II, very few E-4s. A lot of E-1s and a few E-3s.
August
-Some Spitfires MK II, some more E-4 , still a lot of E-1s , few E-3s.
September
-More Spitfire MK II, More E-4s, a little less E-1s and very few E-3. A dozen of E-7s.
October
-Near all Spitfire MK II and E-4s and some more E-7s, still a good number of E-1s. any E-3.
Novembrer
-Spitfires MK II, E-4s and E-7s, very few E-1s, any E-3.

[SEE]

Some interesting numbers their Danelov. Imagine trying to sort that out on MP servers for historical accuracy- it would be impossible.

Leaving the Mk2 out isn't the problem for many Spit jockeys wether for performance or historical reasons. Being left with a Mk1 with two speed prop and a Hurricane that outpaces it also fails on historical/performance correctness. But, it's a 'fair play' compromise for MP untill the FM's are tweaked.

[SNAFU]

You might either look for a historically orientated layout or for a fair orientated layout. Choose one of the two, the first gives the comfort of neglecting any long discussions. ;)

[TomcatViP]

I hve been fighting the Spit IIa in a 109 at low alt
I hve been invoved in tight turn fight with a Spit Ia in a nimble G50
I hve seen myself B&Zing a Spit Ia in a hurri (mistaken it for a 109)
I have been chased at high alt by a climbing Spit in my 109E3

I can tell you one thing : in none of the above case did I felt like fighting a real plane.

Everything I did was matched on an oddly manner only by the strange FM of the thing.

You can tell what ever you like but this has nothing in common with a spit or a real plane. Hence its only presence would be the ground of thousands speculations and debates.

[Ze-Jamz]

TC I don't understand any of that mate apart from what you were in and what you fought...please explain again?

Are you saying the Spit doesn't feel like a plane or something like that?

~S~

[SEE]

A lot of this fair play argument is all to do with altitude and many players tendency to engage at low alt.

If you read the Autobiographies of many of the Pilots who flew the Spits, during and after the BoB, you get a better sense of what each of these ac were capable of.

Discipline was a key factor for pilots on both sides. In many accounts, Spit Pilots would see the BFs above them. If the numbers were evenly matched and the BF pilots thought they had no elemenent of suprise they would refrain from dropping down to engage. The BF Pilot knew where and under what circumstances he had the edge....at Altitude or by suprise and were disciplined to engage when they had the advantage of both.

The BFs currently modelled have better engine performance than the Spit Mk2 at 18K+. Most of the ac have problems with FM and that is where the argument lies.

If one day CloD goes Eastern Front with Yaks.......?

[SEE]

I watched Klem and Stryker (Klem will know the player? ) engage in a mock combat (BF v Spit2) at around 20K, Co E, to assess both. They seemed evenly matched but maybe Klem will give his conclusions. Even with Ventrillo comms I had real problems keeping eyes on both because of the separation as they were split-assing at very high speeds.

[TomcatViP]

TC I don't understand any of that mate apart from what you were in and what you fought...please explain again?

Are you saying the Spit doesn't feel like a plane or something like that?

~S~

Yes. It seems to be to a lesser extent than in the old Il2 but it still have very debatable E losses. Hence the tight turn and so on.

In a few word If you love the historical Spitfire, ban the thing we hve in game !

If CoD devs wants that we have an easy mount for young players, none here wld be against that idea (my guess) but they hve to call it a NoobFire or a paint it in a special color (Light green - a GreenFire ?) that we don't feel lost or disappointed by what is alrdy a remarkable game.

[Jugdriver]

In a few word If you love the historical Spitfire, ban the thing we hve in game !

If CoD devs wants that we have an easy mount for young players, none here wld be against that idea (my guess) but they hve to call it a NoobFire or a paint it in a special color (Light green - a GreenFire ?) that we don't feel lost or disappointed by what is alrdy a remarkable game.

What a load of BS.

JD
AKA_MattE

[JG52Krupi]

If CoD devs wants that we have an easy mount for young players, none here wld be against that idea (my guess) but they hve to call it a NoobFire or a paint it in a special color (Light green - a GreenFire ?) that we don't feel lost or disappointed by what is alrdy a remarkable game.

We had two in il2:1946 one called the la7 and another the spit mk9 +25lb :-P ;)

[Talisman]

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Some interesting gen at the above link. Some will have already seen, but it is food for thought me thinks.

Happy landings,

[Madfish]

Yes. It seems to be to a lesser extent than in the old Il2 but it still have very debatable E losses. Hence the tight turn and so on.

In a few word If you love the historical Spitfire, ban the thing we hve in game !

If CoD devs wants that we have an easy mount for young players, none here wld be against that idea (my guess) but they hve to call it a NoobFire or a paint it in a special color (Light green - a GreenFire ?) that we don't feel lost or disappointed by what is alrdy a remarkable game.

Not sure about that. I haven't flown a spitfire and even if you do you'd probably not go all out like in a fight that may cost you your life. So we can only rely on some basic numbers.

Regarding the balance issue there is no solution though. There is NO balance. That was the point of the war. I listed all the variables (at least a good amount of them) and all of these aren't anything we could fix in the game.

So for true dogfighting on even ground add support for flying in the same planes against each other. And by support I mean don't take out all the planes or screw the FM but actually give dogfighters a way to fly against an equal opponent - aside from their own skill.

For co-op and all the other realism servers you can just add the planes the server admins want. Also the community can eventually come up with some great dynamic campaign stuff that either:
- goes the route of realism and does that
- or a little fiction and fairness and actually gives the "losing" side opportunities to fly with better planes / ammo to make the game more fun


And seeing how this thread progressed that far I seriously think it's time to think about solutions to the underlying problem. And tuning the FM is NOT a solution I believe.

[TomcatViP]

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Some interesting gen at the above link. Some will have already seen, but it is food for thought me thinks.

Happy landings,

Lol you guys are getting rusty. :eek:I would hve though those tables wld hve come much before.

Pls if you are serious enough take some time to read the SPit&Blabla.com curves. It does not depict anything serious (especially those ones).

Thx in advance

[TomcatViP]

Not sure about that. I haven't flown a spitfire and even if you do you'd probably not go all out like in a fight that may cost you your life. So we can only rely on some basic numbers.

Regarding the balance issue there is no solution though. There is NO balance. That was the point of the war. I listed all the variables (at least a good amount of them) and all of these aren't anything we could fix in the game.

So for true dogfighting on even ground add support for flying in the same planes against each other. And by support I mean don't take out all the planes or screw the FM but actually give dogfighters a way to fly against an equal opponent - aside from their own skill.

For co-op and all the other realism servers you can just add the planes the server admins want. Also the community can eventually come up with some great dynamic campaign stuff that either:
- goes the route of realism and does that
- or a little fiction and fairness and actually gives the "losing" side opportunities to fly with better planes / ammo to make the game more fun


And seeing how this thread progressed that far I seriously think it's time to think about solutions to the underlying problem. And tuning the FM is NOT a solution I believe.

I am sure you have good intention but if you think that the Spit won the BoB take some time to read the sorties ratio and the kill ratio (it was a galvanizing symbol for the ppl of UK) . Then hev a look at the aggressive campaign fought by the RAF with real MkIIa/b in the late 40/ early 41 period, and come back to us.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

The devs just should fix those d@mn FMs of all planes and finish the discussions :)

[ElAurens]

The devs just should fix those d@mn FMs of all planes and finish the discussions :)


True, but that would not keep TomcaViP from complaining about the Spitfire. He will not be happy until it is made totally useless.

[TomcatViP]

Lol. Pls be sure that this is not my goal. I do like the spit and hve flown her in sims extensively when we where lucky enough that she was modeled honestly.

I would be please to trade my rusty and smoky Hurri for a Brand new SPit ! ;)

Will shut my mouth as here is so much TC entries lately that I wonder if I am not modded myself !

[Madfish]

I am sure you have good intention but if you think that the Spit won the BoB take some time to read the sorties ratio and the kill ratio (it was a galvanizing symbol for the ppl of UK) . Then hev a look at the aggressive campaign fought by the RAF with real MkIIa/b in the late 40/ early 41 period, and come back to us.

No mate, read my post again please.

What I am saying is that ALL discussions about compared performance are close to useless. Warplanes were not meant to be balanced and as such you will ALWAYS find people bickering about the in game performance.

Now, what I said was they need to fix the FM if it's flawed (and yes it feels weird but not just on the spit) but that has nothing to do with the core issue here. Which is people complaining about getting their butt set on fire by imbalanced planes.

The only way to fix that issue is to give dogfight servers a way of having pilots fly the same plane against each other. That way they can't blame it on the plane or the FM but only on their skills. This is the only way to solve this ongoing discussion.

And please don't say the spitfire sucked so much after göring's stupid order that the 109s had to fly in formation with bombers e.g. Most opposed that stupidity and many 109s were lost and couldn't do a thing. I don't really care for the numbers to be honest since, and then again, I mentioned this in my post, I already said it depends on so many variables:
-For example the service status of the planes
-combat experience of the pilots
-formation they had to fly in (e.g. line formation for the brits)
-stupid orders they were under, like görings bomber escort insanity
-the fact that the germans had to fly over to the UK and only had about 10minutes fuel for combat
-the fear of getting shot down over enemy territory or the channel
-being rested or not
-being stationed far from home
-having good food or not
-etc.
There are SO many factors that contribute to the war - we shouldn't mix up the results of the war with flying characteristics.

Fact is also that home pilots are:
-rested
-well fed
-have no fear of dieing
-always have a respawn button
-know all the performance stats
-know all the weaknesses of their enemies
-get unlimited training hours
-have perfect equiment at home
-got years to practice tactics
-etc.

We CANNOT simply come up with numbers of the war. We also cannot expect to neglect all the psychological effects the war did that affected the numbers. We can only try to come up with great flight models and let the dog fighters fight on equal footings and adjust co-op scenarios WITHOUT taking them too serious.

It's pointless to try and re-create the war. It will never work, never be balanced, ever. Machine performance wasn't the only thing that decided it. Maybe I'm totally wrong and just a complete tard but that's what I wanted to say :-P in fact I don't give a damn what plane is better if they have a decent FM that I can enjoy. For those who cry about imbalanced planes there won't ever be a real solution. In my opinion at least.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Just make up a server with the proposed planeset and see if ppl will like it or not.

I for my part see two kinds of people writing here in this thread:

- Those who don't want to have the things changed either because they are happy that all planes except the Spit 2a are underpowered. They are in favour of having the Spit 2a everywhere where it is like a 1942 plane in a 1940 year war. My guess is, Madfish, that you belong to this group, or you did not read the thread or you just don't have a clue what the thread is about.

- Those who recognize that the FMs are flawed creating an unhistoric imbalance. Madfish: Take note: unhistoric imbalance. Because in case you might have missed it the thread is not about historic imbalance.

The cause for this thread is because all planes except the Spit 2a are underpowered considering historic values. There is nothing to discuss here.

So just fix the FM to give all planes historic performance and basta.

[SEE]

Those who recognize that the FMs are flawed creating an unhistoric imbalance. Madfish:

The cause for this thread is because all planes except the Spit 2a are underpowered considering historic values. There is nothing to discuss here.

So just fix the FM to give all planes historic performance and basta.

My disagreement is with the SpitMk1 v The Hurricane as currently modelled. Their relative performce and specs are reversed for the time period, Im in the group above but think it merits discussion.

Leave the Mk2 out by all means but at least have the performance of the remaining Allied fighters suited to their roles and corrected relative to the BFs as currently modelled! In other words - fix the two that are wrong initially.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

My disagreements goes: I just want ALL aircraft have their correct historic performance. If this is achieved the relative performance of each plane will be correct automatically. This includes the Hurricanes, the Spit 1, the Spit 1a (that should have CS), the Fiat G50 and the 109s. I don't know about the twin engine planes and the stuka.

[ElAurens]

Two points here:

1. The performance numbers of most of the aircraft in the sim are simply wrong and need to be fixed. We all can agree on that. (I hope).

2. Historical combat outcomes can never be acheived in combat flight simulation. I have taken part in a couple of online campaigns that were very well crafted to simulate the war in North Africa, and the campaign over New Guinea. Correct plane sets as far as possible, correct bases as far as possible, correct numbers of available types, supply issues, etc... And not one time did the historic outcome from WW2 happen. Why? Because we are human beings and we adapt to the mistakes made in the past. We know what each side did correctly or incorrectly in the real deal, and we will not follow blindly the tactics that led to failure. We are not historic re-inactors. We are competetive and we want to win, regardles of what we say here.

So please stop using how the real campaign over England (or any other theatre) played out as justification for aircraft performance. It has nothing to do with it.

[JG53Frankyboy]

very well said !

[AARPRazorbacks]

After reading the comments about the Hurri, Spit I,Ia and the 109's and flying in MP the 109's have the advantage in speed, turning , climbing and fire power.
the IIa is the only Brit plane that fly's like it should but still not the fire power.

And for some reason the groups that fly the 109's do not like the IIa on servers because thy do not have all the advantage.

The 109 pilots say thy do not get in a turning fight with the hurri and Spit I,Ia.
But thy do and out turn the Hurri and Spit I,Ia because of the speed thy can get in the turns.
The 109 pilots also know thy can out climb the Hurri and Spit I,Ia be cause of the speed.
The IIa flys like it should and takes away the big advantage from the 109 pilots and thy do not like that.

[Ze-Jamz]

After reading the comments about the Hurri, Spit I,Ia and the 109's and flying in MP the 109's have the advantage in speed, turning , climbing and fire power.
the IIa is the only Brit plane that fly's like it should but still not the fire power.

And for some reason the groups that fly the 109's do not like the IIa on servers because thy do not have all the advantage.

The 109 pilots say thy do not get in a turning fight with the hurri and Spit I,Ia.
But thy do and out turn the Hurri and Spit I,Ia because of the speed thy can get in the turns.
The 109 pilots also know thy can out climb the Hurri and Spit I,Ia be cause of the speed.
The IIa flys like it should and takes away the big advantage from the 109 pilots and thy do not like that.

I think your playing the wrong game m8

[SEE]

He's playing the right and best game, Razor is just casting his opinion like everyone else, I prefer to hear them all even if I don't necessarily agree. Thats why we have a forum - to debate issues and gameplay, but you know that anyway Jamz.

Mind you, someone logged onto ATAG last night, spent a while then announced.....'to hell with this I'm going back to ROF'........lol!

[Ze-Jamz]

He's playing the right and best game, Razor is just casting his opinion like everyone else, I prefer to hear them all even if I don't necessarily agree. Thats why we have a forum - to debate issues and gameplay, but you know that anyway Jamz.

Mind you, someone logged onto ATAG last night, spent a while then announced.....'to hell with this I'm going back to ROF'........lol!

Agreed..

I leave it here then... #109 top speed# nothing to do with moaning because things have got harder lmao

cheers

Dam,, i said I wasn't going to discuss this sorry topic anymore... shouldn't have lowered myself to such tripe accusations

[AARPRazorbacks]

Enjoy the Video;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utjYPACrMGo

[Ze-Jamz]

Enjoy the Video;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utjYPACrMGo

:roll: :-?

[ElAurens]

That video proves nothing.

Well maybe that some guys manage their energy better than others and that a lucky hit can stop any plane.

[Winger]

That video proves nothing.

Well maybe that some guys manage their energy better than others and that a lucky hit can stop any plane.

Its always like that. But that also doesnt change the fact that the Spit II can do whatever it wants iwth a 109 since its outperforming it by lengths in any discipline and doesnt belong to the servers with the current FMs. Thank god ATAG guys got it and there is none now. Much better playing there. Sadly the Repka guys dont get it.

Winger

[Winger]

After reading the comments about the Hurri, Spit I,Ia and the 109's and flying in MP the 109's have the advantage in speed, turning , climbing and fire power.
the IIa is the only Brit plane that fly's like it should but still not the fire power.
.

Simply FALSE!
Spit I and Ia have better turning ability than the 109 109 is faster and better climber

Hurricane is almost as fast and better turner. Climb is also very close. Takes ages for a good 109 pilot to outfly a decent height advantage against a good hurri pilot.

Italian G50 does everything worse than any other plane.

Spit IIa does everything better than every other plane in game.

These are the unadorned facts my friend. And i am SURE that EVERY CloD pilot that has somewhat decent exxperience will agree on all those points with me.

Winger

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

looking at the picture it even seems that the spit outrolls the 109 ...

[Skoshi Tiger]

That video proves nothing.

Well maybe that some guys manage their energy better than others and that a lucky hit can stop any plane.

+1

Did you notice that he didn't allow his spitfire to go into -G cutout once during the who video? Either that great flying or the 109 pilot was't using manuvers to take advantages of his opponents weaknesses.


The 109 pilot did enter a number of spins during the fight, thats either running out of energy, bad flying or a last ditch effort! (I'm guilty of those three things myself so you could call me an expert ;) )

Cheers!

[macro]

my 2 pennies worth:

Im not an "ace" at this by any means, but i usually fly the hurri rotol on atag server

I tried the spit 2 when they had it and it was like changing the difficulty to easy so i stopped flying it, almost felt like i was cheating (and felt sorry for the little 109's).

I also tried flying against it, but not flying the 109 alot, was pointless

I think if they can bring in the e7 and make it a match for the spit2 (dont know if this is accurate historically or not) then you could have different "eras" of the BoB, late and early with different scenarios, i,e bombing convoys, then airfeilds and later cities for example.

[TomcatViP]

That wld be the worst thing to do. Leveling those great FM to that of the relaxed ones that hve the Spits wld kill what CoD had tried to achieved : a fair simulation of a very special part of history

[Winger]

+1

Did you notice that he didn't allow his spitfire to go into -G cutout once during the who video? Either that great flying or the 109 pilot was't using manuvers to take advantages of his opponents weaknesses.


The 109 pilot did enter a number of spins during the fight, thats either running out of energy, bad flying or a last ditch effort! (I'm guilty of those three things myself so you could call me an expert ;) )

Cheers!

agreed. The 109 was loosing control all the time and didnt use his rolling ability and negative G capability.

The Sopit on the other hand had plenty of chances to put tons of lead into the 109 but simply wasnt abel to steady his sights long enough.

I have met guys online that would have shot that 109 into 1000 pieces within the first minute of the clip:)

Winger

[David198502]

all i can say about this debate is.......we need historical correct flight models for all the planes.as close to reality as possible!thats all we need.
this game is called a flight SIM.
so there should not be made the attempt to even sides for gameplay in my opinion.

if we have realistic performing aircrafts,then i will begin to serious fly online.and then i will happily fight spitsII with my E4,even if my plane is still inferior.
but until this problem is solved, ill stay offline most of the time.

[JG53Frankyboy]

I think if they can bring in the e7 and make it a match for the spit2 (dont know if this is accurate historically or not) then you could have different "eras" of the BoB, late and early with different scenarios, i,e bombing convoys, then airfeilds and later cities for example.

An E-7 was nothing else as an E-4 able to carry a droptank.

Assuming that all CoD 109s are using the same DB601Aa engine, there should almost be no difference in performance between E-1,E-3and E-4 . The E-1 was some very few kg lighter..........
A 109 with differnet performance would be a Bf109E-4/N, but these planes ware rare!
To my knowlage only one fightergroup was equipted with it, and perhaps some additonal among the other groups for some special aces. but even that is doubtfull as it needed different fuel than the other 109s.


From the beginning, to have an E-3 in game was a strangr decission.......E-1 and E-4 ( with their -/B variants) should have made it IMO. But thats already a very dead horse.
same category as the ita
ian planes, the heardbreaker Spit and the german Minelayer.......

[AARPRazorbacks]

I put this video up to show that the IIa has no great advantage over the 109's like some would like to make some think.

But the 109 had/has the advantage over the I,Ia and hurri. That is why the Brits made the IIa to take away that advantage as in the sim.

I'm not going to flame anyone that thinks other wise. Whats the point of that?

If you fly MP and what to fly the IIa or not join a server that has the plane or not.

flyer01

[David198502]

well the spitII has every possible advantage.its faster,it turns better,it climbs better it even outdives the bf.

[Winger]

I put this video up to show that the IIa has no great advantage over the 109's like some would like to make some think.

But the 109 had/has the advantage over the I,Ia and hurri. That is why the Brits made the IIa to take away that advantage as in the sim.

I'm not going to flame anyone that thinks other wise. Whats the point of that?

If you fly MP and what to fly the IIa or not join a server that has the plane or not.

flyer01

You obviously have no clue what youre talking about - sorry.
Winger

[AARPRazorbacks]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=7168&stc=1&d=1316372425

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=7169&stc=1&d=1316372472

[AARPRazorbacks]

Like I sayed if you want to fly the IIa on MP join a server that has that plane if not don't.

[Winger]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=7168&stc=1&d=1316372425

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=7169&stc=1&d=1316372472

That was on the ATAG full real servers and at least 20 of those were bombers...
And i never said the 109 had no chances against Spit Is or hurris.

To me it looks like you dont want to get it.
Again: The planeset spit Is and hurris against 109s stands for interestiung fights fo both sides.
Spit IIa against whatever stands for slaughterhouse with blue cattle.

That other shot you made was obviously made on one of the repka servers. I mean comeon. On this server everyone can make kills that can aim well. There is permanently anyone fighting against anyone and there also is someone getting into a fight catching somebody by surprise. Someone with a good aim and strong weapon can make kills en masse there.
A good shooter in a spit could make just as many kills with the right belting.

Winger

[Winger]

Like I sayed if you want to fly the IIa on MP join a server that has that plane if not don't.

I didnt start this thread because one server introduced the spit IIa after that patch... They all did. Thank god the only (and up to now best) full real server with people on it (ATAG) now has taken it out and both sides have fun there i believe.

Winger

[Ze-Jamz]

Someone with a good aim and strong weapon can make kills en masse there.
A good shooter in a spit could make just as many kills with the right belting.

Winger


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/Jamz33/2011-05-24_00006.jpg

[ElAurens]

Well to be honest about that pic sir, we would have to know how long you were flying on the server, wouldn't we?

And your score proves nothing about the Spit IIa, and mostly says something about your skills and the lack therof of your opponents.

:cool:

[Ze-Jamz]

Congratulations...

And that wasnt the last of them either...stupidly easy to rack up kills in that thing

My point is and as I've said hundreds of time, the stats mean nothing in this game currently, I posted this on the back end of what Winger posted above..

Makes me laugh on the futile attempts of people trying to justify why this plane should be in the servers or not.....still

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I think the stats show some tendencies and as such are valid.

It is still fact that all planes except the spit 2a are undermodelled. This does not make the Spit 2a overmodelled but we need historic performance for ALL aircraft. What's there to discuss about?

[Ze-Jamz]

I think the stats show some tendencies and as such are valid.

It is still fact that all planes except the spit 2a are undermodelled. This does not make the Spit 2a overmodelled but we need historic performance for ALL aircraft. What's there to discuss about?

At last..

I really didnt think it was that hard for everyone to understand as to why were having a discussion here..but it seems we keep going backwards and the whole ''yea but i just shot down 2 Spit2's with my 109'' comes up OR ''I just got owned by a 109 in my Spit2 so whats the problem?''

Its nothing to do with Pilot Skill, nothing to do with Stats..its to do with FM's that are not modeled correctly

Give me strength..

It really doesn't matter if it a n isle map and people just cant wait to fly into a furball, rinse and repeat..leave it in them servers, after all they are stupidly easy to fly and are great fun..but for big map mission based FR servers leave them out because they are 'not fair'.. not fair being 2 words that i hope just sums it up really

[VO101_Tom]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/Jamz33/2011-05-24_00006.jpg

How can this be? Sure, you're not listening when they said, that the Spit II is actually not a good aircraft. Then sitting into and shoot down nearly forty aircraft. Great. And then what about the reds? http://www.pumaszallas.hu/forum/images/smilies/motz_7.gif

Nice points anyway ;)

One day, I tried the same test, but with Spit Ia. I collected 7-8 points and one KIA (chute did not open), but there was no time to continue. All I've done, I didn't pushed on zero meters below the dogfights, climb when I did not see anyone, and (who neurasthenic do not read further) i left the target, when another 109 appears... :rolleyes:

[Ze-Jamz]

How can this be? Sure, you're not listening when they said, that the Spit II is actually not a good aircraft. Then sitting into and shoot down nearly forty aircraft. Great. And then what about the reds? http://www.pumaszallas.hu/forum/images/smilies/motz_7.gif

Nice points anyway ;)

One day, I tried the same test, but with Spit Ia. I collected 7-8 points and one KIA (chute did not open), but there was no time to continue. All I've done, I didn't pushed on zero meters below the dogfights, climb when I did not see anyone, and (who neurasthenic do not read further) i left the target, when another 109 appears... :rolleyes:

Lol..That wasnt the last screen mate.. i ended up on 48 kills/ 1 death and was flying on the server for just over 3 hours..

I used it like a 109 bnZ..difference is if you want to turn,chase or climb up to someone you can, nothing escapes..the only way you wouldnt get shot down by the mk2 is if i ran out of ammo and had to RTB, granted that happened a lot of times and i just bailed..couldnt be assed tbh

I havent said its not a good plane, i think it ownes...period, all i would like to see is the other AC that it fights to be given a chance on escape...staying 1k above it at full speed and only BnZ once isnt being 'given a chance' :)

As for DMG, it can take a lot but so can the 109 so I have no idea whats correct who is right and who is wrong on that...

Though i will say, after exploding countless 109 fuel tanks..and them to fly like they were seems a bit far fetched imho

[AARPRazorbacks]

I joined a server that had both the E-4 and the IIa.
I have not been in the E-4 much in combat so I thought I would see just how the E-4 really did compared to the IIa head to head.

This is a server with the English channel map mind you.

We came on head to head(E-4 and IIa)
I got the advantage on the IIa but lost him.

He got the advantage on me. I did some definitive moves and lost him.
But he never got on my 6 after that he got the heck out of there because he know that I had him and one lucky shot as I'v been told he would have been out.

This is the IIa that out fly's the 109's.

The truth is, in the E-4 109 I out did the that IIa.

I stayed around and another IIa showed up. The same thing. But this time he was on my 6. I out did him also in the E-4. And got the advantage.

Had it been a I or a Ia it would have been a ez score as we all know.

I have not been flying the 109's that much but it did not take long to learn how to get the advantage on the IIa in the 109.

Just like it did not take long to learn how to out fly the 109's in the IIa as the video showed.

Conclusion: It's not the IIa that's the problem but the pilot's of the 109's that are not as good as thy think.:rolleyes:

I like the ATAG server. But I also think thy are cheating the Server and the players by not having the IIa and having a more level playing field.

On other servers that have both planes the score's are not lop sided like thy are in the ATAG server for the 109's.

I'm not trying to flame anyone with this.
I'm not going by what other pilots say.
I'm going by what I did and found out.

flyer01

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

flyer, do one thing: Compare historic flight data with the in game performance of the 109 and then do the same for the spit 2a. You will see that the performance of the spit 2a is correct while in game the 109 does not reach its historic performance.

So there IS something wrong with the FM of the 109 whatever arguments ever you want to throw into this discussion.

[Jugdriver]

I'm not trying to flame anyone with this.



LOL, Get Ready Razorback, they are going to try and flame you. Besides you are heating things up a bit with that last post.


JD
AKA_MattE

[Ze-Jamz]

Im sorry but i really cannot see how you in a 109 escaped a Spit2 pilot..unless you were going flat out in a dive and you were using your barn door rudder to either out scissor him and hopefully get a shot in before you bleed to much 'E' and he will punish you if you do that

OR

once above 500kph you again used your rudder to switch direction knowing the Spits heavy surfaces wouldnt be able to match you..

Ive been on countless 109's at all speed and at stall speeds low on the dek, with flaps down and 100%PP and unlimited Boost you ARE NOT getting away from me..lol even if i lose you for 2-3 seconds and your going the other way ffs i can still catch you...I just dont get your conclusion, at all

Im sorry i dont agree with what your saying Razorbacks

Im past caring on if its in or out but please..thats lil story of your has got as much grunt as my screenshot

[Blackdog_kt]

Actually, no one is asking for balanced planes, what they want are planes with their historically appropriate advantages and disadvantages. At least, that's the case between the 109 and Hurri right now, and I assume correct between the 109 and Ia (although, quite frankly, not enough people climb them high enough for me to determine if it really has an advantage at altitude like it should have). Problem is, the IIa has no disadvantages as its current speed, and therefore lift are so much higher than the other planes (and not its historical amount of advantage, but a far greater one) that it becomes the de facto uber-plane of the era, of which there were none.

Exactly. Most of the designs back then were closely matched. Having all fighter designs in the sim currently being undermodeled while a single one is the only one to be modeled correctly to specs is creating a non-historical relative performance situation: the Spit IIa might be flying right in terms of absolute performance, but the performance gaps between the IIa and every other fighter are wrong because everything else is undermodeled.

The solution? We could either undermodel the Spit IIa as well to maintain correct relative performance, or "upgrade" the rest of the fighters to their historically correct FM to do the same (obviously, the second choice is the desirable one :-P).

One of the fastest fighters during the BoB was the 110, but you don't see it being employed that way because of the flutter effect onset at 500km/h making it impossible to BnZ people. No single-engined fighter during the BoB enjoyed a 100km/h advantage over other fighters, but in the sim that's what happens with the MkIIa. Hurricanes weren't faster than Spit Mk.Is but in the sim they are and their roles reversed because of the propeller mix-up. Why does all that happen? Simply, because the FMs need fine tuning.

In the meantime, since we don't have fully accurate FMs, we can tailor planesets around having accurate match-ups in terms of relative performance
;)


What that means for people who are flying MP is to either restrict the numbers of Mk.IIa Spits, ban them altogether, or give them a far-behind-the-lines spawning location so that others can get a chance to get the drop on them, until the 110s and 109s can bounce them like they historically did and the rest of the RAF fighters don't utterly suck compared to the IIa like they didn't suck historically either.

To sum up, it's not so much how the Spit Mk.II flies, but how the rest of the fighters fly: the Spit Mk.II might be the only fighter to be really close to historical performance, but at the same time there was no fighter during the BoB that was 100km/h faster than anything else. That's the problem here, the relative performance inaccuracy which creates non-historical tactical situations, not a single FM all by itself. ;)

[Winger]

I joined a server that had both the E-4 and the IIa.
I have not been in the E-4 much in combat so I thought I would see just how the E-4 really did compared to the IIa head to head.

This is a server with the English channel map mind you.

We came on head to head(E-4 and IIa)
I got the advantage on the IIa but lost him.

He got the advantage on me. I did some definitive moves and lost him.
But he never got on my 6 after that he got the heck out of there because he know that I had him and one lucky shot as I'v been told he would have been out.

This is the IIa that out fly's the 109's.

The truth is, in the E-4 109 I out did the that IIa.

I stayed around and another IIa showed up. The same thing. But this time he was on my 6. I out did him also in the E-4. And got the advantage.

Had it been a I or a Ia it would have been a ez score as we all know.

I have not been flying the 109's that much but it did not take long to learn how to get the advantage on the IIa in the 109.

Just like it did not take long to learn how to out fly the 109's in the IIa as the video showed.

Conclusion: It's not the IIa that's the problem but the pilot's of the 109's that are not as good as thy think.:rolleyes:

I like the ATAG server. But I also think thy are cheating the Server and the players by not having the IIa and having a more level playing field.

On other servers that have both planes the score's are not lop sided like thy are in the ATAG server for the 109's.

I'm not trying to flame anyone with this.
I'm not going by what other pilots say.
I'm going by what I did and found out.

flyer01

Sorry but that pilot must have been a greenhorn. Normally you cant say that its that simple to win a fight by just pulling harder into one direction until you are on the opponents tail. Sitting in a Spit IIa it IS! The spit IIa outturns the 109 in a matter of seconds. And what follows is the 109 being in the recticle of the spit with no chance of escape. Neither up or down or level. Nothing helps.
You can talk as much as you want. Fact remains: Even skilled pilots. One in a IIa, one in a 109. 109=TOAST!
Also i CANNOT understand why you keep insisting in this being wrong. It IS the truth. For me you indeed are nothing but a red jockey that fears for his cheat being removed. Get into a hurri or Ia and you EARNED your victory and can be proud of it. Not by taking this victory using the IIa cheat.

Blackdog summed it up just right. Those are the honest facts.

Winger

[SEE]

Having been on MP regularly I have to agree that, in terms of fair play, it was the correct decision. I guess I am a 'convert' ....(not to 'Blue'....:grin:)

Jamz and Krupi went Red (to even the teams I guess?)...if so, that's 'fair play' and a credit to them. I doubt anyone could accuse many of the guys (who argued for the Spit Mk2 to be dropped) of being biased.

[AARPRazorbacks]

Sorry Winger but the I and the Ia are not right and you do not care about that.

If the I and the Ia where right you would want them off the server if you could not out fly them.

I was on a server where I was flying for the blue team but was able to fly the IIa and was out done by the other pilot flying the IIa more then I liked. lol

The IIa brought some fair play to the server IMO.
The ATAG Server is not putting in the IIa so you got what you wanted. Have fun shooting down the under powered Spit Fires and Ez spin out Hurri. lol


flyer01

[Ze-Jamz]

We still going.....?

Yes SSE me and Krupi flew Red because the teams were uneven mate..

The Spit1 is a real pig getting to Alt and I cooked the engine once I got there which was nice, managed to bag 2 italian bombers and a Low 109 before spinning helplessly into the ground from pulling too hard with a snap shot.

Took a Hurri up and outflew a 109 to get some nice hits and again crashed into the Grd lol.

Really have to work on that...I want me 109 back :)

[AARPRazorbacks]

If you outran him, how do you know it was a Spit IIa?

This is what I said

We came on head to head(E-4 and IIa)
I got the advantage on the IIa but lost him.

He got the advantage on me. I did some definitive moves and lost him.
But he never got on my 6 after that he got the heck out of there because he know that I had him and one lucky shot as I'v been told he would have been out.


Why do you say I out ran him? That's not what I said.

I did said > have fun shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

[trumps]

+1 to what cheese said!

[VO101_Tom]

If you outran him, how do you know it was a Spit IIa? It seems your anecdotal evidence is very unlike anyone elses, which points to your evidence is wrong. If you can't gain advantage on a 109 in a Spit II, your flying is the problem.
...


We should organize a 1v1 server to prove the truth.
5 or 10 km apart, at the same speed, same altitude start toward each other. First meeting is free to shoot or not. This decision should be made. The server is password protected, and the dogfights organizing on chat. Whoever is inside, can follow the fights by external view. I fly Spit II very gladly, against anyone who says that the 109 can shoot it down. 8-) Or even Spit I it also prove that it is not a bad AC, as claimed. :rolleyes:

[Winger]

We should organize a 1v1 server to prove the truth.
5 or 10 km apart, at the same speed, same altitude start toward each other. First meeting is free to shoot or not. This decision should be made. The server is password protected, and the dogfights organizing on chat. Whoever is inside, can follow the fights by external view. I fly Spit II very gladly, against anyone who says that the 109 can shoot it down. 8-) Or even Spit I it also prove that it is not a bad AC, as claimed. :rolleyes:

Please do it, make a gentleman passby (dont shoot in headon and start turning as soon as wintips passed each other). I BET real money on the 109 being defeated in no time, no matter the pilot given the Spit pilot is no greenhorn.

Winger

[Winger]

Sorry Winger but the I and the Ia are not right and you do not care about that.

If the I and the Ia where right you would want them off the server if you could not out fly them.

I was on a server where I was flying for the blue team but was able to fly the IIa and was out done by the other pilot flying the IIa more then I liked. lol

The IIa brought some fair play to the server IMO.
The ATAG Server is not putting in the IIa so you got what you wanted. Have fun shooting down the under powered Spit Fires and Ez spin out Hurri. lol


flyer01

I never argued that the I and Ia AND hurri are not right.......................
So is the 109..........................
But given that they STILL offer a balance in performance like its seemingly right even historicalwise.
I told that advantages to disadvantages now several times and am tired to over and over repeat myself.

Winger

[AARPRazorbacks]

I never argued that the I and Ia AND hurri are not right.......................
So is the 109..........................
But given that they STILL offer a balance in performance like its seemingly right even historicalwise.
I told that advantages to disadvantages now several times and am tired to over and over repeat myself.

Winger

Winger sorry not a personnel attack here but It's hard to under stand what you mean.
I do not think your English is very good. Or you do a lot of double talk.
As far as setting up a server to fly the IIa and the E-4 there are already servers that have both.
Join in and have at it. lol

[Winger]

Winger sorry not a personnel attack here but It's hard to under stand what you mean.
I do not think your English is very good. Or you do a lot of double talk.
As far as setting up a server to fly the IIa and the E-4 there are already servers that have both.
Join in and have at it. lol

Yes LOL:P Obviously you dont get it. But definately not because of my english. (i admit its not my motherlanguage and therefor no the best)
Btw. Its not your motherlanguage as well right:)?

Winger

[David198502]

This is what I said

We came on head to head(E-4 and IIa)
I got the advantage on the IIa but lost him.

He got the advantage on me. I did some definitive moves and lost him.
But he never got on my 6 after that he got the heck out of there because he know that I had him and one lucky shot as I'v been told he would have been out.


Why do you say I out ran him? That's not what I said.

I did said > have fun shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

that post screams for evidence!i would suggest that someone who is used to fly british fighters, takes a spitII and fights against you in a E4 on a closed server.both starting at the same alt and speed.if i would have ever flown a spit in cliffs of dover, i would volunteer for that experiment.
...but i bet that its only a matter of seconds until you end up in the crosshair...

[ATAG_Septic]

that post screams for evidence!i would suggest that someone who is used to fly british fighters, takes a spitII and fights against you in a E4 on a closed server.both starting at the same alt and speed.if i would have ever flown a spit in cliffs of dover, i would volunteer for that experiment.
...but i bet that its only a matter of seconds until you end up in the crosshair...

I don't doubt you and I predict that if I was in the Spit against an Ace in the E4 I would lose. I know I've said this before but all talk of historical accuracy and balance has to include pilots of different abilities. Doesn't it?

[AARPRazorbacks]

Yes LOL:P Obviously you dont get it. But definately not because of my english. (i admit its not my motherlanguage and therefor no the best)
Btw. Its not your motherlanguage as well right:)?

Winger

Obviously I do get it.
You do not want the IIa in any server because you like to make yourself feel good by shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

The IIa was a better fighter then the 109 in a dog fight. did that mean thy never got shot down no.
When I first got into MP I knew that the Spitfires where not what thy should be.
I was told by the 109 pilots that it was not the plane but that the 109 pilots where better then the Spitfire pilots and the 109 where modeled right.

Now we hear that the 109 are not right.

When a pilot went out on his own during the war thy would be in big trouble if thy made it back with out being jumped by a group of enemy planes.

When thy talk about advantage thy where talking about numbers.

The 109 pilots would take on the IIa if and only if thy had the numbers to do so because thy knew it was a better plane.

What are you going to do when thy make the FM of the I and Ia fly like thy should?

[Winger]

Obviously I do get it.
You do not want the IIa in any server because you like to make yourself feel good by shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

The IIa was a better fighter then the 109 in a dog fight. did that mean thy never got shot down no.
When I first got into MP I knew that the Spitfires where not what thy should be.
I was told by the 109 pilots that it was not the plane but that the 109 pilots where better then the Spitfire pilots and the 109 where modeled right.

Now we hear that the 109 are not right.

When a pilot went out on his own during the war thy would be in big trouble if thy made it back with out being jumped by a group of enemy planes.

When thy talk about advantage thy where talking about numbers.

The 109 pilots would take on the IIa if and only if thy had the numbers to do so because thy knew it was a better plane.

What are you going to do when thy make the FM of the I and Ia fly like thy should?

Then theyll fix the 109 along with them and the 109 will still remain the better climber and faster plane. Like it really was.
And the balance remains like it currently is.

Winger

[AARPRazorbacks]

Then theyll fix the 109 along with them and the 109 will still remain the better climber and faster plane. Like it really was.
And the balance remains like it currently is.

Winger

You are right with the IIa in the severe's to give the balance.

[Winger]

You are right with the IIa in the severe's to give the balance.

Hopeless. I am done with you:) Have fun in your UFO:P

winger

[VO101_Tom]

Obviously I do get it.
You do not want the IIa in any server because you like to make yourself feel good by shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

That's the point. The 109 undermodelled too.

You are right with the IIa in the severe's to give the balance.

Read it slowly :rolleyes: : The performance of Spit I, Spit Ia, Hurri, 109 E-1, E-3, E-4 is undermodelled. The Spit II is not.
This is a huge and unfair advantage in parameters also, which should not. Do you understand why this problem? Relative to each other, there are no differences between the other aircrafts. The RAF planes turn better, the 109 climb better, and fastest a bit. The dive speeds almost equal. Spit is better at a manoeuvring ability, the Hurri more sluggish than the 109...

[Ze-Jamz]

I fear you can go over and over and over and over this same topic and 'some' people just do not get it and STILL think this is a big conspiracy to make it easier for the Blue side..

They really DO NOT get the whole ''undermoddeled/incorrect FM'' bit

[trumps]

dont waste your time trying to spell it out to him guys. i sort of miss the IIa now, especially when this flyer01 was online, he was my favorite person to vulch, lost track of the amount of times i pk'ed him, his little spaceship rarely blasted off ;)

Craig

[Winger]

I fear you can go over and over and over and over this same topic and 'some' people just do not get it and STILL think this is a big conspiracy to make it easier for the Blue side..

They really DO NOT get the whole ''undermoddeled/incorrect FM'' bit

I dont think hes THAT dumb thou. I just think he doesnt WANT to get it:)
Or is it possible that he really is?

Winger

[conio]

Ok, lets see if this example makes people understand....

You have 3 cars:
1.- Ferrari
2.- Porsche
3.- Lamborghini

Ferrari and Porsche have the engine of a Volkswagen beetle (the old ones).
Lamborghini has a 12 cylinder 400HP engine.

Obviously, the Lamborghini has the correct engine but the Ferrari and Porsche are no match for it, making it an unfair race.
There are two solutions for this:
1.- Install the VW engine on the Lamborghini bringing them all to similar and competitive specs.
2.- Install the real engine on the Ferrari and Porsche.

Until 1 or 2 happens, Lamborghini should not be allowed in the race unless is a Lamborghini only race (Option 2 being the preferred/expected/desired/optimal/wanted solution).


The same logic applies if you replace:
Ferrari --> 109
Porsche --> spit I and/or Hurri
Lamborghini -> spit IIa

[trumps]

option 2 is the only real solution, this is a sim so it's got to be!

[drewpee]

LOL , The thought of a Ferrari with a ac 1300cc vdub engine is just too much for my mind to comprehend. I'd pay money to see a race of this sort. Maybe Top Gear could do it as a challenge.:grin:

[Ze-Jamz]

Lol..I have seen a Lambo Kit car with a Toyota MR2 engine in!

[AARPRazorbacks]

That's the point. The 109 undermodelled too.



Read it slowly :rolleyes: : The performance of Spit I, Spit Ia, Hurri, 109 E-1, E-3, E-4 is undermodelled. The Spit II is not.
This is a huge and unfair advantage in parameters also, which should not. Do you understand why this problem? Relative to each other, there are no differences between the other aircrafts. The RAF planes turn better, the 109 climb better, and fastest a bit. The dive speeds almost equal. Spit is better at a manoeuvring ability, the Hurri more sluggish than the 109...

Ok I see now -------you think that I just want to have the IIa in because its the best plane and the 109's are not right.

You do not get it.

The 109's out fly out turn and out clime and out shot the Spitfire- I know I fly in MP I have seen this for myself and when a 109 gets on you in a I,Ia or a Hurri it will out run out turn and most of all out fire power the brit planes.

What do you not understand about that?

And most have said--- yes thy do.:eek:
But------ put in the IIa that is able to do the something to the 109's and it has to be taken out.

That is my point and you know that.

[trumps]

Sheesh.... you might need to practice some more, not saying you are a crap pilot or anything but well.....! ;)

[Ze-Jamz]

Ok I see now -------you think that I just want to have the IIa in because its the best plane and the 109's are not right.

You do not get it.

The 109's out fly out turn and out clime and out shot the Spitfire- I know I fly in MP I have seen this for myself and when a 109 gets on you in a I,Ia or a Hurri it will out run out turn and most of all out fire power the brit planes.

What do you not understand about that?

And most have said--- yes thy do.:eek:
But------ put in the IIa that is able to do the something to the 109's and it has to be taken out.

That is my point and you know that.

HAHAHAHHAHA I really hope for your creditably that you don't mean that...

What sort of pilot are you up against who doesn't out turn you in a Spit, ''You gota be Shi*ting me'' as my Gf would say....please dont say your at Alt and are applying vertical moves in there too cuz guess what? on that instance your prob right...and any spit pilot worth his salt wouldnt follow you or try and keep that going..

What you want is the 109 to lose Alt and 'E' too then your cook his sorry a$$ for being a numpty..And as for the 109 outrunning the Hurri? Hmm debatable, what ALt was that btw or did you test them all?

My god, this discussion is getting funny as...

[VO101_Tom]

Ok I see now -------you think that I just want to have the IIa in because its the best plane and the 109's are not right.

You do not get it.

The 109's out fly out turn and out clime and out shot the Spitfire- I know I fly in MP I have seen this for myself and when a 109 gets on you in a I,Ia or a Hurri it will out run out turn and most of all out fire power the brit planes.

What do you not understand about that?

And most have said--- yes thy do.:eek:
But------ put in the IIa that is able to do the something to the 109's and it has to be taken out.

That is my point and you know that.

This is simply not true. The turning rate of RAF airplanes is better than german planes. The corner speed is the key (check out what it means). If you pull without brain, then every plane is a ****pile... of course,if they fight with an equal energy level. If the 109 dive from above, the whole situation already ****** up :rolleyes:

[snwkill]

For me it doesn't seem to matter, as I suck equally no matter which one I fly... I get whooped by JU-88's when I fly the IIa

[AARPRazorbacks]

No---- sorry---- this is true what I said about the 109's vs. the Brits planes other then the IIa.

I'm not a NB to flying MP.

trumps,
I did not think to much about what you did the other day while the IIa where trying to take off from the hillsides and in towns and far away from the other air fileds with no AA to help protect the pilots from that kind of thing. What got me was when I did get in the air after you shot not just me but others the same why you ran.

trumps your alright you just Sh!t to close to house.:)

[macro]

For me it doesn't seem to matter, as I suck equally no matter which one I fly... I get whooped by JU-88's when I fly the IIa

glad im not the only one :cool:

[Jugdriver]

Man this is entertaining. Good on ya Razorback, I don’t agree with your conclusions but it is sure entertaining to watch you whip the Spitfire Haters into a frenzy. LOL!

JD
AKA_MattE

[Ze-Jamz]

Man this is entertaining. Good on ya Razorback, I don’t agree with your conclusions but it is sure entertaining to watch you whip the Spitfire Haters into a frenzy. LOL!

JD
AKA_MattE

No Spitfire hater here..Was in one last night, flown it loads in CoD and flew it exclusively in Il2

[SEE]

Not all servers have excluded the Spit Mk2 so, whatever the debate, there remains 'choice'. Not sure of the player numbers on those servers when ATAG is available.

[Ze-Jamz]

Not all servers have excluded the Spit Mk2 so, whatever the debate, there remains 'choice'. Not sure of the player numbers on those servers when ATAG is available.

Repka Isle of Doom map always seems to have players..Whoever wants to fly it go and fly it there :)

[SEE]

ATAG not showing so went on Repka English Channel Server. Spit Mk2 in plane set and a few other regulars Blue and Red too :grin:

Interestingly, the AI bombers are at low altitude. So, peering down, I spot a trio of Ju88's at 3.5K, went down in my Mk2 ( if it's available why the hell not!.....:grin:) to intercept but a pair of BF's that I hadn't seen were lurking high, down they zoomed and one stuffed a great big hole in my port wing.

I RTB with red eye and would have got a brand spanking new one but the server went down........justice prevails I hear you cry! It's a game...enjoy!

[Ze-Jamz]

Lol..

That will teach yer! :cool:

[Blackdog_kt]

Ok, lets see if this example makes people understand....

You have 3 cars:
1.- Ferrari
2.- Porsche
3.- Lamborghini

Ferrari and Porsche have the engine of a Volkswagen beetle (the old ones).
Lamborghini has a 12 cylinder 400HP engine.

Obviously, the Lamborghini has the correct engine but the Ferrari and Porsche are no match for it, making it an unfair race.
There are two solutions for this:
1.- Install the VW engine on the Lamborghini bringing them all to similar and competitive specs.
2.- Install the real engine on the Ferrari and Porsche.

Until 1 or 2 happens, Lamborghini should not be allowed in the race unless is a Lamborghini only race (Option 2 being the preferred/expected/desired/optimal/wanted solution).


The same logic applies if you replace:
Ferrari --> 109
Porsche --> spit I and/or Hurri
Lamborghini -> spit IIa

Well, it seems there's a suitable car analogy for everything :-P

This is the best explanation of the issue up till now in the entire thread ;)

[conio]

Well, it seems there's a suitable car analogy for everything :-P

This is the best explanation of the issue up till now in the entire thread ;)

Thanks Blackdog.
The inspiration came after reading this ;):

http://marvinlee.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dummies.png

[Ze-Jamz]

Thanks Blackdog.
The inspiration came after reading this ;):

http://marvinlee.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/dummies.png

Personally I wouldn't admit to buying that but hey ho... :-)

[Ze-Jamz]

Razor, i suggest you look at some..no wait..All the documentation you can find on the E1-E3-E4 and the Hurri and your quite clearly see how nerfed the 109 is as far as performance goes..

Forget about the Spit2 for a min...

The Hurri was no where near as fast in a climb, a dive and top speed at sea leave or 5000m..we dont see that in game do we?

So forget about your lil tests and not knowing who the pilot was and his skill level..just take what ive said as backed up with a lot of evidence.

So on that note..were go back to the Spit2

Now...you want the Spit2 in game against the ONLY blue fighter that is completely porked as far as the FM goes? Is that what your saying here?

Also please forget about the Spit1/1a as that isnt the argument here but if you want to play tit for tat:

Blue 109 = porked
Red Spit= porked

We have to live with it but, this is the good bit: we have a matched plane set in game its the 109 and Hurri...that's the Devs faults and no one else's and until the FM is fixed on BOTH sides we have to live with it..

What we DONT do is introduce the plane whoever's side its on which is close to its RL data that you find on countless sites and books and put it against a plane that ISNT

FORGET ABOUT YOUR ENCOUNTERS WITH VARIED SKILLED PILOTS...it means nothing and Im surprised it really is taking this long to explain this

I hope this helps somewhat in explaining what we have tried to do for the last 200 posts not just to you Razor but to everyone whos flogging this horse...poor thing

And as for the server(s) not including it..fair play, theyre the ones that get my respect and you can guarantee as this game gets bigger and better they will be the ones that have the serious pilots flying in it because they will be the ones that introduce fair play and not just include a plane because the Devs give it to us..If its wrong and plain to see that its wrong and is completely porked it gets left out until its fixed... thats the server i wanna be in

You want the Spit2 and any other AC that is introduced with a incorrect FM or an obvious flaw..go and fly in an arcade server and smash the $*it out of each other

[Gollum]

Razorback, we do want the 2a in the servers. We dont want the 2a in the servers until all fms are fixed. After that its fair game whether it outperforms the 109s or not. It has to be that way cayse when i get my 190 i dont want to hear it hehe.

As far as your observations go with the 109 having all the advantages against the 1 and 1a, you are just not correct. As stated, the 109 has the climb, negative g and speed at level flight. But the spit has the turning radious. If you fly a spit, which i do when the teams require me to do so, i take a 1a and climb. If you engage a 109 with more e then they have, they can only run. If you run into one with more e than you, you have your turn radious as a defense.

As far as turn radious goes, next time your in a server try the 1a and find a 109 with equal energy. Easy to do on repka since most of the 109 pilots there fly at the deck.(i dont know why). Get in a turn fight, put your prop pitch in fine mode, and pull back on your stick as far as it goes without stalling. Heres the trick, keep it there. Keep it on the fine line between stalling and turning. You will soon be behind the 109 that made the mistake of turning with you.

Please try this before stating that the 109 outturns the spit 1 or 1a.

[AARPRazorbacks]

I'm going to what for official patch to be released before I say an more about this.

Happy landings,
flyer01