Why does my spit spin around before engine start..?

[capt vertigo]

Seems like this was discussed awhile back, but..

When I jump online, and I am sitting in plane, usually spitfire, the plane slowly spins in a circle before I even start engine...

Then once engine is up and running, I often times cannot taxi onto the runway, etc..

Anybody else have this issue..?

Mike

[Ze-Jamz]

Try using the brakes mate...

[skouras]

yeap is a bug
use brakes as Ze-Jamz suggested
i think it will be fixed with the upcoming patch

[PeterPanPan]

Happens to me too. I think there's a crafty rigger behind the tailplane moving it slowly anti-clockwise.

[Vengeanze]

wind?

[skouras]

wind?

exactly ;-)

[capt vertigo]

For some reason brakes don't seem to help with the spit, however they work fine with 109.

Maybe something's off with control settings..

I know my brakes are individually assigned as control axis in setup..

Hmmmmm

Thanks gents.

Mike

[TUCKIE_JG52]

For some reason brakes don't seem to help with the spit, however they work fine with 109.

Maybe something's off with control settings..

I know my brakes are individually assigned as control axis in setup..

Hmmmmm

Thanks gents.

Mike


Bf109 had differential brakes.

Spit not. Anyway it should work if that rotation is the plane facing to wind.

And no, it's not a bug.

[capt vertigo]

Yeah, I don't think it's wind.

Seems like even with engine running and brakes applied, I still can't steer the plane back into the turn.. Often times I just gun the throttle and take off in whatever direction I am facing, and hope for the best... :|


Mike

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Yeah, I don't think it's wind.

Seems like even with engine running and brakes applied, I still can't steer the plane back into the turn.. Often times I just gun the throttle and take off in whatever direction I am facing, and hope for the best... :|


Mike

True, that's the typical behaviour of a taildragger plane; it faces to the wind. I fly a CAP10 in reality and behaves like that, I can assure it! :)

You csan see what happens by wind here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFkvBhkQxw

At 5:30 I receive a windgust from the left and plane goes in that way. It's not torque, I had already pushed right rudder, so I had to push more.

[Robotic Pope]

Yes but you are close to takeoff speed, not stationary on the ground. You'd need storm force winds to do that to a stationary spitfire.

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Yes but you are close to takeoff speed, not stationary on the ground. You'd need storm force winds to do that to a stationary spitfire.

Probably there might be strong winds.

Some time ago I tested it with a 108 km/h wind and there's the effect into CoD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuMDBf6DUwE
2:35, there it is.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

For some reason brakes don't seem to help with the spit, however they work fine with 109.

Maybe something's off with control settings..

I know my brakes are individually assigned as control axis in setup..

Hmmmmm

Thanks gents.

Mike
Your not crazy Mike

I have the exact same problem you have.. My breaks dont stop it either.. One time I did see it stop spinning.. but I think it had something to do with the lay of the land.. Hard to tell, but it looked like the tail got into a low spot and 'the wind' (?) was just not strong enought to push it anymore.. That or the plane was 'in line' with the wind?

But.. if 'the wind' is the cause.. than we are saying 'the wind' is strong enough to move the plane.. if that is true.. than my rudder should be able to 'counter/affect/adj' that movment once the wind gets near inline with the plane.. but that does not seem to be the case.. which is why I dont think it is the wind doing it

[Tbone81]

Bf109 had differential brakes.

Spit not. Anyway it should work if that rotation is the plane facing to wind.

And no, it's not a bug.



Spits do have differential brakes.

If you apply brakes via axis you can release brake on one wheel using rudder.

[NedLynch]

Ageed, wind,not a bug.
Does the tail wheel lock on these planes? Got to find out.

[kedrednael]

When you have a plane with the wind blowing from the side it will act like a weathercock (if that's the right word) because of all the wind against the rudder the aircraft will turn into the wind.

But if you start the engine wouldn't the prop wash be much stronger than the wind? In ROF the propwash is modeled nicely so you can lift the tail from the ground while you are standing still when you have full throttle selected. And when you land and you're going the wrong way you can make the rudder more effective when you turn the engine back on.

I have stood behind prop aircraft in real life, and the prop wash is really strong. even with pretty 'weak' engines (engine of a glider (ash25mi) probably has something like 45hp)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Never mind about the breaks for a moment..

Let's assume for a moment that it is the wind that is causing the Spit to sit-n-spin

Ok, so far so good..

Than.. why doenst the Bf-109 sit-n-spin?

Or any other plane for that matter

What is special about the Spit?

[SG1_Lud]

Never mind about the breaks for a moment..

Let's assume for a moment that it is the wind that is causing the Spit to sit-n-spin

Ok, so far so good..

Than.. why doenst the Bf-109 sit-n-spin?

Or any other plane for that matter

What is special about the Spit?

Your 109 doesnt? Cos here it does for sure.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Your 109 doesnt? Cos here it does for sure.
Yours does?

Ok dissregard than..

Ill admit I have not flown the 109 as much as the Spit.. but the few times I have it did not sit-n-spin like the spit does

[SG1_Lud]

Yours does?

Ok dissregard than..

Ill admit I have not flown the 109 as much as the Spit.. but the few times I have it did not sit-n-spin like the spit does

I cant say always, cos i was not paying attention, but very often is accurate.
I am watching this thread with interest because I am not sure if it is the wind or not (tho I admit it is a valid explanation so far): if I recall correctly my 109 always spins counterclockwise, and that is what makes me doubt.

[Tbone81]

Maybe it is the Corkscrew effect.

http://www.free-online-private-pilot-ground-school.com/propeller-aerodynamics.html

[BadgerSmedly]

If it's prop wash or the wind does a little opposite rudder stop the movement? When it tried it this worked.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I cant say always, cos i was not paying attention, but very often is accurate.
Ok..

And just to be clear, that is as soon as you spawn in right? I mean even before you fire up the engine it starts to spin

On that note, with the engine and rudder in op dir I am able to stop the spin.. but I never seem to be able to turn aginst the spin (read just cancle the spin)

When I turn into it.. it will turn pretty quickly for a little while, about 20 deg.. but than stop again as in no effect..

So it does have that wind vector feel to it but.. odd like.. sometimes it acts like you would expect and in other cases it dont

all in all makes taxi a nightmare.. typically when I spawn I just punch it and hope there is enough room in front of me to make it ;)

[SEE]

To cancel the spin I hold rudder fully deflected and hold brake, increase revs slightly and Spitty turns opposite to spin. When pointing in correct direction release brake, rudder neutral and re apply brakes untill engine or oil temp correct. Take off as per norm for a spitty!


I spawned in a hanger and the spitty still spun around exactly as if it were out of the hanger!

[SG1_Lud]

Ok..

And just to be clear, that is as soon as you spawn in right? I mean even before you fire up the engine it starts to spin



Right

[LoBiSoMeM]

Ok..

And just to be clear, that is as soon as you spawn in right? I mean even before you fire up the engine it starts to spin

On that note, with the engine and rudder in op dir I am able to stop the spin.. but I never seem to be able to turn aginst the spin (read just cancle the spin)

When I turn into it.. it will turn pretty quickly for a little while, about 20 deg.. but than stop again as in no effect..

So it does have that wind vector feel to it but.. odd like.. sometimes it acts like you would expect and in other cases it dont

all in all makes taxi a nightmare.. typically when I spawn I just punch it and hope there is enough room in front of me to make it ;)

Launch FMB and set some strong wind flow. Watch your plane turning until face the wind...

But, PLEASE, use some accurate tool to send us proof of that: Cliffs Of Dover have winds...

As one said earlier: it's not a bug, it's the wind... :cool:

Funny to see some expert in FM with this kind of trouble. Well, test it yourself:

1) In FMB, set strong wind;

2) let your fighter (109, hurricane, spit) idle and let it face the wind;

3) Start engine, use throttle and rudder;

4) Watch the strong wind acting during taxi.

5) Yes: taxi IS a nightmare in strong wind conditions...

6) You have gusts in CloD too...

Made my day. Thanks!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Launch FMB and set some strong wind flow. Watch your plane turning until face the wind...

But, PLEASE, use some accurate tool to send us proof of that: Cliffs Of Dover have winds...

As one said earlier: it's not a bug, it's the wind... :cool:

Funny to see some expert in FM with this kind of trouble. Well, test it yourself:

1) In FMB, set strong wind;

2) let your fighter (109, hurricane, spit) idle and let it face the wind;

3) Start engine, use throttle and rudder;

4) Watch the strong wind acting during taxi.

5) Yes: taxi IS a nightmare in strong wind conditions...

6) You have gusts in CloD too...

Made my day. Thanks!
LOL!

You poor thing..

Let it go!

Before you pop a blood vessel or something!

LoBiSoMeM I know your still very Very VERY upset with me for disagreeing with you in that 'other' thread..

But you following me around (stalking) looking for an opportunity to respond really sets a new low in hurt feelings..

May I make a recommendation?

You should think twice about posting in a open forum if your going to get so upset that you feel the need to stalk people in the forums just for disagreeing with you.

Just a thought!

[TUCKIE_JG52]

When you have a plane with the wind blowing from the side it will act like a weathercock (if that's the right word) because of all the wind against the rudder the aircraft will turn into the wind.

But if you start the engine wouldn't the prop wash be much stronger than the wind? In ROF the propwash is modeled nicely so you can lift the tail from the ground while you are standing still when you have full throttle selected. And when you land and you're going the wrong way you can make the rudder more effective when you turn the engine back on.

I have stood behind prop aircraft in real life, and the prop wash is really strong. even with pretty 'weak' engines (engine of a glider (ash25mi) probably has something like 45hp)


Agree with you, propwash effect should be stronger in CoD, maybe stronger than the RoF one, because of powerful engines and propellers... And I say that comparing to real life, not just comparing a simulator with another.

Once I stood behind a B-25 taxiing in an airshow, it was about 30 meters away and I almost fell to the ground (minute 2:20):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3P_MzYMHc0

:)

[LoBiSoMeM]

LOL!

You poor thing..

Let it go!

Before you pop a blood vessel or something!

LoBiSoMeM I know your still very Very VERY upset with me for disagreeing with you in that 'other' thread..

But you following me around (stalking) looking for an opportunity to respond really sets a new low in hurt feelings..

May I make a recommendation?

You should think twice about posting in a open forum if your going to get so upset that you feel the need to stalk people in the forums just for disagreeing with you.

Just a thought!

Ok, but do you understand that isn't a bug, but wind acting?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Ok, but do you understand that isn't a bug, but wind acting?
Well one thing we know for sure, it is not sun spots! ;)

[Catseye]

[QUOTE=LoBiSoMeM;331354]Launch FMB and set some strong wind flow. Watch your plane turning until face the wind...

But, PLEASE, use some accurate tool to send us proof of that: Cliffs Of Dover have winds...

As one said earlier: it's not a bug, it's the wind... :cool:

Ace of Aces is correct. It is more than the wind. If it is, there should be chocks in place. The aircraft always starts to turn even before starting up - even if it is sheltered in by a sandbag pit. At startup, the prop is not even rich or lean, the oil in the prop hasn't warmed up enough to allow the prop to take a bite of the air until after a few minutes of warm up.

I think it is a bug!

[Catseye]

Agree with you, propwash effect should be stronger in CoD, maybe stronger than the RoF one, because of powerful engines and propellers... And I say that comparing to real life, not just comparing a simulator with another.

Once I stood behind a B-25 taxiing in an airshow, it was about 30 meters away and I almost fell to the ground (minute 2:20):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3P_MzYMHc0

:)

No propwash at startup. The prop can't be adjusted fine or coarse until it warms up. The prop appears to be in a feathered position until it responds to the coarse or fine controls after about 3-5 minutes of warmup. Then the propwash starts to work.

[LoBiSoMeM]

[QUOTE=LoBiSoMeM;331354]Launch FMB and set some strong wind flow. Watch your plane turning until face the wind...

But, PLEASE, use some accurate tool to send us proof of that: Cliffs Of Dover have winds...

As one said earlier: it's not a bug, it's the wind... :cool:

Ace of Aces is correct. It is more than the wind. If it is, there should be chocks in place. The aircraft always starts to turn even before starting up - even if it is sheltered in by a sandbag pit. At startup, the prop is not even rich or lean, the oil in the prop hasn't warmed up enough to allow the prop to take a bite of the air until after a few minutes of warm up.

I think it is a bug!

Just apply brakes and the "bug" goes away...

You do not understand: wind act pushing the side of the aircraft. The barriers to block wind don't exists in simulated CloD physical world, neither "chocks in" state like IL-2 1946, I guess. So, when you start mission in strong cross wind, your light plane will start to spin. Normal.

[capt vertigo]

Next time I am going to watch and see if the grass is blowing, and to see if the plane stops spinning once facing the wind..

Cause I seem to remember the plane turning 360+ degrees..

Guess if thats the case, it is a bug.. If not, it's the wind..

Mike

[ATAG_Doc]

True, that's the typical behaviour of a taildragger plane; it faces to the wind. I fly a CAP10 in reality and behaves like that, I can assure it! :)

You csan see what happens by wind here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFkvBhkQxw

At 5:30 I receive a windgust from the left and plane goes in that way. It's not torque, I had already pushed right rudder, so I had to push more.

I would be ok ok ok dude shut up. Help me out here my hand is hot. I got a 6 pack in the cooler behind my seat. Make yourself useful.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Short pathetic video i made now:

spfYapxpBsY

10 m/s wind. All Ok here with winds. I'll test if some bug accurs that makes plane spins + 360º.

[Robotic Pope]

[QUOTE=Catseye;331391]

Just apply brakes and the "bug" goes away...

You do not understand: wind act pushing the side of the aircraft. The barriers to block wind don't exists in simulated CloD physical world, neither "chocks in" state like IL-2 1946, I guess. So, when you start mission in strong cross wind, your light plane will start to spin. Normal.

I think you don't understand. These are not planes made of paper, they have weight and friction on the wheels when stationary. Yes, it may well be the wind that is spinning the planes but the fact that the wind is spinning the plans while stationary has to be a bug. Maybe somthing like the wheels have no friction in reverse, that would probably do it. Edit: scratch that, of course youd end up being blown backward on the ground at stupid speed lol.

[LoBiSoMeM]

[QUOTE=LoBiSoMeM;331393]

I think you don't understand. These are not planes made of paper, they have weight and friction on the wheels when stationary. Yes, it may well be the wind that is spinning the planes but the fact that the wind is spinning the plans while stationary has to be a bug. Maybe somthing like the wheels have no friction in reverse, that would probably do it.

No, it's not a bug. Just maybe overmodeled, but one Spitfire has a rotating tailwheel and a big vertical stabilizer, and it's not an 747.

And - please - look:

B2aDeIaG6po

Respect winds, please! :-D

[Robotic Pope]

If something is overmodeled in a sim it can be called a bug.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

These are not planes made of paper, they have weight and friction on the wheels when stationary. Yes, it may well be the wind that is spinning the planes but the fact that the wind is spinning the plans while stationary has to be a bug. Maybe something like the wheels have no friction in reverse, that would probably do it.
Agreed..

The coefficient of friction seems to be too low..

That is why this bug seems so odd.. In that it kind of acts like wind.. but it kind of doesn't either..

I mean sure in high winds I would expect the spit to move..

If the tires are aired up to max and it was sitting on a slick cement runway..

But in a grass field?

Something just does not feel right about that

[ACE-OF-ACES]

If something is overmodeled in a sim it can be called a bug.
Agreed 100%

[SEE]

Maybe sometime we can have Working Windsocks - if there is wind I want to know its direction and how damned windy it is .......:grin:

[LoBiSoMeM]

Agreed..

The coefficient of friction seems to be too low..

That is why this bug seems so odd.. In that it kind of acts like wind.. but it kind of doesn't either..

I mean sure in high winds I would expect the spit to move..

If the tires are aired up to max and it was sitting on a slick cement runway..

But in a grass field?

Something just does not feel right about that

Decide yourself: you are a science man or a "seems to be" man? ;)

I really don't know in wich airspeed and angle one WWII Spitfire will start to spin, and in all the other variables, like terrain, etc.

But the rough behavior of wind is OK. And a Spitfire isn't a 747: it's not that heavy.

AGAIN people here will start some flame war about nothing: people believed that aircraft spin for nothing... Some said that is because of wind acting... Some believe that wind don't look ok, because can't taxi... I post a video when I can taxi... And here we go... "In that it kind of acts like wind.. but it kind of doesn't either"...

Funny as hell!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Decide yourself: you are a science man or a "seems to be" man? ;)

I really don't know in wich airspeed and angle one WWII Spitfire will start to spin, and in all the other variables, like terrain, etc.

But the rough behavior of wind is OK. And a Spitfire isn't a 747: it's not that heavy.

AGAIN people here will start some flame war about nothing: people believed that aircraft spin for nothing... Some said that is because of wind acting... Some believe that wind don't look ok, because can't taxi... I post a video when I can taxi... And here we go... "In that it kind of acts like wind.. but it kind of doesn't either"...

Funny as hell!
That is your opinion and your welcome to it!

Sorry if it upsets you that I dont agree with it

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Maybe sometime we can have Working Windsocks - if there is wind I want to know its direction and how damned windy it is .......:grin:
Thought there was windsocks in CoD? Or am I thinking of RoF?

[LoBiSoMeM]

That is your opinion and your welcome to it!

Sorry if it upsets you that I dont agree with it

I'm ok with the fact that you don't agree with logical arguments and videos. I'm used to it. Not upseted at all.

I'm glad that now you can turn your plane in CloD in a full 360º turn in strong wind conditions. Maybe now you can takeoff upwind too!

I'm happy to help! Now you can focus in all flaws of 46 and CloD FMs.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I'm ok with the fact that you don't agree with logical arguments and videos. I'm used to it. Not upseted at all.

I'm glad that now you can turn your plane in CloD in a full 360º turn in strong wind conditions. Maybe now you can takeoff upwind too!

I'm happy to help!
If saying that makes you feel better.. more power to you!

[SEE]

there are but do they work? If the sock is pointing to the grass and my Spit starts friggin turning it aint the damned wind for sure ............:grin:

[Catseye]

[QUOTE=Catseye;331391]

Just apply brakes and the "bug" goes away...

You do not understand: wind act pushing the side of the aircraft. The barriers to block wind don't exists in simulated CloD physical world, neither "chocks in" state like IL-2 1946, I guess. So, when you start mission in strong cross wind, your light plane will start to spin. Normal.

I'm going to test and see just how far the aircraft will turn. If it is wind affect on the fuselage, then it should stop turning when the nose comes directly into the wind. If it keeps turning further, then there is a problem with coding.

I'll post results.

Cheers

[NedLynch]

Hmmm....just tried this again in the cross country mission.
The spit didn't move before engine start, but as soon as the prop started spinning the plane started rotating as well, brakes seem to work in stopping the rotation.
So maybe it's a torque effect?

[LoBiSoMeM]

there are but do they work? If the sock is pointing to the grass and my Spit starts friggin turning it aint the damned wind for sure ............:grin:

Yes... It works...

One point that I really don't understand is why people don't go to FMB and just test things...

I'm saying since a long time ago that this sim engine is really cool... But people now are asking if windsocks works in CloD? Yes, at least the windsock strong works ok, animated, pointing the direction and strenght of winds... But it's a Windsock STRONG (really strong in CloD, ACE maybe can tweak the "WM" of this object someday), so, it will always "pointing to the grass" if you aren't in the middle of a hurricane... http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23586

And for the other guy, I posted a video showing tha plane turning until face the wind... Really, I don't know what people want sometimes...

Strange!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So maybe it's a torque effect?
Hey Ned

No it is not the torque.. because the Spit will sit and spin with the engine off.. Not on all maps.. but some.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Hey Ned

No it is not the torque.. because the Spit will sit and spin with the engine off.. Not on all maps.. but some.

Yes, some maps with wind or with unlevel surface...

By the way... 60Km/h winds + windsocks + smoke in bugged CloD...

1SOsXC58GqM

We reach the point when WIND is a bug! Thanks God we don't have dynamic weather yeat...

[NedLynch]

Hey Ned

No it is not the torque.. because the Spit will sit and spin with the engine off.. Not on all maps.. but some.

I see, just a thought of mine. After having the Spit (and the Hurricane in the cross country mission) spin not before but after engine start makes me detract from my earlier thought about the wind as well.
The 109 in the same mission pretty much didn't spin, so maybe it's just something with the british fighters that need to be ironed out.

[LoBiSoMeM]

I give up... remove the wind of the sim, please.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So looking at the responses thus far there seems two groups that belive in one of the two statements

1) A mild wind should be able to cause a spit to sit-n-spin in the middle of a grass field
2) A mild wind should not be able to cause a spit to sit-n-spin in the middle of a grass field

Granted some have provided videos as proof, but most have nothing to do with the topic at hand. The closest video to the topic at hand shows an airliner flexing and twisting in the wind.. but not moving. Now before you consider that as proof.. Take a close look at the title of the video, i.e.

EXTREME WIND at Keflavik airport...

Now I think it is safe to say that everyone agrees a Spitfire will move in EXTREME WINDS when sitting on a slick cement runway

But again that example does not relate to what is being seen in the game

What we are seeing in the game is a 4,000+lb Spitfire sitting in a filed of grass, engine off, spinning around in what appears to be far less than EXTREME WINDS. I think Catseye nailed it by pointing out that the 'symptom' is that of the friction between the tires and the ground being too small, which in turn allows the plane to spin freely. With that said, which of the two groups do you fall into?

[LoBiSoMeM]

So looking at the responses thus far there seems two groups that belive in one of the two statements

1) A mild wind should be able to cause a spit to sit-n-spin in the middle of a grass field
2) A mild wind should not be able to cause a spit to sit-n-spin in the middle of a grass field

Granted some have provided videos as proof, but most have nothing to do with the topic at hand. The closest video to the topic at hand shows an airliner flexing and twisting in the wind.. but not moving. Now before you consider that as proof.. Take a close look at the title of the video, i.e.

EXTREME WIND at Keflavik airport...

Now I think it is safe to say that everyone agrees a Spitfire will move in EXTREME WINDS when sitting on a slick cement runway

But again that example does not relate to what is being seen in the game

What we are seeing in the game is a 4,000+lb Spitfire sitting in a filed of grass, engine off, spinning around in what appears to be far less than EXTREME WINDS. I think Catseye nailed it by pointing out that the 'symptom' is that of the friction between the tires and the ground being too small, which in turn allows the plane to spin freely. With that said, which of the two groups do you fall into?

In the group that don't assume that all the "spinning issue" was a bug, even without think a minute about WIND... And the even minor group of people that goes to FMB test things, and know that your "minor" wind isn't so "minor"... And we don't have all your "friction"assumed in a TAILWHEEL of a Spitfire... Maybe we need just some tweak, but isn't something "strange" as you all assume in the begining of the topic. Simple as that.

Test more the game and talk less in forums.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Oh..

Your back?

I thought you said you gave up?

Anyway glad you back!

So, based on your responce.. Ill put you down as being in group #1

[ACE-OF-ACES]

even without think a minute about WIND...
Hey LoBiSoMeM

I think you may have me confused with someone else?

In that as you can see from my first post in this thread, i.e.


Hard to tell, but it looked like the tail got into a low spot and 'the wind' (?) was just not strong enough to push it anymore.. That or the plane was 'in line' with the wind?

I did think a minute about wind

As a mater of fact I think if you take the time to read my posts, as opposed to glazing over them with your preconceived notions, you will see that wind was considered in each of my posts.

I hope that helps clear things up for you a bit!

Or put it your way.. Read more talk less in forums

[Catseye]

[QUOTE=Catseye;331391]

Just apply brakes and the "bug" goes away...

You do not understand: wind act pushing the side of the aircraft. The barriers to block wind don't exists in simulated CloD physical world, neither "chocks in" state like IL-2 1946, I guess. So, when you start mission in strong cross wind, your light plane will start to spin. Normal.

Ok, I did an FMB evaluation (quick), placing the wind at different angles and different strengths at ground level. At 20m/s the aircraft really "snaps" the nose into the wind. (tail swings). At 10m/s it moves slowly until aligned head into the wind. If no wind, the aircraft does not move until engine starts, then slow gyro swing.

Sooooo, LoBiSoMeM is correct in identifying the wind. However, I fall into the camp with Ace of Aces in that there may be a coeficient of wheel drag that may be modeled a little too liberally. (MY opinion.) Seems to me that a 7 tonne aircraft should be a little more resistant to a wind of 10m/s. Thats about as fast as an olympic sprinter.

So, both of you guys are on the right track. Mine is only an observation without any imperical data to go on. So for me, the devs are the guys to evaluate it if it is brought to their attention.

Good flying chaps.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

and know that your "minor" wind isn't so "minor"...
Well when two people disagree on a word like 'minor wind speed', I find it helpful to apply a number to the value when you can..

And in this case we can (see below).

But first lets take a look at Catseye's testing where he said..

At 20m/s the aircraft really "snaps" the nose into the wind. (tail swings). At 10m/s it moves slowly until aligned head into the wind

Where

19kt = 22mph = 36kph = 10mps

Now lets apply a value to to "minor wind speed".. And not just any number, but one from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, i.e.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/fsa/2003/jan/32-35.pdf
The Australian Bureau of Meteorology issues airport warnings that carry alerts for winds with a mean speed of 34kt or greater and wind gusts of 42kt or greater. The warnings are issued for most major civil aerodromes.

Where

34kt = 39mph = 63kph = 18mps

Note that a 'warning' does not even go out in the 'real world' until the wind speed is nearly twice the wind speed that is causing the ingame Spitfire to sit-n-spin

Also take into consideration..

Most civilian airports have much lighter aircraft parked
Most civilian airports are made of cement runways not grass

And I 'think' you will begin to see 'the point view' of the people in category #2 below

1) People who belive a mild wind should be able to cause a spit to sit-n-spin in the middle of a grass field
2) People who belive a mild wind should NOT be able to cause a spit to sit-n-spin in the middle of a grass field

I hope that helps you 'see' it from our point of view!

[TUCKIE_JG52]

That's a different question.

One question is if the plane should face the wind. The answer is yes.

The other question is... how many speed of wind is needed to face the wind in a grass field?

Well, obviously the speed of wind needed will be high, since plane weights and it's wheels have friction, plane will not rotate except in case of a very strong wind.

This weekend I'll fly a real taildragger again but from a grass field. If there's some wind I'll do the test to see what happens ;)


Anyway, most of the things we are discussing in this post will be adressed, since Luthier told that the taxiing behaviour will be corrected (I hope, introducing propwash and some more friction to the ground when static).

[TUCKIE_JG52]

No propwash at startup. The prop can't be adjusted fine or coarse until it warms up. The prop appears to be in a feathered position until it responds to the coarse or fine controls after about 3-5 minutes of warmup. Then the propwash starts to work.

I was not talking about startup. In the video there are cuts, so I assume the plane started to taxi after warming up, but not in real time of the video.

Just see the 2:30 minute and you'll see that. When the B25 shows me its back, after a couple of secons I receive the propwash, it is clearly heard, and as I said, its force almost throw me to the ground.

[SNAFU]

I always set windspeed to 0 in the FMB and my 109 always turns left, never right after spawning - strange kind of wind. :confused:

[sorak]

Im pretty sure this is a bug.. What he is specifically talking about, I have seen this too and this does not behave like normal wind.

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Maybe this FMB feature does not work properly, I've observed that temp and pressure are random on each scenario, maybe wind has some random component too...

[Ataros]

Making and testing online missions I fixed Spitfire rotation issue by reducing wind AND gust power to 1-2 maximum AND setting different direction for them.

Planes also rotate when spawn on an inclined surface btw. Pay attention to this, the incline is often hardly noticeable.

Brakes in British planes require different control key than in German planes (3 keys set up in total for all planes).

Not a bug.

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Making and testing online missions I fixed Spitfire rotation issue by reducing wind AND gust power to 1-2 maximum AND setting different direction for them.

Planes also rotate when spawn on an inclined surface btw. Pay attention to this, the incline is often hardly noticeable.

Brakes in British planes require different control key than in German planes (3 keys set up in total for all planes).

Not a bug.


True it all, must take into account :)

[Tree_UK]

Thought there was windsocks in CoD? Or am I thinking of RoF?

Oleg promised windsocks, but they got blown away in the dynamic weather, the spit spinning thing is a bug, its that simple. Wherever I play (online servers) the spit spins as soon as I spawn, nothing to do with prop wash.

[pupo162]

i bleieve it is a bug.

i Have it every time i set up a Online flight, and my plane jsut slides or spins, like it was on a icefield.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Oleg promised windsocks, but they got blown away in the dynamic weather, the spit spinning thing is a bug, its that simple. Wherever I play (online servers) the spit spins as soon as I spawn, nothing to do with prop wash.

Yes, Oleg promised and delivered...

1SOsXC58GqM

This guy is a joke... You don't even read all posts an jump here ASAP to talk crap! Congratulations! Number one critic of CloD! :cool:

Read all other posts and you will see why Spits spins as soon as you spawn...

To the "new" wind guy, the FM expert: nice! Now you know how winds works in CloD. Maybe some tweak is needed. I believe that smoke animation can be more affected by wind, and maybe less effect over Spitfires grounded. We need more work on this point.

But don't change the subject... You AGAIN don't go in FMB to test things and jump here to talk a lot. You never learn. You don't even test in FMB if the plane stops spinning facing wind and now will bother the world as a expert in winds behaviour.

Bye!

[LoBiSoMeM]

Making and testing online missions I fixed Spitfire rotation issue by reducing wind AND gust power to 1-2 maximum AND setting different direction for them.

Planes also rotate when spawn on an inclined surface btw. Pay attention to this, the incline is often hardly noticeable.

Brakes in British planes require different control key than in German planes (3 keys set up in total for all planes).

Not a bug.

Yes. As I said EARLIER, maybe just some tweak in wind acting over some objects... If some talk about it like a "bug" because don't saw first how wind works in CloD, well, be happy!

Out of this NOW stupid discussion.

[SG1_Lud]

There is no need to go out Lobi, you're posting valid arguments, is just that there are others that believe different.

IMO Tuckie centered the question very well in this post

That's a different question.

One question is if the plane should face the wind. The answer is yes.

The other question is... how many speed of wind is needed to face the wind in a grass field?

Well, obviously the speed of wind needed will be high, since plane weights and it's wheels have friction, plane will not rotate except in case of a very strong wind.

This weekend I'll fly a real taildragger again but from a grass field. If there's some wind I'll do the test to see what happens ;)


Anyway, most of the things we are discussing in this post will be adressed, since Luthier told that the taxiing behaviour will be corrected (I hope, introducing propwash and some more friction to the ground when static).

Everybody on the same page now?

[LoBiSoMeM]

There is no need to go out Lobi, you're posting valid arguments, is just that there are others that believe different.

IMO Tuckie centered the question very well in this post



Everybody on the same page now?

We are, but the boring naysayers will never leave page 1... :cool:

We need tweaks in taxiing, in smoke and windsock animations, etc. Things already know by MG as Tuckie said.

As we need tweaks in FMs, in DM, in graphics, sound... The initial question was answered: why does my spit spins around before engine start. No need to more discussion.

If ACE put around +40m/s wind speed in FMB and watch the Spitfire goes away like a kite, he will understand how funny is read his writing all this numbers... Because the first thing I do to test winds was try some +100km/h winds... Not so much weight in these Spits, maybe - MAYBE... :-D But not "so wrong" to me... Maybe just a little bit more friction, because planes don't "takeoff" in winds bellow stall speed... ;)

100km/h winds test in planes without brakes and engines idle:

9xC_7CuUbQU

Fun with maximum CloD wind:

X2vAn6z5f-w

... and we don't have yeat wind sound, so the spinning is strange, because we can't know if we have wind blowing or not... But, again, I don't see anything so wrong... Maybe it's because is CloD... If it's RoF people will be amazed with wind acting over aircrafts... Freud can explain!!!

P.S. This graphics engine is really crap... Look at the shadows cast by smoke blowed in the wind... LOL! I love this "bugged" sim!

[Tree_UK]

Yes, Oleg promised and delivered...

1SOsXC58GqM

This guy is a joke... You don't even read all posts an jump here ASAP to talk crap! Congratulations! Number one critic of CloD! :cool:

Read all other posts and you will see why Spits spins as soon as you spawn...

To the "new" wind guy, the FM expert: nice! Now you know how winds works in CloD. Maybe some tweak is needed. I believe that smoke animation can be more affected by wind, and maybe less effect over Spitfires grounded. We need more work on this point.

But don't change the subject... You AGAIN don't go in FMB to test things and jump here to talk a lot. You never learn. You don't even test in FMB if the plane stops spinning facing wind and now will bother the world as a expert in winds behaviour.

Bye!

Yes we have windsocks, we know that, but do they work, Ive not seen a windsock blowing whilst my spit is spinning around. Now take a chill pill big boy.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Yes we have windsocks, we know that, but do they work, Ive not seen a windsock blowing whilst my spit is spinning around. Now take a chill pill big boy.

Unbelievable...

[PeterPanPan]

The bottom line is that this spinning behaviour just isn't right. I have never seen a real or virtual light aircraft start spinning with it's engine off in the way it sometimes happens in CoD. Even if (and I'm not saying it is) it is the wind or the incline or whatever, it just isn't right that you would climb into an aircraft that is spinning. Total immersion killer. If this was happening in reality (for whatever reason) you would chock it, tie it down or have your crew hold the wings before you got in. The simple fact that a Spit, with engine off, should start spinning as if it is on a perfectly smooth motorized vehicle turntable is enough for me to say it is a bug. It is an inaccurate model of a real world situation.

PPP

[Blackdog_kt]

Yes we have windsocks, we know that, but do they work, Ive not seen a windsock blowing whilst my spit is spinning around. Now take a chill pill big boy.

Watch the video mate, they work.


Making and testing online missions I fixed Spitfire rotation issue by reducing wind AND gust power to 1-2 maximum AND setting different direction for them.

Planes also rotate when spawn on an inclined surface btw. Pay attention to this, the incline is often hardly noticeable.

Brakes in British planes require different control key than in German planes (3 keys set up in total for all planes).

Not a bug.

Pretty much this, thanks for saving me the time to type it all over again.

Is it possible that the ground friction as relates to aircraft weight needs some tweaking? Very possibly so.

The basic premise of this behaviour however is just like it should be. Try the cross country mission with a fully loaded blenheim (doesn't spin until you start the engines, then it spins due to prop effects), then try it witha Tiger Moth (turns to the right with the engine off but stops once it's aligned with the wind).

Plus, if people don't know how to work their brakes it confuses them further. I'm not going to retype everything from scratch, there's a sticky FAQ on the front page explaining brakes and other controls ;-)

We've got tons of information collected by various people who spent their time testing instead of playing so that the rest can benefit from it and overcome the lacking documentation. Use that information already people :-P

[LoBiSoMeM]

The bottom line is that this spinning behaviour just isn't right. I have never seen a real or virtual light aircraft start spinning with it's engine off in the way it sometimes happens in CoD. Even if (and I'm not saying it is) it is the wind or the incline or whatever, it just isn't right that you would climb into an aircraft that is spinning. Total immersion killer. If this was happening in reality (for whatever reason) you would chock it, tie it down or have your crew hold the wings before you got in. The simple fact that a Spit, with engine off, should start spinning as if it is on a perfectly smooth motorized vehicle turntable is enough for me to say it is a bug. It is an inaccurate model of a real world situation.

PPP

Start with "brakes on" by default? ;)

I have an axis for my wheel brakes. I keep it in full brakes until start taxi. I don't have this "spinnig in idle with Spitfire bug"... Because I always start with brakes on.

If people want a "Chocks in" option, with animated ground crew to remove shocks, will be REALLY nice! But claim that it's a "bug" if you can't start game with brakes on... I don't know if it's right... I have my doubts...

To Tree, my fully working windsock and my non-spinning Tiger Moth with 0 m/s wind...

ZKHwYtlKP9M

It's so "immersion killer" have winds acting... :|

PS: but RoF one is cooler:

bzbGZA3SfnI

[JG53Frankyboy]

thx for making these windvideos , they made my day so far :D

[LoBiSoMeM]

thx for making these windvideos , they made my day so far :D

We can enjoy a good flight SIM! :grin:

Someone can try flip a bus in a storm now? I had to go now! Wind acts in ground units too? :-P

[PeterPanPan]

Start with "brakes on" by default? ;)

Didn't know you could do this. Is that an option in game? Will try that as a quick fix - thanks.

However, my point is that even if in theory the aircraft should be moving because of wind or incline, it just feels wrong. The smooth bumpless/jerkless movement seems wrong, the lack of airframe/ground noise seems incongruous and the lack of wind noise and visual clues that it is windy or slopey doesn't fit with the movement. In addition to all that, IMHO, a Spit weighing 3 tonnes just shouldn't move like it does, with engine off, on what looks like flat ground on what looks like a decent weather day in a sheltered blast pen. This is why I conclude that something isn't right with this part of the game. Just my HO, of course.

PPP

[JG52Krupi]

Your right something is wrong but this patch should change that.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Didn't know you could do this. Is that an option in game? Will try that as a quick fix - thanks.

However, my point is that even if in theory the aircraft should be moving because of wind or incline, it just feels wrong. The smooth bumpless/jerkless movement seems wrong, the lack of airframe/ground noise seems incongruous and the lack of wind noise and visual clues that it is windy or slopey doesn't fit with the movement. In addition to all that, IMHO, a Spit weighing 3 tonnes just shouldn't move like it does, with engine off, on what looks like flat ground on what looks like a decent weather day in a sheltered blast pen. This is why I conclude that something isn't right with this part of the game. Just my HO, of course.

PPP

The first step is wind SOUND. We need that. Second, more wind CLUES, like windsocks, etc. We have animated trees and grass, I'll test this... I really don't know how a Spitfire with tailwheel unlocked and brakes off handle medium wind. Let's wait for next patch and see if we at least have wind sound. Will be nice! ;-)

[JG52Krupi]

Dude a spitfire is a fairly heavy aircraft... not a kite.

[Madfish]

It should be fairly easy to get some qualified answers from experienced pilots that still fly these planes today.

15meter/sec is actually fast but I'd say it's half of what I'd expect to cause such a strong rotation. At 5m/s a plane shouldn't turn like that at all I feel.
Here's a little calculator to translate the values: http://www.unitarium.com/speed

I'd just ask the pilots of vintage planes though, anyone has got some contacts? It's the easiest and most reliable way to fix this. Eventually it can even be tested at lower wind speeds.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Dude a spitfire is a fairly heavy aircraft... not a kite.

Dude, try to spawn with BRAKES ON. The problem is just in there... I can taxi/takeoff and land with + 100km/h in a Spitifire in CloD, wind is really ok.

The problem is spawn with brakes off, tailwheel unlocked... It's a sim... We just need a option to spawn always with "chocks in" or with DEFAULT "brakes on".

If you spawn without "brakes on", the sim will understand that your aircraft spawn in world like "Pluft! I'm here from Wonderland!". I'll make a short video to explain... Just a moment! :)

EDIT: look at this video. I started with brakes on (i assign an axis to brakes):

iS1FmGZpZbk

As you can see, all ok and REALLY cool to fly in strong wind!!! The problem is that we don't have the option (must be default, maybe) to start really parked with full brakes applied. The way it's now, if you spawn without brakes on, the sim understand that your aircraft spawns in the world with wind acting over it and AFTER that the friction with ground will happens... It's like the plane starts in the air... so, all the inertia is against your aircraft... But you can solve that just spawning with brakes on... I don't believe that is anything wrong with friction or weight of planes, just the fact that we sometimes spawn without brakes on - and in missions with stronger wind, we noticed this more. Simple to solve in a patch (spawn ALWAYS with brakes on/really parked aircraft) or by user side:

- Spawn with brakes on!

Not so big deal. No need to hear a lot of "it's a bug" or people doing a lot of calculations and elaborated theories... What I know is that now a lot of people can enjoy the dynamic wind feature in CloD - really nice modeled, I must say. But SpeedTree maybe must have "wind speed related" animations... will be great! It's possible?

But keep this in mind by now:

SPAWN WITH BRAKES ON!!!!

:)

[JG52Krupi]

It's not a problem for me dude, but it's a bug.

[Ze-Jamz]

Agreed... that aint no wind

[LoBiSoMeM]

It's not a problem for me dude, but it's a bug.

Yes, it's a bug "dude"...

Ilya, you are plain right about "community communications" matters... :-P

I give up! :cool:

[LoBiSoMeM]

Agreed... that aint no wind

No, it's a bug. :rolleyes:

For people who can't fly in a flight sim, wind acting is a bug.

Go fly Wings of Prey, please.

[Ze-Jamz]

Yes, it's a bug "dude"...

Ilya, you are plain right about "community communications" matters... :-P

I give up! :cool:

Mate maybe you should 'give up' :)

Go n check out Sukhoi forums, there are also posts about it....

[Ze-Jamz]

No, it's a bug. :rolleyes:

For people who can't fly in a flight sim, wind acting is a bug.

Go fly Wings of Prey, please.

Erm....No

[LoBiSoMeM]

Mate maybe you should 'give up' :)

Go n check out Sukhoi forums, there are also posts about it....

No need to do that. I know that we have problems with aircraft spawn in medium/high wind conditions without brakes applied. But I believe that I explain clearly what happens, with videos.

But people can't understand words or videos here. Just keep talking "bug" until 2012...

Be happy. JusT do me a favour: show me in this video where is your "bug"?!?!?!

iS1FmGZpZbk

I never had this "bug" because I'm used to spawn ALWAYS with brakes on. I explain how to solve this issue, but again people like to be negative as hell here. And don't use 0.1% of the sim potential... A bunch of "gammers" claiming for a combat flight simulation...

Blackdog, sorry, but some here must go to... No, I'll meditate now... OHHHHHMMMMMM... Again:

SPAWN AIRCRAFT WITH BRAKES ON AND YOUR "BUG" GOES AWAY!!!!

[JG53Frankyboy]

this spwan with brakes is a workaround like deleting trees to avoid loosing sound in MP. The influence of the wind is too strong, sure it shoud have some.
But how ever you call it, WIP or whatever - in general term its a mistake/error/failure/bug to be edited.......

[JG52Krupi]

So you agree it's a bug and you have found a work around, but it's still a bug or would you say the no sound problem and trees off work around is not a bug either...

[Catseye]

I never had this "bug" because I'm used to spawn ALWAYS with brakes on. I explain how to solve this issue, but again people like to be negative as hell here. And don't use 0.1% of the sim potential... A bunch of "gammers" claiming for a combat flight simulation...

Blackdog, sorry, but some here must go to... No, I'll meditate now... OHHHHHMMMMMM... Again:

SPAWN AIRCRAFT WITH BRAKES ON AND YOUR "BUG" GOES AWAY!!!!

The question for me is: At what point of ground wind speed does it require a pilot of a Spitfire to ensure that brakes are applied at spawning? It would be great if when spawning the parking brakes and/or chocks would be already engaged (as I see IRL) and had to be commanded to be released/removed. The commands are there in the sim already. Again, as has been said a couple of times in this thread, there seems to be (in the opinion of many flyers) that the aircraft swings very easily at low wind speed. The question is: would the devs pls evaluate the user concerns in this area.

ps. The art of an argument is debating the issues - not to personalize it by attacking the person/group making their argument. As soon as this happens, you have lost the argument regardless of how precise your information is. If either side has failed to convince the other of their point of view - then turn it over to mediation. In this case the devs. (If they have the time!!)

I think it is time to put this thread to bed!

[LoBiSoMeM]

this spwan with brakes is a workaround like deleting trees to avoid loosing sound in MP. The influence of the wind is too strong, sure it shoud have some.
But how ever you call it, WIP or whatever - in general term its a mistake/error/failure/bug to be edited.......

No, it isn't. If people spend some time trying to UDERSTAND things instead than "it's a bug! fix it!", you guys will undestand that the problem is in spawn logic, not "influence of the wind is too strong"...

If you spawn properly parked and the sim "understand" that, all runs ok, no "loose spins", all normal.

But if you guys are happy to just say "it's a bug", well... what can I do? Just don't assume like a LOT OF PEOPLE that the problem is "wind acting too strong", "planes not heavy enough", "friction wrong"... Test things more, or just show some RESPECT for people who do that. I takeoff and landed at almost a HURRICANE! And made a video showing that... If wind was acting too strong my Spitfire never could do that.

Do something usefull for bugs discovery, people. I believe I helped some that not spawn with aircraft wiyh brakes on and some others to see how great dynamic wind works in CloD. Some others will remain with "i was right" crusade, and I don't give a $#$@ for them, because arguments aren't lost if we send to hell some boring person. They remain.

[LoBiSoMeM]

The question for me is: At what point of ground wind speed does it require a pilot of a Spitfire to ensure that brakes are applied at spawning?

In the real world? I believe much more stronger winds than in CloD. And I explain why I believe that's happens: CloD spawn "unparked" aircrafts as if they are in air, not grounded.

The problem I saw so far now is that, not how wind act with aircrafts. If you start with brakes on and just after remove brakes, your Spitfire will not spin like crazy. The wind influence will be much like in "real world", even taxiing.

Just that i'm trying to say for a log time ago... And isn't so hard to understand, I guess. But people need to test to understand, and maybe discover some other issues regards spawn/wind, not this broken record... "it's a bug"...

Do some testing and maybe you can find other things. I'll try more after lunch!

[JG52Krupi]

Dude they are reworking the ground physics and the likes because they are currently BUGGED next your gonna tell me flying ships are a common sight in real life.

[JG53Frankyboy]

CloD spawn "unparked" aircrafts as if they are in air, not grounded.

too

influence of the wind is too strong


where is the difference, ok, the second sentence is missing the "on parked aircraft" - but i set that as given because the whole topic was about parked aircraft on the ground.....

[Madfish]

Both sides are right.

The guys who say "planes shouldn't spawn with breaks on" please go play an arcade game. Are you leaving your car without handbrake or gear in standing somewhere? Especially if the area is not flat (wind effect)? Come on...

But then again, a plane turning like that at 5m/s? I doubt it.

But I'll just repeat myself here: Let's just ask vintage plane pilots and listen to their experiences!

I believe the current wind effects while on the ground are too strong. But yes, planes should spawn with brakes applied and tail wheel locked.

[JG53Frankyboy]

does the tailwheel look work in CoD anyway ? i know there is a command.
Does any of the CoD flyables had one historicaly ?

[LoBiSoMeM]

Both sides are right.

The guys who say "planes shouldn't spawn with breaks on" please go play an arcade game. Are you leaving your car without handbrake or gear in standing somewhere? Especially if the area is not flat (wind effect)? Come on...

But then again, a plane turning like that at 5m/s? I doubt it.

But I'll just repeat myself here: Let's just ask vintage plane pilots and listen to their experiences!

I believe the current wind effects while on the ground are too strong. But yes, planes should spawn with brakes applied and tail wheel locked.


My God, Madfish... I wrote a lot of postings saying that IF YOU SPAWN WITH BRAKES ON THE INFLUENCE OF THE WIND OVER PARKED AIRCRAFT ISN'T TOO STRONG!

Your Spitfire will not turn like wihout inertia if you remove brakes after spawn. Is that what's I'm talking about. Your plane will not start to goes backwards in 70-80km/h winds if you remove brakes AFTER spawn.

The problem is in spawn logic. I'll post AGAIN the video with takeoff and landing in REALLY strong winds, more than 100km/h...

iS1FmGZpZbk

Let's move on into the subject, please... The tailwheel is one cool... It's really necessary all this wind to spin an aircraft with tailwheel loose? I don't know...

[JG52Krupi]

But the problem is that if you release the brakes the aircraft can begin to slide again.

[LoBiSoMeM]

But the problem is that if you release the brakes the aircraft can begin to slide again.

Test it yourself. Don't happens this way ;)

Here is the bug, not in wind acting in general. Your aircraft only will goes backwards in REALLY strong wind, as in real world. In this last video, as you can see, after landing i removed brakes and reduce throttle to idle facing more than 100km/h wind, and my Spitfire remais in the same spot! :-P

[JG53Frankyboy]

an additional idea would be to spawn alwasy with chocks - like in IL2 on carriers.
That would free your hands for starting operatons abs simulate the use of real chocks ans supporting groundcrew......

[ACE-OF-ACES]

That's a different question.
Well it is not a question, it is an observation..

The observation being that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology does NOT send out warnigs to civil airports for wind speeds less than 18mps (39mph)


One question is if the plane should face the wind. The answer is yes.
The question?

I don't recall anyone asking that question?

But at least we agree on the answer, in that I pointed out in my 1st post in this thread that the plane should stop turning once it is 'in line' with the wind. Assuming it is the wind that is causing it to spin.


The other question is... how many speed of wind is needed to face the wind in a grass field?
In essance we really don't need to know the exact number.. What we do know is the Australian Bureau of Meteorology does NOT send out warnigs to civil airports for wind speeds less than 18mps (39mph). Which means there is no fear of a plane moving due to winds less than 18mps (39mph).


Well, obviously the speed of wind needed will be high, since plane weights and it's wheels have friction, plane will not rotate except in case of a very strong wind.
Agreed

Which means there is a 'bug' in IL-2 CoD because we are seeing planes move, turn, spin at speeds far less than 18mps (39mph).


This weekend I'll fly a real taildragger again but from a grass field. If there's some wind I'll do the test to see what happens
That would be interesting, but, does this tail dragger have the same surface area and weight of a WWII configured Spitfire? If not I don't see how the test results will prove anything one way or another.


Anyway, most of the things we are discussing in this post will be adressed, since Luthier told that the taxiing behaviour will be corrected (I hope, introducing propwash and some more friction to the ground when static).
One thing I have learned over the years about software companys is that 'talk is cheap'.. Ill belive it when I.. if I see it! ;)

In Summary
IMHO it is a bug that a WWII configured Spitfire will sit and spin in winds of 10mps (22mph) based on the FACT that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology does NOT send out warnigs to civil airports for wind speeds less than 18mps (39mph). Which means there is no fear of a plane moving due to winds less than 18mps (39mph).

[ACE-OF-ACES]

To the "new" wind guy, the FM expert: nice! Now you know how winds works in CloD.
LoBiSoMeM.. You really need to slow down and read peoples posts before you respond.. Because I knew how wind works before I even posted in this thread.. Which I proved in my very first post in this thread.. Which is why I consider the Spit spinning a bug.. In that wind speeds of 10mps (22mph) or less should NOT cause a 4,000lb+ plane to spin in a grass field.

Maybe some tweak is needed.
At last!

I am glad I was able to change your mind on how wind works! Becuase in your posts prior to my examples you were saying it is NOT a bug.. And now your admiting it needs to be fixxed.

But don't change the subject...
LoBiSoMeM.. You really need to slow down and read peoples posts before you respond.. Because I have been on subject the whole time! And my notes from Australian Bureau of Meteorology are on topic too. The topic being we know the Australian Bureau of Meteorology does NOT send out warnigs to civil airports for wind speeds less than 18mps (39mph). Which means there is no fear of a plane moving due to winds less than 18mps (39mph). Yet we see a 4,000lbs+ Spitfire in game spinning in a grass field, which NOW even you have come around to admit that it is a bug that needs fixxing (tweaking). I am just glad I could assist you in realsing that!

You AGAIN don't go in FMB to test things and jump here to talk a lot. You never learn. You don't even test in FMB if the plane stops spinning facing wind and now will bother the world as a expert in winds behaviour.
Actully I fear it is you that will never learn and talks too much and reads too little. In that in my very 1st post in this thread I pointed out the plane should stop spinning once it is facing into the wind.

In Summary
IMHO it is a bug that a WWII configured Spitfire will sit and spin in winds of 10mps (22mph) based on the FACT that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology does NOT send out warnigs to civil airports for wind speeds less than 18mps (39mph). Which means there is no fear of a plane moving due to winds less than 18mps (39mph).

[ACE-OF-ACES]

but again people like to be negative as hell here.
Is it just me..

Or did this statment make others laugh too? :rolleyes:

[esmiol]

how do you put brake on directly?

i try to config the command brake crew...and don't seem to work :(

[ACE-OF-ACES]

this spwan with brakes is a workaround like deleting trees to avoid loosing sound in MP. The influence of the wind is too strong, sure it shoud have some.
But how ever you call it, WIP or whatever - in general term its a mistake/error/failure/bug to be edited.......+1

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So you agree it's a bug and you have found a work around, but it's still a bug or would you say the no sound problem and trees off work around is not a bug either...Bingo!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

dude they are reworking the ground physics and the likes because they are currently bugged next your gonna tell me flying ships are a common sight in real life.rotfl

[LoBiSoMeM]

how do you put brake on directly?

i try to config the command brake crew...and don't seem to work :(

I use an axis and let it in full before begin spawn in a mission.

ACE, get yourself a lady or man. Maybe five posts to "try" be "cool"?

You need a life ASAP.

[LoBiSoMeM]

IMHO it is a bug that a WWII configured Spitfire will sit and spin in winds of 10mps (22mph) based on the FACT that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology does NOT send out warnigs to civil airports for wind speeds less than 18mps (39mph). Which means there is no fear of a plane moving due to winds less than 18mps (39mph).

Spawn with brakes on... We already move on... "Australian Bureau of Meteorology"... :rolleyes:

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I use an axis and let it in full before begin spawn in a mission.

ACE, get yourself a lady or man. Maybe five posts to "try" be "cool"?

You need a life ASAP.
Oh oh..

I have seen this before.. When Lo realise he is wrong he resorts to personal attacks to take the focus off the fact that he is wrong

Oh well.. This thread was interesting for awhile, too bad these types are allowed to carry on like this

[LoBiSoMeM]

Oh well.. This thread was interesting for awhile, too bad these types are allowed to carry on like this

Testing things and making videos showing stuff of Cliffs of Dover sim?

Yes, people of my kind need to be banned of forums. We need more users like you, with relevant contributions...

[Ze-Jamz]

Testing things and making videos showing stuff of Cliffs of Dover sim?

Yes, people of my kind need to be banned of forums. We need more users like you, with relevant contributions...

Lob...Ok listen

Do you know what a personal attack is?

Because you do it EVERYTIME... do you understand this?

It doesnt do anything for you my friend and people get pi$$ed off real quick and will have no further dealing with you or take anything you say serioulsy..

SO

some friendly advice, yes we like having folks like you around testing and helping out the community..what we DONT want is you always reverting to personal attacks to aid your discussion..

You seem to speak good english so im guessing you understand where im coming from.

like i say, just some friendly advice :)

[Blackdog_kt]

Lobisomem: You make some very good, valid and useful points, but you're putting them forward in an aggressive manner. Stop the personal attacks, just tell people what you tested and what you found out, it's very simple.

Ace: I don't know who started it and frankly by this point i don't care because we're way beyond the point of a justified initial response to a provocative poster. We are now at the point where you make 5 posts in a row to wind him up, you don't even make a single one but clutter up the entire thread.

I don't want to lock this when testing is being done and useful findings are surfacing, so if any moderating is to be done it will be centered on you two and not the thread itself and we all know what this means.

Please, calm your tempers and mind your manners and attitudes somewhat.

I think this is a fair and ample warning to play nice. If you guys don't stop biting on each other's throat i'll have no other choice but to enforce the rules: if i don't do it in this case then i will have no credibility to demand other people to respect the same rules.

Please don't make me start banning grown-up people in a useful thread just because they can't accept different opinions :-P

[ACE-OF-ACES]

We are now at the point where you make 5 posts in a row to wind him up, you don't even make a single one but clutter up the entire thread.
Hardly

But like you said, you don't care.. So from here on out Ill fight fire with fire since the mods are not able or willing to care

[Madfish]

Lobisomem: You make some very good, valid and useful points, but you're putting them forward in an aggressive manner. Stop the personal attacks, just tell people what you tested and what you found out, it's very simple.

Ace: I don't know who started it and frankly by this point i don't care because we're way beyond the point of a justified initial response to a provocative poster. We are now at the point where you make 5 posts in a row to wind him up, you don't even make a single one but clutter up the entire thread.

I don't want to lock this when testing is being done and useful findings are surfacing, so if any moderating is to be done it will be centered on you two and not the thread itself and we all know what this means.

Please, calm your tempers and mind your manners and attitudes somewhat.

I think this is a fair and ample warning to play nice. If you guys don't stop biting on each other's throat i'll have no other choice but to enforce the rules: if i don't do it in this case then i will have no credibility to demand other people to respect the same rules.

Please don't make me start banning grown-up people in a useful thread just because they can't accept different opinions :-P

I wrote it in the thread regarding good moderation, I wrote it in a PM I sent to Alpha. I will write it here again because there is NOTHING worse than moderators openly pointing fingers at forum members. Especially if those posts are not beneficial to the thread in terms of additional content.

Those red posts should be done by PM and nothing else.

Writing in threads is only causing additional stress and not relaxing the situation but making it worse.

Also you can't expect members to always go back to read posts that are maybe long gone because the thread progressed. Often a thread progresses too fast and they will never even see what you wrote. Not in this case but there have been cases. I don't see the meaning of this.

Please, moderators. Could you please get rid of that bad habit? It's really unprofessional and doing nothing good at all. Pretty please?


That said I must admit the thread got way out of hand. I don't think closing it would be such a bad thing since I can't see anything new coming to the table but spam.

Solving this problem is easy:

1) PATCH: Spawn planes with locked tail wheels and brakes on
2) Ask vintage plane pilots about plane behavior during winds
3) Eventually test if the physics engine works right when the new engine is done (until then a big fix would be a waste of time anyways)

[LoBiSoMeM]

Hardly

But like you said, you don't care.. So from here on out Ill fight fire with fire since the mods are not able or willing to care

I'll fight fire with proper modeled wind...

lbm0u8CQsiw

Out of here, will install the beta patch... And the topic must be open, Madfish. We have USEFULL info here.

[Catseye]

[QUOTE=LoBiSoMeM;331773]:

CloD spawn "unparked" aircrafts as if they are in air, not grounded.

QUOTE]

Exactly - you have just agreed to what I was referring to IRL. Planes are parked with parking brakes or chocks in place. I am agreeing with you and hope that the devs have a look at having aircraft spawn with the parking brake or chocks in place so that we have to disengage or remove the chocks before starting to taxi.

[LoBiSoMeM]

[QUOTE=LoBiSoMeM;331773]:

CloD spawn "unparked" aircrafts as if they are in air, not grounded.

QUOTE]

Exactly - you have just agreed to what I was referring to IRL. Planes are parked with parking brakes or chocks in place. I am agreeing with you and hope that the devs have a look at having aircraft spawn with the parking brake or chocks in place so that we have to disengage or remove the chocks before starting to taxi.

Yes, no need to great tweaks in winds or friction. But we need wind SOUND too. Will be nice!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Yes, no need to great tweaks in winds or friction.
Glad to see you finally admited there is a bug that needs fixing.. tweaking.. changing.. adjusting.. what ever you want to call it this week.. Glad I could help!

[LoBiSoMeM]

Glad I could help!

You are always really helpfull! Thanks a lot!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

You are always really helpfull! Thanks a lot!My pleasure! S!

[Blackdog_kt]

Red text is to differentiate between talking as a normal forum member or not: when i'm posting like this i'm just discussing things, when i'm posting like this i'm moderating.

If anyone is willing to put up with having to read every single thread with new posts in all sub-sections of this forum and weed out the posts that break forum rules then be my guest and apply for the job.

Mods call them as they seem them, some prefer PMs, i prefer to keep things out in the open to be able to self-moderate my moderating practices: i can't be picking favorites if i do everything out in the open because people will jump on me and rightly so, it's a way to maintain my own impartiality first and foremost and ensure i treat everyone the same.

There's more than one ways to skin a cat, i have my reasons for going at it the way i do. I'm open to feedback but i can't agree with and follow everything i'm told.

There's also another reason and it's more important to me. I don't know, i have this weird notion that flight sim forums are usually comprised of somewhat older people that can be reasoned with.

I could just as easily save myself some time by handing out a couple of bans and telling people in a PM "two days for now, next time it's permanent". I could certainly have banned both Ace and Lobi 3-4 times each for what they've said on this thread alone (and there's also a rule against questioning moderation on top of it all), but i didn't and in return i get some mild "flak" about the red text. :confused:

Well, if my willingness to lay my cards on the table is not appreciated but instead, mistaken as an OK to bargain with mods against enforcing the rules, maybe i should start doing things the way i'm asked: anyone who causes trouble can disappear in a "covert" manner with a simple PM to the tune of "you broke rule XYZ" and nobody else will know why or for how long. Are you trying to tell me this is what we want here? Because if the majority asks for it to be this way then yes, i'll be obliged to do it that way.

Doesn't make much of a difference to me (apart from saving me tons of time spent reasoning with the most common "offenders"), but it will sure make a lot of difference to some people here ;-)