whens new patch due

[JZG_Con]

hi all , I guess we are all waiting for new patch , what are we at ..at the moment ..14821
THE 109 seems to flip over when turning to get onto spits six , this must be a BUG ...sound is still awful .. I stopped playing this game hope to come back and see progress ..really not happy paying for this sim and it don't work correctly .. been a fan for many years ..but this really has made me think weather to trust ubisoft again...SIX years in the making ...what went wrong ..??? was there a split in development teams , or a fall out over release dates ..what happened....

too many late parties ..lol...:cool:

[pupo162]

join the still waiting group. 63 online now

[Vengeanze]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25222
Read last paragraph.

Two weeks has gone so patch beta is due anytime now but don't hold your breath.
Practice shooting in the meantime or test different loadouts for best effects.

[skouras]

my bet
next week..

[NedLynch]

109 doesn't flip over for me, the aircraft modeling is just a something to get used to, anyway why get into a turning contest with a spit, maybe you are just stalling out over one wing while exeeding the AOA for the 109?

A thing about the sound, since I have a soundblaster card (yeah I know, but it works) I am using alchemy with this game and I have no issues with the sound.

[Troll2k]

On August 6th Luthier stated that a beta would be out in a minimum of two weeks.

To me that means any time between now and the apocalypse in Dec 2012.
And that is for the beta.

[skouras]

lol
maybe you're right :rolleyes:

[Winger]

hi all , I guess we are all waiting for new patch , what are we at ..at the moment ..14821
THE 109 seems to flip over when turning to get onto spits six , this must be a BUG ...sound is still awful .. I stopped playing this game hope to come back and see progress ..really not happy paying for this sim and it don't work correctly .. been a fan for many years ..but this really has made me think weather to trust ubisoft again...SIX years in the making ...what went wrong ..??? was there a split in development teams , or a fall out over release dates ..what happened....

too many late parties ..lol...:cool:

This is called stall... The stream of air flowing above your wing breaks and you loose the lift on that wing. If not properly recovered this can lead into a deadly spin. Its not a bug. Solution is simple. Fly the 109 correct. You cant ever turn with a spit in a 109. Boom and zoom it and he can turn as tight as he wants... wont help him:)

Winger

[tk471138]

LOL at people who thought that a patch or beta was going to be released today...on a saturday....just because we got one forum update was done on a saturday(which can be done at home)

[GF_Mastiff]

Two weeks.

[fireflyerz]

Two Parsec's.

[kristorf]

Out when its out, and not before.......

[Jumo211]

Two weeks... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hisrm4FLBWE

[drewpee]

Any minute now. Try holding your breath, maybe that will help(it's worked for me in the past)

[Helrza]

Two weeks... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hisrm4FLBWE

lmao :D :D :D

[Ze-Jamz]

Two Parsec's.

:)

[Ali Fish]

"when is the new patch due?"

We need to adopt a new stance upon these questions for our own sanity regards discussing it. Thee answer should be

"when its ready"

simple as that.

[Phazon]

I would not be surprised if there was some delay, as some serious tinkering is going on with the game over at Maddox Games. Alot of changes that can easily break parts of the game or introduce new bugs. They want to make sure that the next patch is a solid step forward on all fronts.

I just hope that if they have significant delays, Luthier will be kind enough to give us an update on where things are at so we know they are making progress at least. :)

[drewpee]

I would not be surprised if there was some delay, as some serious tinkering is going on with the game over at Maddox Games. Alot of changes that can easily break parts of the game or introduce new bugs. They want to make sure that the next patch is a solid step forward on all fronts.

I just hope that if they have significant delays, Luthier will be kind enough to give us an update on where things are at so we know they are making progress at least. :)

That's all we need is someone giving a sensible answer.;)

[Vengeanze]

I know from reliable sources that it's in beta now and will be released to the public on...you guessed it...FRIDAAAAAYYYY!!!

[JZG_Con]

i guess its stalling out over one wing , ill go boom and zoom ..has anyone worked out the comms menu , wheres the attack , and cover me , attack my target , im confused what does the menu DO .......

[tintifaxl]

i guess its stalling out over one wing , ill go boom and zoom ..has anyone worked out the comms menu , wheres the attack , and cover me , attack my target , im confused what does the menu DO .......

The radio menu is bugged. Half the commands are missing, because they didn't work and so the devs chose to eliminate them for the time being.

[JZG_Con]

ARRR ...now that makes sence , sorry been away working abroad just got back ...was hoping for a good sim in the making ..with the new patch ..lol...

[NLS61]

I would not be surprised if there was some delay, as some serious tinkering is going on with the game over at Maddox Games. Alot of changes that can easily break parts of the game or introduce new bugs. They want to make sure that the next patch is a solid step forward on all fronts.

I just hope that if they have significant delays, Luthier will be kind enough to give us an update on where things are at so we know they are making progress at least. :)

I like the all fronts remark LOL.
But I cant play the sim as I still have Launcher problems it crashes all the time ;)
I really hope the patch wil make that problem go away.
Cheers

Niels

[Ali Fish]

I know from reliable sources that it's in beta now and will be released to the public on...you guessed it...FRIDAAAAAYYYY!!!

So its Friday Friday gota get down on Friday ???

Due to Rebecca Blacks poisinous adaptation of the art commonly known as music. we have to rename it to F-Fiveday.

[Chivas]

hi all , I guess we are all waiting for new patch , what are we at ..at the moment ..14821
THE 109 seems to flip over when turning to get onto spits six , this must be a BUG ...sound is still awful .. I stopped playing this game hope to come back and see progress ..really not happy paying for this sim and it don't work correctly .. been a fan for many years ..but this really has made me think weather to trust ubisoft again...SIX years in the making ...what went wrong ..??? was there a split in development teams , or a fall out over release dates ..what happened....

too many late parties ..lol...:cool:

What happened....they ran out of money for development and were forced to release the sim as is or cancel it. If they told us it wasn't finished, only a few would buy it, and it would be canceled. As it stands now you have a decent chance that COD will be finished, and further addons made for many more years. There are many other conspiracy theories, but this seems the most logical IMHO.

[6S.Manu]

What happened....they ran out of money for development and were forced to release the sim as is or cancel it. If they told us it wasn't finished, only a few would buy it, and it would be canceled. As it stands now you have a decent chance that COD will be finished, and further addons made for many more years. There are many other conspiracy theories, but this seems the most logical IMHO.

Are you sure? After 10 years playing with the IL2 series?

[Chivas]

Are you sure? After 10 years playing with the IL2 series?

Probably not enough would buy to insure the viability of the development. Atleast the publishers/developers didn't want to take that chance, when figuring the downsides of both scenarios.

[skouras]

What happened....they ran out of money for development and were forced to release the sim as is or cancel it. If they told us it wasn't finished, only a few would buy it, and it would be canceled. As it stands now you have a decent chance that COD will be finished, and further addons made for many more years. There are many other conspiracy theories, but this seems the most logical IMHO.

sounds more logical to me...:rolleyes:

[r0bc]

What happened....they ran out of money for development and were forced to release the sim as is or cancel it. If they told us it wasn't finished, only a few would buy it, and it would be canceled.

Unfortunately thats the biggest abuse PC gamers face

[SiThSpAwN]

This is pretty common across the board anymore, not just here, Publishers set a release date and developers are told to release then, if its not done then patch away, but the at least have the money from the initial release to keep the doors open...

I dont see that changing anytime soon... unfortunately.

[Chivas]

This is pretty common across the board anymore, not just here, Publishers set a release date and developers are told to release then, if its not done then patch away, but the at least have the money from the initial release to keep the doors open...

I dont see that changing anytime soon... unfortunately.

I agree....simulators are becoming very very complicated, take years to develop, and cost a fortune. Most customers realize that fact, and cut the developer some slack. Especially a developer like Maddox Games who has a history of the supporting their product, unlike Microsoft and many others.

[sorak]

Two weeks... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hisrm4FLBWE

hahah man why didnt i think of this before!!!!

nice job

[JZG_Con]

ran out of money , the game world makes millions ...and ubisoft have millions ..to spend ..

[Fjordmonkey]

This is pretty common across the board anymore, not just here, Publishers set a release date and developers are told to release then, if its not done then patch away, but the at least have the money from the initial release to keep the doors open...

I dont see that changing anytime soon... unfortunately.

You can blame the 'net for it, actually, since now it's so easy to update things post-launch. Before the 'net became so widespread and used for just about everything, you rarely saw things getting launched before it was as ready as it possibly could.

These days, updating things is easy since damn near everyone has 'net access. Hence why you see many minor (and some major) bugs never getting squished and products launched despite having more bugs and issues than a roach-infested psych-ward.

[Chivas]

ran out of money , the game world makes millions ...and ubisoft have millions ..to spend ..

The publishers, UBISOFT and IC, have been funding the project for years, and obviously not willing to keep funding the project for another year. This genre does NOT make enough money to fund the project indefinitely. Publishers regularly fund projects because small developers usually don't have the funds to pay empoyees for years of development.

[Phazon]

I'm not entirely sure how the funding side works. Technically Maddox Games and the IL-2 Sturmnovik name are the property of 1C, not Ubisoft. If anything I would've thought that 1C are the ones soley responsible for funding development. Ubisoft simply acquired a licence from 1C to publish and distribute the game outside of 1C's main territories.

[Blackdog_kt]

ran out of money , the game world makes millions ...and ubisoft have millions ..to spend ..

Depends on the kind of game we're examining. Ubisoft may make money from more popular games but it doesn't make that much from simulators, so they act accordingly when deciding how much money to put into the whole thing.

Case in point, Silent Hunter 5. The development team that made that one was actually a Ubisoft studio, they were part of Ubisoft and not an independent group like 1c who's just publishing through them. Well, when it was obvious the game would need a lot of work to get it up to speed, Ubi decided to not spend any more money on it and completely pulled the plug on the project after a couple of patches.

In other words, yes, it sucks that our favorite games are so expensive to make and don't sell enough and we have to put up with long development cycles and post-release patching as a result of that, but seeing other cases in the simulator world i'd say let's consider ourselves lucky to have a new sim that is actually getting fixed as time goes by.

[sorak]

In other words, yes, it sucks that our favorite games are so expensive to make and don't sell enough and we have to put up with long development cycles and post-release patching as a result of that, but seeing other cases in the simulator world i'd say let's consider ourselves lucky to have a new sim that is actually getting fixed as time goes by.

Perfectly put man

[Chivas]

I'm not entirely sure how the funding side works. Technically Maddox Games and the IL-2 Sturmnovik name are the property of 1C, not Ubisoft. If anything I would've thought that 1C are the ones soley responsible for funding development. Ubisoft simply acquired a licence from 1C to publish and distribute the game outside of 1C's main territories.

IC and Ubisoft are both publishers of COD. They front money for games developers the same way book publishers front money for authors.

[GF_Mastiff]

hahah man why didnt i think of this before!!!!

nice job

dam it i couldn't find it in time every time i hear 2 weeks thats what I alway imagined. lol

[Ctrl E]

Luthier certainly likes to create as much uncertainty among his customers as possible. An interesting way to do business!

[Chivas]

How does telling your customers you hope to have another patch out in a couple of weeks foster uncertainty.

[Dano]

Minimum of two weeks = anytime from saturday just gone, he never gave an upper limit. No confusion or uncertainty about it, it'll be ready when it's... do I really need to finish that?

[icarus]

...............tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, ............................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... :rolleyes:

Who cares? If it happens great, if not move on.

[Rather peeved]

Minimum of two weeks = anytime from saturday just gone, he never gave an upper limit. No confusion or uncertainty about it, it'll be ready when it's... do I really need to finish that?

You have to admit it's all pretty vauge. if i told my boss I'd have something ready in about two weeks - kinda sorta - then didn't, i'd get the sack.

i'm sorry for my negative attitude. i hope and think they probably will come through eventually. but i'm still struggling to trust these guys given the deliberate deception surrounding the orginal launch.

it's a long road back.

[Chivas]

You have to admit it's all pretty vauge. if i told my boss I'd have something ready in about two weeks - kinda sorta - then didn't, i'd get the sack.

i'm sorry for my negative attitude. i hope and think they probably will come through eventually. but i'm still struggling to trust these guys given the deliberate deception surrounding the orginal launch.

it's a long road back.

Its impossible to give an exact date for a patch release unless you do it the day it works. Fix one thing create a bug in another. Atleast the patch annoucement lets people know they are still working on the sim.

[Vengeanze]

You have to admit it's all pretty vauge. if i told my boss I'd have something ready in about two weeks - kinda sorta - then didn't, i'd get the sack.

If you gonna write a report then your argument is valid but not for bugfixing.
"My car is broken, how long will it take to fix it?"
When troubleshooting all you can specify is the amount of effort. "We are all working full-time to solve the problem. It has the highest priority"

Patch is due anytime from today till the "time it takes to recode the hole game + the time it took to come to that conclusion".

We already seen what happens when "the boss" (Ubi) demands a date from the coder (1C) - we got an Alpha.

[Skoshi Tiger]

If you gonna write a report then your argument is valid but not for bugfixing.
"My car is broken, how long will it take to fix it?"
When troubleshooting all you can specify is the amount of effort. "We are all working full-time to solve the problem. It has the highest priority"

Patch is due anytime from today till the "time it takes to recode the hole game + the time it took to come to that conclusion".

We already seen what happens when "the boss" (Ubi) demands a date from the coder (1C) - we got an Alpha.

+1

When your car breaks down, hopefully the mechanic is farmiliar with the make and model of the vehicle, they have ready access to the required replacement parts and that they have done a similar repair in the past and from that experience they can estimate a time frame.

The difference with software patching is that the developers need to re-engineer each of the replacement parts, sometimes from scratch. There are no off the self fixes.

Cheers!

[Dano]

You have to admit it's all pretty vauge. if i told my boss I'd have something ready in about two weeks - kinda sorta - then didn't, i'd get the sack.

i'm sorry for my negative attitude. i hope and think they probably will come through eventually. but i'm still struggling to trust these guys given the deliberate deception surrounding the orginal launch.

it's a long road back.

It's not at all vague, two weeks minimum end of.

If you told your boss you'd have something ready in two weeks kinda sorta then you've failed to understand what two weeks minimum means.

[Trumper]

Who cares? If it happens great, if not move on.
It does matter to people who can't get the game to run now and have shelved it in the hope of one day it may be mended,it does matter to those of us still waiting to see if it works and the improvements are good enough to warrant spending money on a major computer upgrade, - - it does matter for the future of all the future developments and addons of this sim.
Simply it does matter :)

[Fjordmonkey]

You have to admit it's all pretty vauge. if i told my boss I'd have something ready in about two weeks - kinda sorta - then didn't, i'd get the sack.

i'm sorry for my negative attitude. i hope and think they probably will come through eventually. but i'm still struggling to trust these guys given the deliberate deception surrounding the orginal launch.

it's a long road back.

Somehow I think you A: don't work in the IT-field, and B: You don't work as a developer.

Might be wrong, though, but it's just a hunch I have.

[icarus]

It does matter to people who can't get the game to run now and have shelved it in the hope of one day it may be mended,it does matter to those of us still waiting to see if it works and the improvements are good enough to warrant spending money on a major computer upgrade, - - it does matter for the future of all the future developments and addons of this sim.
Simply it does matter :)

I never said it didn't matter. Those are your words not mine.

The big yawn is for the daily vigil and clock watching. Not whether it happens at all.:)

[Tree_UK]

Somehow I think you A: don't work in the IT-field, and B: You don't work as a developer.

Might be wrong, though, but it's just a hunch I have.

Ive asked this question myself, not about 'rather peeved's' post but about the actual devepment team of CLOD. To get it this bad after 6 years of development suggest a record high level of incompetence/severe lack of ability and product management.

[Tree_UK]

The publishers, UBISOFT and IC, have been funding the project for years, and obviously not willing to keep funding the project for another year. This genre does NOT make enough money to fund the project indefinitely. Publishers regularly fund projects because small developers usually don't have the funds to pay empoyees for years of development.

Ubisoft only got onboard in 2010, Oleg announced they had just found a publisher and that the publisher would make themselves known, some people have failing memories around here.

[adonys]

I frankly don't think it's incompetence, or at least not as the main factor, but rather a late development start (they in no way have worked on this for 6 years) with a tiny dev team (programming department).

[Tree_UK]

I frankly don't think it's incompetence, or at least not as the main factor, but rather a late development start (they in no way have worked on this for 6 years) with a tiny dev team (programming department).

To release in the state it was in was either sheer incompetence or something much more sinister.

[esmiol]

like the dev team of Rise of flight in his release then?

seriously... it is sad o see the state of the game when it was release... but it is not the firts aand the only game who are release not finished... it is more and more often ...... it is sad... but is is like that know... money first...quality after.

we could be happy to have dev still working after release... lot of game are release not finished and stay unfinished.

[Bakelit]

(they in no way have worked on this for 6 years)

Agreed. I would pay 25 € asap for a bound book detailing the true development history of CLOD up to the release. Would make for fascianting reading.

But if it came anything like the sim, it would have an über awful dustjacket, pages 22-104 of 300 would be missing, others misprinted and the pictures be crudely pixellated. And the bookmark would refuse to stay inside.

[Chivas]

Ubisoft only got onboard in 2010, Oleg announced they had just found a publisher and that the publisher would make themselves known, some people have failing memories around here.

UBISOFT never went anywhere they were the publishers of COD/SOW since 2005, there may have been a strained relationship, but they were still in the picture big time. If Oleg could have gotten ridden of them he would have, as he didn't need them to distribute the game in the West. Steam is doing that just fine. UBI fronted too much money and Oleg couldn't afford to get rid of them. It was one of the reasons Oleg left the day to day operations of his company too explore other monetary interests that publishers couldn't drain dry.

[Tree_UK]

UBISOFT never went anywhere they were the publishers of COD/SOW since 2005, there may have been a strained relationship, but they were still in the picture big time. If Oleg could have gotten ridden of them he would have, as he didn't need them to distribute the game in the West. Steam is doing that just fine. UBI fronted too much money and Oleg couldn't afford to get rid of them. It was one of the reasons Oleg left the day to day operations of his company too explore other monetary interests that publishers couldn't drain dry.

This is a complete work of fiction. Ask yourself why Oleg would make the 'statement' that he had found a publisher.... if he already had one??? Unless of course he'd forgotten he had one which is remotely possible.

Lets look at the facts.
-Ubisoft never mentioned SOW/CLOD for years
-The game never appeared on any Ubisoft release shedules for years
-James O'reilly international brand manager said in 2009 that Ubi were not involved
-2010, Oleg announces they have a publisher

These are hard facts, the best you have is what you 'think' happened.

[philip.ed]

This is a complete work of fiction. Ask yourself why Oleg would make the 'statement' that he had found a publisher.... if he already had one??? Unless of course he'd forgotten he had one which is remotely possible.

Lets look at the facts.
-Ubisoft never mentioned SOW/CLOD for years
-The game never appeared on any Ubisoft release shedules for years
-James O'reilly international brand manager said in 2009 that Ubi were not involved
-2010, Oleg announces they have a publisher

These are hard facts, the best you have is what you 'think' happened.

This is true. Or as close to the truth as we are likely to get short of any 'official' documentation.

[ATAG_Doc]

conspiracy theories abound here

[Chivas]

This is a complete work of fiction. Ask yourself why Oleg would make the 'statement' that he had found a publisher.... if he already had one??? Unless of course he'd forgotten he had one which is remotely possible.

Lets look at the facts.
-Ubisoft never mentioned SOW/CLOD for years
-The game never appeared on any Ubisoft release shedules for years
-James O'reilly international brand manager said in 2009 that Ubi were not involved
-2010, Oleg announces they have a publisher

These are hard facts, the best you have is what you 'think' happened.



OK let look at the facts:

UBISOFT was involved with SOW since 2005
UBISOFT announced the release of COD/SOW in 2007
UBISOFT was still publishing Maddox Games titles in 2008
Maddox Games has never announced that UBISOFT was no longer the publisher in the West.
UBISOFT is the publisher in the West

You claim James O'reilly told you on phone UBISOFT is no longer involved. This has NEVER been substantiated by UBISOFT or Maddox Games. I find it interesting you believed him when you've been calling UBISOFT and Maddox Games liars for years.

I have no doubt there were problems with UBISOFT, and Oleg was very likely looking for an alternative considering his feeling on the percentage of the profits publishers take.

[Tree_UK]

OK let look at the facts:

UBISOFT was involved with SOW since 2005
UBISOFT announced the release of COD/SOW in 2007
UBISOFT was still publishing Maddox Games titles in 2008
Maddox Games has never announced that UBISOFT was no longer the publisher in the West.
UBISOFT is the publisher in the West

You claim James O'reilly told you on phone UBISOFT is no longer involved. This has NEVER been substantiated by UBISOFT or Maddox Games. I find it interesting you believed him when you've been calling UBISOFT and Maddox Games liars for years.

I have no doubt there were problems with UBISOFT, and Oleg was very likely looking for an alternative considering his feeling on the percentage of the profits publishers take.

James O'Reilly could no be substantiated because none of you clowns could be arse'd to phone up, despite me posting up his direct phone number on more than one occasion. So lets not go down that route Chivas.

So Oleg annouced they had found a publisher because he's

(a) A complete fool who had forgot he had a publisher already
(b) A blatent liar
(c) Because he hadn't got a western publisher up until announcement (hint)
(d) He is a sheep head

Mutltiple choice for you here Chivas, answers on a postcard.

[SiThSpAwN]

I think there was a second publisher on the grassy knoll...

[Das Attorney]

Back and to the left. Back and to the left. ;)

[icarus]

SimHq commentary article yesterday:

http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_499a.html

They should take the time they need on the next patch, it needs to work well. The devs have a lot to overcome. I hope they can do it.

[Tree_UK]

Tom missed the part where they, 'made sure that anyone who asked awkward questions on the 1C forum during development gets a ban'.

[icarus]

You missed the, 'make sure that anyone who ask's awkward questions on the 1C forum during development gets a ban'.

I'm just sayin, they need to take the time they need to get it right and that there is a lot at stake. I read the rules and I'm not saying anything that breaks them. I'll edit it anyway.

[Ze-Jamz]

You haven't broke any rules mate,

Tree is just adding to your post :)

And yes I agree they have to make big improvements in the next patch hence why I think it's not been released yet.

It's needs to make a big and be seen to make a big difference, not just another beta that breaks as much as fixes.

[Tree_UK]

I'm just sayin, they need to take the time they need to get it right and that there is a lot at stake. I read the rules and I'm not saying anything that breaks them. I'll edit it anyway.

No you didn't break any rules mate, sorry for the confusion caused, i was just adding to the general post from Tom.

[icarus]

No you didn't break any rules mate, sorry for the confusion caused, i was just adding to the general post from Tom.

Oh ok, I'm a little gun shy. LOL anyway, link is still there.

[von Pilsner]

It's needs to make a big and be seen to make a big difference, not just another beta that breaks as much as fixes.

I agree, but I really want the single player stuff fixed soon too!!! (graphics and sound are obviously more important than gameplay... wait... what..!?!?!?!?) ;)

Just kidding, I know the MP players would freak if they were not working on the sound issues.

[Ze-Jamz]

Mate I can't wait for the new sounds to arrive but like you it's not the most important thing to fix for me.

Performance is the biggest so we can draw more people in to this sim who have moderate systems wether your SP or MP makes no difference.

[r0bc]

I agree, but I really want the single player stuff fixed soon too!!!

Same here...I've parked this thing for now until a patch.

[Blackdog_kt]

James O'Reilly could no be substantiated because none of you clowns could be arse'd to phone up

You are making it really hard for the moderating team to justify your stay around here with the kind of directly aggressive language you use towards other members, simply on the basis of having a different opinion.

Consider this your official "strike 1 out 3" warning and give the personal attacks a rest or you'll get a few days of mandatory forum vacation.

Oh and before i get complaints about "silencing the criticism", one of the most ardent supporters of the sim already has 2 out of 3 for the exact same reason: if grown men can't mind their manners when addressing other people, then they need to be reminded about it in some way.

Other than that, everyone is free to go on as they see fit. We don't mind what people say as long as they do it in a respectful manner. If one doesn't respect the rest of the participants however, then their posting rights will be disrespected as well.

[Tree_UK]

Well I apologise if anyone felt that I had attacked them personally with the use of the word 'clown', or indeed if I have offended any real 'clowns' by insinuating that they are flight sim fans. Seriously though Blackdog, in the uk calling someone a clown, as in "oh you clown" is not at all aggressive its more a term of endearment, its what you would call a friend if he made a mistake, rather than call him an idiot, if that makes sense. Anyhow sorry if anyone did take offense.

[banned]

Who took a fence? Checking my dogs now!