Suggestion for the Developers

[smoki]

Hi guys, I'm new to this community, even though I'm an avid flight sim enthusiast (and a huge Sturmovik fan).

I've been playing IL-2 Sturmovik for quite some time now, but until now I have never delved in to the online waters, or should I better say "airspace", and due to that minor fact (never playing online), I've never involved myself with this community. Anyway, now back to the idea.

I am a huge flight sim fan, and also a combat flight sim fan at that, and especially a WWII combat flight sim fan.
Now, considering IL-2 is the best WWII flight sim (all sucking up is accidental :-P), I figured this "idea" (or better said suggestion) I have, should best be introduced to the Sturmovik developers.

I've noticed that one thing truly missing from WWII flight sims that would truly make them spectacular is essentially a more defined, personal, pilot's story and angle and point of view told through a better "story vehicle" (unlike just plain text in between missions).

Here, I also must point out I've only played 1946 and not CoD or BoP.

First of all, this fan vid on this very board (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=19710) (the beginning, actually, will suffice on its own) will suit the purpose of illustrating some points I want to make just fine.

What I'm actually aiming for is Call of Duty 2 in air (I'll assume almost everyone has played that game). So, some of the things I'll recommend don't have to be taken as the exact way I imagine them to be done necessarily, but more like my take on the idea.

The main point is to take a personal story of a pilot, and tell it, to use a bit more of story telling, movie elements, spielberg-esque feel, more atmosphere, to make it more believable as if you were really a WWII pilot.

Of course the suggestion is for the campaign, there are already static and dynamic campaigns, but I am looking at something more like a single player campaign in a FPS. It could be put in the main menu as "Pilot's Tale", for example.

What it would involve would include, such as in that vid, voice acting (not just of the in-battle voice work such as "I'm being hit!" or "Bandits, 12 o'clock!"), dialog, and some build of the characters. It would include such short snippets of dialog before missions (done in engine, or maybe even prerecorded), either only through your eyes or from a TPS view. It could also include some before missions stuff like a short briefing of mission by your CO in a meeting room, in engine, when the airport is suddenly attacked, and you have to run to your plane and take of to battle whilst the sirens go off. Scripted sequences, voice acting, dialog... etc. Like Cal of Duty.

Now, mentioning Call of Duty, the campaign could be made the same way, as in the British, the American, and the Russian campaign. Each following the story of a single pilot in respective armies, probably being transfered to a bomber after first being a fighter pilot, or something like that. It would follow historical missions, such as Market Garden, D day, Midway, Battle of Britain, Stalingrad, or whatever. Like CoD2.
Now, the slightly wacky but interesting thing I want to recommend as well, is scripted sequences in dogfighting in the "background". By this I mean, around 30% of the airplanes and dogfights in the air could be scripted to make some cool moments like a spinning burning plane crashing in an airport tower or a church tower, and other 70% would be normal. Of course air is much bigger than a linear FPS and would be difficult to do these things, but there are some moments when these scripted sequences could be activated. The reason I'm suggesting this is because cool moments like this happen when I play (for example I was once flying fast to two dots going towards each other which than suddenly stopped for no reason, and than suddenly, as I was going really fast to them, a spinning burning, with only one wing plane zoomed over the top of my cockpit whilst the pilot screamed "Aaaaaaaargggghh!" in my earphones through the radio) but they don't happen often enough! :) But if they turn up to be too hard to make, they can be limited to just the mission beginnings (or endings). And when you attack the scripted planes (both friendly or enemy) they break out of their "scriptedness".

Now, the important thing I want to point out, is that this scripted stuff wouldn't make the game any bit "arcady", it would still be a full simulator, just as I like it, but "with a stronger flavor".

Now, on to the practical side. Considering BoP wasn't truly favored by critics due to its "arcady" nature, and CoD due to its many bugs, this idea could be implemented to 1946. Of course it can also wait for CoD to reach its full shine after a couple of years of polishing just like the original did. The point being, it could bring back the praise the Sturmovik franchise deserves, non dependent on by which way it's implemented. Of course, it would require the team to hire some folks experienced with story telling, historical research other than airplane looks, proper music etc... but IMHO it would be worth it.

It all depends on what the community thinks. So, here's a quick poll whether you think its a good idea, first just on its own (we'll see later on the actual stuff), without the how would it be implemented, and in which game, a Sturmovik or some game from the distant future of 2015, lets say, but just the idea of Call of Duty like, more story like flight sim. :grin:

[Phazon]

I know what you are trying to say. Honestly I don't think MG would be up to the task, they are very good with the technical stuff (as they should be for making flight sims) but they don't have the creative resources to do something like that.

In my opinion the best thing they could ever do is something like Rise of Flight's new career mode. Let the players make their own story and just provide a vessel for them to keep track of their journey. Let them feel apart of a squadron / stabstaffel and actually feel sorry to lose wingmen or feel proud when they earn a medal. :)

[Strike]

I know what you are trying to say. Honestly I don't think MG would be up to the task, they are very good with the technical stuff (as they should be for making flight sims) but they don't have the creative resources to do something like that.

In my opinion the best thing they could ever do is something like Rise of Flight's new career mode. Let the players make their own story and just provide a vessel for them to keep track of their journey. Let them feel apart of a squadron / stabstaffel and actually feel sorry to lose wingmen or feel proud when they earn a medal. :)

I think this dynamic campaign mode is an excellent idea. Perhaps take it to the level where you can assign missions yourself at a more squadron commander level eventually. They could create adjacent maps to BoB to create an even wider battlefield so that when you take control over one map, you advance to the edge of the adjacent map. Or something like that. It could also be divided into certain theatres and eras. Like the bob period. North africa and so on..

[senseispcc]

No opinion.

[NedLynch]

I must admit you completely turned me off at "Call of Duty".

DCG by all means a superior must, but not a scripted pilots tale where you even would have to fly planes that you normally don't really like to fly.

A truly dynamic campaign is the best fluff a sim like this can have, with a squad roster,choice of unit, plane and area of operations, replacements, mission results that carry over/influence the next mission and dynamic frontline and dynamic reactions of friend and foe to the unfolding campaign, replay value = unlimited.
That way everyone makes his own dramatic storyline and it's different eveytime you play it again.

[smoki]

Interesting... currently exactly at 50% - 50% (whilst I'm typing). It seems this divides the peoples of the board! :-P

First of... oh my... I didn't thought the Call of duty reference would bring on such hate.

Well, the reasons I used it are the following... considering all the Cliffs of Dover CoD abbreviations written all around here, it was kinda the first thing that sprang to mind, and also when I think of "movie like WWII game", Call of Duty 2 is the first game that springs to my mind. Also it's worth mentioning I've played only CoD1 and CoD2, nothing furtherer, so I'm neither dissapointed with, nor burnt on the franchise me self. I've played it only in its golden era. So I have no hard feelings for it. Anyway....

I know what you are trying to say. Honestly I don't think MG would be up to the task, they are very good with the technical stuff (as they should be for making flight sims) but they don't have the creative resources to do something like that.

I agree, they c o u l d join with some other team more experienced with it, but if they (IL-2 developers) aren't gonna do it (alone or not), who is?

Which brings me to this:


I would prefer that these type of things came from the community, as we (the community, not me particularly!) are the better researchers, and inventors. Let the developers concentrate on the technicals, and when the base is good, the community will build the fluff!
Cool and dandy, but there is only much how much the community can do this way. It is actually a good idea, but how much is Sturmovik's code open? Can you truly script in voice work, and some action other than flight paths? (In the end, I only ask for the ability for the users to build in this sort of thing if nothing else, the community can handle it if its really what's wanted. It's really not that hard for the developers to make it at least more modable - not just adding models, but scripting, code...)


Perhaps a reference to the excellent Luftwaffe Pilot campaigns by FlatSpinMan, where you took on the persona of Willi Jederman, would have been a better example.

As I've said, I've never explored the community, one of the reasons being 1946 is already very much full of content, so I've never tried this. I assume it's mainly just stuff made with the mission builder. Is there any original art work, voice work put in, or is it just missions?

{I've done some searching and looking and there seems to be a picture of a man running from a bombed sight, but is it gameplay or just for show?}


DCG by all means a superior must, but not a scripted pilots tale where you even would have to fly planes that you normally don't really like to fly.

A truly dynamic campaign is the best fluff a sim like this can have...[snip]
To each he's own I guess. I like a good DC too. Anyway, I'm not saying to ditch the DC with all its splendors, I'm just saying add a "Pilot's Tale" (if nothing else I'm asking for cool cut scenes, damn it! :grin: Pilots talking to each other about the war, their personal experience... you get what I mean?). It's not that much new content, maybe a few vids and code... its not gonna deter the DC in any way.

Cheers

smoki out

[No601_Swallow]

A couple of great fun story-driven campaigns are "castaways" and "bushpigs" (I think).

As much characterisation as you could wish for (even though you're Australian - but hold your nose and you'll be OK ;-)).

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=29

[Rattlehead]

I'm not interested in the idea at all.

Firstly, thanks for typing out such a long and well thought-out post. Obviously you have given this a good deal of thought.

For me though, it's not neccessary to have pre-scripted events in a simulator. I'm not at all in favour of it, simply because what makes a simulator like this fun is precisely all the random, unscripted events. I've seen burning planes flash across my windscreen, but they were unscripted events, and all the more exciting because of it.

The thing with pre-scripted events is that it may be fun the first time around, but if you fail the mission and have to try it again, you'll know exactly what to expect, and essentially it becomes a case of trial and error, not neccessarily skill, that wins the day.
If you have to keep trying to achieve success, it quickly becomes boring and feels contrived. Pre-scripted events do work well in some games, but honestly I think they have no place in a simulator.

As to a proper story mode, again I don't think it's neccessary. I can only speak for myself, but I'd rather play a historically accurate campaign or mission, however sometimes boring it may be, rather than one that is specifically designed to make the game more exciting or movie-like.

The problem as I see it in this sense is that sooner or later fantasy is going to creep into the game. In order to make missions ever more exciting, virtual pilots will be tasked on taking on missions that never happened or never would have happened in WW2.

I bought this sim because I wanted to experience, as close as I'll ever get, to flying a combat aircraft in WW2 and experiencing what it's like to keep tabs on manifold pressure, engaging the fuel cock, opening the rads, trimming the plane and other often mundane but important tasks. It's not all about the action but the pure experience of 'flying' these great old warbirds.

Of course the air combat plays a major role, but I want the combat to feel as authentic and realistic as possible.
Pre-scripting the action or trying to make it more movie-like is going to straddle the line between simulator and arcade game, and to me games that try and achieve both often end up achieving neither. For me, it's best to play either an arcade type game or a simulator, depending on what you're looking for.
I honestly couldn't care less about a sweeping, grandiose musical score as I attack a formation of bombers...not in a simulator. I'd be too busy adjusting the convergence of my guns to care. :)

[Danelov]

Already some of this elements were used by CFS2, as example the voice of the japanese pilot writing to his family, the images of the combat in style "Comics", etc,etc. Also, some of this elements were present in CFS3.The Intro was in this line and was well realized.

[Danelov]

The intro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwUyC5tWwVY

[Space Communist]

I know what you are trying to say. Honestly I don't think MG would be up to the task, they are very good with the technical stuff (as they should be for making flight sims) but they don't have the creative resources to do something like that.

In my opinion the best thing they could ever do is something like Rise of Flight's new career mode. Let the players make their own story and just provide a vessel for them to keep track of their journey. Let them feel apart of a squadron / stabstaffel and actually feel sorry to lose wingmen or feel proud when they earn a medal. :)

I agree, but with the stipulation that they do the one thing RoF lacks, and that's the ability to play that dynamic campaign co-op. If that were added my friend and I would likely forget that all other games exist for years. Also we would buy every single plane/expansion if they go with that model.

[smoki]

I don't believe there was voice work, but he had new art, intro movies, and lots of other fluff. If you still play 1946 at all, I definitely recommend trying all his campaigns. Legion Kondor is especially nice, as you start in a trainer (you are still training when his story starts), gets to a stunt in a Ju-52, then puts you finally into a 109. Excellent story, with a plot twist and revenge mission!

Will do!

A couple of great fun story-driven campaigns are "castaways" and "bushpigs" (I think).

As much characterisation as you could wish for (even though you're Australian - but hold your nose and you'll be OK ;-)).

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=29

Thanks.

The intro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwUyC5tWwVY

Something like that, although this was just a "little bit" cheesy and corny (look what you did....now I'm hungry).

But something like that. Although I was aiming for something more serious not so "cartoony". Something more in the style of Band of Brothers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_of_Brothers_(TV_miniseries)) (I'll assume you've seen or at least heard of it... don't hate on me again for bringing something non-aircraft related :-P :eek:), y'know? Just, not only an intro, but throughout the whole campaign, and essentially between missions, as in their starts and ends, and not always about the way the dogfights start, in fact, not so much often at all (it would get lame pretty fast), but sometimes more about the wider picture of the war, seen, or better said heard (as in what the pilots heard), from the pilots' perspectives. Y'know, I wanna feel like my wingmen are real people.

I'm not interested in the idea at all.

Firstly, thanks for typing out such a long and well thought-out post. Obviously you have given this a good deal of thought.

For me though, it's not neccessary to have pre-scripted events in a simulator. I'm not at all in favour of it, simply because what makes a simulator like this fun is precisely all the random, unscripted events. I've seen burning planes flash across my windscreen, but they were unscripted events, and all the more exciting because of it.

The thing with pre-scripted events is that it may be fun the first time around, but if you fail the mission and have to try it again, you'll know exactly what to expect, and essentially it becomes a case of trial and error, not neccessarily skill, that wins the day.
If you have to keep trying to achieve success, it quickly becomes boring and feels contrived. Pre-scripted events do work well in some games, but honestly I think they have no place in a simulator.

As to a proper story mode, again I don't think it's neccessary. I can only speak for myself, but I'd rather play a historically accurate campaign or mission, however sometimes boring it may be, rather than one that is specifically designed to make the game more exciting or movie-like.

The problem as I see it in this sense is that sooner or later fantasy is going to creep into the game. In order to make missions ever more exciting, virtual pilots will be tasked on taking on missions that never happened or never would have happened in WW2.

I bought this sim because I wanted to experience, as close as I'll ever get, to flying a combat aircraft in WW2 and experiencing what it's like to keep tabs on manifold pressure, engaging the fuel cock, opening the rads, trimming the plane and other often mundane but important tasks. It's not all about the action but the pure experience of 'flying' these great old warbirds.

Of course the air combat plays a major role, but I want the combat to feel as authentic and realistic as possible.
Pre-scripting the action or trying to make it more movie-like is going to straddle the line between simulator and arcade game, and to me games that try and achieve both often end up achieving neither. For me, it's best to play either an arcade type game or a simulator, depending on what you're looking for.
I honestly couldn't care less about a sweeping, grandiose musical score as I attack a formation of bombers...not in a simulator. I'd be too busy adjusting the convergence of my guns to care. :)

You're welcome, although I haven't given that much thought to it at all, actually. I had this idea, or desire, sprung up to my mind only a day or two ago, although I did try to make my point come across as clearly as possible. Apparentaly though, I haven't done it as successfully as I wanted.


Now, the slightly wacky but interesting thing I want to recommend as well, is scripted sequences in dogfighting in the "background". By this I mean, around 30% of the airplanes and dogfights in the air could be scripted to make some cool moments...
As you can see, I did say this was a wacky idea, and at the moment I couldn't find a better word (English after all, isn't my mother tongue), but I meant it more like a far-fetched, quirky idea I just wanted to add to the post, but it wasn't the main part of the idea I wanted to convey.
Also, what I want you guys to understand is that in no way I want the battle to be less of a simulator, or that the mission itself should be scripted so you know each time how it will go, so the dogfight would become boring (I mean, you can't even do that with a flight sim), but just that there should be some neat stuff added to the background on occasion (nothing cheesy), maybe once per mission. Also, I guess I was inclined to the whole scripted business because I wanted the dialogue and these kind of stuff to be done in-engine (after which you regain control of your aircraft) and not as much as a video (other than when it's neccessary such as with people on the ground, mission briefings, and the whole "get to know the pilots" business)

So, I myself understand what i want better, now. It's the story told through a live action medium not just text, preferably in-engine on starts of missions and as videos in between missions. Again, nothing cheesy. I just want to make the feel of being a pilot even stronger. I mean, yes, the manifold pressure, the cowl flaps, the engine temperature, it's all here, but the personal story of a pilot would be a nice additional touch, and something that is as equally important for the whole WWII pilot experience. That's it I guess. I mean, it's just something I'd like to see as an additional part of the game with the already great campaigns.

Edit: Just to point out, I play the game on full realism, so I don't want it to be any bit less of a simulator, just, lets "simulate" some character into it, and those friendlies and enemies.

[Phazon]

I agree, but with the stipulation that they do the one thing RoF lacks, and that's the ability to play that dynamic campaign co-op. If that were added my friend and I would likely forget that all other games exist for years. Also we would buy every single plane/expansion if they go with that model.

Its more possible to happen with Cliffs of Dover than it is with Rise of Flight that's for sure. When you play single-player in Cliffs of Dover it uses the same code it does for multiplayer, except you are just hosting a "server" on your own PC.

[Bryan21cag]

Apparently though, I haven't done it as successfully as I wanted.


lol its not your fault :) your post was great... There are just those on these forums that once they see one key word or phrase they do not agree with, they instantly react and lock on to what ever it is they do not like instead of responding to the actual idea that you had :)

For me I am kind of split on the subject.

I'm with Rattlehead on the fact that I love the true randomness of a good flight sim but at the same time I also love to be personally invested in my pilot, I.E. kill count, medals, and even an odd cut scene or two mixed in but not within the story more like what CFS did when you landed and shut down after a successful mission you got a little cut scene of you hopping down from your wing and looking back at you plane with (insert emotion here) :) and there was at one point plans for a really cool Bail out cut scene but I think it got dropped early in the development.

I voted in favor but maybe not exactly as you described it. I would say just a little bonus here and there like the bail out, and mission success and failure animations but without turning the actual game play into a story line driven cut scene thus removing the randomness I love so much.

My 2 bits :)

Cheers

[Seeker]

It's worth bearing in mind in this debate that historically Maddox games has always come down firmly on the side of scripted events.

There was an attempt at dynamic mission generation, the infamous Dgen, but it withered on the vine through lack of support; and the project developer has said numerous times he's in favour of scripted missions over dynamic as otherwise there's a risk that the wrong people could win.

Off line, I've always found the Maddox series lifeless and sterile. I've tried to get into offline flying over the years, but it never really worked for me.

And that's the biggest surprise with ROF for me: I spend at least 80% of my time offline in the wonderful dynamic career mode.

I might not agree with all the OP's points, but I think he's moving in a more fruitful direction an IL-2 stripped of most of it's features with merely a graphics boost to paper over the gaps (not counting the trees, but then again with no collision model they don't count anyway).

The Ngen generator was a simply fantastic idea, but, like Dgen, it died through lack of support.

there's rumours that ROF's career mode may be expanded to an analogue of Ngen, that's to say, a dynamicaly generated online career mode for multiplayer.

I hope it happens, I'll be one happy bunny if it does. The game play is much more important to me than the game shape, whether it's a 56RFC SE5a or a 56RAF Hurri, the game content inspires me more than the game artefact.