3D Cliffs Of Dover Pictures

[Les]

Here are some 3D test shots taken in the Cliffs Of Dover QMB.

To view these pictures in 3D, blur your vision until you are seeing three versions of the image, then overlap the left and right images and focus on that overlapped centre image, which should be in 3D.

When you can see the image in 3D, you can then hold up your hands to block the 'ghost' images on the left and right of it in order to see the 3D one more clearly.

For me, I look at the right-side image, unfocus my eyes and the out of focus left-side image just slides onto the right-side image to form the 3D image, which I can then focus on as normal, but in 3D.

Here's a page that explains how to view these kinds of pictures - http://www.3dphoto.net/text/viewing/technique.html

And here's a (somewhat strange) video that also explains the technique in more detail - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvShotHl1As

I didn't spend a lot of time selecting these shots, just loaded up the QMB and took some shots to see if it would work. And whaddya know, it does.


http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/179/19938670.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/19938670.jpg/)



http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3541/67977852.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/67977852.jpg/)



http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1282/17171314.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/17171314.jpg/)



http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6782/69977907.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/69977907.jpg/)



http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9821/91403251.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/91403251.jpg/)



http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8273/20675604.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/20675604.jpg/)



http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8536/88137590.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/88137590.jpg/)

I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to do. Just take a picture, move the camera to the side a bit, take another picture, then combine them in a picture editing program (I use the free GIMP program), and there you have it. You do have to make sure the correct picture is on the correct side of the final picture for the effect to work, but you can see easily enough if you've got them in the right order.

[IvanK]

Thats pretty neat ... except my eyes are now locked at 1 metre convergence :)

[fireship4]

Took me a while, even though I had seen these things before, but I got it in the end.

I'm guessing you didnt move the camera sideways by the distance between human eyes, but it still worked. This makes me wonder... let's say you moved it further, maybe a good 10m for the close-ups of the spitfire. Would you get some sort of brain-hologram (a more pronounced one I mean)? What I mean is you would be able to look at more of the plane, more than would be achievable with normal human eyes.

Maybe the effect wouldn't be so amazing, or maybe it would be to unusual for our brains to compute. I would be interested enough to try though...

[fireship4]

I guess the extreme would be to have two pictures taken on opposite sides of the object :) actually, the extreme would be multiple pictures with a view to every side of the object's surface. If your brain could compute that into a single image it would be truly amazing... I would imagine it could with proper training and the right method of displaying the image. EDIT or would that be a step too far - I mean it's hard to conceive of seeing the back and front of something at the same time - though I guess what we do naturally is the same but on a smaller scale?

[katdogfizzow]

that is so cool

[Robotic Pope]

I guess the extreme would be to have two pictures taken on opposite sides of the object :) actually, the extreme would be multiple pictures with a view to every side of the object's surface. If your brain could compute that into a single image it would be truly amazing... I would imagine it could with proper training and the right method of displaying the image. EDIT or would that be a step too far - I mean it's hard to conceive of seeing the back and front of something at the same time - though I guess what we do naturally is the same but on a smaller scale?

Yes that is some thought. I definatly think the brain is capable of this, but like you said it would take time to learn to make sense of it all. This is afterall how a fly's eye works. Can you imagine a movie or video game using multiple visual inputs to your brain, It would be like being inside the movie/game but having complete awearness, sensing everything around you at the same time, never missing something happening behind your back. That would be awesome in a flight sim huh? And you could thow that TrackIR in the bin lol.

[Les]

Glad it's working for you.

I didn't calculate the distance I had to move the camera. I'm sure though it must be more than the actual distance between the average pair of eyes. I just looked at some other pictures that worked and adjusted these pictures to what I guessed was a similar amount.

I think there would definitely be an upper limit to the distance you can move the camera before the brain just can't reconcile such different images.

Am trying to see if I can recreate this in video form too, but am having difficulties dealing with the idiosyncracies of the games track playback system at the moment.

[AndyJWest]

Another technique to try is Wiggle stereoscopy, using animated gifs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggle_stereoscopy#Wiggle_stereoscopy). I've taken the liberty of trying this with on of Les's images:

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae65/ajv00987k/SpitWiggle.gif

I think that the two viewpoints are too far apart to work well, and the rate of image switching needs fine-tuning, but it shows promise. For a better example of the technique, see this one that Raaaid posted here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=306262&postcount=43

[DickDastardly]

Am trying to see if I can recreate this in video form too, but am having difficulties dealing with the idiosyncracies of the games track playback system at the moment.

If you have nVidia 3D Vision and FRAPS you can record 3D movies of gameplay or tracks at the touch of a button (without having to do any manual camera manipulation or stitching images together later).

Unfortunately there are some anomalies -mainly that the game doesn't correctly calculate shadows in 3D and only draws those parts of clouds which would have been visible from a monoscopic viewpoint. However, if you turn off shadows and clouds you can get pretty decent results.
Cheers,
DD

[Les]

Wow, that gif is hyper, I get stressed out just looking at it.

Checked out some of those other wiggle pictures. Didn't get much out of them tbh.

Am uploading a 3D Cliffs of Dover test video at the moment that works using the cross-eyed technique.

[Les]

If you have nVidia 3D Vision and FRAPS you can record 3D movies of gameplay or tracks at the touch of a button (without having to do any manual camera manipulation or stitching images together later)...

That's interesting, didn't know that, might have to look into it before the novelty of this 3D stuff wears off.

Edit - Just enabled 3D in the nVidia control panel, started up a quick mission in Cliffs Of Dover and it was in the old red/blue anaglyph 3D! Lol, I hate that stuff. Does work though. Would be cool if they had a button that would turn the image into a perfectly aligned stereo pair like the cross-eyed technique uses.

[GF_Mastiff]

do you guys know if the old pair of 3D extreme glasses will work on a 28 inch LCD I havent tried yet as the connectors are from the old VGS 16 pin

[DickDastardly]

Edit - Just enabled 3D in the nVidia control panel, started up a quick mission in Cliffs Of Dover and it was in the old red/blue anaglyph 3D! Lol, I hate that stuff. Does work though. Would be cool if they had a button that would turn the image into a perfectly aligned stereo pair like the cross-eyed technique uses.
If you don't have an nVidia 3D Vision emitter connected to your PC (and a 3D Vision Ready display) then the drivers default to anaglyph mode. If you have the correct kit then you get proper 3D (and can record true colour side-by-side format movies in FRAPS rather than just anaglyph).
Cheers,
DD

[Les]

...If you have the correct kit then you get proper 3D (and can record true colour side-by-side format movies in FRAPS rather than just anaglyph)...

Thanks for the info, but pardon my ignorance, does nVidia provide a way to record an image like the one below?

First test of the cross-eyed 3D technique using IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs Of Dover. Probably works best when viewed in Expanded view on Youtube. If viewing Full screen you might have to sit a bit further back from the screen than usual, as the image is a bit big.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9E9HrDrZYM

[DickDastardly]

The nVidia drivers allow you to take 3D screenshots via a hotkey, but to record a movie like that you'd also need FRAPS. TBH I can't remember if the free version of FRAPS allows 3D movie recording but the registered version certainly does.
Cheers,
DD

P.S. These sites both have a load of 3D movies recorded from games:

www.solutiongaming.co.uk (http://www.solutiongaming.co.uk/)

www.3dizzy.com (http://www.3dizzy.com/)

[Robotic Pope]

Thanks for the info, but pardon my ignorance, does nVidia provide a way to record an image like the one below?

First test of the cross-eyed 3D technique using IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs Of Dover. Probably works best when viewed in Expanded view on Youtube. If viewing Full screen you might have to sit a bit further back from the screen than usual, as the image is a bit big.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9E9HrDrZYM

Hey, that looks awesome, especialy when the sun and shadow comes across and you get a great sense of how deep the dials are inside the cockpit. You can really see the difference as the stick moves towards or away from you. very well done :cool:

[Les]

Here's another one. Just a bunch of AI flying around in the Quick Mission Builder. Some nice effects there, but like the 'real' stuff, I find 3D doesn't do much for some shots and content. Again, best watched on Youtube in expanded or fullscreen mode.

Time to rest my eyes now :grin:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPAlVn4U77c

[Rjel]

Very cool. The videos "pulled" more on my eyes than the still pics. Once I got my eyes focused into 3D I held my hands in front of my face covering the outside images on my monitor. Surprisingly the 3D image remained in view and was much easier on my eyes. Great job on the videos.

[sorak]

Thanks for the info, but pardon my ignorance, does nVidia provide a way to record an image like the one below?

First test of the cross-eyed 3D technique using IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs Of Dover. Probably works best when viewed in Expanded view on Youtube. If viewing Full screen you might have to sit a bit further back from the screen than usual, as the image is a bit big.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9E9HrDrZYM

Man that is totaly awesome.. once you get it finially in focus and block the 2 images on each side.. really is amazing

nice work

[Les]

Thanks for the feedback.

Having played around with these images a bit now, I've found there are a couple of important factors in avoiding eye-strain while viewing and making them.

As the end user/viewer, you must have your eyes horizontally level with the picture, and you must have your eyes the right distance from the picture in order to allow your eyes to just relax out of focus and not strain to make the out of focus pictures merge. If you move your head back and forth you can use that as a focussing method and see how close you can get to the pictures before they become too big for your eyes to merge comfortably. I find I have to move further back from the screen than usual when viewing the images fullscreen on Youtube for example.

As the picture-maker, you have to make sure the two separate images are identical in terms of their content (which can be hard to do when the Cliffs Of Dover replays often don't generate the same objects and effects on consecutive plays), and identical in terms of being in synch with each other if they're moving pictures.

Beyond that, I guess you've just got to make sure you don't overdo it and strain yourself, just like anything really.

[jimbop]

I thought this was a raaaid thread at first... I'm surprised at how well it works but a couple of minutes is enough for my eyes! The shadows in the cockpit work very well in the video, interesting.

[BigC208]

I thought this was a raaaid thread at first... I'm surprised at how well it works but a couple of minutes is enough for my eyes! The shadows in the cockpit work very well in the video, interesting.

Pretty impressive. HD Stereoscopic visor anyone?

[Stefem]

That's interesting, didn't know that, might have to look into it before the novelty of this 3D stuff wears off.

Edit - Just enabled 3D in the nVidia control panel, started up a quick mission in Cliffs Of Dover and it was in the old red/blue anaglyph 3D! Lol, I hate that stuff. Does work though. Would be cool if they had a button that would turn the image into a perfectly aligned stereo pair like the cross-eyed technique uses.It doesn't matter the way the images are displayed on the screen (anaglyph, autostereo, glasses... ) the screenshot will be saved in JPS side by side format, otherwise the stereoscopic effect would be compromised by the JPG compression.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/218/launcher0675.jpg

http://imageshack.us/g/36/launcher0175.jpg/

[icarus]

Thanks for posting it full size. Looks great.

[superman]

Really cool stuff!

Any chance you can remake those vids in anaglyph (red/cyan) 3d?

[Les]

Really cool stuff!

Any chance you can remake those vids in anaglyph (red/cyan) 3d?

Sorry mate, I've already burnt the negs. Deleted the original footage that is.

[Les]

It doesn't matter the way the images are displayed on the screen (anaglyph, autostereo, glasses... ) the screenshot will be saved in JPS side by side format, otherwise the stereoscopic effect would be compromised by the JPG compression.

I can enable nVidia 3D Vision, and see the anaglyph type 3D when in-game. I can even use the nVidia 3D Photo Viewer and view their demo pictures in anaglyph and cross-eyed modes. But when doing screen captures with the latest full version of FRAPS, or by pressing PrtScn and then Ctrl V to open it up in Paint, I only get a normal looking picture (with FRAPS), or single anaglyph picture in Paint. I can't see any options in FRAPS or in the nVidia 3D Hotkey settings for doing a JPS screen capture. Any suggestions?

[superman]

Les

Have you seen stereo photo maker:

http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/

Makes every stereo format you can think of only stills thoug I believe)

[Stefem]

I can enable nVidia 3D Vision, and see the anaglyph type 3D when in-game. I can even use the nVidia 3D Photo Viewer and view their demo pictures in anaglyph and cross-eyed modes. But when doing screen captures with the latest full version of FRAPS, or by pressing PrtScn and then Ctrl V to open it up in Paint, I only get a normal looking picture (with FRAPS), or single anaglyph picture in Paint. I can't see any options in FRAPS or in the nVidia 3D Hotkey settings for doing a JPS screen capture. Any suggestions?

With 3D Vision you can take a screenshot by pressing Alt-F1, these 3D screenshots will be copied into the folder "C:\Users\[USERNAME]\Documents\NVStereoscopic3D.IMG" with the .JPS file extension (a side by side stereoscopic 3D JPEG file).

The default quality is set to 50% so the resulting image is very good but you can increase the quality by opening regedit and depending your OS go to:

32-bit Win:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\NVIDIA Corporation\Global\Stereo3D

64-bit Win:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\NVIDIA Corporation\Global\Stereo3D

find the DWARD "SnapShotQuality" and set the hex value to 64 (equals to 100%).


Alternatively for a better quality you can save them in PNS format (Side by Side PNG).
In order to do that you need to create a new DWORD value called "StereoImageType" and set it to 1 in the above registry location.

[Les]

Thanks for the info Stefem and Superman, will check it out.

[Les]

Another video. Again, best watched in expanded or full-screen view on Youtube.

The aim was to see if I could re-do the Black Death Benchmark Track in 3D. I think it turned out alright all things considered.

Tried to write a list of instructions here explaining how to make these kinds of video's, but it got too long and complicated.

I think the most important thing I can say, and the biggest lesson I've learned from this test is, if you want to make a video using the method I've used here, do it with a track you've recorded yourself specifically for that purpose.

Due to the nature of the manual 3D capturing method, and more so the limits of the games replay system, there are some kinds of shots you must avoid altogether in order to end up with a useable image at all. Beyond that, 3D video has it's own unique set of pre-requisites when it comes to shot composition and content. I don't know what all those do's and dont's are, but I have a better idea after making these test video's.

So, hopefully, if I do another one it will be less of a test and more of an attempt at ending up with a more finished result. But in the meantime - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGHY7VYLY6U

[Wolf_Rider]

Thank you


that brought a tear to an old bloke's eye - cheers

[Les]

With the help of Superman providing the link to the excellent stereo image viewer and converter here - http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/ and Stefem for explaining how to take stereo screenshots using the nVidia 3D capabilities, I've been able to compare nVidia's semi-automated 3D results to those you can get using the manual screencap & edit approach.

My results aren't definitive, and with some tweaking of the nVidia 3D parameters, maybe these results could be different, but...

Cliffs Of Dover and nVidia 3D are clearly having some issues.

Manual
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6095/1fraps.png
nVidia
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1075/1nvidia.png
Manual
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4096/2fraps.png
nVidia
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7659/2nvidia.png
Manual
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7295/3fraps.png
nVidia
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7780/3nvidia.png
Manual
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9877/4fraps.png
nVidia
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6539/4nvidia.png
Manual
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3576/5fraps.png
nVidia
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2389/5nvidia.png
Manual
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1289/6fraps.png
nVidia
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9247/6nvidia.png
Manual
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5558/7fraps.png
nVidia
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9735/7nvidia.png
Manual
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/664/8fraps.png
nVidia
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8804/8nvidia.png
Manual
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6285/9fraps.png
nVidia
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/940/9nvidia.png
Manual
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5987/10fraps.png
nVidia
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8599/10nvidia.png
Manual
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3158/11fraps.png
nVidia
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/857/11nvidia.png

These nVidia screenshots were taken in PNS format, using what looked at the time to be approximately the same amount of camera offset as the PNG FRAPS captures, but the 3D effectiveness is quite different. This might be a result of adjusting some other nVidia settings incorrectly, or it might not be, I don't know. I'm assuming there must be some way of adjusting the nVidia 3D parameters so that the basic 3D effect is more pronounced, because if there isn't then what's the point?

I don't think the bugged out water and shadows on the nVidia shots is the result of an end-user setting though.

I was hoping to see if I could use the nVidia 3D, then run the game in slow motion and take repeated 3D screenshots that I could then compile in a video-editor as a moving image sequence. That would have meant not having to use the game's buggy replay system and manually resetting the camera position for every shot. But I guess there ain't no easy way out:grin:

Maybe some of the other nVidia 3D users can confirm these graphics bugs I'm seeing and perhaps suggest some solutions.

[Stefem]

There's not yet a dedicated profile for CoD so convergence isn't set at the best, anyway, users can create custom convergence profile if they want and the 3D depth can be adjusted in the NVIDIA control panel.
Shadows are bugged in 3D but I don't know if it's a driver problem or must be corrected on the engine side.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Many thanks for the 3d content, however this is not the correct depth/seperation. Its similar to what would often happen in IL2, which is that the cockpit didnt seem to be rendered at the correct depth forcing you into a 'toy story' type 3d.

Basically, your perspective are way too far apart and make everything look small - including itty bitty cute toy planes.

This is an entertaining effect, be sure, but thats not how it should look! Doing this makes depth perception in the distance (Where you really need it) suffer and makes it very hard to shift from looking in and out of the cockpit.

[Les]

Many thanks for the 3d content, however this is not the correct depth/seperation. Its similar to what would often happen in IL2, which is that the cockpit didnt seem to be rendered at the correct depth forcing you into a 'toy story' type 3d.

Basically, your perspective are way too far apart and make everything look small - including itty bitty cute toy planes.

This is an entertaining effect, be sure, but thats not how it should look! Doing this makes depth perception in the distance (Where you really need it) suffer and makes it very hard to shift from looking in and out of the cockpit.

While I did push the 3D separation about as far as I could in order to make the 3D effect as obvious as possible, I'm not sure I agree with you about what the 'correct' depth/separation should be. I have my doubts that the kind of depth separation you're describing is actually possible to create on something as small as even the largest computer monitor. I'm not even sure it happens in real-life, where there are also limits to the distance at which we can perceive things stereoscopically. Do you have any pictures to show what you mean?

[machoo]

So looking at the clod pictures , I can't tell the difference at all.

[JG26_EZ]

http://www.redferret.net/Images/3d_2DDinosaur.gif

The photo that was linked in one of the earlier posts that has the picture of the dinosaur, best describes what irR4tiOn4L is trying to say (I think). If you look closely, you can see that the nose moves less than the rear section of the head. This is the depth perception problem that I believe is being discussed above.

So, I think that it's not just as easy as taking an image from two different angles when you've got such depth as miles of background visible. My suggestion would be, to crop the spit away from the background, and have the spitfire's amount of adjustment different than the background scenery's adjustment. (Basically, if you were 5 feet in front of a spitfire looking back at it, and you moved your head from side to side, you'd see more unseen areas of the spitfire than you'd see of the background.)

If ya get me..

(I'd set it up, but it is 100% impossible for me to see 3D with those types of images, and my eye doctor will back me up on that one.)

[Ailantd]

Having researched 3D stereoscopy myself I can tell you that for a realistic effect two things are needed: First, the shift between the two virtual cameras should be the same in game that in real between the two eyes. With only this you have a "realistic" representation of depth in game, BUT an unrealistic feeling of it, because... the fov and monitor size. For a realistic and natural feeling you also need to fit the fov to a realistic value AND use a surface where that realistic fov actually fits your real field of view. If you do both you will have a complete being there feeling with a nice and beliable depth effect. Of course depth is also more noticeable in close objects that in very far ones. That´s normal: you can accurately tell the distance between two close object in cm, but hardly you will do the same between two aircraft even in kilometers without using other info like apparent size.

The main probem with nvidia screenshots is the shadow. It seems that shadow map is not recalculed for the second screenshot ( don´t know if thsis is driver problem or it needs to be implementd by devs, but I would bet for the second one), so shadow projection in the second image fails.

[Ailantd]

The photo that was linked in one of the earlier posts that has the picture of the dinosaur, best describes what irR4tiOn4L is trying to say (I think). If you look closely, you can see that the nose moves less than the rear section of the head. This is the depth perception problem that I believe is being discussed above.

So, I think that it's not just as easy as taking an image from two different angles when you've got such depth as miles of background visible. My suggestion would be, to crop the spit away from the background, and have the spitfire's amount of adjustment different than the background scenery's adjustment. (Basically, if you were 5 feet in front of a spitfire looking back at it, and you moved your head from side to side, you'd see more unseen areas of the spitfire than you'd see of the background.)

If ya get me..

(I'd set it up, but it is 100% impossible for me to see 3D with those types of images, and my eye doctor will back me up on that one.)

Problem with that dinosaur is that 3d effect is achieved moving the dino head, and no simulating the two eyes point of view. The 3d effect is similar, but the way the model moves is not. As you noted in real stereoscopic the closer an object is to the eyes, the more shift it has between the two images.

[JG26_EZ]

Yes, and the pic was only to show the difference between the foreground vs. the background.

[irR4tiOn4L]

While I did push the 3D separation about as far as I could in order to make the 3D effect as obvious as possible, I'm not sure I agree with you about what the 'correct' depth/separation should be. I have my doubts that the kind of depth separation you're describing is actually possible to create on something as small as even the largest computer monitor. I'm not even sure it happens in real-life, where there are also limits to the distance at which we can perceive things stereoscopically. Do you have any pictures to show what you mean?

I will try to put together a picture that shows what I mean (as soon as i figure out CLOD's camera controls for enough precision). But to see what I mean, just compare your screenshots to the nvidia ones (ignoring the shadows). Notice that when looking, for example, at the cockpit in Nividia's effect, it looks like it is some way in front of you - but yours look like a model right in front of you.

The 3d effect should not really be that strong anyway - in reality, as someone pointed out, far off objects are all focussed close to each other and stereoscopy is very limited - after all, how different will an object 10km away look to eyes seperated by 10cm? Hardly any stereoscopic effect will be visible at that distance.

The other problem I was describing really had to do with nvidia's old drivers on edimensional glasses in IL2 and the inability to get a decent effect along with a decent cockpit depth. I dont know if thats still the case, but your photos are being done manually anyway.

As someone pointed out, FOV might also be something that needs to be taken into account.

EDIT: Well, these are my efforts. Second has lower FOV and slight angle change, and is probably closer to the mark in terms of apparent size of the cockpit and depth outside the cockpit. Not quite right either way though.

http://i39.tinypic.com/sl2pox.jpg


http://i43.tinypic.com/abrv5h.jpg

EDIT: Best exterior shot I could get - sorry, camera controls are super fiddly. Its not much different to yours, tbh. But notice how it looks 'deeper' into the monitor, rather than appearing to 'pop out' of it. Nothing should be 'popping out' of the monitor unless its literally closer than a metre or so.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2j1v11i.jpg


These are certainly not the height of 3d, but if you compare to yours, almost all of yours have something that appears to be closer than the bezel of my monitor. This is too close for things that, in most cases, are about 5-50m away. The 3d effect is of course stronger as a result, but its probably stronger than it would be in reality.

While watching the various screenshots here, try 'grabbing' at them (without obscuring them) with your hands - how far are you reaching when it seems you are 'touching' them?

[SQB]

Well whaddaya know, I was experimenting with some 3d pictures in Il2 just last week! I should post them up here...
imgur link (http://imgur.com/a/YmjC8#1)

[machoo]

I'm confused. The pictures look the same , what am I missing?

[irR4tiOn4L]

I'm confused. The pictures look the same , what am I missing?

You need to go crosseyed. Take a finger in front of you, watch it with your eyes, then bring it up to your nose. Now look at the monitor and SLOWLY de-cross your eyes until the 3d picture comes into focus.

What you will see is a stereoscopic 3d image that is just as good as using Nvidia 3dvision/other shutterglasses/polarised glasses, but much more uncomfortable and much smaller. If you like this, you should look into getting 3d vision or similar.

[Les]

...These are certainly not the height of 3d, but if you compare to yours, almost all of yours have something that appears to be closer than the bezel of my monitor. This is too close for things that, in most cases, are about 5-50m away. The 3d effect is of course stronger as a result, but its probably stronger than it would be in reality...

I think I see what you mean. The depth on your pictures is set from the point of view of the camera, as if the monitor screen itself is where our eyes are placed. This results in a more realistic sense of depth from an in-game point of view. Whereas the depth on my pictures is set as if looking from my own actual eyes at objects on a monitor, making them look more like little models seen from 'outside' the game world.

Of course, which of these depths, or some level inbetween, people prefer to actually use or see, is up to them. To show off the 3D effect in the most obvious way I'd probably push it as far as I did in the pictures I posted. But if I were to actually game in 3D, I'd probably use a setting closer to the ones you've shown, as I generally do prefer to see things depicted in a more immersive life-like way.

I think it'll be a while before that happens though.

I think Aliantd summed it up well - "...for a realistic effect two things are needed: First, the shift between the two virtual cameras should be the same in game that in real between the two eyes. With only this you have a "realistic" representation of depth in game, BUT an unrealistic feeling of it, because... the fov and monitor size. For a realistic and natural feeling you also need to fit the fov to a realistic value AND use a surface where that realistic fov actually fits your real field of view. If you do both you will have a complete being there feeling with a nice and beliable depth effect..."

Until we can screen things life-size, with a life-like resolution or amount of detail, and using a life-like FOV, there's always going to be a compromise required when trying to recreate a realistic in-game world, especially in 3D.

We can't forget either that it's actually other (probably currently impossible) in-game details we require in order to determine three-dimensionality, especially when it comes to perceiving depth at distances beyond our capability to resolve it stereoscopically. Shadowing, relative size (of known objects), colour or tone (how it changes over distance) are what we use in real life to determine where objects are in relation to each other, and if that information is lacking in-game the 3D illusion won't be complete regardless of the level or accuracy of the (comparitively limited) stereoscopic effects.

There are even physiological cues we get from our eyes that help us determine three dimensionality in our surroundings, muscles that expand and contract in our eyes and which we can actually feel. If the 3D illusion doesn't trigger those responses it will always seem a little bit off somehow, or even worse, cause discomfort or strain.

All in all there's a long way to go yet.

[irR4tiOn4L]

I think I see what you mean. The depth on your pictures is set from the point of view of the camera, as if the monitor screen itself is where our eyes are placed. This results in a more realistic sense of depth from an in-game point of view. Whereas the depth on my pictures is set as if looking from my own actual eyes at objects on a monitor, making them look more like little models seen from 'outside' the game world.

Its actually something different, and the lack of 'pop out' in my pictures is by accident, not design. Basically, my seperation (the shift between the left and right eye perspectives) is set based on an approximation of how far the pilot's eyes, ingame, would be apart. I try and shift the camera by about 10 ingame centimetres, regardless of monitor/where my own eyes are.

In practice, this makes for a fairly realistic depth and seperation that then means there's no popout - objects appearing to be closer to me than my own monitor - because ingame, there were no objects that actually came that close to the camera's position! In other words, because you are looking at planes that are 5-50m away, you are not supposed to have them appearing to be closer than the 1m or so you sit from your monitor!

In your photos, you seem to have shifted the perspectives more than 10 ingame cm's or so and this has the effect of making everything look smaller - because relative to the gap between your eyes, everything IS smaller!

Imagine if you measured the world based upon the distance between your eyes (which we kind of do when it comes to 3d) - if the distance between your eyes increases, the world will suddenly appear smaller!

So that's why your photos seem more like tiny models - because your seperation might be as much as an ingame meter or two, not roughly 10cm.


Of course, which of these depths, or some level inbetween, people prefer to actually use or see, is up to them. To show off the 3D effect in the most obvious way I'd probably push it as far as I did in the pictures I posted. But if I were to actually game in 3D, I'd probably use a setting closer to the ones you've shown, as I generally do prefer to see things depicted in a more immersive life-like way.

This is definitely true. 3D effects are of course much stronger with larger seperations. If you are dealing with objects 50+ m away, and your depth perception only goes to say a km (by which point there is too little difference between the left and right eye perspectives to see stereoscopic depth), then making everything appear smaller so that objects previously 50m away are now 5m away and objects 10km away are now a 1km away will definitely improve the 3d effect.

But it wont be realistic, everything will look small and itll be tiring on the eyes.

Still, many people like this


I think Aliantd summed it up well - "...for a realistic effect two things are needed: First, the shift between the two virtual cameras should be the same in game that in real between the two eyes. With only this you have a "realistic" representation of depth in game, BUT an unrealistic feeling of it, because... the fov and monitor size. For a realistic and natural feeling you also need to fit the fov to a realistic value AND use a surface where that realistic fov actually fits your real field of view. If you do both you will have a complete being there feeling with a nice and beliable depth effect..."

Until we can screen things life-size, with a life-like resolution or amount of detail, and using a life-like FOV, there's always going to be a compromise required when trying to recreate a realistic in-game world, especially in 3D.

Thats true and in practice you can generally set these things with 3d vision and the like.

However, the most impressive effects - generally the tiny model effect which maximises depth - is really hard on the eyes longer term when playing these games. Its also unrealistic any way you cut it. Hence why I think, generally, a small amount of seperation for a realistic appearance is best for longer term play.


We can't forget either that it's actually other (probably currently impossible) in-game details we require in order to determine three-dimensionality, especially when it comes to perceiving depth at distances beyond our capability to resolve it stereoscopically. Shadowing, relative size (of known objects), colour or tone (how it changes over distance) are what we use in real life to determine where objects are in relation to each other, and if that information is lacking in-game the 3D illusion won't be complete regardless of the level or accuracy of the (comparitively limited) stereoscopic effects.

There are even physiological cues we get from our eyes that help us determine three dimensionality in our surroundings, muscles that expand and contract in our eyes and which we can actually feel. If the 3D illusion doesn't trigger those responses it will always seem a little bit off somehow, or even worse, cause discomfort or strain.

All in all there's a long way to go yet.

True, but having said that, many of these are already present making the 3d effect pretty darn good.

Generally strain is not bad with realistic seperation (Again, making the planes appear a metre from you is very hard on the eyes) and mostly comes from the flickering/darkening of the image.

You can even improve depth perception WITHOUT stereoscopic 3d by using a fresnel lens in front of your monitor. This basically straightens the light coming out of the monitor to appear as if its source was further back and makes the monitor appear like a large surface some distance from you - which apparently has benefits for our perception of depth in the image.

[Faman]

Uh what's the fuzz? I already have Nvidia 3D Vision with glasses and Acer 3D Monitor. Tested CoD longtime ago and most noticable are the in-cockpit views and it's depth. Outside views don't differ much and I rather see a 2D screen for the landscape in the background.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Uh what's the fuzz? I already have Nvidia 3D Vision with glasses and Acer 3D Monitor. Tested CoD longtime ago and most noticable are the in-cockpit views and it's depth. Outside views don't differ much and I rather see a 2D screen for the landscape in the background.

We weren't actually discussing 3D vision per se but the 3d pictures les posted here and the ones i did - which were made by manually stitching together screenshots, not using 3D vision. We were just discussing the proper depth and seperation that should appear.

3D vision seems to have about the right depth from the photos posted by les that were made using it, but it does have some of its own issues of course like shadows and trees it seems.

Back when I tested IL2 though, the 3d effect seemed borked due to the dificulty of getting good results on both the outside world and cockpit.

[raaaid]

hey i tried stereoscopy in the game and didnt work

does the iz3d drivers work?

can you do this with the game?

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/depth_perception.png

[raaaid]

hey i have one question for you all:

after having watched those pics you have an idea of what depth perception is

now have you wonder why you dont have that perception in real life?i do have it some times after huge training i know you dont

is that a big fat cow far away or a small one close?

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8273/20675604.jpg

[irR4tiOn4L]

We DO have that kind of depth perception in life, but not on that SCALE when dealing with aircraft. Our eyes are not far enough apart to provide that STRONG a depth perception effect.

That was why I said the seperation on those photos was too large - its like looking at a lego war.

[raaaid]

no you dont understand:

when you watch a 3d image you have a depth perception you dont have in real life, you have a different enhanced depthe perception in 3d movies from real life

the thing is that nobody perceives depth as you percieve it in a 3d movie

nobody?

well i have had 5 seconds long depth perception IDENTICAL to being inside a 3d movie

im learning to see from flat, as i have seen all my life, to see in 3d

edit:

something that blows my mind that you will consider utterly insane is that after training i see this in 3d and can tell which star is close and which is far away since i see it in 3d:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/mw4.jpg

THE SECRET TO SEE 3D IN REAL LIFE:

cross your eyes slightly from the object youre looking at while keeping it focused with the eye lens

easy?

well ive been training for years and im starting to hardly be able to see in 3d with great effort, breaking the near triad synced interconnection its difficult

the craziest thing from this is that with that method its pretty easy to see this video in 3d

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTvgnYGu9bg&list=FLYQFAGpkzeOzPbniEw3BIRg&index=22&feature=plpp_video

my rational self decieves saying that i obtain depth from the video from the focus

my irrational self remembers me that i often see flat tv in 3d and that ive seen tv freeze and image like this:

http://www.redferret.net/Images/3d_2DDinosaur.gif

well according years of reasearch i got the conclusion that the world is atged by colour blind people, they dont even tell black and white

even though they are great painters who use depth painting like this:

here you have a sample of depth colour paint:

http://www.3dwonderstuff.com/Images/optical_illusions/stereogram_oi_chromo_l.jpg

and here a sample of black shade depth paint:

http://yaplog.jp/tek_tek/img/70/102168992_d193e10dd0_m.jpg

you cant even imagine to what degree the world is staged, my most lower claculations is that 99% of people are actors

[JG26_EZ]

I don't see how it's possible to see parts of a 2D image that aren't there in the first place.

I have to ask.. Where do you buy your LSD from, and how much is it? ;)

[raaaid]

do you want to be able to percieve the fourth dimension:

you know now how to see double:

take two identical pencils aiming away from you on a table and look double at them overimposing them

depending on weather the pencils shape a v a ^ or a II your having the perception of the fourth dimension within the third in different directions

so in the third dimension you know the pencils aim away but in the fourth dimesion you see them aiming towards you

think about it from stereoscopic flat surface you perceive 3d from stereoscopy volume you percieve 4d

thats why its so relevant us not having depth perception, if we did we would have accs to the fourth dimension + time

[irR4tiOn4L]

Raaid, I hate to kind of shower on your parade here, but we most certainly DO see the stereoscopic effect you get in a 3d movie in reality (its why 3d movies are even possible - each eye gets a different picture and our brain figures out distance from the differing perspectives) but not only that, as you have found out, our brain also gets a lot of other cues from our bodies and eyes, even 2d images, and is able to get distance information from that.

So in reality, our depth perception might not SEEM as obvious or fancy as a 3d movie, but thats because its so effective and all pervasive that we dont appreciate it as much anymore - we just see and intuitively know how far away things are.

No 3d movie or game or mental trickery on 2d images equals our eyes in actual 3 dimensional space.

[raaaid]

then maybe its just me and the people whom i talked

but i dont see real life like a 3d movie

in fact check the 3d test for depth perception

http://www.mediacollege.com/3d/depth-perception/test.html

its about weather you see DOUBLE depending on convergence or not actually not about that odd perception you get in 3d movies, stereopsis

try also look at square pattern on the sidwalk crossedeyed as an stereogram and also youll see it 3d , youll see the difference than with normal vision

[raaaid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9E9HrDrZYM[/QUOTE]

see how contrary to a car you dont see vertical bars double BUT IN 3D

[Ailantd]

no you dont understand:

(...)



Raaaid, now seriously, you have to tell your parents take you to the doctor.

[raaaid]

i visit regularly the doctor

you dont undesrtand:

in a game stereoscopic cockpit you dont see bars double when you look far away but in real life you do

explain me that

then you cant bring down my staged world by blind colour alien hypothesis

[raaaid]

Raaaid, now seriously, you have to tell your parents take you to the doctor.

i wonder i need a doctor cause i PONDER( i give it a 1% chance) that the wolrd is satged which would imply a good nature of the universe sincehooror would be fake

this is called a consistent thought, seems bizarre but makes sense

now youre pretty much CONVINCED of the media horror and at the same time, like nearly everybody believe in the good nature of the universe

this is called something patently false since its contradictory

so do you realize you like most is convinced of something patently false while have the face to call the doctor when a guy expresses with honesty?

i guess if i had said the first women came from the first man rib i wouldnt need a doctor

well check the symtoms of delusion and tell me which i full fill since you first threw the stone:

the psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his 1913 book General Psychopathology.[2] These criteria are:
certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

[Les]

can you do this with the game?

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/depth_perception.png

Tilt shift lenses can recreate that sense of scale in 2D, do a Google search for 'tilt shift lens video' and you'll find some examples.

In regards to seeing the proper scale of clouds and things in-game, that can be experienced by projecting the game at 1:1 scale onto a large screen. I never realized how massive the clouds in the game actually are until I saw that.

And, for what it's worth Raaid, I too have seen the kind of movie-like 3D effect in real life that you're describing. And yes, I've even seen it while playing IL2 (:shock:!!!). But, so what, it's no big deal. It just requires some concentration and a shift in perception, to notice something in real life we usually just take for granted, and to allow your senses to be more thoroughly tricked by the illusion of three dimensional space being depicted in a game (or picture). It's a trivial thing really, but some people can do it and some people can't, so you have to be careful. I think it's just as ridiculous for those who can do it to say it's something mystical or other-worldy as it is for those who can't do it to say it's impossible.

The senses are easily tricked, into perceiving things that aren't there and into not perceiving things that are there (most people would be surprised).

Anyway...too much OT now for me.

[raaaid]

yes i just dont like to be call crazy for expressing for honesty

i hate that real world attitude of having to look normal when everybody has bizarre thoughts who they silence

yes i withdraw my saying my perception like in a 3d movie its unique

as a matter of fact im begining to learn to control it:

if i look normal i see flat as i have done all my life

but if cross my eyes VERY SLIGHTLY WITHOUT LOSING THE FOCUS i achieve a more 3d perception the more i cross the eyes before seeing doeuble moment the perception is gone

this is wrong:

"Stereopsis or retinal (binocular) disparity - Animals that have their eyes placed frontally can also use information derived from the different projection of objects onto each retina to judge depth. By using two images of the same scene obtained from slightly different angles, it is possible to triangulate the distance to an object with a high degree of accuracy"

stereopsis is an illusion actually, a construction of the mind, retines are actually flat

if you see this double as the other images \ / they cant be geometrically overimposed yet your brain does an I with depth appearance, no triangulation

edit:


wow thanks this can not explain:

http://media.smashingmagazine.com/images/tilt-shift-photography/tennis.jpg

edit

and i insist:

you know when you drive you see the verticals bars of the car double when looking far away

verify your self, so what i say you can see that makes sense, that with an artificial 3d perception(actually a real 3d perception) you dont see vertical bars double when looking faraway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9E9HrDrZYM&feature=player_embedded


what do you have to say at this?

[Ailantd]

i visit regularly the doctor

you dont undesrtand:

in a game stereoscopic cockpit you dont see bars double when you look far away but in real life you do

explain me that

then you cant bring down my staged world by blind colour alien hypothesis

In fact I do, I see double bars in stereoscopic images when focusing the far landscape.

[raaaid]

strange i dont

probably les is right about people having different perceptions

for example maybe where you see blue i see red but we just happen to agree in the name of the colour but not its perception

i wonder do you percieve depth here, youre expected to percieve it:

http://yaplog.jp/tek_tek/img/70/102168992_d193e10dd0_m.jpg

[Ailantd]

Raaaid...
I´m going to ask you to do one little experiment. So, please, try this:
Run the sim, if possible in a wide screen. Close one of your eyes and try to fit the visual screen to cover all you visual field, or at least, as much as you can while capable of focus the image. Also try to center your non stereoscopic point of view in the center of the image.
Then, with track Ir or mouse, start moving a bit the point of view. Better if you displace the view plus rotate it. Try this for a few seconds and then tell me what do you see.

There are various ways to feel deph and stereoscopic is not the only one. Real stereoscopy is the only way to feel realistic deph when no other information is provided or memoriced by the brain. But the 3D feel is in fact created by the brain, and the brain can recreate it with only one source image IF it have all the other neccesary information to do that. In this case that information become from image movement and your previous knowledge of the cockpit and how the perspective works ( the brain "know" all this ). So the brain can reconstruct the sense of deeph. And doing this you can feel the 3D even without seeing double the objects that are out of focus. I know not every people can see this effect with only one eye, but I see it as well as I do crossing the eyes with two images. BUT is a fake sense of deph and if you try to play ( or drive a car ) that way you are going to miss a lot of targets ( or hitting a lot of other cars ) because bad calculations. Is like the brain filling the dead spot of our vision. Appears to be real, but is not. If you put some small object in that spot, that object will vanish completely.

Now, when we are talking about real deph feeling builded by the brain trough two images, the sense of scale becomes certainly from eyes separation and image sizes as I posted before in this threat. Where I used to work we had a cave ( I´m a 3d modeler and I was modeling 3d enviroments for that thing ), wich is a big cube where all faces are screens and where you enter with a steresocopic glasses and a fully head tracking. In the screens you project sterescopic images calculated from your actual point of view inside the cube. This way, with the correct space between eyes rendering, and the fully size and scale of the image, the sense of being there is absolutely real and fully credible. It´s an amazing experience. I literally could enter and walk my 3d enviroments and after a while you can forguet that was only a fake image and tryed to touch everything and avoid colision with objects.

The problem with 3D video games or cinema is that they lack the possibility of project a fully realistic scale image from the point of view of the user, so you get weird 3D effects, usualy exaggerated. Otherway raaid, the sensation is fully real and no different in ANY WAY from the real thing.

Edit:
I have found a cave photo in google, I post just as curiosity. The one I worked on was very similar to this:

http://www.raciondepersonalidad.es/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/cave.jpg

http://veryspatial.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/zachmorg2.jpg

[raaaid]

"The problem with 3D video games or cinema is that they lack the possibility of project a fully realistic scale image from the point of view of the user, so you get weird 3D effects, usualy exaggerated. Otherway raaid, the sensation is fully real and no different in ANY WAY from the real thing."

youre wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

in words of a hollywood expert:

"our intention is to make stereoscopic images so perfect you cant tell 3d as you cant tell in real life"

now you think im crazy for pondering tv is such 3d so the blind colour angels can see it

then how do you explain my having watch on tv a frozen defective image like this at least two times?

http://www.redferret.net/Images/3d_2DDinosaur.gif

im just consequent with my observations without minding to follow the herd, do you really think that makes me crazy?

[Ailantd]

You still have not tell me what you see doing the experiment I ask you to do.

That video does not proof nothing: What that thing does is just the same thing trak-Ir does in our sim, but with the wii and with a model that increase the sensation. Nothing more. There is no stereoscopic sense there, only a virtual camera movement from the relative head point of view. The only diference is that the wii traking have a very wide angle and you can walk far away from the screen while still working. The rest of the sensation is provided by movement and reconstructed by the brain in the same faked way that when you see with only one eye.



in words of a hollywood expert:

"our intention is to make stereoscopic images so perfect you cant tell 3d as you cant tell in real life"


Yeah, and all washing machine soaps are the best, we know.
In cinema is even more evident that in videogames world, that unless they remove the screen and provide you with fully stero glasses that cover all your field of view projecting the right scale stereoscopic images, that statement "you cant tell 3d as you cant tell in real life" is not going to happen, ever. Only one people in the cinema can be in the real relative position from the shot was taken. All the other people brains had to handle the perspective distortion of the screen. Brain is good to do that things and it does, but the sesation is, and is going to be, sligly different than the real stereoscopic world, while they can´t match all viewing parameters, like a cave does.


now you think im crazy for pondering tv is such 3d so the blind colour angels can see it

then how do you explain my having watch on tv a frozen defective image like this at least two times?


And here I have to admit, that not being english my natural languaje, and even using google traslator, I have not a clue what you want to say.

[raaaid]

yes showing the right image in movies can only work for one person

but in games there just one person

what johny lee does is match the fov of the game and the fov that the screen takes from your eyes

on this way however distance to the screen your always wacthing the "right" image perspective

that is NOT just 6dof its a WINDOW effect

the problem is that nobody sems to understand that but a very few

[Ailantd]

yes showing the right image in movies can only work for one person

but in games there just one person

what johny lee does is match the fov of the game and the fov that the screen takes from your eyes

on this way however distance to the screen your always wacthing the "right" image perspective

that is NOT just 6dof its a WINDOW effect

the problem is that nobody sems to understand that but a very few

It IS a 6dof with the right camera movement to simulate a window. In fact I think it only follow displacement, and not rotation... whatever.
I have lot of years of experience in 3D and sterescopy and I had tryed that myself. I know pretty well what it does, and while interesting it has nothing related to stereoscopy.


In games there is only one person, BUT the screen size still lacks the fitting to the real thing scale, and that is a requirement to have the realistic sensation.
Again, when real full field of view stereo glasses arrive, then we are going to have amazing experiences in videogames and movies with stereo. Before that... unless you have a surface to stereo project in big size with a nice tracking... we don´t.

I mean, you could try to simulate a realistic projecton in the screen size, like if the screen were a real window, but this has several main problems. First is the edges of the image where the ilusion would break, using trakIr scaled rotation would kill the effect also. But the more important, you would need to play with a zoom that would made the game completely unplayable. So if you want stereo games in a screen today, you have to play like if objects were small models and not real size items.

[raaaid]

wtach 3:37 of the johny lee video and youll see how this system contrary to 6dof is like a window since IT CHANGES FOV with position

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw&feature=player_embedded

this other video reflects two things:

1) how the johny lee system is old and widely used in media if you think about it, game design is light years away from tv media

2) for what i know bin laden could not be death, 911 could have been a green screen thing, in fact even nyc could be a green screen thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTli6tlLg0M

[Ailantd]

raaaid... what was your point?. I lost the track of the conversation.
That things can be faked in media? sure.

But I though we were talking about how real a 3D stereo can be and if you could see 3D stereo in 2D photographs. I don´t know were are you going now.

[raaaid]

that green screen apply the very same concept from your cave:

it renders the right perspective from the observer-camera point of view

if games did that which is posible with headtracking and you added it 3d you couldnt tell the difference from the game to looking at real life from a window

ive seen refered johny lee efect on tv as cheap 3d

and your rgiht moving sidways increases your depth perception is very tipical on movies

[Ailantd]

that green screen apply the very same concept from your cave:

it renders the right perspective from the observer-camera point of view

if games did that which is posible with headtracking and you added it 3d you couldnt tell the difference from the game to looking at real life from a window

ive seen refered johny lee efect on tv as cheap 3d

and your rgiht moving sidways increases your depth perception is very tipical on movies



Its not the same:

cave/FullFOVglasses chroma/cinena game3D cinema3D johny system

stereo V X V V X

fov V X X X V

scale V X X X V

movement V X V X V

edit:
I made a nice table... but the format does not save it.


In a cave you have stereo, matching fov, scale and movement.
In a normal cinema, even with chroma, you have nothing of this. The perspective of the chroma fits the whole image, but not your own perspective or point of view.
In a game 3D you can have stereo, matching fov and movment, but not scale ( unless using the window mode I talked about in the later post that would made the game unplayable because of the zoom )
In cinema 3D you have stereo, but you can not match the fov, scale or movement.
In Jony system you match fov, scale ( with the limit of the screen wich is a limit that does not exist in a cave ) and movement, but not stereo.

[raaaid]

yes i think we agree

the cave its like being there johny lee system like looking there through a window

on the other topic i cant tell for others

but i have never seen reality like in a 3d movie except for brief seconds during my life though according tests my binocular vision works

on the other hand the wikipedia explain stereopsis as triangulation, THIS IS WRONG,

from the superposition with each eye of \ and / your brain builds I in depth, that is how it really works

[Ailantd]

yes i think we agree

the cave its like being there johny lee system like looking there through a window

on the other topic i cant tell for others

but i have never seen reality like in a 3d movie except for brief seconds during my life though according tests my binocular vision works

on the other hand the wikipedia explain stereopsis as triangulation, THIS IS WRONG,

from the superposition with each eye of \ and / your brain builds I in depth, that is how it really works

Yes, but the johny system is worse than looking trough a window, as it not provides two different images. It can completely fool you if you are far away from the screen so that the two images were almost the same, but if you come close to the screen the effect is lost.

The problem with cinema is that is not capable to match all parameters that your brain needs to be completely fooled as it only can offer stereo, but nothing more. So the brain do what it can do with that information and makes you feel a sensation that is not the same from reality. Like when you cross your eyes in reality providing the brain wrong information. It´s a kind of new sensation we called 3D because we need to call it with some name and 3D sounds cool. Also cinemakers want you to feel that new sensation so they exaggerated it to be more noticieable and people say ohhh, ahhhh.... nothing more. They call that real 3D but is not. You know what real 3D is when you have tryed a cave. Then you know that a real 3D is possible and is far away from the 3D cinema experience.

Of course the 3D feel like any other feeling or sensation is "brain made". I think wikipedia is talking about from the deph information comes, and here yes, it comes from some kind of triangularization that is processed in the brain. Of course, you can feel 3D without it, but then the information is faked by the brain and is not representative of reality.

[raaaid]

so as an expert whats your theory of my seeing this in 3d?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/mw4.jpg

hallucination

subtle chromostereopsis

subtle shade with distance with hints my brain into distance

that is actually such an alien perfect 3d you dont notice as you dont notice 3d in real life

...

[irR4tiOn4L]

Tilt shift lenses can recreate that sense of scale in 2D, do a Google search for 'tilt shift lens video' and you'll find some examples.

In regards to seeing the proper scale of clouds and things in-game, that can be experienced by projecting the game at 1:1 scale onto a large screen. I never realized how massive the clouds in the game actually are until I saw that.

And, for what it's worth Raaid, I too have seen the kind of movie-like 3D effect in real life that you're describing. And yes, I've even seen it while playing IL2 (:shock:!!!). But, so what, it's no big deal. It just requires some concentration and a shift in perception, to notice something in real life we usually just take for granted, and to allow your senses to be more thoroughly tricked by the illusion of three dimensional space being depicted in a game (or picture). It's a trivial thing really, but some people can do it and some people can't, so you have to be careful. I think it's just as ridiculous for those who can do it to say it's something mystical or other-worldy as it is for those who can't do it to say it's impossible.

The senses are easily tricked, into perceiving things that aren't there and into not perceiving things that are there (most people would be surprised).

Anyway...too much OT now for me.

I think most people can perceive depth in 2d images by nature. Try this for example - close one eye - do you still see depth? Yes, you do, and why is that? Because the brain relies on cues other than JUST stereoscopic vision.

Of course, in a 2d image on a monitor, some cues conflict (stereoscopic vision is saying "NOT 3D" while other cues are saying "3D") and so you have to fight your brain, depending on how strong your stereoscopic vision bias is, to focus on certain cues and see more '3d'. I too can look at a picture and see a flat image or, with focus, have a perception of depth. I think most people can.

Where I'm baffled all in is when Raaiid describes not seeing the 3d effect in reality BUT SEEING IT IN A 3D MOVIE! I think he just tends to ignore the effect in real life (like most everyone else) without realising its there, and after going to a 3d movie where the effect is often exaggerated with excessive seperation or where the sheer visual drama gives it a big wow factor, he now expects reality to 'wow' him in the same way. But reality isn't as novel as Avatar. Well raaiid, go up in a plane, or grand canyon, or other such things and youll realise that theres a heck of a '3d' effect going on there!

I should also mention that, apart from 3d vision, for your average home user putting a fresnel lense, which straightens out light to infinity, in front of your monitor will give you a depth perception effect all on its own, will reduce eyestrain and will strengthen the 3d effect with stereoscopic glasses. We can't control for all factors in games/cinema, but we can give enough cues to build a very respectable 3d effect.

[raaaid]

well maybe my asumption im normal is not correct

the thing is that i see everything flat except 3d movies

but im learning to control my 3d perception

im learning to see 3d by crosing very slightly my eyes without seeing blurred, that is unfocused, so i can have at will a 3d or flat perception

[Ailantd]

so as an expert whats your theory of my seeing this in 3d?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/mw4.jpg

hallucination

subtle chromostereopsis

subtle shade with distance with hints my brain into distance

that is actually such an alien perfect 3d you dont notice as you dont notice 3d in real life

...

As I said, I can believe that you feel that in 3D as a brain, yes, hallucination or fake 3D, extracted from other information ( I think is not difficult for any in this forum to realize your brain works in a extrange way ).
As you said shade/fog can contribute to depth perception, unless in space there is no fog but in nebulas, so that shade, if is there, is not related to depth.

But, even if I can asume the possibility that you feel 3d sensation looking a 2d photo where is no depth information available ( like fog or perspective ), I can´t in any way think that the depth information you think you are extracting from that photo is representative of reality, because that information simply is not there.

If you agree with this, nice. If you don´t there is extremely easy to prove you wrong. You can render two spheres with arbitrary different sizes, one closer to the camera and then you have to tell what one is closer. There is no way you can do that without pure casuality. Or even more easy. You can do this even in the real world. Pick two stars at night, guess wich one is closer, then compare it with astronomical data. You will found you wrong most of the times.

[raaaid]

Where I'm baffled all in is when Raaiid describes not seeing the 3d effect in reality BUT SEEING IT IN A 3D MOVIE!

actually by ailantd description of seeing the bar double in that 3d video im pondering if its you who dont notice 3d in movies

also your comment of keep seeing 3d with one eye closed, that doesnt work in a 3d movie you can test those samples

[Ailantd]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L
Where I'm baffled all in is when Raaiid describes not seeing the 3d effect in reality BUT SEEING IT IN A 3D MOVIE!
---------

The problem is that raaid think real 3D is like in the movies, not like in the reality when the wrong effect is in the movies, not in the reality.

[Ailantd]

If you think you don´t see 3D in reality raaaid, close one eye, keep that eye closed, then go to the kitchen, open the water, pick a glasss ( in that order ) and only moving the glass, try to fill it. You will realize how hard is it with only one eye. You can try a lot of normal task wich require depth perception with only one eye. You will be sure you see in 3D. And that is to see in 3D, not the wow effect of movies. Inside a cave with correct configuration you don´t have that wow effect from movies, but things are there in their own space and you can feel that as well as in reality.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Raaaid, I always thought 3d movies were a social event where everyone partakes in the coolness of wearing sunglasses in a darkened room!

Seriously, please try what Ailantd is suggesting. You will realise how wonderful your eyesight and brain really are.

[raaaid]

well ailan is right i can fill a glass of water better with two eyes than with one eye

but thats not cuase i see in stereo but because my eyes do triangulation with wich i know the distance

but this is not an stereo perception, an stereo perception is that that you have in a 3d movie, real life depth perception is based on triangulation as the wiki points

i think i know why i(we?) dont have stereo perception in real life but do in 3d movies

you point it out yourself:

for the projected image to be right YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CENTER OF IT, if you look to a corner of the image the projection now is wrong, even with the cave case(unless you track your eyes and correct the projection according where youre eyes are looking at which i doubt)

so in artificial 3d your simulating the paralax of your eyes fixed which you CANT do in real life(you always cross the rays of the eyes in the object youre looking at)

again i doubt you have real stereo perception in real life according my research

to have stereo percepetion you need an amazing concious control of the near triad as the mayas(eye lens, parallax, iris opening)

this guy has not an eye problem but is setting depth perception on maximum as to look at the stars:

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljsxrpHhIm1qgduswo1_400.png

of course i lack that level of stereopsis, i can very slightly cross my eyes, intensifying depth perception, before losing it and start seeing double

the main problem with this is breaking the near triad sync, its very difficult cross the eyes and not lose focus though i can do it each day better

edit:

theres a key point here which backs me up:

if in real life you close one eye you keep seeing the same, if in a 3d movie you close one eyes you lose depth perception TOTALLY

this is so self evident that negating the evidence makes you deluded, a majoritarial delusion, but still deluded nagating reality

edit:

this is how anglienls see( you have to look through it to see it)

http://www.smart-kit.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/stereogram%20bird.gif

thats why theyre invisible, yet you can see them with the corner of your eye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkyiqVnyCp4

also do you spot why this tank wouldnt be invisible if we had real 3d perception?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkkWya-oun0

the biggest advance in stereoscopy was in wwii where pictures from planes separated km away would be looked in stereo to detect camouflaged airports

how do you fight that invisible tank bs?

well im not designing weapons but its pretty easy to figure out, the same way you would to see an angel, look in stereo