Really?

[Stealthy]

Give these guys a break, they work HARD to make this sim as good as it is. I program a bit in C++ and Python and I know how hard it can be at times, and how time consuming it can be. They have put a incredible amount of detail into this sim.

[CaptainDoggles]

Honestly I think most people are more frustrated at the lack of communication between the development team and the paying customers than they are at the state of the sim.

I think we can all appreciate the financial situation at maddox games, but I think a lot of folks are puzzled at how they seemingly ignore or refuse to engage in dialogue with us, their sole source of income.

I for one was very pleased with the last update, and I hope that this is the beginning of a new trend.

[JG52Krupi]

I know for a fact that the moaning has caused some ppl not to bother purchasing the game which is a huge shame and quite pathetic that the supposed "fans" of the genre are currently the ones putting nails in the coffin :(

Like I said pathetic but then MG should have handled things differently.

[furbs]

Now now krupi, steady on.

The problem has been a broken release and bad reviews. things are improving now at last.

the blame lies with the developers and nobody else.

[JG52Krupi]

Now now krupi, steady on.

The problem has been a broken release and bad reviews. things are improving now at last.

the blame lies with the developers and nobody else.

I would agree if I still thought the game was still broken, don't get me wrong it's certainly not fixed and sure you do need a good pc to get it running maxed out but then this is a flight sim that's expected.

I'm not saying it's perfect or what MG did was correct I just hoped that some people would have a little more faith given that there is no one else producing a ww2 flight sim with so much depth.

And part of the problem is that MG have clearly bitten off more than they could achieve in the time frame given but it's all there and given time we will forget all about the launch and will be moaning abouts FM's and demanding they release the next episode :D

[CaptainDoggles]

I know for a fact that the moaning has caused some ppl not to bother purchasing the game which is a huge shame and quite pathetic that the supposed "fans" of the genre are currently the ones putting nails in the coffin :(

Like I said pathetic but then MG should have handled things differently.

The point I was trying to make was that MG could have avoided much whining by simply doing a better job communicating. CLOD is not as broken as some would have us believe.

I really hope sales pick up for them; I've been having really positive experiences with the sim lately. It's a real gem that just needs polish.

[JG52Krupi]

Yeah I agree Doggles, more communication please.

[Strike]

Honestly I think most people are more frustrated at the lack of communication between the development team and the paying customers than they are at the state of the sim.

I think we can all appreciate the financial situation at maddox games, but I think a lot of folks are puzzled at how they seemingly ignore or refuse to engage in dialogue with us, their sole source of income.


I don't know about you, but I paid them so they could WORK, not chat with us.

[Seeker]

Krupi, the time frame is now six and a half years and counting.

That's longer than it took to develop the B29, longer than it took to make the Manhattan project, and longer than it took to defeat both Hitler and Tojo.

Are we still impressed with the progress on this project?

Now, it may be, and it certainly seems so, that the new team have had to junk most of Oleg's work and start from scratch. If so, then yes, it would be an impressive feat to deliver anything like that which they promised.

But they won't tell us, so we don't know.

And, in the midst of "new graphics" (has any one ever said they were unhappy with Clod's graphics?), "new sounds" and "new physics", they still haven't mentioned "new game design aims", which is to me much more important - the game always ran fine on my rig apart from sounds.

The lack of dynamic content, and obscure and undocumented content creation system and the mind set that made the totally ridiculous shift-F1 Track ir limitations (I realy want to know if the guy responsible for that has been fired) are the killers for me.

Graphics and sounds are things I'd expect to get updated and changed anyway, as hardware changes over time.

I still see no evidence that they've actually learnt anything about game design or customer care through this debacle.

[ATAG_Snapper]

I don't know about you, but I paid them so they could WORK, not chat with us.

Great line! I gotta remember that one next time my boss asks me for a progress update. :D

[Strike]

Great line! I gotta remember that one next time my boss asks me for a progress update. :D

Yeah tell your boss you're not paying him to talk to you ;) that will turn some heads :)

[connie]

What angered me was that I was sold for full price a beautiful vase to find out I bought a vase that was boken and had not been glazed yet. Then I'm told not to complain as it will one day be beautiful and I am just a hater/whiner with an agenda, because they ran out of money. That is no excuse, they should have raised money from releasing a beta.

If this had been advertised as a beta release I would not complain. This release has been a disgrace and the potential greatness of the software does not excuse it. This game may well be great and I may enjoy it emensely but the release has been a disaster and a disappointment that has turned off many.

[Pudfark]

I am not "perfectly" satisfied with the recent/current update...
However, it did accomplish one thing?
It did help restore some order in the "house"...

Communication must continue...in an orderly fashion and it must
meet the customers expectations.

The "repair" of the sim?
Must meet those same expectations.

My expectations are reasonably met....for awhile.

What was stated by others...?
That more info from luthier would be met by more criticism?
Has not been proven to be true...

[Blackdog_kt]

With the size of their staff, 6.5 years is a decent accomplishment for creating a new engine. Look at Blizzard's track record for development, and their staff is 1000x larger. I doubt their games are as difficult to code as a flight sim, although their product was released in a much more polished state.

Excellent example. I own a copy of starcraft 2, it's polished to a ridiculous extent but then again, it's a multi-million dollar franchise with a humongous staff and much simpler requirements in terms of crunching the numbers required to deliver the kind of gameplay it needs to.

Well, SC2 came approximately 10 years after the first one. Assuming they didn't start working on it right away, i'd guess it was at least a 5 year process (they only ever talked about it and started providing development updates a couple of years before it was released too).

Remember, we're talking about a game with a vibrant pro-gamer community (started in Korea and expanded worldwide), with televised (3 tv stations in Korea) and online pay-per-view tournaments of professional leagues, tournaments sponsored by hardware manufacturing companies (from mice and headsets to CPUs and graphics cards), players who get paid almost as much as sports stars ($100K per year is not unheard of for a good professional player), bookmaking and even a betting scandal with set-up matches that resulted in courts getting involved.

In other words, a game with a ton of income and marketing surrounding it and it still took anywhere between 3 and 5 years to simply get it out the door, plus an extended open beta (3 months or so, maybe more) and multiple post-release patches to bring gameplay to a properly balanced level for competitive gameplay.

People have a right to be displeased about the initial state of affairs regarding CoD and the developers admitted so themselves very early on. What's tiresome is seeing that despite the commitment to and progress of fixing things (stated in words and tangible in the form of patches) which has taken the title to a 90% functional state if not more, there's a tendency often displayed in the forums to keep dwelling in the unpleasant past.

Yes, the release was less than stellar and that's putting it mildly. The current state of the sim is nowhere near the same state of affairs though, so why keep dredging up situations that have been rendered obsolete and are not applicable anymore? I mean, it sure is strange that in a group of hobbyists there seems to be a distinct and quantifiable portion of it that seem to be scared of the possibility of actually having fun, because something that happened during the first two months rubbed them the wrong way, no matter how justified the initial negative reaction was.

To put it otherwise, as long as the current ratio of fun vs frustration is a positive one and they keep working on it to improve it further, i really see no reason to think back to the release. Sure, i had 15 FPS over sea when i first installed it, but now i'm running 30-60 FPS (capped due to Vsync) over land on two year old hardware. I would have to purposefully try to make myself angry to keep thinking about the times of 15 FPS, which frankly is a waste of my time when i can enjoy the currently playable condition of the sim.

In other words, i would have to be holding a grudge and be determined not to have fun with it. It's like having a badly baked caked in front of me, i sent it back and they give me a perfectly edible one but i'm not eating it because i keep thinking of the first cake. Well, i only have myself to blame for not tasting some cake in that case :-P

[CaptainDoggles]

I don't know about you, but I paid them so they could WORK, not chat with us.

Part of "work" means keeping us informed. If you think development progress updates and community dialogue aren't a valuable part of the software development process then you are sadly out of touch.

[Strike]

Part of "work" means keeping us informed. If you think development progress updates and community dialogue aren't a valuable part of the software development process then you are sadly out of touch.

The clue here is. Luthier knows english. He isn't afraid to use it, and by simply not keeping an open dialogue he avoids being "dragged into" the mess we've made these forums. I believe the man chooses not to provide us an update until there is actually a small list of things to report. It's like people with their facebook status too.

Some people like to say they are going on a vacation, so first they pack everything, then they drive to the airport, then they are trying to find their flight, then they are waiting for their flight, then they are boarding, then they are "HELLO BOGNOR REGIS!" and meet their family etc etc. Personally, I can't stand that livefeed update stuff. It's better they say @Bognor Regis so people know they're home, we don't need the details of the entire journey :p

I'd rather have consistent updates, like Luther has said he will try to do :) But what's the point if he can only say, we're pretty much in the middle of progress on everything here. Our sound guy has encountered a problem and will need to redo parts of the engine all over again to get the desired results, etc etc. I don't want to know that. I know that developing is a LOT of trial and error and takes loads of attempts to perfect. So if the poor guy has to run through his entire staff, halt them and ask "Ok how you doing? Did you fix that yet?" it's gonna both delay and derail his staff. It's better to set a goal, work towards that and report later, when there's actually some work that's finished and worth showing off. Just look at the complaints on last update!

"But the cockpit colours are off...." "that doesn't look like metal..." etc etc. Even though he stated they weren't final people stated they were unsatisfied.

I think, if they are working on something, and it's not finished, and friday is there and everything's basically a wip, perhaps a lot of features are in the grayzone of being postponed or released, it's too early to say anything at all. I still hear people cry about that Su-26. If they learned anything, it was that promising all this stuff and not delivering is a mistake. So I don't want any update on how the update is going. Just give us a pure update.

All the errors, bugs, issues, wrong performances and wishlists are posted and here for them to find and read. I'm sure Luthier has ctrl+c'ed the long list published by insuber. I'm sure he has noticed the guy named Tree_UK on these forums.

Right now, I expect nothing until Friday next week after work. Then I have 50/50 hopes that he will say something about the patch, or nothing because it's not done yet.

At least by paying for the game, it has allowed to continuation of the project, as opposed to it being sent to the grave. That vase thingy is probably the queerest thing i've heard here btw. Who has fun with a vase? The sim is partially functional, it has it's basic mechanics working and will allow dogfights etc. and I agree it's more of a beta than anything else. But I'm happier playing it now, having supported the team in the process, than either A) Waiting for it to be released, or B) Hearing about the cancellation of the project due to lack of funds. Imagine waiting 6 years for nothing, rather than 6 years for something. Something that is being improved :) Most stuff you buy, like vases, or the more popular metaphor, "CARS" tend to wither and wear down over time. Software does not :) Given all the whine produced from these forums the sim should age in a cellar :P


/vent off

[CaptainDoggles]

Tragically misguided...

It's obvious you can't be made to see the light so I'll take my leave of this thread. Ta ta for now.

[von Pilsner]

What's tiresome is seeing that despite the commitment to and progress of fixing things (stated in words and tangible in the form of patches) which has taken the title to a 90% functional state if not more, there's a tendency often displayed in the forums to keep dwelling in the unpleasant past.

Sorry, but as a SP player this game does not feel 90% done, the AI and radio are the big killers (I'm sure you already knew this) so not all the bugs are in the past.

[Pudfark]

Geeez............
Luthier finally spoke up....
Almost all of the "whiners"...shut up...
Now, this?

How about just leaving things alone for a few weeks....
Give luthier a break...Give the mods a break...Give the community a break...

Why shouldn't we all?
Just give it a rest...for a couple of weeks...

I'm going to reload COD...give it another go...and wait for coming patch...

See y'all up there....

[connie]

That vase thingy is probably the queerest thing i've heard here btw. Who has fun with a vase?


/vent off

It was a metaphor about buying something broken and unfinished, that obviously went over your head.

[von Pilsner]

How about just leaving things alone for a few weeks....
Give luthier a break...Give the mods a break...Give the community a break...

We are just discussing the game, maybe you can take your complaining elsewhere as well...

[Strike]

Well spoken both Blackdog and good point cheesehawk ;) We have a saying in the military, it's called TTT, and translates to something like "Things Take Time"

[tk471138]

I don't know about you, but I paid them so they could WORK, not chat with us.
logical fallacy....

no one wants them to chat with us...but 5 minutes spent on an update once a week...i mean you think they are constantly working, from the min they get into the office to the min they leave...im sure just like any office they chat and eat and drink from time to time, their probably is some amount of downtime during the day, and while they are chatting or doing what ever with their coworkers they could bang out and update or communication..

you are a joke...stop trying to use misdirection cuz you have no other argument or point to make....

[Blackdog_kt]

Sorry, but as a SP player this game does not feel 90% done, the AI and radio are the big killers (I'm sure you already knew this) so not all the bugs are in the past.

I'm mostly an offliner too. People place different amounts of importance on each feature.

For example, for me the radio commands and the AI sure are important, but there's other stuff (a couple aircraft systems and a few CEM issues) that i rate higher on my "please fix" list.

Now, Luthier hasn't even talked about them but i'm not going to ask for it in every single thread: the issues i want fixed are already reported in Insuber's bug report thread and i'm sure as soon as they're done fixing what most of the people ask for, they'll move on to my less popular fixes too. ;-)

[von Pilsner]

Now, Luthier hasn't even talked about them but i'm not going to ask for it in every single thread: the issues i want fixed are already reported in Insuber's bug report thread and i'm sure as soon as they're done fixing what most of the people ask for, they'll move on to my less popular fixes too. ;-)

I only posted in this thread because the SP issues are not in the past as was indicated in the post I quoted originally. I was simply disagreeing with the 90% assessment (and giving a few reasons why I wouldn't call it 90%). :)

I fully expect them to fix everything eventually.

[Strike]

logical fallacy....

you are a joke...stop trying to use misdirection cuz you have no other argument or point to make....

I'm sorry I upset you, my sincere apologies.

But on topic, really guys. Is all you can do demand demand demand? Like Luthier already kindof said he was looking to hire a community manager. That is another paycheck most likely. Now think about it. Let's say an average pay is 15-20 euros/hour. Now that means 2-3 guys working 1 hour is 1 Retail copy of CloD worth of money. Now take 6 years, time it with let's say 45 weeks (7 weeks for holidays and other forms of leave) and time that with 5 days a week and 8 hours and then think a team of ca 20 people.

20x15Eurox8x5x45x6 yrs ;) with a little give or take that project in ONLY salary costs 3 240 000 Euros. You'd have to sell 64 800 copies of Clod (50E per copy) to match those 6 years of developement. And to top that, a huge piece of the cake per game sold goes to Ubi and 1C.

I know this is a very inaccurate calculation, but really the point is that in their current position I don't really think they can afford hiring a community manager. Or take too many breaks. Yes they all have breaks, but often they are unpaid and you spend them relaxing and gathering energy for the rest of the working day. Besides the point is, Luthier reads the forums more than he posts in it. A good thing if you ask me. Every time he posts a handful of users try to grab hold of him, ask him questions, ask why this and that hasn't been mentioned in the patch... etc etc. I assume it's because they havn't worked it out yet and it's not ready. Simple as that.

[tk471138]

I'm sorry I upset you, my sincere apologies.

But on topic, really guys. Is all you can do demand demand demand? Like Luthier already kindof said he was looking to hire a community manager. That is another paycheck most likely. Now think about it. Let's say an average pay is 15-20 euros/hour. Now that means 2-3 guys working 1 hour is 1 Retail copy of CloD worth of money. Now take 6 years, time it with let's say 45 weeks (7 weeks for holidays and other forms of leave) and time that with 5 days a week and 8 hours and then think a team of ca 20 people.

20x15Eurox8x5x45x6 yrs ;) with a little give or take that project in ONLY salary costs 3 240 000 Euros. You'd have to sell 64 800 copies of Clod (50E per copy) to match those 6 years of developement. And to top that, a huge piece of the cake per game sold goes to Ubi and 1C.

I know this is a very inaccurate calculation, but really the point is that in their current position I don't really think they can afford hiring a community manager. Or take too many breaks. Yes they all have breaks, but often they are unpaid and you spend them relaxing and gathering energy for the rest of the working day. Besides the point is, Luthier reads the forums more than he posts in it. A good thing if you ask me. Every time he posts a handful of users try to grab hold of him, ask him questions, ask why this and that hasn't been mentioned in the patch... etc etc. I assume it's because they havn't worked it out yet and it's not ready. Simple as that.



i guess as a paying customer we have no rights...


you still didnt post a good reason why they shoundnt at least give us a 5 min update once a week....and not even an update persay, but just a "hey we are here, we are making progress, have a good weekend"

but nope as the ones who effectively pay their salaries, we have no right to expect anything...let alone the product we paid for, in working order...you see most intelligent people want to impress and satisfy their customers...i guess this is a foreign concept for you...

you are nothing but a joke trying to give inadequacy reasons as to why we should not be given short updates from time to time...i guess cuz users might try and latch on to the dev, they shouldnt give updates when in reality they can simply give us a short update and leave it at that...just cuz users try to latch on to you and ask questions dosent mean one is compelled to do so...this should hardly be a reason as to why more frequent updates shouldnt happen

[connie]

i guess as a paying customer we have no rights...


You have rights but be advised, if you criticize the game the fanboys will attack you with logical fallicies and derision. Its a knee jerk reaction.:rolleyes:

[Strike]

.let alone the product we paid for, in working order...you see most intelligent people want to impress and satisfy their customers...i guess this is a foreign concept for you...


Before you go allmighty intellingent on this forum I would like to say IL-2 1946.

I'm so impressed I know what they're capable of, what their goal is and how nitpicky they are about getting things right... eventually.

Look, about captaindoggles post I misunderstood him because I had left the browser open for some hours and returned only to read a snippet of what he had written without seeing the whole picture (My bad). But seriously, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Your issue is with me, not the topic. Btw last update was on Saturday, a normal day off. It sends me signals that they are quite busy during working hours, trying to set things straight with the customers (since game is in a semi-complete state).

Anyways, this thread is only one in many that is an opposite reaction to all the complaints here. Every action has an opposite reaction isn't that what they say? So naturally someone has to post more reasons here to why we must continue to be disappointed at the devs, as if everyone is trying to win individuals over to their points of view. So this thread has had it's moment. I'm off

[Tree_UK]

I don't know about you, but I paid them so they could WORK, not chat with us.

Well personally I paid them for a finished game, I didn't see anywhere advertised the words 'Work In Progress' when they were punting the game to us. If MG Games had asked for me to invest in the project from day one I would of been happy to do so, but being sold a completely unfinished game however it came about to me is unacceptable, however what is done is done, but I would now expect the Dev's to be doing everything they can to keep me informed as to how they are going to right this wrong.

Promises of community managers that fail to materialise dont cut it either.

The news of the patch is encouraging yes, but its been a long time coming and still does little to appease me at this time for all the deliberate misinformation they fed us with during development. "They are working hard to fix the game", well they bloody well should be.