Thread about the 109

[Binnies]

Lately the 109 gun sight has been annoying me tremendously.
When you use the loosen traps function you zoom in on the gun sight and the crosshairs becomes smaller. Now I'm for more accurate when I do this but I'd rather avoid doing this because it reset the camera position and you lose a lot of situational awareness.

On the other hand we've got great situational awareness because of the increased FOV but the crosshairs are so damn big which makes it hard when trying to figure out when to fire.

Did the 109 sights really work like this?

[Blackdog_kt]

There's an adjustable brightness control under the gunsight, click on it with the mouse to manipulate it and it will make it easier to see the sight.

As for the rest, it takes a bit of time to get used to the new cockpits but after a while, i find it's much easier to shoot than it was with the previous IL2 series (more detailed graphics give me a better sense of speed, angles, closure rate and so on), to the point that i don't even center the view on the gunsight sometimes. I just roughly know where its center is by looking at the rest of it.

It's a matter of habit and some practice and will come naturally to you after clocking up a few sorties.

[Binnies]

Which one do you use the gauge the distance your target is at then? Normally I fire when the enemy aircrafs wings touch both side of the reticle(fighters only) which should but most aircraft at around 100 meters. But if the reticle is of then the distance could be very different from what is normally is.

I short, When targeting a fighter does it always fill the reticle at 100 meters?

And another question; What is vertical dog fighting?

[Blackdog_kt]

In regards to the gunsight, there's a unit of angle measurement called mil (just think of it as a very small sub-division of a degree) that is used to categorize them and it's all based on a very simple fact: the apparent size of a target is inversely proportional to it's range. In other words, if a plane with a wingspan of X meters appears to be Z mils, then the same plane at twice the distance (2X meters) will appear to be half the amount of mils (0.5Z mils).

The Revi gunsight used in the 109 is a 100 mils sight. That means that a target with a wingspan of 10 meters will have its wingtips "touching" the bars when it's 100 meters away from you (just like you said in your post).

According to Flea's checklists (see the sticky threads in the general section of the cliffs of Dover forum) the Spitfire and Hurricane have about 11-12 meters of wingspan, which puts them at around 110-120 meters when their wings fit between the horizontal gunsight bars.

For other distances you need to extrapolate. I think that each horizontal bar is the same length as the empty space between bars and also that the circle "cuts" each bar right in the middle. If this is true, then the following applies:

span fitting on top of one whole bar = span fitting between bars = a range of 110-120 meters

span fitting on top of half a bar = span being half the distance between bars = half the apparent size and thus double the distance (220-240 meters)

You will either need to judge this by eye, or kick a bit of rudder to momentarily skid your plane and align the gunsight bar with the target's wings to take a quick range reading.

For aircraft with different wingspans it needs further calculations, but in that case i just roughly approximate by assuming that a medium twin-engined bomber like the Blenheim should be about 1.5 times a fighter's size and a bigger one like the Wellington should be roughly twice the wingspan of a fighter.

For example, for a target 2x the wingspan of a fighter his apparent wingspan would be twice the space between bars when viewed from the "default" 110-120 meter range. Or inversely, the range would be twice the "default" range when he fills the space between bars ( = 220 to 240 meters).

If calculating this "on the fly" is driving you nuts, you might prefer to just memorize the list of ranges when "touching" the bars for known aircraft, or print it out on a small strip of paper and tape it to the side of your monitor/PC case/desk/etc.

Start by downloading Flea's excellent checklists from the sticky thread mentioned before. In there you'll find the range at which every allied aircraft in the sim fits between the Revi's bars.
From that point on you can extrapolate easily: if a certain aircraft type is at X meters when it touches the bars, then it's at 2x meters when it's half a bar long, 0.5X meters when it's twice the space between bars and so on.


It's pretty obvious that it's impossible to get a 100% accurate ranging in the heat of battle against a maneuvering target, except when attacking targets that pretty much fly straight and level (like bombers). In any case, fighters take less hits to go down so it pretty much evens out.

So, now that we know how to measure range to target, when do we shoot?
The answer is "at the range where the rounds of all your guns are harmonized to meet", in other words your convergence setting. I think the default one is 333 meters, however you can go into the loadout screen and modify this if you want to (loadouts are somewhat bugged, see the sticky FAQ thread in the general section for more details on how to successfully set them).

This means that you will either have to run some further calculations and get an approximate apparent size for most enemy aircraft at the range your guns converge at and fire when they are at that range, or inversely, you can set your convergence to a number that produces an easy to remember/calculate gunsight picture.
For the 100 mils Revi, that would mean mostly setting it in even, whole hundreds of meters (100,200,300) instead of in-between values (like 125,275 and so on).

In any case, you can start with an easy to use setting and as you gain experience you'll see it will be much easier to gauge distances without having to place the gunsight on the target but just by looking at the target, which means you can then start to use uneven numbers for convergence to suit your tactical needs better.

In other words, at some point you start developing a feel for all the parameters (relevant speed between you and the target, amount of deflection, the ballistic characteristics of your guns) and you can shoot and score hits from weird angles just by judging the amount of distance between the center of the gunsight in relation to these parameters.

For example, i use default convergence for the 109s cowl mounted machine guns so that they are accurate at long range. I use these to score some hits on enemy fighters and get them to turn and bleed off some speed, allowing me to close the distance quicker. I fire a few more bursts with the machine guns as i keep closing and sometimes this is all that's needed to cripple or shoot down the target.

If he survives i keep closing in on him and use my cannons, which i have harmonized to 100 meters for delivering the killing blows: their ballistics are not that good and their ammo supply is low, so it makes sense to use them at close range where it's more probable for the rounds to connect.

If i had them harmonized to the same distance as my machine guns and i was shooting from 100 meters away, my cannon rounds would be going both wide and high of the target (i would have to aim lower and at least one or both of each cannon rounds would still be passing harmlessly outside the target's wingspan), but setting them for close range gets rid of that problem.

[Binnies]

Thanks for the tips Blackdog.

Do you have any advice for fighting spitfire? A lot of times I tend to end up with them on my tail and me being unable to shake them.

[CH_RoadDogg]

Try shooting with no revi I was online last night and a wellingtons tail gunner hit and smashed my revi sight had to adjust aim just with the tracers after that talk about the detail that they modeled into these planes

[Blackdog_kt]

Thanks for the tips Blackdog.

Do you have any advice for fighting spitfire? A lot of times I tend to end up with them on my tail and me being unable to shake them.

This is a long discussion and mostly has to do with air combat tactics.

This is just some generalized advice, if your aircraft can fly slower than the opponent you should exploit that by turning in horizontal turns (just roll to the side and pull the stick back a bit).

However, if you have the faster aircraft (which is the 109), your turning circle will be wider: you can't turn fast enough and if you slow down to turn you give up your speed advantage.

In this case you need to use the so called "out of plane" maneuvers. This means turning with a bit of vertical maneuver.

The most basic one is to use a sequence of high and low yo-yo maneuvers, alternating between the two. Instead of turning with the target you roll to the side but not completely and pull up on the stick. This means you are climbing and turning at the same time: you will get slower and be able to turn better, but by climbing you gain potential energy. Then, you roll a bit more so that you are diving and turning when you pull the stick back, to convert your altitude back into speed, and level off with the target. This allows you to make a turn while keeping some energy reserve and it's called a high yo-yo.


The low yo-yo is the same but opposite: you start with a diving turn, then level out by rolling and pulling.
The high one is useful for staying behind a slower target without having to reduce your throttle settings, the low one is useful for "cutting ahead" of a faster target and closing to guns range.

All this is very generic and simplified mind you, there are tons of books on air combat tactics, i'm just giving you a small sample here :-P

My advice would be to do a search for a PDF book called "in pursuit", which deals with simulator flying and how to apply real world tactics to our game. It was very recently posted on this forum but i'm in a bit of a hurry and can't dig it up right now, look for a thread in the main page titled "a good read" or something like that and you'll find it.

[CaptainDoggles]

Thanks for the tips Blackdog.

Do you have any advice for fighting spitfire? A lot of times I tend to end up with them on my tail and me being unable to shake them.You should never try to twist and turn with RAF fighters if you are flying the Bf 109. Its strength lies in its powerful armament (cannons) and good climb rate.

If you climb at 250 km/h, 2400 RPM and full throttle you can outclimb any spitfire or hurricane that tries to follow you.

Come in above the fight and dive down onto your opponent, then zoom back up. Wait a little bit until you get into good position and then repeat. I wrote a longer post about this on the simhq forums in this thread:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3358318/Help_with_flying_the_109.html

[Binnies]

I actually did download in pursuit from this forum blackdog but I've yet to read it. I"ll be sure to read it soon. When doing high or low yoyos I should try and maintain speed right? Often when I do them my speeds seems to drop quite a bit (sometimes resulting in a stall even) because I tend to turn quite tight.

Thanks showing me your post on SimHQ Doggles. Very informative, but I do have some follow up questions.

Generally speaking what speed would be good for engaging other aircraft? Should you run when you get below a certain speed or something?

With the 109 you should avoid tight turns preferring wider turns right? So you keep your speed up.

[CaptainDoggles]

I actually did download in pursuit from this forum blackdog but I've yet to read it. I"ll be sure to read it soon. When doing high or low yoyos I should try and maintain speed right? Often when I do them my speeds seems to drop quite a bit (sometimes resulting in a stall even) because I tend to turn quite tight.A high yo-yo is used to prevent yourself from overshooting. If you're going to overshoot you need to slow down, but simply cutting throttle isn't good from an energy perspective, so what you do is nose up to trade in airspeed for altitude. This slows you down, but allows you to cash in your saved-up altitude for speed at a later point.

A low yo-yo is the opposite; you use it to increase closure on a target. So you dive to gain speed and then end up slowing down at a later point (but closer to your target).

So no, you should not expect to maintain speed in a high or low yo-yo maneuver. If you're stalling at the top of a high yo-yo you're probably either letting yourself get too slow (stop climbing a little sooner) or pulling too tight on the stick (think "graceful"). Possibly both.

Generally speaking what speed would be good for engaging other aircraft? Should you run when you get below a certain speed or something?When I'm over enemy territory looking for targets I tend to cruise in the 350-450 km/h range. It's about finding a balance. If you're too fast you'll overspeed if you try to dive on a bandit below you. If you're too slow you might get caught by a higher or co-altitude enemy that you didn't spot.

During combat I'm usually too preoccupied with keeping my eyes on the bandit to have more than a vague idea of how fast I'm going, really only looking at the airspeed indicator when I get slow, to make sure I'm at best climb speed or best turn speed.

Sadly there is no magic speed under which you should disengage and above which you are safe. Air combat is highly highly situational so there's no one-size-fits-all answer. Rather than disengaging when you get to a certain speed, think of it in terms of having or not having the advantage. Fight like a wuss: if you lose the advantage it's time to retreat. Only people eager to be shot down engage on even terms.

If you read that post of mine I linked to I talk a lot about doing sustained climbs; those are usually at 200-250 km/h IAS which is pretty slow. But when I'm performing those maneuvers and using that tactic my mental state is one of being on the attack, not on defense. I'm above my prey, patiently biding my time until conditions are right to strike.

With the 109 you should avoid tight turns preferring wider turns right? So you keep your speed up.Sometimes a tight turn is called for if it'll get you the firing opportunity or get you out of somebody's sights, but generally speaking yes you should prefer wide, fast turns because the more G's you pull the more induced drag you develop, and therefore the more energy you burn.

What you don't want to do is get into a flat turning contest with the RAF fighters. The Spitfire and Hurricane both turn very well in the horizontal plane, so why play the other guy's game? Make him play yours and fight in the vertical.

[CaptainDoggles]

Not sure I'd personally describe it as a chandelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandelle), which is supposed to be minimum-radius. The spiral climbs I was describing are very wide.

[NedLynch]

You can also order a print version of the book "In Pursuit", I did.
It covers all aspects of air combat, giving you a good perspective about what is important. Fancy tricks and maneuvers are pretty much the last items on the list of important things, energy states, situational awareness and your own state of mind are much larger contributers to being shot down or shooting someone down.
And know what you and your aircraft can do and what you cannot do and what the opponent can and cannot do, as stated above you need to make them play your game and never play theirs.
I like "fight like a wuss", my motto exactely ;-)

[CaptainDoggles]

You can also order a print version of the book "In Pursuit", I did.
It covers all aspects of air combat, giving you a good perspective about what is important. Fancy tricks and maneuvers are pretty much the last items on the list of important things, energy states, situational awareness and your own state of mind are much larger contributers to being shot down or shooting someone down.
And know what you and your aircraft can do and what you cannot do and what the opponent can and cannot do, as stated above you need to make them play your game and never play theirs.
I like "fight like a wuss", my motto exactely ;-)

There's something to be said for learning some of the maneuvers early. One of the first things I did when I got il2fb was learn to fly a flat scissors. That piece of advice I read on SimHQ ("If you see him moving out to your 3oc-9oc line, you're winning") still sticks in my head every time I fly it. It's of course important to learn when to fly it and when not to fly it, but ignoring the evasive maneuvers is a mistake IMHO.

I mean let's face it. Everybody gets bounced sometimes.

[NedLynch]

I didn't mean to say don't care for or practice maneuvers, of course you have to know them and be proficient in them. But ONLY knowing that will get you nowhere.
Understand all the other things I mentioned and at times what to do when will come to you even in a sort of improvisational way due to the fluidity and miriad of situations in combat.
Practice maneuvers and combined with your proficiency in SA, comparing and reading energy states and knowing your aircraft's and your own capabilities will give you a good idea what maneuver to employ in a given situation or a variation of that maneuver adapted to the situation (i.e. improvisation).
Flat scissors or scissors with a vertical element? Corkscrew, rope-a-dope, chandelle (I like that one, simple and effective to stash up some energy and put yourself maybe in a good attack/bounce position on an unweary enemy)?
Maybe sometimes it's just throwing some angles that will defeat the enemy.
Like the book says, the simpler and less energy consuming the better, unless of course you have someone right on your six, then the appropriate action is......to panic.:grin:

[MadBlaster]

I think this thread is about the cloddy 109 gunsight? I dislike it a lot, but will

try to be constructive since the only way I’ll ever fly CLoD again is if it gets

better than UP3. And the 109 gunsight is on the list of things that need

fixing imho.


Anyway, in old IL-2 109 “gunsight view” you have a nice round crosshairs in a

round circle. When you find yourself in a flat or rolling scissors, you can line

up your deflection distance for a snap shot very nicely. One radius, two

radius, whatever the case may be. We all learned deflection shooting in

IL-2 original? But in CLoD, try doing that in "straps off" view. It is an

exercise in frustration because you lose your peripheral vision on the bandit

and without lead time, you can’t pull lead distance for the snap shot! Also

it does this anthropromorphic time delay thing to simulate your head bending

down to look into the sight. It feels a bit like entering a tunnel (Luthier’s

favorite movie Vertigo comes to mind:)). So the question I have is, “why is

there a "straps off" view in the game if is so dysfunctional?” The answer I

suppose is to simulate real life tracking shots. But let's face the gaming

reality here. Everyone is using headtracking and most don’t want to be at a

disadvantage when they play online. So they blow off the "straps off" view

altogther because they don’t want to risk losing the SA in online gameplay.

Perfectly rational gaming behavior. So, as has been documented thouroughly

on this board, they either set up a custom profile/custom center in their

head tracking software to beat this “realism” piece of the game and center

up the recticle with the cockpit asymetric and unbalanced looking (my

personal solution) or they just try to get a feel for shooting in the default

view by relying on tracers, lots of practice moving their head in the right

spot and/or guesstimation. The evidence of this is in the 109 videos that

are posted on this board. I was lmao watching a Freycinet video of the

struggle he was going through for a very simple tracking shot on a bomber

six o clock. Laughing because I understand his frustration and noticed he

did not use “straps off” view. This is understandable to me though. Watch

his video “109 against the Wellingtons” on YouTube as he struggles zooming

in and out a bunch of times trying to get the recticle squared up in the

window at the expense of SA (@ 4:20 he says “come on smooth

movements!”) and then along comes a 109 friendly head-on and takes out

his right aileron! Anyway, that’s my take. This is a major bug in the 109.

The “straps off” doesn’t work for gameplay. It is being ignored for good

reason and I hope they get rid of it. We already know the old way works

fine and have years of proof and millions and millions of red Enemy Aircraft

Destroyed. Let's use that old way.

Freycinet’s video (“come on smooth movements”)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HJ5Z-TMABg&feature=player_profilepage

Edit: please don't take bogus cheapshot at old IL-2 and bring up the ki-43 because it is actually perfectly functional. At wide/default view, the gunsight tube is round and stationary with the crosshairs visible inside when the gunsight cap is off. So, you can still do snapshot and judge distance with the crosshairs. so now you learned something today.

[NedLynch]

The loosen strap view may need fixing, but as you mentioned people are finding ways to work around it.

Love the videos from Soren btw.

However the thread is named the 109 thread, so pretty much everything about the 109 should be permissable, not only the gunsight topic.

[CaptainDoggles]

I dunno guys, until about a week ago I didn't even know the seatbelts function existed.

I fly the 109 on full real with 6dof trackir and have no issues keeping the ring in view.

I was actually just asked about this via PM and I was saying that for me the trick is to unload when you fire. Point the nose where the target will be in a few seconds, center the stick, and then fire as he flies through your gunsight (snapshot). It's a different method than pulling lead on your target, using the elevators to keep it there, and firing (tracking shot).

It's much harder to keep the ring in view if you load factor isn't staying constant, so why put more work on yourself?

[MadBlaster]

Point the nose... where the target will be in a few seconds, center the stick, and then fire as he flies through your gunsight (snapshot). It's a different method than pulling lead on your target, using the elevators to keep it there, and firing (tracking shot).

Lol. Point the nose, what without the elevators? How many beers tonight guy?;)

To Luthier!!! I hope you read this thread so far. NO ONE here is using "loosen straps" view. So maybe consider making it a useful view and change it to old IL-2 "gunsight view"? Is it worth doing a poll guys or do you even care? Or is CLoD too far gone. Mabye it's just not going to happen?

[CaptainDoggles]

Re-read what I posted.

Point the nose where the target will be in a few seconds, center the stick, and then fire as he flies through your gunsight (snapshot).

You point the nose and then you unload the airframe for a snapshot. That is different from constantly pulling G's while you fire for a tracking shot.

[Blackdog_kt]

I think they should just change the view to do what it says: tighten straps for less head-shake during violent maneuvers at the expense of how far back you can look, loosen straps to look around at the expense of more bouncing during high-G maneuvers.


As for how to keep the gunsight in view, going back to the IL2 system is as much an artificial and "gamey" solution as the implementation we currently have and i wouldn't support it.

Better to give people a feature like RoF where they can save preset views for each aircraft so that people without head tracking can quickly lean into the gunsight (those who use head tracking already can solve this) and be done with it. It would also be useful for other things, like setting up a custom compass view for the RAF aircraft, or getting a look at hard to access gauges and controls in bombers without having to use the mouse or bend our necks around with head tracking.

[MadBlaster]

Re-read what I posted.



You point the nose and then you unload the airframe for a snapshot. That is different from constantly pulling G's while you fire for a tracking shot.


Bold letter now??? GunRunner would be disappointed.

You don't point the nose to where you think the target will be. You do point the crosshairs where you think the target will be and unload. It is a wing platform not a nose gun btw.

[CaptainDoggles]

Bold letter now??? GunRunner would be disappointed.

You don't point the nose to where you think the target will be. You do point the crosshairs where you think the target will be and unload. It is a wing platform not a nose gun btw.

Wow are you really going to argue those semantics with me? First of all the 109 has 2 nose guns, both of which are more than potent enough to kill enemy pilots and cripple airframes. Secondly the difference between where the nose is pointing and where the gunsight is pointing is negligible.

You've been nothing but antagonistic. What's your problem?

[MadBlaster]

Wow are you really going to argue those semantics with me? First of all the 109 has 2 nose guns, both of which are more than potent enough to kill enemy pilots and cripple airframes. Secondly the difference between where the nose is pointing and where the gunsight is pointing is negligible.

You've been nothing but antagonistic. What's your problem?

The 109 gunsight and the straps off view. That is the problem. Hey, it's great you found a method of success. You said you didn't even know about "straps off" view and then you gave us all a lesson on how to take a snapshot in default view. I didn't need the lesson, but thanks anyway. So, we can put you down as CLoD 109 gunsight is good to go. Enjoy the game.

[CaptainDoggles]

I will enjoy flying the game. You can enjoy flying the forums.

The intent was to show it can be done, and it's not that hard. The snapshot bit wasn't for you it was for newbies. You came into this thread with a half-page, poorly written whine because you like the way 1946 did it better, essentially asking the developers of a flight sim to purposely make something less realistic for everybody because Lord MadBlaster doesn't like it. Forgive me for sharing a method to success in hopes others might use it to get more enjoyment out of the game you insufferable sourpuss.

Go back to 1946, we've got enough whiners here.

[MadBlaster]

I will enjoy flying the game. You can enjoy flying the forums.

The intent was to show it can be done, and it's not that hard. The snapshot bit wasn't for you it was for newbies. You came into this thread with a half-page, poorly written whine because you like the way 1946 did it better, essentially asking the developers of a flight sim to purposely make something less realistic for everybody because Lord MadBlaster doesn't like it. Forgive me for sharing a method to success in hopes others might use it to get more enjoyment out of the game you insufferable sourpuss.

Go back to 1946, we've got enough whiners here.

Your a quite a piece of work. You freely admit you don't use the "straps off" view and didn't even know it existed. So your concern about less realism, not believable since your method blows it off entirely. If you re-read my poorly written whine more closely, you will note I made the point that users like you have found workarounds.

Pretend for a moment. You make a game. You put a functionality in it. You beta test it. You find out from the beta testers that they don't use the function. Logically, you fix it so that they want to use it. Or, you just put the game in the garbage can with your many cans of beer CD.

[Blackdog_kt]

Come on guys, lighten up :grin:

[NedLynch]

CaptainDoggles wrote it exactely as it should be in order to place a good shot on your target. Anyway trying to pull lead and firing while using the elevators is just going to make your bullets arc more behind the target (according to experience, the book "in pursuit" and the "Schiessfiebel" from 1944, the original is posted somewhere on the forum here as a pdf, quite fascinating for those who understand german, going to see if I can post a link maybe) making you pull even more lead.
And Blackdog, I think the "save custom view" option as we have it in RoF is the best way to go. Just give people the option to save 3 or so custom positions and this discussion should go away. Anyway I don't inderstand the big fuss about it, if you have a track ir or similar device you are pretty much in the same position as the pilots in WWII, they had to lean over just the same to aim through the crosshairs, no big deal at all if you have your profile set up to your needs or just use precision for a moment there.

[trumps]

i definately prefer the 109 sight to the RAF type, i also use TiR5 and after resetting my center point when jumping into the 109 have less problems keeping it centered than with the RAF jobbies which i find drift out of focus excessively during manuvering and require me to over extend my head position to get it centered again.
regarding the 109 in combat, i pretty much fly the E-1 exclussively these days
it is an absolute weapon, i love it. it is definately a zoom and boomer, and can spiral climb away from anything. the main thing to remember is to always leave yourself an escape route if you do somehow end up in a disadvantageous situation, the 109 will out accelerate and outdive all others, literally leave em standing, so unless i know my intended target is a sure kill i don't get involved in a fight below 2k. this way i have room to dive away if i'm in the poo.
the biggest problem i find is actually spotting aircraft below me at any sort of distance, makes it hard to use effectively at times.

Cheers
Craig

[Daniël]

The placing of the German gunsight is very smart. Your richt eye sees the sight and the left can see the environment. When your both eyes would see the sight the aiming could get more difficult. You can try this by holding two fingers at different distances from your face. If you concentrate on the closest one the furthest isn't clear. If you focus on the furthest the closest isnt clear. The closest finger is the sight, the furthest the plane.
Very simple, but so smart.

[trumps]

true the E-3 hits harder, but the E-1 has huge reserves of ammo, and can be aimed very precisely, it is not difficult to take out 5-6 bombers in a single sortie, you can accurately concentrate your fire on specific parts of the enemy without recoil affecting your aim. crew compartments, and engines are devestated quickly by the high rate of accurate fire. what many people forget is that it is not esential to literally blow the enemy apart or out of the sky, if you get them the pilot, or get the engines leaking oil/coolant to a reasonable degree then they probably wont make it home, gravity wins 9 times out of 10 ;)
you are correct the 109 is quick down low, but with the extra speed carried from the dive the Zoom back up to height and an advantageous position is quicker. all in all the 109 is a fantastic plane andto me the most fun and rewarding to fly and fight well with, definately a precision instrument!

Craig

[SNAFU]

The 109 has from what I experienced a better roll-rate at low speeds than Hurricane and Spits, which is an advantage in scissors. It is also nice to handle at low speeds. I don´t know about Spit or Hurricanes but from what I`ve seen they seem to have more difficulties in flying controlled slow.
I still have quite a way to go, but I just had a little airquakeing on the ATAG server and think it is the best way to get to know a plane, by not B&Z but just throwing yourself into the thick of the battle low and slow. ;)

If you have managed that, you can B&Z with the comfort of knowing, that you can also get along, if you have to help you mate, without the comfort of excess energy. :-P Sure it is the best tactic to stay fast and out of range, but if you really want to learn your plane, you should know how it handles at stall speed fights.

[Ze-Jamz]

i definately prefer the 109 sight to the RAF type, i also use TiR5 and after resetting my center point when jumping into the 109 have less problems keeping it centered than with the RAF jobbies which i find drift out of focus excessively during manuvering and require me to over extend my head position to get it centered again.
regarding the 109 in combat, i pretty much fly the E-1 exclussively these days
it is an absolute weapon, i love it. it is definately a zoom and boomer, and can spiral climb away from anything. the main thing to remember is to always leave yourself an escape route if you do somehow end up in a disadvantageous situation, the 109 will out accelerate and outdive all others, literally leave em standing, so unless i know my intended target is a sure kill i don't get involved in a fight below 2k. this way i have room to dive away if i'm in the poo.
the biggest problem i find is actually spotting aircraft below me at any sort of distance, makes it hard to use effectively at times.

Cheers
Craig

+1 on the spotting EA situation, can be very hard in this game

[Ze-Jamz]

The 109 has from what I experienced a better roll-rate at low speeds than Hurricane and Spits, which is an advantage in scissors. It is also nice to handle at low speeds. I don´t know about Spit or Hurricanes but from what I`ve seen they seem to have more difficulties in flying controlled slow.
I still have quite a way to go, but I just had a little airquakeing on the ATAG server and think it is the best way to get to know a plane, by not B&Z but just throwing yourself into the thick of the battle low and slow. ;)

If you have managed that, you can B&Z with the comfort of knowing, that you can also get along, if you have to help you mate, without the comfort of excess energy. :-P Sure it is the best tactic to stay fast and out of range, but if you really want to learn your plane, you should know how it handles at stall speed fights.

+1 to that too :)

[drewpee]

Sorry but low and slow in battle means DEATH.:(

[trumps]

for sure you need to be able to take it to it's limits when low and slow but it's not using the plane to its greatest advantage. it does have very good low speed controlability and can be held on the edge of a stall in a spiral climb much better than either the spit or the hurri, in this situation the hurri with its energy bleed doesn't stand a chance, and even the spit will soon drop a wing and be vunerable while recovering from a stall or spin. obviously these are just my own observations, and as always are subject to change with FM updates and patch releases. this is off topic but the thing that suprises me is all the people who won't fly without FFB sticks, the cues offered by the FM, sound and visuals are more than enough to let you know how hard the plane can be pushed without fighting a shaking stick and possibly over correcting, i think that a quality, well setup stick has as much to do with how hard and effectively the planes can be flown as anything.

Craig

[drewpee]

Being able to fight low and slow is alright for one on one but if your opponent had a wing man your toast. Now days I find keeping alive is a more realistic way of flying. To have no fear of dieing is the biggest immersion killer. My kill death ratio in my case is getting better all the time only because of the fear of virtual death. It's made me a better pilot.:)

[trumps]

Being able to fight low and slow is alright for one on one but if your opponent had a wing man your toast. Now days I find keeping alive is a more realistic way of flying. To have no fear of dieing is the biggest immersion killer. My kill death ratio in my case is getting better all the time only because of the fear of virtual death. It's made me a better pilot.:)

i agree mate, for the first time in a sim i am flying using tactics and the principals of the great german aces of the time and they work! it in no way takes any of the fun out of the fight, i actually enjoy it a lot more plus my K/D
ratio has totally gone through the roof! in previous sims i have pretty much always allowed myself to get suckered into furballing while in the wrong plane,
now i make a concious decision of how and when to attack, i don't know if it is
just me or if it is due to the game it's self that has made it so much more enjoyable but i'm lovin it ;)

Craig

[SNAFU]

As I said, if you are looking for your stats (whatever they are worth for?) always stay high and fast, but the question was in the beginning, how to learn the plane, if I remember that correctly (but I might be wrong though).

That`s what I was trying to explain. The fastest way to learn the 109 is to fly it in the most extreme situations, and if you always make one high speed pass and repeat or run you do not learn the 109, you just learn deflection shooting. :grin:

So far CoD is all a state of testing. The most players are just flying around waiting for the opposing bombers to get in their way and have a little shooting practice on AI bomber, which do not have any other meaning but being shot down by players, at least you rarely see any objective in online missions for players. It is also hard to implement any mission goals in online missions, f.e. ships are not counted as ground units and there is no direct way to set a trigger for them being destroyed as a group. Futhermore the FM is restricted to medium-alt flying having a ceiling at 7800m (at least I couldn´t get the 109 higher than that). The ones flying with the highest graphic settings have huge disatvanteges, compared to the majority flying without trees, lower resolution, switched off shadows, etc. So it is hard to feel the immersion of the Battle of Britain online on the PvP Servers imo.

Me for example only fly on the PvP Servers for testing and the fast fun in between, but for the immersion I fly missions I made myself and which (I think) do reflect the essence of the Battle of Britain with the best compromise between playability and the history I know. ;)

But I am geting OT... :rolleyes:

[drewpee]

Historically the 109 is a energy fighter, if you fly another way and have success,well good for you. I must say though once you learn to retain energy it's the best way to fly it for most pilots. There is no need to as you say run away once the 109 has been mastered, although there in nothing wrong in knowing to cut and run. A fight often deteriorates into a low and slow fight and then yes knowing your aircraft stalling characteristics will help to keep you alive. But usually a low and slow fight tends to end in someone stalling and dieing.

[SNAFU]

Exactly and if you only know your plane at corner speed or above, the chances are high that you are the one stalling.;-)

[trumps]

actually we are all off topic, the original question was in reference to using the 109 sight, and the FOV ;)
we do all get a bit carried away at times LOL! the only important thing is that everyone gets enjoyment out of the game no matter how or what they fly. if they want to mix it up down low cool, if they want to zoom and boom fantastic, if they want to try and prove that the He111 should have been used as a fighter brilliant! as long as we are all having fun. back to the original question, i don't use the zoomed FOV at all, but center the reticule of the sight with TIr, it works very well and unless i jump into another aircraft type dont have to worry about it again!

Craig

[Ze-Jamz]

Dont and have never seen the sight as a problem.. but then Im using Tir5 and can center it as said above

[finchOU]

New to CloD...but used to play Forgotten Battles a bunch. I'm trying full up all everything realism and I'm starting in the 109...as its my Fav. My question is with Engine management. The Manual does a shitty job of being consistant on how to max perform the A/C in CloD...and the info on the 109 is no exception. My question are.....what are the settings for Mag Pressure and Prop for Best Rate of Climb (at what airspeed)...what about max range or endurance? And Finally what works best in Combat for Prop setting...right now I use 11:00 on the prop (as it seems to not overspeed my RPMs) and yeilds decent engine performance. But whats best? (i'm in earlier models of the 109).

What's Boom and Zoom? I assume it's hit and run tactics exploiting the Vertical? Obviously only works with a neutral (better climb ratio then spit or hurri) or energy advantage. Is this right?

Any Yo Yo is actually "In Plane". Only if you use your excess speed (or lack of) to cut across the circle pure nose high (or bullseye nose low if slow) then you redefine "out of plane". If you're out of plane ...you are not in a yo yo...but redefining the fight in the vertical (if the adversary remains turning on the horizon) to gain an angular advantange. Yo Yo is still Two circle flow.