Of all the 'niggling' damge model issues, this one is my greatest irritation :(

[Mysticpuma]

No, I'm not talking about anything to do with terrain, tracers, graphic bugs...nothing like that at-all. Those will be bugs, this is an actual designed for the game Graphic Issue.

Now take a look at the images in this thread (first post) and look at the wing damage. Not the actual puncture marks, but the snap points.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25009

Every one is the same, a complete straight line break. No tearing damage, no cable or struts sticking out, a pefectly straight 'snap' line (except a very rare piece of straight stick i.e, 109 shown in one picture)?

Now, I understand from a very old conversation that Oleg said that having many break points was impossible, but why does it mean that when a wing breaks, fuselage snaps, tail goes, that the line is a perfect straight?

Why can't the visual damage actually appear as damage rather than a perfect precision knife slicing off of the wing?

I have attached two pictures from Wings of Prey (wait...BEFORE YOU GROAN) as an example of what I would hope this far superior simulation (to quote many but not me) should at least be able to vsiually represent of a wing break?

The damge shown is imperfect, a structural failure that gives the impression that a wing was torn away?

Why in CloD does this not happen and looking at the wing which has snapped, eveyrthing is perfectly cut?

Surely it can't be too difficult to move on from the original IL2 in which this also happened and now we have a far superior Graphics engine, and although I understand 'snap' points have to be limited, why can they not at least represent catastophic damage?

So take a look at the thread I mentioned above and then look at the two pictures from Wings of Prey, which do you think shows a very damaged aircraft.

Yes I am sure I'll get the "ohhhh but WoP is a damaged game, blah, blah", well very funny, but this is a serious point about the actual appearance of a structural failure, so why can't CloD do this?

As-well as the two images of WoP I have added an example of the 'straight-line snap' effect, seen in most wing/fuselage/tail 'snaps' in CloD.

Am I asking too much for a step forward from IL2:1946 in this graphical representation and if so, why?

Cheers, MP

[Troll2k]

Without the straight cut you could not have the Hurripedo.

[Mysticpuma]

But you could have the Tearipedo!

and now back on topic ;)

[David Hayward]

Because the game is not done yet. That seems pretty obvious.

[furbs]

Agree Puma, whats makes it worse is apart from the straight cut wing, the visual damage model is one of CODs strong points.

Lets just add it to the list of "improvements"

[danjama]

Very good point. Those WoP screenshots make me glad I did not splash out on a new computer for CloD (yet).

However, we shouldn't spoil the original sentiment of the referred to post. Sometimes, the fun is genuine, and you don't notice things like this when in the thick of it.

[6S.Tamat]

it depends simply on the damage lod modelled and moreover on the "caps".
If they didn't change the way of modelling an airplane (and moreover from how it is broken seems really not) it is simply more modelling work to do.

Perhaps i'm bothering or irritating someone of the total supporters with the next phrase, but that is simply why I was gone mad when I saw the Cremlin...: there is still alot of work to do on that sim, and they already project and make the next one. It is like working on the roof when the basement is not totally stable.

[BP_Tailspin]

Get a rope ... there's going to be a hanging.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Every one is the same, a complete straight line break. No tearing damage, no cable or struts sticking out, a pefectly straight 'snap' line (except a very rare piece of straight stick i.e, 109 shown in one picture)?
The damge shown is imperfect, a structural failure that gives the impression that a wing was torn away?

Why in CloD does this not happen and looking at the wing which has snapped, eveyrthing is perfectly cut?

Cheers, MP

For the Spitfire at least the straight lines correspond to the cutout for the aileron and at the end the attachment point for the wing tip. The major section accross the wing looks torn to me, though it may look better trailing so wires or cables.

The Stuka has lost it's elevator and the Horizontal stablizer would only need twisted hinges to look ok for that sort of damage. Once again the wing damage looks like the straight line match up with pannel lines.

As for the Hurricane the wing seems to be lost along an attachment point, though in a perfect world there should be some deformation where the wing was ripped from the plane. Not bad modeling of stuctures if you ask me!

http://www.simplyplanes.co.uk/images/pages_images/world_war_2_aircraft/hurricane/hurricane_restorations/little_gransden_hurricane/little_gransden_restoration_8_larger.jpg


Cheers!

[Jatta Raso]

DON'T. MENTION. WINGS. OF. PREY. IN. HERE.

(sarcasm)

the chap's got a point, it shouldn't happen (almost) always like that. it doesn't mean a whining, means that ppl is aware *escapes linch mob*

[retrojet]

Everyone agrees, yes?
:mrgreen:

[Blackdog_kt]

On topic: I guess it could be done, it's just a matter of having the visual DM be a bit less corresponding to the actually calculated DM in cases of breaking wings or other catastrophic failures.

I don't know if this could create other problems like it happens in other sims (eg, aircraft seen flying with no wings because the visual DM is "ahead" of the actual one in terms of damage received) or not, but i think that as far as effects alone are concerned it might just be a case of slightly modifying the 3D models.


In general now, let me just pop in here for a preemptive fire extinguisher statement:

The original post is a very well worded post on how to pass some useful criticism.

Let's not have supporters of CoD or detractors of WoP attacking the thread starter when he has taken care to word his post in such a polite manner.
Let's also not have critics of CoD taking his carefully and usefully worded message and turning it into a flaming wreck by injecting thinly veiled jabs at everything CoD.

In short, let's not have the two usual suspect groups going against each other once more and pulling a perfectly valid thread off topic.

Because if we do, i'm finally going to open that quarantine thread and move all offending posts there. This one will remain civil one way or the other.

Not a threat, just a friendly reminder and heads-up ;-)

[GOA_Potenz]

Why there's always someone that have to justify the devs mistakes???

[Heliocon]

No, I'm not talking about anything to do with terrain, tracers, graphic bugs...nothing like that at-all. Those will be bugs, this is an actual designed for the game Graphic Issue.

Now take a look at the images in this thread (first post) and look at the wing damage. Not the actual puncture marks, but the snap points.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25009

Every one is the same, a complete straight line break. No tearing damage, no cable or struts sticking out, a pefectly straight 'snap' line (except a very rare piece of straight stick i.e, 109 shown in one picture)?

Now, I understand from a very old conversation that Oleg said that having many break points was impossible, but why does it mean that when a wing breaks, fuselage snaps, tail goes, that the line is a perfect straight?

Why can't the visual damage actually appear as damage rather than a perfect precision knife slicing off of the wing?

I have attached two pictures from Wings of Prey (wait...BEFORE YOU GROAN) as an example of what I would hope this far superior simulation (to quote many but not me) should at least be able to vsiually represent of a wing break?

The damge shown is imperfect, a structural failure that gives the impression that a wing was torn away?

Why in CloD does this not happen and looking at the wing which has snapped, eveyrthing is perfectly cut?

Surely it can't be too difficult to move on from the original IL2 in which this also happened and now we have a far superior Graphics engine, and although I understand 'snap' points have to be limited, why can they not at least represent catastophic damage?

So take a look at the thread I mentioned above and then look at the two pictures from Wings of Prey, which do you think shows a very damaged aircraft.

Yes I am sure I'll get the "ohhhh but WoP is a damaged game, blah, blah", well very funny, but this is a serious point about the actual appearance of a structural failure, so why can't CloD do this?

As-well as the two images of WoP I have added an example of the 'straight-line snap' effect, seen in most wing/fuselage/tail 'snaps' in CloD.

Am I asking too much for a step forward from IL2:1946 in this graphical representation and if so, why?

Cheers, MP

There is not reason I can think of at all for this, breaking points are a programming area so while again I dont see why they couldn't do that, I wont say that they can. On the other hand the way they have done the wing breakaway is just lazy/time saving modeling. The animation for the break probably corresponds with a (brain dead, forgot the name for the formal name of the geometry/line here) set of vertexes that are disengaged from the wing when it comes off. At this specific part of the win there is like an aditional face that is normally inside the wing (pre-breakoff) which has the strut texture you see applied to its outside face. Basically why model realistic looking damage when you can just add an additional stock face!....

Nothing about this game surprises me anymore...

[Slatz]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S8VujmAm7Yo/TjTHTEpqvwI/AAAAAAAAAM4/dQkr2UehTiA/s912/shot_20110615_215155.jpg

Like this.

[Heliocon]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S8VujmAm7Yo/TjTHTEpqvwI/AAAAAAAAAM4/dQkr2UehTiA/s912/shot_20110615_215155.jpg

Like this.

If thats not a mod - must be connected to a setting in the game i guess?

[Tiger27]

I'm sure I've had wings torn jaggedly off in CoD, I'm not sure that the way it's done in WOP is that good either they look like the wings are made of paper torn diagonally I would think the wing would tend to come off where a spar joins, but I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't seeing all the DM possibilities yet.

[Slatz]

no I have no mods on my game but it is before the last patch.as is this one,and I do believe this one was before any patches.Both are do to collision and not gun fire.https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u2XaGwJTJcM/TjTJ-eMuiDI/AAAAAAAAANo/1hVF0bfseS4/s912/Launcher%2525202011-04-03%25252021-36-39-27.jpg

[Slatz]

Found another one.this was just the other day in multiplayer.A collision as well.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-shImfwAq-rw/TjTLXX4U_EI/AAAAAAAAAOA/jkOCcozdBPU/s912/2011-07-19_00007.jpg

[retrojet]

Well if that screenie is cod, then my point will be mute...
What I was going to say is, that every DM feature must be quite a resource hit, so drawing a straight line may be an unfortunate compromise...
And a repeated jagged tear the same...

But however it is handled, somebody will perceive it as unrealistic and then we're back to square uno...

Before you ask... no, I don't have the foggiest idea how to code!
:-D

[JG5_emil]

I dont like to see that either as it looks a bit IL2 but the ops post is linked to images showing a cannon mod? Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the mod with the xtra destructive force of those cannon shells might have somthing to do with it?

[Blackdog_kt]

Well, thanks for the screenshots Slatz. It seems to clear up the issue pretty convincingly.

[White Owl]

I posted this video once before, but I think it's relevant to this discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25xl0kZq0Do

There are two collisions in this video. The first is a midair between a Bf-110 and a Spitfire, in which the Bf-110's wing is cleanly severed, while the Spitfire very unrealistically takes only light damage. The second collision is when that Spitfire bellies into the ground, and the right wing is removed along a very jagged looking break.

I'm thinking the code for severing wings in flight must differ from the code for losing wings to collision with the ground and/or static objects.

[furbs]

Which ever way a wing is "torn" off it should not leave a cut like a laser has done it, i agree we might get the rip along weak point(so maybe its more of a snap?) but we should still see ripped and torn fabric and bent ends of struts.

It does smack of lack of "polish".

[yellonet]

It would be nice to have a more believable graphical presentation, it is probably quite fixable, but perhaps not very high on the priority list.

This was the result of a mid-air collision just now. It works sometimes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yellonet/collision.jpg

[JG52Uther]

All the torn wing pics seem to come from collisions!
Perhaps wings ripped off by gunfire are somehow handled differently?

[yellonet]

All the torn wing pics seem to come from collisions!
Perhaps wings ripped off by gunfire are somehow handled differently?

I'm not sure, you can at least get both straight and torn cuts from collisions.

[KG26_Alpha]

No, I'm not talking about anything to do with terrain, tracers, graphic bugs...nothing like that at-all. Those will be bugs, this is an actual designed for the game Graphic Issue.

Now take a look at the images in this thread (first post) and look at the wing damage. Not the actual puncture marks, but the snap points.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25009

Every one is the same, a complete straight line break. No tearing damage, no cable or struts sticking out, a pefectly straight 'snap' line (except a very rare piece of straight stick i.e, 109 shown in one picture)?

Now, I understand from a very old conversation that Oleg said that having many break points was impossible, but why does it mean that when a wing breaks, fuselage snaps, tail goes, that the line is a perfect straight?

Why can't the visual damage actually appear as damage rather than a perfect precision knife slicing off of the wing?

I have attached two pictures from Wings of Prey (wait...BEFORE YOU GROAN) as an example of what I would hope this far superior simulation (to quote many but not me) should at least be able to vsiually represent of a wing break?

The damge shown is imperfect, a structural failure that gives the impression that a wing was torn away?

Why in CloD does this not happen and looking at the wing which has snapped, eveyrthing is perfectly cut?

Surely it can't be too difficult to move on from the original IL2 in which this also happened and now we have a far superior Graphics engine, and although I understand 'snap' points have to be limited, why can they not at least represent catastophic damage?

So take a look at the thread I mentioned above and then look at the two pictures from Wings of Prey, which do you think shows a very damaged aircraft.

Yes I am sure I'll get the "ohhhh but WoP is a damaged game, blah, blah", well very funny, but this is a serious point about the actual appearance of a structural failure, so why can't CloD do this?

As-well as the two images of WoP I have added an example of the 'straight-line snap' effect, seen in most wing/fuselage/tail 'snaps' in CloD.

Am I asking too much for a step forward from IL2:1946 in this graphical representation and if so, why?

Cheers, MP


I have seen many damage types in CoD

Jagged wing rips
snapped wings
fuselage ripped
engine parts falling off
canopies bent up
Punctures
bent landing gear
surface control damages
panels blown off

The damage is random and my settings are on full across the board.

What settings are you using ?

Or are these screen shots purely from other CoD owners ?

What's your experience of the damage in CoD ?

Starting a thread the way you have without actually any screen shots from your game
seems strange as you like to use lots of graphical images for your own editing that you present none of your own.


Settings might be an issue in this case but simply presenting look at these bugs without testing anything from your game could be considered trolling whining.

So lets gather some actual scenario, screen shots and settings from those seeing "everytime cut wings" scenarios to actually make sense of calling a couple of screen shots not taken by yourself a serious bug.



.

[furbs]

Alpha, ive seen the clean wing breaks as well as puma, ive also seen all the stuff you just posted.

maybe the clean breaks just need removing?

[Tree_UK]

I have yet to see a jagged break, only clean breaks.

[JG52Krupi]

Sorry but this thread is full of fail and a load of BS to boot.

What Skoshi Tiger said is perfectly valid and lets be honest here the only aircraft that has a straight break is the hurri and if you have eyes you can clearly see that the aircraft has a weak point where the wing connects to the root joint but yes I would have liked to see some more visal damage in that break (See below).

http://s2.postimage.org/h6m6ovi9c/shot_20110730_153155.png (http://postimage.org/image/306ftn71g/full/)
post image wordpress (http://www.postimage.org/)

AND regarding the straight breaks in general well just take a quick look at the structure of an aircraft wing and you would understand why a wing would basically have a straight break.. the clues are in the ribs...:rolleyes: some of you guys clearly don't have a clue.

http://s2.postimage.org/6jrn2uq8m/shot_20110730_152831.png (http://postimage.org/image/305pd1n50/full/)
upload gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

See the break is running along the rib...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ec4tz1awEQ&feature=related

See look at the video REAL LIFE tell me how that is modelled wrongly FFS.... :confused:

STAY TUNED AS I GATHER MORE EVIDENCE TO PROVE WHY AN AICRAFT WING WOULD BE EXPECTED TO BREAK PARALLEL TO A SODDING RIB.... WTF!!!

And before someone inquires about the spit wing aircraft had different internal structures, if i recall correctly the wing skin has more load running through it and so thats why a parallel break is not modeled.

[JG52Uther]

I think whats being said Krupi is that the wing should be torn off, not snapped off cleanly like a kitkat.
Go back to bed Mr Grumpy ;)

[JG52Krupi]

I think whats being said Krupi is that the wing should be torn off, not snapped off cleanly like a kitkat.
Go back to bed Mr Grumpy ;)

I agree I said it should not be a clean break but the weak point would always be running along a rib hence its going to snap along that line.

Check out every video of 190 being shot down by an RAF cannon its to me it look like a pretty straight snap, then compare the area in the vid to a picture of an 190s wing internal structure.

Tbh Uther a kitkat is a perfect example of a weak point between two ribs... :D

[furbs]

Krupi, i think were saying its fine for the hurri to break along the weak spot like you said.

the problem is there is no visual damage of the break. it looks like the wing has been laser cut.

i would guess any wing breaks from are from cannons breaking the spars, then the wing fails along the ribs as you say, but im sure there would be damage along the break.

Or the shells blew up the fuel tank, and then the wing....i dont think i have to say any more mate.

The wing break as in your pic looks unnatural and too clean, thats what we are saying.

[JG52Krupi]

Krupi, i think were saying its fine for the hurri to break along the weak spot like you said.

the problem is there is no visual damage of the break. it looks like the wing has been laser cut.

i would guess any wing breaks from are from cannons breaking the spars, then the wing fails along the ribs as you say, but im sure there would be damage along the break.

Or the shells blew up the fuel tank, and then the wing....i dont think i have to say any more mate.

The wing break as in your pic looks unnatural and too clean, thats what we are saying.


Okay maybe a bit more spar jutting out perhaps a bit more of the cover protruding from the snap line... but just check out the video of the 190s with the wing blown off...

But the internals of each aircraft are different see this pic

http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/1/0/5/0/93013_1135751050.jpg

The damage modeled in COD is exactly where you would expect to see a break, the spar is screwed onto the wing joint its just gonna be ripped off similar to the image in COD... just a little more work required.

[Ataros]

Some people play too much WOP which does not model internal structure of aircraft correctly.

There is necessary visual detail where material is actually torn apart.
Deformation from a collision is different than deformation from structure overload in result of gunfire (different vector of forces applied).

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iHO2TxQIdfM/TeTTfeUwUOI/AAAAAAAABPg/CmnsZYUuPOY/s1280/shot_20110410_230401.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2jJKCz0HRIU/TeTTsTRJ3HI/AAAAAAAABQo/wz4eDaQICQs/s1280/shot_20110424_225102.jpg

[JG52Krupi]

http://www.griffintrust.org.uk/history/hurri13.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1161223/Only-surviving-WWII-Hurricane-crash-lands--weeks-1-5million-half-year-restoration-completed.html

Just to add some more info on this particular hurri break.


http://s2.postimage.org/h6m6ovi9c/shot_20110730_153155.png (http://postimage.org/image/306ftn71g/full/)
post image wordpress (http://www.postimage.org/)

The outer wing seems to be held in place by four bolts only, when they shear this is what you would see so it is modeled correctly.

[kyletiernan]

to be honest i enjoy playing Wings of Prey much more than Cliffs of Dover just because its such a polished game and everything works as it should. I would still play Il2 1946 modded than Cliffs of Dover in its current state.

[furbs]

Yes Krupi, your COD pic looks just like the real pic where the wing has been "removed" prob with spanners and stuff, and not ripped off by cannon fire from a 109 at 250MPH :)

edit. look at your sig. and come on TS you spoon.

[JG52Krupi]

Yes Krupi, your COD pic looks just like the real pic where the wing has been "removed" prob with spanners and stuff, and not ripped off by cannon fire from a 109 at 250MPH :)

edit. look at your sig. and come on TS you spoon.

That's a 109 ;) not a hurri completely different structure.

Just watching the F1 I will be on there soon.

[Mysticpuma]

Krupi, i think were saying its fine for the hurri to break along the weak spot like you said.

the problem is there is no visual damage of the break. it looks like the wing has been laser cut.

i would guess any wing breaks from are from cannons breaking the spars, then the wing fails along the ribs as you say, but im sure there would be damage along the break.

Or the shells blew up the fuel tank, and then the wing....i dont think i have to say any more mate.

The wing break as in your pic looks unnatural and too clean, thats what we are saying.

Thanks furbs, at-least you understand what I am pointing out as do many others.

The break along the point of structural failure, and as has been pointed out, a bolted point too, would surely not just loo like it had cleaved apart with a laser?

I am not expecting entrails to be spewing forth from the aircraft, but I would assume a little inconsistancy in the area of failure rather than a nice smooth edge?

The pictures showing collision damage seem to be promising, but I wonder why that type of damage effect couldn't be added to wing tear or shot-off wings, so it looks less clinical.

I am not an expert and watching that gun-camera clip in the previous postings, only showed one example of a wing being lost, but even then it was catastrophic and to think it would be a perfectly clean edge would be very far-fetched?

So back to the original point, why can't Clod be tweaked to show the collision damage model on wing breaks from aerial attacks just to make it appear that it is a damage model that has progressed from the original 1946 software?

Also look at the two images attached. The Hurricane has lost the end of a wing and it is nowhere near as clean an edge as shown in Clod.

Second the Spitfire damage shows twisted metal in the fuselage. Now if that was in the air, the twisted metal would be dangling behind the fuselage as the tail fell away, neither would have a clinically clean edge?

Cheers, MP.

PS. There is no-need to get irate in your replies, it's a respectful post with examples of another simulation that shows imperfect damage effects and I wonder why CloD just doesn't implement the same visual damage as it has a far superior graphics and damage model?

[JG52Krupi]

The break along the point of structural failure, and as has been pointed out, a bolted point too, would surely not just loo like it had cleaved apart with a laser?

I am not expecting entrails to be spewing forth from the aircraft, but I would assume a little inconsistancy in the area of failure rather than a nice smooth edge?

There is only one scene that I can see that has a smooth edge... please give me images of the other scenarios please

And that one scene as the images I and Skoshi have posted should tell you that the assembly process would lead to a break that does not do much damage.

The hurri has a much stronger inner wing due to the landing gear connecting there, the outer wing is bolted on afterwards if sufficient force hits the wing around this point clearly there is going to be a failure (Im no stress engineer and don't know enough about the hurri to determine what would break first) the bolts do seem like a weak point...

What would you expect to see?

[JG52Krupi]

Here is an image from a 787 wing that was tested to destruction.. as expected there is a clean straight break running along one of the ribs...

http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2008/11/post_2.html

[Jumo211]

Smooth wing edge or not argument , this video always brings chill down my spine when
watching , can't imagine to be up in the air when hit by this thing , ripping ,
shredding aluminium effect is devastating :-(
Poor Spitfire :-x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk

[Mysticpuma]

Here is an image from a 787 wing that was tested to destruction.. as expected there is a clean straight break running along one of the ribs...

http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2008/11/post_2.html

But it's not clean...it's got a really rough mangled edge? That's what I mean. I am not complaining about a break point being where the wing snaps, but the actually 'mess' at that point.

Currently everything looks like it was cut away with a laser and their is no 'rough' debris messy edge, even from the fabric. Everything is nice, neat and tidy.

I am trying to point out that the wing should break, but it would not be 'clean' it would have maybe control cables (if it's near the fuselage), fabric, twisted metal where the wing was yanked away.

Hope that explains the visual damage I want to see? The break is fine, just not how clean the edge is?

Cheers, MP (see attached pictures to my post above).

[Mysticpuma]

Smooth wing edge or not this video always brings chill down my spine when
watching , can't imagine to be up in the air when hit by this thing , ripping ,
shredding aluminium effect is devastating :-(
Poor Spitfire :-x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk

and two-more hits would tear the wing away? Look at the metal, already it's twisting and buckling! THere is no way it would leave a 'clean' edge?

[Jumo211]

No no , I am not arguing about smooth edge , I posted video to show that
there is no way even smaller caliber bullets and also bigger cannon shells will leave
clean cut on the wing during impact , there should be always at least some
shredded aluminium and cables torn ;)
This one video was for Kruppi :grin:

[JG52Krupi]

How can you guys not understand that the damage with a straight edge is simply showing a shearing of the bolts? Not damage from a cannon just shearing of the bolts from too much pressure applied to the outer wing...

The hurricanes wing is made from two parts.

[VO101_Tom]

The Germans called the 109 a saw... this was bought according to literally possibly :-D

[JG52Krupi]

This is the last post on this topic and im here with some fairly conclusive evidence of damage shown on the wing.

Shown in this picture is the lugs that the outer wing attaches to.

http://www.griffintrust.org.uk/history/hurri13.jpg

The images below show the lugs pulled apart by the force of the cannons hitting the wing, leading to the removal of the wing.

http://s2.postimage.org/vgkcny3u/shot_20110731_164726.png (http://postimage.org/image/5xs0ax7o/full/)
upload gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s2.postimage.org/2aieym26g/shot_20110731_164759.png (http://postimage.org/image/5y1xj06c/full/)
gif upload (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s2.postimage.org/ipode98t/shot_20110731_164851.png (http://postimage.org/image/5ya77qn8/full/)
upload pngpng (http://www.postimage.org/)

[philip.ed]

I can see what Krupi is saying. The end of the Hurris wing was hit, but the pressure was so much, it caused the wing to sever (cleanly) at the joint.
Fairly simple IMHO

Great video HG! That really is quite scary, though.

[Stefem]

Krupi is right here, look carefully at the pictures/screen he posted and you can see what happened, the brackets are broken and the wing left off.
This kind of complaints are fed by "spectacular" game like WoP, such games has not to be realistic so developer can frees his creativity and create something very spectacular but that don't care of the aircraft structure and what happens on the real things.
The same is for sound, Oleg's team can't waste resources making, for example, a cool engine start-up sound just because it "feels" realistic, they need to find some real reference first and then they can implement it in the game, gathering reliable information is an incredibly time consuming thing to do and this explain why it took so long to CoD to come out, I mean, they has carefully modeled each aircraft frame and created the damage model accordingly to the aircraft structure!
Using WoP as comparison reveals superficiality in sim and games development in general.

[esmiol]

like i always said... compare WOP to COD is like compare Mariokart to Rfactor :)

[JG52Krupi]

Krupi is right here, look carefully at the pictures/screen he posted and you can see what happened, the brackets are broken and the wings left off.
This kind of complaints are fed by "spectacular" game like WoP, such games has not to be realistic so developer can frees his creativity and create something very spectacular but that don't care of the aircraft structure and what happens on the real things.
The same is for sound, Oleg's team can't waste resources making, for example, a cool engine start-up sound only because it "feels" realistic, they need to find some real reference first and then they can implement it in the game, gathering reliable information is an incredibly time consuming thing to do and this explain why it took so long to CoD to come out, I mean, they has carefully modeled each aircraft frame and created the damage model accordingly to the aircraft structure!
Using WoP as comparison reveals superficiality in sim and games development in general.

like i always said... compare WOP to COD is like compare Mariokart to Rfactor :)

I can see what Krupi is saying. The end of the Hurris wing was hit, but the pressure was so much, it caused the wing to sever (cleanly) at the joint.
Fairly simple IMHO

Great video HG! That really is quite scary, though.

Thanks guys glad someone else understands where I am coming from, it shows the level of detail that MG have gone into when researching aircraft.

[Jumo211]

Yes , at least something is visible in your pictures Krupi but still too much clean looking cut without aileron control wires :mrgreen:
If they have done such detail as nuts and bolts , few control wires should have been a piece of cake .
Just kiddin' , thanks for posting pics :grin:

@ philip.ed , :-P

[Mysticpuma]

Okay, my mistake, I see the Hurricane was made of Lego and all the edges are perfect.

What a surprise to hear that WoP gets flamed again for trying to add a touch of randomness to the joint breakage.

Fortunately every bullet that hits passes through the exact juncture of the bolts and it snaps neatly away on the Hurricane.

I was sure there were cables and fabric on the aircraft too along some of those joints, but I suppose we'll just have to have a nice laser slice cut effect.

MP

[JG52Krupi]

Okay, my mistake, I see the Hurricane was made of Lego and all the edges are perfect.

What a surprise to hear that WoP gets flamed again for trying to add a touch of randomness to the joint breakage.

Fortunately every bullet that hits passes through the exact juncture of the bolts and it snaps neatly away on the Hurricane.

I was sure there were cables and fabric on the aircraft too along some of those joints, but I suppose we'll just have to have a nice laser slice cut effect.

MP

SIGH... Look again its the lugs.

The bullet hits the wing overloads the lugs causing them to fail therefore leading to the whole outer wing coming off.

The cannon has not hit the lugs it has hit near by and induced so much force that they fail.

Your bashing the dev team for carrying out research instead of adding any old damage effect.

[furbs]

Now now Krupi, we did agree there should be SOME more visual damage along the edge, even if the wing fails due to stress.

And if the wing come off due to a collision or fuel tank explosion then we should not see the clean break.

[JG52Krupi]

Now now Krupi, we did agree there should be SOME more visual damage along the edge, even if the wing fails due to stress.

And if the wing come off due to a collision or fuel tank explosion then we should not see the clean break.

Yes I said maybe the faring that goes over the joint should be bent up but they have taken the time to model broken lugs and are still bashed ARRGGGGHHHH I m so glad I don't work in this industry.

I am only a sodding aerospace engineer WTF would I know :rolleyes:

This is a game Furbs and there is a limitation to the visual damage.

[furbs]

yes, but we both have seen the same amount of hurricane wing breaks due to stress in world war 2. :)


none.

[furbs]

This is a game Furbs and there is a limitation to the visual damage.

Not on the other planes there isn't.

Now take some pills for your headache. :)

[JG52Krupi]

yes, but we both have seen the same amount of hurricane wing breaks due to stress in world war 2. :)


none.

Well... Actually.. Hang on... I... Okay you might have a point :D

Still MP is thinking that the damage shown is a cannon hit no.. its the resultant damage from overloading the wing, a physical weak point in the wings design.

[retrojet]

Oh dear...

I can tell we're stomping past 'niggling' ;)

I have to say, the DMs are still impressive, but may always need tweaking...?
It's just hard to take sides concerning anything until we get our claws on a substantial patch/update... When that happens, all bets are off! :-D

[Mysticpuma]

Well... Actually.. Hang on... I... Okay you might have a point :D

Still MP is thinking that the damage shown is a cannon hit no.. its the resultant damage from overloading the wing, a physical weak point in the wings design.


Okay Krupi, if I offer you an armistice on the wing break/overload point and then say, very well young man, go blow me up a wing of the aircraft that isn't at the stress point and show me the shattered metal edge and hanging debris (as can apparently be seen on other models) I shall then say "you win" the Hurricane doesn't just fall apart at exactly the same point every time, it can indeed have a a rough edge to the damage?

It just seems every time a piece of the wing falls off a Hurricane (the only aircraft I am considering at the moment in this conversation), it is always the same point. I have never seen a wing shredded and torn away, all seem to snap?

MP

[JG52Krupi]

Okay Krupi, if I offer you an armistice on the wing break/overload point and then say, very well young man, go blow me up a wing of the aircraft that isn't at the stress point and show me the shattered metal edge and hanging debris (as can apparently be seen on other models) I shall then say "you win" the Hurricane doesn't just fall apart at exactly the same point every time, it can indeed have a a rough edge to the damage?

It just seems every time a piece of the wing falls off a Hurricane (the only aircraft I am considering at the moment in this conversation, it is always the same point. I have never seen a wing shredded and torn away, all seem to snap?

MP

Okay will get a screenshot two secs.

[JG52Krupi]

Okay here you go I hope this will put the matter to rest.. I know it does not show system (Wires etc) only structural damage but I imagine it would be a lot of effort for something so little.

http://s2.postimage.org/1aqqgs86m/shot_20110731_201312.png (http://postimage.org/image/8gjy8p0k/full/)
free image hosting (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s2.postimage.org/2d1590hho/shot_20110731_201338.png (http://postimage.org/image/8gs7xfhg/full/)
upload gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s2.postimage.org/3fbidpe87/shot_20110731_201436.png (http://postimage.org/image/8gyu2tgk/full/)
wordpress image hosting (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s2.postimage.org/l8hyvdkf/shot_20110731_201507.png (http://postimage.org/image/8h3souxw/full/)
image host (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://s2.postimage.org/1arlvztl9/shot_20110731_201546.png (http://postimage.org/image/8hfdgaec/full/)
hosting images (http://www.postimage.org/)

Was that what you were looking for?

[Mysticpuma]

Well I was hoping for more of the example I made from your picture....but I guess having a little wrapping paper curl at the break is enough until they can get the next patch out?

Here's what I'd like to see from a good pounding of the wing (see attached)

Cheers and thanks for the duel, MP

[palker4]

Guys Krupi has been right all along what he says that wing on hurri is not attached to a fuselage at root but the root is a part of the fuselage and the skin is not continuous becouse the wing is composed of 2 parts conecte only by four bolts when these bolts breaks the entire wing will fly of leaving perfectly straight edge just look at the pictures Krupi posted or this cutaway or a scale model if you have one
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/militaryaviation1903-1945cutaways/images/10588/hawker-hurricane-cutaway.jpg

[JG52Krupi]

Well I was hoping for more of the example I made from your picture....but I guess having a little wrapping paper curl at the break is enough until they can get the next patch out?

Here's what I'd like to see from a good pounding of the wing (see attached)

Cheers and thanks for the duel, MP

Duel :D no problem..

I think one of the reason why you get the damage that you made on the spit is due to the structure as well... IIRC the spitfire covers were designed to bear load not just the spar and ribs this meant that the covers were thicker but for the huri the covers were not designed to bear load and therefore the cover would be very thin hence the breaks always occur around the ribs (At least that's what I think).

[furbs]

Guys Krupi has been right all along what he says that wing on hurri is not attached to a fuselage at root but the root is a part of the fuselage and the skin is not continuous becouse the wing is composed of 2 parts conecte only by four bolts when these bolts breaks the entire wing will fly of leaving perfectly straight edge just look at the pictures Krupi posted or this cutaway or a scale model if you have one
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/militaryaviation1903-1945cutaways/images/10588/hawker-hurricane-cutaway.jpg


There must be wires and other stuff in the join though right?

and even if the wing broke due to stress, there would be SOME damage as the wing flew off?

whats the other half of the wing like Krupi?

[JG52Krupi]

There must be wires and other stuff in the join though right?

and even if the wing broke due to stress, there would be SOME damage as the wing flew off?

whats the other half of the wing like Krupi?

The bits that fly of has a few cannon shells covering it :D

[KG26_Alpha]

Alpha, ive seen the clean wing breaks as well as puma, ive also seen all the stuff you just posted.

maybe the clean breaks just need removing?

I have yet to see a jagged break, only clean breaks.

I have them on my CoD as Krupi does and others that have already shown here.

The Hurris wing is stress fracturing on the bolts as shown earlier in this thread. (No need for me to further Krupis examples).

Also

Spits wings are not as strong as you might imagine at the root (visually), due to the skins aerodynamics, the wing looks huge at the root and its fixing when in fact its a small portion attached in comparison with the surface area you see,
in case there's any question regarding Spit wings coming off to easily in future "bug" complaints here's and example of a partially stripped wing root.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/DSCF2166.jpg

Modelling wiring and hydraulic pipes would be nice but complex in some models like the Beaufighters wings leading edges.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/DSCF3055.jpg

[palker4]

Entire wing is held by 4 bolts damage one or two of them and the wing will just fly away with none or very little damage to the edges or the skin of aircraft. If you look on pictures already posted in this thread you will see that if only an outer part of wing is shot of you will get shreded edges also with damaged wingspars

[furbs]

Agreed, but surly the wing is getting damaged by the shells on the way through the wing? and i still would like to see the other half of the wing, the bit that flew away.
Just to see if the break is clean there too.

[JG52Krupi]

http://s2.postimage.org/h6nadru2e/shot_20110730_153315.png (http://postimage.org/image/307jijiw4/full/)
adult image hosting (http://www.postimage.org/)

Like that?

Unfortunately I have uninstalled the mods so if you need a closer pic you have to wait until tomorrow :(

[Blackdog_kt]

After all the testing and screenshot's i'll have to say i'm with Krupi on this one.

I didn't know about the bolts but i was aware the Hurricane was the only aircraft in the sim having such clean wing breaks, as most of all the rest have a bit of a jagged edge.

Krupi's explanation makes sense to me because it's not necessary to damage the bolts directly: any kind of damage that significantly affects the distribution of airflow and aerodynamic forces on the wing has the potential to pull sideways at those bolts and have them snap.

I think i'll chalk this up to my "obscure features misunderstood for bugs/omissions" list and i really like to see how much attention to detail there is in the DMs. Best thing i've seen? Here's my top cases:

1) Running for home with a small fire on the left wing in a 110 (fuel tank got hit), the moment i slowed down to ditch the fire started spreading to the entire wing. In other words, airflow affects fires. I've also extinguished a burning aileron this way by diving.

2) The visible difference in propeller RPM (that blur effect) when an engine is damaged. Very cool to watch on multi-engined aircraft.

3) Trying to shoot down some Blenheims with a 109E-1, i saddled up behind one and surgically "disabled" the gunner. I then let them have the entire magazine, observing which parts are best to hit, which have no effect and so on. At some point, shooting at a spot a little behind the Blenheim's engine nacelle, i saw something flickering and thought it was a graphics glitch. I paused, cycled the external view to my target and could see nothing. Unpausing, i saw it again: a piece of metal in the wing skin was deformed upwards and flapping in the wind.


P.S. Good job on keeping the thread civil, this has been an informative one thus far ;-)

[JG52Krupi]

My god I have won an argument online :D

I do apologize for my first post it was rather blunt to put it mildly :|

I agree Blackdog, Luthier said that they were proud of the damage model and if the new aircraft have the same attention paid to them as the ones we currently have :D I just cannot wait to see a 190 with its engine panels blown away and a fantastic cockpit.

[Sternjaeger II]

My humble opinion is that yes, once again visual DM has been dealt with in the same unrealistic way of Il-2, whoever took care of it should be fired lol

The truth is that making a realistic visual DM can be very difficult in terms of the possible kinds of it: you can have induced damage from cannon fire (hence the big gaping holes and the irregular breaks) or structural failure, due to overstress or other damage.

The Hurricane wing is a chunky monster bolted to the wingroot, and frankly that joint is quite strong, but I suppose it would break there. The problem is that there would be bits dangling and skin half stripped off too.. it's obvious this is not the finished DM, or is it?

[JG52Krupi]

My humble opinion is that yes, once again visual DM has been dealt with in the same unrealistic way of Il-2, whoever took care of it should be fired lol

The truth is that making a realistic visual DM can be very difficult in terms of the possible kinds of it: you can have induced damage from cannon fire (hence the big gaping holes and the irregular breaks) or structural failure, due to overstress or other damage.

The Hurricane wing is a chunky monster bolted to the wingroot, and frankly that joint is quite strong, but I suppose it would break there. The problem is that there would be bits dangling and skin half stripped off too.. it's obvious this is not the finished DM, or is it?

Yawn.. look at the assembly of a hurri again it is by no means chunky its made of tubes and thin sheets of aluminum...

I cannot be bothered trying to convince another person... time for someone else to help the deluded.

[JG52Krupi]

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/109221d1299774480t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-48166d1190506103-355th-fg-pics-ekp-440828-358-kia_8402_gilmore.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/109222d1299759286t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-bf-109_hole_in_cowl_535.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/109224d1299763827t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-bf-109-damage.jpg

WHOO FOUND IT :D

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1290/hccustombu6.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/159915d1299758376t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-b26flakxz9.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/171269d1309098874t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-wellington5.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/171269d1309098874t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-wellington5.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/171271d1309098893t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-wellington3.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/171272d1309098901-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-wellington2.jpg

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/171273d1309098916t-battle-damaged-aircraft-ww2-wellington1.jpg

[furbs]

Ahhhhhhhhhaaaaa Krupi, thats a different part of the wing!! yer yer...and i see damage and bits!!

Seriously though, the DM is one of the strong points of COD, and in this case i think Krupi is 90% right, i never knew that about the bolts on wing.

In a perfect world we would see a little more tearing and bits, but i can agree we would see a cleanish break.

And if the DM could be even more accurate it would only happen from damage to the wing and putting stress on the joints.

Any shooting of the joints "should" show damage around the joint area but maybe we cant have everything.


well done Krupi and good research. :)

[klem]

Everyone agrees, yes?
:mrgreen:

On this forum?

Don't be daft.

You were a page too early :)

[skouras]

the damage in cod is the best that i saw in a combat sim
and it is very accurate:cool:

[JG52Krupi]

Ahhhhhhhhhaaaaa Krupi, thats a different part of the wing!! yer yer...and i see damage

Yeah its more comparable with the outer wing damage.. Would be nice to know what caused the damage.. Looks like a crash landing

[SQB]

So Krupi (I neither agree nor disagree as yet) does the wing spar not pass as one, continuous, metal rod/beam from the inside to outside..? Is it really cut into sections and then bolted? You would think hakwer would have noticed the potential for this to go wrong :s

[robtek]

For the ease of repairing / exchanging parts the wings were divided in parts.
The 109 wing is also fixed on 4 points, but directly at the wing root.
That was possible by attaching the main gear to the fuselage, resulting in a different can of worms.
Only the Spit, afaik, had the undivided main spar at this time.
There might be more planes with this attribute, but then i dont study wings, except through the ReVi. :D

[JG52Krupi]

For the ease of repairing / exchanging parts the wings were divided in parts.
The 109 wing is also fixed on 4 points, but directly at the wing root.
That was possible by attaching the main gear to the fuselage, resulting in a different can of worms.
Only the Spit, afaik, had the undivided main spar at this time.
There might be more planes with this attribute, but then i dont study wings, except through the ReVi. :D

I know the 190 has a one piece wing as well but not sure if it used an undivided spar?

[furbs]

For the ease of repairing / exchanging parts the wings were divided in parts.
The 109 wing is also fixed on 4 points, but directly at the wing root.
That was possible by attaching the main gear to the fuselage, resulting in a different can of worms.
Only the Spit, afaik, had the undivided main spar at this time.
There might be more planes with this attribute, but then i dont study wings, except through the ReVi. :D

AHHHH HAA thanks robtek!! so Krupi, lets look at the damage on the 109 again....

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iHO2TxQIdfM/TeTTfeUwUOI/AAAAAAAABPg/CmnsZYUuPOY/s1280/shot_20110410_230401.jpg


Thats the damage we want to see along the hurricane edge, if the 109 shows it? why cant the hurri?

anyway, only joshing with ya again Krupi :) but there it is mate.

[robtek]

Ahh, Furbs,

in the 109 picture you see damage to the fairing over the wing-root.
There is no fairing to be damaged at the wing-joint of the Hurri! :D :D :D

[furbs]

ahhh ha robtek!! im sure there is!! *goes to have another look*

[furbs]

I think this is it....


http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9747/launcher201108010926358.png
By furbs9999 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/furbs9999) at 2011-08-01

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1772/launcher201108010926447.png
By furbs9999 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/furbs9999) at 2011-08-01

So if the 109 has the same bolt on wings as the hurri (IF!!!!) and the join is covered with a fairing, when the wing rips off we see this...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iHO2TxQIdfM/TeTTfeUwUOI/AAAAAAAABPg/CmnsZYUuPOY/s1280/shot_20110410_230401.jpg

we should expect the hurri to show the same rip along the fairing? AHHHH HAAA have that Krupi!! (if the 109 has the bolts) :)

[palker4]

190 has a continuos front spar with rear being divided at the fuselage.
And furbs It has already been said that the skin is divided at the conecting point

[JG52Krupi]

There is a small cover that wraps around the joint how this connects to the wing I don't know but if it is modelled correctly I would say that it is welded to the outer wing and therefore no tearing would be seen!

[furbs]

Im sure i can see rivets Krupi :)

[JG52Krupi]

http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/_images/_completed/g-hury/hury10.html

In those pics you can see the gap between the outer wing and root, I'm trying to find out how the faring that covers this gap is attached, certainly is not riveted.

It makes sense not to attach it to both sides as they would want to be able to easily remove the outer wing so I'm 100% sure we will find out that it is only connected to one edge... :D

[furbs]

the fairing wraps around the whole wing, it doesn't matter what part its attached to, one part will be ripped.

[JG52Krupi]

the fairing wraps around the whole wing, it doesn't matter what part its attached to, one part will be ripped.

???? Of course it does if it is attached to both sides then it will crack and you will end up with a serrated edge on both sides and also it will be hard to remove the wing during repair if it's only connected on one side you can easily remove the wing and you be left with a bent fairing when the lugs fail.

[furbs]

bored now. lets forget the whole thing. :)

[JG52Krupi]

bored now. lets forget the whole thing. :)

Well then

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41577_214635996312_5395408_n.jpg

[Stefem]

The wing is designed to be removable for maintenance and transportation needs.

http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/_images/_completed/g-hury/81.JPG
http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/_images/_completed/ae977/g.jpg
http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/_images/_completed/ae977/h.jpg
http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/_images/_completed/ae977/k.jpg

[retrojet]

On this forum?

Don't be daft.

You were a page too early :)

Haha! I just thought, if I got in and got out quick enough, I wouldn't get hurt by the flak!

It's just a flesh wound, I'll be alright!...
:cry:

[yellonet]

Seems as though the spits wings always breaks in the same uneven way... which is even more weird compared to the break of the the hurris wing that is pre perforated so to speak.

Also, I've had it happen on numerous occasions, I crash into another plane with my spit which is undamaged while the other plane breaks in half...