Lucas does Red Tails...

[Jatta Raso]

it's coming out after all, although it smells to yet another CGI fest. anyway those who didn't can have a look at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpA6TC0T_Lw

[zakkandrachoff]

and a movie of this guy?

http://www.barnesreview.org/images/ericgermanfighterace_sml.jpg

:cool:

[Jaws2002]

God, those FMs are hurting my eyes. :rolleyes:

I'll go drink a bunch of beers and play that again in few hours. Maybe then it will look more credible.:|

It's sad when this hollywood idiots mess up history this bad. This is a very important chapter in African American history and the real history was bloody great as it was.
Why do you have to twist it in this way? :(

Bunch of idiots.

[danjama]

God, those FMs are hurting my eyes. :rolleyes:

I'll go drink a bunch of beers and play that again in few hours. Maybe then it will look more credible.:|

It's sad when this hollywood idiots mess up history this bad. This is a very important chapter in African American history and the real history was bloody great as it was.
Why do you have to twist it in this way? :(

Bunch of idiots.

You haven't even seen it yet, wow. And I thought i was a pessimist.

I'll just copy/paste what i wrote elsewhere:

My opinion is, i'm surprised this got made at all, with the, putting it lightly, lack of interest in this era from young people today (I say that as if i'm old, i'm only 23, which means i'm in touch enough to know this about 'young' people).

I'll definitely be seeing it, if anything to compare it to the original movie. However, it concerns me that the film will be full of 'symbolism' to somehow relate to todays political and social issues (as in Avatar). I hope that isn't the case, and they've stuck to the historical proceedings.

The CGI looks good, and i hope that the aircraft schemes/markings are accurate to their period/theatre.

[baronWastelan]

Where the heck did they get the ideas for those sounds??? From playing CloD??

Please tell me this is a parody, not a real movie. At 2:15 the bf 109 gets shot in the wing by a P51 and as the wings comes off the bf 109 magically becomes a Me 262.

[ElAurens]

It's going to suck as bad a Pearl Harbor.

They can't even get the paint schemes on the German aircraft correct, and since when did P-51s have thrust vectoring?

:rolleyes:

[Jatta Raso]

the CGI didn't convince me that much, especially after seeing CloD models in real time; the flames and smoke trails are nothing to brag about IMO and the shot of the P-51 on 2:14 looks kinda video game (a criticism to film and compliment to VG on equal measure); not that the way it's shot does any favors. but maybe they're using placeholders on some effects :confused:

[capt vertigo]

That is going straight dvd..

[Jatta Raso]

and a movie of this guy?

http://www.barnesreview.org/images/ericgermanfighterace_sml.jpg

:cool:

he was not american :rolleyes:

[danjama]

That is going straight dvd..

Not with their marketing money.

[David Hayward]

At 2:15 the bf 109 gets shot in the wing by a P51 and as the wings comes off the bf 109 magically becomes a Me 262.

You might want to watch the clip again, because your description of that part is absurd.

[retrojet]

Technical and historic details aside, how often do we get a film that covers what we all appreciate?!
Of course, they're make it look like '40's star wars, but I'll take what I can get!
If it helps keep the memory alive of all the sacrifce that millions made, I'll keep my fingers crossed it's not a total waste of time and money...
:neutral:

[choctaw111]

I noticed a lot of "Hollywood" stuff in there. Why can't these film makers just keep things historical?

[Blackdog_kt]

I'll watch it for sure despite the inaccuracies, but i don't think i'll go to a movie theater so it's going to be a DVD rental for me.

Come to think of it, i've watched and even enjoyed other not to realistic films that feature some aviation but the only one i saw in a theater was memphis belle.

What i'd really like to see is Peter Jackson doing the Dambusters remake as was rumored at some point. I know you'll all say "it's the guy who did lord of the rings and king kong", but i think he's a good choice.

Rumor has it he's an aviation buff so he might just do it justice and he's also been involved in other historical productions. I think he shot a special short film for the ANZAC museum in New Zealand, you go into the museum and there's a full scale trench diorama you can sit in and over the top of the trench is the projection screen where the film is displayed, showing a WWI infantry charge.

[David Hayward]

I just pray that the German aircraft have swastikas on them so we don't have to endure 50 pages of complaints about that.

[Sokol1]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan View Post
At 2:15 the bf 109 gets shot in the wing by a P51 and as the wings comes off the bf 109 magically becomes a Me 262.
You might want to watch the clip again, because your description of that part is absurd.


David Hayward

Watch again:

At 2:15 a P-51 loop like a Fokker Dr.1 and shoot at left wing of yellow wing tip Bf-109.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1856/rt1.jpg

In the next frame a Me-262 lost this left wing...

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7114/rt2sm.jpg

Hope that this (dis)continuity be only in trailer... :P

Sokol1

[speculum jockey]

I'm assuming that's just sloppy editing with regards to the trailer.

One thing you can count on in this film. . . Wilhelm screams x1000

[baronWastelan]

You might want to watch the clip again, because your description of that part is absurd.

Of course it's absurd, that's why I mentioned it. The mistake in the trailer is called a "continuity error", look it up.

[Edit] see Sokol1's post above

[David Hayward]

Of course it's absurd, that's why I mentioned it. The mistake in the trailer is called a "continuity error", look it up.

[Edit] see Sokol1's post above

There is no such thing as a "continuity error" in a trailer. It was a montage of combat scene clips from the movie. If the same thing happens in the movie, then it's a "continuity error".

[baronWastelan]

There is no such thing as a "continuity error" in a trailer. It was a montage of combat scene clips from the movie. If the same thing happens in the movie, then it's a "continuity error".

I see, it's a word game here, I didn't realize my posts had to be approved by a grammar nazi. :rolleyes:

[David Hayward]

I see, it's a word game here, I didn't realize my posts had to be approved by a grammar nazi. :rolleyes:

Grammar has nothing to do with it. It was obviously a montage of clips from the movie. Using your "logic" we can also criticize the trailer for having pilots magically transported from the ops building to Germany in 2 seconds.

[baronWastelan]

Let it go David, you didn't see what I was talking about in the trailer, hence you called my description "absurd", then after Sokol1, who did see and understand, posted images to illustrate it, you turned it into a word game.

[Jatta Raso]

What i'd really like to see is Peter Jackson doing the Dambusters remake as was rumored at some point. I know you'll all say "it's the guy who did lord of the rings and king kong", but i think he's a good choice.



hey Lord of the Rings are great movies, it was no easy task. of course it could have been different, but see not many ways to do it better. if Dambusters goes forward i also trust it will turn out ok.

[BMCha]

At 2:15 the bf 109 gets shot in the wing by a P51 and as the wings comes off the bf 109 magically becomes a Me 262.
While there are undoubtedly many errors in this movie, I think the above was caused by the trailer-editor-probably-knows-nothing-about-WWII-fighters effect. (the 109 cut to a shot from a different scene featuring a 262)

EDIT: Wow I'm late. Must've neglected to refresh/missed the page count

[Ctrl E]

Trailer looks good. Lucas is also a vintage aviation afficiando so he will have put in a fair bit of love (and cash) to this project.

For the record the the freaky maneuver with the p-51 pulling a stall turn and shooting up the me 262 did by some accounts happen. There was an episode of that history channel's dog fights about it.

There will be some smaltzy moments - the film has to make money after all.

Tell your friends and go see it at the cinema chaps. Who knows - if it sells lots of tickets it could revive the genre and the sim market as well.

[swiss]

You guys are nuts.

It's movie: The primary purpose of a movie is to generate money - not please some virtual fighters jocks with realistic FMs or historically correct paint schemes.
In other words: We are only a few and therefore notr really important.

Although the theme imho sux, I'll rather have crappy movie one than none.

[fireflyerz]

George , you are no Ridley Scott.

[David Hayward]

Let it go David, you didn't see what I was talking about in the trailer, hence you called my description "absurd", then after Sokol1, who did see and understand, posted images to illustrate it, you turned it into a word game.

No, I saw exactly what you saw, and it was obviously a montage. But, let's assume for a second you are right. Let's assume that the movie has a scene where a P-51 driver shoots the wing off a 109 which then morphs into a 262.

Do you think that:

a. The people who made this movie really don't know the difference between a 262 and a 109.

or

b. it's a plot device to get the movie from mid/late 1944 to the end of the war.

Basically, there are 2 possibilities.

1. You made an absurd assumption.

2. You made an absurd assumption.

[baronWastelan]

No, I saw exactly what you saw, and it was obviously a montage. But, let's assume for a second you are right. Let's assume that the movie has a scene where a P-51 driver shoots the wing off a 109 which then morphs into a 262.

Do you think that:

a. The people who made this movie really don't know the difference between a 262 and a 109.

or

b. it's a plot device to get the movie from mid/late 1944 to the end of the war.

Basically, there are 2 possibilities.

1. You made an absurd assumption.

2. You made an absurd assumption.

You obviously have some sort of fixation on me. In any case, I have better things to do than engage with my latest internet stalker. If you want to further discuss the scene at 2:15, please address your posts to the one who kindly went to the trouble to illustrate my point with screenshots so that you could understand:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=316861&postcount=16

Now, kindly remove yourself from my leg, nobody here is interested in seeing such a display, which has no place in this discussion.

[David Hayward]

Your surrender is duly noted.

[retrojet]

I sometimes feel that a 'smiley' here and there, tends to take the chill out, wouldn't you agree? :mrgreen:
Or am I being over sensitive? :confused:

[Doc_uk]

To much lag for my likeing:rolleyes:

[retrojet]

Blimey, Doc!
You like to start early... Can't get enough of the sparkling conversation, or what?
;)

[Ze-Jamz]

Two words..

Pearl Harbour

[Doc_uk]

Blimey, Doc!
You like to start early... Can't get enough of the sparkling conversation, or what?
;)been up since 5.30:) no point waisting a good day

[Ze-Jamz]

been up since 5.30:) no point waisting a good day

Morning lads. :)

[Phazon]

It had sounds and trees, at the same time! The advancement of technology these days. :)

[hiro]

yeah its not historically accurate,

but like others mentioned historically accurate doesn't sell. Not in movies, not in entertainment, not in video games.

Best selling game is Call of Duty . . . but that's hardly accurate. But what does is it imparts a feeling of how most imagine a soldier would be as unrealistic as it is.

Its nowhere near the quality and heart (although it does have have that), historical and realism as a great sim would.

Look at UFC, its top selling and those guys think they are the bomb. Its not realistic, but its a sport that sells.


Realism doesn't really appeal that much. UNless you are a history buff, or dealing with critical issues such as in the ER or Iraq / Afghanistan etc.


What is great about hollywood movies like Pearl Harbor, Saving PRivate Ryan, MEmphis Belle, is it gets people thinking about warbirds or what the WW 2 generation went through. I remember Pearl Harbor, my brother who can name more Laker players than WW 2 military participants, started asking and when I told of shangrila and Doolittle, he said that was a really cool story and said they should have played up on the Japanese side.



And kudos for Lucas for doing Red Tails.

The sad thing is, that's what society wants. Sex sells, mindless action. Look at the box office blockbusters and you can name 10 different movies that have better plot, story, theme, drama, character development, and other elements (like the ohhh new tech that drives sci fi or ohhh new spell / dragon for fanatasy etc) movie that are way better / don't recycle rehashed ideas . . .

Its the weakness of American culture, to want convenience over quality. the easy button instead of hard work.

it's the dark end of an idea driven society. Ideas can drive men (and women) to greatness but the love of ideals can overtake the actualization of the ideals. Also homogenizing of society, convenience has one size fits all since its easier just to make one version than 20 versions . . .

We can play witness to the degradation of society's want for quality. instead of the best there is, we've settled into just getting by.

Movies, music, material goods . . . anything . Ok I'm generalizing over the top but anyways.


I just hope HOllywood puts a good story and makes it moving like Medal of Honor or hurt locker / restrepo and keeps the Tuskegee story pretty much intact (well they may over dramatize it like they did with facebook movie and other movies).

Well Lucas here's to wishing A new hope isn't just Star Wars IV

[PeterPanPan]

Already been made for TV. Starred Laurence Fishburne, John Lithgow and Cuba Gooding Jr. and was a good film IIRC ...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114745/

PPP

[Ze-Jamz]

It's already been made?!

[David198502]

well i will definitely watch that movie.i didnt even know that it will be produced, so thx for the thread.
to be honest, i dont expect it to be very accurate, but i dont really care.it will be a action movie with nice warbirds, and regarding the trailer, a lot of dogfights.thats enough to entertain me.
the trailer looks at least more promising than pearl harbor or top gun.so i will watch it.
and by the way, when i look at the other action movies that come to the cinemas nowadays, this one will be on my topmovie list for 2012.hey its a film about ww2 warbirds.

[6S.Manu]

hey its a film about ww2 warbirds.

Really?

I hope it's a movie about the racial discrimination during the WW2... if it's a movie about ww2 warbirds then those guys are totally hopeless.

Another American generation who gets brainwashed...

[Bewolf]

It's a propaganda movie for modern audiences. The US has a pretty rough time right now, so there is nothing better then some good old fashioned WW2 gloryfying going on. Nothing wrong with that, imho, if it produces some spectacular pictures. (Does, trailer gave me goose bumps, totally going to see it :D )

Just funny how much yellow these guys use on german planes, particulary on that Me262's tail. Connection to modern german state symbols to not confuse some education vaccuums too much?
Or simply to give the enemy their own brand color opposed to the "Red" tails?

[David198502]

Really?

I hope it's a movie about the racial discrimination during the WW2... if it's a movie about ww2 warbirds then those guys are totally hopeless.

Another American generation who gets brainwashed...

well exactly that, i fear that it will be.about racial discrimination.but we have already seen that in pearl habour and some other movies.any way i dont care.its a hollywood movie, so we shouldnt expect much accurance.thats all i was trying to say.and that i will watch it, cause the movie will contain dogfights of ww2 warbirs.so nothing to argue about with me here.

[Sternjaeger II]

I have been following the development of this movie for a while now, they used real warbirds to shoot some of the scenes (the airbase that you see, which is supposed to be Italy, was actually shot in Czech Republic, and they used real P-51s and P-40s for flybys and other scenes) and despite the fact we already had a movie about Tuskegee Airmen, I was wondering what things would have been like when George Lucas put his hands on the genre..

The thing that puts me off it, like someone else said, is that he treated it like a "Star Wars of the 40s", with improbable points of view and scenes that defy physics for the sake of spectacularity (like the P-51 tumbling backwards and hitting the Me262), but making it a kind of ridiculous toy.

Dark Blue World, and to a certain extent The Red Baron were the last movies made with intelligence on the subject. The Pearl Harbor issue wasn't the aerial scenes per se (which were relatively ok, considering that there again, they used real planes), it was the appalling romance plot and acting.

[Blackdog_kt]

I think i'm going to agree with Stearnjaeger. I remember seeing photos from the shooting in Czech Republic, they also had a B-17 there with them.

Ditto also on DBW and the Red Baron which did suffer from its own set of inaccuracies (Lanoe Hawker flying an Se5a?!) and romance sub-plot but was generally believable in how the aircraft acted.


hey Lord of the Rings are great movies, it was no easy task. of course it could have been different, but see not many ways to do it better. if Dambusters goes forward i also trust it will turn out ok.

I don't disagree, i watched all of the LOTR movies too. I was trying to say that while people might be put off by the fact that Jackson is a well known fantasy films director, he is also very interested in aviation and history and could possible give us a realistic movie. Let's hope so ;-)

[BadAim]

Wow.

[Ze-Jamz]

The thing that puts me off it, like someone else said, is that he treated it like a "Star Wars of the 40s", with improbable points of view and scenes that defy physics for the sake of spectacularity (like the P-51 tumbling backwards and hitting the Me262), but making it a kind of ridiculous toy.


:) Exactly my thoughts

[Lololopoulos]

right, damage model looks good. but FM is worse than an arcade game.
also, shooting down a bomber is seems way too easy in this trailer.
but anyhow who would understand us??

[ElAurens]

:) Exactly my thoughts

+1

[choctaw111]

This thread is another classic example that people here can quarrel over the most ridiculous things when there are no updates or patches.

[Ze-Jamz]

Dont think updates or patches have anything to do with this thread mate? how did you come to that conclusion?

The OP has gave us something to look at and people have commented..whats the big deal?

regardless on how badly they make the FM's appear is a Pearl harbour-esq way I will still watch it..fact!

Il watch it for the scenery, special effects and rare chances to see some ww2 birds in action, i couldn't give a rats a$$ on how cheesy it is, like i said il still watch it as will a lot if not all of the people who have posted in this thread i suspect

[Sternjaeger II]

This thread is another classic example that people here can quarrel over the most ridiculous things when there are no updates or patches.

Well I suppose it's natural,this bit of the forum has become the O/T playground,because a) we got technical sub-forums b) there's no updates to talk about ;-)

Let's call it "hangar chat"

[ATAG_Dutch]

I thought this one was pretty good already.

http://www.videodetective.com/movies/trailers/the-tuskegee-airman-trailer/6114

As someone said, the new one looks like 'Pearl Harbour revisited'.

[ElAurens]

I'll go just to see P40s in flight.

It is my favorite aircraft of all time after all.

[Feathered_IV]

I'd certainly watch it for the P-40's too. With Lucas at the helm, I would not expect expect a mature approach though. However I am sure there will be a exhaustive range of Red Tails toys available to go with the film.

[Danelov]

Interesant the scene with the P-51 with Luftwaffe markings. About this time there was a lot of confussion and mistakes over Germany. Kozedub in his La-7 was engaged by P-51s and he shot down two of theses in self defense, some V-VS Yak-9s were also shot down by USAAF P-51s and at least one B-24 crossing the Oder line by mistake was shot down by Soviet fighters.

[LcSummers]

Thank you for this information, didnt know it but now i will watch it when released

i

[Hooves]

Jesus, you ingrates. Forget about the CGI, and the damn paint schemes. This is a movie celebrating one of the most successful fighter squadrons of WWII, not to mention the pure astronomical adversity that these pilots had to fight through just to prove how brave they were.

I had the honor of listening to one of these Tuskeegee Airmen speak at my squadron and let me tell you. Nothing that has happened in this AIR FORCE Since vietnam has been more heroic and downright humbling than what those pilots did in Europe.


I swear, reading this forum feels like a kick in the gut sometimes. You fools have NO idea what the GAME is all about. Or what kind of real men it took to go up and accomplish what so many before us have. You, nor I have ever seen war like these men did. And hell, Ive been shot at in Iraq.


Un-believable. Absolutly ZERO respect.

[Mysticpuma]

Gents, I have to be honest and say I was quite looking forward to seeing this film, but sadly, after watching the trailer I felt complete dismay with one line that is to be used in the story and it appears in the trailer too.

At 32-seconds in one of the 15th Airforce Generals' is heard to say "I want Pilots who will look after the Bombers and not just think about themselves!" (or words very similar).

To be honest I my jaw fell and I was quite angry to hear that.

In the time I have been researching the history of the 325th I have heard many stories of Pilots putting their lives at risk to look after their 'Big Friends' and this insinuates that every Pilot was only interested in dogfighting rather than protecting their charges. I am sure 31stFG pilots will be just as upset to hear this huge generalisation that only the 332nd would and could do this.

To be honest I feel like boycotting this film fo such a slight against all the pilots (other than the 332nd) who took part in the MTO, as you can imagine I am quite angry about this.

Sadly, as always happens, Hollywood decides History is an inconvenience to a good story, wheras the actual story of the 332nd needs no assistance, it was incredible!

MP

[yellonet]

Your surrender is duly noted.

Take a look at this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yellonet/internetgraphic1.jpg

[Hooves]

No, I saw exactly what you saw, and it was obviously a montage. But, let's assume for a second you are right. Let's assume that the movie has a scene where a P-51 driver shoots the wing off a 109 which then morphs into a 262.

Do you think that:

a. The people who made this movie really don't know the difference between a 262 and a 109.

or

b. it's a plot device to get the movie from mid/late 1944 to the end of the war.

Basically, there are 2 possibilities.

1. You made an absurd assumption.

2. You made an absurd assumption.

you hit this right on the head bro.

[yellonet]

I love how it says "Inspired by TRUE EVENTS", the first word probably being somewhat determining of the content of the movie ;)

[Feathered_IV]

Jesus, you ingrates. Forget about the CGI, and the damn paint schemes. This is a movie celebrating one of the most successful fighter squadrons of WWII, not to mention the pure astronomical adversity that these pilots had to fight through just to prove how brave they were.

I had the honor of listening to one of these Tuskeegee Airmen speak at my squadron and let me tell you. Nothing that has happened in this AIR FORCE Since vietnam has been more heroic and downright humbling than what those pilots did in Europe.


I swear, reading this forum feels like a kick in the gut sometimes. You fools have NO idea what the GAME is all about. Or what kind of real men it took to go up and accomplish what so many before us have. You, nor I have ever seen war like these men did. And hell, Ive been shot at in Iraq.


Un-believable. Absolutly ZERO respect.

I think that is the point everybody here is trying to make. This film by the "star wars guy" will not pay a worthy tribute, it will more likey be as fitting to the Tuskegee Airmen as the Pearl Harbour movie was to those who died in the USS Arizona. What people are railing against are the shallow mock-tributes of the Hollywood film industry, not the courage and sacrifice of the original airmen.

[Hooves]

Gents, I have to be honest and say I was quite looking forward to seeing this film, but sadly, after watching the trailer I felt complete dismay with one line that is to be used in the story and it appears in the trailer too.

At 32-seconds in one of the 15th Airforce Generals' is heard to say "I want Pilots who will look after the Bombers and not just think about themselves!" (or words very similar).

To be honest I my jaw fell and I was quite angry to hear that.

In the time I have been researching the history of the 325th I have heard many stories of Pilots putting their lives at risk to look after their 'Big Friends' and this insinuates that every Pilot was only interested in dogfighting rather than protecting their charges. I am sure 31stFG pilots will be just as upset to hear this huge generalisation that only the 332nd would and could do this.

To be honest I feel like boycotting this film fo such a slight against all the pilots (other than the 332nd) who took part in the MTO, as you can imagine I am quite angry about this.

Sadly, as always happens, Hollywood decides History is an inconvenience to a good story, wheras the actual story of the 332nd needs no assistance, it was incredible!

MP

While it would be wrong to discredit another Unit in any shape or form, try to keep two things in mind here. As we have proven in other posts on different subjects. Some of these Clips have been taken out of context. Also consider that, in some missions. This DID happen.

Its a crappy plot device to strip in down to assumptions of inability, or "want" to properly complete a mission. But again this isn't a movie about those other squadrons. Its about the 332nd.

[JG52Uther]

Its a Hollywood war movie from George Lucas.
I don't expect much in the way of accuracy, but will probably end up watching it at some point, just for the 'LOL!' moments, the 'WTF!' moments, and the 'FFS!' moments... ;)

[Hooves]

I think that is the point everybody here is trying to make. This film by the "star wars guy" will not pay a worthy tribute, it will more likey be as fitting to the Tuskegee Airmen as the Pearl Harbour movie was to those who died in the USS Arizona. What people are railing against are the shallow mock-tributes of the Hollywood film industry, not the courage and sacrifice of the original airmen.


While it would actually make me feel better if this were true. Im pretty sure those complaining about FM were just touting their E Pean "I know so much about FM's that I Can say those FM's are terrible" without even giving one iota of thought to what the movie is trying to do.

[the Dutchman]

Ah,so here's where all you whiners are hiding!
I was already wondering............:confused:

[yellonet]

While it would actually make me feel better if this were true. Im pretty sure those complaining about FM were just touting their E Pean "I know so much about FM's that I Can say those FM's are terrible" without even giving one iota of thought to what the movie is trying to do.

I'm pretty sure that almost everyone here is mature and intelligent enough to see that what Lucas is trying to do is to earn money by creating a movie that gives the impression of being a tribute to the airmen, but as I see it, the real reason for making the movie shines through as far more have been spent on creating "good" action than really creating a historical and authentic atmosphere that would really make people see what they went through. IMO this just looks like a run of the mill Hollywood action flick.
And personally I feel it's more of a mockery than a tribute.

[Lololopoulos]

:) Exactly my thoughts

i took another close look, the p-51 actually hit an 109, and then the scene was quickly cut to an me262 being shot off a wing.

shooting down bomber is made too easy in this film. most likely they have "realistic gunnery" turned off.

i'm really looking forward to this movie, but i'll probably ended up being disappointed and cursing the FM all the way through. :grin:

oh and did u guys see the livery of those 109s? geez.... they really should have done some more research.

[Jatta Raso]

some things seem to be intrinsic in this threads, whatever they're about. btw star wars was shot to resemble ww2 dogfights, that's rather evident in some scenes (the way tie-fighters dive in formation, the AA following the x-wings, the crash on the executor resembles kamikaze attack) so if this one turns out overdone and futuristic maybe darth vader will appear saying "the circle is now complete" :rolleyes:

[Luffe]

Give it a chance you nerds.

As I recall, Star Wars was pretty accurate... :) :|

oh well..

[retrojet]

It appears that modeling gravity is harder than you would think! :-D

C'mon guys, take it easy... It's a LucasArts attempt to tell an amazing true story about an amazing period in history!
But y'know they've got to make money, or else they won't be able to afford to patch it :rolleyes:

Seriously though, it has to have a broader public appeal, than to just this small, but highly educated elite group of experts ( and I mean that in all honesty)
Hence, the over-the-top FMs, etc. Etc.

I truly hope it does not end up like 'Pearl Harbor'!!! But I think the underlying facts will shine through, regardless.

Please don't start world war III... You know there are not enough real warbirds left to go round!!!

Break! break! break!.... Have a nice weekend! :mrgreen:

[Lololopoulos]

It appears that modeling gravity is harder than you would think! :-D

C'mon guys, take it easy... It's a LucasArts attempt to tell an amazing true story about an amazing period in history!
But y'know they've got to make money, or else they won't be able to afford to patch it :rolleyes:

Seriously though, it has to have a broader public appeal, than to just this small, but highly educated elite group of experts ( and I mean that in all honesty)
Hence, the over-the-top FMs, etc. Etc.

I truly hope it does not end up like 'Pearl Harbor'!!! But I think the underlying facts will shine through, regardless.

Please don't start world war III... You know there are not enough real warbirds left to go round!!!

Break! break! break!.... Have a nice weekend! :mrgreen:

what about pearl harbor?
Pearl Harbor was my all time favorite movie and THE movie that got me into aviation. I remember I was really into history till the day I saw pearl harbor. After watching it I put down all my history books and started reading aviation magazines. hahahahah

If not for pearl harbor, i wouldn't have played IL-2 to begin with, wouldn't have heard about CloD, wouldn't be here talking with u guys. :rolleyes:

[retrojet]

The one with affleck?

More love than a hippy commune!!!

Not enough flying and fighting! (but cgi was ok)

;)

[smink1701]

This movie has been in development for about 10 years. It's been cut, re-cut, shot, re-shot, added to and modified from start to finish. Sounds a bit like CloD. Anyway, like many have said we WWII fighter fanboys don't have many movies to choose from :( so I'll keep my hopes up that this won't be as bad as some we have seen of late.

[David Hayward]

Jesus, you ingrates. Forget about the CGI, and the damn paint schemes. This is a movie celebrating one of the most successful fighter squadrons of WWII, not to mention the pure astronomical adversity that these pilots had to fight through just to prove how brave they were.

I had the honor of listening to one of these Tuskeegee Airmen speak at my squadron and let me tell you. Nothing that has happened in this AIR FORCE Since vietnam has been more heroic and downright humbling than what those pilots did in Europe.


I swear, reading this forum feels like a kick in the gut sometimes. You fools have NO idea what the GAME is all about. Or what kind of real men it took to go up and accomplish what so many before us have. You, nor I have ever seen war like these men did. And hell, Ive been shot at in Iraq.


Un-believable. Absolutly ZERO respect.

No, YOU are missing the point. If this movie gets the German paint schemes wrong it is actually a slap in the face to those airmen. Same goes for the flight models. Or the cloud algorithms. Or any other minor flaws we can find.

[Bewolf]

Next thing you guys start is a flame war over Wehrmacht tactics in Indiana Jones.

[danjama]

I wonder if a Star Wars forum somewhere is up in arms, because the P-51 @ 2:15 in the trailer turns on a dime!

And for those claiming the CGI has no problems, just take a look at that one part.

Doesn't bother me, personally. Just saying.

And those 262's roll suspiciously fast.

Anyway, remember -

WE FIGHT, WE FIGHT, WE FIGHT, WE FIGHT.

[JG53Frankyboy]

as long there is no lovestory (at least not too much of it) in the movie - i will watch it !

Aircombat movies are to count on one hand in a decade......................

[Lololopoulos]

And those 262's roll suspiciously fast.



oh yeh, i knew something about those me262s looked weird.
1. they roll incredibly fast;
2. during their roll, they don't yaw at all. something that often seen in arcade flight games.

another thing about one of the ME262s was that its nose was painted entirely of yellow, which i don't think is historically accurate.

[danjama]

I read that the yellow on the 262's, though isn't accurate, may help them in removing any swastikas/markings in post-processing, for countries/organisations that object to it.

Also, there is a love story. Confirmed by someone involved in the filming.

[retrojet]

as long there is no lovestory (at least not too much of it) in the movie - i will watch it !

Aircombat movies are to count on one hand in a decade......................

Exactly... Don't get me wrong, I love women... I mean my wife! But there a time and place...
Otherwise, it's an insult to history.
Many brave women have put themselves in peril throughout history, but they would not want their sacrifice belittled by Hollywood stardust...

Night Witches...?

[GOA_Potenz]

Next thing you guys start is a flame war over Wehrmacht tactics in Indiana Jones.

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH
GREAT ONE MATE, very true i'm still laughing.

just of imagine people watching indiana jones with a book of military tactics complaining about everything

[retrojet]

Maybe all swastikas should be reversed... Just to take the edge off?...

[gflinch]

This whole movie could be fixed really quick, with the opening "in a galaxy far far away..."

[furbs]

If the film does justice to the story then ok il prob watch it and try to forget the P51 pulling a tie fighter turn and the rest of the awful CGI.

Did they get the roll rate in there from the AI roll rate in COD? :o

Oh and David Hayward, nice work again... they stuff you wrote in this thread actually made me gasp :grin:

[White Owl]

what about pearl harbor?
Pearl Harbor was my all time favorite movie and THE movie that got me into aviation. I remember I was really into history till the day I saw pearl harbor. After watching it I put down all my history books and started reading aviation magazines. hahahahah

If not for pearl harbor, i wouldn't have played IL-2 to begin with, wouldn't have heard about CloD, wouldn't be here talking with u guys. :rolleyes:

If that movie got you into airplanes, that's great. :)

People who were already into airplanes went to see Pearl Harbor because we wanted a remake of Tora Tora Tora with modern visual effects, but saw three hours of sappy soap opera instead.

Here's hoping Red Tails is closer to Tora Tora Tora than it is to Pearl Harbor. Even if the planes handle unrealistically, it can still be a good movie.

[Doc_uk]

Jesus, you ingrates. Forget about the CGI, and the damn paint schemes. This is a movie celebrating one of the most successful fighter squadrons of WWII, not to mention the pure astronomical adversity that these pilots had to fight through just to prove how brave they were.

I had the honor of listening to one of these Tuskeegee Airmen speak at my squadron and let me tell you. Nothing that has happened in this AIR FORCE Since vietnam has been more heroic and downright humbling than what those pilots did in Europe.


I swear, reading this forum feels like a kick in the gut sometimes. You fools have NO idea what the GAME is all about. Or what kind of real men it took to go up and accomplish what so many before us have. You, nor I have ever seen war like these men did. And hell, Ive been shot at in Iraq.


Un-believable. Absolutly ZERO respect.

Yes, and it will proberly turn into a stupid love story

[esmiol]

in fact this movie is just a remake of the 1995 movie "Tuskegee airmen".

really good movie!

[zakkandrachoff]

looking at the part that is 4 messerschmitt 262 "in formation", my ask is...

the formation of that plane was not allways of 3 planes?

and why they was staking the formation like do the fw190 or Bf 109, if the 262 directly need use is max velocity to attack and go away. They dont use standars tacticals, they was special force.

hope lucas change the software of the machine, or maybe when the me262 shoot his mk108, the sound will be "schiw" "schiw" "schiw"
:rolleyes:

[David Hayward]

Oh and David Hayward, nice work again... they stuff you wrote in this thread actually made me gasp :grin:

Which stuff was that, furbs? Was it the part where I pointed out that only an idiot would assume that the people who produced this movie would not know the difference between a 109 and a 262?

[Codex]

More Hollywood brain washing ...

I can just see the treads coming now ... "I've flown the P-51 just like they did in Red Tails but I can't catch the 262 in CoD ... the FM is porked" :rolleyes:

[AWL_Spinner]

Looks more "Pearl Harbour" than "Dark Blue World" so can't say as I'm too excited.

The only modern-era production I have any hope for in terms of realistic portrayal of aircraft physics (why do all CGI productions have to suck so bad?) is Jackson's Dambusters remake, although given the way the dog issue turned out it's already lost all historical credibility.

[speculum jockey]

Looks more "Pearl Harbour" than "Dark Blue World" so can't say as I'm too excited.

The only modern-era production I have any hope for in terms of realistic portrayal of aircraft physics (why do all CGI productions have to suck so bad?) is Jackson's Dambusters remake, although given the way the dog issue turned out it's already lost all historical credibility.

If it makes you feel any better you can say "nigger" as much as you want at home since the movie isn't going to include it.

How does the dog even have any impact on the film? Did it work the bombsights when they were targeting the dams in Germany? If that one little thing is going to ruin the movie for you, then you have serious problems.

What people are complaining here about Red Tails is that from a 2 minute trailer they've already been able to find enough mistakes to pretty much rule it out as being anything other than a story that happens to be based on true events.

[furbs]

I can live with the dodgy CGI if the film is good, but to say that a bunch of geekish flight sim guys on a flight sim forum arnt going to rip the iffy CGI apart is a little silly.

We rip each other apart over much less.

Oh and David, you wouldn't understand, if you did, you wouldn't of said it in the first place.

[ARM505]

Ah, Black people (because those are basically the only movie-worthy pilots of WW2, as evidenced by several movies already made, nothwithstanding Ben or the Belle), vs Nazi's (because that's what ALL Germans were in WW2). Great. I can't wait. Also, planes that clearly weigh nothing at all and have no inertia, as CGI always manages to put so obviously on display.

Seriously though, could somebody make a movie that portrays at least some elements of the war from the German side without making them all out as comic bad guys? This was after all a titanic struggle involving another side, in all it's complexity, and they WEREN'T ALL BABY-MURDERING NAZI'S! Surely there must be some movie worthy story from their side (NOT Tom Cruise AAAAARGH epic failing as Graf Stauffenberg pleeeeeaaaase!) I say this not in support of the Germans, but merely for the 'please can we have something FRESH FFS!' aspect!

/Rant

[furbs]

No all German soldiers look like "orcs" and only say "ja ja ja"

For the most part that's true, there are some good exceptions as you know i guess.

[GF_Mastiff]

It's nice to see Cuba gooding do this role again.

[winny]

It looks like a 'message' movie set in WW2 more than a film about WW2.. Oh well, I'll probably watch it enjoy it for what it is and also enjoy pulling it to bits.

Also looks like another hollywood re-write of history for artistic reasons..

I think there's also a big nod to Star Wars in this, anyone else reminded of Porkins (from A New Hope) death when watching the trailer?

It is a Lucasarts film so it'll probably have references to other movies throughout... Like ET in the Ball turret of a B-17, or something..

I totally agree on the CGI being inertia-less, when is sombody going to do some CGI that looks like it has some weight to it?

[Strike]

Gotta admit, I think he nailed the handling of the X-wings and Tie-Fighters far better than these UFO-51's ;)

[drewpee]

I would be much happier with a true as possible story line. Unforchantly Hollywood is more interested in sales than the truth. Peal Harbor was visually stunning but totally spoilt by the plot, acting and direction. Liberty Bell is the best of the US flight film IMA.

[Raggz]

I would be much happier with a true as possible story line. Unforchantly Hollywood is more interested in sales than the truth. Peal Harbor was visually stunning but totally spoilt by the plot, acting and direction. Liberty Bell is the best of the US flight film IMA.

I'm taking a guess that you mean "Memphis Belle" ?

[drewpee]

I'm taking a guess that you mean "Memphis Belle" ?

LOL yes Memphis Belle. My bad:rolleyes:

[AWL_Spinner]

If it makes you feel any better.. blah blah

You miss the point completely, of course, as to be expected in any terminally weak argument that invokes racism in it's first sentence (Godwin-lite?).

If it's not feasible to include it in a film in this day and age because of wrong-headed sensibilities then just don't include it. If hearing such words in a plummy British accent offends your delicate ears, don't put it in, no need to invite the revisionism squad to pretend it was something it wasn't. Not as if there's not enough drama elsewhere in the mission to cover, is it!

If it makes things any easier for you to understand, I'd be just as irritated by the invention of a beautiful American love interest, the casting of a woman as Wing Commander 'Guy' Gibson, or a P51 pathfinder piloted by Ben Affleck out in front of the Lancasters (or, logically, B17s). All just as fictitious as a dog named Digger.

It's simply unnecessary and cheapens the whole venture. The movie industry seems to view the public as simpletons (in this, and, to return vaguely to topic, the perceived need to portray WWII fighters as inertialess X-Wings because, presumably, real aircraft are just not sexy enough).

:rolleyes:

[Feathered_IV]

Fifty bucks says there will be a line something like:

"A pilot? Y'all got as much chance o becommin' pilots as one o' your kind as become president o the You-nighted Staites"

[David Hayward]

A couple of comments about the movie from Ed Shipley:


Just left OSH after spending a couple days with Lucas there.... he showed the trailer at the Young Eagles dinner... got a standing ovation. Then played it last night at the Ford Theater in the woods.... thousands of people there.... another standing ovation... and they screamed for it to be played again... which they did.

ASB has been helping consult on the flying sequences with the Mustangs for over year.... its been very cool to see this movie come together. The flying is mostly CGI... I wasn't sure about how it would really come out at first... but George's team has nailed it. For the first time ever the epic scale of aerial combat has been captured. No one could ever find the real planes or money to do it in the lens... George has the technology and skill set to make it all from scratch....

End of the day.... it's a dog fighting movie.... over an hour of aerial combat.... it's off the hook.

----

I've been looking at the Red Tail CGI for almost two years now. These guys are really driving for as much detail as they can... for example they were at the Gather of Mustangs and Legends taking photos of the tiny details of the Mustangs metal... which they then used to skin into the wire frames they built. ASB took two Mustangs up to Skywalker and attacked the ranch so their sound design folks could capture the noise the Stangs made. It goes on and on. As I watched the CGI come together... one of the things that I was quite taken back by was the scope of the number of aircraft in the air. Hundreds of them... these are not numbers that Lucas made up so he could make the movie bigger... it's how it really was. No one has been able to generate that number of planes in the air before. Additionally, because of the CGI they were able to place the camera (and audience) in places to watch the action where no one has ever been before.... which at times makes some of the shots overwhelming... but when was the last time anyone sat still at 20,000 feet and had a hundred B-17's come by while they were being attacked?

All I can tell you is that these guys have attacked the dogfight sequences with great effort and passion...

If you don't know who Ed Shipley is, he's the guy in `Double Trouble Two'.

http://www.aero-pix.com/qp09/p51/images/img_004.jpg

[David Hayward]

You would think that a guy who flies P-51s pretty regularly would be the most upset about the unrealistic flight model in this 2 minute trailer. Oddly, he does not appear to be very upset. Maybe you P-51 experts should go over to ASB and set him straight about how a P-51 really performs.

[Corto]

I noticed a lot of "Hollywood" stuff in there. Why can't these film makers just keep things historical?

because the movie is for "ordinary" people and not for "nitpickers" like us here... ;-)

[furbs]

And as hes getting paid by them hes not exactly going to tell us there rubbish is he? :rolleyes:

[furbs]

Plus he never says the CGI flight model is accurate or looks realistic, he just says they have tried hard, which they prob have.

[furbs]

You would think that a guy who flies P-51s pretty regularly would be the most upset about the unrealistic flight model in this 2 minute trailer. Oddly, he does not appear to be very upset. Maybe you P-51 experts should go over to ASB and set him straight about how a P-51 really performs.


Seriously David, i dont for one second think you agree the clip where the P51 preforms a tie-fighter turn is accurate, so why are you trying to argue?

[JG52Uther]

I'm sure there'll be a scene with one or two all American hero's in their P51's shooting down ten naughty Germans... ;)

[David Hayward]

Seriously David, i dont for one second think you agree the clip where the P51 preforms a tie-fighter turn is accurate, so why are you trying to argue?

Are you talking about the scene where the P-51 pulls out of a stall at the top of a loop and then shoots the wing off a 109262? I agree. That ruins the whole movie for me.

[David Hayward]

And as hes getting paid by them hes not exactly going to tell us there rubbish is he? :rolleyes:

Of course not. I'm just wondering why he isn't pissed off that they ignored all his technical advice. :confused:

[ZaltysZ]

Are you talking about the scene where the P-51 pulls out of a stall at the top of a loop and then shoots the wing off a 109262? I agree. That ruins the whole movie for me.

I think this is not the worst part. I suspect they went "lets put as much planes as possible into single frame, as that will look epic" way. :grin: Wing to wing escorts, planes flying inside enemy bomber formation, Me-262 flown like prop planes and so on.

[furbs]

David, nobody is saying the movie is ruined by the CGI, if you read my first post in this thread i said "If the film does justice to the story then ok il prob watch it and try to forget the P51 pulling a tie fighter turn and the rest of the awful CGI"

I can separate the story from the CGI, can you?

Who knows, the movie may still suck, or it might be great! but the CGI is to my mind not as good as it could be, and i think you agree.

[David Hayward]

David, nobody is saying the movie is ruined by the CGI

You didn't bother to read this thread, did you? Go back and read post #3.

[furbs]

Ok most people are not. what about the rest of my post?

[David Hayward]

Ok most people are not. what about the rest of my post?

Too many people in here are.

I think the CGI could probably have been more realistic. But, they're not making a documentary. They're making a movie. Every movie ever produced has made some changes for dramatic effect.

I draw the line when I see things that the average person would realize are completely unrealistic. So far I haven't seen much of that. However, this is only a short clip out of 1 hour of flight scenes.

[furbs]

This is not the general public is it? this is a flight sim forum where we want historical realism and accurate bleedin everything.

so you should adjust what your argument accordingly?

[David Hayward]

This is not the general public is it? this is a flight sim forum where we want historical realism and accurate bleedin everything.

so you should adjust what your argument accordingly?

The movie was not made for aviation geeks. it was made for the general public. Its the geeks who need to adjust their arguments accordingly.

[furbs]

?

[David Hayward]

I thought I was clear. What part of my post did you not understand?

[furbs]

David, do you really think that is possible, i mean...come on....give me a break. :grin:

[David Hayward]

You are right. It is too much to expect people to think before they trash something.

[danjama]

I found Ed Shipley's comments very interesting, thanks for posting.

[Zoom2136]

To much lag for my likeing:rolleyes:

Andthe 50s are porked ;)

[ElAurens]

I'm sure there'll be a scene with one or two all American hero's in their P51's shooting down ten naughty Germans... ;)


One can only hope.

;)

[JG52Uther]

One can only hope.

;)

Yes its been ages since I've thrown something at the TV! ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

You would think that a guy who flies P-51s pretty regularly would be the most upset about the unrealistic flight model in this 2 minute trailer. Oddly, he does not appear to be very upset. Maybe you P-51 experts should go over to ASB and set him straight about how a P-51 really performs.

Not necessarily. I showed the same trailer to another fella who regularly flies a P-51 Mustang here in the UK and at the infamous scene of the P-51 tumbling backwards he sniggered and said "a bit overdramatic, maybe you could do that in a Pitts". It screams Hollywood, that's the problem.

It's actually appalling to know that they spent so much time on research, trying to get things right, and then come out with this cartoonish thingie, but then again it wouldn't be the first time: the Gladiator was supposedly followed by experts on the Roman empire, still the whole thing was riddled with errors. Did it ruin it for me? Hell no! Loved the movie! Still, I know it won't be remembered for its accuracy.

The issue is that whenever we see a pair of wings we think "man this is gotta be accurate, since it talks about a niche subject!", but it's hardly ever the case. On the other hand, the maniacal job done by Spielberg & Co. for Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers and The Pacific probably spoilt us..

Bottomline, it's a shame to see that such a director fell in the cliche' of "we need to make this ridiculously spectacular to attract the crowds"..

Light years away from Dark Blue World, done on a infinitesimal budget part of this CGI monster.

[David Hayward]

I'm sure there'll be a scene with one or two all American hero's in their P51's shooting down ten naughty Germans... ;)

The pilots are black. So it will be one or two Americans who were really born in Kenya shooting down 10 naughty Germans. :rolleyes:

[JG52Uther]

I think while film makers use CGI (understandable these days) we will always have planes doing what the director wants, rather than what planes can really do.
If you want realism,go to an airshow. If you want fantasy escapism, watch these sort of films.
The problem with us as an audience, most of us can tell when its not realistic.Most people who see this sort of film won't know, or care.

[furbs]

Spot on.

David do you fly online in COD yet?

[Codex]

Surely there must be some movie worthy story from their side (NOT Tom Cruise AAAAARGH epic failing as Graf Stauffenberg pleeeeeaaaase!) I say this not in support of the Germans, but merely for the 'please can we have something FRESH FFS!' aspect!

/Rant

There are but you'll never get it from a country that was an Ally during the war.

[MD_Titus]

You would think that a guy who flies P-51s pretty regularly would be the most upset about the unrealistic flight model in this 2 minute trailer. Oddly, he does not appear to be very upset. Maybe you P-51 experts should go over to ASB and set him straight about how a P-51 really performs.

lol!

looks fun, i'll watch it. never seen a real massed bomber raid so how would i know if it's right or wrong. anyone else?

fyi airshows aren't real life aircombat either. saying the film is less realistic is laughable. it's like saying this keyboard is a rubbish cat.

[Codex]

You would think that a guy who flies P-51s pretty regularly would be the most upset about the unrealistic flight model in this 2 minute trailer. Oddly, he does not appear to be very upset. Maybe you P-51 experts should go over to ASB and set him straight about how a P-51 really performs.

And was he consulted on the making of the movie? If so how much of his input actually makes in it there? This is a dramatised movie remember ;) not an historical documentary.

[skouras]

thats one scene that i like to see again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPN4m10BysI


also this one is the same tactic with the movie trailer one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuipnDc7dms&feature=related

[David Hayward]

If so how much of his input actually makes in it there?

Enough to make him happy, apparently.

[Sternjaeger II]

Enough to make him happy, apparently.

that sounds a bit like speculation ;)

[trumps]

Oh dear...!
it reminds me of the intro video of EAW, just with more polys!

Craig

[Bewolf]

thats one scene that i like to see again

also this one is the same tactic with the movie trailer one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuipnDc7dms&feature=related

lol, that 51 dreamed of being a Fokker Dr1 when it was small :D

[Feathered_IV]

Oh dear...!
it reminds me of the intro video of EAW, just with more polys!

Craig

Nailed it.

[JG52Krupi]

It's shocking that a "small fry" producer can make a film like Dark Blue World, apart from the romance in the film (it really wasn't that bad) the only thing that annoyed me was the use of buchons not emils... :( Americans should be banned from making ww2 aircraft movies, the last good film they made was Memphis Belle.

[wildone_106]

My god ILM is the top CGI firm on the planet, if they can't make something good enough for you then no one can..:rolleyes:

[wildone_106]

NICE ONE..I guess the armchair critics will say he's lying now..:rolleyes::confused:

lol, that 51 dreamed of being a Fokker Dr1 when it was small :D

[JG52Krupi]

My god ILM is the top CGI firm on the planet, if they can't make something good enough for you then no one can..:rolleyes:


Probably should have got someone with eyes to look at the visuals before releasing it to the public...

[ARM505]

It's not the quality of the image, it's the way they move. CGI aircraft tend to move far, far too fast and change direction as though they weigh nothing. It immediately breaks the immersion and screams 'I've been made by a computer programmer, as opposed to being a solid thing'.

[David Hayward]

It immediately breaks the immersion and screams 'I've been made by a computer programmer, as opposed to being a solid thing'.

That's probably why they brought in a real P-51 driver as a consultant.

[JG52Krupi]

That's probably why they brought in a real P-51 driver as a consultant.

And clearly did not listen to him...

[David Hayward]

And clearly did not listen to him...

I guess they should have hired you.

[JG52Krupi]

I guess they should have hired you.

No this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

[David Hayward]

Why is that guy better than this guy?

http://www.aero-pix.com/qp09/p51/images/img_015.jpg

http://www.aero-pix.com/oceana05/f86/images/img_012.jpg

http://www.aero-pix.com/qp11/f8/images/img_005.jpg

http://www.aero-pix.com/oceana07/p51f86/images/img_007.jpg

[furbs]

LOL are we back at school?

[David Hayward]

I just wanted to post some of my better photographs. I don't really care who consulted.

[JG52Krupi]

Tbf there is only one maneuver in the clip that is ridiculous... but I get a feeling there will be more.

[furbs]

Don't forget the ship killing 50 cals :)

[JG52Krupi]

Don't forget the ship killing 50 cals :)

lol i almost cried when i saw that

[Strike]

Gah, actually the only recent video I thought had "believeable" air combat scenes was actually The Red Baron. It had some wicked manouvers I think would be difficult to pull off, but it also featured way more realistic parts than hollywoodized... Noone on earth can turn a mustang like he did in that movie :p noone. I can't even do that with my 800gram RC electric mustang. No sir.

[David Hayward]

Noone on earth can turn a mustang like he did in that movie :p noone. I can't even do that with my 800gram RC electric mustang. No sir.

It wasn't a turn. He was stalling at the top of a loop.

[Sternjaeger II]

It wasn't a turn. He was stalling at the top of a loop.

yeah right... :rolleyes:

you might have heard of torque at some point in your life, well mustangs come with buckets of it: at the top of a loop a Mustang (christ, even a T-6!) will tend to torque itself out of the upside down position, that tumble on top is mere sci-fi, unless you chopped your throttle on the way up, but then just a moron would do it, because you'd never reach the top, and surely you'd have enough momentum to make a mess of that. The mustang is an energy fighter, not an Extra 300..

[David Hayward]

yeah right... :rolleyes:

you might have heard of torque at some point in your life, well mustangs come with buckets of it: at the top of a loop a Mustang (christ, even a T-6!) will tend to torque itself out of the upside down position, that tumble on top is mere sci-fi, unless you chopped your throttle on the way up, but then just a moron would do it, because you'd never reach the top, and surely you'd have enough momentum to make a mess of that. The mustang is an energy fighter, not an Extra 300..

You should go over the airshowbuzz and let that Mustang driver know where he got it wrong.

[Sternjaeger II]

You should go over the airshowbuzz and let that Mustang driver know where he got it wrong.

I don't need that David, thank you. You see, you're so narrow minded you think that any pilot out there that flies a warbird is a god, well you're very, very wrong. Some of them are good, some simply aren't, some other just like boasting improbable stuff just because, like you and me, are human beings.

NO warbird operator would ever attempt such manoeuvre, simply because it's beyond the edge of flight envelope, and frankly stupid, especially if you're flying a machine worth a couple of million dollars, which has a very temperamental torque, a laminar flow wing and a stall with no warning.

As a pilot of moderate experience and that also flies on warbirds, I can tell you that, again in my humble opinion and the one of other warbird operators (who commented on the trailer we watched together), that tumble is really unlikely to happen on a Mustang, and even if it did, it's probably cos the pilot screwed up big time: it's not a manoeuvre, it's a mistake.

Then again, feel free to believe in your reality.

[David Hayward]

I don't need that David, thank you. You see, you're so narrow minded you think that any pilot out there that flies a warbird is a god,

I don't think he's a god. I do think he knows more about what a 51 can do than do you.

[David Hayward]

that tumble is really unlikely to happen on a Mustang, and even if it did, it's probably cos the pilot screwed up big time: it's not a manoeuvre, it's a mistake.


Or maybe it's a really desperate pilot hanging it out on the edge because he's got a really big pair?

I do find it humorous that your expert agrees that it could possibly happen, but I'm the one in the alternative reality...

[Sternjaeger II]

I don't think he's a god. I do think he knows more about what a 51 can do than do you.

ok David, you're right :rolleyes:

[Sternjaeger II]

Or maybe it's a really desperate pilot hanging it out on the edge because he's got a really big pair?

I do find it humorous that your expert agrees that it could possibly happen, but I'm the one in the alternative reality...

No, the "big balls factor" is another silly badge that pilots like to decorate themselves with, but when they tell you these stories they know (and other pilots know) that they screwed up in the beginning, it's called human error, it happens and sometimes it claims the lives of pilots. In my airfield life I have met pilots of any kind: anybody can be a pilot, all you have to do is paying for flying lessons, being a good pilot is not something all can achieve.

I can hear a ww2 vet talking about this unlikely manoeuvre and be respectfuk to the man, smiling and listening for another hour, but when a modern warbird operator talks about the possibility of this kinda manoeuvre, my answer normally is "why don't you go up there and show us?", to which very few follow through. And believe me, sometimes it happened that the pilot went up there and showed us something that let us with our jaws scraping the hangar floor, but this is definitely a load of baloney.

My experts don't agree, finding it really unlikely is a sarcastic expression, I'm sure you heard of sarcasm. I am motivating the reasons why that is unlikely to happen, you at the contrary, are just opening your big mouth and blurting out nonsense, mainly intended to provoke a reaction of other members who, unlike you, also do contribute fruitfully to this space.

[David Hayward]

you at the contrary, are just opening your big mouth and blurting out nonsense

Actually, I haven't said anything. I have no idea whether it could happen, and neither do you.

[Strike]

WOw seriously guys, start your own PM(s) fight ;)

You guys always go at eachother, like two dungbeetles fighting over some dung :P


Oh and don't drag me into this :P

On topic, either way if it were a stall or whatever it's too hollywood. That means it happens too fast, at too short distance. It's like a car would do a U-turn with the handbrake... Plane looses speed too fast, turns too fast, and fires without airspeed even. He would not be able to keep his nose up with that low airspeed so IRL it would have to be done in a vertical manner... Only did this once in IL-2, in a P-38 ;) Got a zero after doing a stall-turn coming straight at him again. I totally won that day :D

[JG52Uther]

Any news on the new Dambusters film?
Obviously we won't mention the dog...

[Sternjaeger II]

Actually, I haven't said anything. I have no idea whether it could happen, and neither do you.

I surely have more than an idea on whether this could happen or not, while you, being aeronautically ignorant, don't.

[Sternjaeger II]

WOw seriously guys, start your own PM(s) fight ;)

You guys always go at eachother, like two dungbeetles fighting over some dung :P


Oh and don't drag me into this :P

On topic, either way if it were a stall or whatever it's too hollywood. That means it happens too fast, at too short distance. It's like a car would do a U-turn with the handbrake... Plane looses speed too fast, turns too fast, and fires without airspeed even. He would not be able to keep his nose up with that low airspeed so IRL it would have to be done in a vertical manner... Only did this once in IL-2, in a P-38 ;) Got a zero after doing a stall-turn coming straight at him again. I totally won that day :D

I tried to PM David, but his attitude is the same than on the forum, he just loves doing it. I don't even know why I bother, all I can hope for is that he manages to get himself banned soon.

As for the topic, yes well, a P-38, having two engines with propellers rotating in opposite directions, is more likely to contrast torque in such a situation and tumble backwards. Still, it would be a hair raising, edge of the envelope, "how the hell did I get myself into this?!" situation.

[David Hayward]

I surely have more than an idea on whether this could happen or not, while you, being aeronautically ignorant, don't.

Wake me when you find an expert who can give you a definitive "no". Right now your expert appears to think it's possible.

[Sternjaeger II]

Wake me when you find an expert who can give you a definitive "no". Right now your expert appears to think it's possible.

Where did u read this exactly? :confused:

[David Hayward]

even if it did, it's probably cos the pilot screwed up big time

If your boy doesn't think it's possible, why even mention how it could have happened?

[baronWastelan]

It's my fault, he crawled up my leg, then into my rectum, and I excreted him back out, and now he is right back here posting his "contributions".

I should have flushed faster.

[Lololopoulos]

David Hayward likes to get into arguments with everybody in this forum. I still remember glancing through the threads we had about the landscape color, and he was defending his position single-handedly against everybody else by scrutinizing every single post and look for every possible minute detail he could attack on. hahahah a true forum "hero'. You have my admiration, good sir. :grin:

[David Hayward]

David Hayward likes to get into arguments with everybody in this forum. I still remember glancing through the threads we had about the landscape color, and he was defending his position single-handedly against everybody else by scrutinizing every single post and look for every possible minute detail he could attack on. hahahah a true forum "hero'. You have my admiration, good sir. :grin:

My favorite part of that argument was when someone posted a modded CoD image with the trees just slightly darker. People were falling over themselves to post how great it looked. The trees were slightly darker and suddenly the landscape went from "cartoon" to "great". It was funny as hell.

BTW, I wasn't alone, and I didn't scrutinize every post. It wasn't necessary. All you need to do is post a WoPuke screenshot and you win a color argument every time.

[Jatta Raso]

David Hayward likes to get into arguments with everybody in this forum. I still remember glancing through the threads we had about the landscape color, and he was defending his position single-handedly against everybody else by scrutinizing every single post and look for every possible minute detail he could attack on. hahahah a true forum "hero'. You have my admiration, good sir. :grin:

haha also remember that one, it was a perfect 'introduce yourself'. TBH i'm starting to doubt if this guy actually even has the game or is into sims...

[David Hayward]

TBH i'm starting to doubt if this guy actually even has the game or is into sims...

I often wonder the same thing about the people who relentlessly whine about this game.

[Jatta Raso]

My favorite part of that argument was when someone posted a modded CoD image with the trees just slightly darker. People were falling over themselves to post how great it looked. The trees were slightly darker and suddenly the landscape went from "cartoon" to "great". It was funny as hell.

funny as hell uh?...

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4864/pjaerial07090701.jpg

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3050/pjaerial07090701light.jpg

anyone can tell any difference? it's just 10% lighten referring to the real thing, just on trees; no global filter or anything, i PS it myself.

David, ever heard about something called 'details'? no you don't seem to... how can you get along without that? you can't. now how's that for some fun?:rolleyes:

[Lololopoulos]

lol i love it how i promptly diverted the course of this thread, once i saw that the material related to the red tails and the aerodynamics behind it are running low and the arguments are getting dry.
lololololololol
:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

let's just go with it and see where it takes us.

[Jatta Raso]

lol we're getting back to square one

[Defender]

yay, I've missed these forums. :rolleyes:

Looks fine to me, god forbid anyone makes a movie about anything WWII related. The film releases in Jan 2012, and I can say for certain that most of those Special FX shots aren't final, the sound design has been done by the movie trailer people with stock SFX, so those will also change in the final mix.
For action and pace, some of the scenes may have been sped up slightly time wise so they could fit the shot into the rhythm of the trailer making the FM look a little strange.

A 2 hour movie will never fully capture 100% of the details of WWII, that should be assumed first off. Band of Brothers did a pretty good job telling 0.0001% of Easy company of the 101st, and that was a 10 hour mini series.

My final thought on the matter is; this film could inspire those who have no idea who the "Red Tails" are to pick up a book and read all about them. Think of it as a catalyst agent to a long road to becoming a "know it all" negatron like some people.

[JG52Krupi]

My favorite part of that argument was when someone posted a modded CoD image with the trees just slightly darker. People were falling over themselves to post how great it looked. The trees were slightly darker and suddenly the landscape went from "cartoon" to "great". It was funny as hell.

BTW, I wasn't alone, and I didn't scrutinize every post. It wasn't necessary. All you need to do is post a WoPuke screenshot and you win a color argument every time.

My favourite part us how they have now gone to great lengths to implement the colours you mock in your post lmao

[Katkatman]

since when did P-51s have thrust vectoring?

:rolleyes:

Allready seen a "historical" reconstitution while an US P-51 veteran pilote told to the interviewer that he shot down a Me 262 like that. Propaganda and Whisky would made 20 times US Aces per week ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

Allready seen a "historical" reconstitution while an US P-51 veteran pilote told to the interviewer that he shot down a Me 262 like that. Propaganda and Whisky would made 20 times US Aces per week ;)

sssh, make sure David doesn't hear you saying that, he reckons that if a pilot says it can be done, then it actually can ;)

[Kongo-Otto]

Any news on the new Dambusters film?
Obviously we won't mention the dog...

As the Project isn't mentioned in the ImdB.com anymore, ist pretty sure that the Dambusters remake has been cancelled.

[David Hayward]

My favourite part us how they have now gone to great lengths to implement the colours you mock in your post lmao

I didn't mock the colors, I mocked the people who thought it was a HUGE improvement. It was a minor improvement.

[Jatta Raso]

I didn't mock the colors, I mocked the people who thought it was a HUGE improvement. It was a minor improvement.

lol even for a troll you're a bad one. i've seen smart trolls, funny trolls, polite trolls, but for that you would need at least some little wit. that you clearly don't have. you just have the disjointed dyslexic diarrhea you fart every now and then. this is how you get your kicks, which is pathetic.

[Tvrdi]

I noticed a lot of "Hollywood" stuff in there. Why can't these film makers just keep things historical?

because most folks doesnt care about historical accuracy and aviation as we do....nor they are so deep into the subject (most of my friends couldnt tell the difference between bf109 and FW190)...then again, movie is for entertainment...documentaries are about history

[skouras]

agree

[Kongo-Otto]

because most folks doesnt care about historical accuracy and aviation as we do....nor they are so deep into the subject (most of my friends couldnt tell the difference between bf109 and FW190)...then again, movie is for entertainment...documentaries are about history

That's correct, but there have been Movies in the past, which had entertainment and a historical base, not every WW1 or WW2 movie was crap like Pearl Harbor or U-571 or the Red Baron.

[ZaltysZ]

because most folks doesnt care about historical accuracy and aviation as we do....nor they are so deep into the subject (most of my friends couldnt tell the difference between bf109 and FW190)...then again, movie is for entertainment...documentaries are about history

They do care about accuracy. Most people watching historical movie want it to be historical, however they lack the knowledge for seeing inaccuracies. Historical movie needs to be accurate and have 'wow' moments. Unfortunately, it is way easier to do 'wow' without sticking to accuracy, so industry often forgets about it, because not many will notice that anyway.

Entertainment value is good thing, but if unreal things are pressed as real too hard, you end up with people thinking that every car explodes on crash ;-)

[Feathered_IV]

Having watched the trailer through a few times, I think this movie will be just more flag waving war-porn.

[Defender]

Having watched the trailer through a few times, I think this movie will be just more flag waving war-porn.

It was a trailer, trailers are never proper representations of a final film. Besides, they don't call them the "greatest generation" for nothing, so why not allow it some flag waving "war porn" wiggle room :cool:.

You watch Black Hawk Down or Band of Brothers, you could say the same thing (flag waving war porn). Ultimately it's about people and the unimaginable circumstances they have to face). Chalk up the fact the racial card is a MASSIVE factor in this film. It's a great story "based on true events".

I am curious to know how so many can bad mouth an effort to bring WWII to the mainstream simply watching a 2.5 minute trailer. If the film was released and they called P51's "Kittyhawks" then, well, you'd have an argument. Not from an "action" oriented movie trailer.

[VF101-jay]

I had read that Lucas started working toward this movie way back in the early 80's, if that is true I would have to assume this was an important project for him. With that in mind I will try to keep an open mind going into the theater to see this movie. My hope is that the somewhat unrealistic feel present in the trailer flight scenes was caused by the editing, I got the impression that spots may have been sped up to make the action seem more hectic. At this point I am thrilled to get any WW2 aviation movie, though I am glad that the one where Tom Cruise was going to play an American pilot that saved the British in his remake of the Battle of Britain was cancelled...that could have started a new war! LOL.

[Sternjaeger II]

this movie will be also used as propaganda for a certain racial group to join the Army..

Btw I would have expected Steven Spielberg to work on this, he was the one with the dad flying in B-25s in the Pacific, and one of his very first amateur movies he made when he was a child was done at his dad's base after the war.

[_RAAF_Mini]

Just to say i am not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread yet or not but that scene some of you are complaining about where the Mustang loops onto the 262 actually happend.

The pilot was Roscoe Brown from the flight which later earned the title The Longest Escort of The War in which the B-17s the flight was covering came under attack from 262's.
Brown developed his own version of the Split S in which instead of rolling straight down he would first climb to increase his speed in the dive in order to catch 262, at point of stalling he would either flip the plane or pitch down to start the dive.

He successfully shot down this 262.

Here is the story from Discoverys "Dogfights" told by the actual pilot. Thankfully the part of the story we need is right at the beginning of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1vRcOZdWR8&NR=1

Cheers

S!
Mini

[Sternjaeger II]

nope, that's something completely different.

In the movie you see this plane at the brink of stall, tumbling backwards and shooting as it happens, which kinda defies a couple of laws of physics.

[Defender]

nope, that's something completely different.

In the movie you see this plane at the brink of stall, tumbling backwards and shooting as it happens, which kinda defies a couple of laws of physics.

That shot was spead up about 27% so they could fit it in so it looks a little weird. It's also far from a "final shot" as most CG elements get completed in the last few weeks before "picture lock" (with a January release date, that's pretty far away).

If anything, at least the rudder position is in an accurate spot.
;-)

[_RAAF_Mini]

I can only imagine Sterjaeger that the shot was filmed this way for theatrical purposes but it is still a possibility.

[Sternjaeger II]

I can only imagine Sterjaeger that the shot was filmed this way for theatrical purposes but it is still a possibility.

yeah, it's quite a "only in Hollywood" shot, and as debated before, it's very very unlikely that a tumble like this would be a controlled manoeuvre.

[catchmarek]

Sorry if it's been posted before:

Red Tails: Trailer 2 (http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi3239156761/)

You gotta love the Su-37 at 1.14, and the guy in the next scene asking: "How did he do that?". :-D

[Anvilfolk]

Isn't the steam engine attack a bit overdone? None of the original videos I've seen does that. Lots of smoke pops up, and that's that. Pressure's gone. No need to make it explode, lift into the air, go around the world a couple of times and all that!

See, from watching all the movies, I thought that if you bumped a car in America, or even farted in one, it would just blow up! Turns out it's not true - who knew?

It's still true for the Zero though...

Ah well, if it fascinates people and they become interested in flying this, it would be great. It would be even greater if IL-2's name was somehow attached to the film. It would bring such an influx of people! I might actually shoot down someone for a change :grin:

[combatdudePL]

They does blow up ! :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT0J0rcJTLo

[TheSwede]

Well we all agree on the Hollywoodish factor.
But anyhow, we don't see these kind of movies being done anymore so lets just be grateful. ;)

I do find it amusing that Cuba Gooding has been "promoted" in this film compared to the original Tuskeegee Airmen. ;)
I would have love to see him as Col Benjamin O Davis though.

Looking forward to it but without the "realistic attitude".

//Simon

[wildone_106]

Its a real maneuver, I saw an episode of Dogfights where the actual airman was talking about it. Just because you cant do it in Clod doesn't mean its not possible:grin: This is gonna be an epic movie I cant wait.


That shot was spead up about 27% so they could fit it in so it looks a little weird. It's also far from a "final shot" as most CG elements get completed in the last few weeks before "picture lock" (with a January release date, that's pretty far away).

If anything, at least the rudder position is in an accurate spot.
;-)

[Ze-Jamz]

Yep..

Will be Hollywood for sure but will still be watched by me...looking forward to it

[Sternjaeger II]

Its a real maneuver, I saw an episode of Dogfights where the actual airman was talking about it. Just because you cant do it in Clod doesn't mean its not possible:grin: This is gonna be an epic movie I cant wait.

oh puh-lease, not again :rolleyes:

[TheSwede]

oh puh-lease, not again :rolleyes:

The comical thing is that he uses Dogfights as a source.........
Thats just scary wildone_106..

[ParaB]

Any movie where Mustangs blow up the Bismarck is epic by definition. I just hope they include the scene where they blow up that dam at night.

[TheSwede]

Any movie where Mustangs blow up the Bismarck is epic by definition. I just hope they include the scene where they blow up that dam at night.

Did you know that it was a Mustang pilot that captured the German submarine with the Enigma machine on it?! It went down strafing with the Tiger killing .50cals and then German crew surrendered at once. In the following fly-by the pilot opened the canopy and caught the Enigma machine one handed!

The creators of Captain America told me this!



;)

[Ze-Jamz]

Did you know that it was a Mustang pilot that captured the German submarine with the Enigma machine on it?! It went down strafing with the Tiger killing .50cals and then German crew surrendered at once. In the following fly-by the pilot opened the canopy and caught the Enigma machine one handed!

The creators of Captain America told me this!



;)

Wow, i never knew that...

What a man!

[Skoshi Tiger]

Wow, i never knew that...

What a man!

And then I got back to base and drank 10 pints of beer and .......

On no! I'm still bound by the Official Secrets Act! It wasn't really me!

[ElAurens]

Don't believe a word of it.

It was done with the P40 Q prototype.

Trust me.

[Ventura]

It's a trailer. (and very well said Hiro) And this is a film, not a flight sim! :) hehe

Hollywood and other Major Film Studios (LucasFilm included) makes movies to cater towards the general audience.

Using the statistics they gather, (numerous is an understatement) Each director has a formula whenever they try to create a movie. As much as we would like to think otherwise, totally factual based history can be rather dry and bland. Drama is needed because conversations, even confrontations can be ...for lack of a better word, boring. (Though now we have reality based TV shows to show each and every one of us how to be a 'drama queen', lol!)

The advantage Lucasfilm has is that it is a self-sufficient entity seperate from Hollywood so that his studio has total say in the product. He did this after his incredible success with 'SW' so that he would never have to depend on backers and Studios when creating his sequels/prequels. And as an Artist, he is constantly refining each piece with each re-lease.

How much of a full hand does he have in "Red Tails"? I'm not too sure. Unlike the 'SW' series, he's probably playing more of a supervising role and delegating some freedom to those he assigned to make the film. Not being 'his baby', he is very aware of how the movie needs to be in order to have general acceptance with the public. So be aware that when things don't look correct, out of perpective, or too close together, etc., there is a specific reason for it being that way as well.

Film is the art of storytelling condensed into a 2 hour (or less) movie.

...and hellyeah! I'm looking forward to seeing this one!!

(Have you seen the theatrical release poster??!!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Red_Tails_Poster.jpg

BTW, it's just a trailer. Still 4 1/2 months till it's release, and a lot can happen behind those closed doors in Skywalker Ranch!

[grunge]

At 2:14 WTF? That's gonna be another LOL film...Mustangs go afte Me262 LOL GG! :D

[ElAurens]

Several 262s were indeed shot down by P 51s and not all of them on landing approach, also Kohzedub bagged one with an La7, which is a lot slower than a 51 in the real world.

Don't let the performance of these aircraft in IL2 blind you, oh and the first time I shot down a 262 online I was in a Brewster...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I had to laugh watching the video when it said 'based on true events'..

So was that POS Pearl Harbor movie with Ben Assflick

This hyper PC correctness world of ours is re-writing history faster than we can keep up with it.. And not just with WWII events.. Next time your at a yard sale.. by the old history books and save them in a safe place.. They will be worth something someday if not to you but your children.

[Jaws2002]

Feels like I'm flying my grand father's Buick

They'll turn this film into a plane whining like some of the forums I know.:lol: