customer satisfaction poll

[Sternjaeger II]

ok, this is just a survey, I only want to understand the numbers here, cos honestly the whole debate is getting sterile if we don't know what people think.

[adonys]

I don't see any pool, mate.

[MadTommy]

Oh god..we don't know what people think. every other post of these forums is on this bloody subject..

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Animals/Dogs/Dog_and_bone.gif

[bongodriver]

it's a bit redundant, of course everyone would like regular updates, a poll is pointless, it should be more whether we 'need' regular updates.

[Sternjaeger II]

it's a bit redundant, of course everyone would like regular updates, a poll is pointless, it should be more whether we 'need' regular updates.

as a good aviator you should know that being redundant is never redundant ;)

My intention is to make the voice of many an official thing, just to deliver a message to our beloved devs...





... and then paste a country music video on it, for the sake of good spirits ;)

[Allons!]

Oh my - this poll is pretty useless because we dont discuss the general topic of to be informed about patch progress but the way how Luthier et.al. do this actually. Grüße, Allons! - und halten Sie Funkdisziplin

[Sternjaeger II]

Oh god.. every other post of these forums is on this bloody subject..

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Animals/Dogs/Dog_and_bone.gif

it's a sign of the times..

[bongodriver]

that old clichet....

[Sternjaeger II]

Oh my - this poll is pretty useless because we dont discuss the general topic of to be informed about patch progress but the way how Luthier et.al. do this actually. Grüße, Allons! - und halten Sie Funkdisziplin

"in a regular and effective way" ;)

[bongodriver]

as a good aviator you should know that being redundant is never redundant ;)

My intention is to make the voice of many an official thing, just to deliver a message to our beloved devs...





... and then paste a country music video on it, for the sake of good spirits ;)

Oddly enough I'm off to CAE at burgess hill to do my OPC in about an hours time, it makes me think of a good analogy for the apparent 'voice' effect you will be trying to create, it's like the master caution light....it will keep flashing away but all we do is push it to make the annoying light stop while we 'deal' with the problem we already know about, innevitably it comes back but we always have that finger at the ready.

[Sternjaeger II]

Oddly enough I'm off to CAE at burgess hill to do my OPC in about an hours time, it makes me think of a good analogy for the apparent 'voice' effect you will be trying to create, it's like the master caution light....it will keep flashing away but all we do is push it to make the annoying light stop while we 'deal' with the problem we already know about, innevitably it comes back but we always have that finger at the ready.

true, but would you do without your master caution lights though? ;)

[bongodriver]

true, but would you do without your master caution lights though? ;)

Thats the thing....it's a redundant system, there is a specific warning for every problem, but the master caution is just a generic attention getting device....thats why it can be cancelled, but yes in essence I have just argued myself into a corner...it's there to stop us 'dumb' pilots forgetting were in trouble.

[Sternjaeger II]

Thats the thing....it's a redundant system, there is a specific warning for every problem, but the master caution is just a generic attention getting device....thats why it can be cancelled, but yes in essence I have just argued myself into a corner...it's there to stop us 'dumb' pilots forgetting were in trouble.

lol that's ok man, we're all dumb pilots, the smart ones are all in the hangar talking gossip ;)

[Robert]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23532


Hi everyone,

We've been hard at work on a whole bunch of stuff here. Quicker fixes are now a thing of the past; we're working on larger more complex stuff and so patches, updates and improvements will be coming at a slower pace.

Our next BETA patch is tentatively scheduled for two weeks from now for Friday the 17th, and the release version of it is scheduled for the Friday after that, June 24th.

The next patch will contain:

* Improved streamlined multiplayer GUI
* Other multiplayer improvements - more stability, all plane settings like convergence and paintscheme working at all times, less rare bugs, etc.
* Various graphical improvements. The distant clouds are finally back - i.e. the flat representations of clouds you saw on beta screenshots with pretty sunlit borders. Finally fixed the landscape stripes bug, etc.
* Improvements to FM and DM and various cockpit systems, as usual - long list there.
* AI improvements, including at least the majority, if not all, of the order system working.
* A new warship!

Other things that are in the pipeline:

* Sound. This is probably the biggest issue we're facing. We're taking a very drastic approach to the issue and pretty much redoing our sound from scratch. This means you won't see the new sound for a few more months.
* FPS. The final remaining performance issues, which fortunately are comparatively minor, lie very deep in the engine, and require us to do a significant amount of work. Probably at least 2 months of it.
* Online stability, more anti-cheating controls, and server and aircraft SDK - also a few months out. Dedicated Server SDK and documentation is probably going to be done the quickest.

NOTE: this isn't an exhaustive list, but rather the main bullet points.

So stay tuned for more patch info next week. I'll try to do more regular weekly Friday updates from now on.
Edit/Delete Message



So in my opinion SOUND, FPS, and Online Stability are the next foundational problems to be tackled within the game. Addressing other issues without ensuring these mentioned are implemented correctly would be like adding window dressings to a house whose foundation is faulty. Discussing the new problems would be foolish and time wasting. If significant progress isn't made or if progress that most of us wouldn't understand is attained, what good would talking about it be? A waste of time IMO.

I guess I don't understand what you folks want as far as a future road map and progress updates. If there's nothing new to report do you really think this crowd is going to sit down for, "There's no new news folks?" I doubt it.

Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't. I guess for me, this is enough for now. I'd expect updates closer to when these things are finalized or they've reached a development plateau. As he wrote: "Quicker fixes are now a thing of the past; we're working on larger more complex stuff and so patches, updates and improvements will be coming at a slower pace."



If it matters. I abstained from voting.

[robtek]

This poll, as it is worded, isn't worth the space it blocks on the ram / HD!!

[Sternjaeger II]

This poll, as it is worded, isn't worth the space it blocks on the ram / HD!!

Feel free to start your own, uh and thank you for the precious feedback.

[Sternjaeger II]

If it matters. I abstained from voting.

Of course it matters, everyone's opinion does. You illustrated valid points, but again the status of things is just speculation we can do.

All I'm asking is whether people would like to be informed or not on the development of things for a sim that we obviously all love.

[bongodriver]

It won't carry any real weight though, everyone 'will' by default want regular updates, it's why we come to forums, we want to read something interesting, and an update will be perfect, the poll should really differenciate whether people feel we need to be updated or not, then the devs might pay attention if a clear majority say so.

[Sternjaeger II]

It won't carry any real weight though, everyone 'will' by default want regular updates, it's why we come to forums, we want to read something interesting, and an update will be perfect, the poll should really differenciate whether people feel we need to be updated or not, then the devs might pay attention if a clear majority say so.

Bongo, it's not a matter of "need", "needing" is something that is too often connected to "demanding". We're not junkies, we don't "need" our dose of news/updates, we would like to be updated, like we have been until a few weeks ago. It's nothing unreasonable, it's not like I asked for money back, or a live webcam in Maddox Games office to check if they're working or slacking ;)

[Robert]

Of course it matters, everyone's opinion does. You illustrated valid points, but again the status of things is just speculation we can do.

All I'm asking is whether people would like to be informed or not on the development of things for a sim that we obviously all love.


I don't see an option in the poll for me. If I'm right and these current issues from the June 3rd update are fundamental, then I don't see another update coming until closer to beta release. I'm perfectly fine with that, given future updates would progress at the speed needed of future repairs/fixes et al.

So to me these updates ARE timely and I'm getting enough information. I feel I'm informed enough and don't need a 'weekly update'. I'm not sure I see an option for that. I'm personally satisfied with the updates. ATM.

[David Hayward]

Of course it matters, everyone's opinion does.

That's not even close to being true. The only opinions which matter are those of the people on the dev team.

[Sternjaeger II]

I don't see an option in the poll for me. If I'm right and these current issues from the June 3rd update are fundamental, then I don't see another update coming until closer to beta release. I'm perfectly fine with that, given future updates would progress at the speed needed of future repairs/fixes et al.

So to me these updates ARE timely and I'm getting enough information so I already am getting my fill of development updates and feel I'm informed enough. I'm not sure I see an option for that.

Robert, I understand your point, my question though is whether you like or not to be informed in a regular and effective way , nothing more, nothing less.

I'm trying to do a step by step assessing of the situation here, as you can see there are at least 5 people that don't want to be updated regularly.

[Sternjaeger II]

That's not even close to being true. The only opinions which matter are those of the people on the dev team.

thanks for your opinion on the matter. Why don't you try and post a poll with such a statement and see where that one goes :rolleyes:

[ATAG_Dutch]

thanks for your opinion on the matter.

:grin:

[David Hayward]

thanks for your opinion on the matter. Why don't you try and post a poll with such a statement and see where that one goes :rolleyes:

What difference would another poll make?

[Robert]

Robert, I understand your point, my question though is whether you like or not to be informed in a regular and effective way , nothing more, nothing less.

I'm trying to do a step by step assessing of the situation here, as you can see there are at least 5 people that don't want to be updated regularly.


So then I'd obviously vote yes, because I WANT updates in a regular manner. I'm just not sure if updates can be done on a regular basis when the road map is so fluid ATM. One man's regular interval. may be anothers desert of information.


Being that I'm satisfied with the updates for now, and knowing many aren't, I don't think that's how the poll would be perceived. I think many will use it as a 'war cry' to muster up support and try to strong arm information or updates, when for me the regularity (or lack thereof) is fine with me.

I want updates. I'm fine with the way they are coming out. I don't think that's how the poll reads.



Say you get 100 yeahs.... 5 nays.... and 1 maybe. That says 100 want information. Fine. We all do. But it doesn't say that out of 100 there may be 50 who are satisfied with update progress. It CAN be construed to mean that 100 people want regular updates and all 100 think you're not doing a good job of it. That's why I abstained.

[philip.ed]

What difference would another poll make?

Well, it would display how the rest of the community feels about your opinion.

[David Hayward]

Well, it would display how the rest of the community feels about your opinion.

Do you think that would change anything?

[catito14]

We are trying to understand the "Russian idiosyncrasy" with our "west idiosyncrasy", apparently in Russia, they do not develop the informational aspect to their customers, preferring to use those energies in other areas. So I THINK, that we even publish hundreds of polls and publish hundreds of posts claiming for more information or contact with us, they will not listen to us, simply because it is their way of thinking and working

[Sternjaeger II]

So then I'd obviously vote yes, because I WANT updates in a regular manner. I'm just not sure if updates can be done on a regular basis when the road map is so fluid ATM. One man's regular interval. may be anothers desert of information.


Being that I'm satisfied with the updates for now, and knowing many aren't, I don't think that's how the poll would be perceived. I think many will use it as a 'war cry' to muster up support and try to strong arm information or updates, when for me the regularity (or lack thereof) is fine with me.

I want updates. I'm fine with the way they are coming out. I don't think that's how the poll reads.



Say you get 100 yeahs.... 5 nays.... and 1 maybe. That says 100 want information. Fine. We all do. But it doesn't say that out of 100 there may be 50 who are satisfied with update progress. It CAN be construed to mean that 100 people want regular updates and all 100 think you're not doing a good job of it. That's why I abstained.

it has been fairly balanced so far, apart for some agitators. I would like to stress on the fact that this is not a protest or a war cry, it's just... a poll?

You already expressed your opinion by non voting, which is a valid option, I would have selected "I'm not sure", but then again I do understand your concerns. All I'm trying to do here again is trying to see how much it really matters to the community to be regularly updated on what's going on, according to some our opinion doesn't even matter, go figure!

[furbs]

David, If what we say makes no difference, do you understand that what ever you say makes no difference to what we do or say?

So, unless the mods say we have to stop or the forum is shut down, nothing is going to change, we will keep asking and complaining and you will keep moaning and complaining about us.

this is all we have. :)

[philip.ed]

Do you think that would change anything?

Of course not!

But you're opinion that nothing people say will make any difference is completely flawed (here we go again...):

-Oleg: here's some development shots. RAF clothing and equipment is WIP etc
-Me (and others): ___ is wrongly modelled, it should be like______
-Oleg: PM sent

Queue e-mails being sent and a bunch of research being sent Oleg's way as well. In fact, a lot of what the community says will have an effect, and the team has a history of using a lot of what the community says (and even what the community does) effectively.
Please, David, do some research before posting statements which have no credibility whatsoever.

Anyway, see Luthier's quote in Furb's signature, as it really does express all we need to know.

[David Hayward]

David, If what we say makes no difference, do you understand that what ever you say makes no difference to what we do or say?



That is painfully obvious.



So, unless the mods say we have to stop or the forum is shut down, nothing is going to change, we will keep asking and complaining and you will keep moaning and complaining about us.

this is all we have. :)

See above.

[David Hayward]

Of course not!

But you're opinion that nothing people say will make any difference is completely flawed (here we go again...):

-Oleg: here's some development shots. RAF clothing and equipment is WIP etc
-Me (and others): ___ is wrongly modelled, it should be like______
-Oleg: PM sent

Queue e-mails being sent and a bunch of research being sent Oleg's way as well. In fact, a lot of what the community says will have an effect, and the team has a history of using a lot of what the community says (and even what the community does) effectively.
Please, David, do some research before posting statements which have no credibility whatsoever.

Helping with research is not even close to being the same as helping fix bugs.

Oh, and polls about more progress reports do absolutely nothing to help fix bugs.

[philip.ed]

Of course it doesn't help to fix bugs! But the communities point of view/opinions/knowledge helps to fine-tune the product. And a lot of areas need considerable fine-tuning.

[David Hayward]

Of course it doesn't help to fix bugs! But the communities point of view/opinions/knowledge helps to fine-tune the product. And a lot of areas need considerable fine-tuning.

The devs don't seem to share your views on that.

[furbs]

Check my sig David.

[David Hayward]

Check my sig David.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about polls asking if you want more progress info from the devs. Or people posting that Luthier doesn't respect us. Or people regularly announcing that they predicted that the game would have problems. Do you think that's what he meant?

[furbs]

I think it means exactly what it says, where as what you wrote is putting words in his mouth.

Anyway come on our TS 2 and lets have a chat.

[Robert]

it has been fairly balanced so far, apart for some agitators. I would like to stress on the fact that this is not a protest or a war cry, it's just... a poll?

You already expressed your opinion by non voting, which is a valid option, I would have selected "I'm not sure", but then again I do understand your concerns. All I'm trying to do here again is trying to see how much it really matters to the community to be regularly updated on what's going on, according to some our opinion doesn't even matter, go figure!


Naah. Our opinions matter. I do think some opinions have been worn out by abuse and that's a reflection on poor communication by many parties on this forum - me included at times.


This reminds me of a surgical procedure. The patient has done his part by physically preparing for surgery. The surgeons and staff have done what they can during the operation. Unfortunately there have been complications and even though the doctors are doing as much as they can, progress reports are moot because there hasn't been enough progress since the set back to inform the patient's family. It's tough waiting during that time.

[David Hayward]

where as what you wrote is putting words in his mouth.


I'm not the one quoting him in an attempt to justify the constant whining on this board.

[Tree_UK]

I think the poll just like the petition speaks for itself, the Haywards are very much a minority.

[furbs]

Its still a quote, and it was in direct response to people moaning about members on this forum who were "whiners and people who criticize"

Coming for a chat?

[Tree_UK]

Its still a quote, and it was in direct response to people moaning about members on this forum who were "whiners and people who criticize"

Coming for a chat?

Furbs, you cannot reason with the unreasonable.

[David Hayward]

Coming for a chat?

There's nothing to chat about. The whining isn't going to stop until they start banning people. Nothing we chat about is going to change that.

[LoBiSoMeM]

My multicrew support in dogfight servers is broken in UP3.0.

Can I create a topic here to whinne too? I want better feedback!

[furbs]

Of course you can.

[furbs]

There's nothing to chat about. The whining isn't going to stop until they start banning people. Nothing we chat about is going to change that.

Your not a traffic warden are you?

[David Hayward]

There is a big difference between reporting problems and complaining for the 500th time that this game is broken howcouldthishappentheydontrespectusineedaprogressr eportorimgoingtocry.

[furbs]

And nothing IS going to change until the devs fix it.

[David Hayward]

Your not a traffic warden are you?

I'm a computer programmer. I code hospital software. People can die if I screw up. That's why I have no tolerance for all the whining. It's a game. No one is going to die.

[Sternjaeger II]

I'm a computer programmer. I code hospital software. People can die if I screw up. That's why I have no tolerance for all the whining. It's a game. No one is going to die.

does their opinion count? :rolleyes:

[philip.ed]

The devs don't seem to share your views on that.

TBH, I can't see the proof of this, apart from the fact that correspondence hasn't increased.

[David Hayward]

apart from the fact that correspondence hasn't increased.

How much more proof do you need?

[raaaid]

this poll reminded me of this:

i bet you one million internetz at a toss of a coin:

heads i win

tails you lose

toss the coin and give me the internets if you lose :-P

[David Hayward]

does their opinion count? :rolleyes:

Our customers don't spend all their time whining about how we don't respect them. :rolleyes:

[philip.ed]

How much more proof do you need?

My point is that that is the only proof the devs don't listen to the community. In short, they choose to follow whatever path they think will help their development scheme. Clearly they don't have the time to monitor the forum as we would want, however it would ease a lot of tension and help us to understand their status a lot better (it wouldn't take long to post a proper development update, as I have shown elsewhere)

[David Hayward]

however it would ease a lot of tension and help us to understand their status a lot better

No, it wouldn't. Have you seen my summary of the progress report process? It always ends with people complaining that Luthier does not respect them. Lots of info, or very little info, the result is the same. It's actually quite humorous.

[Seeker]

Our customers don't spend all their time whining about how we don't respect them. :rolleyes:


You're a programmer, good for you!

I'm a system architect.

You can bet your last byte I moan when developers miss their milestones.

And should I come to think they're losing respect for their contractual obligations, we have a whole legal department eager to remind them.

Still, now you know how to satisfy your clients next time you screw up. Just send them a home made music video, they're sure to see the funny side.

[Sternjaeger II]

No, it wouldn't. Have you seen my summary of the progress report process? It always ends with people complaining that Luthier does not respect them. Lots of info, or very little info, the result is the same. It's actually quite humorous.

it's a known fact that Luthier's sarcasm is often out of place. He can't take criticisms, IMHO he's worse than Oleg in this aspect.

I quoted before his corrected bugslist where he was doing sarcastic comments on the accuracy of stuff, a professional should refrain from doing it.

Again, this is my opinion and has little or nothing to do with the sim, but kinda tells a lot about the current issue with situation updates.

[Sternjaeger II]

Our customers don't spend all their time whining about how we don't respect them. :rolleyes:

probably cos you don't have a users' forum :rolleyes:

[Vengeanze]

Sternjaeger II, welcome to my ignore list.
Feels good to be reknown in the IL-2 community for ruining this forum?
Why do I guess you fly using another nick!?

Btw no need to reply as I can't read your posts anymore. Thank God.

[David Hayward]

Still, now you know how to satisfy your clients next time you screw up. Just send them a home made music video, they're sure to see the funny side.

If I screw up someone might die. This is a game. If you don't see the funny side of that video, find a different game to play.

[Sternjaeger II]

Sternjaeger II, welcome to my ignore list.
Feels good to be reknown in the IL-2 community for ruining this forum?
Why do I guess you fly using another nick!?

Btw no need to reply as I can't read your posts anymore. Thank God.

..this troll-detector plug-in I installed on Google Chrome actually works! :rolleyes:

Too bad you put me in the ignore list, it says a lot about what open minded person you are. Best of luck.

[kyletiernan]

Im honestly just waiting for this game to be playable, its so far behind il2 1946 as far as everything goes.

[Tree_UK]

Well so far the poll is conclusive-

LUTHIER TALK TO US.
Even the whining poll suggest we need more whining lol :grin:

[Blackdog_kt]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23532


Hi everyone,

We've been hard at work on a whole bunch of stuff here. Quicker fixes are now a thing of the past; we're working on larger more complex stuff and so patches, updates and improvements will be coming at a slower pace.

Our next BETA patch is tentatively scheduled for two weeks from now for Friday the 17th, and the release version of it is scheduled for the Friday after that, June 24th.

The next patch will contain:

* Improved streamlined multiplayer GUI
* Other multiplayer improvements - more stability, all plane settings like convergence and paintscheme working at all times, less rare bugs, etc.
* Various graphical improvements. The distant clouds are finally back - i.e. the flat representations of clouds you saw on beta screenshots with pretty sunlit borders. Finally fixed the landscape stripes bug, etc.
* Improvements to FM and DM and various cockpit systems, as usual - long list there.
* AI improvements, including at least the majority, if not all, of the order system working.
* A new warship!

Other things that are in the pipeline:

* Sound. This is probably the biggest issue we're facing. We're taking a very drastic approach to the issue and pretty much redoing our sound from scratch. This means you won't see the new sound for a few more months.
* FPS. The final remaining performance issues, which fortunately are comparatively minor, lie very deep in the engine, and require us to do a significant amount of work. Probably at least 2 months of it.
* Online stability, more anti-cheating controls, and server and aircraft SDK - also a few months out. Dedicated Server SDK and documentation is probably going to be done the quickest.

NOTE: this isn't an exhaustive list, but rather the main bullet points.

So stay tuned for more patch info next week. I'll try to do more regular weekly Friday updates from now on.
Edit/Delete Message



So in my opinion SOUND, FPS, and Online Stability are the next foundational problems to be tackled within the game. Addressing other issues without ensuring these mentioned are implemented correctly would be like adding window dressings to a house whose foundation is faulty. Discussing the new problems would be foolish and time wasting. If significant progress isn't made or if progress that most of us wouldn't understand is attained, what good would talking about it be? A waste of time IMO.

I guess I don't understand what you folks want as far as a future road map and progress updates. If there's nothing new to report do you really think this crowd is going to sit down for, "There's no new news folks?" I doubt it.

Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't. I guess for me, this is enough for now. I'd expect updates closer to when these things are finalized or they've reached a development plateau. As he wrote: "Quicker fixes are now a thing of the past; we're working on larger more complex stuff and so patches, updates and improvements will be coming at a slower pace."



If it matters. I abstained from voting.



So then I'd obviously vote yes, because I WANT updates in a regular manner. I'm just not sure if updates can be done on a regular basis when the road map is so fluid ATM. One man's regular interval. may be anothers desert of information.


Being that I'm satisfied with the updates for now, and knowing many aren't, I don't think that's how the poll would be perceived. I think many will use it as a 'war cry' to muster up support and try to strong arm information or updates, when for me the regularity (or lack thereof) is fine with me.

I want updates. I'm fine with the way they are coming out. I don't think that's how the poll reads.



Say you get 100 yeahs.... 5 nays.... and 1 maybe. That says 100 want information. Fine. We all do. But it doesn't say that out of 100 there may be 50 who are satisfied with update progress. It CAN be construed to mean that 100 people want regular updates and all 100 think you're not doing a good job of it. That's why I abstained.





You just saved me a lot of typing, +1.

If there's nothing new to report, a simple "hey guys, we're still working on feature X and it's coming along at such and such pace" is the only thing that can be reasonably reported to us in an update.

That's what, 2-3 lines? Well that's exactly what we got yesterday in the last update and it's what can reasonably be expected until the next milestone in the roadmap is reached (banjo video notwithstanding), yet people flail about nonetheless.

If a road map changes every week it's not much of a roadmap, so i guess we're also out of things to report on that front as well.

As such, i didn't vote because i consider the poll options unsuitable to reflect the true conditions of the current situation: there's not much to report until something is finished, a beta sample is ready for testing, or the majority of the forum are professional programmers with prior knowledge of the CoD source code so that they will be able to understand a block of C++ posted in a future update where Luthier tells us how they go about implementing dynamic weather or something similar :-P

What do you think the reaction would be?:

1) "wow, i don't know what this means but thanks for being so open about it?"

or

2) "what in god's name is this technical jargon mambo jumbo/you call this an update/it's clear they are mocking us/ we want a preview video and a patch release date"

Here's another poll for us all :cool:

In other words, updates just for the sake of getting them is only a recipe for repetitive or empty posts, unless there is something tangible to report.

It's not a matter of whether we want updates or not, everyone does. It's a matter of whether there's anything to update us on that the majority of the forum can make sense of without seeing a final, complete result.

I seriously doubt there currently is such a thing, especially seeing how hung up the loudest crowd is on easy to spot superficial details and completely misses all the gameplay-relevant details and fixes needed under the hood (where they haven't bothered to look much because the fields are too green and the tracers too thick) so the way updates are currently handled is fine for me: it seems the majority of people who create the "want updates" wave is mostly focused on things they can see or hear, but there's no new pretty pictures to show and the sounds are not ready yet.

You know what fixes i would be ecstatic about? Fixing the gyrocompass in the Ju88 so that it can use its level bombing autopilot and actually fly the mission it's intended to, tweak the CEM to correct the current inaccuracies in FM, adjust the turret behaviour on bombers with powered turrets so they can be used as intented and redo the anthropomoprhic controls to filter out controller spikes and take into account control proximity instead of having an arbitrary "two hand limit".

However, these are not fixes that can be displayed until they are done and a demo video is uploaded for us to see. I wouldn't understand a thing about how they do it in the code, so a simple "we're fixing the issues with the bombers" is all i need to hear.



To start wrapping this up, if the poll had a "none of the above, i have another opinion (please elaborate in post)" option, i would have gone with that. I think the options are a bit too "railroaded" for me and while it's true we can't have polls with 19765 options to reflect every opinion, i think the current choices are a bit too limited: they will result in an overwhelming "yes, we want updates" verdict without making any mention of the issues presented above in the rest of my post and the quotes provided, which is actually the biggest part of why there are no regular updates at this time.

As such, i consider it a non-representative poll (there's no immediately visible way to know how many people read the poll but abstained, which would be a good indication of how the community gauges the validity of the poll, unless we start comparing the amount of views and votes), abstain from voting and i will openly challenge the interpretation of its very predictable results if it ends up being used as a "leverage point" further down the road. Nothing personal of course, i'm just taking the clinical approach here and telling it how i see it:

The poll is skewed (i'm not saying it's done on purpose, it's just skewed), the results will be the same and as such, it doesn't qualify for much of an argument/evidence. For example, people may vote "i don't want updates" if they think it's skewed on purpose, just to spite off the ones who demand the updates, if it happened to be a majority would the result be valid? :)

Some people may like to make fun of him, but the guy in the below quote got it all right in much fewer words than i used:

this poll reminded me of this:

i bet you one million internetz at a toss of a coin:

heads i win

tails you lose

toss the coin and give me the internets if you lose :-P

;-)

[Pudfark]

Well so far the poll is conclusive-

LUTHIER TALK TO US.
Even the whining poll suggest we need more whining lol :grin:

New category: Poll Troll
I voted with the majority:-D

[Bryan21cag]

lol im thinking this one is going to be a bit one sided :)

[Sternjaeger II]

Blackdog, I always get kinda scared by the length of your posts, but I generally agree with with you, you always come out as a well balanced member. Let me explain what I meant with this poll, cos I believe there's a lot of second guessing and misunderstanding of my purpose:

You just saved me a lot of typing, +1.

If there's nothing new to report, a simple "hey guys, we're still working on feature X and it's coming along at such and such pace" is the only thing that can be reasonably reported to us in an update.

That's what, 2-3 lines? Well that's exactly what we got yesterday in the last update and it's what can reasonably be expected until the next milestone in the roadmap is reached (banjo video notwithstanding), yet people flail about nonetheless.

If a road map changes every week it's not much of a roadmap, so i guess we're also out of things to report on that front as well.


I don't think there's a need to change the roadmap, all I'm saying is that an update of the work status towards the next patch would be very appreciated, cos it puts us in a perspective of knowing what's happening.

Again, as a customer and a fan of one of the (potentially) best sims on the market, I feel that, because of the relentless support, help and investment (I personally bought two copies of every single game released by the guys, publicised their work and ran the first Italian community website back in the times when the first IL-2 came out) that we made in Maddox Games, the least that we could receive is the same treatment we received over the past years, with constant feedback, updates and interaction. Yes, there have been dark times and bright ones, but the result (IL-2 1946) was a gem of rare beauty.

The air is different now, the screwing up that came with the poor distributor managing (and here I curse you, Ubisoft!), brought us to a release of a half finished game. I'm sure that the guys made a miracle in terms of logistic and programming work, but the sad reality is that they were forced to sell an alpha for a complete game. We were ready to put up with it too, but 5 months along the line, and after years of "family work", the last thing I accept is to see a new development manager behaving in a bit of an unprofessional manner, using sarcasm when really uncalled for and giving less and less updates, until the embarrassing silence of the last weeks, broken only by a very poor stunt that is only buying him time. And again, it's not the action per se, it's the fact that he thinks he can pull such a number to the "old school" members that really leaves me disappointed.


As such, i didn't vote because i consider the poll options unsuitable to reflect the true conditions of the current situation: there's not much to report until something is finished, a beta sample is ready for testing, or the majority of the forum are professional programmers with prior knowledge of the CoD source code so that they will be able to understand a block of C++ posted in a future update where Luthier tells us how they go about implementing dynamic weather or something similar :-P

What do you think the reaction would be?:

1) "wow, i don't know what this means but thanks for being so open about it?"

or

2) "what in god's name is this technical jargon mambo jumbo/you call this an update/it's clear they are mocking us/ we want a preview video and a patch release date"


this is just speculation, and I'd be the first to corner the real trolls that come here and look for some trouble whenever Luthier posts a genuine update that is respectful to the community.


Here's another poll for us all :cool:

In other words, updates just for the sake of getting them is only a recipe for repetitive or empty posts, unless there is something tangible to report.

It's not a matter of whether we want updates or not, everyone does. It's a matter of whether there's anything to update us on that the majority of the forum can make sense of without seeing a final, complete result.

I seriously doubt there currently is such a thing, especially seeing how hung up the loudest crowd is on easy to spot superficial details and completely misses all the gameplay-relevant details and fixes needed under the hood (where they haven't bothered to look much because the fields are too green and the tracers too thick) so the way updates are currently handled is fine for me: it seems the majority of people who create the "want updates" wave is mostly focused on things they can see or hear, but there's no new pretty pictures to show and the sounds are not ready yet.

You know what fixes i would be ecstatic about? Fixing the gyrocompass in the Ju88 so that it can use its level bombing autopilot and actually fly the mission it's intended to, tweak the CEM to correct the current inaccuracies in FM, adjust the turret behaviour on bombers with powered turrets so they can be used as intented and redo the anthropomoprhic controls to filter out controller spikes and take into account control proximity instead of having an arbitrary "two hand limit".

However, these are not fixes that can be displayed until they are done and a demo video is uploaded for us to see. I wouldn't understand a thing about how they do it in the code, so a simple "we're fixing the issues with the bombers" is all i need to hear.



To start wrapping this up, if the poll had a "none of the above, i have another opinion (please elaborate in post)" option, i would have gone with that. I think the options are a bit too "railroaded" for me and while it's true we can't have polls with 19765 options to reflect every opinion, i think the current choices are a bit too limited: they will result in an overwhelming "yes, we want updates" verdict without making any mention of the issues presented above in the rest of my post and the quotes provided, which is actually the biggest part of why there are no regular updates at this time.

As such, i consider it a non-representative poll (there's no immediately visible way to know how many people read the poll but abstained, which would be a good indication of how the community gauges the validity of the poll, unless we start comparing the amount of views and votes), abstain from voting and i will openly challenge the interpretation of its very predictable results if it ends up being used as a "leverage point" further down the road. Nothing personal of course, i'm just taking the clinical approach here and telling it how i see it:

The poll is skewed (i'm not saying it's done on purpose, it's just skewed), the results will be the same and as such, it doesn't qualify for much of an argument/evidence. For example, people may vote "i don't want updates" if they think it's skewed on purpose, just to spite off the ones who demand the updates, if it happened to be a majority would the result be valid? :)

Some people may like to make fun of him, but the guy in the below quote got it all right in much fewer words than i used:



;-)

I think the magic of the poll is that once you vote you can explain why you did it. Like I said to Robert, any opinion is valid, as long as there's polite, civil and intelligent conversation coming with it. I have no mercy or sympathy for trolls or agitators, my flaw is that I get to their level, but I can't help it.

I hope you will consider my words and maybe understand that mine is a genuine call to see how many people would like to be updated on this long, unusual and somehow worrying silence.

[Robert]

I'll quote Luthier's June 3rd, 2011 update again (sorry):

"Other things that are in the pipeline:

* Sound. This is probably the biggest issue we're facing. We're taking a very drastic approach to the issue and pretty much redoing our sound from scratch. This means you won't see the new sound for a few more months.
* FPS. The final remaining performance issues, which fortunately are comparatively minor, lie very deep in the engine, and require us to do a significant amount of work. Probably at least 2 months of it.
* Online stability, more anti-cheating controls, and server and aircraft SDK - also a few months out. Dedicated Server SDK and documentation is probably going to be done the quickest."


It's been almost two months since this was posted when Luthier mentioned the sound and online stability won't be ready for a couple/few months. The same for final FPS issues. (I'm still hedging a bet that this new sound is going to help a good deal in the FPS category.) Since that time we are almost two months closer to that goal. Does that mean another month? Two? Three? IDK. But does the development team even know?

I'd like to assume Luthier's banjo routine was a positive sign that things are going good. After all that's what he said.... which I hope means we are close. That doesn't mean they know how close to patch release they are, but it is an indication things are going well

While some don't recognize yesterday's post as an update, I do. The other things people are waiting for do not compare in necessity as these fixes now. When it's time to address them I'm confident 1C will advise.

Again. While others feel there is no communication, I see a road map. We're not going to get any closer or any faster to our destination by knowing what less important bugs/issues are being worked on further on down that road map.


On a long trip it's great to wonder about the Grand Canyon, but what good does it do if you're stuck 2000 miles away on the Tappen Zee Bridge?

[Blackdog_kt]

Blackdog, I always get kinda scared by the length of your posts, but I generally agree with with you, you always come out as a well balanced member. Let me explain what I meant with this poll, cos I believe there's a lot of second guessing and misunderstanding of my purpose:



I don't think there's a need to change the roadmap, all I'm saying is that an update of the work status towards the next patch would be very appreciated, cos it puts us in a perspective of knowing what's happening.

Again, as a customer and a fan of one of the (potentially) best sims on the market, I feel that, because of the relentless support, help and investment (I personally bought two copies of every single game released by the guys, publicised their work and ran the first Italian community website back in the times when the first IL-2 came out) that we made in Maddox Games, the least that we could receive is the same treatment we received over the past years, with constant feedback, updates and interaction. Yes, there have been dark times and bright ones, but the result (IL-2 1946) was a gem of rare beauty.

The air is different now, the screwing up that came with the poor distributor managing (and here I curse you, Ubisoft!), brought us to a release of a half finished game. I'm sure that the guys made a miracle in terms of logistic and programming work, but the sad reality is that they were forced to sell an alpha for a complete game. We were ready to put up with it too, but 5 months along the line, and after years of "family work", the last thing I accept is to see a new development manager behaving in a bit of an unprofessional manner, using sarcasm when really uncalled for and giving less and less updates, until the embarrassing silence of the last weeks, broken only by a very poor stunt that is only buying him time. And again, it's not the action per se, it's the fact that he thinks he can pull such a number to the "old school" members that really leaves me disappointed.



this is just speculation, and I'd be the first to corner the real trolls that come here and look for some trouble whenever Luthier posts a genuine update that is respectful to the community.



I think the magic of the poll is that once you vote you can explain why you did it. Like I said to Robert, any opinion is valid, as long as there's polite, civil and intelligent conversation coming with it. I have no mercy or sympathy for trolls or agitators, my flaw is that I get to their level, but I can't help it.

I hope you will consider my words and maybe understand that mine is a genuine call to see how many people would like to be updated on this long, unusual and somehow worrying silence.

Fain enough. We all get dragged into the mud pit from time to time (i guess today is my day for it :-P ), so thanks for explaining it in a more level headed manner ;-)

[Chivas]

I don't need regular updates, certainly not weekly updates, as there is seldom enough done in a week worth commenting on. A update every two or three weeks when there is something of substance would be just fine.

[Tree_UK]

I don't need regular updates, certainly not weekly updates, as there is seldom enough done in a week worth commenting on. A update every two or three weeks when there is something of substance would be just fine.

thats good for you mate, but your in a very small minority, look above at the poll results.

[Tree_UK]

I'll quote Luthier's June 3rd, 2011 update again (sorry):

"Other things that are in the pipeline:

* Sound. This is probably the biggest issue we're facing. We're taking a very drastic approach to the issue and pretty much redoing our sound from scratch. This means you won't see the new sound for a few more months.
* FPS. The final remaining performance issues, which fortunately are comparatively minor, lie very deep in the engine, and require us to do a significant amount of work. Probably at least 2 months of it.
* Online stability, more anti-cheating controls, and server and aircraft SDK - also a few months out. Dedicated Server SDK and documentation is probably going to be done the quickest."


It's been almost two months since this was posted when Luthier mentioned the sound and online stability won't be ready for a couple/few months. The same for final FPS issues. (I'm still hedging a bet that this new sound is going to help a good deal in the FPS category.) Since that time we are almost two months closer to that goal. Does that mean another month? Two? Three? IDK. But does the development team even know?

I'd like to assume Luthier's banjo routine was a positive sign that things are going good. After all that's what he said.... which I hope means we are close. That doesn't mean they know how close to patch release they are, but it is an indication things are going well

While some don't recognize yesterday's post as an update, I do. The other things people are waiting for do not compare in necessity as these fixes now. When it's time to address them I'm confident 1C will advise.

Again. While others feel there is no communication, I see a road map. We're not going to get any closer or any faster to our destination by knowing what less important bugs/issues are being worked on further on down that road map.


On a long trip it's great to wonder about the Grand Canyon, but what good does it do if you're stuck 2000 miles away on the Tappen Zee Bridge?

These are all big issues that require fixing, but there are hundreds of smaller bugs that could be dealt with whilst wotk goes on, Luthier should be doing everything it takes to fix the faulty product he sold us, if it means hiring more people then so be it, weve put our hands in our pockets and paid the asking price, now its time to get what we paid for.

[Dano]

I don't need regular updates, doesn't stop me wanting them though :)

[David Hayward]

I was not aware that poll results were binding on the devs.

[Tempered]

The poll might as well say "Would you like one million dollars?". Everyone pretty much wants everything they can get. Does everyone need a million dollars? No.

What if they gave you a million dollars, one penny a week. Not much use, is it? That is what you are asking for. You want your million dollars at one penny a week.

What do you want the devs to update you on regularly? "We changed variable xyz to zyx today." A total waste of time.

Software development takes time, and squashing bugs can take even longer. When they have something worth updating the community on, I'm sure they will inform everyone.

[Sternjaeger II]

The poll might as well say "Would you like one million dollars?". Everyone pretty much wants everything they can get. Does everyone need a million dollars? No.

What if they gave you a million dollars, one penny a week. Not much use, is it? That is what you are asking for. You want your million dollars at one penny a week.

What do you want the devs to update you on regularly? "We changed variable xyz to zyx today." A total waste of time.

Software development takes time, and squashing bugs can take even longer. When they have something worth updating the community on, I'm sure they will inform everyone.

It's funny how the ideas that you and David have in your mind of what we want (which you have the presumption to think is actually what we want) is on a very unreasonable level.

What you don't seem to think of is that if anything, an update every fortnight, with the news being given in an intelligent and pro-active manner, will actually help develop more sympathy and support even among the newcomers, don't you think? Everyone's morale is boosted, everybody wins!

[Tempered]

It's funny how the ideas that you and David have in your mind of what we want (which you have the presumption to think is actually what we want) is on a very unreasonable level.

What you don't seem to think of is that if anything, an update every fortnight, with the news being given in an intelligent and pro-active manner, will actually help develop more sympathy and support even among the newcomers, don't you think? Everyone's morale is boosted, everybody wins!

Amazing. One post and you already know what I think and yet somehow manage to miss the entire point of my post.

So what is it that "we" actually want that I don't seem to understand? It seems to me that you want regular updates. Is this not so?

I'm not sure where you get that I believe your request is "unreasonable". I've stated that I believe weekly updates are pointless when there is nothing to update. Luthier just gave such an update and much of the community found it either pointless or insulting. Are you asking for more of the same?

[Robert]

Luthier should be doing everything it takes to fix the faulty product he sold us, if it means hiring more people then so be it, weve put our hands in our pockets and paid the asking price, now its time to get what we paid for.


How do any of us know that he's not doing everything it takes, Tree?

You don't think the team is playing 'tiddly winks' do you?

[Chivas]

thats good for you mate, but your in a very small minority, look above at the poll results.

The available answers in this Poll could only generate that outcome. Of course everyone would like regular updates, and would probably like them every Friday, but it would be impossible for the developers to have enough done in a week, to make a weekly update worthwhile.

The weekly updates later in the first Il-2 series only worked because the sim was finished long before it was released. They could drip feed us weekly info that was already accomplished, while they developed the demo.

[FFCW_Urizen]

Do i want a regular update on what´s going on? Yes.
Do i need weekly updates? Definitely not!
I´d say once a month is more than sufficient, but that´s just for me.

And btw, why is almost everyone assuming that regular equals weekly?

So Long
Uri

[Kikuchiyo]

I have a few issues with this poll, a) misleading name (should be update satisfaction), b) like too many polls it's either not inclusive enough or biased.

I would like more info in the updates we get, but I don't need a weekly update. I see where things have come vs where they started and for me I am very satisfied with the progress made. I wish it were in better shape, and yes I'd like more information from the team than we've seen in awhile, but this poll is disingenuous.

I think we all want more info of what is going on, but I'd rather progress continue to be made than capitulation to the community which lets all be honest was at least a factor in the disastrous product we ended up with. Myself included. Ultimately yes the devs chose niggling issues of the community over major issues with the game, but we are not fully without blame.

[Ibis]

I voted "not sure"
because either way it brings the dummy spitters out of the woodwork making this forum look like "Aunty Amies Agony Column".

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't need regular updates, certainly not weekly updates, as there is seldom enough done in a week worth commenting on. A update every two or three weeks when there is something of substance would be just fine.

That's my take on things too. There's no need for updates if there's nothing new to tell.

That being said, i want to address Tree's weird notion that he speaks for everyone because he doesn't and that's not only by taking his "fanboy" opponents into account. I've done a load of testing on the sim, differentiated between bugs and legitimate features, strived to come up with work-arounds to known issues and at some of these i succeeded and told other people about too.

So it's not like i haven't been telling people left and right what's wrong with the sim (the operative difference being i was usually telling them a bit about how to fix it as well instead of just engaging in "forum sniping").

In other words, you can't weasel your way out of this by plastering a "fanboy" label across my forehead because i've probably come up with and informed people of way more bugs than your personal favorite TWO issues (sounds and anti-aliasing), which is something that "fanboys" don't do for fear of damaging the sim's reputation.

So, let's start...

thats good for you mate, but your in a very small minority, look above at the poll results.

Like i said before, i don't consider the poll representative because it doesn't provide an option for what Chivas said (which is also what i was saying a few posts back and repeating here): if there's nothing new to show, the only update worth doing is "we're still working on X and it's going such and such". You know, the kind of update that got the "majority" so offended.

I doubt you'd be willing to accept that as an update but no matter how you try to convince us otherwise, the reality of it all is simple: if the cake is not baked yet you can't eat it.

And no, it's far from certain we are a minority because usually most of us are quiet and the rest of the time the polls don't have a suitable option to reflect how many of us are around.

That's exactly why i didn't vote even though i would like to see updates, you have a bad habit of interpreting everything only in the way that suits your agenda, you regularly twist a single sentence into something so different from it's original meaning that a contortionist would be jealous of you and i don't want to lend any credence to that.

You don't represent me, you don't speak for me and i guess many others share the same opinion, they are increasing by the day as long as you keep aggressively pursuing the same "tactics" on the forums. Look, here's a new one that's saying exactly what i've been telling everyone the last couple of days and what Chivas told you a few posts back:

The poll might as well say "Would you like one million dollars?". Everyone pretty much wants everything they can get. Does everyone need a million dollars? No.

What if they gave you a million dollars, one penny a week. Not much use, is it? That is what you are asking for. You want your million dollars at one penny a week.

What do you want the devs to update you on regularly? "We changed variable xyz to zyx today." A total waste of time.

Software development takes time, and squashing bugs can take even longer. When they have something worth updating the community on, I'm sure they will inform everyone.


Oh, here's another one:

Do i want a regular update on what´s going on? Yes.
Do i need weekly updates? Definitely not!
I´d say once a month is more than sufficient, but that´s just for me.

And btw, why is almost everyone assuming that regular equals weekly?

So Long
Uri



And yet another one, who talks about what most of you are so tight lipped about, that fact that some people were all frothing at the mouth for it to be released and were having similar fits to the current one whenever a release delay was announced, but when they suddenly got their wish they just washed their hands clean of it all and started pretending they got deceived:

I have a few issues with this poll, a) misleading name (should be update satisfaction), b) like too many polls it's either not inclusive enough or biased.

I would like more info in the updates we get, but I don't need a weekly update. I see where things have come vs where they started and for me I am very satisfied with the progress made. I wish it were in better shape, and yes I'd like more information from the team than we've seen in awhile, but this poll is disingenuous.

I think we all want more info of what is going on, but I'd rather progress continue to be made than capitulation to the community which lets all be honest was at least a factor in the disastrous product we ended up with. Myself included. Ultimately yes the devs chose niggling issues of the community over major issues with the game, but we are not fully without blame.

So, how can they have been deceived? You know Tree, i'd be willing to place a higher importance on your posts if you at least admitted you've screwed up at certain times in the past through self contradiction, but all we hear about is how your predictions were right.

A dozen or so were bound to be, because to be honest, you predicted everything under the sun...you're not a clairvoyant, it's just statistics and the equivalent to saying "i predict your dice roll will be a number between 1 and 6", whoop-de-doo, big deal.

Well you can't have your cake and eat it too, you either predicted it or you got misled. If you knew the sim would be so awful and went ahead with a day one purchase no matter what, despite the already existing negative feedback from the Russian release i might add which was freely available to all of us including non-clairvoyants and mere mortals, you only have yourself to blame and it doesn't call for any sympathy on our part.

In other words, if you knew so much how come you got suckered in? You either didn't know that much in the first place or you where asking for it, in which case your cries for expediency are for the rest of us a tragicomic pass-time that is however way past its expiration date. The joke has gotten old, give it a rest or i'll slap up another multi-pager exposing the flaws in your arguments at the first convenient moment and as soon as i have accumulated some fresh material (which you so kindly provide at such a high volume).

Oops, yet another person who's fed up

I voted "not sure"
because either way it brings the dummy spitters out of the woodwork making this forum look like "Aunty Amies Agony Column".

So, i don't know how many of us there are that share this opinion, but the more you post the number grows. ;-)

If you want to know how many of us there are you could start a poll with the proper options instead of using a skewed one as arbitrary proof that the community 100% agrees with you. If you think i'm alone in holding this opinion, once more think again:

The available answers in this Poll could only generate that outcome. Of course everyone would like regular updates, and would probably like them every Friday, but it would be impossible for the developers to have enough done in a week, to make a weekly update worthwhile.

The weekly updates later in the first Il-2 series only worked because the sim was finished long before it was released. They could drip feed us weekly info that was already accomplished, while they developed the demo.


Just for the record, four of the above quotes are from posts made in sequence by different people you know.

At this rate there might be enough of us to outnumber your vocal little group of half a dozen "fire starters" by the end of the week, then maybe we can start a suitably biased poll of our own asking for a division of the forum a la SimHQ to be enforced by some iron-handed moderation and we'll be set to go. Will you take a taste of your own medicine or will you act all victimized if such a thing comes to pass? Because you see, we can all play this game, it's not that hard you know.

No offence as usual, as long as you keep repeating it i'll keep answering to it, that's all, because i hate it when people act like they're speaking on my behalf just to make it seem like they have "bodies for the cause" backing them up. You don't have our support because we don't agree with your speculative assessments and your way of doing things Tree, that's all.

We don't hate you and we don't want the sim to fail, we're just bored of your repetitiveness just like you're bored of the bugs. And while none of us can do anything to make the patches come any faster, you and others like you have the power to save us some of the grief of reading the same things over and over again, by coming up with something of more variety. I mean, how are we to sympathise with you and your cause when you're doing to everyone else what Luthier is doing to you? :rolleyes:

The answer is simple, we can't, and as time goes by more and more people openly confront you and oppose your propositions. If that's acceptable to you, then you surely have a weird way of getting people on board :cool:

[Pudfark]

Respectfully Blackdog, you over looked something?
Tree_UK does represent a lot of thoughts here, to include mine...
I would have posted more than I have....It's just that he beat me to it.

The poll here represents that...and support for his views/statements.

Here is the one thing that we all may agree upon?
Luthier can put this "fire" out anytime he wants to....

What is of concern to me?
Why won't he?

Thanx Tree, you saved me a lot of typing the last couple of days.

[robtek]

Respectfully, Pudfark,

how do you come to the conclusion that Tree represents more than the max. 12 people which agree with him from time to time????

Dont tell me you actually believe in those "polls", which are as biased as possible.

[Vengeanze]

Thanx Tree, you saved me a lot of typing the last couple of days.

I have to say the same about Blackdog. You're headon with your analysis in my eyes.

[Tree_UK]

Blackdog

Would you like to be informed in a regular and effective way on patch progress

How can that be misleading, yes or no?? very simple really, the reason the question is being asked is because at present we are not being informed, so i fail to see how the poll is some kind trap for unsuspecting members.

Blackdog - another long post, I dont speak for anyone other than myself its just that as you can see 145 people currently share my view and only 14 share yours, that makes you part of a minority, I cant help that it is what it is. Also the poill does not ask for 'weekly' updates as you suggested it clearly ask for regular.

Lastly, regarding my predictions I see you have jumped on the same bandwagon as others suggesting I predicted eveything, that is wrong if you bothered to research this particular attack on me by reading my old posts you would see I concentrated my predictions in certain key areas, Im dissappointed that you have failed to gather some factual evidence, I had this discussion recently and challenged two people to look at my old posts, they failed to respond, perhaps your the guy to finally expose me?? Good luck.

[Robert]

Except according to the original poster the poll was to indicate who wanted to be informed in a regular and and effective way. I specifically said that I didn't want the poll to reflect that a YEAH vote from me would be misconstrued as a vote of dissatisfaction for how the updates were handled now.

I've laid out in two posts how I think (dependent upon real demonstrable progress) that the flow of information was fine with me. When the foundational processes are fixed I'd expect more free flow of info as to future updates and patches. The OP assured me that was his intention. Yes we all want information, but I want useful information put out in a pertinent manner.... not just for pixel's sake.

You've taken it to mean the very thing I wanted to guard against because that's not how I feel. Maybe there are 90 out of 100 that feel the way you do. There may only be 10% that do. As the poll is written it's impossible to discern which outcome was meant by the tally. According to the OP you've misinterpreted his poll.

[Tree_UK]

Except according to the original poster the poll was to indicate who wanted to be informed in a regular and and effective way. I specifically said that I didn't want the poll to reflect that a YEAH vote from me would be misconstrued as a vote of dissatisfaction for how the updates were handled now.

I've laid out in two posts how I think (dependent upon real demonstrable progress) that the flow of information was fine with me. When the foundational processes are fixed I'd expect more free flow of info as to future updates and patches. The OP assured me that was his intention. Yes we all want information, but I want useful information put out in a pertinent manner.... not just for pixel's sake.

You've taken it to mean the very thing I wanted to guard against because that's not how I feel. Maybe there are 90 out of 100 that feel the way you do. There may only be 10% that do. As the poll is written it's impossible to discern which outcome was meant by the tally. According to the OP you've misinterpreted his poll.

Robert, the petition thread was more represenative of forum members and in under 1 hour 80 people had signed it, then it was removed. it doesn't matter how you guys dress it up the simple fact is the members are not satisfied with the poor communication from the Dev's. End off.

[Chivas]

Unfortunately many people will take "Regular updates" in the Poll as "weekly updates" and use the poll results to defend their position. I can only surmise this by the amount of people who go off their nut if a weekly update doesn't show up. My contention is and always has been that weekly updates are untenable, and unrealistic, as even the developers are finding out after their stated hopes of providing the same. Yes its possible that some updates could be a week apart, but don't lose your nut if there are gaps of a few weeks.

[Robert]

Robert, the petition thread was more represenative of forum members and in under 1 hour 80 people had signed it, then it was removed. it doesn't matter how you guys dress it up the simple fact is the members are not satisfied with the poor communication from the Dev's. End off.


Well, I guess we'll all have to remain frustrated then. I don't see the amount on information drastically changing until closer to beta release.

Have a pint? :D

[scotchegg]

Robert, the petition thread was more represenative of forum members and in under 1 hour 80 people had signed it, then it was removed. it doesn't matter how you guys dress it up the simple fact is the members are not satisfied with the poor communication from the Dev's. End off.

No simpleton, some members are not happy.

Many members are patient enough to realise that developers are often put under pressure by publishers to release something incomplete to keep the project funded.

Many members remember how long it took the first game to mold into a gem, and can see the potential and progress already made with this sim.

Many members are also sick of the constant, public requests for contact from the devs and claims of "other devs keep in contact" when that is total rubbish. ROF doesn't have the contact, FSX never had the contact, even when ACES was still running.

Now do please either PM the devs with your requests, or be quiet.

[furbs]

Scotchegg, did you see the petition on communication before it was removed?

Your in the minority.

[Tree_UK]

No simpleton, some members are not happy.

Many members are patient enough to realise that developers are often put under pressure by publishers to release something incomplete to keep the project funded.

Many members remember how long it took the first game to mold into a gem, and can see the potential and progress already made with this sim.

Many members are also sick of the constant, public requests for contact from the devs and claims of "other devs keep in contact" when that is total rubbish. ROF doesn't have the contact, FSX never had the contact, even when ACES was still running.

Now do please either PM the devs with your requests, or be quiet.

sorry i didn't read your post past this bit; No simpleton

If you want to insult me trying being smarter or at least show some wit.

[MadTommy]

I don't care about update posts, i only care about patches, fixes & change logs.

A general post saying we are working on this & that is meaningless. When developers give timetables they only slide, just the nature of the game, and this only provokes complaints.

So i voted no.. Luthier has said if he is on the forums answering questions and posting updates then he is not working on fixes. So lets assume he is working hard, and by the snippets has has posted he has only reaffirmed that.

I see no purpose for regular updates to appease the rabble on these forums, as they clearly don't appease the said rabble.

[furbs]

Tommy, did you mean this....

Rabble = "complaints from paying customers , that i just dont happen to agree with, but are of course allowed to express their views as long as they comply with forum rules"

:)

[Sternjaeger II]

it is surprising how some people (or shall I say, the ones that don't care for updates, god knows why) bend things to their likings.

I have said REGULAR, not WEEKLY, you're the ones obsessed with the weekly thing. The frequency doesn't matter, as long as there's a regular, reasonable update on how things are going, if you don't understand technical jargon, tough, just make an effort or join the group of satisfied people in terms of "hey, these guys know what they're doing, I'll support them as long as it takes in order for them to deliver the best sim ever".

Is it really so very hard to understand? I'm starting to believe that some of the people who are questioning this poll are just doing it for the sake of argument.

Truth is that some of you just come in and start de-constructing the meaning of this poll, without bothering to actually read the lot and looking for hidden agendas and "hey I'm not that stupid, this poll is a hoax". As I said before, you're not happy/have a beef with me/thought of better ideas? Post your own poll.

My intent, AGAIN, was to give an official relevance, with some numbers to support our feelings, to a situation that has become a matter of far too much debate, in the hope that the dev gods will look at it and think "hey, maybe these guys aren't all trolls, maybe we need to reconsider our choices in terms of communication". Again, as a professional, it won't do them no harm to behave professionally, the impression they give with this attitude is of total disrespect for the customer and fan base.

[JG52Krupi]

Come on Sternjaeger II, I have searched for your name and there are 152 of you currently registered on this board, stop skewing the poll! Why would anyone want an update!!! ;)

[robtek]

The question is: why wouldn't anyone like a update?

Answer : everybody would like a update.

I could have told you that without any poll!

Does everybody need a update?

No! Only a quite loud minority seems to be unable to endure the waiting time.

[Sternjaeger II]

Come on Sternjaeger II, I have searched for your name and there are 152 of you currently registered on this board, stop skewing the poll! Why would anyone want an update!!! ;)

*read with a Stewie Griffin voice*
Blast! You ruined my cunning plan! :mrgreen:

[Sternjaeger II]

The question is: why wouldn't anyone like a update?

Answer : everybody would like a update.

I could have told you that without any poll!

Does everybody need a update?

No! Only a quite loud minority seems to be unable to endure the waiting time.

some people (or shall I say, most of the people that voted in this post?), probably don't care too much for posting, arguing and fighting, all they care for is... a regular and adequate update.

We were given the option to use polls, we are doing it. Post a poll yourself (possibly a serious one, unlike some other trolls recently did) and I'll be happy to vote and express my opinion.

Is it so very hard to understand? :confused:

[bongodriver]

Regular= constant frequency.....this could mean once every year and it would be regular, by this token the more than once a month we seem to be getting is by definition better than 'regular'.....is it not?

want < need.....need is greater than want, we all 'want', we don't need.

these are facts so please don't go down the 'you studid fanboi troll' route in response, I am not here for the argument, these are just the points that make me stand firm by my oppinions on this topic.

[Tree_UK]

The bottom line is this, it is more than clear that the mass majority of members who actively use this forum are currently dissatisfied with the communication we are getting.
How Luthier wishes to deal with this is up to him, however if he is a smart business man then I would imagine that he will address it, in an odd way he already has tried to placate us by telling us there will be a community manager, this of course turned out to be just rhetoric which to some extent is on par with most of Luthier's recent statements. Actions speak louder than words and hopefully Luthier will see that his current customer support is very much lacking and he needs to go back to the basic principle of business in that the 'customer is always right'.

[bongodriver]

The bottom line is this, it is more than clear that the mass majority of members who actively use this forum are currently dissatisfied with the communication we are getting.
How Luthier wishes to deal with this is up to him, however if he is a smart business man then I would imagine that he will address it, in an odd way he already has tried to placate us by telling us there will be a community manager, this of course turned out to be just rhetoric which to some extent is on par with most of Luthier's recent statements. Actions speak louder than words and hopefully Luthier will see that his current customer support is very much lacking and he needs to go back to the basic principle of business in that the 'customer is always right'.

OK but which of his customers are 'right' when they seem to have opposing views?

[MadTommy]

Tommy, did you mean this....

Rabble = "complaints from paying customers , that i just dont happen to agree with, but are of course allowed to express their views as long as they comply with forum rules"

:)

No i meant:

Rabble = a disorderly crowd; mob

I agree with a lot the rabble's basic sentiments.. i just get tired of many of them expressing the same sentiment over and over again in every thread, effectively spamming the forums and derailing any other discussion.

[Sternjaeger II]

Regular= constant frequency.....this could mean once every year and it would be regular, by this token the more than once a month we seem to be getting is by definition better than 'regular'.....is it not?

want < need.....need is greater than want, we all 'want', we don't need.

these are facts so please don't go down the 'you studid fanboi troll' route in response, I am not here for the argument, these are just the points that make me stand firm by my oppinions on this topic.

bongo, let's not play this game please, you know what I mean with regular frequency. There's a balance between "hey, no news yet, but.." and "yeah, woreva man.." :rolleyes:

I would like (as a customer and fan), don't want or need. Can't help but feeling sympathy for people that are upset because they bought a game that was sold to them as complete and found it was an alpha though..

[Tree_UK]

OK but which of his customers are 'right' when they seem to have opposing views?

Well if you look at the poll the mass majority are right in saying they are dissatisfied.

[bongodriver]

Well if you look at the poll the mass majority are right in saying they are dissatisfied.

the poll says nothing of dissatisfaction, it just says we want updates.

[Tree_UK]

the poll says nothing of dissatisfaction, it just says we want updates.

I think your argument is becoming very trivial now Bongo, you have resulted to a play on words. So what does the poll tell you exactly?

Does it tell you that 155 members are currently very happy?
Or does it suggest that 155 members are dissastisfied with the current communication?

[bongodriver]

it doesn't tell me anything, it just confirms my original statement that it's obvious everybody will want updates.


all good and well saying my argument is trivial......to you, that just happens to be my feelings on this topic.

[JG52Krupi]

it doesn't tell me anything, it just confirms my original statement that it's obvious everybody will want updates.


all good and well saying my argument is trivial......to you, that just happens to be my feelings on this topic.

Everyone wants updates... Surely that means they are dissatisfied with the lack of communication atm.

[Tree_UK]

it doesn't tell me anything, it just confirms my original statement that it's obvious everybody will want updates.


all good and well saying my argument is trivial......to you, that just happens to be my feelings on this topic.

Im fine with that Bongo, you are very much entitled to your opinion, and i would be most dissappointed if you felt that your opinion didn't matter because im sure it does.

See you in the pub. :grin:

[bongodriver]

Everyone wants updates... Surely that means they are dissatisfied with the lack of communication atm.

simply no....to ambiguous, everybody wants updates....who wouldn't....really despite some on the poll saying not, why didn't the poll say speciffically I'm dissatisfied with the communication?

does wanting something make you dissatisfied in life?

[Tree_UK]

simply no....to ambiguous, everybody wants updates....who wouldn't....really despite some on the poll saying not, why didn't the poll say speciffically I'm dissatisfied with the communication?

does wanting something make you dissatisfied in life?

We already did that in the form of a petition the result was more than convincing, hence its sudden removal.

[bongodriver]

We already did that in the form of a petition the result was more than convincing hence its sudden removal.

I must have missed it....was away las week, in Moscow of all places....maybe I should have given Luthier a visit.

[Tree_UK]

I must have missed it....was away las week, in Moscow of all places....maybe I should have given Luthier a visit.

lol, that would of been interesting :grin:

[David Hayward]

We already did that in the form of a petition the result was more than convincing, hence its sudden removal.

Actually, the fact that it was removed does not indicate that it was convincing. If it had been convincing you would have got an update. Instead, the dev team is mocking you.

[Tree_UK]

Actually, the fact that it was removed does not indicate that it was convincing. If it had been convincing you would have got an update. Instead, the dev team is mocking you.

David, you are in a minority, I suspect that even outside this forum you have spent most of your life in this category.

[David Hayward]

David, you are in a minority, I suspect that even outside this forum you have spent most of your life in this category.

I'm relatively certain that whether I am in the minority is completely irrelevant to the issue. The simple fact is that if your poll was as convincing as you seem to think it was, you would have got a progress report. That's what happens when you do something convincing. You get someone to do something that they would not do previous to your actions. Said progress report did not occur. Thusly, your poll was not as convincing as you seem to think it was.

At least that's according to my understanding of the definition of convincing. Perhaps you have a different definition?

[JG52Uther]

Tree don't feed the troll.

[furbs]

Maybe the poll being removed after just a hour and having over 80 people agree with it proves it was having a very big effect here, why else would it be removed?

[Pudfark]

I am beginning to think?
The dog ate Luthiers home work...

And the incomplete grade he received?
Is having trouble making it home...

Some folks say he got lost?
Others say it appears a bit dodgy?

Luthier says: ".................................................. ..................."

And there, you have it.....

"No answer is an answer"....and it isn't a good one...for anybody.

[addman]

Tree don't feed the troll.

Don't you mean, don't let the trolls feed the trolls?;)

[furbs]

Maybe we will get a update this Friday?

[catito14]

Maybe we will get a update this Friday?

It´s the "never ending" story ... :rolleyes:

[furbs]

quite true!

[Robert]

The polls still up. It has 170 yeahs. 29 nays, and 9 I'm not sures. I just voted the third option to see if it still tallys, and it does.

[Robert]

Everyone wants updates... Surely that means they are dissatisfied with the lack of communication atm.


And yet there have been numerous posts stating categorically just the opposite. They want more information but that doesn't mean they're unsatisfied. The poll (no matter how well meaning) is flawed as it doesn't clearly explain the intention of the voters.

[von Pilsner]

The poll (no matter how well meaning) is flawed as it doesn't clearly explain the intention of the voters.

True for nearly every internet forum poll ever created... :D

[Sternjaeger II]

Oh for the love of bananas Robert.. It does explain things very easily,you are nitpicking! You dont agree? Stop sounding like a broken record and get yr own poll!

[Robert]

Oh for the love of bananas Robert.. It does explain things very easily,you are nitpicking! You dont agree? Stop sounding like a broken record and get yr own poll!



What? LOL. Like you haven't spammed this god forsaken place? Puh-leez! I am NOT nit picking. There is a huge difference between how I interpret the poll (and you confirmed yesterday to me) and what is being portrayed from the poll results. Unless I REALLY misunderstood your intention and explanation of your precious poll - you lied to me..... and at this point I don't really care any more.



I won't comment again in your precious poll.

[Langnasen]

Just over 200 people have responded to this since yesterday? Only that number? I guess that says all that needs to be said about the failure of this game.

[Dano]

Just over 200 people have responded to this since yesterday? Only that number? I guess that says all that needs to be said about the failure of this game.

Not everybody uses forums, in fact last time I looked at any sort of stats based on them we forumites were a definite minority.

[Blackdog_kt]

Blackdog

Would you like to be informed in a regular and effective way on patch progress

How can that be misleading, yes or no?? very simple really, the reason the question is being asked is because at present we are not being informed, so i fail to see how the poll is some kind trap for unsuspecting members.

Blackdog - another long post, I dont speak for anyone other than myself its just that as you can see 145 people currently share my view and only 14 share yours, that makes you part of a minority, I cant help that it is what it is. Also the poill does not ask for 'weekly' updates as you suggested it clearly ask for regular.

Lastly, regarding my predictions I see you have jumped on the same bandwagon as others suggesting I predicted eveything, that is wrong if you bothered to research this particular attack on me by reading my old posts you would see I concentrated my predictions in certain key areas, Im dissappointed that you have failed to gather some factual evidence, I had this discussion recently and challenged two people to look at my old posts, they failed to respond, perhaps your the guy to finally expose me?? Good luck.

I don't have the time to look through your posts, if you want to use previous posts to make a point keep bookmarks and link them for me, i'll be happy to reconsider. Until then, i'm not keen on doing your work for you, i have to type another long post of my own ;-)


On the actual topic of the thread, this:

And yet there have been numerous posts stating categorically just the opposite. They want more information but that doesn't mean they're unsatisfied. The poll (no matter how well meaning) is flawed as it doesn't clearly explain the intention of the voters.

I want updates. I didn't vote for updates. Why? Because the kind and frequency of updates i want is not specified and my vote will be twisted into meaning something it's not meant to. This is not Sternjaeger's fault (i guess he made an honest mistake and just forgot that everything gets dissected down to quarks in this forum :-P ) and i'm not calling him biased.

I'm just saying that if i vote for updates, based on previous interactions with certain members of this board i expect my vote to receive a biased interpretation contrary to the one it has, so i choose not to give them ammunition.

Well, this turned out to be a short post after all :cool:

[Sternjaeger II]

What? LOL. Like you haven't spammed this god forsaken place? Puh-leez! I am NOT nit picking. There is a huge difference between how I interpret the poll (and you confirmed yesterday to me) and what is being portrayed from the poll results. Unless I REALLY misunderstood your intention and explanation of your precious poll - you lied to me..... and at this point I don't really care any more.



I won't comment again in your precious poll.

Well I'm sorry, but I, the OP, haven't given any interpretation. I just asked a simple question and now I'm sitting here wondering I should get a lawyer to check the form of what I write before posting it, so I don't come out in manners or forms that can be misinterpreted..

We talked about it, you expressed your opinion, you explained why you voted what, fine, let's move on, no political/social/evil agendas will use this poll for any hidden purpose, it was just meant to check on the general mood of people and see whether it was just a bunch of us that wanted regular and serious updates or not. Turns out some people don't find it necessary, so there you go..

I'm sorry but being processed in that manner regularly despite my explanations is really annoying, all in all it's just another poll nobody will listen to.

[Sternjaeger II]

I want updates. I didn't vote for updates. Why? Because the kind and frequency of updates i want is not specified and my vote will be twisted into meaning something it's not meant to. This is not Sternjaeger's fault (i guess he made an honest mistake and just forgot that everything gets dissected down to quarks in this forum :-P ) and i'm not calling him biased.

I'm just saying that if i vote for updates, based on previous interactions with certain members of this board i expect my vote to receive a biased interpretation contrary to the one it has, so i choose not to give them ammunition.

Well, this turned out to be a short post after all :cool:

Sorry Blackdog but twisted by who? As I said to Robert, did we really get to the stage where we have to ponder every word so much?! Come on guys...

..and yeah, probably your shortest post? ;)

[Robert]

Well I'm sorry, but I, the OP, haven't given any interpretation. I just asked a simple question and now I'm sitting here wondering I should get a lawyer to check the form of what I write before posting it, so I don't come out in manners or forms that can be misinterpreted..

We talked about it, you expressed your opinion, you explained why you voted what, fine, let's move on, no political/social/evil agendas will use this poll for any hidden purpose, it was just meant to check on the general mood of people and see whether it was just a bunch of us that wanted regular and serious updates or not. Turns out some people don't find it necessary, so there you go..

I'm sorry but being processed in that manner regularly despite my explanations is really annoying, all in all it's just another poll nobody will listen to.


It's all good Sternjaeger. For my part I apologize. I'm not trying to be a dink, and I think you know that. I just got caught up in the "Storm of War", if you will.

All of our postings aren't going to get this game into the condition we all want any faster. Waiting (as Tom Petty says) is the hardest part.

[Sternjaeger II]

It's all good Sternjaeger. For my part I apologize. I'm not trying to be a dink, and I think you know that. I just got caught up in the "Storm of War", if you will.

All of our postings aren't going to get this game into the condition we all want any faster. Waiting (as Tom Petty says) is the hardest part.

I know you aren't man.

And Tom Petty is right, but it'd be less hard with regular updates ;)

[furbs]

It's all good Sternjaeger. For my part I apologize. I'm not trying to be a dink, and I think you know that. I just got caught up in the "Storm of War", if you will.

All of our postings aren't going to get this game into the condition we all want any faster. Waiting (as Tom Petty says) is the hardest part.


Were all getting pretty burned out on here.(i know iam)

[speculum jockey]

Were all getting pretty burned out on here.(i know iam)

A lot of it is the total lack of content in this game. Single Player is pretty much limited to Quick Missions and Multiplayer is . . . well I don't need to say any more.

That last update by Luthier was pretty much a "F-U" to the community who were wondering if they were going to have a playable game in the next year. As for him saying, "everything is great, the company is doing great!" What else is he going to say? Even if they were ripping out the copper wiring and selling all their office supplies on eBay he'd still say the same thing.

[Sternjaeger II]

A lot of it is the total lack of content in this game. Single Player is pretty much limited to Quick Missions and Multiplayer is . . . well I don't need to say any more.

That last update by Luthier was pretty much a "F-U" to the community who were wondering if they were going to have a playable game in the next year. As for him saying, "everything is great, the company is doing great!" What else is he going to say? Even if they were ripping out the copper wiring and selling all their office supplies on eBay he'd still say the same thing.

lol :mrgreen:

SJ, I always wanted to ask you: is that what you do for a living? (the speculum thing, not ripping offices bare and selling everything ;) ).

[Sternjaeger II]

Bump - would like to see more votes going into this biased poll :mrgreen:

[Tree_UK]

Well the poll as proved one thing for sure in that it really doesn't matter what luthiers customers think or want because he really doesn't care a hoot.

[yellonet]

Wow, that's some biased poll...

[Feathered_IV]

Were all getting pretty burned out on here.(i know iam)

Same here. Not sure if I'm very interested in supporting further Maddox Games products, now that all the original members seem to have left.

To use a musical metaphor, it's a bit like being a fan of the band, Jefferson Airplane. They were truly great once, but out of loyalty alone should you continue to buy the albums of Jefferson Starship?

[David Hayward]

Well the poll as proved one thing for sure in that it really doesn't matter what luthiers customers think or want because he really doesn't care a hoot.

It's even worse than that. He is mocking you.

[furbs]

It's even worse than that. He is mocking you.


http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1805/cartmanasthepolicerespe.jpg
By furbs9999 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/furbs9999) at 2011-08-01

[albx]

It's even worse than that. He is mocking you.

reported

[David Hayward]

Sorry, I just think it's funny that the game's dev team is now mocking you. Is it against forum rules to agree with the dev team?

[furbs]

Lets see what the mods say about that.

[nearmiss]

These threads always turn into name calling and personal attacks.