Micro-Stutters

[adonys]

I just have a thought looking over some old threads I've posted regarding IL2CoD settings & performance back when we were struggling with making the beast take-off a few months ago, after the russian and then european release.

I keep hearing people complaining about microstutters, some of them with systems similar, or close enough with mine, and I didn't understood why, as I am not experiencing them at all, and that while running everything maxed out.

Have a look at this IL2 BoB - settings (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=19566) (it was for IL2 BoB which is the russian version of CoD) thread, please.

Have you guys disabled your Windows 7 paging file (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Change-the-size-of-virtual-memory)? Because Windows is known for using the swap file even if it has tons of memory free, and this might lead to the microstutters you all are complaining about..

PS: be warned though, you need at least 8 GB of memory to can do this in Windows 7 and play IL2CoD at the same time.

PPS: please note that also using IL2CoD max settings is needed in order to get rid of them (most importantly the unlimited buildings setting).

[JG52Krupi]

What an earth, why am I on your fanboy list...

[furbs]

LOL @Krupi!! fanboy, fanboy, fanboy!!

[David198502]

windows paging file?

[adonys]

I've added a link about how can you modify it for your Windows 7.

[Bryan21cag]

I tried this just now and here were my findings.

I disabled the windows paging file and then rebooted.

reboot went fine and all seemed normal.

I started the game (with UBI splash screen disabled)

the game started normally and i entered the London sight seeing tour ( Graphic settings on maximum with 1776x1000 res)

after load screen things seemed normal but then when i started flying around a bit i started noticing big flashes and graphic instability as things were rendering in the distance. The micro stutters were still there and it seemed to me that they even became a bit worse, but it was tough to tell with all the other flashing and craziness going on in the distance.

I then intentionally crashed into the bridge :P and upon hitting escape the game exited to windows and then would not let me get back into the game and then locked up when i tried to end the program from the task manager.

I then set it the paging file back to the way it was and rebooted again.

restated the game and things were back to there normal micro stutter selves with good fps (same settings as above).

Thanks for the tip but for me this didn't seem to help

thanks again
cheers :)

[LoBiSoMeM]

Please:

- DON'T DISABLE WINDOWS 7 PAGING FILE!

My two cents... W7 isn't so stupid: W7 only use this to low priority data if lots of RAM are available...

[adonys]

Theoretically, yes. Practically, even if the virtual memory usage algorithms are improved compared with Vista or older Windows versions, Windows 7 is still paging things just because it wants to, even if there are tons of RAM available.

I have the paging file disabled for more than 3 months already, and I had no problem whatsoever with it (and this while playing very demanding games, like Metro 2033, or IL2 CoD and so on).

Beside disabling the paging file, I've also set IL2 to start with administrative rights, fullscreen, and disabled the Vsync, visual themes and desktop composition. And the Windows indexing service.

And I have no microstutters at all, while all the others are complaining about them.

[klem]

Theoretically, yes. Practically, even if the virtual memory usage algorithms are improved compared with Vista or older Windows versions, Windows 7 is still paging things just because it wants to, even if there are tons of RAM available.

I have the paging file disabled for more than 3 months already, and I had no problem whatsoever with it (and this while playing very demanding games, like Metro 2033, or IL2 CoD and so on).

Beside disabling the paging file, I've also set IL2 to start with administrative rights, fullscreen, and disabled the Vsync, visual themes and desktop composition. And the Windows indexing service.

And I have no microstutters at all, while all the others are complaining about them.

Can you please expand on :-

Visual Theme. (I see, in right-click on Desktop, 'Personalise' which shows me My Themes (1) as an Unsaved Theme comprising my desktop background and an overlapping very simplified Window(?) image. I don't see 'disable'.

Desktop composition. (what's that?)

Windows indexing Service. (can't see that in Task Manager)

Is the Page File issue one of HDD read/write lag? If so how does an SSD perform and do I need to worry as I have one?

[LoBiSoMeM]

Theoretically, yes. Practically, even if the virtual memory usage algorithms are improved compared with Vista or older Windows versions, Windows 7 is still paging things just because it wants to, even if there are tons of RAM available.

http://lifehacker.com/5426041/understanding-the-windows-pagefile-and-why-you-shouldnt-disable-it

Windows 7 don't "page things just because it wants to, even if there are tons of RAM available". W7 will use the HD to store data not used, not CloD Launcher.exe... And will not page like crazy when flying... W7 recognizes when a priority application will need lots of RAM (like CLoD) and will free memory to it, if isn't so much available.

No effect at all in gaming, except placebo effect and possible system instability. I tested in all games - included CloD: same performance with/without page file. The only thing that become faster is cycle between aplications... If some like to alt+tab like crazy, it's good to disable the infamous virtual memory :)

And with only 4GB of RAM CloD can't run without virtual memory in W7 if you load missions with lots of things. W7 is very good managing physical memory when it's needed regards performance: if you have lots of RAM to run CloD, W7 will use all it. And if you don't have, W7 will "clean it up" and will let you use the amount available to run it.

Don't blame virtual memory for microstutters.

[adonys]

Go to ..\steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\ and right click on the Launcher.exe file and select properties. Go to Compatibility tab and check Disable visual themes, Disable desktop composition and Run this program as administrator.

By disabling the visual themes or desktop composition (I don't remember right now which of them), you might not be able to access the Save custom user settings window (as it 's a Windows window, so it would need those). You just uncheck that one when you need to save those, then check it back again, as you won't save those settings so often.

To disable Windows Indexing Service, you need to right click on My Computer, select Manage, then go to Service and Applications -> Services tree and look for the Windows Search service. Select it, right click on it and select properties and there put Startup type on Manual or Disabled and press the Stop button.

Paging file and virtual memory are exactly the same thing.

And it's not about the performance, you won't have higher FPS, it's about making sure you have everything in memory and while Il2CoD might thing he cached everything in memory, actually W7 might store some of those into the virtual memory, ie on HDD, and bringing those back into mem might cause the micro-stutters.

A SSD might help, but everyone advises to NOT use SSD for continuous (small) file writing (ie not for the paging file), as it will result in a fast degradation of SSD's performance and life span.

[LoBiSoMeM]

And it's not about the performance, you won't have higher FPS, it's about making sure you have everything in memory and while Il2CoD might thing he cached everything in memory, actually W7 might store some of those into the virtual memory, ie on HDD, and bringing those back into mem might cause the micro-stutters.

My God...

W7 won't "bring back into mem" useless or non-priority data when you fly CloD... If you have enough RAM all you need ASAP will be stored in it. If you don't have, virtual memory will save the day. Simple as that.

Well... another nonsense thread, as a lot in this forum... This talking about virtual memory settings is old, and the conclusion is easy:

- You don't achieve better performance in games when disable virtual memory.

And FPS compute these "micro-stutters", so, if your average FPS is the same, no gain at all...

Do some serious testing isolating only this variable (virtual memory) and come back.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Go to ..\steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\ and right click on the Launcher.exe file and select properties. Go to Compatibility tab and check Disable visual themes, Disable desktop composition and Run this program as administrator.

By disabling the visual themes or desktop composition (I don't remember right now which of them), you might not be able to access the Save custom user settings window (as it 's a Windows window, so it would need those). You just uncheck that one when you need to save those, then check it back again, as you won't save those settings so often.

With this, you only achieve that you can't reach load/save menus. As said before, W7 isn't stupid: Aero will be disabled if CLoD is running in fullscreen mode, with or without these settings. Another placebo thing.

[adonys]

Good. Thing is, with all these settings, and my system, I do NOT have microstutters. What about you?!!

[LoBiSoMeM]

Good. Thing is, with all these settings, and my system, I do NOT have microstutters. What about you?!!

GTX 560Ti 1GB and Texture and all settings in highest?

Don't you have microstutters? Or you are talking about this conf.ini you posted even with aircraft textures downgraded?

[adonys]

oh god, here we go again..

I am playing IL2 CoD latest Steam version with MAX SETTINGS (ie everything maxed out), on the system in my sig, with NO MICROSTUTTERS at all..

And while we're here, I am asking you: do you ever did Win 7 programming and had Win 7 under the hood knowledge needed for your work, or are you talking just from what you "know" from various internet websites, or M$ statements?

Because what I know, I know as a Windows game developer back from 2002 until today..

It obvious you don't have a deep knowledge about how M$'s operating system or its page file system is working in detail, but you're talking..

Be my guest, keep your virtual memory as long as you want to, but don't try to feed me up with your agresive "knowledge".

In the end, the results are the ones talking: I DO NOT have microstutters.. Do you?!! And why do you think I don't have them, because my system is a NASA one, or because of the way I know to tinker with it?!!

Just think a little bit, for god's sake..

[Sternjaeger II]

What an earth, why am I on your fanboy list...

LOL :mrgreen:

[Bryan21cag]

LOL :mrgreen:

lol:grin:

[JG52Krupi]

LOL :mrgreen:

Seriously :confused: I'm getting enraged by this accusation :lol:

Okay I admit I may have been a bit too defensive at times... but to be in a list with Carguy and David Hayward

[Bryan21cag]

Seriously :confused: I'm getting enraged by this accusation :lol:

Okay I admit I may have been a bit too defensive at times... but to be in a list with Carguy and David Hayward

i wouldn't take it too personally :) he may have read something you posted that disagreed with him personally and rage added you to the list:) its just his opinion. Its our own opinion of our self's that really matters at the end of the day.....................uh unless your a serial killer or something......... then i guess it doesn't matter if you think your a charming fellow or not lol well you get what i mean :P

[LoBiSoMeM]

oh god, here we go again..

I am playing IL2 CoD latest Steam version with MAX SETTINGS (ie everything maxed out), on the system in my sig, with NO MICROSTUTTERS at all..

And while we're here, I am asking you: do you ever did Win 7 programming and had Win 7 under the hood knowledge needed for your work, or are you talking just from what you "know" from various internet websites, or M$ statements?

Because what I know, I know as a Windows game developer back from 2002 until today..

It obvious you don't have a deep knowledge about how M$'s operating system or its page file system is working in detail, but you're talking..

Be my guest, keep your virtual memory as long as you want to, but don't try to feed me up with your agresive "knowledge".

In the end, the results are the ones talking: I DO NOT have microstutters.. Do you?!! And why do you think I don't have them, because my system is a NASA one, or because of the way I know to tinker with it?!!

Just think a little bit, for god's sake..

You don't have any microstutter regards texture streaming in 1GB VRAM card - everything maxed out - in actual build of CloD. In one GTX 560 Ti...

You are a "Windows game developer" but don't know how W7 work regards Aero/DirectX in fullscreen 3D aplication.

I need to keep my Virtual Memory because now I'm running with just 4GB RAM. In big missions in CloD with VM disable the commited amout of RAM exceeds 4GB. In less stressful missions, a lot of testings with/without VM enabled, motiroing resources: I still - OBVIOUSLY - experiencing more texture streaming issues in higher settings and "everything maxed out"... With textures set to "HIGH", even dogfights over London are OK. To run without stutters with textures on "Original", only reducing Land Detail to "medium". And with EVERYTHING on maximun in CloD actual build with a 560Ti, the "experience" wasn't fluid at all over London.

To be simple: all your placebo tweaks don't give ANY system this "boost" to reduce texture streaming issues in CloD using this VGA. Please, show some benchmarks of your claimings...

But disable this crap indexing service is cool. No big use for it, just resource waste most of time.

[JG52Krupi]

i wouldn't take it too personally :) he may have read something you posted that disagreed with him personally and rage added you to the list:) its just his opinion. Its our own opinion of our self's that really matters at the end of the day.....................uh unless your a serial killer or something......... then i guess it doesn't matter if you think your a charming fellow or not lol well you get what i mean :P

LOL im not too worried :D but reading my name in that list is like reading a paper and seeing a your name and picture on a list of suspected pedophiles.. :???:

[Tree_UK]

Krupi isn't a fan boy, he's just very passionate about the game, I have talked and flown with him recently and he's a good lad, definately not a fanny. :grin:

[adonys]

I told you only to do it if you have at least 8 GB of ram.. doh!

[LoBiSoMeM]

I told you only to do it if you have at least 8 GB of ram.. doh!

I can run CloD without VM with 4GB of RAM in quick mission of London freeflight with all settings maxed out. Enough for testing.

No gains at all with your amazing "tweaks". My HD wasn't working like crazy using VM. Maybe "M$" can hire you to redesign all OS memory management, you must try!

Please, show us benchmarks of your results, or post more info about all gains in gaming with VM disable in W7, please! I'm really curious...

[Zaltor]

I told you only to do it if you have at least 8 GB of ram.. doh!

I agree with LoBiSoMeM, infact you shouldnt disable page files under any O/S what you should do is set the initial and the max to the same value, that way it locks a sector of your HDD decreasing Seek times thus reducing stutters, The only time you should disable Paging is if you Have an SSD drive.

[adonys]

actually, if you want to keep the page file, you should:
- set it on another HDD than the one with the OS
- set it on it's own drive on that HDD (the first drive, with the clusters near the HDD's center are the best in terms of performance)
- the above points should be enough to make sure the page file it is not fragmented, but if you can't do the above points, then defrag the HDD/drive on which you want to set it, put it in there (thus the page file is not fragmented at creation) and lock it's size (custom size, min = max) in order to not have the OS fumble with it (to keep it not fragmented)

thing is: as it is SAFE & even ADVISABLE to disable the page file if you have a SSD, then logic should tell you you may run without it even if you don't have a SSD, but have enough memory.. rrrrright?!!

Things is this: the virtual memory concept is an OS mechanism to assure concurent running processes with enough memory, even if the RAM is not so big. Thus, it creates a virtual memory space (on which the RAM is mapped as a part, the rest of it being actually mapped on the paging file on your HDD) in which it allocates memory to all running processes. processes (& their threads) AND/OR data not ran/requested for a while are firstly moved from the RAM part of the virtual memory, to the HDD mapped part, and then back when they are needed (a process TRANSPARENT to the running processes (which know that they & their data are actually in "RAM" (actually VRAM)) and called swapping.

Windows OS tries to have free RAM all the time (just in case, even if all the running processes and their data would perfectly fit into RAM and still leave a lot of it free), and actually moves parts of the data of still running and having high CPU %time processes in the paging file as part of his "awesome and newly optimised" VRAM management routines. It did that in ALL M$ OSes and it still does in Win7 (though to a lesser degree than in the previous ones, it's true. they are really trying to fix and improve this mess).

Il2 CoD is trying to cache into RAM a very high amount of small files. As it is not using all of them all the time, some of them might be swapped by the OS into the paging file, and when IL2CoD requests them.. ooops! there's a RAM miss, and the OS is swapping them back into RAM from paging file. There you go, one possible explanation for IL2CoD's microstutters.

I've found out that disabling the paging file and aero theme and using max settings is the best combo will get rid of the infamous microstutters, for me at least.

I'm not trying to impress, or convince anyone, I was just sharing a thought I have regarding a possible explanation (and if you'll read my first post you will see I've said "Because Windows is known for using the swap file even if it has tons of memory free, and this might lead to the microstutters you all are complaining about..") and trying to help the others with my knowledge.

It seems like there's no need for that, and there are "smarter" ones knowing "better".

Be my guests, go on, you help them!

[David198502]

hey adonys!at least i appreciate your efforts to make the game more playable!
ignore this brick, he is screwing his vga all the time, but never posted something useful or constructive in this forum.

btw, : "Go to ..\steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover\ and right click on the Launcher.exe file and select properties. Go to Compatibility tab and check Disable visual themes, Disable desktop composition and Run this program as administrator.

By disabling the visual themes or desktop composition (I don't remember right now which of them), you might not be able to access the Save custom user settings window (as it 's a Windows window, so it would need those). You just uncheck that one when you need to save those, then check it back again, as you won't save those settings so often.

To disable Windows Indexing Service, you need to right click on My Computer, select Manage, then go to Service and Applications -> Services tree and look for the Windows Search service. Select it, right click on it and select properties and there put Startup type on Manual or Disabled and press the Stop button."

what will those two changes do to cod?is it advisable to try it even with less than 4gb of ram to disable the windows search service?what will "disabling visual themes" do to cod?
thx in advance for your answer.

[adonys]

Every other setting not related with paging file doesn't have anything to do with the amount of RAM, you can safely use then no matter what amount of RAM/page file you have.

The Windows search service is doing the indexing job (registering all the files on all your HDD's in index files, in order to speed up Windows' search function results (when you are using Windows' search function to find something on your system) and therefore constantly reading from all your HDDs and decreasing performance by using processors time and HDDs IO calls).

The others are just manually forcing off the Aero (which is a 3D interface) and Windows' desktop's visual enhancements while that program is running.

[JG52Uther]

Krupi isn't a fan boy, he's just very passionate about the game, I have talked and flown with him recently and he's a good lad, definately not a fanny. :grin:

Naaah he's a fanboy,and he's on my list as well. ;)

(kidding,just kidding...)

[JG52Krupi]

Naaah he's a fanboy,and he's on my list as well. ;)

(kidding,just kidding...)

Lol, Tbh I think I'm on his list now for derailing his thread :P

Good news is that I expect LobiSoMeM will also soon be on the list :lol:

[adonys]

no, the fanboy list is for the ones mindlessly bashing of the so-called "whiners" :) truth be told, your entry on that list was kind of lightly, but I was really enraged at the time of the deniers' behavior and trash. if a thing is black, no amount of screaming that "it's actually white" won't make me see it as being white too :P

that was not about money, I would have paid twice or even more the price i did (16$ for the russian version and 50£ for the european CE one) if they would have said "look, we can't go on, we're out of funds and the game is not done yet. please help us help you!" because that it would have been (treated) fair. but the way they are going now it is not, and they seems to not comprehend that this might be their doom, and with it the doom of something I found and still find enjoyable.

sorry for OT.

[David198502]

ok adonys thx!
...but to force aero to be off, isnt it enough to disable desktop composition in the launcher exe???

[adonys]

it should. "disable visual themes" will just prevent Windows visual themes altering the program's window.

[LoBiSoMeM]

I bought today a nem Mobo and 8GB of faster RAM, DDR3. Performance improve in CloD, of course. I tested with Aero/VM/Indexing and after disable all this settings.

Nothing happens regards "microstutters" or FPS. All the same: texture and land detail in highest settings = more texture streaming = no so great performance. Land detail = medium and/or texture = high, fluid gameplay.

I'm - because i'm a "brick" - still waiting some real magic tweak guide to optimize the crap W7...

Bye!

P.S. MAYBE Adonys have a more "fanboy" definition of microstutters in CloD... I'm a little more "whinner" regards this... :)

[Ataros]

I'm - because i'm a "brick" - still waiting some real magic tweak guide to optimize the crap W7...

Try Gamebooster, Gboost or similar free software to unload processes.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Try Gamebooster, Gboost or similar free software to unload processes.

Used all: no gain in games.

The game runs GREAT here, but I can't blame W7 tweaks for bad performance with everything maxed. Just having fun with this guy who said that runs with all settings in max and had no microstutters...

Wonderland!

[adonys]

right, I'm lying just to torment you, mate :)

[Blackdog_kt]

Guys, with the amount of different PC components and the still somewhat unstable nature of the sim, it's expected to have different experiences with similar tweaks.

Don't fret over it, something that works well for me might not have any tangible difference for someone else or might even give worse results, etc ;-)

[Ekar]

As I posted in the recent thread on the new beta Nvidia drivers (280.19), stuttering is much reduced on my system, I would say to the point where performance is not really an issue anymore. I was greatly surprised by this, as I imagined the problem to reside more on the game side than the driver side of things- but these drivers have really helped. I've even tested things out on some modified terrain texture maps which are twice the size of the default ones- and still all is well. I recommend Nvidia users who are struggling with performance to investigate these drivers, and also to post their thoughts in the forum.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=348513

(single gtx570, i7 2600k).

[yellonet]

Seriously :confused: I'm getting enraged by this accusation :lol:

Okay I admit I may have been a bit too defensive at times... but to be in a list with Carguy and David Hayward

You probably said something he doesn't agree to, as I seem to have :rolleyes:

[katdogfizzow]

As I posted in the recent thread on the new beta Nvidia drivers (280.19), stuttering is much reduced on my system, I would say to the point where performance is not really an issue anymore. I was greatly surprised by this, as I imagined the problem to reside more on the game side than the driver side of things- but these drivers have really helped. I've even tested things out on some modified terrain texture maps which are twice the size of the default ones- and still all is well. I recommend Nvidia users who are struggling with performance to investigate these drivers, and also to post their thoughts in the forum.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=348513

(single gtx570, i7 2600k).

Yes....this along with setting textures to HIGH from ORIGINAL helped me also.
(460s SLI, i7 2600k)
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=316416&postcount=89