why the gunnery is so much differnce between il2 and CloD?

[schnorchel]

I found that the Lead you need to take in CLoD is much smaller than that in il2 1946 in same condition. Which one is closer to real world? I doubt that from a pilot's point of view, no one can answer this question still lives this world.

[Danelov]

In this point IL-2 1946 is far superior to Clod. Another example, if you engage bombers with style Clod in your IL-2 1946, near 100 % certain you go down in flames and KIA by the gunners. In Clod the gunners are near of be passengers for a ride over Britain in the bombers. Another point to be revised.

[esmiol]

i don't agree at 100%

the IA of gunner is not very accuracy... but in il2 the gunner was too much accuracy.

the way to use gunner in CLOD is more realistic than in il2 but the IA need improvement. in my opinion even if in CLOD gunner need some improvement... in il2 they are not realistic at all...

[Bewolf]

Gunners in CoD certainly do not have to hind behind their IL2 brethren. Same genetic stock in regards to impossible accuracy sometimes.

That said, In my expirience the gunnery in CoD is very similar to IL2, I had zero problems adjusting to CoD here. As aircraft are a bit more "fluid" in regards to FM, aiming has become a bit harder, but that aside, lead is pretty similiar to IL2, at least in the 109.

[Danelov]

That depend also of the damage model and the number of parts of the model. I dont know how that works with Clod but as example, with CFS2 each part had a number of points in the DP file: engine for example can be 390, coolant reservoir 195, oil reservoir 205, aileron control cable 50, etc,etc,etc.
After the part is hit and the points are consumed, the part is considered as damaged or destroyed. With all points out of one vital part the plane go down. That work conected with the value of each bullet or shells from the weapons; as example the 0.303 bullet had a valour usually betweenn 7 or 8. A 20mm shell valour is 36, etc, etc.
Of course, that is CFS series, another world.

[JimmyBlonde]

Il-2 was very basic in terms of gunnery, muzzle velocities were slow and dispersion was minimal if it existed at all, damage models were also quite weak. Basically gunnery in Il-2 was 'easy mode'.

As for gunners, thank goodness somebody used their brains on this one, the inaccuracy of flexible mounted guns on aircraft is the reason that fixed guns were fitted to them in the first place. Flexible gunnery was just too hard, most gunner positions were a placebo and a deterrent rather than an actual effective means of defense.

Roland Garros anyone?

Besides, people who fly fighters have to learn their job so why should the bombers get a free ride from AI cheat gunners?

Well done MaddoxGames for realizing this, +several million for you and I will keep buying your games forever if you leave this as it is.

If people don't like not having super-sniper gunners then I suggest they brush up on their formation flying and take the time to climb and also to make friends with the many fighter pilots who are willing to provide an escort. Bombers attract target fixated noobs like flies and we love swatting them so, if you're not a complete tit about it, we'll probably give you some cover.

Get on TeamSpeak!

[von Pilsner]

I think Schnorchel means when he is shooting at someone, not the AI gunners' accuracy.

[Dano]

Seems the same to me, could be just that you're used to a different sight setting.

[schnorchel]

I think Schnorchel means when he is shooting at someone, not the AI gunners' accuracy.

Yes my meaning is the deflection shooting is very different in CLOD comparing with IL2.

[Ze-Jamz]

Dont aggree, I think your just not used to Clod yet..

Il21946 ai gunners are just too much, very un realistic I presume, as for ai gunners here I think it has a good balance, sometimes I can take down blennies with ease and hardly any resistance, then try with Wellingtons and get hammered very quickly.

The Wulrus for example, jump in a 109 and sit behind that for a while then tell me the ai gunners are useless...not so

[schnorchel]

Deflection shooting is the same, but careful how you're setting your gunsight up. Remember, the British sights are bugged, and actually set to 2x the distance of the ring. There's been threads about it, you need to set your sight to 400yds if you want it to actually aim at 200yds (or was it vice versa?!)
I never fly british AC, I am just talking about my feeling when I fly german planes.

[raaaid]

actually il2 early planes ammo is as weak as clods

[White Owl]

You know you can adjust the AI gunnery skill in all those bombers, right? If you think the default setting is too low, take a few minutes and tweak it yourself.

As far as the deflection shooting goes... I've always been a bad shot in '46 and maintain that tradition in Dover, but it seems to me it's slightly easier to get bullets on target in Dover.

[LoBiSoMeM]

You know you can adjust the AI gunnery skill in all those bombers, right? If you think the default setting is too low, take a few minutes and tweak it yourself.

As far as the deflection shooting goes... I've always been a bad shot in '46 and maintain that tradition in Dover, but it seems to me it's slightly easier to get bullets on target in Dover.

Thank's God someone wrote this before me...

As I said a lot, a buch jump here and write a lot and don't even look at FMB and all the settings you can change in CloD, all flexibility the engine provide... Please, all: take a look at all the settings possible in AI skill...

The AI gunners in IL-2 '46 are snipers. If you see any WWII footage, with guncams, you'll believe that fighters pilots atacking these bombers are crazy...

The gunnery in CloD is much more relistic. It's obvious... But the "golden standard" to some is the previous and now limited version of IL-2 series: 1946. In CloD our planes don't fly in "rails" and don't maneuver like Tie-Fighters anymore...

It's the life...

[JG5_emil]

In CloD our planes don't fly in "rails" and don't maneuver like Tie-Fighters anymore...

It's the life...

Yes!

[JG4_Helofly]

Maybe the gunnery feels different because in clod most weapons are small cal. machine guns. In Il2 1946 most planes have cannons.

[schnorchel]

Maybe the gunnery feels different because in clod most weapons are small cal. machine guns. In Il2 1946 most planes have cannons.


even the MG17 in il2 needs to take more lead to get the hit than in CLOD. Nobody feels that?

[steppie]

well how well the gun are depend what setting the map maker gave then, you can change the crew setting on bomber in the game.
you can have as
rookie
average
veteran
ace
custom.

and in custom you can change

basic flying
advance flying
awareness
aerial gunnery
tactics
vision
bravery
Discipline

You can also change what type of ammo the gunner and how much they have

And this setting is for all AI

[Blackdog_kt]

I also think the new gunners are better: there are still some that are good shots, tenacious and will kill you but there are also rookies that get scared and just fire blindly into the air missing you completely and hoping their barrage will make you turn away.

It's much more believable and seems closer to real life, just because of the variety alone.


As for the lead, it's a matter of speed. When i first tried RoF i was so used to high speed, high deflection snapshots from flying the Fw-190 in IL2 that i couldn't hit anything, these biplanes are so slow that minimal lead is required and i was shooting way ahead of them into empty air :-P

Our aircraft in BoB are also a bit slower than the later war hot-rods from IL2:1946 and even when comparing the same aircraft in each sim, it's a bit harder to get top speed due to the new flight models, the complex engine management, some FM issues that need correcting (most planes are a bit slower than they should) and the fact that the AI no longer fly on 100%+WEP all the time without overheating.

If we account for all these factors, an AI Hurricane passing in front of your 109's nose in a high deflection snapshot (let's say 70 degrees angle-off) in CoD might be quite a few km/h slower than a similar situation in IL2:1946, a human opponent online might be even slower if he isn't accustomed to the new CEM. Since he is slower, you also require less lead to hit him ;-)