the quality of this forum...

[Sternjaeger II]

...has never been so low before..

I'm surprised that many users have nothing better to do than bombing this place with utter nonsense or copy/paste whine. This together with the lack of news from 1C and the poor moderating (feel free to ban me/report me, I'm only expressing my personal view..), makes this forum a bloody shambles..

Come on guys..

[BigPickle]

I hear you but you know this post will only invite more shambles. Though I feel Its important to be light hearted otherwise this situ will get you down.

[kristorf]

I am afraid to say I must agree regarding this forum.

Almost any post degenerates into a slagging match with very little or no relevance to CoD or news of such.

I have spoken to several people who are of the same opinion and we have all said (at differant times) that we now look for are (very rare) update news but do not post as its not worth it.

[Ali Fish]

i agree, half the time im on the fence because im so disheartened about the whole affair. i have tried to be constructive in so many areas but the patience and energy required has diminished completely. today though im just that bit more sad about it all given the amount of rubbish ive woken upto,

The developers or people who mind this place are at fault and no wonder. It is actually a direct reflection upon the state of the sim. Not to mention the Anarchic nature of the human in times of unhappyness.

[Phazon]

Sternjaeger tell us what we are supposed to talk about. We can't discuss our MP experiences because it doesn't work properly. We can't discuss our SP experiences because there is no real SP to talk about. Not everyone wants to get into the FMB or make movies.

The only thing left to discuss is bugs and speculation as to what on earth is going on since we have heard nothing for 18 days. The only person to blame is 1C for not keeping us informed as to when we'll get our sim game.

[Ploughman]

Darn right. I pop in to see other peoples skins and how some of the mods are coming on, but otherwise its so rammed with mean spirited whiners spamming the boards who would want to linger?

[BigPickle]

Absolutely, so be light hearted about it and have tollerance, people act like bells because they are sad and dissapointed. It'll be all over soon probably.

[Ataros]

The only person to blame is 1C for not keeping us informed as to when we'll get our sim game.

Your publisher is UBI. This is not UBI forums.

ps. There are bug is the game btw. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=23405

[Phazon]

I'm referring to 1C as in the developer. Maddox Games = 1C.

[the Dutchman]

As long as the "Shut us all up" patch hasn't been released it will continue......:wink:

[Tree_UK]

The quality of the forum reflects the game.

[Bobb4]

If you are not into intelectual irony and brinkmanship, read no further, you will be bored to tears. ;)

When a bush fire starts, it spreads with devastating speed. It feeds on everything on its path and bludgeons into a nearly unmanageable conflagration until after days of back breaking work, it is finally brought under control.

The destruction it leaves behind is often severe. But when investigations into its cause commence, it is often found that the cause was a tiny spark caused by a seemingly harmless source.

A bush fire is a perfect allegory to a problem that has been plaguing businesses all over the world. It’s called Negative Publicity and it drives firms into having daylight nightmares.

What it is
Negative Publicity is the adverse publicity that a firm may incur due to a particular reason, which may lead to potentially disastrous consequences. It results in the firm’s reputation among its customers and competitors being badly tarnished. Needless to say, it hurts business real bad.

What causes it
Like the tiny spark that can start a bush fire, the causes of negative publicity can be various:

Disillusioned (ex) employee
Angry customers
Misleading interpretations of blogs/forum posts/interview excerpts
Mischief mongers spreading unsubstantiated rumors.
While an allegation might be true, more often than not its the unsubstantiated rumors that inflict more damage.

Why it spreads
This is a classic quagmire. A firm can spend millions on promoting itself online through endless publicity campaigns. It places advertisements, sponsors discussion boards, forums et al till its name is well known to all those who matter. Then all of a sudden, one stray comment on how the last blog post by the firm’s CEO hurt the sentiment of a potential customer surfaces. Like all things that should not spread, it snowballs and garners attention from everyone who thinks he is somebody. The forums are now pasted with hate mail and the firm loses face overnight. The very tool of publicity, the Internet, has stung back and stung deep.

As Winston Churchill once said :

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”

That is the problem with Internet. It gets word around faster than anything else. In the good old days of verbal communication, negative publicity was not the worst that could happen. It could be quarantined. With the Internet, the only way that is possible is by pulling the plug on the entire world.

Another important factor is people’s vulnerability.

Eg: Imagine a firm that sells baby diapers. Its product is popular and soaks up more than half of its customers’ discomforts. Unknown to its customers, it had to let go one of its employees who claimed mistreatment at the hands of the firm’s administration. He was unsuccessful at proving himself but had to be let go because he was now ‘malware’ for the firm.

Jobless and disgruntled, he vows to get back at the firm and starts a rumor about the potential health hazards of its diapers. The rumors claim unhealthy amounts of bleach to be present in the diaper linings. If exposed to frequently, it may result in irreparable skin damage and chemical poisoning in both the baby and its caretaker.

For a scientifically informed and inclined population, such rumors are meaningless. But just how willing the average mother is to let science disprove the rumor, especially when it concerns her baby’s health is well known. Every mother in the country is shocked. The husbands too are alarmed at the dangers their wives and babies will be exposed to. The diaper firm is sued for millions within a week.

Effects

Clearly, business does not flourish under negative publicity.
Firms may have to call back all their products.
Shares of the firm may take a frightening dip.
All of the above may even lead to the firm having to shell out millions as compensation, and the venture might even go bust.
How do you counter it?
The golden rule is- Don’t Panic! Here’s what you should do if ever if you have to :

Look into the problem
Identify the cause if it’s not obvious. Get experts to verify/debunk any claims/rumors before making a public statement.

Work out a plan of counterattack
Get the best minds from within your firm and if need be, hire professionals from outside(say, a professional negative publicity management firm) to come out with convincing statements to counter allegations.

Give out concrete proofs of safe-practices
The best way to gain face is to quash unsubstantiated rumors with hard hitting facts. Stage numerous public demonstrations proving your point. Use the power of the Internet to reach out. This might be tricky if you really are the defaulter. In that case, get the best minds to mitigate the damage as best as possible.

Follow up progress continually
After the initial storm has subsided, do not let up with re-building your image. Come out with attractive offers, make the customers take a tour of the production plant if relevant, get experts to vouch for your products, the works. Once dented, your image will be vulnerable to attacks for some time to come.


Prevention always works better though

“A stitch in time saves nine”

Of course, your aim should always be to steer clear of such occurrences completely. Dedicate a team to keep a sharp eye on all fronts, including the Internet(blogs, forums, social networks, search engine rankings, websites of competitors etc), for any comments or developments that might turn ugly. Although it can never be all-encompassing, it’s better to be aware of possibilities than being caught unawares.

Not my own work, jus someting interesting I read, but clearly a lesson 1c, Maddox Games and Ubisoft could learn from.
I pity the poor sod that has to transalte this into Russian for Luthier ;)

[Ataros]

I'm referring to 1C as in the developer. Maddox Games = 1C.

Devs do not make such decisions and UBI does not share communications budget with them.

Devs only program and model. All communication and support is done by publisher. UBI supports their forums from this money you paid them they do not share it with 1C.

Devs do not decide on release date. Publisher does. It is publishers responsibility to inform customers of release and communicate with them providing any support.

[BigPickle]

I pity the poor sod that has to transalte this into Russian for Luthier ;)

They wont mate because i think they are just plain not interested.

I've pretty much been saying the same thing from the start. The state of the game dont matter in truth, as long as the communication is there, which in turn makes the customer feel valued etc and heads off any danger at the pass.
Sad thing is they started down the absolute right path with July1st update, but then it stopped. Best update we had since launch.

[Doc_uk]

...has never been so low before..

I'm surprised that many users have nothing better to do than bombing this place with utter nonsense or copy/paste whine. This together with the lack of news from 1C and the poor moderating (feel free to ban me/report me, I'm only expressing my personal view..), makes this forum a bloody shambles..

Come on guys..I hang my head in shame:rolleyes:

[BP_Tailspin]

the quality of this forum...has never been so low before..
And the root cause of this is ?

...I'm surprised that many users have nothing better to do than bombing this place with utter nonsense or copy/paste whine..
Some people just have nothing positive to say …

...This together with the lack of news from 1C and the poor moderating..
Your not complaining are you … I think the moderators do an excellent job.

... (feel free to ban me/report me, I'm only expressing my personal view..), makes this forum a bloody shambles..
“I'm only expressing my personal view” as are others, but there views are different than yours, that’s all …

...Come on guys..
Come on Sternjaeger …

[BigPickle]

thats fighting talk, lets get it, owwn! lol only joking :)

[Ali Fish]

What is a good idea is a seperate thread area for announcements. That way those unwilling to bear the rest of the chat can subscribe to that area and recieve email for when there is a real announcement and not suffer from any part of the forum they themselves deem inapproriate for themselves.

Another good idea is to simply give a major topic not 1 topic but 2, the positives and the negatives. if we seperate the 2 and the basis for discussing them given the amount of negativity we can subject ourselves to what we really want to be reading about. and the developers can filter the information more effectivly Because that is probally why they dont come here much, Its imppossible for them to do there job in this forum climate.

[JG52Uther]

Once the game is fixed I shall be flying, not posting.
That was my original plan anyway.
Look at it another way, if it wasn't for all the rubbish/amusing stuff/whining/fanboiism (delete as appropriate) there would be absolutely nothing to talk about here...
Personally I think the forum has been much better the last few days, at least its been amusing.

[BigPickle]

thanks mate i do try :) TBH i agree the tom foolery we had yesterday broke the tension.

[pupaxx]

Hi Stern,
What makes me most unhappy is that those who, until last friday at 18.00pm, condemned the behavior of those whining, now do the same thing. So, to all whiners, take advantage of the moment and join the chorus! before the hangover passes...Nobody will blame u for doing. (I hope)

BTW..I take advantage for first.
yesterday in late afternoon I was logged on Repka server, we were only 7!very sad...at least there were 2 Do17 (AI) and the usual 4 Stukas (AI).
The feeling was like the ending of Closterman 'Big Circus' (for those who has read it)...resigned mood in general.

I'll spare you the considerations about flying over bad-looking terrain etc..

Switched to Il2-UP3.0
Cheers

[Rattlehead]

i agree the tom foolery we had yesterday broke the tension.

Chuck was not amused.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp161/neal1972/chucknorris.jpg

[jimbop]

Devs do not make such decisions and UBI does not share communications budget with them.

Devs only program and model. All communication and support is done by publisher. UBI supports their forums from this money you paid them they do not share it with 1C.

Devs do not decide on release date. Publisher does. It is publishers responsibility to inform customers of release and communicate with them providing any support.

This forum has always been the (English) source of news for IL-2 including CoD. Luthier has chosen to post development updates here. Luthier commented that he would try and post updates here on Fridays. It is simply not true that these devs only program and model - they have engaged in PR on this very forum for years.

It is perfectly reasonable to expect some information on this site. If this has changed they should let us know.

[nearmiss]

LOL

You guys crack me up

This forums have nothing to do with the BOB COD, except to be a place to talk about it.

Now the US release is out, afaik. Maybe things will change, maybe not.

Everyone complained about Ubisoft forums, for years now.
The parents complain about the profanity.
Everyone wants his "thing" fixed.
Some members want developers to keep open discussion, but others only want to rag on them.

Where did civil discussion go? It melted into oblivion?

Too many people hang out on this forums because they really are anxious about their favorite air combat sim. Most of us understand that, but the more they hang out the more discussion degrades to worthless banter.

There are those type of posters that we all know from real life that just complain and whine, walk around with a half empty glass. No way we can ferret out the winners from the losers, except over time we do form our opinions of them.

Not picking on any person with this posting, because everyone is entitled to say something as long as they try to stay within the rules of this forums. The rules were documented to provide some guide to facilitating civil discussions among members. That is all they are there for.

Blaming the forums is stupid. It's about the members of the forums that make them what they are, nothing more nothing less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0DnuRKtF8

[Sternjaeger II]

Sternjaeger tell us what we are supposed to talk about. We can't discuss our MP experiences because it doesn't work properly. We can't discuss our SP experiences because there is no real SP to talk about. Not everyone wants to get into the FMB or make movies.

The only thing left to discuss is bugs and speculation as to what on earth is going on since we have heard nothing for 18 days. The only person to blame is 1C for not keeping us informed as to when we'll get our sim game.

I agree, and as a customer I feel ripped off too, but a few things are obvious:

1) we won't get our money back
2) there's nothing on par with this sim, buggy as it is, at the moment.
3) the game will get better, like other sims did, with a suffering start and an improving quality.

it's not the whining per se, it's the elaborated stuff like "here what tracers look like, I've seen them in Pearl Harbor" or "this game is XXXX" and then you look at the user's rig and realise he has a good one for IL-2, but not for CoD.

And yes, I'm sure that if there was more feedback and interaction from Luthier & Co. there would be way less whining, but guys, stop for a second and look at the potential of the game you have installed.. it's infinitely superior to ANY simulation out there, this is a fact. Improvements will come with better rigs and patches, I think we're just at the troubled dawn of a superb simulation, and that's probably what Luthier is worried about: it's not the petty stuff, it's the grand scheme. Picking up on Oleg's role must have been a HUGE challenge, and yes, most of us think he's making a HUGE mistake in not delivering serious, regular updates, but all we can do is wait and hope they'll polish what I look at as a rough diamond.

And the root cause of this is ?

The root cause is the users and the lack of updates. I always looked at ww2 sims as a niche market, and I'm glad that there actually are a lot of people that find it fascinating. I also appreciate that not all of us are literate on the subject, both under a historical an technical point of view, so why going with all the technical/historical speculation, based mostly on one's assumption?! Reading that day after day is really really annoying..


Some people just have nothing positive to say …

agreed, so instead of whining on something that has been flagged already, they can search the forum for similar threads, read and STFU..

Your not complaining are you … I think the moderators do an excellent job.

opinions man, it's yours vs mine, I think that mods are doing a random job, it's like they check only every now and then, give a general rather gross sweep (without following the forum rules themselves: before ANY banning they should send a warning) and go back to whatever they're doing..

“I'm only expressing my personal view” as are others, but there views are different than yours, that’s all …

Come on Sternjaeger …

I take views and respect everybody's, as long as they're literate and make sense. I reckon there should be an option to filter posts according to forum members' age..

[No145_Hatter]

It's like eharmony or match.com.

A bunch of losers who desperately need to get laid.

[carguy_]

I reckon there should be an option to filter posts according to forum members' age..
You kidding? The majority of those boohoo-my-game-is-broken moaners are mid 20s to mid 50s losers who don`t know anything else to enjoy than whats going on on their monitor.

[JG52Uther]

You kidding? The majority of those boohoo-my-game-is-broken moaners are mid 20s to mid 50s losers who don`t know anything else to enjoy than whats going on on their monitor.

What a loser! ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

LOL

You guys crack me up

This forums have nothing to do with the BOB COD, except to be a place to talk about it.

Now the US release is out, afaik. Maybe things will change, maybe not.

Everyone complained about Ubisoft forums, for years now.
The parents complain about the profanity.
Everyone wants his "thing" fixed.
Some members want developers to keep open discussion, but others only want to rag on them.

Where did civil discussion go? It melted into oblivion?

Too many people hang out on this forums because they really are anxious about their favorite air combat sim. Most of us understand that, but the more they hang out the more discussion degrades to worthless banter.

There are those type of posters that we all know from real life that just complain and whine, walk around with a half empty glass. No way we can ferret out the winners from the losers, except over time we do form our opinions of them.

Not picking on any person with this posting, because everyone is entitled to say something as long as they try to stay within the rules of this forums. The rules were documented to provide some guide to facilitating civil discussions among members. That is all they are there for.

Blaming the forums is stupid. It's about the members of the forums that make them what they are, nothing more nothing less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0DnuRKtF8

Nearmiss, you have quite a big mileage in terms of forum moderating, and you know better than me that everybody's a hero behind a keyboard. I had violent menaces via PM by a delusional forum member over a very silly thing not so long ago, which really made me think about how these places sometimes take the worst out of us.
In my own delusional view of a forum, I always thought that it could be a place to meet people with similar interests, share knowledge, ask questions and find answers. A place where people would be respectful, post intelligent comments and help developers into further developing the game. I experienced it with the beta of Rise of Flight, it was an enclosed number of people, yes, but it was brilliant to interact directly with the developers.

This is (in theory) the closest place to interact with developers, and that's the spirit with which I joined this forum more than any other, because I was hoping that my experience and knowledge could be put to use, but apparently they know better..

[BigPickle]

You kidding? The majority of those boohoo-my-game-is-broken moaners are mid 20s to mid 50s losers who don`t know anything else to enjoy than whats going on on their monitor.

You are such a massive bell

[yellonet]

Where are the mods?
They should deal out a few permabans and straighten this out.
This behavior could only be damaging to sales and the reputation of 1c.
One would think that some discipline would be in the best interest of 1c.

[White Owl]

Irrationally hating IL-2: Dover has become a religion for some. To a lesser extent, irrationally loving the game is also a religion for a few here. (Everybody has at least one religion, whether they realize it or not.) When you're trying to have a conversation with somebody who zealously practices a religion opposed to your own point of view, the big problem is the zealot is incapable of stepping back and reconsidering his own point of view. He genuinely believes he is being perfectly reasonable in aggressive proselytizing, and it's for your own good. The only solution is to not engage the zealots and look around for somebody more open minded to talk to. They can be harder to find, but they're out there.

Also, there's a subtle difference between a troll and an attention... word-that-means-prostitute. Learn to differentiate, and resist the impulse to give either of them what they crave. Getting angry at them serves no useful purpose. Ignore and move on.

[Ze-Jamz]

You kidding? The majority of those boohoo-my-game-is-broken moaners are mid 20s to mid 50s losers who don`t know anything else to enjoy than whats going on on their monitor.

Tool:rolleyes:

[David198502]

Your such a massive bell, why do you always have to insult people:-P

probably because of the same reason why he has to have a fancy sports car.:grin:

[Rattlehead]

I had violent menaces via PM by a delusional forum member over a very silly thing not so long ago

Unfortunately the internet is full of freaks.

[Jatta Raso]

You kidding? The majority of those boohoo-my-game-is-broken moaners are mid 20s to mid 50s losers who don`t know anything else to enjoy than whats going on on their monitor.

i'm starting to like this guy, he's always good for a laugh

[nearmiss]

Do any of you remember the Ray Ban Jockey on Ubizoo?

This guy drove us all nuts, yet everyone missed him when he split.

What makes community?

It's not about all the competent, intelligent well thought out responses is it?

It's about everyone being different, some smart mouths, some with slow wit, some with quick wit, some with no wits, etc.

This is really an excellent forums, because we have voices speaking up from all over the world. We may not all agree, but basically we do get along. I love it we can speak with other members from all over the world, and share things with some common interest.

Yes, I realize it's English language. I'm sure there are some that would prefer their native language, but there are always forums in native languages all over the web.

This is a international forums, where people from all over the world that do comprehend English can talk and share.

[Ze-Jamz]

Do any of you remember the Ray Ban Jockey on Ubizoo?

This guy drove us all nuts, yet everyone missed him when he split.

What makes community?

It's not about all the competent, intelligent well thought out responses is it?

It's about everyone being different, some smart mouths, some with slow wit, some with quick wit, some with not wits, etc.

This is really an excellent forums, because we have voices speaking up from all over the world. We may not all agree, but basically we do get along. I love it we can speak with other members from all over the world, and share things with some common interest.

Yes, I realize it's English language. I'm sure there are some that would prefer their native language, but there are always forums in native languages all over the web.

This is a international forums, where people from all over the world that do comprehend English can talk and share.

http://yampotw.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/clap-copy_011.jpg

[addman]

Do any of you remember the Ray Ban Jockey on Ubizoo?

This guy drove us all nuts, yet everyone missed him when he split.

What makes community?

It's not about all the competent, intelligent well thought out responses is it?

It's about everyone being different, some smart mouths, some with slow wit, some with quick wit, some with not wits, etc.

This is really an excellent forums, because we have voices speaking up from all over the world. We may not all agree, but basically we do get along. I love it we can speak with other members from all over the world, and share things with some common interest.

Yes, I realize it's English language. I'm sure there are some that would prefer their native language, but there are always forums in native languages all over the web.

This is a international forums, where people from all over the world that do comprehend English can talk and share.

This is a good post.

[roadczar]

The beatings will continue until morale improves! ;)

[Rattlehead]

This is really an excellent forums, because we have voices speaking up from all over the world. We may not all agree, but basically we do get along. I love it we can speak with other members from all over the world, and share things with some common interest.



This is so true. As a kid or young teen, I always wished I could meet other people who liked the same games I did, or just speak to people about common interests, whatever they were. Yes I had friends, but I mean a big community.
The 'net has given us all a voice (not always a good thing!:)) and it's great that we can all discuss things without having to mail a letter and wait ages for a reply.
If I could change one small thing on this forum, it would be to have an off-topic forum (or at least a thread) on the main page. I know the 1c forums has an off-topic forum, but I've grown used to the members on this forum. No big deal I suppose, just saying.

[Ze-Jamz]

This is so true. As a kid or young teen, I always wished I could meet other people who liked the same games I did, or just speak to people about common interests, whatever they were. Yes I had friends, but I mean a big community.
The 'net has given us all a voice (not always a good thing!:)) and it's great that we can all discuss things without having to mail a letter and wait ages for a reply.
If I could change one small thing on this forum, it would be to have an off-topic forum (or at least a thread) on the main page. I know the 1c forums has an off-topic forum, but I've grown used to the members on this forum. No big deal I suppose, just saying.

A 'Banter' forum..

[Sternjaeger II]

If I could change one small thing on this forum, it would be to have an off-topic forum (or at least a thread) on the main page. I know the 1c forums has an off-topic forum, but I've grown used to the members on this forum. No big deal I suppose, just saying.

+1.
I asked before, they stubbornly keep on pointing us to the generic off topic forum, they don't seem to understand that we want our own off topic forum.

[Blackdog_kt]

The quality of the forum reflects the game.

The quality of the forum reflects the average quality of the posters. There are problems in the game but when so many are so busy with the negative stuff that don't even dare to delve into whatever actually works as it should (and there is such a thing, if you haven't found out about it you're just not looking or don't care to find it), this "i want to be disappointed" attitude spills over into the forums, it's like a teenage suicide cult seeking new converts with all the "you're not having fun with the game, you're just too much of a fanboy to realize it" rhetoric, as if they know what each individual member of the community is looking for and prioritizes in a game :-P

Personally, if i were to rank my pet peeves with the sim, the topics that get the most exposure (SLI/Crossfire, FSAA, sound engine) would be on the "almost don't give a you know what" part of the scale, while things like inconsistent controls and missing/not working aircraft systems would be ranking at first place, but you won't see me calling people idiots for having a fit over a non-antialiased radio aerial. People have different priorities and there's a vocal minority here that has a great deal of difficulty accepting this. Too bad for them i guess, because it's obvious that they don't represent everyone and on top of that, the more aggressively they try to push their agenda the more some level headed guys will become aggressive in return and campaign for their own set of preferred fixes to take precedence.

Remember when some of us were advocating optional clickable cockpits during development, so that we don't have to map and remember a gazillion different functions for all the new aircraft systems? A big part of the community was convinced, the developers were convinced, even some people posted here and thanked us for advocating something that at the point seemed pointless to them.

My point being, i can argue for a certain feature with the necessary consistency and do it without insulting people, so that i end up getting "converts to the cause" but i haven't been busting everyone's fuzzy dice on every single thread left and right to get them to fix my preferred issues ahead of everything else.

Seeing the tactics prevailing in the forum, maybe i was wrong. Maybe i should take up a forum campaign to have all the system modeling issues in every single flyable fixed before SLI and FSAA optimizations, just to get on some people's nerves and give them a taste of their own medicine.

I bet it will be infinitely easier to do for the developers as well, since most of the times it's simply some mismatched switches or a missing function in one aircraft that can be directly copied over from another one. I bet it's so much easier to do than fix FSAA and optimize texture loading and it carries enough weight in the gameplay side of things, that we might stand a very good chance of convincing the developers they should focus on that. The only thing that's stopping me is that it's summer time and i can't be bothered spending the weekends in front of the PC, but if the usual suspects keep repeating their rants and the game isn't fixed by mid-August i might just take up the crusade just to grind their gears and show them for once what it's like for the rest of us to be on the receiving end of their barrage :-P

Sure, there are problems in the game and there's a couple dozen things i'd personally like to see changed or improved, but let's call a spade a spade here: some people have drummed up a whole lot of disruptive commotion, driven away whatever positive minded, contributing members, therefore putting a stop to whatever 3rd party/community improvements and involvement existed in spite of all the problems, and now they claim it's not because of their attitudes but something else.

I generally try to be smooth around the edges but maybe it detracts from getting the message across, so i think it's time to hammer the point home for once. If some people feel neglected by the developers they should at least not drive away whatever community members are working to improve THEIR gameplay experience. In other words, the best piece of advice i could offer to the nameless "whiner" of this forum is:

"If you can't present your complaints in a useful, non-aggravating way then either shut up for a while as the rest of the community tries to fix the game for you, or get stuck with a forever broken game and be forced to shut up once and for all because there'll be nothing to complain about in the long run. Your choice." :-P


In other words,

Irrationally hating IL-2: Dover has become a religion for some. To a lesser extent, irrationally loving the game is also a religion for a few here. (Everybody has at least one religion, whether they realize it or not.) When you're trying to have a conversation with somebody who zealously practices a religion opposed to your own point of view, the big problem is the zealot is incapable of stepping back and reconsidering his own point of view. He genuinely believes he is being perfectly reasonable in aggressive proselytizing, and it's for your own good. The only solution is to not engage the zealots and look around for somebody more open minded to talk to. They can be harder to find, but they're out there.

Also, there's a subtle difference between a troll and an attention... word-that-means-prostitute. Learn to differentiate, and resist the impulse to give either of them what they crave. Getting angry at them serves no useful purpose. Ignore and move on.

a big +1 to the preceding quote.

[furbs]

Blackdog, i like you.

But you do know that Luthier hasnt logged in here, or at the Russian forum since the 1st of July right?

The guy isn't listening to us at all.

Whats the point of posting a bug thread if the guys not reading it.

[David Hayward]

Blackdog, i like you.

But you do know that Luthier hasnt logged in here, or at the Russian forum since the 1st of July right?

The guy isn't listening to us at all.

Whats the point of posting a bug thread if the guys not reading it.


I don't blame him. This forum has become a steaming pile.

[Anvilfolk]

Hear hear, Blackdog.

furbs: Or maybe he doesn't automatically log in as Luthier. Instead, he pops in his head as a guest (to avoid a dozen threads like "LUTHIER WAS HERE AND DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING!!!!11one WE ARE ABANDONED!!!!11one"), sees donkeys and goats all around, a majority of threads created by the same half-a-dozen people with the same useless message as far as game development is concerned, and just doesn't bother.

I know I wouldn't.

<cue in the funny "haha" Cartman reported image>

[carguy_]

Whats the point of posting a bug thread if the guys not reading it.
You can`t possibly know that.

Right on, Antiwilvolk. The half-dozen crowd seems to present a behaviour of building quality by quantity of posts. Like little cells connecting. Little do they know, that doesn`t add anything to the spamfest they have created.

[BigPickle]

You can`t possibly know that.

Right on, Antiwilvolk. The half-dozen crowd seems to present a behaviour of building quality by quantity of posts. Like little cells connecting. Little do they know, that doesn`t add anything to the spamfest they have created.

We love you
http://mlkshk.com/r/1M8

[AARPRazorbacks]

We love you
http://mlkshk.com/r/1M8

BIGpickle,
Are you making more sound mods for the sim?

[nearmiss]

Ataros

Don't know what you are talking about. There is no block on your IP here.

Your problem is somewhere else

[Ataros]

Ataros

Don't know what you are talking about. There is no block on your IP here.

Your problem is somewhere else

Thanks!
Could not connect for 1-2 hours with error "connection to server reset while trying to load page"
But through proxy it was OK. Strange.

Removed the post.

[Jatta Raso]

THEY HAVE CREATED??? time for philosophy and amnesia...

[JG52Krupi]

The quality of the forum reflects the average quality of the posters. There are problems in the game but when so many are so busy with the negative stuff that don't even dare to delve into whatever actually works as it should (and there is such a thing, if you haven't found out about it you're just not looking or don't care to find it), this "i want to be disappointed" attitude spills over into the forums, it's like a teenage suicide cult seeking new converts with all the "you're not having fun with the game, you're just too much of a fanboy to realize it" rhetoric, as if they know what each individual member of the community is looking for and prioritizes in a game :-P

Personally, if i were to rank my pet peeves with the sim, the topics that get the most exposure (SLI/Crossfire, FSAA, sound engine) would be on the "almost don't give a you know what" part of the scale, while things like inconsistent controls and missing/not working aircraft systems would be ranking at first place, but you won't see me calling people idiots for having a fit over a non-antialiased radio aerial. People have different priorities and there's a vocal minority here that has a great deal of difficulty accepting this. Too bad for them i guess, because it's obvious that they don't represent everyone and on top of that, the more aggressively they try to push their agenda the more some level headed guys will become aggressive in return and campaign for their own set of preferred fixes to take precedence.

Remember when some of us were advocating optional clickable cockpits during development, so that we don't have to map and remember a gazillion different functions for all the new aircraft systems? A big part of the community was convinced, the developers were convinced, even some people posted here and thanked us for advocating something that at the point seemed pointless to them.

My point being, i can argue for a certain feature with the necessary consistency and do it without insulting people, so that i end up getting "converts to the cause" but i haven't been busting everyone's fuzzy dice on every single thread left and right to get them to fix my preferred issues ahead of everything else.

Seeing the tactics prevailing in the forum, maybe i was wrong. Maybe i should take up a forum campaign to have all the system modeling issues in every single flyable fixed before SLI and FSAA optimizations, just to get on some people's nerves and give them a taste of their own medicine.

I bet it will be infinitely easier to do for the developers as well, since most of the times it's simply some mismatched switches or a missing function in one aircraft that can be directly copied over from another one. I bet it's so much easier to do than fix FSAA and optimize texture loading and it carries enough weight in the gameplay side of things, that we might stand a very good chance of convincing the developers they should focus on that. The only thing that's stopping me is that it's summer time and i can't be bothered spending the weekends in front of the PC, but if the usual suspects keep repeating their rants and the game isn't fixed by mid-August i might just take up the crusade just to grind their gears and show them for once what it's like for the rest of us to be on the receiving end of their barrage :-P

Sure, there are problems in the game and there's a couple dozen things i'd personally like to see changed or improved, but let's call a spade a spade here: some people have drummed up a whole lot of disruptive commotion, driven away whatever positive minded, contributing members, therefore putting a stop to whatever 3rd party/community improvements and involvement existed in spite of all the problems, and now they claim it's not because of their attitudes but something else.

I generally try to be smooth around the edges but maybe it detracts from getting the message across, so i think it's time to hammer the point home for once. If some people feel neglected by the developers they should at least not drive away whatever community members are working to improve THEIR gameplay experience. In other words, the best piece of advice i could offer to the nameless "whiner" of this forum is:

"If you can't present your complaints in a useful, non-aggravating way then either shut up for a while as the rest of the community tries to fix the game for you, or get stuck with a forever broken game and be forced to shut up once and for all because there'll be nothing to complain about in the long run. Your choice." :-P


In other words,



a big +1 to the preceding quote.

+1 Blackdog you are my hero :grin:, its a pity that your post seem to go to waste.. a few days back I decided not to bother retorting to the more misguided members of this forum. I still read threads but unfortunately there are fewer and fewer decent threads on this forum and any that border on reasonable are dragged down and quickly descend into anarchy...

[furbs]

You can`t possibly know that.

Right on, Antiwilvolk. The half-dozen crowd seems to present a behaviour of building quality by quantity of posts. Like little cells connecting. Little do they know, that doesn`t add anything to the spamfest they have created.

What in the Russian forum too?

What i know is this...he posted the last patch, said some stuff would be released shortly then didn't post a bug thread for it.
Came back and posted the pics of the team the week after.
Again didn't say anything about the bugs in the last patch or the bug thread and hasn't been seen for 3 weeks here or the Russian forum.
Now his sim has just been released in the biggest market in the world for COD and they haven't said a word anywhere.

Now doesn't that seem even a tad strange for a game developer to not post anything anywhere in the world on their biggest release day ever?

[JG52Krupi]

What in the Russian forum too?

Give it a rest furbs, un-bunch your panties.

[Jatta Raso]

this's the situation as i see it: some days ago a fair share of the actual 'rioters' were trying to seriously discuss important aspects of the sim such as the landscape and trying to propose ways of making it better etc..

well their threads were trolled to death by the famous few, and barely anyone moved a straw to talk some sense into discussion but the ones affected... too bad huh?

as far as i see it it degenerated into the actual situation: lack of updates or news, mixed with the impossibility of open discussion without spamming verbal aggression towards the participants, led to a point where ppl started to blow off some steam...

i'm sure as soon as the new update comes around, all this side tracks will be off.. no need to get jumpy about it imho

[furbs]

Krupi, if i get called out im going to reply. That's fair isn't it?

Ask Carguy to give it a rest.

[JG52Krupi]

Krupi, if i get called out im going to reply. That's fair isn't it?

Ask Carguy to give it a rest.

I would do but im scared he will blow a gasket... ;)

[JG52Uther]

I would do but im scared he will blow a gasket... ;)

I think its too late...

[Rince]

The only sad thing is, that il-2 has a really good community, with loads of good ideas to improve the game. That proofs the first part of il-2 sturmovik! That it all turns into disapointment is understandable!
Look at all those arduous modders who played a big part in the history of il-2!
And even with the bad start of this part, they were very.... relaxed? And knowing to have such a good comm it`s really sad to see how they treat them!
I`m playing another game that had a comparable start an the comm was not really so empathetic like the one of this forum (and the devs were much much more communicative than they`re here, what is not really difficult...;))! But.....i understand us!

To put a light at the end of the tunnel.... the other game is working good atm,...after 1,5 years it really gets playable!

[robtek]

This is a sorry bunch here, trolling for a response.

[Langnasen]

The quality of this forum...is pretty much the same as the game's.

[Rince]

That`s what i also thought...but c`mon the us release is today, and no word about it? I´m really relaxed and hope things turn into good by far, but a little bit strange it is...wait i got a call from chuc....no, I`ll not gonna turn into it! :D

[bw_wolverine]

I've kept very quiet about the whole developer posts issue mostly because I think my opinion is the one most unpopular with the majority of people who find the time to be big posters on this forum.

I remember when I bought games and I either had a good time with them or didn't and there wasn't even the thought in my head that I could ask the people who made the game anything about it.

I'm either going to take a bad experience away from buying a game that isn't working or a good one for enjoying what I can get out of it and feeling I got my money's worth. Hearing this that or the other from the developer is gravy and should be treated as such. When I was playing Aces over Europe I never once considered trying to contact them to tell them that they had their Spitfire wrong. It was a foreign concept. Anyway. It's great that the internet allows everyone such instant access to everything, but I don't think anyone can argue that it's raised the overall maturity of discourse on, well, anything.

I certainly wouldn't respond to the majority of the posts made on the forums here if I were them. But they did. And did. And now they don't. I think a lot of people arguing for dev comments are the same people that slam them for days and days and days and then say a little 'Thanks for the update!' after getting something out the devs and think that erases all the vitriol that's been plastering the forums previously. Then the cycle begins again.

Like I said earlier, I've kept mostly quiet about this stuff after watching it day after day. Anyone who seems to even suggest this kind of attitude gets attacked for it. So honestly, why would I even post about the topic? I suspect that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. Hardly anyone is going to take the time to write a 'I think things are going fine' post. The fact that we've had so many of THOSE (the "I hate whiners" type posts) is an indication of how polarized the community is getting here.

Bleh. Anyway, my two cents on the subject. I really hope the forums would be more about making skins for planes, or talking about cool dogfights, or posting pictures from airshows, etc., than the constant stuff appearing now.

I honestly wonder if another company made a better flight sim that was everything everyone wanted, would the people who are posting the mean spirited stuff here disappear to their forums and post happy posts about how great the game is or would they stay here to post even more mean spirited stuff about how that other game is better than your game and why didn't you do it like that?

Cause THAT'd be productive.

[JG53Frankyboy]

I personally dont need and want a weekly WIP update here.
But that there was NOTHING because the USA relase made me wondering- like a lot of other people here i guess.
Some short words would have avoided a lot if fuss the last days IMHO.

And btw, the subforums here are very good in replacing the lacking official documentation ofcthe game. There are a lot of very good , informative and polite posts!
If one understands english, these are the places to go to get you in the game. Tge manual leaves you alone in the most cases :(

[JG52Krupi]

My opinion, for what it's worth Wolverine, is that it's the people who complain the most care the most.
Me for one.
Those who don't care so much say 'Bleh'.

Just because that kind of attitude works in the UK does not mean it works everywhere.

I still cannot believe how petty my fellow country men are on this forum, just because the fields don't have hedges a silly majority think that the whole game is rubbish.....:confused: really very VERY pathetic considering that in the grand scheme of things it is only a slight not hugely important detail that they missed.

[bw_wolverine]

My opinion, for what it's worth Wolverine, is that it's the people who complain the most care the most.
Me for one.
Those who don't care so much say 'Bleh'.

I don't think you can blame anyone for not wanting to wade into posting on this forum if they just started reading it.

I care too. It's just become abundantly clear over the last weeks (months!) that there's very little content in and amongst the forum posters here worth paying attention to. Maybe some people have time to search through the haystack, but I certainly don't. I bet the developers who are trying to do their jobs have even less at a time like this.

I value your opinion though. I'm glad people care deeply about the subject that this game is about and about flight simulator games in general. It's a great hobby and an important time period. I just wish that the people who ostensibly care so much could do so without being either plain old rude or amazingly passive aggressive. EDIT: I feel that I need to make clear that I'm not referring to anyone in particular here. The internet will probably work its magic and think I'm referencing someone specific and they'll pop up to post an angry remark back at me.

[nearmiss]

bw_wolverine

I've always thought of Air combat flight simulation enthusiasts as an aggressive lot. Afterall, the game is about shooting down the enemy and it's one against one much of the time.

I pretty well expect unexpected and often aggressive responses from CFS types, thereby avoiding disappointment in my fellow man.

[Blackdog_kt]

Blackdog, i like you.

But you do know that Luthier hasnt logged in here, or at the Russian forum since the 1st of July right?

The guy isn't listening to us at all.

Whats the point of posting a bug thread if the guys not reading it.

I've been reading various forums without logging on for years, especially if i'm on a shared/public PC.

Even so, posting a bug thread is infinitely more useful than just plain out venting and bringing everyone down with me.

If i like to suffer so much it's my right, but i should have the decency to exercise my masochism in silence and privately so as not to bring down all the nice people who are working in their own free time to improve my gameplay experience, that's all i'm saying ;)

Recent examples, the workarounds for sound bugs and stutters. People know that turning off trees can help with the sound bug online and reducing texture size can help with stutters, but instead of taking things in stride and going "cool, i'll just play the game for now until they fix some more things" they expect to run everything maxed out and have it working flawlessly. Just look at that texture size poll to see how many people are running with original sized textures when it's common knowledge that it's the setting with the highest impact on FPS.

It's not a question of whether they should be able to on their monster rig, or whose fault is the state of the sim and that's why i put quote marks around the "whiner" tag that gets tossed around so much, i don't classify people as such. For me it's a question of what's possible and how it can be further improved. In other words, it's not a case of "whiners" and "fanboys" but a case of those willing to accept certain realities that have been imposed on this sim and those who like living in a bubble and pretend that repeating things will magically fix everything or turn everyone around to their opinion.

You go ahead and tell people how they can actually have some fun with this sim and the next thing that comes out their mouth (or fingers in this case) is "but i shouldn't have to disable feature XYZ in 2011 on my monster PC", they keep running what they think they should be able to (instead of what is actually feasible) and keep repeating it doesn't work, then epic facepalm ensues for wasting your time helping them out...over and over and over again.

I don't know what Oleg or Luthier owes that group, but they personally owe me a few dozens of gameplay hours that i've wasted trying to help others out with little to no effect. Kinda puts things into perspective doesn't it?

That's why these shenanigans are so counter-productive, they are based on the stubborn tendency of some to be detached from the realities surrounding this sim in contrast to compromising, not with the developer or their expectations as paying customers, but with they fact that some of what they want is not possible at the current stage in time, dropping a couple of settings a notch or two and having a jolly good time actually flying.

Tough poop i know, but why should i have to play forum therapist for them on top of spending so much of my free time guiding people over obstacles, when i could just as easily keep whatever useful knowledge i've accumulated from other helpful members and my own testing for myself, ignore their problems and maximize my enjoyment of the sim? Is their time more valuable than mine? In retrospect i'd say that it isn't, especially in light of the generally ungrateful prevailing attitudes and their unwillingness to follow helpful advice.

There's one simple reason really that i'm still active here, i initially had a feeling that if some of us made an effort to sacrifice some of our short-term enjoyment of the sim for the benefit of others we might some day reach a point where a good percentage of people would be able to see what's under the hood here and get familiarized with what works while we wait for the fixes to the stuff that doesn't yet, so that one day we'll have a knowledgeable user base and get a head start on creating all the cool things we had in IL2:1946 like community created skins, campaigns, online wars and the like, all without having to wait the same amount of years that we had to with IL2 while the community content picked up in quality and quantity. In short, the silly notion that we have some kind of community spirit and i could contribute to that.

Alas, some people are so averse to actually scratching the surface of the sim that all efforts are wasted on them. It's not lack of updates by Luthier that's diminishing my enjoyment of the sim and my willingness to be involved with the community here, it's their self-inflicted, masochistic blindness and the zealotry with which they seek converts to it, "whiners" and "fanboys" alike.

I've kept very quiet about the whole developer posts issue mostly because I think my opinion is the one most unpopular with the majority of people who find the time to be big posters on this forum.

I remember when I bought games and I either had a good time with them or didn't and there wasn't even the thought in my head that I could ask the people who made the game anything about it.

I'm either going to take a bad experience away from buying a game that isn't working or a good one for enjoying what I can get out of it and feeling I got my money's worth. Hearing this that or the other from the developer is gravy and should be treated as such. When I was playing Aces over Europe I never once considered trying to contact them to tell them that they had their Spitfire wrong. It was a foreign concept. Anyway. It's great that the internet allows everyone such instant access to everything, but I don't think anyone can argue that it's raised the overall maturity of discourse on, well, anything.

I certainly wouldn't respond to the majority of the posts made on the forums here if I were them. But they did. And did. And now they don't. I think a lot of people arguing for dev comments are the same people that slam them for days and days and days and then say a little 'Thanks for the update!' after getting something out the devs and think that erases all the vitriol that's been plastering the forums previously. Then the cycle begins again.

Like I said earlier, I've kept mostly quiet about this stuff after watching it day after day. Anyone who seems to even suggest this kind of attitude gets attacked for it. So honestly, why would I even post about the topic? I suspect that there are a lot of other people who feel the same. Hardly anyone is going to take the time to write a 'I think things are going fine' post. The fact that we've had so many of THOSE (the "I hate whiners" type posts) is an indication of how polarized the community is getting here.

Bleh. Anyway, my two cents on the subject. I really hope the forums would be more about making skins for planes, or talking about cool dogfights, or posting pictures from airshows, etc., than the constant stuff appearing now.

I honestly wonder if another company made a better flight sim that was everything everyone wanted, would the people who are posting the mean spirited stuff here disappear to their forums and post happy posts about how great the game is or would they stay here to post even more mean spirited stuff about how that other game is better than your game and why didn't you do it like that?

Cause THAT'd be productive.

Massively good post, especially the last paragraph.

[Tiger27]

i agree, half the time im on the fence because im so disheartened about the whole affair. i have tried to be constructive in so many areas but the patience and energy required has diminished completely. today though im just that bit more sad about it all given the amount of rubbish ive woken upto,

The developers or people who mind this place are at fault and no wonder. It is actually a direct reflection upon the state of the sim. Not to mention the Anarchic nature of the human in times of unhappyness.

I feel your pain Ali, for the most part I've stayed supportive, but the lack of any information is just a slap in the face to those that purchased this sim, I've had enough, fortunately a couple of friends have picked up ROF and we are getting some good times in the Oceanic wing server, Ive got more important things going in life to worry about than the debacle that CoD currently is, has to be one of the worst managed projects Ive ever seen, Luthier should be ashamed.

Just to clarify I can fly this sim, but online with no sound, my issue is with the dissapointing effort to keep people informed about fixes for something that has been paid for, the devs could have found 5 mins to just keep people informed, I still hope that they can get this right, but the silence has me worried I'm afraid.

[hiro]

The quality of this forum is based on each person, as an individual and a whole.


The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts . . . in some places its positive, others it's negative.





Charles SWidoll quote ..

The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, the education, the money, than circumstances, than failure, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes.

[StreetGang]

If they end up dumping the game and just milking the US release for whatever they can, I hope someone leaks the source code, so we can finish it ourselves.

[SG1_Lud]

Very good posts late in this thread, thank you Wolverine, Blackdog, Hiro... i concur with almost everything you said.

I also believe strongly what Hiro said about attitude. Is not just if there are reasons or not to whine. Is that I choose not to whine.

I've playing the game online with no sound, and I choose to enjoy it and I did. It helped me understand better a deaf friend I have online, for example. Maybe it made me better virtual pilot, who knows, the important thing is that I was enjoying the moment. When the sound gets fixed, I will be double happy.

Finger pointing at you:
Whinner, Douglas Bader would be ashamed of you! LOL

Thay only thing I disagree with you Wolverine is that you are alone. I just think there are many being silent lately, but they dont make so much noise.

[Ataros]

Charles SWidoll quote ..

The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, the education, the money, than circumstances, than failure, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes.

Younger or more spoiled people just do not have balls to take responsibility for their negative Attitude or emotions. They expect something external to happen to make them feel emotionally stable and not upset. That is why they have to ask every day and in every thread give me this or that as if someone owes them something. It is obvious that these posts tell much more about personalities of people writing them than on the subject.

Having read 3-5 posts of each participant it becomes clear which attitude he is coming from: whether he wrights a post with intention to help the project and the team that got into a tremendous trouble or seeking revenge and trying to indulge in feeling pity for themselves. Another motive is being a dog barking at an elephant attracts attention of a crowd to him making the dog happy. That is why in each and every thread you can see 3-4 negative comments from the same people regardless of the topic.

They do not want the game to be fixed. Yes, if the game is fixed they have nothing to troll about. They would actually have to play it. But being on a game server does not bring as many emotional benefits as trolling on the forums for an unhealthy personality.

Proof? The forest fix for online sound bug was reported 6 weeks ago. No one of the usual complainers wanted to try it back then. Other proposed solutions were not tested by them either. People complain of lack of offline content but never check forum section where 5-6 excellent user created campaigns are posted. It is funny to see same people complaining on the game in one thread and asking obvious game questions with solutions known since April in another thread. Another notice - they do not post in technical section but only in the main forums section to get more attention. This could mean only one thing they are here not to find solutions but to get some emotional benefits from their destructive behavior.

The 100th time: Developers are not paid for communication with community by UBI. UBI is the publisher for your countries and it keeps communication budget to support UBI forums for themselves. Thus luthier is not obliged to post here and was never obliged. It is only his goodwill to post here which you do not appreciate enough.

If you want him to continue you have to be more polite and not insulting the devs with ridiculous accusations which still continue. It is natural if you want a person to talk to you to be nice and polite to him. The more you troll the more probably you would read patch notes on Steam and UBI sites only but not on these forums. Paid customers? The devs delivered the engine worth at least $500 per copy and get less then $15 for it from the publisher probably (Check out discounted prices like $10-15 reported here. Retailers pay devs less than that). Of cause many have different point of view and it reflects their personality, but fortunately there are other kind of people on the forums as well.

I have not seen any single complain on any forums from this girl http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=308094&postcount=15 When things get tough and a boat gets into rough waters she is trying to help the situation helping to avoid a tragedy as a man should do. Many boys trolling on the forums do not have balls to keep calm and positive when things get tough with the CoD project but cry for help and attention and looking for mom's skirt to hide.

Admins, please ban trolls to save the forums. It is pretty obvious when someone constructively discuses facts like bugs trying to help and when someone throws his emotional subjective judgments trying to insult developers. This should not be tolerated. Trolling must be prohibited here. Otherwise this place would not become a favorite place for the devs or contributors like the lady mentioned above to visit.

[klem]

Someone back there said this forum is a steaming pile.

Of course it is. Its a Forum. In this particular case its a steaming pile of emotion.

People go to forums to seek advice, give advice, chat or vent their spleen. They often respond vigorously to posts they strongly disagree with. The reason there's so much spleen-venting here is because the game doesn't work properly for many and in some ways for all of us, compounded by the fact that we aren't being told much about where we are on the fixes. It will change completely once they are largely sorted.

Meanwhile we let off steam and that's not going to change. There are dozens of repetitive spleen-venting threads. It's probably healthy. If it was so bad for us we wouldn't be here doing it would we? We probably wouldn't even be posting about the quality of the threads. Seems we just can't get enough of it. Of course those that think its really so bad resist the temptation to post at all.

Aaaahh, the human condition :)