What a tracer should look like (before spazzing just look).

[Heliocon]

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3338237/1.html

This is what a tracer should look like imo (I have seen them once before in RL too, as well as with a high speed camera). This is what alot of people were talking about, the current tracers are too thick as they are using geometry to simulate the "glow" instead of actual lighting. The way around this is to keep the core tracer (the bullet/tracer round) and just make it very bright which I think looks better (and more realistic). Like the poster says its not perfect, but I think they should move in that general direction once more important things are fixed.

Note: Only other thing is that while looking at a tracer from a 90 degree angle while it is moving (from the side) if you are close it is blurred but at any distance (a few hundred meters) it is a dot btw (we already talked about this but never about the visual from a normal viewing distance of an incoming plane).
I never really argued in these threads much because there were so many people saying so much stuff everything got lost in translation. But also wanted to say for the record that 1. fat tracers on camera are that way because of resolution in many cases. 2. A camera viewing a tracer at a distance sees more or less what the eye sees. If you want to see what your eye sees at a close distance then you need a highspeed camera which frame/capture rate is similar to a human eye (of course mechanically it is not, just talking about the rate of information the brain receives from your eye). The faster the camera, the more the tracers look like dots instead of bars aswell.

[kalimba]

This is my initial comments about those new tracers...

Its a start...We will have to see those in action...I was watching one of the (hundreds!) of COD's video in slow motion, and I noticed that the last fired tracer " appears" almost at the same place as it predecessor....And all tracers being identical in length and brigtness, it gives this strange and unnatural flickering effect we see. So instead of being able to follow one tracer until it fades away, it looks like it has been "replaced"....Also, the effect of " slowing speed with distance" is not well implemented yet....
I beleive IMHO, that when those issues are fixed, it will be very good RL representation...Until then, this is a step in the right direction....

Salute !

[machoo]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.

[Strike]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.

*Epic facepalm*

[robtek]

learn-resistant is the right expression, i believe.

[Tiger27]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.

Except that it doesnt happen that way, eyes are not cameras they have better anti shake sofware ;)

[robtek]

For the poll, as long as there is no official version its a strict no go for me.
No inofficial mods on my rig!

[Purg]

I do love how the experts opinion (those who have seen tracers in combat) are disregarded for the internet experts opinion who's combat experience is fighting with their mother because their toasted cheese is burnt on one side.

[Sammi79]

there are some good points here. Human eyes can indeed deal with a good amount of shaking, the tracers (i assume) would not squiggle like we see on gun camera film. However the current model is so perfect it looks like lasers from an FPS or something. The vibrations, although they wouldn't affect your vision of the tracer, would affect its trajectory. There should be some randomisation there. Also, they should lose speed and be affected by gravity which would be clearly visible. Anyone remember the trace effect from CFS3? that was pretty much spot on I think. shorter tracers - faint smoke trail - more trajectory randomisation and gravity effect.

[pupaxx]

I think they should be more similar to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtU-Q_ClkwY

anyway, too much faultless lasergun-looking 4 me. i don't know how they appears in RL, all I know is what I see in vids and films and the well discussed technical implication of filming (what u see is what a camera 'electronically' sees)
Cheers

[Mysticpuma]

Well looking at those tracer in the video above it would be good to know what shutter speed was being used as 1/2 second shutter speed would give a tracer about 40-yards long per round, but a shutter speed of 10000th of a second would give a tracer length of about 10-inches. Sadly unless you see tracer first-hand there is no-way that a video can represent the length

HOWEVER... it can represent the thickness and looking at the above they all seem pretty thin and like the new version and not that great big thick slab of light-sabre that currently appears!

So I would certainly load this mod and ask for it to be made official.

MP

[DK-nme]

Hmmm, so funny. If one mentions the propeller disk everyone jumps you and tells, that in real life the propellers are invisible and what we see on telly is caused by framerates - okay, I get it.
But when talking 'bout tracers, suddenly movie effects are ok???
Tracers doesnt look like they do in game - it is again framerate that causes long laser effects...
Again, and now I will seek cover, the tracers in Il-2 wings of prey, they seems to have got it almost right - so why can't it be in this game???

[pupaxx]

I'm well aware about the lenght of tracer is determinated by frame rate and shutter-speed and other factors. I accept all is said about in the past, is technically correct and convincing. i'm aware the video I posted has a relative valor for this discussion cause the gatling is not comparable with spitfire armament etc. If u assure me the ingame (modded or non modded) tracer effect are 100% lifelike, however I'dont like them, it give me the impression of a banal visual phenomenon even if full real. I'd like some cinema fx even if not full realistic. I find nothing wrong in 'warming up' the game ambience with some (well calibrated) effects.
Just my thought ;)
Cheers

[Baron]

Completely and utterly indifferent.


Would be cool with more effects from fire hitting targets/ground targets etc. though.

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.

Is your vision blurry when driving down the highway in an older car or a truck? Because there's all sorts of vibration in that one too ;)

The amount of tissue in your body and the reflex motions of your eyeballs can dampen these vibrations out to the point that they are non-perceivable until the vibration gets really severe.


As for the topic at hand, i agree with Heliocon that making them slightly thinner and using lighting instead of geometry to give the impression of glow would make them just right, but i disagree that viewing them 90 degrees off to their line of travel would give off dots (unless one was very far away). At least that's my perception from personally firing 20mm rheinmetal AA guns while i was serving my conscription term in the local air force, the whole gun was shaking when i was watching others fire but when i was firing myself i was on the gun and didn't feel a thing, tracers didn't squiggle at all, etc. All i would see is thin lines of light that turned into small dots as they got about a kilometer or so away from me. I could estimate range from knowing the shell's maximum flight time (it has a self destruct fuse) and the amount of time it flew before it turned into a dot, so it was easy to make a rough calculation, eg "it turns into a dot 1/3rd of the way before it explodes, i know it explodes at 2km, so it's about 600-700 meters".

As for extra effects, there are ricochets modeled in CoD. Best way to see it is to have a steady firing platform with a battery of rapid firing guns: just crash land a 110 and let it rest with its nose low, then start firing those mg17s and the rounds will start impacting a few hundred yards off your nose, you can easily see the ricochets.

[SQB]

*Epic facepalm*

what? It's common knowledge that when the ground you are standing on vibrates your eyeballs vibrate as well, making everything blurry!
Also the propeller should look like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxdLg50il20

it's just common sense! :grin:




{that's sarcasm btw}

[Doc_uk]

Weres darth vader:confused:
They look far to long, and far to neat and tidy

[choctaw111]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.


Sorry. Even the when human body is shaking or vibrating our eyes are "cushioned" and have the ability to see things clearly, unlike a camera that is hard mounted to the plane.
If you fire some machine guns for yourself, you will see that this is true.

[SNAFU]

You never experienced life on board of a slow running, 2stroke 40MW diesel engine driven vessel I guess? But vibrations can render you vision blurry to even hurting if you even try to focus something at certain revolutions and certain points in your cabin. ;)

But I don´t think wing mounted cannons or guns can induce such vibrations into the pilots seat.

I don´t mind the look of tracers, in my limited playing time (maybe 4hours of abt. 150 hrs in FMB logged via steam) I now don´t use tracers anymore. But I would like the option to switch off guns sounds, because in all the literature I read, it was mostly mentioned that the pilot could not hear the guns being fired, only notices the shaking and nose dropping of the plane, when he pressed the trigger. But that`s another story...

[choctaw111]

Well looking at those tracer in the video above it would be good to know what shutter speed was being used as 1/2 second shutter speed would give a tracer about 40-yards long per round, but a shutter speed of 10000th of a second would give a tracer length of about 10-inches. Sadly unless you see tracer first-hand there is no-way that a video can represent the length

HOWEVER... it can represent the thickness and looking at the above they all seem pretty thin and like the new version and not that great big thick slab of light-sabre that currently appears!

So I would certainly load this mod and ask for it to be made official.

MP

Good point MP.
I did see somewhere on these forums (from Oleg) about the shutter speed of the average human eye. I cannot remember exactly the duration. 1/60th of a second or something like that. If this is true, how many of us have rigs that can display ClOD at this speed? If our rigs cannot keep up with the shutter speed of the human eye then how can we expect to get "realistic" tracer effects?
On to the thickness. The thickness of a tracer also depends on the amount of ambient light. Of course at night, tracers are much more defined and have a greater apparent thickness.
On the other hand I have been in places that were so bright, from the sun reflecting off the sand, that tracers (5.56x45) were not even noticeable even with dark sunglasses. The 7.62x39 and 50 cals were more distinguishable. The difference is that the "tracer hole" diameter varies from one type of bullet to another. The bigger the hole that the tracer burns through means a brighter, thicker and more visible tracer.
I am probably not the foremost "expert" on this forum, but the literal millions of tracers I have seen throughout my career of all types and calibers should certainly have my opinion respected.
I still have not had the pleasure of flying around with ClOD so until then I cannot say, aside from Youtube vids, how I feel about the tracers in ClOD.

[bongodriver]

it was mostly mentioned that the pilot could not hear the guns being fired, only notices the shaking and nose dropping of the plane, when he pressed the trigger. But that`s another story...

Probably true but oh my god can you imagine the whining if anything like that was ever implemented, if it ain't how holywood or the media shows it it ain't real.....



Oh and something about tracers...........

[SNAFU]

That`s why I would ask for the option, but we are getting offtopic, so everybody would be happy. ;)

[Mysticpuma]

As you mention the sound I'd like to add a very short part of an anecdote that was told to me by P-51 'Ace' Art Fiedler.

He recalled the first time he fired his guns as it went something like this;

"I got my sights on the target and squeezed the trigger......I nearly jumped out of my skin as the roar of the guns was so loud! It doesn't sound anything like you hear in the movies, you can't here the guns, it's just a load roar and vibration!"

Cheers, MP

[SNAFU]

I read also read contradicting stories, that is right. I interpret these contradicting stories in a way, that the pilot could sense a structure-borne noise I, but not hear a distinct sound of the guns.

[bongodriver]

Well it would make sense, when I do formation flying the noise of the other aircraft is barely noticeable because of sound attenuation from my headset, and an aircraft up close is louder than most guns, yes I have the relevant experience.

[CharveL]

I will almost always opt for the more "realistic" approach.

However, it's a matter of degree and practicality. It's funny how some will want absolute realism in an effect for one thing while being completely content with some other effect that is less realistic.

At some point we have to realize that we are perceiving the sim through crappy colour LCD monitors (most of us) in 2D representing 3D and some "Hollywood" effects that aren't over-the-top might actually be welcome in some effects.

As for the framerate of the human eye, it is far, far more than 60fps in some circumstances and difficult to quantify anyway since it has little to do with the eye itself and more to do with the way the brain processes the information using a sort of "fuzzy logic".

Anyway, let's try not to get too anal about it - tracers are far down the list right now imho - and go for something that's mostly realistic and partly just "good" looking for the sake of immersion whether it be narrower laser blaster shots or a bit of squiggle even.

Personally, I'd be happier with more immersive sounds (not necessarily super realistic engine samples) but things like those deep low frequency flak bursts like in BoB:WoV for example.

I'll let the armchair experts debate the ultra-realistic aspects.

[Bryan21cag]

I do love how the experts opinion (those who have seen tracers in combat) are disregarded for the internet experts opinion who's combat experience is fighting with their mother because their toasted cheese is burnt on one side.

its the other way around as well sir :) I have seen plenty of different tracers from plenty of different types of ammo up close and personal but it does not stop me from getting blasted for thinking they look too fat and too long. :)

I'm not one of the gun camera/movie style folks but I do think they need to be refined. The new mod that just came out is a step in the rite direction but still needs tweaking.

[JG5_emil]

*Epic facepalm*

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.

OK You are kidding which means your other post.,...u know the airsoft one was also a joke.

In which case it WAS funny after all

[jamesdietz]

Seems to me I read all this berfore in SAS & AAS Forum postings for Il-2 Mods.They came up with alot of variations all of which ( to my eye) look better than the death ray tracers in CloD...sadly....

[ATAG_Doc]

If you want that squiggly gun camera tracer look then they need to cook up a gun camera feature that records as soon as you press fire and records for 3 seconds after you release it. Build it where it looks like it is indeed a camera that is bolted down where it gets all the vibration in the field of view. Blackdog is correct. Your eyeballs are surrounded by soft tissue and that helps to reduce this affect you normally see with all this old footage from WWII.

Speaking of this. How hard would it be to create a menu item that you could enable within CoD that would act as your guncam? Can't be all that hard.

Just add a recording view that is 30 degrees FOV record to gif file.

Does this get anyone else excited??

[Jatta Raso]

a tad thinner and just a little less glow? i find these ones pretty convincing (3:42)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CdXMrn_0YY&feature=related

[TheEditor]

Can we have some screen shots or vids in game of the tracer mod?

[jayrc]

gun camera recording option would be awesome, you could review just your shooting so you could see how you could improve gunnery:grin:

[kalimba]

well, seems like those who saw real tracers and those who didn't agree that CODs tracers aren't right...:rolleyes:
So what would be the good compromise here so everyone feels that we get
realistic impression of what would be real tracers as seen by humans in a real plane flying at 250 mph ?....What would be a common ground as reference in that case ? The best thing would be to have something on film or video that would bring unanimous agreement as a basis to work from....

Am I dreaming ?;)

salute !

[machoo]

Except that it doesnt happen that way, eyes are not cameras they have better anti shake sofware ;)


Eyes do yes. But you have on goggles too. Goggles are never clear.

[ElAurens]

I will almost always opt for the more "realistic" approach.

However, it's a matter of degree and practicality. It's funny how some will want absolute realism in an effect for one thing while being completely content with some other effect that is less realistic.

At some point we have to realize that we are perceiving the sim through crappy colour LCD monitors (most of us) in 2D representing 3D and some "Hollywood" effects that aren't over-the-top might actually be welcome in some effects.

As for the framerate of the human eye, it is far, far more than 60fps in some circumstances and difficult to quantify anyway since it has little to do with the eye itself and more to do with the way the brain processes the information using a sort of "fuzzy logic".

Anyway, let's try not to get too anal about it - tracers are far down the list right now imho - and go for something that's mostly realistic and partly just "good" looking for the sake of immersion whether it be narrower laser blaster shots or a bit of squiggle even.

Personally, I'd be happier with more immersive sounds (not necessarily super realistic engine samples) but things like those deep low frequency flak bursts like in BoB:WoV for example.

I'll let the armchair experts debate the ultra-realistic aspects.

Stop making so much sense Charv, would ya?

Oh, and I am utterly indifferent and in no way do I want mods in my stock install.

[Heliocon]

Is your vision blurry when driving down the highway in an older car or a truck? Because there's all sorts of vibration in that one too ;)

The amount of tissue in your body and the reflex motions of your eyeballs can dampen these vibrations out to the point that they are non-perceivable until the vibration gets really severe.


As for the topic at hand, i agree with Heliocon that making them slightly thinner and using lighting instead of geometry to give the impression of glow would make them just right, but i disagree that viewing them 90 degrees off to their line of travel would give off dots (unless one was very far away). At least that's my perception from personally firing 20mm rheinmetal AA guns while i was serving my conscription term in the local air force, the whole gun was shaking when i was watching others fire but when i was firing myself i was on the gun and didn't feel a thing, tracers didn't squiggle at all, etc. All i would see is thin lines of light that turned into small dots as they got about a kilometer or so away from me. I could estimate range from knowing the shell's maximum flight time (it has a self destruct fuse) and the amount of time it flew before it turned into a dot, so it was easy to make a rough calculation, eg "it turns into a dot 1/3rd of the way before it explodes, i know it explodes at 2km, so it's about 600-700 meters".

As for extra effects, there are ricochets modeled in CoD. Best way to see it is to have a steady firing platform with a battery of rapid firing guns: just crash land a 110 and let it rest with its nose low, then start firing those mg17s and the rounds will start impacting a few hundred yards off your nose, you can easily see the ricochets.

Sorry I might not have been clear with this. Watching from the side 90 degree angle at close range makes the tracer look even longer than from behind. However the farther away you are the shorter the tracer length looks.

(also in general) I am not in the military so I cannot attest to higher calibre weapons like a .50 or 20mm equivalent.
In the end its all just physics though.

[Blackdog_kt]

@ Heliocon: Yep, your revised explanation is in agreement with my personal experience, if that's worth anything ;)




well, seems like those who saw real tracers and those who didn't agree that CODs tracers aren't right...:rolleyes:
So what would be the good compromise here so everyone feels that we get
realistic impression of what would be real tracers as seen by humans in a real plane flying at 250 mph ?....What would be a common ground as reference in that case ? The best thing would be to have something on film or video that would bring unanimous agreement as a basis to work from....

Am I dreaming ?;)

salute !

It's very simple really. Just make them a bit thinner and make the amount of glow dependent on ambient light conditions. I don't know how simple it is to do in coding/graphics design terms, but that's the only thing two things they would need to change.

That's why i've been a supporter of the initial stock tracers. They may not be 100% correct but they are a much more sound foundation and starting point for getting correct-looking tracers as viewed by the human eye with a couple of modifications, while what we've usually had in other sims in previous years is harder to modify into what the eye actually sees.

The basic idea behind the CoD tracers is totally correct as far as i'm concerned and they exhibit all the correct traits in terms of shape/size depending on angular separation and amount of streaking depending on distance. They just need a bit of fine tuning and i mean that in the literal sense of the word, they just need a tiny bit of touching up and they'll be looking exactly like what i've seen in real life.

[skouras]

a tad thinner and just a little less glow? i find these ones pretty convincing (3:42)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CdXMrn_0YY&feature=related

that's a landscape that i would like to see in sim btw:grin:
nice video though

[Timberwolf]

I do love how the experts opinion (those who have seen tracers in combat) are disregarded for the internet experts opinion who's combat experience is fighting with their mother because their toasted cheese is burnt on one side.

So if i'm both do i still get a say?

Gunfire of ww2 had mostly lined shots However the smoke behind the tracer shot was in a spiral The detail of this must be hard to do and time consuming for 1 little detail when so much more could be done Advance gunfire grafixs should be on the back burner untill sound, bugs and other things are fixed

[PLebre]

Hi,

I think the current 3D representation of the tracers is not one of the best, it looks like fluorescent lamps, it must be more like a glowing point leaving a TRACE;) because of the speed of motion (motion blur).

A shaking effect will be more than well come in my opinion, it will help the immersion, I belive that those planes did shake a lot on certain condition like firing heavy guns and starting engines.
Something like head shaking effect seeing on Sim Racing games.

A good mod it's always welcome, and you are free to use it or not.

Regards

P.S. I am off to check Arma2 tracers.

Edited: Ups, just notice, the planes do shake when firing and when engine run bad. It was a long time I didn't fire my CofD.
Anyway it could be a more foreshadowed effect, helped with some sounds.

[Heliocon]

So if i'm both do i still get a say?

Gunfire of ww2 had mostly lined shots However the smoke behind the tracer shot was in a spiral The detail of this must be hard to do and time consuming for 1 little detail when so much more could be done Advance gunfire grafixs should be on the back burner untill sound, bugs and other things are fixed

Well that would make sense, I dont know the exact chemicles they used in the bullet (some variant or replacement of gunpower? It certainly would be more "smokey" then modern amunition) but when the bullet leaves the barrel it is of course rotating very fast from the rifling which would create a smoke whirl/spiral (the bullet would be trailing smoke and the particles/air would be disturbed by the bullets rotation causing it to form a spiral). Is that correct?

.303 definitly had rifling in them, .50cals too but no idea about the 20mm cannon as the term "cannon" implies to me that it was not rifled (but I truly dont know in this case).

-Also if you go look at ww2 guncam videos of enemy AA firing at the plane while its coming in for a run, at a distance you will notice the tracers are just very slow moving dots, but as the plane got closer those fireflies get very fast and very dangerous!

[Wolf_Rider]

Hi,


A shaking effect will be more than well come in my opinion, it will help the immersion, I belive that those planes did shake a lot on certain condition like firing heavy guns and starting engines.
Something like head shaking effect seeing on Sim Racing games.

A good mod it's always welcome, and you are free to use it or not.

Regards

P.S. I am off to check Arma2 tracers.

Edited: Ups, just notice, the planes do shake when firing and when engine run bad. It was a long time I didn't fire my CofD.
Anyway it could be a more foreshadowed effect, helped with some sounds.



Real life rounds fly (shoot) straight though, they don't wobble about... its the camera doing the recording which is shaking (more like vibrating).
The kind of thing you're talking about would be like driving over deep corrugations on a dirt road

[bw_wolverine]

With regards to the 'shaking' effect. I discovered a simple little experiment that might help explain what people are talking about with regard to the human eye 'smoothing' it out.

If you're in a car, look at the car in front of you. Is it bouncing around? Certainly the car you're in is vibrating and shifting with road condition, etc. Maybe the car in front is going over bumps and such, but it's not 'shakey' in how it appears to you.

Now look at the car behind you in the rear view mirror. Notice anything different? The car viewed through the mirror, no matter how hard you try to focus or whatever will look more 'shakey', like it's vibrating. Both the car in front and the car behind are being subjected to the identical conditions of the road, so why do they appear different? I believe this is because the view that you're getting of that car is 'fixed' (the mirror) instead of the view of the car ahead of you (your eyes) as mentioned by a few people about guncameras being fixed positions. Someone said in this thread that the human eye has great anti-shake software. It's quite true.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is similar to the effect produced by filming the bullets rather than viewing them live.

This is a very easy experiment. I encourage everyone to try it if you are in any way invested in this argument. It's interesting to think about anyway.

[Mysticpuma]

In which case (and very well put) maybe one of the camera views should have a "Gun Camera" option for replay so that the vibration, squiggle, wobble effect could be seen, but only during replay if it is enabled in the replay gun-camera?

Just a thought and that way there is a best of both worlds as the option is switch-able?

Cheers, MP

BTW, currently the vote pretty much says that no-one likes the current effect, but as we don't hear anything from the dev's who knows if there was a point in making a poll?

MP

[Blackdog_kt]

Not really, i do like the current effect even though i want them tweaked. I'll just like it even more if the two tweaks i mentioned are applied, but i don't consider the stock effect an immersion killer because it's the closest to reality i've ever seen.

As such, i consider it the most acceptable effect so far in my time of flight simming (in terms of closeness to reality) and it's the reason i didn't vote (i don't 100% agree with any of the poll's options).

I do agree though that having extra options to please everyone would be best in the long run. Maybe in the future we'll have a toggle in the graphics options, cinematic vs realistic effects and/or a gun camera feature that will simulate the camera induced wobble effect and play back in black and white at 1/4 - 1/2 speed like it used to be in the real ones.

[CharveL]

Sorry about all the effort everyone is putting into splitting the hairs of perception but we are not looking at the sim in a holodeck.

We're looking at it on a flat screen. In other words we ARE seeing a camera representation of the world along with sun flare effects, somewhat less than realistic land, plane, sky, etc. textures and models, all by necessity.

All these things are, by necessity, interpreted for representation on a screen under the limitations of performance and technology. Is there room for improvement? Yeah, for sure, and I'll help carry the flag but even though we want realism - even the most hardcore amongst us draws the line somewhere because ultimately it has to be enjoyable.

Since we can't have perfect physics modeling of a bullet with all of it's individual physical properties and characteristics anyway, why not get it as close as feasible and elaborate on the effects just a bit?

[TheEditor]

Screenshot or Vid?

[II./JG1_Wilcke]

To get an idea of what were dealing with just take a look at a .303, .50 and a 20mm aviation type round, look at the base of the projectile and you will see the area available to setup the tracing material. Its pretty small in diameter. So that will give you a rough approximation of how 'thick' the tracing should be in game.

As for the 20mm cannon ammo, yes the barrels were rifled. Oh and projectiles do not fly in a straight line the definitely follow a curved flight path affected by ballistics and gravity. Bullet design, along with muzzle velocity also affect how flat the barrel will shoot; but there is always an arc that intersects the line of sight twice.

The military folks and hobbyists that have fired a variety of tracing ammo through various automatic weapons will know what we are talking about here.

[winny]

Well that would make sense, I dont know the exact chemicles they used in the bullet (some variant or replacement of gunpower? It certainly would be more "smokey" then modern amunition) but when the bullet leaves the barrel it is of course rotating very fast from the rifling which would create a smoke whirl/spiral (the bullet would be trailing smoke and the particles/air would be disturbed by the bullets rotation causing it to form a spiral). Is that correct?

.303 definitly had rifling in them, .50cals too but no idea about the 20mm cannon as the term "cannon" implies to me that it was not rifled (but I truly dont know in this case).

-Also if you go look at ww2 guncam videos of enemy AA firing at the plane while its coming in for a run, at a distance you will notice the tracers are just very slow moving dots, but as the plane got closer those fireflies get very fast and very dangerous!

The spiral somke trails come off of the ammo because that's how they were designed. As you said, all modern bullets spin due to rifling.

The british .303 'smoke' tracer/incendiary had a small hole in the side of the round (not the back) the smoke comes out of this weep hole and creates large (relativley) spirals. It had no visible light. I don't know if German smoke tracer was the same.

The only other comment on tracer (I've done it to death over on SimHQ) is that they should be relative to the viewer not the object being viewed.

In Game they behave like little comets with a physical tail, when in fact they are little dots that leave a trail inside your eye. This means that they do not always appear parallel to the line of flight and are always relative to the movement of the viewer. The light trails in CoD are always parallel to the line of flight.

The other issues are frame rate side effects.

[Wolf_Rider]

As for the 20mm cannon ammo, yes the barrels were rifled. Oh and projectiles do not fly in a straight line the definitely follow a curved flight path affected by ballistics and gravity. Bullet design, along with muzzle velocity also affect how flat the barrel will shoot; but there is always an arc that intersects the line of sight twice.




true, the round does "arc" (depth of arc depending on various conditions present and how much bang went into pushing it out the barrel) but in that arc they fly straight... they don't wobble about like seen in guncam footage.

[Iamsnip]

Just wanted to say that the title of this topic made me lulz - IMO the nicest (although it may be incorrect) tracers that I've seen in game were in B17 the old microprose game - esp in fighter.

[Heliocon]

With regards to the 'shaking' effect. I discovered a simple little experiment that might help explain what people are talking about with regard to the human eye 'smoothing' it out.

If you're in a car, look at the car in front of you. Is it bouncing around? Certainly the car you're in is vibrating and shifting with road condition, etc. Maybe the car in front is going over bumps and such, but it's not 'shakey' in how it appears to you.

Now look at the car behind you in the rear view mirror. Notice anything different? The car viewed through the mirror, no matter how hard you try to focus or whatever will look more 'shakey', like it's vibrating. Both the car in front and the car behind are being subjected to the identical conditions of the road, so why do they appear different? I believe this is because the view that you're getting of that car is 'fixed' (the mirror) instead of the view of the car ahead of you (your eyes) as mentioned by a few people about guncameras being fixed positions. Someone said in this thread that the human eye has great anti-shake software. It's quite true.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is similar to the effect produced by filming the bullets rather than viewing them live.

This is a very easy experiment. I encourage everyone to try it if you are in any way invested in this argument. It's interesting to think about anyway.

Well I dont know if this is what you mean but when you look at a car infront of you, your brain automatically has your eyes track the object and compensate for relative movement (eyes following the car). Also vibrations are reduced by your body. However when you look at the car in the mirror behind you, you are looking at the car's image in the mirror. Therefore when your car vibrates the mirror does too, while your eyes are focused on the car behind, which makes the image of the car in the mirror move relative to the mirrors position and therefore since your eyes are compensating for the car's reflection movement and not the mirror, the mirror obviously vibrates. You would get the opposite effect in extreme situations if you looked at a part of the mirror that had black tape on it, so you would be following the mirror but see the car in your perepheral vision behind you can be seen to move more since you are not focused on it.

Basically the eye picks out an object for you to see, while a camera sees everything "equally" and does not track objects like an eye does.

[klem]

I think they should be more similar to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtU-Q_ClkwY

anyway, too much faultless lasergun-looking 4 me. i don't know how they appears in RL, all I know is what I see in vids and films and the well discussed technical implication of filming (what u see is what a camera 'electronically' sees)
Cheers

Thats the last time I go to a boot sale!

[ATAG_Bliss]

The only other comment on tracer (I've done it to death over on SimHQ) is that they should be relative to the viewer not the object being viewed.

In Game they behave like little comets with a physical tail, when in fact they are little dots that leave a trail inside your eye. This means that they do not always appear parallel to the line of flight and are always relative to the movement of the viewer. The light trails in CoD are always parallel to the line of flight.

The other issues are frame rate side effects.

Except your whole argument is flawed. The tracers appear as streaks of light, offset of the weapon, because the speed of the round produces a streak of light. It doesn't matter where you are positioned one IOTA. That streak of light coincides DIRECTLY with the path of the bullet being fired and your perception is such. The only time you will ever see dots is if you are directly behind the weapon being fired. Your perception may change if you are trying to focus on a single round being fired, but the game shows tracer rounds as if you are focusing on the target you are firing at (which is exactly what you should be doing 100% of the time when you fire a weapon).

As someone who specifically trains the special forces on weapons, even more specifically, machine guns, I've seen and fired more rounds of various amounts of ammunition in a single work day than most will ever in their whole life. I know EXACTLY what they look like being fired from virtually every type of situation.

The tracers in game look fine. You're used to Hollywood effects. Stop thinking that you want to focus a specific round. You never do that when you are firing a weapon and that is the ONLY way what you are saying would EVER happen. And that's why your arguments over at SimHq about staring at a flashlight,pen, candle and waving it around don't hold any water. Once you realize that you don't focus on what's coming out of the weapon, but instead, the target you are firing at, it should start making sense to you.

What we have in game can never be truly 100% accurate simply because the game is shown across a 2d screen in the same exact fashion as a video camera. If you are looking down the sights on a target, virtually everything else is not in focus. In an airplane this effect is much much less, but still present. The game has 100% of your viewing angle perfectly focused all the time, but as stated over at SimHq, this is simply because of hardware limitations. But what we have now, is more correct that some zig zag bs tracer that you want from a movie. Star Wars at least got them right. And if you didn't know "the blaster" in Star Wars came about after watching tracer ammunition. It's modeled directly from a tracer round. So when someone says star wars tracer rounds, I laugh and think to myself, this is actually a compliment.

[PissyChrissy]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.

Incorrect. They "squiggle" in gun camera videos because the camera is bolted hard to the aircraft, and there's metal-on-metal connection all the way between the guns and the optics, which ends up transferring the vibrations to the lens.

For humans, there is a lot of meat and cartilage absorbing the vibrations long before they can ever reach your eyeball.

I've fired many rounds from the 25mm bushmaster M242 in a LAV turret, and i can tell you first hand, that when you watch tracers go downrange through the optics, they squiggle, but when you pup your head out of the turret and watch with the naked eye, they do not. This is simple fact.

[winny]

Except your whole argument is flawed. The tracers appear as streaks of light, offset of the weapon, because the speed of the round produces a streak of light. It doesn't matter where you are positioned one IOTA. That streak of light coincides DIRECTLY with the path of the bullet being fired and your perception is such. The only time you will ever see dots is if you are directly behind the weapon being fired. Your perception may change if you are trying to focus on a single round being fired, but the game shows tracer rounds as if you are focusing on the target you are firing at (which is exactly what you should be doing 100% of the time when you fire a weapon).

As someone who specifically trains the special forces on weapons, even more specifically, machine guns, I've seen and fired more rounds of various amounts of ammunition in a single work day than most will ever in their whole life. I know EXACTLY what they look like being fired from virtually every type of situation.

The tracers in game look fine. You're used to Hollywood effects. Stop thinking that you want to focus a specific round. You never do that when you are firing a weapon and that is the ONLY way what you are saying would EVER happen. And that's why your arguments over at SimHq about staring at a flashlight,pen, candle and waving it around don't hold any water. Once you realize that you don't focus on what's coming out of the weapon, but instead, the target you are firing at, it should start making sense to you.

What we have in game can never be truly 100% accurate simply because the game is shown across a 2d screen in the same exact fashion as a video camera. If you are looking down the sights on a target, virtually everything else is not in focus. In an airplane this effect is much much less, but still present. The game has 100% of your viewing angle perfectly focused all the time, but as stated over at SimHq, this is simply because of hardware limitations. But what we have now, is more correct that some zig zag bs tracer that you want from a movie. Star Wars at least got them right. And if you didn't know "the blaster" in Star Wars came about after watching tracer ammunition. It's modeled directly from a tracer round. So when someone says star wars tracer rounds, I laugh and think to myself, this is actually a compliment.

My argument is not flawed, you just don't get it.

It is a physical impossibility for a point of light that is moving away from you, whilst you are moving left to right, to trace a straight line over your retina. Explain to me how they would stay straight if you are so sure. Like I said cods light trails always stay at 180 degrees to the line of flight. If you actually bothered to work this out you'd realise that a light trail always has to be at 180 degrees to the 'percieved' movement. It's a very subtle difference.

Again, the tracers in cod (and most games) behave as if they have a physical tail. They dont. The tail only exists in the eye and it would be impossible to keep every round in focus if you were looking through the sight with an infinite focal depth, like in CoD. Therefore the path they trace over your eye would only be perfectly straight if you were still. It's a simple fact.

[robtek]

Winny,
the speed difference between the bullet and the possibly highest lateral movement make the distortion you are trying to describe so minuscule that it is so unimportant to waste even 1 computing cycle on it.

[winny]

Winny,
the speed difference between the bullet and the possibly highest lateral movement make the distortion you are trying to describe so minuscule that it is so unimportant to waste even 1 computing cycle on it.

You are thinking outside the eye.

It only takes a very small movement for this effect to happen. The speed of the bullet is irrelevant. It's all about relative speed across the retina. regardless of actual speed (which is the reason that tracer coming in from the side appear to have a longer tail), they move across the retina quicker than ones moving away from you.

Again, this effect does not hapen anywhere except in the eye. Any movement of the head/eye/aircraft will effect it.

To understand this you need to stop thinking in 3d, tracer light trails are a 2d effect on the back of the eye, like a pen on paper. They are not affected by perspective.

To say that the effect is miniscule is missing the point, if the tail appears to be 2 feet long or 22 feet long it should still be aligned to the relative movement over the 2d image in the back of the eye, not the actual movement in 3D space.

As for wasting cycles.. That's what they are doing now, by drawing in 3d bars of light.

I'm no games designer and this may actually be horrendously difficult but..

Surley it would be lighter on resources to simply not render the tracer in 3D but to draw them in as a 2D overlay, with the tail at 180 degrees to the movement across the eye/screen? ie. treat it exactly as it is, instead of rendering a 3d bar of light that doesn't actually exist anywhere except inside your eye.

[Mysticpuma]

The problem I have with the current effect is the thickness and also the tracer is always perfect. I never see any randomness in the bullet decay or fade as it falls away, they all burn perfectly, almost like switching 'realistic gunnery' off in IL2:1946. There needs to be variation in the animation. MP

[ElAurens]

And now we get to the crux of this issue.

Gamers, like winney, want SFX, and will totally discount a professional's real world experience.

There is no room for Hollywood SFX in a simulation.

I can't wait for the new sound engine and complaints that the weapons don't sound right. Well, here is a clue to start chomping on, firearms in movies sound nothing like real weapons being fired.

Thank you SYN_Bliss for your post and putting sanity into this issue.

[/thread].

[winny]

And now we get to the crux of this issue.

Gamers, like winney, want SFX, and will totally discount a professional's real world experience.

There is no room for Hollywood SFX in a simulation.

I can't wait for the new sound engine and complaints that the weapons don't sound right. Well, here is a clue to start chomping on, firearms in movies sound nothing like real weapons being fired.

Thank you SYN_Bliss for your post and putting sanity into this issue.

[/thread].

No SFX? Ok, so just model dots of light. Tracer by it's very nature is an effect. If you're happy with the current tracers then fine. They do however, defy the laws of physics, but it's only a game.

I'n not arguing for hollywood, i'm arguing for realism. No amount of 'i've fired 1000's of tracers' type posts can change some very basic laws of the natural world.

[skouras]

if SFX can represent the RL
Then fine with me :grin:
i'm looking for a close as its gets not an arcade style good looking picture


Salute..

[ElAurens]

Winny, enough with the pseudo science OK?

You are lobbying for a special effect designed in the manner that pleases your eyes and perception. It doesn't seem to matter to you that many folks who have seen the real thing are arguing that what we have is basically correct. You want it your way.

Have you ever fired a weapon winny?

[Mysticpuma]

Hi El, can I just ask your opinion of my point above and also if you think from r/l that the tracers are too thick for their calibre and also if they should decay, losing brightness as they dirperse in the distance? Currently they all look too thick and perfect (imho) and show no visible decay while the tracer is burning, they all seem to burn out equally and vanish, surely it should have a more evident decay. MP

[bongodriver]

Why do people think that calibre is relevant, the point of light is a glow produced by a phosphor based substance, it burns bright and bigger than the calibre, that phosphor also burns at constant rate like a match so its all or nothing, it just burns and dies suddenly, and tracer rounds 'will' appear as a streak of light even if viewed from directly behind...at least initially when the round has just left the muzzle, when the round gets further down range the streak becomes a point and then it just dies.

[winny]

Winny, enough with the pseudo science OK?

You are lobbying for a special effect designed in the manner that pleases your eyes and perception. It doesn't seem to matter to you that many folks who have seen the real thing are arguing that what we have is basically correct. You want it your way.

Have you ever fired a weapon winny?

I have fired a weapon. Not that it matters, i was pretty stationary at the time thought.
It's not pseudo science. It's simple geometry.
It's not my way, it's physics.
I don't want it the way i described, i just suggested it.

If you can tell me which part of my pseudo science is wrong i'll happily admit i'm wrong.

[ElAurens]

Why do people think that calibre is relevant, the point of light is a glow produced by a phosphor based substance, it burns bright and bigger than the calibre, that phosphor also burns at constant rate like a match so its all or nothing, it just burns and dies suddenly, and tracer rounds 'will' appear as a streak of light even if viewed from directly behind...at least initially when the round has just left the muzzle, when the round gets further down range the streak becomes a point and then it just dies.

Thanks, saved me the trouble.

[fireflyerz]

What a nana.

[yellonet]

You are thinking outside the eye.

It only takes a very small movement for this effect to happen. The speed of the bullet is irrelevant. It's all about relative speed across the retina. regardless of actual speed (which is the reason that tracer coming in from the side appear to have a longer tail), they move across the retina quicker than ones moving away from you.

Again, this effect does not hapen anywhere except in the eye. Any movement of the head/eye/aircraft will effect it.

To understand this you need to stop thinking in 3d, tracer light trails are a 2d effect on the back of the eye, like a pen on paper. They are not affected by perspective.

To say that the effect is miniscule is missing the point, if the tail appears to be 2 feet long or 22 feet long it should still be aligned to the relative movement over the 2d image in the back of the eye, not the actual movement in 3D space.

As for wasting cycles.. That's what they are doing now, by drawing in 3d bars of light.

I'm no games designer and this may actually be horrendously difficult but..

Surley it would be lighter on resources to simply not render the tracer in 3D but to draw them in as a 2D overlay, with the tail at 180 degrees to the movement across the eye/screen? ie. treat it exactly as it is, instead of rendering a 3d bar of light that doesn't actually exist anywhere except inside your eye.
I understand what you're saying, but I actually do think it's more difficult to implement this optical illusion than to do what we have now.
I would guess that what we have now is a visible "light bar" simply riding on the already calculated trajectory of the bullet.
To get a dynamic representation of tracer fire someone would likely need to create such a function from scratch. Perhaps the Devs aren't aware of the effect or they just didn't think it was worth the effort to implement.

[winny]

Thanks, saved me the trouble.

I never said there was no streak, just that its angle is off. That's all.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Winny. When you pull G's in any plane in this sim, you can see the effects of the tracers. They are not always straight. (arcing) But they will never zig zag EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with relation to movement. When you are sitting in a moving aircraft the guns and your body are moving the same speed. In other words, you might as well be stationary. It's no different than thinking that you can jump at the last second when an elevator is falling to save your yourself. Your problem is you think your body (in this airplane scenario) isn't moving right along with the weapon.

Anyhow, I'll say it one last time. Tracers go straight. Tracers look straight. Regardless if you are firing from an MRAP bouncing all over the place at 70mph or from an airplane going 200mph bouncing all over the place.

It's quite obvious that you don't have any experience in the matter.

[winny]

Winny. When you pull G's in any plane in this sim, you can see the effects of the tracers. They are not always straight. (arcing) But they will never zig zag EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with relation to movement. When you are sitting in a moving aircraft the guns and your body are moving the same speed. In other words, you might as well be stationary. It's no different than thinking that you can jump at the last second when an elevator is falling to save your yourself. Your problem is you think your body (in this airplane scenario) isn't moving right along with the weapon.

Anyhow, I'll say it one last time. Tracers go straight. Tracers look straight. Regardless if you are firing from an MRAP bouncing all over the place at 70mph or from an airplane going 200mph bouncing all over the place.

It's quite obvious that you don't have any experience in the matter.

I don't need experience, just a pen and paper.

I admit it's an abstract concept, but it's something that you can measure.

I really have to emphasise the difference between the bullet which I know always goes straight, and the streak effect in the eye.

If you were right behind a tracer bullet it would look like a circle getting smaller, no streak. If you pull up hard the tracer bullet will move down your view until it disapears. At the points it is actually moving down the scene the streak must be behind it this would mean that something mving away from you would have it's streak in front of it (relative to it's flightpath). It's this that I'm trying to get across, not zig-zag, hollywood etc... just something organic that happens that is subtle.

I am not campaigning for this to happen in CoD either. It started as an observation as to why some people find CoD's tracers slightly off.

[ATAG_Bliss]

No. To know what you are talking about with regards to how something looks like, you need experience. You can jabber on your pen and paper all you want to but that will never change the fact to what a tracer round looks like to your naked eye.

If you are right behind a tracer, it looks like a dot, not a circle. The streak effect in the eye is ONLY (let me reiterate this for the 1000X) Only is going to happen if you are FOCUSING on that individual round. NEVER will it happen if the round simply comes into your vision.

I have to ask, because it seems like you are lobbying for something that is already there. Have you played IL2COD? Because the relationship between how straight the tracers appear (in game) are all relative to where you are in relation to firing them. If you turn hard when you are firing they do exactly like they should (which seems like that's what you are promoting)

Please go fire up the game. It seems like you are arguing for something that you didn't even know already existed in the 1st place.

[winny]

If you are right behind a tracer, it looks like a dot, not a circle. The streak effect in the eye is ONLY (let me reiterate this for the 1000X) Only is going to happen if you are FOCUSING on that individual round. NEVER will it happen if the round simply comes into your vision.



What shape is a tracer round from behind? Circular. What shape is a dot? Circular. I didn't say sphere. (Very petty too)

So you're saying that you can only see tracers that you are focusing on?

How does a 'dot' of light that is travelling across the back of your eye not leave a trail? If you're focused on it or not.

I'm not lobbying, I don't care if it's included or not, as you mentioned the current ones are quite good . It's merely an observation.

I'm actually just defending my argument.

It's a fact that the streak should always be at 180 degrees to the movement across the screen and it's length dictated by the relative speed across the screen, there is no depth involved the dot just gets smaller and dimmer. CoD sometimes breaks this rule, ever so slightly - all I was doing was trying to explain the subtle difference that some people have picked up on.

It's the constant 'you don't know what you are talking about' posts that make me want to reply.
All I need to understand is that bright light leaves a trail behind it when it moves. Then work out the path it would take relative to the camera/eye/screen.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Oh boy. Here's an example of a circle ( O ). Notice how the inside is void. A tracer from behind does not look like that as it has no void.

The streak effect I was referring to is the effect YOU were talking about. (Remember your flashlight / candle analogy?) That only can happen if you are trying to focus on a single round.

Who said a dot of light didn't have a trail? A tracer produces a streak of light meaning not just a dot (depending on your offset position) And once you actually fire them, you'll realize that the front of that trail and the back of that trail look virtually identical (aka a straight line). And that line is there because your eyes are not good enough to simply focus on an object moving at that rate of speed. That's why once you TRY to do this that line can get all sorts of goofy looking.

I'm done arguing. This is pointless.

[winny]

Oh boy. Here's an example of a circle ( O ). Notice how the inside is void. A tracer from behind does not look like that as it has no void.

The streak effect I was referring to is the effect YOU were talking about. (Remember your flashlight / candle analogy?) That only can happen if you are trying to focus on a single round.

Who said a dot of light didn't have a trail? A tracer produces a streak of light meaning not just a dot (depending on your offset position) And once you actually fire them, you'll realize that the front of that trail and the back of that trail look virtually identical (aka a straight line). And that line is there because your eyes are not good enough to simply focus on an object moving at that rate of speed. That's why once you TRY to do this that line can get all sorts of goofy looking.

I'm done arguing. This is pointless.


If you'd said you didn't think it was worth including, or that you don't want it including or that you're 100% happy with the CoD tracers then I would have let it go, that's your opinion. I have no problem with that. None.

When you are telling me that 'my' theory is wrong when its demonstrably right, then I'll defend it.

'O' is an example of the outline of a circle. Colour it in, guess what? it's still a circle. Why are you even arguing this point?

[ATAG_Bliss]

You have nothing to defend because when you are firing a weapon you do not focus on the round coming out of the weapon and therefore any thought about what that looks like is completely moot.

It's as if this entire conversation is completely over your head.

And yes I'm completely happy with COD tracers because they are one of the few I've ever seen in a game that actually look realistic.

And why would I ever say what you are wanting is worth including? It's not worth including because if you are 1st of all, firing a weapon with live ammunition, and 2ndly at a target, if you are sitting there trying to watch the rounds instead of the target, you shouldn't even be allowed to hold a gun in the 1st place.

And the way they look is not my opinion. It's fact. You should let it go because you don't know what you're talking about. And your back peddling on the issue shows just that.

[yellonet]

Here's a video showing what I think winny means. The tracers seemingly curves away.
It's quite obvious at 1:23 and 6:55.
Some skilled formation flying at 7:23 too.
Overall a good guncam video (except that some moron thought there was a need for music to dramatize it) if a bit grim when you consider what it is you're watching.
Is this in the game already?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8rFPLN_Fg

[winny]

You have nothing to defend because when you are firing a weapon you do not focus on the round coming out of the weapon and therefore any thought about what that looks like is completely moot.

It's as if this entire conversation is completely over your head.

And yes I'm completely happy with COD tracers because they are one of the few I've ever seen in a game that actually look realistic.

And why would I ever say what you are wanting is worth including? It's not worth including because if you are 1st of all, firing a weapon with live ammunition, and 2ndly at a target, if you are sitting there trying to watch the rounds instead of the target, you shouldn't even be allowed to hold a gun in the 1st place.

And the way they look is not my opinion. It's fact. You should let it go because you don't know what you're talking about. And your back peddling on the issue shows just that.


I'm not back peddling.

So in your opinion tracers stay straight no matter what movement occurs at the viewing end? That just shows ignorance of some very basic rules.

If they dont bow slightly they are breaking the laws of physics.

If you are flying in a tight right hand turn firing your guns in cod you can see the tracer go off screen to the left. This means that they must be moving right to left and if there is movement right to left this has to effect the streaks angle as the dot of light has to draw the streak at 180 degrees to the movement across the eye/screen.

If you draw out 5 'frames' from cod and trace out the starting point and end point and 3 points between of the dot of light, accounting for sideways movement, you get a curved path.

At any point along this path the streak must be inside it because thats where the dot of light went. CoD is in effect drawing in light where it has never been.

I 100% know what I'm talking about.

You just don't get it.

Like I said I'm not asking for anyone to implement this in game.

This about what I can prove that happens against what you say doesn't.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Yes tracers stay straight. Why do you think a sniper rifle can and will hit someone at over 1 click away? Because the path of a speeding bullet is a very straight line. It doesn't matter if I'm wearing a ballerina suit and smoking pixy dust. That bullet will always go straight. As far as what you SEE is changing, for the upteen time, THIS HAPPENS IN GAME. Pull some G's and you'll get bending light to your visual view, based EXACTLY on how you are turning, climbing, or diving while firing.

So you can't ask for someone to implement something in game that is ALREADY THERE. Good god.

[ElAurens]

Exactly.

Bullets do have a trajectory in the form of an arc. They rise after exiting the barrel then fall off (down) after some distance (100s of yards in the case of rifles and heavy machine guns). Bullets do not curve to either side no matter how fast the barrel is traversing. Once it leaves the barrel it travels in a straight line.

They are not like baseballs that can be made to curve mid flight because of aerodynamic effects on the stitching on the ball's cover. Bullets spin at a high rate for a reason. This is to make them stable in flight so they go straight.

[Phazon]

My main concern with the current tracers effect is its way too clean looking.

I would imagine in real-life a tracer would have a sort of burn-in effect on your eyes where you would see an afterimage of the tracer which would make it appear longer with a fading trail. The tracer rounds in ArmA 2 are like this and to me it looks more like the real-thing.

I'm only just going off things that I've seen that are really bright such as burning magnesium and welding, but I imagine tracer rounds would be very similar.

[Wolf_Rider]

I agree... a fading out, not a tapering off

[winny]

Yes tracers stay straight. Why do you think a sniper rifle can and will hit someone at over 1 click away? Because the path of a speeding bullet is a very straight line. It doesn't matter if I'm wearing a ballerina suit and smoking pixy dust. That bullet will always go straight. As far as what you SEE is changing, for the upteen time, THIS HAPPENS IN GAME. Pull some G's and you'll get bending light to your visual view, based EXACTLY on how you are turning, climbing, or diving while firing.

So you can't ask for someone to implement something in game that is ALREADY THERE. Good god.

How many times have I said that the bullet goes straight? Quite a few!

Forget about what the bullet is doing in 3D, its irrelevant, it's the path across the screen that matters.

I'm not takling about the cause, I'm talking about the effect.

It's not already there. The ones in game dont curve, it's a secondary effect created by the rendered streaks, in effect, tracer off the tracer.

Why are you shouting at me ?

I assure you I'm not stupid.

You've gone from telling me that what I said does not happen, to now say it's already in the game.. Despite the fact that according to you it doesn't happen.

[yellonet]

Exactly.

Bullets do have a trajectory in the form of an arc. They rise after exiting the barrel then fall off (down) after some distance (100s of yards in the case of rifles and heavy machine guns).Bullets only rise because the barrel is pointing up, and there's no set distance for when the bullet drops below the aim point, that's up to bullet speed and how high you aim. Bullets do not curve to either side no matter how fast the barrel is traversing. Once it leaves the barrel it travels in a straight line.They don't curve, but the sidewards motion of the barrel will be transferred to the bullet. If the bullet travels in direction x while being fired it will continue to do so after it leaves the barrel.

[yellonet]

Could someone please create a movie of this effect in the game, I have not seen it.

[ATAG_Bliss]

You've gone from telling me that what I said does not happen, to now say it's already in the game.. Despite the fact that according to you it doesn't happen.

That's because you've gone from saying tracers should look like the same effect as someone waving a candle or flashlight to back peddling and saying the viewing angle is incorrect.

And for someone that says they are not stupid, then why don't you heed to the advice of someone who knows exactly what tracer ammunition looks like by being part of their job? You're trying to say that my daily experience with something is wrong because of what you read in a physics book.

All I can say is what we have in game, with regards to bending light and what your eye ball will see it as, is spot on. And unlike you, I know this from 1st hand experience virtually on a daily basis. I'm sick and tired of hearing the same BS from people like you that don't have the 1st clue about the subject in the 1st place. If you actually knew anything about physics then you'd also realize that at the speed of the bullet, your body would have to be jolted in such a way that's almost, if not entirely, life threatening to have any effect whatsoever with regards to how the round will look.

That's why it's laughable when your whole argument that you were talking about at SimHq with regards to a waving flashlight or candle is ridiculous. Once you realize that a tracer round from start to finish (in your viewing angle) disappears in a split second (depending on your offset / ammunition) you'll also realize that for the light to do anything in that short amount of time (through your naked eye) that your body has to be jolted in a HUGE way to even think about having any sort of effect of straightness of a tracer round to your naked eye.

You are not getting it, and by you arguing with someone that works with the subject matter on a daily basis, it's quite clear that you never will.

[yellonet]

Has anyone even bothered to watch the video I linked to? :confused:
So that we know that we are talking about the same effect.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Has anyone even bothered to watch the video I linked to? :confused:
So that we know that we are talking about the same effect.

yellonet,

Yes I have. Seen it before some time ago. But that slowed down video in no way, shape, or form represents anything close to what your naked eye sees with regards to tracer rounds. That's why there's this huge retarded argument in the 1st place. Everyone thinks tracers look like either what they see with a video or old gun cam footage and they simply don't. The camera is creating that effect. About the only time you can trust video footage is if both the camera and the weapon are stationary and/or it's a modern digital video recorder. Even then, streaks of light are much longer than what your eye will see them as. This is why modern electronic weapons use image stabilization to try and create a "float" effect with regards to how the weapons IR/VIS cameras are non-isolated, compared to a solid fixed mount that you would stare out of the optics with. Before imagestab was created, just watching a gunner screen (monitor) would make you have a headache with all the shaking around of the image. Imagestab is a huge improvement, but absolutely nothing like the ability of the water/flesh suspension system are bodies have for stabilizing an image.

[Sammi79]

The tracers in game do not look realistic, Syn_Bliss. For a start there are far too many, there is no (faint) smoke trail, and the recoil does not effect the trajectory as it should. the result is that each tracer round follows almost an identical path to the previos one and among other obvious things from gun camera footage (I already agreed that the wobble is down to camera shake) there is a much greater spread when these guns are fired.

Now you may berate me and say I have no real life experience on this matter, however, your real life experience comes from firing modern weapons with modern ammunition, on modern weapon mountings, please correct me if I'm wrong on this (I am assuming) - Therefore your view on how the tracers should look is flawed also. There are other things that can affect the rounds - tumbling and so forth - that can cause the odd round to fly off in an unexpected trajectory, even spiralling through the air (yes I know very rarely but..) Remember that the guns you fire most likely have a much higher muzzle velocity & rate of fire than these antiquated WWII weapons, causing straighter trajectories, longer looking tracers, etc. Chemicals and methods used for tracer have surely been changed and refined in the time since 1945. - Less smoke, brighter, less deviation compared to normal rounds etc...

You have already stated that rounds fired from your point of view look like a dot, no? so when in game they look like a streak something is wrong. Watch Yellnets linked video to see the spread effect I am on about, aswell as the fewer number of actual tracer rounds, and the smoke trails. The camera is not creating these effects now is it.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Especially for you chaps.

I think the tracers are fine as they are. This is max 480p, my upload speed is hopeless.
Notice the showers of sparks as the Heinkels are hit also. Very cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyM8umTulio

[yellonet]

yellonet,

Yes I have. Seen it before some time ago. But that slowed down video in no way, shape, or form represents anything close to what your naked eye sees with regards to tracer rounds. That's why there's this huge retarded argument in the 1st place. Everyone thinks tracers look like either what they see with a video or old gun cam footage and they simply don't. The camera is creating that effect. About the only time you can trust video footage is if both the camera and the weapon are stationary and/or it's a modern digital video recorder. Even then, streaks of light are much longer than what your eye will see them as. This is why modern electronic weapons use image stabilization to try and create a "float" effect with regards to how the weapons IR/VIS cameras are non-isolated, compared to a solid fixed mount that you would stare out of the optics with. Before imagestab was created, just watching a gunner screen (monitor) would make you have a headache with all the shaking around of the image. Imagestab is a huge improvement, but absolutely nothing like the ability of the water/flesh suspension system are bodies have for stabilizing an image.

The human eye have the equivalent shutter speed of 1/60 s.
If you set a video camera to record with that shutter speed it should result in video that shows approximately what one would see in person.

[winny]

That's because you've gone from saying tracers should look like the same effect as someone waving a candle or flashlight to back peddling and saying the viewing angle is incorrect.

And for someone that says they are not stupid, then why don't you heed to the advice of someone who knows exactly what tracer ammunition looks like by being part of their job? You're trying to say that my daily experience with something is wrong because of what you read in a physics book.

All I can say is what we have in game, with regards to bending light and what your eye ball will see it as, is spot on. And unlike you, I know this from 1st hand experience virtually on a daily basis. I'm sick and tired of hearing the same BS from people like you that don't have the 1st clue about the subject in the 1st place. If you actually knew anything about physics then you'd also realize that at the speed of the bullet, your body would have to be jolted in such a way that's almost, if not entirely, life threatening to have any effect whatsoever with regards to how the round will look.

That's why it's laughable when your whole argument that you were talking about at SimHq with regards to a waving flashlight or candle is ridiculous. Once you realize that a tracer round from start to finish (in your viewing angle) disappears in a split second (depending on your offset / ammunition) you'll also realize that for the light to do anything in that short amount of time (through your naked eye) that your body has to be jolted in a HUGE way to even think about having any sort of effect of straightness of a tracer round to your naked eye.

You are not getting it, and by you arguing with someone that works with the subject matter on a daily basis, it's quite clear that you never will.

Rubbish.
The light's / candle reference is relevant, it's a moving light source, same as a tracer round.

I have always said that they don't follow the correct path, and they dont.

I don't heed your experience because you are 100% wrong in what you say.

Are you a WW2 fighter pilot? No. So by your own rule you can't comment on this.

An inescapeable truth is that CoD draws light in where it has never been.
No matter what you say, this is the case. I can prove it.

You prove that I'm wrong if you are so confident.

I know more about physics than you do otherwise you would not be arguing.

How many times do I have to say that I don't need any experience of firing tracers, I just need to understand cause and effect and be able to plot a bullets path relative to the viewer. That is all.
CoD draws 3D tracer streaks when in fact they are 2D. It's this that causes the difference between RL and CoD.

End Of.

[winny]

Especially for you chaps.

I think the tracers are fine as they are. This is max 480p, my upload speed is hopeless.
Notice the showers of sparks as the Heinkels are hit also. Very cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyM8umTulio

Just for the record can I say that they do look pretty good.

I'm not bashing CoD, I'm not arguing for 'my' way.

I'm just pointing out a subtle difference between RL and video game tracer.

Thanks for posting it. Any chance you could make it available to download?

[raaaid]

i agree with the eyes having fps ive experienced an stroboscopic effect in real life

in fact some pilots would use the stroboscopic effect to adjust prop rpm

but you should know mainstream science disagrees with that

its called persistence of vision ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision

[ATAG_Bliss]

Rubbish.
The light's / candle reference is relevant, it's a moving light source, same as a tracer round.

I have always said that they don't follow the correct path, and they dont.

I don't heed your experience because you are 100% wrong in what you say.

Are you a WW2 fighter pilot? No. So by your own rule you can't comment on this.

An inescapeable truth is that CoD draws light in where it has never been.
No matter what you say, this is the case. I can prove it.

You prove that I'm wrong if you are so confident.

I know more about physics than you do otherwise you would not be arguing.

How many times do I have to say that I don't need any experience of firing tracers, I just need to understand cause and effect and be able to plot a bullets path relative to the viewer. That is all.
CoD draws 3D tracer streaks when in fact they are 2D. It's this that causes the difference between RL and CoD.

End Of.

You are beyond help. And you are grasping at straws.

No kidding about the 2d and 3d thing. That's the 1st thing I said about the hardware limitations.

But by all means, please show me your way to PROVE how it's soo wrong.

Can't wait for your science. And I highly doubt you know more about physics than me considering I have a BSME from Rose Hulman.

Again, it's as if the ENTIRE conversation has gone over your head and I'm done discussing it with an imbecile.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Any chance you could make it available to download?

Sorry Winny, I wouldn't know how! I suppose you could use fraps to capture it whilst in full screen mode, but the quality isn't too good for that.:(

[ATAG_Bliss]

The tracers in game do not look realistic, Syn_Bliss. For a start there are far too many, there is no (faint) smoke trail, and the recoil does not effect the trajectory as it should. the result is that each tracer round follows almost an identical path to the previos one and among other obvious things from gun camera footage (I already agreed that the wobble is down to camera shake) there is a much greater spread when these guns are fired.

Now you may berate me and say I have no real life experience on this matter, however, your real life experience comes from firing modern weapons with modern ammunition, on modern weapon mountings, please correct me if I'm wrong on this (I am assuming) - Therefore your view on how the tracers should look is flawed also. There are other things that can affect the rounds - tumbling and so forth - that can cause the odd round to fly off in an unexpected trajectory, even spiralling through the air (yes I know very rarely but..) Remember that the guns you fire most likely have a much higher muzzle velocity & rate of fire than these antiquated WWII weapons, causing straighter trajectories, longer looking tracers, etc. Chemicals and methods used for tracer have surely been changed and refined in the time since 1945. - Less smoke, brighter, less deviation compared to normal rounds etc...

You have already stated that rounds fired from your point of view look like a dot, no? so when in game they look like a streak something is wrong. Watch Yellnets linked video to see the spread effect I am on about, aswell as the fewer number of actual tracer rounds, and the smoke trails. The camera is not creating these effects now is it.

Most of the ammunition that the British used did not leave a smoke trail. The "vapor" trail that you see in some gun cam footage happens because of an atmospheric condition and not the round itself. Again, this only happened when the atmospheric conditions were correct for it. That's why you can see RAF gun cams with and without smoke/vapor trails.

2ndly the guns were more firmly fixed in warbirds than any modern day turret.

I've fired about every single variant of machine gun ever made. The .50 has been around since early 1900's. That's a moot point. If someone was aiming the machine guns on a stationary plane and test firing them through a target and you had bullets flying all over the place on that target board, you have some serious weapon problems. They will maintain a certain radius for each weapon fired, and if you think you can physically see the changes in this small radius while firing, you wouldn't be human.

I'm not disagreeing that there are too many tracers, but again, that is not the point of this topic.

As far as the dot thing goes, when you have an offset (guns are on either side of you converging) that's when you'll see streaks of light, and guess what?.., with wing mounted machine guns, they are heavily offset from your POV.


All the physics in the world does not change how they appear simply because you are not calculating in the fact that you are flying and maintaining the same speed and distance as the weapons themselves on the plane. You might as well be standing still. That's why the rounds start arcing to the eye under extreme forces. And this is evident in game.

[winny]

You are beyond help. And you are grasping at straws.

No kidding about the 2d and 3d thing. That's the 1st thing I said about the hardware limitations.

But by all means, please show me your way to PROVE how it's soo wrong.

Can't wait for your science. And I highly doubt you know more about physics than me considering I have a BSME from Rose Hulman.

Again, it's as if the ENTIRE conversation has gone over your head and I'm done discussing it with an imbecile.

Why are you getting personal? Can't you debate a point without resorting to calling me an imbecile?

Soo wrong? It's either wrong or it's right. Now you're also getting sarcastic.

If the path of the dot of light (relative to the viewer) is curved then the streak must also be curved. Put your BSME into practice and demonstrate to me how what is essentially a continuous curved line that fades away can leave repeated straight lines that don't point to where they came from behind it?

[klem]

taka taka taka taka taka ...

you're dead.

Serves you right for studying those streaks instead of your tail.
This has to be the umpteenth thread on this over-taxed subject. It isn't likely to change. Check the other threads.

[Sammi79]

Most of the ammunition that the British used did not leave a smoke trail. The "vapor" trail that you see in some gun cam footage happens because of an atmospheric condition and not the round itself. Again, this only happened when the atmospheric conditions were correct for it. That's why you can see RAF gun cams with and without smoke/vapor trails.

Ahh, Ok thankyou for enlightening me on that. could still argue it should be present in game.

2ndly the guns were more firmly fixed in warbirds than any modern day turret.

Yes I agree, but the warbird itself is certainly not firmly fixed and would vibrate quite a lot (even the airframe itself can and will flex) especially when firing heavier calibre cannons and such. Like I say is very apparent in not just a few but every single piece of gun camera footage you can find. The rounds should spread more. ATM they don't seem to spread at all, or just barely. I guess this could be a flight model issue though as opposed to a bullet model. Maybe the plane just needs to shake more...

As far as the dot thing goes, when you have an offset (guns are on either side of you converging) that's when you'll see streaks of light, and guess what?.., with wing mounted machine guns, they are heavily offset from your POV.

No, really? I'm not getting that, could you explain it again? no need to be patronising SYN_Bliss. Even you must admit that they are too long though.


All the physics in the world does not change how they appear simply because you are not calculating in the fact that you are flying and maintaining the same speed and distance as the weapons themselves on the plane. You might as well be standing still. That's why the rounds start arcing to the eye under extreme forces. And this is evident in game.

All rounds arc in reality its due to gravity and friction. As the friction with air slows the round down, gravity changes its trajectory more and more. No fired round ever followed a straight line. ever. period. Across a distance of more than a few hundred yards, this would be apparent, particularly looking down the direction of travel, unless you have a very high muzzle velocity then it would take a greater distance, but still.

[ATAG_Bliss]

If the path of the dot of light (relative to the viewer) is curved then the streak must also be curved. Put your BSME into practice and demonstrate to me how what is essentially a continuous curved line that fades away can leave repeated straight lines that don't point to where they came from behind it?

I'm getting personal because no matter what I show or tell you, you still don't listen.

Take a light source, say a laser pen light with a room full of smoke and point it towards something 5 ft away in a fixed position, so you can see the beam of light. Now have this light pattern repeat very rapidly. As this light source is switched on and off it will not matter one IOTA where you are standing or viewing the light. It will always be in a straight line UNLESS, you got hit by a freight train or decided to pull a few G's out of your butt while standing still. Your eye's WILL ALWAYS SEE THIS LINE AS STRAIGHT.

That is simple physics. You may see the line shorter or at a different angle depending on your viewing angle but viewing the trajectory of said moving object that produces the light trajectory will always be viewed in the in the same direction and trajectory that said object is traveling. (UNLESS as stated above)

If you can't understand that, then you need to take a remedial science class. Or you could quite simply fire and observe 1000's of rounds of tracer ammunition from fixed and high speed moving positions.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Yes I agree, but the warbird itself is certainly not firmly fixed and would vibrate quite a lot (even the airframe itself can and will flex) especially when firing heavier calibre cannons and such. Like I say is very apparent in not just a few but every single piece of gun camera footage you can find. The rounds should spread more. ATM they don't seem to spread at all, or just barely. I guess this could be a flight model issue though as opposed to a bullet model. Maybe the plane just needs to shake more...

You'd be surprised at how little shake a .303 round would have on an being fired from a heavy warbird let alone just hip firing that same machine gun.



SYN_Bliss. Even you must admit that they are too long though.

Actually, in same cases, they may be too short, but I think what they have now is good middle ground.




All rounds arc in reality its due to gravity and friction. As the friction with air slows the round down, gravity changes its trajectory more and more. No fired round ever followed a straight line. ever. period. Across a distance of more than a few hundred yards, this would be apparent, particularly looking down the direction of travel, unless you have a very high muzzle velocity then it would take a greater distance, but still.

Now this is patronizing, but has nothing to do with the discussion. The only point of the arc we care about is the miniscule amount that you'll actually see while a tracer is moving (which funny enough, you can't even see!). If you only see a 5ft section of movement till it disappears from leaving the weapon to out of visual range,.,... that 5ft section (streak of light) following the round will always appear perfectly straight because in the short time frame of the tracer you see (5ft) the trajectory drop is so insignificant it's not even worth mentioning.

[Das Attorney]

All rounds arc in reality its due to gravity and friction. As the friction with air slows the round down, gravity changes its trajectory more and more. No fired round ever followed a straight line. ever. period. Across a distance of more than a few hundred yards, this would be apparent, particularly looking down the direction of travel, unless you have a very high muzzle velocity then it would take a greater distance, but still.

This is true. If viewed long enough, it would be apparent that the trajectory of the bullet is curved (due to gravity).

However, the tracers in this game burn out mostly between 300 - 500 yards. During this initial distance, the tracers should appear roughly in a straight line. Even a .303 round (small fry in this sim) has sufficient energy to maintain a relatively flat flight path over the comparatively small distances they were used in by the RAF.

I think there is a tracer round that burns up to 800 yards, but I haven't tried it in game.

Anyway, it's a trifling point. The tracers in game do their job. I'm not too bothered if there are any inaccuracies. I'd much prefer them to fix the sound issues etc! ;)

[Wolf_Rider]

The human eye have the equivalent shutter speed of 1/60 s.
If you set a video camera to record with that shutter speed it should result in video that shows approximately what one would see in person.

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screen




That's why the rounds start arcing to the eye under extreme forces. And this is evident in game.



actually, the stream will arc physically if the barrel tip is being moved about at a great manner, such as in deflection shooting, or "hosing" down a target with a GAU... but only in relation to the round fired immediately after (the same as "hosing" off the front path and seeing what the water stream does as the nozzle is moved about) But, in any case, the tracers still are straight and the round still flies straight (taking into account, as mentioned earlier, gravity, projectile launch power, and atmospheric conditions)

[yellonet]

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screenAnd 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

[yellonet]

The thing is that under the right circumstances the light streak will bend. And as with all tracer streaks it's not really happening but is only an illusion that occurs in the eye of the beholder so to speak.

No one is talking about bullet trajectory - the trajectory could be straight as a laser, the discussed effect would still occur.

And unless you have experience flying an aircraft and firing loads of tracers in sharp turns any amount of firing tracers from fixed positions will not get you to observe the phenomenon, so that experience is for this discussion completely inconsequential.

I for one would really like to see the effect in the game as it would probably look really good from external views.

[Wolf_Rider]

There is no "equivalent" to shutterspeed or anything like your train of thought there, yellonet, for the human eye. The human eye does not have a shutter.
All that lovely flowing milk, etc, you see in tv adverts, is usually shot at up around 300 ~ 500 frames/ second and sync'd.
Light doesn't bend, except supposedly under extreme magnetic influence... you're confusing afterimage in relation to the eye and the round's velocity... as for the human eye can following the round, I have seen Samurai slice an oncoming bullet in half with a katana but that is in an exceptional circumstance after dedicated training.

the tracer streak doesn't bend, twist, distort or anything, yellonet... the stream does, but not the individual streaks

[winny]

I'm getting personal because no matter what I show or tell you, you still don't listen.

Take a light source, say a laser pen light with a room full of smoke and point it towards something 5 ft away in a fixed position, so you can see the beam of light. Now have this light pattern repeat very rapidly. As this light source is switched on and off it will not matter one IOTA where you are standing or viewing the light. It will always be in a straight line UNLESS, you got hit by a freight train or decided to pull a few G's out of your butt while standing still. Your eye's WILL ALWAYS SEE THIS LINE AS STRAIGHT.

That is simple physics. You may see the line shorter or at a different angle depending on your viewing angle but viewing the trajectory of said moving object that produces the light trajectory will always be viewed in the in the same direction and trajectory that said object is traveling. (UNLESS as stated above)

If you can't understand that, then you need to take a remedial science class. Or you could quite simply fire and observe 1000's of rounds of tracer ammunition from fixed and high speed moving positions.


A Laser beam is physical, tracer streak is not, it's an effect. You cannot compare. As you already said, tracer rounds are dots not beams of light. Different.

You need to take the basic science class not me. If the tracer left a trail of smoke that would be straight no matter what becuse it actually exists. Tracer streak can only exist when it's being viewed. It's not 'there' all the time. It's a dot, or is it a circle or is it 2 circles on top of each other?

You are all over the place. Trajectory is an objects path in a 3d space and we're not dealing in 3d.

Have you ever seen the wobbly pencil trick where you take a real pencil and move it up and down in such a way that it appears to bend? It must be real magic to you...

[ATAG_Bliss]

A Laser beam is physical, tracer streak is not, it's an effect. You cannot compare. As you already said, tracer rounds are dots not beams of light. Different.

You need to take the basic science class not me. If the tracer left a trail of smoke that would be straight no matter what becuse it actually exists. Tracer streak can only exist when it's being viewed. It's not 'there' all the time. It's a dot, or is it a circle or is it 2 circles on top of each other?

You are all over the place. Trajectory is an objects path in a 3d space and we're not dealing in 3d.

Have you ever seen the wobbly pencil trick where you take a real pencil and move it up and down in such a way that it appears to bend? It must be real magic to you...

Holy fricken cow. I'm talking to a 5 year old. I was trying to give you a way to see the effect that you are soo sure happens without actually using a machine gun. So the only thing I can suggest now is to pay someone in the military to set up a range so you can sit there and watch an automatic weapon with tracer rounds fire down range. That way you could run back and forth, jump up and down, clap your hands together and maybe, just maybe as you are spinning 360's and jumping up and down while watching real life ammunition go down range with your own real life eye balls, then you could finally see for your self they move fricken straight.

And for the 100000000000000X, the ONLY reason the pencil "trick" fools your eyeballs is when you are FOCUSING on said pencil. You DO NOT FRICKEN FOCUS ON AN INDIVIDUAL TRACER ROUND WHILE FIRING A WEAPON.

What a complete and utter retard.

[winny]

No I'm 37.

Retard?

What are you focusing on in CoD? Everything, infinite focal length.

Anyway, here's a diagram. It shows the fight path of 1 bullet between 2 points in time, 1 and 2.

The bullet (Black dot) is fired at X as the aircraft is moving to the left. I have then marked it at several points through it's flight. Not to scale but it works whatever the sideways movement.

At all points the bullet stays straight, aligned to the original target (red lines to the X)

Because its a single point of light we can track where the bullet must have been relative to the viewer. It cannot jump, it must take a continuous path.

This is the purple line, the actual relative path across the eye. It is where the light went. CoD draws tracers aligned to the straight red line (line of flight) when the true path of the point of light across the image is the purple line. The light streak can only exist within this line.

Please let me know, with all of your experience and physics knowledge what part of this is wrong?

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz147/winistrone/TracerDiagramcopy.jpg

[ATAG_Bliss]

I've already told you enough times that I've lost count, but here goes again: When you move your airplane after you've fired in this sim, the tracers change from your focal point and depending on where you are viewing them they can appear as a dot, a long streak of light, or any variation in between. And for the upteen time, depending on the G's you are pulling while firing you can actually see this light bend.

The diagram you drew out is exactly what happens in the game. The problem that you still yet don't seem to understand is by the time you've changed position to view them differently or to have them change the viewing angle, they are already long gone, such as real life. That's why your attempt at some sort of photoshop masterpiece is a joke. You again are assuming you are looking at point 1 to point 2 when in reality when firing a weapon you are looking at point 3, the actual target.

And I've already let you know in virtually every single post what is wrong with not only your way of thinking, your way of using a weapon, and the way they look. No amount of pictures you produced will change that. And no amount of arm chair experience will ever change that. You are flat out wrong. Thanks again for the confirmation with each and every one of your posts.

[yellonet]

There is no "equivalent" to shutterspeed or anything like your train of thought there, yellonet, for the human eye. The human eye does not have a shutter.
All that lovely flowing milk, etc, you see in tv adverts, is usually shot at up around 300 ~ 500 frames/ second and sync'd.
Light doesn't bend, except supposedly under extreme magnetic influence... you're confusing afterimage in relation to the eye and the round's velocity... as for the human eye can following the round, I have seen Samurai slice an oncoming bullet in half with a katana but that is in an exceptional circumstance after dedicated training.Ugh, I don't know why I have to say this as I thought it was quite evident that I just used the "shutter speed" as a metaphor to explain how quick changes the eye/brain can register.
Of course the eye has no shutter.
But regarding this discussion, watching a tracer filmed with a shutterspeed of 1/60 should look similar to what one would see in person.

the tracer streak doesn't bend, twist, distort or anything, yellonet... the stream does, but not the individual streaksIt does bend. How would the "stream" bend but not the individual streaks?
That could only happen if the streaks where physical rigid objects sticking out of the bullet. Which the streaks are not.

[winny]

And for the upteen time, depending on the G's you are pulling while firing you can actually see this light bend.



Are you sh***ng me? ALL I HAVE EVER SAID IS THAT A TRACERS STREAK CAN CURVE!

Why are you arguing with me? You're the one who said the stay straight, not me.

[kalimba]

MOuhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaa !

You know that this subject has been debated since last year ?
And initially, and actually the ONLY Luthier's response about tracers in COD was : those COD's tracers are PERFECT and there is nothing wrong with them so we wont change a thing about them....
If anyone can show at least 1 guncam or video or whatever that comes even close to what we see in COD's , then I will be convinced....Until then...
You guys are very funny insulting each other about physics, anatomy of the eye, and laser beams, :confused: but in the end, it only takes a good programmer to give us something that would give the impression of what actual tracers would look like from a pilot point of view....Something that would satisfy both RL observers AND
those who only saw ww2 guncams....Cause right now, neither side is happy !

Salute !

[winny]

MOuhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaa !

You know that this subject has been debated since last year ?
And initially, and actually the ONLY Luthier's response about tracers in COD was : those COD's tracers are PERFECT and there is nothing wrong with them so we wont change a thing about them....
If anyone can show at least 1 guncam or video or whatever that comes even close to what we see in COD's , then I will be convinced....Until then...
You guys are very funny insulting each other about physics, anatomy of the eye, and laser beams, :confused: but in the end, it only takes a good programmer to give us something that would give the impression of what actual tracers would look like from a pilot point of view....Something that would satisfy both RL observers AND
those who only saw ww2 guncams....Cause right now, neither side is happy !

Salute !

You've just reminded me..

Illya also said somewhere (it could have been Oleg, I haven't looked for it) that they initially tried to model them as tracked points of light. The problem they ran into was frame rates.

The lower the frame rate the longer the streak appeared and even at 30 fps the streak was way too long, they had to make a compromise.

That compromise was I think probably, to make the trails, to all intents and purposes, physical objects.

All I was suggesting was that maybe the developers could think about programing tracer streaks relative to motion across the screen, ie. Think in 2D and just paint them in behind, length realtive to speed. Do away with the physical 'bars'.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Are you sh***ng me? ALL I HAVE EVER SAID IS THAT A TRACERS STREAK CAN CURVE!

Why are you arguing with me? You're the one who said the stay straight, not me.

And this proves exactly what I've been saying all along. You don't listen to a word you've been told. Why don't you go ahead and try reading what I wrote about 10 times now where I've been stating all along that the line can and will bend ONLY if for example, you are pulling extreme G's, your body got moved in such an extreme force (aka me saying if you were hit by a freight train) etc. etc..

Before you backpeddle any further, I suggest you actually read what has been written next time. I would have thought saying the same thing 20 times now would have sank in to most people without an infant mentality. Congrats.

[ElAurens]

Bullets only rise because the barrel is pointing up, and there's no set distance for when the bullet drops below the aim point, that's up to bullet speed and how high you aim. They don't curve, but the sidewards motion of the barrel will be transferred to the bullet. If the bullet travels in direction x while being fired it will continue to do so after it leaves the barrel.

Um, no, to the lot of this.

[winny]

And this proves exactly what I've been saying all along. You don't listen to a word you've been told. Why don't you go ahead and try reading what I wrote about 10 times now where I've been stating all along that the line can and will bend ONLY if for example, you are pulling extreme G's, your body got moved in such an extreme force (aka me saying if you were hit by a freight train) etc. etc..

Before you backpeddle any further, I suggest you actually read what has been written next time. I would have thought saying the same thing 20 times now would have sank in to most people without an infant mentality. Congrats.


How am I back peddling?

My position hasn't changed from day 1. I said tracer moves around due to movement.

The problem in cod is that at all times even under high G the tails remain perfectly straight it's almost like they are skidding along the arc they follow, back end slightly out.

They only point to where they are going with no regard to where they were in the previous frame. I've never see a curved bar of light in cod. That's my point.

The fact still remains that my whole argument has been that tracer can appear to curve. You are saying that they only curve under high G.

I'm saying it's a scalable phenomenon and that it happens with any movement and increases relative to speed, I don't know at what point it becomes percepitble, but it does not just switch on ond off at high G, it's incremental.

The thing is, my suggestion to treat it as 2d paint trail would eliminate the question of if you can notice it or not, because you'd noitce it if you could, and not have to render lots of fake bars of light.

I still don't understand why you're arguing with me.

[ATAG_Dutch]

When i was a mere stripling, on November the 5th, I used to write my name in the air with a sparkler.

[ATAG_Bliss]

My position hasn't changed from day 1. I said tracer moves around due to movement.

Nope. Wrong again. The only time a tracer will move around (bend) to your naked eye is when you overcome the image stab that is built into our bodies. Good luck doing that under any sort of condition short of a life threatening jolt, or very high G's.

The problem in cod is that at all times even under high G the tails remain perfectly straight it's almost like they are skidding along the arc they follow, back end slightly out.

Wrong again. Many videos including pulse show a slight arc, even if exaggerated in my opinion based on experience from firing while moving at a high rate of speed.

They only point to where they are going with no regard to where they were in the previous frame. I've never see a curved bar of light in cod. That's my point.

Again, I can only assume you've never even played the game.

The fact still remains that my whole argument has been that tracer can appear to curve. You are saying that they only curve under high G.

Yep, that's how your eyeballs work. That's why if you knew anything about the subject at hand you'd realize the effects you describe come from a camera.

I'm saying it's a scalable phenomenon and that it happens with any movement and increases relative to speed, I don't know at what point it becomes percepitble, but it does not just switch on ond off at high G, it's incremental.
.

Nope. Wrong again as explained over and over. Come to the US sometime. I'll drive a vehicle at a high rate of speed and fire a weapon directly perpendicular to the direction of the vehicle,s direction of travel and maybe, just maybe, once and for all you can finally realize that the rounds you see will not be bending. But again, don't take it from someone that has years of experience on the subject matter. Either way, I'm sure the devs will not include your hollywood effects anytime soon. They seem to have actually have knowledge on the subject unlike what you have made painstakingly clear.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Come to the US sometime. I'll drive a vehicle at a high rate of speed and fire a weapon directly perpendicular to the direction of the vehicle,s direction of travel and maybe, just maybe, once and for all you can finally realize that the rounds you see will not be bending.

I hope that's an open offer!

I'll pay for the tracers and beer!!!!! ;)

An oldie but a goodie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppS1W1Otbhc

[winny]

Nope. Wrong again. The only time a tracer will move around (bend) to your naked eye is when you overcome the image stab that is built into our bodies. Good luck doing that under any sort of condition short of a life threatening jolt, or very high G's.



Wrong again. Many videos including pulse show a slight arc, even if exaggerated in my opinion based on experience from firing while moving at a high rate of speed.



Again, I can only assume you've never even played the game.



Yep, that's how your eyeballs work. That's why if you knew anything about the subject at hand you'd realize the effects you describe come from a camera.





So your eyes straighten out things all by them self?
How does the human eye cancel out the movement of the plane? Vibration yes, but a turn? Are you serious?

Find me one single bent tracer streak, you can't draw a bent tracer using a line drawn between 2 points, (like the CoD tracer). They are rectangular polygons. and are always shown as this.

Your argument is all over the place , you call me a retard... But you can't understand that all of CoD tracers are made of 3D rectangles that cannot possibly bend. They are perfectly straight at all times.

Or are you going to ignore this rule too.

Find me a bent tracer streak in CoD or shut up..

[Wolf_Rider]

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.





how do you see that the "And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s."? because the human eye, does not have a shutter speed (fixed or variable) - it doesn't have a shutter, it doesn't have an FPS either (where it has to draw images to the brain at 60Hz)




winny...
recognise that bullet stream is bending not the tracers @ 0:55 (in the vid) identical to COD

[yellonet]

Um, no, to the lot of this.

So what you are saying is that the bullet will defy gravity and rise when being fired, instead of starting to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel.
Sorry but that is a myth created by people that doesn't understand how it really works, but please explain.

And you are also denying that if you as an example drive a car at 20 m/s and you fire a shot from that car at 90º to the right, after 1 second that shot will have gone the right (relative the direction of the shot) (about) 20 meters.
Please explain why this doesn't happen.

[yellonet]

Nope. Wrong again as explained over and over. Come to the US sometime. I'll drive a vehicle at a high rate of speed and fire a weapon directly perpendicular to the direction of the vehicle,s direction of travel and maybe, just maybe, once and for all you can finally realize that the rounds you see will not be bending. But again, don't take it from someone that has years of experience on the subject matter. Either way, I'm sure the devs will not include your hollywood effects anytime soon. They seem to have actually have knowledge on the subject unlike what you have made painstakingly clear.Either you're not driving fast enough, shooting far enough or just isn't looking at the tracer "stream", and by your own account it's the latter. So you can talk of experience all you want, it is still not relevant to this discussion.

If what you are saying would be true, it would not be possible to create a bent line or circle visible to the eyes with for instance a sparkler. And there is certainly no need to be under extreme forces just to see something like that with your eyes.

[yellonet]

When i was a mere stripling, on November the 5th, I used to write my name in the air with a sparkler.
According to Bliss' experience that is impossible. You must have imagined it.

[winny]

how do you see that the "And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s."? because the human eye, does not have a shutter speed (fixed or variable) - it doesn't have a shutter, it doesn't have an FPS either (where it has to draw images to the brain at 60Hz)




winny...
recognise that bullet stream is bending not the tracers @ 0:55 (in the vid) identical to COD

I'll have a look..
But I have already taken frames from the same video and drawn straight lines through the tracer and the vast majority are, when the camera is moving, very slightly curved, try it. Some are very curved btw.

I didn't just wake up one morning and think that I wanted to upset the banana forum, I did some research first.

I really don't want to continue repeating myself either, I imagine everyone is sick of me already! I am! :)

(I'm off to look for a Raaaid thread.. much more fun)

[ATAG_Bliss]

Either you're not driving fast enough, shooting far enough or just isn't looking at the tracer "stream", and by your own account it's the latter. So you can talk of experience all you want, it is still not relevant to this discussion.

If what you are saying would be true, it would not be possible to create a bent line or circle visible to the eyes with for instance a sparkler. And there is certainly no need to be under extreme forces just to see something like that with your eyes.

And another arm chair experienced weapons specialist.

Great!

Edit: And if you'd actually take the time to read what I wrote (which seems hard to do for some people) you'd realize that a sparkler has nothing to do with the discussion. Neither does staring at a tracer round while firing a weapon. The game has the tracers modeled to what you do in real life when firing a weapon. And that would be focus on the target you are shooting at. If you focus on a sparkler (which your eyes can actually do) you can cause all the retina burn you want. That image might stick around in your head for over a minute. But the thing you don't seem to realize is that a tracer will be gone from your POV in an instant. That's why the Helo video keeps getting brought up. It's going over 100mph in some spots while the gunner is firing almost perpendicular to in some instances to the direction of travel, yet the "curved" effect is hardly noticeable on a video. Well let me tell you something, an airplane just so happens to be traveling 99% of the time in the SAME direction that the guns are pointing. Guess what? That bend or arc that's hardly noticeable in a good video camera is much less pronounced when seeing this with your own naked eye. If you had experience on the subject at hand, just like winny, you wouldn't be trying to bring up a candle or a sparkler that you wave around with your hands and focus on it, and compare it to a high speed moving bullet. Kinda laughable.

[yellonet]

And another arm chair experienced weapons specialist.

Great!This effect has nothing to do with weapons. It's something that happens in the eye when viewing a source of light that is moving and/or if you are moving.

I guess you'll just ignore this but, please explain to us how it works, and no "because I say so" doesn't cut it.
How do you explain the patterns of light that can be created by moving a sparkler fast before your eyes? That's the same effect as firing a tracer and then altering your positing, weather its the light or the viewer that is moving is irrelevant as it's the relative motion that is important.

[ATAG_Dutch]

According to Bliss' experience that is impossible. You must have imagined it.

I suppose that what I was trying to point out here is that the physical behaviour of a tracer round in a geometrical sense is quite distinct from the retinal after image of any bright object in darkness.

If I remember optometry college rightly, (it's along time ago and I don't work in the industry anymore) the after image is caused by the bright object bleaching out the 'visual purple' pigment which stimulates the nerve impulse to the brain, and the after image stays until this pigment is regenerated by the cone cells of the retina. (if anyone is more knowledgable than this I'll stand corrected, a previous career can be like a previous life sometimes!).

I haven't followed Bliss and Winny's argument in detail, but I was just wondering whether this was the missing factor in establishing a common ground.;)

[ATAG_Bliss]

This effect has nothing to do with weapons. It's something that happens in the eye when viewing a source of light that is moving and/or if you are moving.

I guess you'll just ignore this but, please explain to us how it works, and no "because I say so" doesn't cut it.
How do you explain the patterns of light that can be created by moving a sparkler fast before your eyes? That's the same effect as firing a tracer and then altering your positing, weather its the light or the viewer that is moving is irrelevant as it's the relative motion that is important.

Well it's pretty easy. Go outside and stare at the sun for 10 seconds. You'll notice not only that your eyes will probably hurt but you'll have retinal burn and an image that appears in your mind for, at the very least, an additional 10 seconds after you're done staring at the sun.

Now walk around and don't stare at the sun. Even though the sun could be in your peripheral vision as you are looking straight ahead while walking down the street, you now don't have this image burned into your head. The reason being is that you are not focused on this image. While firing a weapon the tracer rounds come into your peripheral view as they go downrange towards the target. The concept is NO different. I've explained it more times than I count. I'm done posting in this thread.

[yellonet]

And another arm chair experienced weapons specialist.

Great!

Edit: And if you'd actually take the time to read what I wrote (which seems hard to do for some people) you'd realize that a sparkler has nothing to do with the discussion. Neither does staring at a tracer round while firing a weapon. The game has the tracers modeled to what you do in real life when firing a weapon. And that would be focus on the target you are shooting at. If you focus on a sparkler (which your eyes can actually do) you can cause all the retina burn you want. That image might stick around in your head for over a minute. But the thing you don't seem to realize is that a tracer will be gone from your POV in an instant. That's why the Helo video keeps getting brought up. It's going over 100mph in some spots while the gunner is firing almost perpendicular to in some instances to the direction of travel, yet the "curved" effect is hardly noticeable on a video. Well let me tell you something, an airplane just so happens to be traveling 99% of the time in the SAME direction that the guns are pointing. Guess what? That bend or arc that's hardly noticeable in a good video camera is much less pronounced when seeing this with your own naked eye. If you had experience on the subject at hand, just like winny, you wouldn't be trying to bring up a candle or a sparkler that you wave around with your hands and focus on it, and compare it to a high speed moving bullet. Kinda laughable.I've fired tracer rounds, but when I did I wasn't trying to create or look after the effect. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not!
You keep bringing up what one is supposed to do or is doing in most cases when firing a weapon, but guess what, that doesn't matter to the discussion, common practice will not stop this effect from happening under the right circumstances.
The only thing that you've shown is that you will ignore things that doesn't fit in your skewed view on reality, and because you have more experience firing weapons you must be right. But again, this effect isn't about weapons but about light hitting your eye.

Whether or not it's coming from a "high speed moving bullet" or a sparkler doesn't matter as it's the speed over your field of vision that creates the effect.
This discussion is obviously over your head as you've on numerous occasions proven that you do not understand even this simple concept.

[yellonet]

Rats. Just as I was developing my umpiring skills.:(

Haha :)

S!

[winny]

And another arm chair experienced weapons specialist.

Great!

Neither does staring at a tracer round while firing a weapon. The game has the tracers modeled to what you do in real life when firing a weapon. And that would be focus on the target you are shooting at. If you focus on a sparkler (which your eyes can actually do) you can cause all the retina burn you want. That image might stick around in your head for over a minute. But the thing you don't seem to realize is that a tracer will be gone from your POV in an instant. That's why the Helo video keeps getting brought up. It's going over 100mph in some spots while the gunner is firing almost perpendicular to in some instances to the direction of travel, yet the "curved" effect is hardly noticeable on a video. Well let me tell you something, an airplane just so happens to be traveling 99% of the time in the SAME direction that the guns are pointing. Guess what? That bend or arc that's hardly noticeable in a good video camera is much less pronounced when seeing this with your own naked eye. If you had experience on the subject at hand, just like winny, you wouldn't be trying to bring up a candle or a sparkler that you wave around with your hands and focus on it, and compare it to a high speed moving bullet. Kinda laughable.

Look, you've called me a retard simply because I said tracer can bend, yet you say the same thing. Now we appear to be discussing how much they bend and if you can tell or not.

The problem is that CoDs tracers can't bend because they are rectangular polygons.

A serious question, from your experience how long does a tracer round burn for? Can you see it until it goes out, or does it get to the point where you can't see it because it's too far away?

You say that tracer leaves your point of view 'in an instant'... Not if you're firing whilst flying in the same direction as the bullets.

And, there is no 'focus' in CoD... It's a window on the world, not an eye or a camera, There is no lens in CoD, no motion blur, no point of focus.

Everything is in focus at all times. They are drawing in tracer regardless of where you happen to be looking, at all times.

Unless your wings have come off you are going in the same direction as your guns 100% of the time.

But you're not going in the same direction as your bullets because once they've left the gun they are going where they were fired.

The very action of firing the guns has an effect on the aircrafts movement up, down, left, right. And how many times have you fired your guns whilst flying perfectly straight and level?

A tracers streak must adhere to 2 rules.

Because it's a continuous path..

1. The tip must always point to where it is going
2. The tail end of the streak must always point to where it last was.

CoD breaks the second rule.

[robtek]

And, as already posted, the effect would be too minuscule to be seen!!!
The maximal lateral movement of the viewer is sooooo much less then speed of the light source that the radius of the curve of the tracer would be too large to see a bend in the visible tracersegment.
Maybe you can solve it mathematically, winny? Then there would be no room for interpretations.

[yellonet]

And, as already posted, the effect would be too minuscule to be seen!!!
The maximal lateral movement of the viewer is sooooo much less then speed of the light source that the radius of the curve of the tracer would be too large to see a bend in the visible tracersegment.
Maybe you can solve it mathematically, winny? Then there would be no room for interpretations.Remember that it's not the speed of the bullet that creates the effect but the speed of the light source across the plane of vision, and that speed is superfast when you start off behind the bullet and then veer off from its path.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Look, you've called me a retard simply because I said tracer can bend, yet you say the same thing. Now we appear to be discussing how much they bend and if you can tell or not.

Yep, it's because you think they should bend all the time. That's why you think the game is wrong. Which to your actual eyeball they only do so under the circumstances I've said 20x now.

The problem is that CoDs tracers can't bend because they are rectangular polygons.

You've already been shown told about COD vids that show this. I suggest actually looking at them.

A serious question, from your experience how long does a tracer round burn for? Can you see it until it goes out, or does it get to the point where you can't see it because it's too far away?

Depends on the round, but I'm sure you could google it like your other answers.

You say that tracer leaves your point of view 'in an instant'... Not if you're firing whilst flying in the same direction as the bullets.

You've just gone from retard to complete moron. If the stationary object (being the weapon) is traveling at 300mph to begin with, the round will be traveling faster than what it would if the weapon was stationary when 1st fired.

Let me guess, are you one of those people that think you can jump at the last second to save yourself from a falling elevator? I guess that jump (or the gun going off in a plane) somehow stops all laws of physics and you start going the complete opposite speed of your fall or the plane magically hops to 0mph when the trigger is pressed so the bullet goes out at it's natural/stationary velocity? LOL OMFG. You've got to be one of the dumbest I've ever seen.

And, there is no 'focus' in CoD... It's a window on the world, not an eye or a camera, There is no lens in CoD, no motion blur, no point of focus.

Seems again, you can't seem to read. I've already said that this is a hardware limitation both here and at SimHq.

Everything is in focus at all times. They are drawing in tracer regardless of where you happen to be looking, at all times.

Same as above, hardware limitations. But the good thing is the round is modeled/drawn exactly as if you were actually firing a weapon, by focusing on the target, and the effects on these rounds in 2d look how they would firing in real life.

Unless your wings have come off you are going in the same direction as your guns 100% of the time.

Words can't describe your stupidity. If a gun was mounted on a car facing straight forward, all I would have to do is adjust toe in equal amounts one direction or another and the car would be "dog tracking". In other words it's "a skew" to it's actual symmetric position. The car would still be going forward while the gun is not pointing in the same direction as the car.

In an airplane all it would take is a slight wind or a touch of the rudder to have the plane skewed to it's straight forward position. Do I really need to show you a video of a plane "dog tracking" in the wind?

Wow.

But you're not going in the same direction as your bullets because once they've left the gun they are going where they were fired.

The very action of firing the guns has an effect on the aircrafts movement up, down, left, right. And how many times have you fired your guns whilst flying perfectly straight and level?

Even stationary you'll be hard press to ever repeat where you are firing with an automatic weapon. Again, you're a bright one.

A tracers streak must adhere to 2 rules.

Because it's a continuous path..

1. The tip must always point to where it is going
2. The tail end of the streak must always point to where it last was.

CoD breaks the second rule.

That's what I see in game. Or should I say, what I see in game is very natural to what I see with my own eyes while firing a weapon. Again, I'm glad the devs don't listen to utter buffoons, and instead, have them modeled as close to reality within the 2d scope we are working with.

[yellonet]

Yep, it's because you think they should bend all the time. That's why you think the game is wrong. Which to your actual eyeball they only do so under the circumstances I've said 20x now.Now I understand, you're the kind of person that start believing something when you've heard it enough times. Guess what, repeating something that is wrong over and over doesn't make it right.

You've already been shown told about COD vids that show this. I suggest actually looking at them.The "stream" of tracers is bending but the tracer streak is not, that's what's wrong. In your opinion this doesn't matter, and no one is denying you your opinion, but the graphical representation is still wrong.

If the stream bends the streaks should also. How can someone possibly refute this?

Let me guess, are you one of those people that think you can jump at the last second to save yourself from a falling elevator? I guess that jump (or the gun going off in a plane) somehow stops all laws of physics and you start going the complete opposite speed of your fall or the plane magically hops to 0mph when the trigger is pressed so the bullet goes out at it's natural/stationary velocity? LOL OMFG. You've got to be one of the dumbest I've ever seen.About the elevator, theoretically you could, if you knew when to jump and if you could jump powerful/fast enough.

Seems again, you can't seem to read. I've already said that this is a hardware limitation both here and at SimHq.No it isn't. Selective focusing and DoF and more are present in a number of games (to create a movie-esque feel), it's just that it's not needed or wanted in a sim as you're still using your eyes which will create these effects for you whether you like to or not.

Words can't describe your stupidity.

Again, you're a bright one.

utter buffoonsWow, you're starting to look really bad with all those personal attacks...

[winny]

That's what I see in game. Or should I say, what I see in game is very natural to what I see with my own eyes while firing a weapon. Again, I'm glad the devs don't listen to utter buffoons, and instead, have them modeled as close to reality within the 2d scope we are working with.


Ignorance is, literally, Bliss.

My argument in a nutshell has always been.

That tracers appear to curve away from a gun if the gun is moving sideways, or up and Down.

That CoD can't make tracer streak curve because in CoD they are always a straight bar between two points.

That tracer streak must always point to where it's going but also be in line with where it's come from.

If you captured 15 screenshots of one tracer streaks path across the screen when there is also sideways movement and drew a line between the tip of the tracer for each frame you would find that although they always point where they are going they dont always point at where they've been.

I don't care about how percieveable this is. I'm just pointing out the difference between CoD and RL.


If I get you correctly you've been telling me I'm wrong and agreeing with me, on the same point, in the same post, and you're calling me a bufoon...

What part of my argument do you disagree with, so we can be clear?

[Mysticpuma]

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Is it over yet :(

[ElAurens]

So what you are saying is that the bullet will defy gravity and rise when being fired, instead of starting to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel.
Sorry but that is a myth created by people that doesn't understand how it really works, but please explain.

And you are also denying that if you as an example drive a car at 20 m/s and you fire a shot from that car at 90º to the right, after 1 second that shot will have gone the right (relative the direction of the shot) (about) 20 meters.
Please explain why this doesn't happen.

I suggest doing research on external ballistics for a start. Then perhaps spend five+ years as a competition shooter, 30+ years as an avid collector and shooter, then get back to me.

As to your automotive example, the projectile will not have curved to the right. It will have flown straight from the time it left the barrel. What will have happened is that your position in the car will have moved forward the 20 meters. Or are you trying to say that if you fire the weapon while travelling at that speed then miraculously stop dead, that the bullet will curve to the right?

LOL!!!

[yellonet]

I suggest doing research on external ballistics for a start. Then perhaps spend five+ years as a competition shooter, 30+ years as an avid collector and shooter, then get back to me.With all that experience I'm sure you can explain the physics that introduce the upwards force on the bullet making it go against gravity.

As to your automotive example, the projectile will not have curved to the right. It will have flown straight from the time it left the barrel. What will have happened is that your position in the car will have moved forward the 20 meters. Or are you trying to say that if you fire the weapon while travelling at that speed then miraculously stop dead, that the bullet will curve to the right?

LOL!!!
The bullet will not curve but will travel diagonally.
How do you explain the force on the bullet given by the moving car just disappearing when the bullet is fired?

[Ze-Jamz]

I suggest doing research on external ballistics for a start. Then perhaps spend five+ years as a competition shooter, 30+ years as an avid collector and shooter, then get back to me.

As to your automotive example, the projectile will not have curved to the right. It will have flown straight from the time it left the barrel. What will have happened is that your position in the car will have moved forward the 20 meters. Or are you trying to say that if you fire the weapon while travelling at that speed then miraculously stop dead, that the bullet will curve to the right?

LOL!!!

Lol like that film where angelina jolie bends the bullet around the meat hanging up...Was that not real then? :rolleyes:

[TheEditor]

Wish i could see a damn screenshot or vid of mod...for the third time.

[Sternjaeger II]

http://files.sharenator.com/facedesk_RE_How_to_deal_with_an_obnoxious_moviegoe r-s590x422-123277.jpg

[ATAG_Bliss]

Now I understand, you're the kind of person that start believing something when you've heard it enough times. Guess what, repeating something that is wrong over and over doesn't make it right.

No I'm the type of person that starts believing something when I've,.. wait for it. SEEN something 1000's of times. Such as the point of this discussion. - what tracers look like.

The "stream" of tracers is bending but the tracer streak is not, that's what's wrong. In your opinion this doesn't matter, and no one is denying you your opinion, but the graphical representation is still wrong.

If the stream bends the streaks should also. How can someone possibly refute this?

And again, just like your misinformed counter part you couldn't be more wrong. If I jump in front of a train that is moving 60mph, the train will actually slow down, but will you ever see it? No of course not, because the amount of speed is so negligible that it's hardly worth talking about.

When you are firing a weapon that has rounds traveling 20x as fast as the vehicle car scenario you are talking about the shift of trajectory is so negligible that your eye will never see it, let alone see this bend in a very short section of emitted light source.

About the elevator, theoretically you could, if you knew when to jump and if you could jump powerful/fast enough.

Even mythbusters made a special just about this instance. I suggest you watch it, you might actually learn something about physics. The amount of force required to overcome the sheer speed of a free fall elevator would leave every single bone and organ in your body a complete mush if any human being was somehow capable of even attempting such a feat. Last time I checked, no super human has been able to completely flatten their entire body by "jumping".

You're also a real bright one.

No it isn't. Selective focusing and DoF and more are present in a number of games (to create a movie-esque feel), it's just that it's not needed or wanted in a sim as you're still using your eyes which will create these effects for you whether you like to or not.

Good thing I don't want a movie-esque feel when playing a flight sim. I'll stick to the effects my natural eye balls see.

Wow, you're starting to look really bad with all those personal attacks...

I call it like I see it. You have both proven to be utter idiots. I'm not here for a popularity contest, and I would rather not have a flight sim I play turned into a movie-esque feel or have it full of camera effects just because some people actually believe what they see in a movie as real life.

[Heliocon]

Ok I am not reading all this crap but first off no matter who says it - anyone claiming to have RL experience take with a grain of salt, it is the internet. That being said what winny is saying is up to page 9 (stopped there) is correct to an extent. As for the 2d the problem there is that you have 2 eyes that the brain uses to create a 3d image, even though each eye can only see in "2d" individually.
The effect of the trail being left in your eye WOULD occur if you stared at it/focued on it, it would "burn" an image into your retina (desensitizes or overloads certain receptors, cant remember the actual biology of it) just like staring at a lightbulb and then closing your eyes. But you would have to be focusing on the round for it to remain in your vision in that way.

Also wouldnt higher calibre rounds have a larger base and more area emitting light? I dont know (thats why I am asking lol).

[Wolf_Rider]

looks like the MKI eyeball fps thing won't be explained... must be something selective being applied there - oh well

oh, oh.. that's right - sparklers aren't rounds tracers, they're sparklers




I'll have a look..
But I have already taken frames from the same video and drawn straight lines through the tracer and the vast majority are, when the camera is moving, very slightly curved, try it. Some are very curved btw.




yesss, you've said it yourself - "when the camera is moving" you're seeing the same camera quirk that has tracers zig-zagging in guncam footage

[yellonet]

looks like the MKI eyeball fps thing won't be explained... must be something selective being applied there - oh wellI didn't think it needed explanation as it is quite obvious, except for you, that I did not say that the the eye has no shutter, camera functions were just used as an analogy.
If I had meant that the eye had a shutter I would have said "the eye has a shutter".
But talk all you want the eye still has the limitations as I've said before.

oh, oh.. that's right - sparklers aren't rounds tracers, they're sparklersSo, what's your point here? Are you saying that there's a difference between different light sources when it comes the the discussed effect?

[yellonet]

When you are firing a weapon that has rounds traveling 20x as fast as the vehicle car scenario you are talking about the shift of trajectory is so negligible that your eye will never see it, let alone see this bend in a very short section of emitted light source.In your experience yes, but you're either stationary or in a relatively slow moving vehicle. How can you with that experience deny what can happen in a completely different scenario?

Even mythbusters made a special just about this instance. I suggest you watch it, you might actually learn something about physics. The amount of force required to overcome the sheer speed of a free fall elevator would leave every single bone and organ in your body a complete mush if any human being was somehow capable of even attempting such a feat. Last time I checked, no super human has been able to completely flatten their entire body by "jumping".

You're also a real bright one.I know that it is not practically doable, that's why I said that it was theoretically possible, if you could jump fast enough, obviously your body would be built to withstand those forces.

And Mythbusters, really? I see where you get your extensive knowledge of physics.

Good thing I don't want a movie-esque feel when playing a flight sim. I'll stick to the effects my natural eye balls see.No, you want the effect that you see when firing from a stationary position to be valid in all situations, even those that you have no experience of and obviously do not understand.

I call it like I see it. You have both proven to be utter idiots. I'm not here for a popularity contest, and I would rather not have a flight sim I play turned into a movie-esque feel or have it full of camera effects just because some people actually believe what they see in a movie as real life.But it's not a camera effect. Light can and will draw bent lines in your eye. What's so hard to grasp about that. You are obviously incapable of even imagining seeing the discussed effect in any situation, just because you haven't seen it in your irrelevant experience.

[Wolf_Rider]

I didn't think it needed explanation as it is quite obvious, except for you, that I did not say that the the eye has no shutter, camera functions were just used as an analogy.
If I had meant that the eye had a shutter I would have said "the eye has a shutter".
But talk all you want the eye still has the limitations as I've said before.





Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...


And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.




Hmmmm....






So, what's your point here? Are you saying that there's a difference between different light sources when it comes the the discussed effect?



the velocity difference and length of burn time between a rounds tracer and a sparkler.



People need to keep in mind that a movie camera takes a "snapshot" every 1/25 of a second or so (depending on camera), so, if that camera is "shaking" (even minimally) it takes the "snapshot" at different aspects of the subject, hence the "zig-zagging" of guncam footage... both WWII and the more modern helicopter mounted GAU in the popular (in this thread) YouTube.

[Chips86]

From an outside perspective, can anybody answer me this one question:

Why do people insist on arguing on the internet? Its like the special olympics...no matter who wins, your all still retarded.

[Heliocon]

From an outside perspective, can anybody answer me this one question:

Why do people insist on arguing on the internet? Its like the special olympics...no matter who wins, your all still retarded.

I disagree, lets argue this out!

[Das Attorney]

There is no way that the human retina could absorb enough light from a passing incandescent object (like a tracer) to perceive any kind of impression that it is bending relative to the vector of the eye (and said owner of the eye).

Maybe if you fired a tracer round past a fly (for example), it could pull in enough light to detect a change in direction relative of the tracer round to the fly's own position if it were to move away quickly. But then, because it takes in more visual information per unit of time, it would see a vastly improved impression of the tracer, with a correspondingly short trail (less flare effect). Therefore; even a creature (and it would have to be a creature - not a human pilot) with vastly improved eyesight could not see tracers as bending.

Light (and interpretation of light) just doesn't work that way.

As for sources: I can't give you any right now. But if it will settle this physics lunacy, I will be/will not be (un)happy to cobble together a (certainly) boring and (utterly) (un)necessary post. I will do it in my own time, because it is so mind numbingly dull. I will look forward to people disputing it as soon as I (don't) post it.

[kalimba]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh, this never ending argument about something that just cant be solved by any means, other than having better ingame coded tracers..:rolleyes:
Everyone agrees that what we see in real pictures, on real video or even on WW2 guncam is not reliable for all the technical blabla explanations that have been discussed in this thread....So how are we supposed to get a realistic graphic representation of what a real pilot would see in a real plane firing real tracers ?
It cant be done !
So we have two choices : ask a real WW2 fighter pilot to describe in detail what he saw 70 years ago when he fired his guns, or wait for some mods or Luthier to come up with a proposition that would satisfy most of us in terms of "what we feel is close to what we think that maybe would be realisticly accurate in RL":cool:
Until then, keep on arguing if you wish, but you are all wasting your energy unless you put your brains at finding a way to show us how a damn tracer SHOULD look ! :grin:

Salute !

[Heliocon]

There is no way that the human retina could absorb enough light from a passing incandescent object (like a tracer) to perceive any kind of impression that it is bending relative to the vector of the eye (and said owner of the eye).

Maybe if you fired a tracer round past a fly (for example), it could pull in enough light to detect a change in direction relative of the tracer round to the fly's own position if it were to move away quickly. But then, because it takes in more visual information per unit of time, it would see a vastly improved impression of the tracer, with a correspondingly short trail (less flare effect). Therefore; even a creature (and it would have to be a creature - not a human pilot) with vastly improved eyesight could not see tracers as bending.

Light (and interpretation of light) just doesn't work that way.

As for sources: I can't give you any right now. But if it will settle this physics lunacy, I will be/will not be (un)happy to cobble together a (certainly) boring and (utterly) (un)necessary post. I will do it in my own time, because it is so mind numbingly dull. I will look forward to people disputing it as soon as I (don't) post it.

Thats not what he is saying (or I am, or even that I fully agree with him). Also it has nothing to do with the "amount" of light (which would be taken as diffuse lighting/light), but its intensity (density/focus/dispersion etc).

[Skoshi Tiger]

Good Grief blokes. Give it a rest please.


It's right there alongside the 'How bent should bananas be?' Bill, written and conceived by some bloke who spent his entire life looking at the wrong end of bananas.

Have a very nice evening.

Cheers.


Oh Dutch! you shouldn't have!

http://straightbanana.org/banana1.jpg

[Upthair]

I don't care what experts say. The tracers should have a squiggle like on Tv. Why? Because you are pressing a button that vibrates the crap out of your body , the aircraft is vibrating , the perspex would be vibrating.

It just makes sense.
No, it does not.

Why do you assume that the pilot's head has to shake exactly the same way as the gun camera? :rolleyes:

The vibration starts with the firing guns, which are attached to the wings, which are attached to the fuselage. The wing roots shake less than the middle of the wings, where the guns and camera are; and the fuselage shakes much less than the wings; and the pilot's head has to shake less than the seat he sits on.





...

[KG26_Alpha]

Camera v eyball

Here's a small test for the human eyes capability.

If you are not old enough to drive or don't own a car, ask your parents or friend to let you try this.

Find a not so smooth road.

Look forwards when moving then use the screen mounted rear view mirror to look behind you.

The mirror vibrates the image slightly but when you look forwards there's no vibrated image, this is how a WW2 camera behaves when filming guncam it cannot replicate the human eyeballs capability to stabilize the image.

You can keep one eye on the mirror and one eye forwards for the effect.

Now add tracer rounds to this and you will realize the eye ball sees smooth lines and the mirror camera would show wiggles due to vibration.



.

[Sternjaeger II]

Camera v eyball

Here's a small test for the human eyes capability.

If you are not old enough to drive or don't own a car, ask your parents or friend to let you try this.

Find a not so smooth road.

Look forwards when moving then use the screen mounted rear view mirror to look behind you.

The mirror vibrates the image slightly but when you look forwards there's no vibrated image, this is how a WW2 camera behaves when filming guncam it cannot replicate the human eyeballs capability to stabilize the image.

You can keep one eye on the mirror and one eye forwards for the effect.

Now add tracer rounds to this and you will realize the eye ball sees smooth lines and the mirror camera would show wiggles due to vibration.



.

That's a perfect example, well said man! I suppose it won't change some people's mind, but what we have with the sim now is a phisically accurate representation of what it looks like to the human eye, if you want a guncamera effect I have nothing against it, help yourself to learn the modding possibilities and good luck!

[Ze-Jamz]

Has this actually took 15 pages to prove this point?

[robtek]

Great the resistance to learn is, in some people

[JimmyBlonde]

That depends on the severity and frequency of the vibration. The human eye processes visual stimulation at a far higher rate than an 1940's camera but it is not immune to disruption through vibration either, only less prone to the level of vibration experienced during a car ride over a rough road.

There certainly should be some kind of blur effect added at least.

[SQB]

Has this actually took 15 pages to prove this point?

Yes, yes it has. :grin:

[Wolf_Rider]

Frightening, isn't it...

[kalimba]

Oh Dutch! you shouldn't have!

http://straightbanana.org/banana1.jpg

My God ! This is the first best exemple of how a tracer should look like !

Its shorter, a bit yellow, pointy at both ends and slightly bent....Just add a faint smoke trail and a rotating movement , so it looks like its wiggling and this will be it ! All those " I dont care what the experts say" and those "well, I am an expert cause I saw tracers in RL" will be absolutely mesmerized by this simple and efficient tracer mod...
Thanks !

Salute !

[Wolf_Rider]

and they'd go splat really well

[Upthair]

No, it does not.

Why do you assume that the pilot's head has to shake exactly the same way as the gun camera? :rolleyes:

The vibration starts with the firing guns, which are attached to the wings, which are attached to the fuselage. The wing roots shake less than the middle of the wings, where the guns and camera are; and the fuselage shakes much less than the wings; and the pilot's head has to shake less than the seat he sits on.

...
Just found a picture roughly to illustrate that the vibration varies at different parts of the fighter:

http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/3960/350wm/A4000160-Ruler_vibrating-SPL.jpg

The wing is in a sense like the long ruler, and the table the fuselage, since the mass of the fuselage is much, much larger than that of the wing. (There is a bit of physics omitted here.) Please pay attention to the magnitude of vibrations at different parts of the ruler. In fact the woman's right hand and the table also vibrate - negligibly to the human eye.

And the human body is soft to a certain extent; in particular, the soft tissues between consecutive bones of the spine are just for absorbing vibrations coming from the bottom or legs to the head or brain. That's why the head shakes even less than the seat if the seat (fastened into the fuselage) ever shakes slightly.

~~

[kalimba]

Just found a picture roughly to illustrate that the vibration varies at different parts of the fighter:

http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/3960/350wm/A4000160-Ruler_vibrating-SPL.jpg

The wing is in a sense like the long ruler, and the table the fuselage, since the mass of the fuselage is much, much larger than that of the wing. (There is a bit of physics omitted here.) Please pay attention to the magnitude of vibrations at different parts of the ruler. In fact the woman's right hand and the table also vibrate - negligibly to the human eye.

And the human body is soft to a certain extent; in particular, the soft tissues between consecutive bones of the spine are just for absorbing vibrations coming from the bottom or legs to the head or brain. That's why the head shakes even less than the seat if the seat (fastened into the fuselage) ever shakes slightly.

~~

Have you guys made a quick search " tracers" on this forum ?
Actually, I should say: guys, obviously, you didnt make a search....

This subject has been debated for months and the conclusions are those:
Actual tracers in COD are not good enough yet and real pilots didnt see any wiggling when firing their guns...
You have 3 choices now : Trust a senior member that has been debating this subject more then too much, or, make a damn search for yourselves, or ,continue debating forever because you wont be able to prove any of what you say....Whatever you say.

I only watch this thread in the hope that someone educated will come up with something tangible...Until now, the Banana tracer is the best we have....:grin:

Salute !

[Mr Logic]

I have it on good authority that bananas grow on trees and bear no relation whatsoever to bullets from a gun.

[Sternjaeger II]

Just found a picture roughly to illustrate that the vibration varies at different parts of the fighter:

http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/3960/350wm/A4000160-Ruler_vibrating-SPL.jpg

The wing is in a sense like the long ruler, and the table the fuselage, since the mass of the fuselage is much, much larger than that of the wing. (There is a bit of physics omitted here.) Please pay attention to the magnitude of vibrations at different parts of the ruler. In fact the woman's right hand and the table also vibrate - negligibly to the human eye.

And the human body is soft to a certain extent; in particular, the soft tissues between consecutive bones of the spine are just for absorbing vibrations coming from the bottom or legs to the head or brain. That's why the head shakes even less than the seat if the seat (fastened into the fuselage) ever shakes slightly.

~~

The vibration you're talking about is absolutely out of scale and wrong.

When you shoot with a machine gun it doesn't rumble or vibrate, it just had one major force vector (which we can call "recoil") that pushes in the opposite direction of the bullet direction. So, Imagining the CoG of the plane as your pivot, the plane would rotate backward on its yaw axis because of recoil, only to be compensated by the other machineguns on the opposite wing and the plane movement vector. As a consequence you can get a flicker on the yaw axis, which varies in its amplitude and frequency according to the guns you're shooting with. The recoils though won't be enough in terms of vector strength or frequency to cause vision blur or flickering like you see in guncameras, but I can tell you that there are other vibrations that can.

I was in a Cessna Caravan which had a prop governor failure, with one of the props going straight into feathering: the vibration and frequency were so intense that the whole world went blurry and your could hear your skull bones rattle! Not a nice experience! It was a second, just the time to switch the engine off, but man the engine could have easily come off its mount!!

[kalimba]

I have it on good authority that bananas grow on trees and bear no relation whatsoever to bullets from a gun.

Yeah man...Can you prove it ? ;-)

Salute !

[kalimba]

The vibration you're talking about is absolutely out of scale and wrong.

When you shoot with a machine gun it doesn't rumble or vibrate, it just had one major force vector (which we can call "recoil") that pushes in the opposite direction of the bullet direction. So, Imagining the CoG of the plane as your pivot, the plane would rotate backward on its yaw axis because of recoil, only to be compensated by the other machineguns on the opposite wing and the plane movement vector. As a consequence you can get a flicker on the yaw axis, which varies in its amplitude and frequency according to the guns you're shooting with. The recoils though won't be enough in terms of vector strength or frequency to cause vision blur or flickering like you see in guncameras, but I can tell you that there are other vibrations that can.

I was in a Cessna Caravan which had a prop governor failure, with one of the props going straight into feathering: the vibration and frequency were so intense that the whole world went blurry and your could hear your skull bones rattle! Not a nice experience! It was a second, just the time to switch the engine off, but man the engine could have easily come off its mount!!

Interesting...Really...Can you prove with referenced scientific documentation what you are describing in your thread ?
:grin:


Salute ?

[Sternjaeger II]

Interesting...Really...Can you prove with referenced scientific documentation what you are describing in your thread ?
:grin:


Salute ?

I believe there is no scientific documentation at hand (or maybe there is, but I don't know of it), truth is that if you studied some physics at school you might understand why what I am saying makes sense and what you are saying doesn't. I swear that if I had some time though I would write it down neatly with all the vectors and formulas (which you might not understand anyway.. have u ever studied any dynamics at school?), this just for the sake of science of course. We're here to share knowledge and experience, not to waste anybody's time.

[kalimba]

I believe there is no scientific documentation at hand (or maybe there is, but I don't know of it), truth is that if you studied some physics at school you might understand why what I am saying makes sense and what you are saying doesn't. I swear that if I had some time though I would write it down neatly with all the vectors and formulas (which you might not understand anyway.. have u ever studied any dynamics at school?), this just for the sake of science of course. We're here to share knowledge and experience, not to waste anybody's time.

Well, everybody knows that tracers do not wiggle.
By your own words, those who think so are non-educated people.
If you consider that proving with facts your " knowledge and experience" is wasting people's time, you should call your thread " my personnal opinions".

Oh, by the way, my first reply was , of course, a joke, since most of our dicussions are sterile and useless since we CANT prove anything we say by any simple means...And I still cant find what is that I wrote that doent make sense...:grin:

Salute !

[Sternjaeger II]

Well, everybody knows that tracers do not wiggle.
By your own words, those who think so are non-educated people.
If you consider that proving with facts your " knowledge and experience" is wasting people's time, you should call your thread " my personnal opinions".
I believe you misinterpreted my post. I KNOW for a fact that my point is right, I don't need to demonstrate it to myself, and so the guys at Maddox games know, cos they're skilled people. If it was the opposite, then I would do my best to prove my point. If people don't believe me or them it's not my problem, I wish I had more time to explain them things in detail, unfortunately I don't, so it's either "you better believe me man, cos I know what I am talking about" or "oh well, tough luck..".


Oh, by the way, my first reply was , of course, a joke, since most of our dicussions are sterile and useless since we CANT prove anything we say by any simple means...And I still cant find what is that I wrote that doent make sense...:grin:

Salute !

It's ever so hard to tell jokes from the truth in these forums, maybe we should use tags. I don't know whether your discussions might be sterile and useless, but I know that I like to think of my technical contribution as knowledgeable, fact-based and generally correct.

Your example doesn't make sense because the elastic oscillation of a ruler, which goes UP and DOWN, as nothing to do with the yaw oscillation, which a) is not structural b) is not that intense.

Hope this helps understanding things better.

[kalimba]

I believe you misinterpreted my post. I KNOW for a fact that my point is right, I don't need to demonstrate it to myself, and so the guys at Maddox games know, cos they're skilled people. If it was the opposite, then I would do my best to prove my point. If people don't believe me or them it's not my problem, I wish I had more time to explain them things in detail, unfortunately I don't, so it's either "you better believe me man, cos I know what I am talking about" or "oh well, tough luck..".



It's ever so hard to tell jokes from the truth in these forums, maybe we should use tags. I don't know whether your discussions might be sterile and useless, but

Your example doesn't make sense because the elastic oscillation of a ruler, which goes UP and DOWN, as nothing to do with the yaw oscillation, which a) is not structural b) is not that intense.

Hope this helps understanding things better.


Haha...Good one...So if YOU and Maddox KNOW you are right , and you still dont care what other people think, why bother writing these posts ?

ANd why start any discussion when you go : I know that I like to think of my technical contribution as knowledgeable, fact-based and generally correct. Is there any room for discussion or you are only generously sharing your
omnipotent knowledge ?

And by the way, since our discussion began with my smarta$$ joking reply,
I just want to tell you that you were soooooooo preoccupied by your flawless humble reputation that you missed something here...I am not the one you were trying to educate about laws of physics and "elastic oscillation"...Wrong guy, wrong response mate...:grin:

Salute !

[Horizon02]

I've yet to see anyone take into account two things, though I could have missed a post in all the drama:

1. The wing and aircraft vibrates. That doesn't cause the tracer to wiggle or vibrate, but it DOES cause the CAMERA to do so. Any effect such as this seen in video of any era is probably due to the camera vibrating. Not the tracers.

2. Cameras in the early 40s and through the late 50s did not shoot the same frame-rate or with the same consistency that cameras now do. Very many an effect of number of tracers scene, their fade ins or outs, and speed have a great much to do with the framerate, consistency/reliability of the primitive cameras used aboard the aircraft in trying and high-mechanical stress situations.

I see a lot of folks whining about tracers not looking like they do in movies or guncam clips.

Well...it's not a photo-realistic game yet. It's close, but it's not there.

However, it isn't going to look exactly like a movie, because even a movie camera can be made to have that jiggling effect to look familiar to folks, and if you really wanted lighting that looked realistic, don't go by cameras. They have filters and lenses that cause lighting that your eye perceives differently. Glows and fade outs in movies could be more noticeable without being larger or brighter, to the naked eye as opposed to film.

So the question stands is, What do you expect from a video game based on a computer-graphics engine as opposed to real-life? Do you think perhaps the fact that the video game doesn't make your entire field of vision vibrate like a jostling camera at low framerate is a bad thing? Perhaps the fact that no matter the game is 3-d rendered, it's still coming at you from a 2-d screen, and thus glow effects and other real-life eye effects simply cannot ever be rendered in a truly compelling fashion unless shot by a real camera and somehow spliced in?

Things to think about while you pretend to have been an actual combate pilot in WWII and thus know exactly what tracers looked like with your naked eye in the pit during a real fight. You guys have a pretty stellar game. Don't get too caught up in itty-bitty details of reality you'll never achieve with computer graphics for another few years...

...Look at games like Crysis, for example. Even their fire effects and sparks and the like are not truly realistic looking.

With all the high technology around here, you kids have forgotten how to have 'Suspension of Disbelief" and use your imagination while playing the game. You'd have never lasted playing "Aces over Europe." Haha!

[Sternjaeger II]

Haha...Good one...So if YOU and Maddox KNOW you are right , and you still dont care what other people think, why bother writing these posts ?

ANd why start any discussion when you go : I know that I like to think of my technical contribution as knowledgeable, fact-based and generally correct. Is there any room for discussion or you are only generously sharing your
omnipotent knowledge ?

And by the way, since our discussion began with my smarta$$ joking reply,
I just want to tell you that you were soooooooo preoccupied by your flawless humble reputation that you missed something here...I am not the one you were trying to educate about laws of physics and "elastic oscillation"...Wrong guy, wrong response mate...:grin:

Salute !

erm.. well there still might be people out there that want to know how things work without trolling... I really don't get what you're trying to say here :confused:

[kalimba]

erm.. well there still might be people out there that want to know how things work without trolling... I really don't get what you're trying to say here :confused:

Sorry mate...I am not trolling here ...I was just pulling your leg a bit in my first reply......But your response was kind of "harsh and pretentious" and that is when I understood you were thinking that I was the other guy with whom you had an ongoing discussion....
BUt you have to admit though that when a fellow writes in a discussion forum that he knows he's right and has knowledge that we may not understand even with some explanation and if someone disagrees with him that makes the other guy wrong, it can be perceived has being ..well...you know...:rolleyes:
Let's not make an issue out of this...I wont comment anymore on your posts...
But I am still hoping for great tracers in COD !

Salute !

[Dialn911]

I have to agree with the lack of tracer quality on the game. I have seen tracers fired in real world settings, I have shot them myself watching them go out. My first impression with these in the game was WTF? They look cheap, lazy, and ridiculous. They leave too fast, and appear to move in a perfectly straight line outward. No convergence what soever of ballistic drop. I tried aiming high at a bomber to ark and compensate for bullet drop....no need, they flew straight like lasers. I simply has to point and fire. Firing weapons my whole life including machine guns, I was puzzled and confused by the lack of balletic physics that appear in COD. Also, the tracers leave and at about 100 yards out and magically vanish into nothing. I hate to say it, but this is a sad excuse for tracers and seriously makes the game look as if they put something in for a temporary marker while testing and forgot to fix it.


I know a lot of you on here think they supposedly look "authentic", but having fired automatic weapons with tracers.....um, no...they look like crap and sound like crap.

Before I hear a bunch of fan boys trying to chastise me, I have been playing sims for over 20 years and am an avid support of maddox. I own the complete Il-2 series and have loved them, this is why I showed my support and bough a 50 dollar game with a POOR 2.0 average rating from all the user and professional critic reviews and websites. I figured they will work all this out, but some stuff is really bad. You have to call a spade a spade.

When I buy a new Il-2 game, and I find myself booting up 1946 to play when I have COD staring me on the shelf....yeah they really screwed the pooch. Hyper lobby if full of Il-2 hardcore gamers loading up 1946 despite the fact COD is out. That says a lot right there.

[JimmyBlonde]

With all the high technology around here, you kids have forgotten how to have 'Suspension of Disbelief" and use your imagination while playing the game. You'd have never lasted playing "Aces over Europe." Haha!

Haha, or the original Red Baron... :D

Flaming tennis balls with an effective range of around about 5 miles.

I think the trails look very cool from what I've seen on YT.

[kalimba]

I have to agree with the lack of tracer quality on the game. I have seen tracers fired in real world settings, I have shot them myself watching them go out. My first impression with these in the game was WTF? They look cheap, lazy, and ridiculous. They leave too fast, and appear to move in a perfectly straight line outward. No convergence what soever of ballistic drop. I tried aiming high at a bomber to ark and compensate for bullet drop....no need, they flew straight like lasers. I simply has to point and fire. Firing weapons my whole life including machine guns, I was puzzled and confused by the lack of balletic physics that appear in COD. Also, the tracers leave and at about 100 yards out and magically vanish into nothing. I hate to say it, but this is a sad excuse for tracers and seriously makes the game look as if they put something in for a temporary marker while testing and forgot to fix it.


I know a lot of you on here think they supposedly look "authentic", but having fired automatic weapons with tracers.....um, no...they look like crap and sound like crap.

Before I hear a bunch of fan boys trying to chastise me, I have been playing sims for over 20 years and am an avid support of maddox. I own the complete Il-2 series and have loved them, this is why I showed my support and bough a 50 dollar game with a POOR 2.0 average rating from all the user and professional critic reviews and websites. I figured they will work all this out, but some stuff is really bad. You have to call a spade a spade.

When I buy a new Il-2 game, and I find myself booting up 1946 to play when I have COD staring me on the shelf....yeah they really screwed the pooch. Hyper lobby if full of Il-2 hardcore gamers loading up 1946 despite the fact COD is out. That says a lot right there.

+1...And even those who never saw tracers in RL have the same feeling about COD's....That is awkward !
Thanks for your testimony...

SAlute !

[ATAG_Bliss]

I have to agree with the lack of tracer quality on the game. I have seen tracers fired in real world settings, I have shot them myself watching them go out. My first impression with these in the game was WTF? They look cheap, lazy, and ridiculous. They leave too fast, and appear to move in a perfectly straight line outward. No convergence what soever of ballistic drop. I tried aiming high at a bomber to ark and compensate for bullet drop....no need, they flew straight like lasers. I simply has to point and fire. Firing weapons my whole life including machine guns, I was puzzled and confused by the lack of balletic physics that appear in COD. Also, the tracers leave and at about 100 yards out and magically vanish into nothing. I hate to say it, but this is a sad excuse for tracers and seriously makes the game look as if they put something in for a temporary marker while testing and forgot to fix it.


I know a lot of you on here think they supposedly look "authentic", but having fired automatic weapons with tracers.....um, no...they look like crap and sound like crap.

Before I hear a bunch of fan boys trying to chastise me, I have been playing sims for over 20 years and am an avid support of maddox. I own the complete Il-2 series and have loved them, this is why I showed my support and bough a 50 dollar game with a POOR 2.0 average rating from all the user and professional critic reviews and websites. I figured they will work all this out, but some stuff is really bad. You have to call a spade a spade.

When I buy a new Il-2 game, and I find myself booting up 1946 to play when I have COD staring me on the shelf....yeah they really screwed the pooch. Hyper lobby if full of Il-2 hardcore gamers loading up 1946 despite the fact COD is out. That says a lot right there.

I'm going to go ahead and "laugh out loud"

Thanks for that.

[Upthair]

The vibration you're talking about is absolutely out of scale and wrong.

When you shoot with a machine gun it doesn't rumble or vibrate, it just had one major force vector (which we can call "recoil") that pushes in the opposite direction of the bullet direction. So, Imagining the CoG of the plane as your pivot, the plane would rotate backward on its yaw axis because of recoil, only to be compensated by the other machineguns on the opposite wing and the plane movement vector. As a consequence you can get a flicker on the yaw axis, which varies in its amplitude and frequency according to the guns you're shooting with. The recoils though won't be enough in terms of vector strength or frequency to cause vision blur or flickering like you see in guncameras, but I can tell you that there are other vibrations that can.
The 'shaking ruler' is only for those who are complete strangers to physics ;). If you talked with scientific rigour, your time would be totally wasted. So I chose that pic as a tentative analogy, and used words like 'roughly' and 'in a sense'.

I think what you said was mostly, but not completely, right, since you were talking about an ideal situation. The strictly backward recoil can of course generate vibrations in directions perpendicular to the recoil. Example: When you fire a pistol at a point on the horizon, your hand experiences upward movement too, which is perpendicular to the recoil.

I was in a Cessna Caravan which had a prop governor failure, with one of the props going straight into feathering: the vibration and frequency were so intense that the whole world went blurry and your could hear your skull bones rattle! Not a nice experience! It was a second, just the time to switch the engine off, but man the engine could have easily come off its mount!!
I guess a fighter pilot won't shoot when the whole world goes so blurry that he can't see clearly his target. But yes, as you said, there are other vibrations.

~

[Dialn911]

I'm going to go ahead and "laugh out loud"

Thanks for that.

As police officer and person who has trained on many automatic weapons, I am going to go ahead and laugh out loud.


Gotta love the ignorance on these forums.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Since when do police officers train with automatic weapons?

Do I really need to make an ingame video with icons on to show you A.) the game has ballistics that are quite good B.) You can see tracers much further than 100yards/300ft/91 METERS. I have my guns converged at 500m and I can watch the tracers cross each other and extend.

Then you are talking about making a deflection shot within 91meters where the bullets won't even come close to even being slow enough to have any substantial sort of bullet drop to deflect - and I'm assuming this with your astute observation that a tracer disappears within 91 meters or as you say 100 yards in this sim.

Then you go on to say that a tracer looks like a laser blast as if that's a bad thing. Star wars blasters were modeled off of what tracer ammo looks like.

I don't even think you've fired gun in your life, let alone seen a real life tracer.

The ignorance on this forum doesn't surprise me one bit. The sheer stupidity does.

[ATAG_Bliss]

And just to show you what a still camera shot looks like of tracer rounds:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3732/tracerfireatmcbcamppend.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/tracerfireatmcbcamppend.jpg/)

[Dialn911]

Since when do police officers train with automatic weapons?

Do I really need to make an ingame video with icons on to show you A.) the game has ballistics that are quite good B.) You can see tracers much further than 100yards/300ft/91 METERS. I have my guns converged at 500m and I can watch the tracers cross each other and extend.

Then you are talking about making a deflection shot within 91meters where the bullets won't even come close to even being slow enough to have any substantial sort of bullet drop to deflect - and I'm assuming this with your astute observation that a tracer disappears within 91 meters or as you say 100 yards in this sim.

Then you go on to say that a tracer looks like a laser blast as if that's a bad thing. Star wars blasters were modeled off of what tracer ammo looks like.

I don't even think you've fired gun in your life, let alone seen a real life tracer.

The ignorance on this forum doesn't surprise me one bit. The sheer stupidity does.
That pic is with a slow shutter speed. A plane flying with this shutter speed looks like a streak.

Also,

When do police officers train with automatic weapons?.... Seriously? PD uses automatics all the time. Not to mention, here in AZ, we can legally own them. My close friend has 3 autos we shoot all the time. fully auto M-4, fully auto mac-11, and a fully auto MG-42 made in 1943.

So you think I have never shot a weapon huh? You want to fact check me? I'm pretty easy to find. Here is my biography. My name on here is Dialn911 (Dial for my last name, N for my first). My Name is Nick Dial. A simple Google search brings me right up.

http://circlethewagons.net/files/2009/09/IMG_0024-Large-300x225.jpg[/URL]
"Nick Dial is co-founder of circle the wagons.net. Nick is a certified police officer in the state of Arizona, graduating from the police academy in 2006 with a 4.0 GPA. Nick is currently a student in Counter Terrorism and Homeland Security. He is a member of The National Society of Collegiate Scholars, the Golden Key International Honor Society, Alpha Betta Kappa Honor Society, Alpha Phi Sigma Criminal Justice Honor Society, and the Future Business Leaders of America-Phi Beta Lambda Chapter. Nick is also on the President’s Honors list at the University which he attends. In 2010, Nick was selected for publishing of his article, “Arizona Immigration Law 1070: An Arizona’s Officer’s Perspective, by the National Society of Collegiate Scholars."
http://circlethewagons.net/get-dialed-in-with-nick-dial/

Here I am shooting a fully automatic M4 in some of my police gear, see the big words on the back that say POLICE?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSMGXcgOUIg


Normally, I would not go to this trouble to disclose who I am or my credentials, however you have been very smug and rude to others as well as me. Sometime punks like you with a loud mouth need to be shut up and put in their place. You questioned my background? here you go. Unless you have something showing me your REAL WORLD experience, your nothing more then a weekend warrior hiding behind a keyboard thinking their the greatest thing since tetris.

Pretty sad.

[ATAG_Bliss]

So you posted all that to cover up the fact that you think tracers aren't visible past 91 meters, have no ballistics, and shouldn't go straight?

Do you think that's going to change the fallacies of what you've already said?

And most people that know me know exactly what I do. I don't need to post pictures from my last deployment to prove I know what I'm talking about.

Oh and I'd love to see you try and "put me in my place". No wonder you're a ******. Looks like you got put in your place way too many times as a kid.

THIS POST HAS BEEN REPORTED - NAME CALLING IS BAN OFFENSE

[banned]

So you posted all that to cover up the fact that you think tracers aren't visible past 91 meters, have no ballistics, and shouldn't go straight?

Do you think that's going to change the fallacies of what you've already said?

And most people that know me know exactly what I do. I don't need to post pictures from my last deployment to prove I know what I'm talking about.

Oh and I'd love to see you try and "put me in my place". No wonder you're a ********. Looks like you got put in your place way too many times as a kid.
I've reported this post. I'm a police officer as well and anyone who stoops to name calling like that needs to be banned.

[Dialn911]

I've reported this post. I'm a police officer as well and anyone who stoops to name calling like that needs to be banned.

thanks for the support. I thought about letting it go, but people like this tarnish forums such as this.

Stay safe out there banned.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I've reported this post. I'm a police officer as well and anyone who stoops to name calling like that needs to be banned.

Oh goodie!

Maybe they'll side with you after I was called this and threatened. But I highly doubt it considering not a single argument to support his statement was attempted after I pointed out how wrong 911 was.

Sometime punks like you with a loud mouth need to be shut up and put in their place.

But by all means, let me know when you get that video together than shows a tracer round is not visible after 91m!

I can't wait!

[palker4]

Anyone else finds this tracer disputes totally stupid and ridiculous? Whats the point? Tell me cause i really would like to know why you insit to convince the other guy that he is wrong and you are right. Reminds me of this.

http://cdn.thegloss.com/files/2010/10/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1.jpg

[Sternjaeger II]

Sorry mate...I am not trolling here ...I was just pulling your leg a bit in my first reply......But your response was kind of "harsh and pretentious" and that is when I understood you were thinking that I was the other guy with whom you had an ongoing discussion....
BUt you have to admit though that when a fellow writes in a discussion forum that he knows he's right and has knowledge that we may not understand even with some explanation and if someone disagrees with him that makes the other guy wrong, it can be perceived has being ..well...you know...:rolleyes:
Let's not make an issue out of this...I wont comment anymore on your posts...
But I am still hoping for great tracers in COD !

Salute !

It's probably my fault,but repeating everytime my experiences and background kinda wears you down,maybe I should put it in my profile.. Anyway,for what is worth,from my experience of firing with automatic weapons during the Army service,ranging from Nato MGs up to M2 HMG,and so knowing enough about ballistics and real life experience,I can tell you that the representation of the sim is by far the most accurate we have seen so far in the world of simulation.

[Sternjaeger II]

The 'shaking ruler' is only for those who are complete strangers to physics ;). If you talked with scientific rigour, your time would be totally wasted. So I chose that pic as a tentative analogy, and used words like 'roughly' and 'in a sense'.
The fashinating thing about physics is that it has no mercy: either you know it well or it will bite you in the aXX..

You don't need scientific rigour,but examples that need to pertinent to the topic discussed,a lot of stuff looks similar in phisics,but it's not quite the same.

I think what you said was mostly, but not completely, right, since you were talking about an ideal situation. The strictly backward recoil can of course generate vibrations in directions perpendicular to the recoil. Example: When you fire a pistol at a point on the horizon, your hand experiences upward movement too, which is perpendicular to the recoil.

and here's my point proven. The strictly backwards recoil generates force vectors,not "vibrations" that are conditioned by pivot points,and yr example is the perfect evidence:when shooting a pistol your wrist becomes the pivot point,hence the rotation upwards,which is amplified on semiautomatic pistols because of the slider movement. Interestingly enough,if you held the pistol "gangsta style",with the grip and barrel horizontally positioned,the recoil will push the pistol inwards towards yr aiming axis.. The crazy stuff u can do at a shooting range :rolleyes:

[Sternjaeger II]

I have to agree with the lack of tracer quality on the game. I have seen tracers fired in real world settings, I have shot them myself watching them go out. My first impression with these in the game was WTF? They look cheap, lazy, and ridiculous. They leave too fast, and appear to move in a perfectly straight line outward. No convergence what soever of ballistic drop. I tried aiming high at a bomber to ark and compensate for bullet drop....no need, they flew straight like lasers. I simply has to point and fire. Firing weapons my whole life including machine guns, I was puzzled and confused by the lack of balletic physics that appear in COD. Also, the tracers leave and at about 100 yards out and magically vanish into nothing. I hate to say it, but this is a sad excuse for tracers and seriously makes the game look as if they put something in for a temporary marker while testing and forgot to fix it.


I know a lot of you on here think they supposedly look "authentic", but having fired automatic weapons with tracers.....um, no...they look like crap and sound like crap.

Before I hear a bunch of fan boys trying to chastise me, I have been playing sims for over 20 years and am an avid support of maddox. I own the complete Il-2 series and have loved them, this is why I showed my support and bough a 50 dollar game with a POOR 2.0 average rating from all the user and professional critic reviews and websites. I figured they will work all this out, but some stuff is really bad. You have to call a spade a spade.

When I buy a new Il-2 game, and I find myself booting up 1946 to play when I have COD staring me on the shelf....yeah they really screwed the pooch. Hyper lobby if full of Il-2 hardcore gamers loading up 1946 despite the fact COD is out. That says a lot right there.

Can I ask you what calibre and "real world settings" you used when shooting tracers man?

[kalimba]

Can I ask you what calibre and "real world settings" you used when shooting tracers man?

Ok...My last post ;-)
That is very strange when so many RL experienced posters still have very different opinions regarding COD's tracers...
There is no concensus , even among all of those who shot so many types of calibers in various conditions...

Still waiting for better tracers...

SAlute !

[Sternjaeger II]

Ok...My last post ;-)
That is very strange when so many RL experienced posters still have very different opinions regarding COD's tracers...
There is no concensus , even among all of those who shot so many types of calibers in various conditions...

Still waiting for better tracers...

SAlute !

You are speculating,since different calibres behave in different ways,hence my question.

[choctaw111]

The only way to get everyone on the same page is to have them all come together to a single physical location and witness many different machine guns shooting both day and night. Then everyone can base their opinions on what their eyes actually see and not base their thoughts on the many different variables that different cameras, displays etc can produce.

[Wolf_Rider]

Ok...My last post ;-)
That is very strange when so many RL experienced posters still have very different opinions regarding COD's tracers...

SAlute !

that's probably because of lot of them have no real life experience except for hollywood... and believe just sounding knowledgeable makes it a fact

[Sternjaeger II]

that's probably because of lot of them have no real life experience except for hollywood... and believe just sounding knowledgeable makes it a fact

..how is this post supposed to help exactly? Is there any need for this flaming? :confused:

[Dialn911]

Can I ask you what calibre and "real world settings" you used when shooting tracers man?

7.62x39mm, .50 bmg, 5.56mm, 7.62X51mm, (30 cal)

[Upthair]

Have you guys made a quick search " tracers" on this forum ?
Actually, I should say: guys, obviously, you didnt make a search....

This subject has been debated for months and the conclusions are those:
Actual tracers in COD are not good enough yet and real pilots didnt see any wiggling when firing their guns...
You have 3 choices now : Trust a senior member that has been debating this subject more then too much, or, make a damn search for yourselves, or ,continue debating forever because you wont be able to prove any of what you say....Whatever you say.

I only watch this thread in the hope that someone educated will come up with something tangible...Until now, the Banana tracer is the best we have....:grin:

Salute !

The fashinating thing about physics is that it has no mercy: either you know it well or it will bite you in the aXX..

You don't need scientific rigour,but examples that need to pertinent to the topic discussed,a lot of stuff looks similar in phisics,but it's not quite the same.

and here's my point proven. The strictly backwards recoil generates force vectors,not "vibrations" that are conditioned by pivot points,and yr example is the perfect evidence:when shooting a pistol your wrist becomes the pivot point,hence the rotation upwards,which is amplified on semiautomatic pistols because of the slider movement. Interestingly enough,if you held the pistol "gangsta style",with the grip and barrel horizontally positioned,the recoil will push the pistol inwards towards yr aiming axis.. The crazy stuff u can do at a shooting range :rolleyes:

Rigid thinking styles...

~

[Sternjaeger II]

7.62x39mm, .50 bmg, 5.56mm, 7.62X51mm, (30 cal)

ok, let me recap, so you shot with a Kalashnikov, an M2, an M4 and a 30cal(30.06), right?

Most European countries don't allow automatic weapons for private use, but while in the Army I was trained to the use of:

1) the MG42/59, which is the Beretta version, chambering the 7.62 NATO round (comparable to a .308 Winchester), on both rates of fire (900rpm and 1500rpm)
2) the .50cal HMG M2, standard NATO issue
3) Beretta AR70/90, in 5.56mm NATO
4) Colt M4, also in 5.56 NATO

While travelling in the US and in exchange programs with other armies I also used similar weapons, but most notably:

1) M134 Minigun in 7.62mm NATO (shot from a helicopter stand in the sea)
2) HK21 in 7.62mm
3) M1919 in .30cal (or .30-06)

I have also seen heavier calibre guns being shot, but their range and ballistics quite differ from WW2 ones.

For whatever what I just wrote up is worth, I think that in terms of brightness the tracers of CoD are quite spot on, and although the brightness might look a bit too high (esp at a distance, but I have seen different colours/tracers behaving in different ways), I reckon they did quite a neat job with it.

As for the curvature, yes, there should be and as far as I could see there is, tracers burn for different times, and surely look like lasers (it's very thrilling to see them the first time!). Another thing to take into account is that the trajectory of tracers can differ from the other bullets because of its different weight, but this becomes more tangible at certain distances.

[Dialn911]

Well, I guess we will have to disagree. There have been vets and people such as I who have fired these things that say both. Half say they look "real", the other half, me included, say they look fake and crappy.

[Sternjaeger II]

Well, I guess we will have to disagree. There have been vets and people such as I who have fired these things that say both. Half say they look "real", the other half, me included, say they look fake and crappy.

This different opinions of people with similar experience is very surprising. I for one can tell that I've seen them in action in different settings/locations, and they pretty much all look like the ones below. Some are more smoky because of the size/tracer compound, but the streak is pretty spot on. For the people that never saw them in real life, there are countless videos on the internet that show how spot on the tracers are. Bear in mind that they've been developed to function like the real thing, by actually leaving a streak behind, not just as a fixed texture (hence the accurate rendition at slower shutter speeds). Can I ask you what you reckon they should look more like?

Anyway, among the many videos in different calibres, this one is quite spot on: the only minor squiggles you see with the tracers are due to the movement of the operator's hand (who's fairly steady actually).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOlRKbWwGTo&feature=related

[Dialn911]

This different opinions of people with similar experience is very surprising. I for one can tell that I've seen them in action in different settings/locations, and they pretty much all look like the ones below. Some are more smoky because of the size/tracer compound, but the streak is pretty spot on. For the people that never saw them in real life, there are countless videos on the internet that show how spot on the tracers are. Bear in mind that they've been developed to function like the real thing, by actually leaving a streak behind, not just as a fixed texture (hence the accurate rendition at slower shutter speeds). Can I ask you what you reckon they should look more like?

Anyway, among the many videos in different calibres, this one is quite spot on: the only minor squiggles you see with the tracers are due to the movement of the operator's hand (who's fairly steady actually).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOlRKbWwGTo&feature=related

Actually, this looks fine here, but in my opinion this looks nothing like the game.

In the game, the tracers are moving faster then this, the FPS is WAY to high on COD, the tracers in this video are moving at a healthy pace, but nothing as fast as COD. play the game and watch how fast the bullet's are traveling. Their moving twice as fast as these.The rate of fire is also way to high, either that or there is literally a tracer in every round.

Also, notice on your video how the tracers go out and appear to hang for a moment and then begin to drop? COD does none of this. There is no arcing round or glowing ball. You cant see any tracers floating in the distance. They literally go out like lasers and vanish before your eyes. If the game tracers looked like this and had these characteristics, I would be happy. However they are a far cry from looking like this video.
Also, who the hell thought to use white tracers as default? White tracers? com one on.... no one uses white tracers.

[Wolf_Rider]

its comparing modern day naval with WWII air though... completely different beasties, me wooda thort

[Sternjaeger II]

Actually, this looks fine here, but in my opinion this looks nothing like the game.

In the game, the tracers are moving faster then this, the FPS is WAY to high on COD, the tracers in this video are moving at a healthy pace, but nothing as fast as COD. play the game and watch how fast the bullet's are traveling. Their moving twice as fast as these.The rate of fire is also way to high, either that or there is literally a tracer in every round.

Also, notice on your video how the tracers go out and appear to hang for a moment and then begin to drop? COD does none of this. There is no arcing round or glowing ball. You cant see any tracers floating in the distance. They literally go out like lasers and vanish before your eyes. If the game tracers looked like this and had these characteristics, I would be happy. However they are a far cry from looking like this video.
Also, who the hell thought to use white tracers as default? White tracers? com one on.... no one uses white tracers.

hang on hang on, let's get things straight here, I think you're making a bit of confusion.

The ones you see in the videos are tracers from a naval .50cal (M2HB), which has a variable rate of 450–635 rounds/min, less than half of an RAF spec version, which had 1200 rounds/min.

Muzzle velocity of the .50cal is 2,910 ft/s (890 m/s), the RAF spec .30cal was around 800 m/s, so it's a slightly slower bullet, but the rate of fire is twice as fast.

As for the colours, if memory serves the RAF used white incendiary/tracers, but I'm trying to look for the info source on this.

[whoarmongar]

No amount of postings of videos of night shot tracer videos have any bearing on CloD tracer effects.
These videos show how tracer can look to a camera at night
The tracers in the game are trying to simulate how a tracer looks to the eye during daylight.
There is simply no comparison.

[Sternjaeger II]

No amount of postings of videos of night shot tracer videos have any bearing on CloD tracer effects.
These videos show how tracer can look to a camera at night
The tracers in the game are trying to simulate how a tracer looks to the eye during daylight.
There is simply no comparison.

What I'm trying to say is that,based on my real life experience (read above),this video is the closest rendition to what it looks like when looking at it with MkI Eyeball.

With all due respect,I think people could express an opinion on this matter ONLY if they saw tracers in real life. Lying about it is just silly and counterproductive me thinks.

[Wolf_Rider]

that's probably because of lot of them have no real life experience except for hollywood... and believe just sounding knowledgeable makes it a fact







With all due respect,I think people could express an opinion on this matter ONLY if they saw tracers in real life. Lying about it is just silly and counterproductive me thinks.







..how is this post supposed to help exactly? Is there any need for this flaming? :confused:




.

[choctaw111]

I stumbled upon this vid today. It shows tracers during the day and at night from the same vantage point on a LAV.
The cameraman pans around during the shooting and I believe this give the best impression yet of what tracers really do look like as the camera seems to record very close to what the human eye sees or at least what my eyes have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpseedqNzbg&feature=relmfu

[steppie]

I one you all for get is that all of the modern weapon that are shot are showing shots that are over 1500m or more were in the game most shot are only 300m to 500m so they look a lot faster, also tracer and incendiary round in modern armament is a lot different to what was in 1942 and they burn brighter and longer.


Here footage from spit in ww2 and you ahev trouble seeing the tracer rounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8rFPLN_Fg

this one from P51 and you don't see a lot of trcer rounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjr8ZtEcrtE&feature=related

[kalimba]

I stumbled upon this vid today. It shows tracers during the day and at night from the same vantage point on a LAV.
The cameraman pans around during the shooting and I believe this give the best impression yet of what tracers really do look like as the camera seems to record very close to what the human eye sees or at least what my eyes have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpseedqNzbg&feature=relmfu

Gimme THAT in COD , with a faint smoke trail and I will be VERY happy...!;-)

Salute !

[Heliocon]

I stumbled upon this vid today. It shows tracers during the day and at night from the same vantage point on a LAV.
The cameraman pans around during the shooting and I believe this give the best impression yet of what tracers really do look like as the camera seems to record very close to what the human eye sees or at least what my eyes have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpseedqNzbg&feature=relmfu

Thats pretty accurate, the only exception being that they look a tiny bit wider in the footage than I think they should be on a .50, but as you note they are still thinner then in game. Also in rl they are slightly narrower but more intense, but as you can see in the footage the tracer becomes shorter as it moves away from you, it will also be shorter the further you are from it in distance at a 90 degree angle.

[Sternjaeger II]

Thats pretty accurate, the only exception being that they look a tiny bit wider in the footage than I think they should be on a .50, but as you note they are still thinner then in game. Also in rl they are slightly narrower but more intense, but as you can see in the footage the tracer becomes shorter as it moves away from you, it will also be shorter the further you are from it in distance at a 90 degree angle.

oh for the love of god... that's not a .50cal, that's a 7.62 one, the .50 cal is in the end.

Another thing that "experts" don't probably know is that nowadays there are three kinds of tracers: bright, semi-bright and dim.

Once again, please bear in mind the RAF standard order of the era:

"Browning 303s fire 1200 rounds per minute, that's 20 per second. As mentioned above, what you see also depends on the number of tracers loaded. If you have a tracer every 5 rounds then that's 4 tracers streaking away every second."

[Heliocon]

oh for the love of god... that's not a .50cal, that's a 7.62 one, the .50 cal is in the end.

Another thing that "experts" don't probably know is that nowadays there are three kinds of tracers: bright, semi-bright and dim.

Once again, please bear in mind the RAF standard order of the era:

"Browning 303s fire 1200 rounds per minute, that's 20 per second. As mentioned above, what you see also depends on the number of tracers loaded. If you have a tracer every 5 rounds then that's 4 tracers streaking away every second."

Mr genius I was talking about the .50 cal at the end, not the APC gun ffs. As for your other comments, are you talking to yourself? I never commented on that, I am only comparing them to what I have seen once in RL. But I am sure you were there in 1940 to compare the tracers right?

[ATAG_Dutch]

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Is it over yet :(

Blimey.:rolleyes:

[Targ]

I voted "dont care"

[skouras]

I voted "dont care"

agreed

[Madfish]

Normally, I would not go to this trouble to disclose who I am or my credentials, however you have been very smug and rude to others as well as me. Sometime punks like you with a loud mouth need to be shut up and put in their place. You questioned my background? here you go. Unless you have something showing me your REAL WORLD experience, your nothing more then a weekend warrior hiding behind a keyboard thinking their the greatest thing since tetris.

Pretty sad.

I reported that post of yours and although I doubt anyone will do anything on this weird forum I really hope your carreer ends soon or that you eventually re-read your posts and learn how to let others have an opinion even if you think you're cool and know it all. You sound like one of those cops most wish would've just stayed out of the business. Calling people punks, "putting them in their place" and all while behaving like a criminal yourself. In the country I come from calling a cop a punk is an offense - most likely the same for yours. So how come you join this forum and point out your "resumee" while behaving like a criminal? This is insane, you should be deeply ashamed.

You are one of those reasons why people laugh about america where I come from. Probably also one of the reasons why you have such an insane criminal rate in your country. If cops can't follow basic ethics and rules then why do you expect others to?

In my opinion you are just a "rank" warrior yourself, hiding behind a uniform and guns and thinking you're something better. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you don't like it just go away. Reading your post scares me to hell because everytime I have to do business in your country I run into stupid cops who behave like gangsters and you seem to be very proud of that culture yourself. The word tolerance and self control is probably new to you but I recommend looking into it and NOT repeating such crazy misbehavior because it reflects on all cops which don't have a very good reputation - neither with "punks" nor with normal "people". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5MSdORQI_U

That said I also want to vote "don't care". Tracers are probably the most unimportant thing to me. Especially because the ones we got are okayish.

Most humans eyes are different. Also modern ammo can't be compared to the 50ies. The projectiles changed in both, shape (aerodynamics) and the firing mechanics themselves have been altered. Small caliber and cannon is also a big difference.

Yes, the tracers could eventually be fine tuned but it's not a big deal to me. I prefer a great flight model, more planes, easier ways to create awesome mission content, beautiful scenery and so on. But to each his own I guess.

One thing most people should not forget though: it's almost impossible to re-model tracers accurately. This depends on 2 things I believe
1. eyes cannot "capture" tracers visually - only see them in movement - or rather because eyes cannot follow them entirely we see them.
2. everyone has different frame rates etc. - so the effect of a tracer might vary unless we would have a game with a fixed frame rate of e.g. 60 or 120 for 3d.


If it comes to visuals like that I'd rather have more detail in the scenery than the most perfect tracers ever. Cool clouds, weather effects, rain, fog, dust, leafs swirling around, more ground detail, more objects etc.

[tranquillity]

Mh, all the same I actually regret that this thread has been taken over, or lets say taken away from the subject that winny, yellonet and helicon were argueing about.

I read the whole thread now in about 1,5 hours, and winny really made a point there within this discussion, sadly Bliss just did not get it.

Now the last few pages since yellonet and winny are not writing anymore it is dull again like in the beginning, old stuff gets brought up again and again like vibrations and guncam footage.

The idea that the tracer "bar"'s front point is inside the trajectory arc, but the "bar"'s end is not when for example pulling up or down is a good one.

Winny and yellonet, go ahead, hopefully you will ever get a statement of a dev what they think about it(its just geometry/math/physics ;; they sure considered this in the making, but must have had other priorities)

Whatever, let them rage on in here:rolleyes: