crash at duxford today [2011]

[BigPickle]

Both pilots alive no one hurt!
P51 collided with a skyraider when peeling away, took a chuck outta the A1's wing which the pilot got control of and landed, but the p51 was un-saveable and the pilot had to bail out. But no one was hurt which is the main thing.

[JG52Krupi]

Bugger :( so sad at least there are quite a few P-51 flying.... good to hear the pilot survived.

[Trumper]

Without speculating too much ,seemed it was the Skyraider that collided with the P51 according to witnesses. http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110391&page=2
I took this 1 minute before they collided,BBD P51 infront .
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/Bennyscooby/IMG_8766Medium.jpg

The ground them now brigade will have a field day.

[JG52Uther]

A friend of mine was working there, P51 pilot was lucky apparently,low bailout.

[Tbag]

good photos of the skyraider:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35085&start=25

[JG53Harti]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1771880&postcount=77

[JG52Krupi]

Damn it had to be the "Big Beautiful Doll" I have seen countless images of that particular P-51 :(. Was hoping to see it at some point.

[JG52Uther]

Big Beautiful Doll I believe Krupi. Batz works there,and said the pilot was in the pilots lounge with an arm in a sling later.Lucky guy!

[JG52Krupi]

Big Beautiful Doll I believe Krupi. Batz works there,and said the pilot was in the pilots lounge with an arm in a sling later.Lucky guy!

Whoops :D thanks for pointing that out and nice to hear hes in good shape.

[Nitrous]

Did not see the collision directly as i was looking at the planes taxiing on the ground but it was shocking seeing debris falling from the sky then we saw a parachute open and the skyraider make an emergency landing.

Its fantastic to hear that both pilots were ok. Looked fooking low and fast bailout to me.

Feeeewwwwww....

[Ali Fish]

Without speculating too much ,seemed it was the Skyraider that collided with the P51 according to witnesses. http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110391&page=2
I took this 1 minute before they collided,BBD P51 infront .
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/Bennyscooby/IMG_8766Medium.jpg

The ground them now brigade will have a field day.

so you are Alistair. :) iam an Alasdair.

[Nitrous]

It was the skyraider.

Or

Was it a problem with the P-51 not turning sharp enough??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qME7VefLxFw

[Nitrous]

This also happened.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciMaBKhgAGQ


The dredded curse of the P-38???

[Nitrous]

Another video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JVYYKF4ZaI

[mazex]

Nasty - check the images in this thread:

http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=75882

[Mysticpuma]

Amazing....gazillions of people there and we have two phone cameras capture the event 400-miles away! :(

Blimey!

Oh well at-least the Pilot's are safe, cheers, MP

[RocketDog]

The BBC have some video here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641

I was just leaving the carpark when the collision happened and turned round to see the Skyraider upside down and with bits falling off before it disappeared from view behind a hangar. I thought he had gone in for certain, but he managed to recover and land OK. The P-51 took a hell of a whack, but seemed to recover a bit, allowing the pilot chance to bail out.

[JG52Krupi]

Damn iPhone won't let me watch the video.

But I do see s pic and I was expecting the p-51 to have more visible damage but it looks fine compared to the skyraider...

[RocketDog]

Some pics of the P-51 pilot bailing out here: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=110391&page=3 (scroll down a bit)

It looks like the Skyraider wing hit the underside of the fuselage between the wing and tailplane (nearer the wing) and put a huge dent in it, perhaps damaging the control runs to the elevator and rudder. The BBC video shows the P-51 being almost knocked out of control by the force of the impact. The pilot's parachute deployed with only seconds to spare.

[Mysticpuma]

The BBC have some video here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641

I was just leaving the carpark when the collision happened and turned round to see the Skyraider upside down and with bits falling off before it disappeared from view behind a hangar. I thought he had gone in for certain, but he managed to recover and land OK. The P-51 took a hell of a whack, but seemed to recover a bit, allowing the pilot chance to bail out.


Does no-one know how to operate a bloody camera!!!!!! That's the second clip where there is a collison and everyone stops filming....totally bizarre!

Thanks for the link though, cheers, MP

[mazex]

Some pics of the P-51 pilot bailing out here: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=110391&page=3 (scroll down a bit)

It looks like the Skyraider wing hit the underside of the fuselage between the wing and tailplane (nearer the wing) and put a huge dent in it, perhaps damaging the control runs to the elevator and rudder. The BBC video shows the P-51 being almost knocked out of control by the force of the impact. The pilot's parachute deployed with only seconds to spare.

Combining the damage in this post with the "cut" in the fuselage:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1771880&postcount=77

With this drawing showing the control cables:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1772179&postcount=174

I would say there is a big risk he lost the control cables... Bad luck as the damage to the airframe was not that bad otherwise? At the other hand, when managing to bale out at that altitude it feels a bit picky to talk about bad luck... Impressive to make that decision so fast and manage to get out in a few seconds.

Further speculation (would not speculate if someone got hurt!)...

Looking at the high res Youtube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qME7VefLxFw
there is something weird with how flat the P-51 breaks away compared to the Skyraider and the other P51? Could he have gotten some engine problem that made a steep turn impossible? I guess the Skyraider pilot was confused that he could not see the P-51 while baking away hard - as the P51 had almost stopped turning at that point and went rather straight out after turning 60-70 degrees? May be fooled by the angle though...

[PeterPanPan]

This happened as I was leaving, so didn't see/hear it at all (which is odd, as I was in earshot of the tannoy system for ages).

Here are a couple of pics of the 2 aircraft involved, only a short while before the collision.

http://www.360vision.co.uk/uploads/il2/mustang.jpg

Is that a pitot tube under the Skyraider's right wing, where it's folded up? If so, that pilot also had to contend with a dead ASI and a missing wing tip. Makes his recovery and landing even better.

http://www.360vision.co.uk/uploads/il2/skyraider.jpg

So pleased both pilots walked away ok.

PPP

[PeterPanPan]

... and here's a short clip of her last ever taxi :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TujQuzoR2k8

PPP

[Houndstone Hawk]

Amazing....gazillions of people there and we have two phone cameras capture the event 400-miles away!

Does no-one know how to operate a bloody camera!!!!!! That's the second clip where there is a collison and everyone stops filming....totally bizarre!

Thanks for the link though, cheers, MP

Sorry but I can't let this go. People like you bug the XXXXXXXX crap out of me. Only interestede in a 'creepy peepshow'.
Yes I videoed the whole event yesterday; yes I saw what happended, yes I immidietely then turned my camera off.

I realise had I had filmed the event then it would've been perhaps helpful to the air crash invistigation team at a later date & some good comes out of such footage but I'm glad my footage isn't used to entertain XXXXX like you.

BBD gone for good, massive blow but no one was hurt but you'll probably be disappointed in learning that there was no epic fireball or plumes of smoke or gasps from the crowd; just decent folk that knew when to stop filming, out of concern, respect, whatever!!!

[ckolonko]

The BBC video shows the wreckage of the P-51. From what I saw there is more than enough left of the 'plane to rebuild it. They have rebuilt Spitfires from less parts.

[swiss]

the bbc video shows the wreckage of the p-51. From what i saw there is more than enough left of the 'plane to rebuild it. They have rebuilt spitfires from less parts.

rofl!

[JG52Krupi]

Have only seen the wreck on the distant pics but I hope your proven right or at least it's turned into a static rebuild :( it is one of the more famous survivors.

[ZG26-extralarge]

i dont think we will see bbd back in the air..... :cry:

[Viper2000]

Impressive flying by the Skyraider pilot to save the aeroplane. It's a miracle that nobody was hurt.

It wouldn't surprise me if the P-51 was rebuilt; the concept of "beyond economic repair" doesn't apply to this sort of aeroplane.

Yes I videoed the whole event yesterday; yes I saw what happended, yes I immidietely then turned my camera off.

I realise had I had filmed the event then it would've been perhaps helpful to the air crash invistigation team at a later date & some good comes out of such footage but I'm glad my footage isn't used to entertain XXXXX like you.

[...]

just decent folk that knew when to stop filming, out of concern, respect, whatever!!!

I find this attitude most unfortunate. Accident footage is extremely beneficial to aviation safety. In addition to directly aiding the investigators, it also allows other pilots to get a feel for the anatomy of an accident.

This isn't really about the spectacular crash part which some may find ghoulish; it's about the lead-up (though it's also actually quite helpful for people to see what the limits of a parachute escape are, both in terms of time and altitude, so that they are better equipped to make that very important split-second decision should they be forced into a nightmare scenario).

It is a fact that safety is to a certain extent self-limiting because as things become safer, fewer people are exposed to accidents, which inherently limits their ability to learn from the mistakes of others. Video footage of accidents is therefore extremely useful, because it allows far more people to learn.

Not filming doesn't prevent the accident. Whilst there may be people who get some kind of kick out of watching crashes, I think that really that's their problem; it shouldn't be aviation's problem. If one person learns something which helps to prevent an accident, I personally think that's well worth any number of ghouls getting their rocks off.

[JG52Krupi]

I watch these accidents to understand where the fault lies, pilot or aircraft it's the same reason I watch aircraft accident investigations. But I'm sure there people that watch these shows for all the wrong reasons :(.

These videos do help investigations but I can understand why people would turn it off incase they are recording the last second of a persons life.

[Sternjaeger]

I was airborne when it haopened,good to know that Rob miraculously got out ok!

I believe that the accident happened for three reasons:
1) you DON'T do that opening from a Vic formation,you do it from Echelon,poor planning made by people that obviously aren't that competent.

2) you tend not to do these manoeuvres with planes that have different performances,and if you do..

3) ..you dont go for a 2 secs break interval,you go for a 5 secs one.

Flying Legends has been under the CAA radar for years cos of it's previous accidents,this might well be the last year of it,cos it's a mixture of pilot's error (one French pilot has been grounded on Sat,the other one will be as well probably) and inadequate preparation/briefing.

Lots of pilots with mixed experience,a lot of planes all over the place..
I was there on Sat and me and my friend from the Air Force were a bit surprised by some of the procedures..

Anyway,on a funny/gossip note: the plane had just been sold to a new German owner,who was watching the show,so there must have been the French pilot going "XXXX!",the English pilot going "XXXX!" and the German owner going "XXXXXXXX!" all at the same time ;-)

[Viper2000]

Flying Legends has been under the CAA radar for years cos of it's previous accidents,this might well be the last year of it,cos it's a mixture of pilot's error (one French pilot has been grounded on Sat,the other one will be as well probably) and inadequate preparation/briefing.

The closest thing to a warbird crash I've ever seen was a Martlet conducting a barrel roll at Duxford from an inadvisable altitude, bottoming out so low that I couldn't help but close my eyes (<10 feet; it was very "barrelled", the peak being perhaps 80 feet, and it seemed pretty obvious that the pilot had just underestimated how much it would drop during the rest of the manoeuvre - perhaps he was used to flying something which rolled faster?). That was probably 15 years ago or more.

The funny thing is that almost nobody else seemed to take any notice. Only about half were even watching (it wasn't a big airshow day), and I suppose most of the people who were assumed that it was deliberate. Perhaps it was, but I doubt it, and if it was then the pilot was rather too bold for my taste.

Anyway,on a funny/gossip note: the plane had just been sold to a new German owner,who was watching the show,so there must have been the French pilot going "*****!",the English pilot going "****!" and the German owner going "********!" all at the same time ;-)

All of which would probably have been as nothing when compared with the tirade coming from the insurer's office...

[BigPickle]

Duxford has a terrible cross wind, and in years gone by this has been blamed. The state of the runway is dreadful, it is littered with FOD all over from the damage to it which is never or rarely repaired.
It is a great shame as Flying Legends is the only place to see all these beautiful aircraft at once, but thats part of the problem, too many aircraft in the air and on the ground at once without extra vigilant co-ordination.

There is something deeply wrong with the display's setup and co-ordination, 4 deaths and countless accidents resulting in the loss of some very rare aircraft including the Blenhiem, P38, Air Cobra, Hurricane and Spitfire just to name the major ones in the last 15 years shows that actions need to be taken.
I think their future looks very bleek right now and as sad as i am to say it quite rightly so.
Crowd managment is a shambles, you can actually walk around to the back side of the field to watch the display! If ever a plane came down there, there would be major fatalities.
Last year with the 16 spitfires, my life ! It was a stunning sight but take off was like wacky racers, it looked totally un organized. Scary stuff.
Also they push the boundaries in how close they fly to the crowd for sure.

[JG52Krupi]

Giant carebear wait for the official report before jumping down officials throat.

No one died that is the main thing.

[bongodriver]

I have seen 3 fatal crashes first hand, one was the sea fury 'baby gorilla' which Paul morgan was killed in, and in 2 separate incidents I have lost 4 colleagues and a good aquaintance (Ted Girdler) killed in a display at eastbourne.

it may seem 'inhuman' to some the concept of filming a fatal crash but the footage would be more than usefull for investigations and could even be beneficial to answer questions bereaved relatives may have...when they are ready for it, if you are filming anyway....like many do at airshows or just aviation enthusiasts who film everything that fly's then dont stop recording for the sake of some misguided 'respect', just dont give the footage to the media or youtube first.

My 2C

[BigPickle]

Giant carebear wait for the official report before jumping down officials throat.

No one died that is the main thing.

huh Explain :confused:

[JG52Krupi]

huh Explain :confused:

The part about flying legends future looking bleak, its pointless to point fingers at anyone atm, wait for the official investigation.

*I may have taken your post the wrong way it sounded like you wanted flying legends shut, sorry if i got the wrong impression.

[ckolonko]

rofl!

Its true. In the vintage aircraft world an aircraft may contain very few original parts of the aircraft and still be considered an original warbird. An interesting read is the Haynes Spitfire manual. It shows how Spitfires are restored and also provides information regarding what is considered an original warbird and what is seen as a 'New' Aircraft.

[BigPickle]

*I may have taken your post the wrong way it sounded like you wanted flying legends shut, sorry if i got the wrong impression.

Its ok mate no harm done at all. I love Flying Legends but its clear that they need to make major changes to the situation. The reason i say bleak is because the CAA has major issues with the way the show has been operated for a long time.
It will be a big blow for aviation if the worst happens, but i think they'll struggle through it, i just hope they change their setup and make it safer rather than cram too much into too shorter time slots.

[Mysticpuma]

Sorry but I can't let this go. People like you bug the XXXXXXXX crap out of me. Only interestede in a 'creepy peepshow'.
Yes I videoed the whole event yesterday; yes I saw what happended, yes I immidietely then turned my camera off.

I realise had I had filmed the event then it would've been perhaps helpful to the air crash invistigation team at a later date & some good comes out of such footage but I'm glad my footage isn't used to entertain XXXXX like you.



Sadly you couldn't be more wrong. I actually work as a Professional Photographer and I would have carried on shooting and/or filming for far-more than Ghoulish reasons, which you sadly misconceive I have :(

When it comes to the actual collision, 20 people will have 20 points of view about how it happened. Video footage is brilliant at capturing actual direction and detail of collisions as-well as has been pointed out, the result of this occurring.

From the images we have seen and has been readily discussed, it appears the Skyraider collided with the P-51, these are all impressions of the incident. Now, as we have video and we have both pilots, they can explain what they saw and what they perceive happened, along with the footage that shows the events.

Now allied to that, video would also show an exterior of BBD and what damage had occurred along with the Pilots behaviour on bailing and also his position on landing relative to the crash site. If he had not been so lucky the video would have also have shown why he had failed in surviving. Now that doesn't mean I want to see/we want to see a Pilots demise posted her, but that video footage would have been incredibly useful to an ACI team figuring out why his chute never opened, if he hit a wing/tail/rudder all of which is denied by the moralistic POV of the video camera operator.

Sadly to be in a position to shoot that video doesn't mean you are a ghoul and if it does, surely posting any video clips of any incident fatal or non-fatal should all be censored as 'it's not right' to video this type of event (according to the moral viewpoint), however holding a video camera and filming an event is useful to the ACI, but as in this case no-one died, what is the point of not filming the incident, then bragging that it has been filmed (by showing the clip) and then saying "but I didn't think it was right, so I stopped filming!". If you didn't think it was right to film it, then why post footage afterwards? In which case, bragging rights go to the videographer, well done, you failed in capturing an important incident, but thanks for posting a clip that shows what happened but is not really much use to any pilots who find themselves in a similar (even if they are really unlucky) position.

I don't care if you consider me ghoulish, I presume the other 14,000 visitors to the Youtube link are similarly ghoulish, which is pretty much anyone who clicked on the link in this thread and was puzzled as to why a guy filming an important event turned his camera off and the other one turned his camera away.

I guess being a Professional makes me consider this event more important than others, it's shame I was one of the only ones to voice my opinion and been targeted because I can't understand why someone would stop filming something so interesting?

Odd.

MP

[BigPickle]

I dont think your goulish mate, I served in Iraq for 3 tours while i was in the forces, and found that it opened a side in myself, in a way that mortal danger to yourself or others does hold a lure that is hard to turn away from even when it makes you sicken inside.

[furbs]

+1 Mystic

[swiss]

Its true. In the vintage aircraft world an aircraft may contain very few original parts of the aircraft and still be considered an original warbird. An interesting read is the Haynes Spitfire manual. It shows how Spitfires are restored and also provides information regarding what is considered an original warbird and what is seen as a 'New' Aircraft.

Ok which parts u want to reuse?

This thing fell down from what, 300yards, angle was >30°
Frame:gone
Wings: dito
Tail: dito
Engine: if your lucky the block made it

You can't even use the sheet aluminium.

so you can use a few parts(<5%?) in a brand new plane.
Part it and sell the parts - why go through a restoration?
There are more than 150 P51 in flying condition.

[JG52Krupi]

For me it was one of the more famous ones flying, when ever I saw anything pic, video or discussion around a P-51 I always think of BBD :(

[bongodriver]

isn't there a static BBD in the duxford USAAF museum?

[Sternjaeger II]

Duxford has a terrible cross wind, and in years gone by this has been blamed. The state of the runway is dreadful, it is littered with FOD all over from the damage to it which is never or rarely repaired.

whoa whoa whoa, there's no terrible crosswind in Duxford man, who said that? Besides, you can't always blame crosswind for a landing accident, it's normally cos people venture out when they shouldn't.


It is a great shame as Flying Legends is the only place to see all these beautiful aircraft at once, but thats part of the problem, too many aircraft in the air and on the ground at once without extra vigilant co-ordination.

There is something deeply wrong with the display's setup and co-ordination, 4 deaths and countless accidents resulting in the loss of some very rare aircraft including the Blenhiem, P38, Air Cobra, Hurricane and Spitfire just to name the major ones in the last 15 years shows that actions need to be taken.
I think their future looks very bleek right now and as sad as i am to say it quite rightly so.

Completely agree on this one.


Crowd managment is a shambles, you can actually walk around to the back side of the field to watch the display! If ever a plane came down there, there would be major fatalities.
Last year with the 16 spitfires, my life ! It was a stunning sight but take off was like wacky racers, it looked totally un organized. Scary stuff.
Also they push the boundaries in how close they fly to the crowd for sure.

well some of the nearby fields are privately held, and you can't forbid people to go there if the land owner is ok with it unfortunately.

But yeah, they're pushing the boundaries and there are two or three usual suspects that fly well outside safety measures..

[Sternjaeger II]

isn't there a static BBD in the duxford USAAF museum?

yeah but it's a patch up/frankenstein thingie.

[Sternjaeger II]

Ok which parts u want to reuse?

This thing fell down from what, 300yards, angle was >30°
Frame:gone
Wings: dito
Tail: dito
Engine: if your lucky the block made it

You can't even use the sheet aluminium.

so you can use a few parts(<5%?) in a brand new plane.
Part it and sell the parts - why go through a restoration?
There are more than 150 P51 in flying condition.

it's not a matter of what you can salvage, it's a matter of bureaucracy/paperwork.. you can't save much from there, but enough to reuse the same reg. Give it a 4 years time and you might see her back in the air, better than before..

[Sternjaeger II]

Sadly you couldn't be more wrong. I actually work as a Professional Photographer

you're not one of those "stepladder and/or fence" folks are you? ;)

[engadin]

A perfect video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmsJW0-6JB0&feature=player_embedded

BTW, where was the Skyrider pilot looking at? He had the whole bl***y sky for him to fly through but that tiny room occupied by the P-51 itself! Sorry, but I feel so terribly ungry .....

Engadin

[bongodriver]

A perfect video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmsJW0-6JB0&feature=player_embedded

BTW, where was the Skyrider pilot looking at? He had the whole bl***y sky for him to fly through but that tiny room occupied by the P-51 itself! Sorry, but I feel so terribly ungry .....

Engadin

I have to say I agree, the skyraider pilot seemed at fault, but did a great job bringing it home.

[Sternjaeger II]

A perfect video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmsJW0-6JB0&feature=player_embedded

BTW, where was the Skyrider pilot looking at? He had the whole bl***y sky for him to fly through but that tiny room occupied by the P-51 itself! Sorry, but I feel so terribly ungry .....

Engadin

first of all thanks for the very good video, and yes, it's obvious the Skyrider pilot lost visual contact and went too brisk on his manoeuvre, but it's again a fault of who organised the Balbo itself, you don't break off from a Vic formation like that with planes that operate at different speeds. We'll see what the CAA will tell.

[Mysticpuma]

first of all thanks for the very good video, and yes, it's obvious the Skyrider pilot lost visual contact and went too brisk on his manoeuvre, but it's again a fault of who organised the Balbo itself, you don't break off from a Vic formation like that with planes that operate at different speeds. We'll see what the CAA will tell.

GHOUL!!!!!!! Lol!

Shame the video has been removed though :(

[II./JG1_Wilcke]

Depends, on how the pre-flight brief went down. Aviation is very unforgiving of any inattentions or mistakes.

The Skyraider is a beast of an aircraft, loads of damage and it still made it home!

[Trumper]

GHOUL!!!!!!! Lol!

Shame the video has been removed though :(

May be this one http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

[Trumper]

well some of the nearby fields are privately held, and you can't forbid people to go there if the land owner is ok with it unfortunately.

But yeah, they're pushing the boundaries and there are two or three usual suspects that fly well outside safety measures..

The airfield is surrounded by roads and a built up area on 2 sides.
Luckily the fields are big enough to lessen the chances of a major incident BUT i personally have seen Black 6 109 bounce over the M11 , a Harvard land in the field opposite,Firefly crossing a public road and crashing into a field adjacent to housing,P38 debris bouncing over the M11.

[Sternjaeger II]

The airfield is surrounded by roads and a built up area on 2 sides.
Luckily the fields are big enough to lessen the chances of a major incident BUT i personally have seen Black 6 109 bounce over the M11 , a Harvard land in the field opposite,Firefly crossing a public road and crashing into a field adjacent to housing,P38 debris bouncing over the M11.

yeah, it's a bit of a short blanket, you can't cover all safety aspects. But they really really need to brief pilots better and make sure things are clear and redundant, it's not a racing or aerobatic competition.

I am afraid that after this one they will receive SERIOUS restrictions, if not a shutdown.. let's hope they're allowed to redesign their display with safer parameters.

[swiss]

it's not a matter of what you can salvage, it's a matter of bureaucracy/paperwork.. you can't save much from there, but enough to reuse the same reg. Give it a 4 years time and you might see her back in the air, better than before..

So it would be a completely new AC, with the old reg though.
What's so important about the reg?

[ElAurens]

I have seen a mid 50's Ferrari that was "rebuilt" from nothing more than the original serial number plate and a door hinge. (After a fire). Totally accepted by the Ferrari cognoscenti.

There is nothing new about this. Certain vehicles, be they earth bound or airborne, command values that make raising them from the ashes a profitable proposition.

[Sternjaeger II]

So it would be a completely new AC, with the old reg though.
What's so important about the reg?

Well one thing is a restoration of an existing aircraft,which was registered under an aviation authority (the German one in this specific case,since the plane had just been bought) and was classified under "North American Aviation P-51D Mustang",and another is building a mustang from nothing,which in the US would go under the Expedimental category,but won't be accepted in Europe. Truth is that it's the same thing,cos it will be an extensive rebuild of the plane,but if you manage to save a minor part of the original hull,you can still claim it as the original machine. The fact that BBD didn't catch fire means that someone will buy the wreck and build himself a Mustang from scratch,using other parts from other planes and a zeroed Merlin,it's only aatter of time. There are genuine warbirds out there,and reassembled ones,which are as good (if not better!) than the others,but dont have a pedigree.
Back in the days it didnt really matter,but now collectors look into this a lot.

[Sternjaeger II]

As for someone who mentioned the insurance,it really depends on how they insured it. With this kinda planes u can go for a third party only (mandatory) and then choose to insure the plane itself,and u can also insure just a percentage of it. Bear in mind that insuring something like a P-51 can cost some £40k a year..

[swiss]

I have seen a mid 50's Ferrari that was "rebuilt" from nothing more than the original serial number plate and a door hinge. (After a fire). Totally accepted by the Ferrari cognoscenti.


I know someone who went to jail for selling such a ferrari for 4M.
He "forgot" to tell the buyer.
And no, you're not accepted, if show up with a 3xx they will even laugh about u.

[swiss]

Well one thing is a restoration of an existing aircraft,which was registered under an aviation authority (the German one in this specific case,since the plane had just been bought) and was classified under "North American Aviation P-51D Mustang",and another is building a mustang from nothing,which in the US would go under the Expedimental category,but won't be accepted in Europe. Truth is that it's the same thing,cos it will be an extensive rebuild of the plane,but if you manage to save a minor part of the original hull,you can still claim it as the original machine.

Aah - ok, I see.
Thx for the explanation.

[SEE]

first of all thanks for the very good video, and yes, it's obvious the Skyrider pilot lost visual contact and went too brisk on his manoeuvre, but it's again a fault of who organised the Balbo itself, you don't break off from a Vic formation like that with planes that operate at different speeds. We'll see what the CAA will tell.


This was a two day event, the Balbo was faultless on the Saturday but they were flying in groups of four not three as on the Sunday, the separation as each pilot left the formation seemed much bigger (as the order went 1, 3, 2 then 4 ?). The commentary broadcast during the entire Balbo was very detailed regards the final break away /timing, etc. Such a pity but it does look like that Skyraider got it wrong.

[Sternjaeger II]

This was a two day event, the Balbo was faultless on the Saturday but they were flying in groups of four not three as on the Sunday, the separation as each pilot left the formation seemed much bigger (as the order went 1, 3, 2 then 4 ?). The commentary broadcast during the entire Balbo was very detailed regards the final break away /timing, etc. Such a pity but it does look like that Skyraider got it wrong.

yeah, I know their routine very well, I was there on Saturday and yet again, like every year, I thought that the way they do things put them in an unnecessary risk.

The Skyrider pilot got it wrong because it looks like he lost visual contact with the Mustang, or didn't respect the speeds agreed on the briefing, or a combination of all these.

[Buzpilot]

http://player.vimeo.com/video/26291756?

Looking at the slow speed part, the P-51 looks undammaged, Skyraider lost part of wing, but managed to land.
Did P-51 pilot panic, or was elevators uncontrollable?:confused:

[bongodriver]

after an impact like that there is no way the P51 would be 'undamaged' and that is exactly where the elevator and rudder control runs are, I am surprised the P51 didn't loose it's tail completely, so I don't think the pilot paniced any more than was necessary, hell I wouldn't blame him for bailing even if the aircraft was initially controllable, you saw how low the parachute opened.

[ckolonko]

Ok which parts u want to reuse?

This thing fell down from what, 300yards, angle was >30°
Frame:gone
Wings: dito
Tail: dito
Engine: if your lucky the block made it

You can't even use the sheet aluminium.

so you can use a few parts(<5%?) in a brand new plane.
Part it and sell the parts - why go through a restoration?
There are more than 150 P51 in flying condition.

It's a matter of provenance. Simple as that.

[Sternjaeger II]

Just saying its a possibility if the owner wants to. Christ on a bloody bike.

watch your swearing buddy, we got particularly zealous mods around here ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

http://player.vimeo.com/video/26291756?

Looking at the slow speed part, the P-51 looks undammaged, Skyraider lost part of wing, but managed to land.
Did P-51 pilot panic, or was elevators uncontrollable?:confused:

the P-51 control and trim cables run alongside the fuselage on double sets, the point of impact was where they do run, which probably severed them.

Considering the pilot's age (64), he acted incredibly fast and managed to get out of it almost unscathed. Hats off to Rob Davies!

[swiss]

It's a matter of provenance. Simple as that.


Related to the P51 or your Ferrari?
Obiviously the reg of the P51 is worth more than the plane itself - with oldtimers it's a different story, no one cares if the car has a title or not(they are sold around the globe, new owner, new country, new title: Problem solved) - the hardware is the important part.

OT Ferrari example:
If the parts used, were from the original car it wouldn't be a problem.
Each car part is numbered(doors, bonnet etc), those numbers must match the rest of the car, spare parts have different numbers. Even if you manage to find original Ferrari parts, they still are not original parts(of that car).
Apply a new coat of paint - loss in worth
New interior - loss
Heck, each screw you change on an oltimer results in a loss.

That is, unless it's a complete wreck, but then again, no one will pay you big bucks for a "Raggedy-Ann" car. It's usually not even worth to start the rebuild, as you can only get back your investment for the rebuild itself.

[_RAAF_Mini]

The voice at the end of the clip on Flying Film link at normal speed i think is the pilot of Ferocious Frankie who circled Robs landing site for a few minutes after he went down - incase anybody wondered ;P

[Zorin]

the P-51 control and trim cables run alongside the fuselage on double sets, the point of impact was where they do run, which probably severed them.

Considering the pilot's age (64), he acted incredibly fast and managed to get out of it almost unscathed. Hats off to Rob Davies!

Why is a 64 year old allowed to fly a warbird? That would be like allowing him to drive a F1 car...

[Zorin]

Who would have more experience in the type? A 64 year old, or some 20 year old simmer? Also, ownership probably has a big say in who flies the aircraft.

Experience won't get you anywhere, lower reaction times and physical limitations are well known facts of age and should lead to a flight ban. Simple as that.

He should use his experience to train new pilots and not hang on it for vanity's sake. Plus, he wrote off several million dollars there... not very smart.

[Fjordmonkey]

Experience won't get you anywhere, lower reaction times and physical limitations are well known facts of age and should lead to a flight ban. Simple as that.

He should use his experience to train new pilots and not hang on it for vanity's sake. Plus, he wrote off several million dollars there... not very smart.

Experience will get you everywhere, lower reaction-time and physical limitations are a non-issue as long as he passes the medical. If he didn't pass his medical last time he took it, he wouldn't be flying. Period.

He used his experience to show people the wonder that is a warbird. This was an accident, and at least to me, it looks like the Mustang-pilot wasn't to blame. I'll await the final accident-report before I start speculating on what really happened. In other words: poo happens.

[Sternjaeger II]

Experience won't get you anywhere, lower reaction times and physical limitations are well known facts of age and should lead to a flight ban. Simple as that.

He should use his experience to train new pilots and not hang on it for vanity's sake. Plus, he wrote off several million dollars there... not very smart.

well first of all he OWNED the plane and was deemed as physically fit to fly it; second thing he logged HUNDREDS of hours on it; third, he got out of there like a gazelle on redbull when he got hit, which was the wiser thing to do, it's not worth dying for something that is insured and can be rebuilt.. I would think twice before making such stupid statements fellas..

[ckolonko]

watch your swearing buddy, we got particularly zealous mods around here ;)
Sorry bout that. I just cant get the Image of jesus riding a bike out of my head.
Still very sad to see such a beautiful 'plane getting wrecked. No matter how common they are.

[Sternjaeger II]

Sorry bout that. I just cant get the Image of jesus riding a bike out of my head.
Still very sad to see such a beautiful 'plane getting wrecked. No matter how common they are.

hehehe I know, and a bloody one too ;)

Yep, shame indeed, it was a fine machine.

[Mysticpuma]

http://player.vimeo.com/video/26291756?

Looking at the slow speed part, the P-51 looks undammaged, Skyraider lost part of wing, but managed to land.
Did P-51 pilot panic, or was elevators uncontrollable?:confused:

Wow impressive video and I am sure of great use to ACI.....good-job someone decided to keep videoing! ;)

Thanks for the link, cheers, MP

[kristorf]

Found this picture

http://s3.postimage.org/bqnikn1d5/IMG_3204.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)
hosting images (http://www.postimage.org/)

A mate who restores warbirds thinks the control cables were severed

[Bryan21cag]

wow im no ghoul lol but i too was instantly frustrated by the clips that stopped recording, only because i could not see the extent of the damage to BBD.

After watching that last vid with the slow motion I have to say That might have been the most level headed bit of piloting i have seen in a while. :)

Stern or the other heavy iron pilots can correct me if im wrong here as I have no experience in these types of aircraft but looks to me like A second after the collision he jetted his canopy in preparation for what he may have to do (very quick thinking), and then spent several more seconds trying to get the nose up and as far as i could tell it never responded to what ever inputs he was giving it (possibly the control cables were cut as previously discussed) and then made yet another split second decision to get the H. E. double hockey sticks out of there.

It seemed like while she still had a bit of up attitude left in her he was still working the controls trying to get a response but then when she started to go nose down and she still wasn't responding he made the call to bail.

I guess the investigation will show what it shows but that's what my untrained saw in that last video anyway :)

WoW :) i bet his first Beer that night never tasted so good :)

Cheers and thanks for that last video whom ever made it and posted it :)

[Zorin]

well first of all he OWNED the plane and was deemed as physically fit to fly it; second thing he logged HUNDREDS of hours on it; third, he got out of there like a gazelle on redbull when he got hit, which was the wiser thing to do, it's not worth dying for something that is insured and can be rebuilt.. I would think twice before making such stupid statements fellas..

I will remember your words when I smash my Ferrari in your frontyard when I am 64... I own it, I have logged hundreds of hours and it is ensured... blablabla...

It is pure vanity to not except that you have to step down when the time has come.

Seriously, maybe YOU should think twice before posting a comment.

[JG52Uther]

It is quite normal in the UK for warbird pilots to be older.A lot of them are airline captains with thousands of hours experience.
You don't just jump into a warbird here,it takes years and years before you can do that,even if you own it.

[Sternjaeger II]

wow im no ghoul lol but i too was instantly frustrated by the clips that stopped recording, only because i could not see the extent of the damage to BBD.

After watching that last vid with the slow motion I have to say That might have been the most level headed bit of piloting i have seen in a while. :)

Stern or the other heavy iron pilots can correct me if im wrong here as I have no experience in these types of aircraft but looks to me like A second after the collision he jetted his canopy in preparation for what he may have to do (very quick thinking), and then spent several more seconds trying to get the nose up and as far as i could tell it never responded to what ever inputs he was giving it (possibly the control cables were cut as previously discussed) and then made yet another split second decision to get the H. E. double hockey sticks out of there.

It seemed like while she still had a bit of up attitude left in her he was still working the controls trying to get a response but then when she started to go nose down and she still wasn't responding he made the call to bail.

I guess the investigation will show what it shows but that's what my untrained saw in that last video anyway :)

WoW :) i bet his first Beer that night never tasted so good :)

Cheers and thanks for that last video whom ever made it and posted it :)

the first thing you want to do is jettison the canopy for two reasons: 1) you might have to jump at some point 2) if you topple the mustang once on the ground there's no way to jettison the canopy, so you can get stuck inside.

Jumping is considered the best option simply because in case of a belly landing you don't have any structure that can protect you in case you topple the plane (the armoured headrest used to work as anti-crush strut too), and it happened with other warbirds that pilots got crushed under the plane. So once again, play it safe, bail out (as long as you have altitude).

The plane had flaps down, that's the typical exit manoeuvre to prepare landing config (drop 10 degrees flaps then you bleed speed down to landing gear safe speed), so the plane probably managed to keep a relatively steady attitude, the pilot then jumped out (you normally kick the stick to get out, and if you still have control authority you'll just be thrown out, the problem is that you might hit the tail fin, as it actually happened). Once again, he did the right thing.

[Sternjaeger II]

I will remember your words when I smash my Ferrari in your frontyard when I am 64... I own it, I have logged hundreds of hours and it is ensured... blablabla...

It is pure vanity to not except that you have to step down when the time has come.

Seriously, maybe YOU should think twice before posting a comment.

as long as you have a good insurance I won't mind ;)

In order to fly such aeroplanes you need to pass serious medical tests, not like your driver license, and often it's the pilot himself that reckons he's too old to carry on.

For your information, in view of his advancing age, the pilot just sold the plane, he was doing his last performance with it (the P-51 was bound to Germany after Legends), and once again, it wasn't his fault, he acted according to the briefing.

You might have heard of Bob Hoover, Chuck Yeager and Clarence Bud Anderson, they all flew Mustangs well into their 70s and never had a problem.

I'm afraid that your assumptions are completely biased.

[Skiiwa]

I would Trust a 64 year old with 40yrs of flight time over a 25yr old with lighting reflexes anyday.....I would be willing to bet my life on it.......

[zoopyzook]

This was on my local news tonight with the pilot talking about the crash and the fact that he had to fly back home in his own aircraft afterwards!

http://www.itv.com/anglia/pilot-speaks-about-crash48488/

[Trumper]

This was on my local news tonight with the pilot talking about the crash and the fact that he had to fly back home in his own aircraft afterwards!

http://www.itv.com/anglia/pilot-speaks-about-crash48488/

Also on BBC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLQsJS7zQOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xctYWSuwoYA

[Viper2000]

as long as you have a good insurance I won't mind ;)

In order to fly such aeroplanes you need to pass serious medical tests, not like your driver license, and often it's the pilot himself that reckons he's too old to carry on.

For your information, in view of his advancing age, the pilot just sold the plane, he was doing his last performance with it (the P-51 was bound to Germany after Legends), and once again, it wasn't his fault, he acted according to the briefing.

You might have heard of Bob Hoover, Chuck Yeager and Clarence Bud Anderson, they all flew Mustangs well into their 70s and never had a problem.

I'm afraid that your assumptions are completely biased.

+1

It's not as though they hand out even class II medicals like sweeties.

In any case, you can tell that the man is as fit as a fiddle by the simple fact that he was able to get out of the aeroplane from such low altitude.

It's as easily done as some people probably think!

[Trumper]

A younger less experienced pilot may not have had the presence of mind to get out before it was too late.
There's good and bad young and old pilots,some pilots killed in warbirds weren't that old.
Ray Hanna was probably the best warbird display pilot before he died aged 77 of illness.
You have to judge each person on an individual basis,don't forget alot of 60+ year old people are now more like 45 year olds but with all the added experience.

[SEE]

'agism' is just another form of bigotry, what makes Zorins comments so laughable is the total lack of logic.

It wouldn't have mattered wether the P51 pilot was 20 or 100, the Skyraider would still have connected.

At 100ft above the ground you have to make a pretty damned fast decision regards saving your life at the expense of a plane or attempt to regain control in the certain knowledge that if its the wrong decision your family and friends will be attending your funeral.

[BigPickle]

'agism' is just another form of bigotry, what makes Zorins comments so laughable is the total lack of logic.

It wouldn't have mattered wether the P51 pilot was 20 or 100, the Skyraider would still have connected.


Yes but the 20 year old would only have had 3 years general flight experience and limited mustang flight experience to learn to deal with that sort of problem, were as the 60 year old could have had a possible 40 years.
I know which i would favour anyday.

[swiss]

'agism' is just another form of bigotry, what makes Zorins comments so laughable is the total lack of logic.

It wouldn't have mattered wether the P51 pilot was 20 or 100, the Skyraider would still have connected.

At 100ft above the ground you have to make a pretty damned fast decision regards saving your life at the expense of a plane or attempt to regain control in the certain knowledge that if its the wrong decision your family and friends will be attending your funeral.

And the fact, that age as a pure number means nothing.

I would have no problem finding 64year olds who can beat Zorin in any athletic discipline he can think of.

Of course you'll have no problems finding 40years old human wrecks either.

[bongodriver]

I can't believe this went down the 'age' road, the 64 year old pilot didn't cause the accident, the 64 year old had the presence of mind to act when a younger guy might have been wetting his pants, the 64 year old hit the tailplane on the way out and slammed into the ground under an emergency chute canopy (higher rate of descent) and was just bruised, that old man has my full respect.

[Al Schlageter]

Found this picture
A mate who restores warbirds thinks the control cables were severed

Have your mate look up where the control cables run on the P-51D. He might change his mind.

[bongodriver]

Have your mate look up where the control cables run on the P-51D. He might change his mind.

I doubt he would, that spot just behind the radiator outlet is where the cables run, and from the pictures you can see thats where it took the damage.

[Ze-Jamz]

i just hope they change their setup and make it safer rather than cram too much into too shorter time slots.

I have to say it was the one thing i didnt like, actually there were 2

1: You have airplanes taxiing past you after their flight while others are doing theirs, you want to hear what a lot of birds sound like in flight but in a lot of cases the sound is drowned out by aircraft taxiing in front of you which is pretty much the whole length of where spectators stand so it affects everyone

and

2: please commentators be quiet when aircraft are doing flybys, it seems that they are only quiet when its infront of the tower and forget that the spectators stand goes along a 300/400m stretch which have speakers all along it, if youve got a speaker anywhere near you, you tend to spend most of the time hoping they are not going to speak when you see your favorite bird making a dive..

this is my second time and like youve suggested they need and i do hope they revise what there doing..all said though i had a great day

[Al Schlageter]

I doubt he would, that spot just behind the radiator outlet is where the cables run, and from the pictures you can see thats where it took the damage.

You had better take a better look.:) The elevator cables run just above the longeron that runs the length of the fuselage and angle up from just behind the canopy towards the top of the fuselage just in front of the tail wheel. The rudder cables run just above the longeron and angle up slightly further aft and go to a mid point on the aft bulkhead.

[bongodriver]

You had better take a better look.:) The elevator cables run just above the longeron that runs the length of the fuselage and angle up from just behind the canopy towards the top of the fuselage just in front of the tail wheel. The rudder cables run just above the longeron and angle up slightly further aft and go to a mid point on the aft bulkhead.

and you need to wake up and smell the coffe, the impact was serious enough to rip a wing off a skyraider....do you really believe the damage was light?, it doesn't matter if the cables run higher in the fuselage, the internal structures like bulkheads would likely crumple and cables often run through bulkheads this would at least bind the cables, if the bulkhead shears that could easily cut the cables.

[#402FOX]

Experience won't get you anywhere, lower reaction times and physical limitations are well known facts of age and should lead to a flight ban. Simple as that.

He should use his experience to train new pilots and not hang on it for vanity's sake. Plus, he wrote off several million dollars there... not very smart.

Zorin

So many things are wrong with your statements on age:( maybe when your older yourself you may understand;)

[Trumper]

You had better take a better look.:) The elevator cables run just above the longeron that runs the length of the fuselage and angle up from just behind the canopy towards the top of the fuselage just in front of the tail wheel. The rudder cables run just above the longeron and angle up slightly further aft and go to a mid point on the aft bulkhead.
The truth will out in the future BUT i guess the P51 pilot would have more idea than any of us looking at a photo.
Even if a cable hadn't snapped it may be crushed out of shape or caught up on a damaged bit of internal metalwork,not only that the integrity of the structure maybe compromised and threatening to disintegrate.
I know something,he did the right thing,he is sleeping at home and not 6 feet under.

[HurricaneDriver]

I'm so glad the pilot got clear, but as a Brit ex-pat who loves warbirds I've been wanting to see the Big Beautiful Doll-schemed Mustang for years. It's the prettiest paint scheme of the era, and I liked this a/c especially as I'm in Melbourne Australia, and that particular ship was built in 1950 at Fishermans Bend, as a very limited run of the only P51s built outside of the US.

I'm sure they'll be another BBD paint schemed Mustang, but I especially loved the Melbourne element. I was in the UK last August, and missed seeing BBD flying due to family commitments, but I hoped to see her fly next year.

It's such a shame....

[ElAurens]

There is at least one BBD operating in the US.

[Regent45]

That's good news that both pilot servive their life.

[Trumper]

Good god,i thought there had been another one.This was 2 years ago maybe the title needs altering :)

[Osprey]

I know a Duxford pilot, he says that all of the pilots consider the blame to lay with the french pilot in the Skyraider who was 'showing off'. Word on the street was that once he got back into the mess a few of them wanted to thump him for it.

[Viking]

Wan to see one from yesterday?
Amazing how many idiots there are out there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YcnYe7MAUs&list=TLZkj4lEvjK1U

[MD_Titus]

christ, horrible. ludicrous maneuver with the guys weight that far out on the wing.