Kinect support for headtracking in birds of steel please

[guiltyspark]

:-P we know its possible with the hardware , dont mess this up gaijen this could be a huge huge game seller

[The M00ps]

I would be completely shocked to see this, but if they do, it will guarantee a day one purchase for me, if for no other reason than to just see this work.

Otherwise, I'm gonna sit it out for a few days -- maybe rent first. I still have a bad taste in my mouth from BoP.

[Rambo Rich 360]

I highly doubt you're going to see that. It just doesn't make too much sense from a technological or practical standpoint.

If you turn your head, you will no longer be looking at the monitor/screen, so that's not gonna work... Plus, i'm not sure how well the kinect would work in tracking ones head turning movements.

"Otherwise, I'm gonna sit it out for a few days -- maybe rent first. I still have a bad taste in my mouth from BoP. "

Really? Please let me know which WWII fighter games even come close to being good. BoP pretty much blows them all away.

Sure there's a few things that get on our nerves, but its a heckava lot better than the alternative.

[StiC]

I highly doubt you're going to see that. It just doesn't make too much sense from a technological or practical standpoint.

If you turn your head, you will no longer be looking at the monitor/screen, so that's not gonna work... Plus, i'm not sure how well the kinect would work in tracking ones head turning movements.

Not exactly true.

GT5 has head tracking using just the PS Eye and the Kinect is a lot more sophisticated and able to track more accurately.

None of the head tracking devices available would have you turn your head so far as to look away from the screen, including my mod which allows me to head track in BoP.

I for one would like to at least have the option to use head tracking.

Regards

StiC

[The M00ps]

If you turn your head, you will no longer be looking at the monitor/screen, so that's not gonna work... Plus, i'm not sure how well the kinect would work in tracking ones head turning movements.

TrackIR has been doing it on the PC for years.

Really? Please let me know which WWII fighter games even come close to being good. BoP pretty much blows them all away.

None, I'll grant you that. But BoP came so close, yet missed out on what it could/should have been. And all for the lack of a simple update or some very basic QA prior to release. And guess what -- Gaijin has pulled the same "publisher won't release the patch" stunt with Apache: Air Assault as they did with BoP. Go check out their forum.

They're building quite a negative reputation in my mind. All I'm saying is that I want to see a more polished product this time before I give them $60 more of my money.

[Cryptic Phant0m]

Headtracking does not really work for Flight games. How does one look behind them. :grin:

No in all actuality headtracking is a gimmick and I would rather the focused on the core game play.

[guiltyspark]

Headtracking does not really work for Flight games. How does one look behind them. :grin:

No in all actuality headtracking is a gimmick and I would rather the focused on the core game play.
herp derp
i dont understand how head tracking works so its a gimmick derp

[Gilly]

herp derp
i dont understand how head tracking works so its a gimmick derp

Branding someone a derp just because they have a different opinion or do not understand? Bit derp yourself.
Answer phantoms question then before being so condescending 'how does he look behind on a 2D single screen then using head tracking?'

[guiltyspark]

Branding someone a derp just because they have a different opinion or do not understand? Bit derp yourself.
Answer phantoms question then before being so condescending 'how does he look behind on a 2D single screen then using head tracking?'
If somebody is "informed enough" to make an opinion as extreme as "its a gimmick"

And is completely wrong in their assessment they are in every way opening themselves up to become derp.

Its VERY well known that headtracking is not only not a gimmick , but it was CREATED for the flight sim community.

when using head tracking you head is not moving in a 1:1 ratio with what you see on screen.

Which means turning your head just a LITTLE BIT will result in a view of your wing and if you move your head even further a veiw from behind you (if your plane has a view behind the seat like the p39.)


Its really not a difficult concept

here is a video demonstration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ

[StiC]

Headtracking does not really work for Flight games. How does one look behind them. :grin:

No in all actuality headtracking is a gimmick and I would rather the focused on the core game play.

I see what you are getting at.

Headtracking works because it does not track your head movements 1 to 1. You do not have to look behind you to check your six in game. You look slightly left to pan the camera over your left wing and check you six on the left side. At no time will you lose sight of the TV you are playing on.

Depending on how you play determines how gimmicky HT is. Arcade and Realistic players have a target camera. Sim players using a DS3 can map a stick to the camera view. Others, like me, use a flight stick and have to use the hat switch which only offers 90 degrees of movement. To me HT is an essential part of playing Sim and not a gimmick at all.

Regards

StiC

[Gilly]

I'm well aware of how it works and to be honest I like the idea. I do think it's limited however by using a single screen- wraparound or even 3 screens then I think it's an fantastic creation. Plus as your video shows its the head that has to move which isn't natural as your eyes have to stay looking at the screen when I real life the head is stationary and the eyes move unless to look over your shoulder. My point was dont be so dismissive of someone opinion just because it differs. Phantom jusifies his 'gimmick' line by saying he'd rather see more attention to core gameplay and I agree 100%. Yes it would be nice to have all the bells and whistles but after all it's a game. It'll never be akin to the real thing. Just as people spend money buying fantastic wheels and peddles for GT5 I'd rather use the two sets of actual wheels and peddles I have outside- ones attached to a BMW 530 and the other a Golf GTI. The fact I don't have a setup for GT5 does not detract in anyway from my game experience. What I'm saying is that head tracking is gimmicky, nice idea in theory but gimmicky all the same just as a steering wheel and pedals is for GT5. It's not critical to the actual game and no great loss if it's not included.

[guiltyspark]

I'm well aware of how it works and to be honest I like the idea. I do think it's limited however by using a single screen- wraparound or even 3 screens then I think it's an fantastic creation. Plus as your video shows its the head that has to move which isn't natural as your eyes have to stay looking at the screen when I real life the head is stationary and the eyes move unless to look over your shoulder. My point was dont be so dismissive of someone opinion just because it differs. Phantom jusifies his 'gimmick' line by saying he'd rather see more attention to core gameplay and I agree 100%. Yes it would be nice to have all the bells and whistles but after all it's a game. It'll never be akin to the real thing. Just as people spend money buying fantastic wheels and peddles for GT5 I'd rather use the two sets of actual wheels and peddles I have outside- ones attached to a BMW 530 and the other a Golf GTI. The fact I don't have a setup for GT5 does not detract in anyway from my game experience. What I'm saying is that head tracking is gimmicky, nice idea in theory but gimmicky all the same just as a steering wheel and pedals is for GT5. It's not critical to the actual game and no great loss if it's not included.only it takes little effort to apply this into the games code , thus the "threat" to the core gameplay is not viable excuse to call it a gimmick when its the most valuble control method that comes to mind when in a dogfight bar none.

Like i said , you dont understand how it works enough to accept it, its a completely natural input method and it should be held as a priority over other things by a wide margin

[Gilly]

I see what you are getting at.

Headtracking works because it does not track your head movements 1 to 1. You do not have to look behind you to check your six in game. You look slightly left to pan the camera over your left wing and check you six on the left side. At no time will you lose sight of the TV you are playing on.

Depending on how you play determines how gimmicky HT is. Arcade and Realistic players have a target camera. Sim players using a DS3 can map a stick to the camera view. Others, like me, use a flight stick and have to use the hat switch which only offers 90 degrees of movement. To me HT is an essential part of playing Sim and not a gimmick at all.

Regards


StiC

Fair points well made. Though i would in defence say that the camera track in arcade and realistic does the job of tracking your target just as you naturally would do and recreates this as best as possible on a 2D screen. I use a stick myself in sim but that's more for ease of use than anything else as the hat switch sits more comfortably with my gorilla fingers. That said sim has the benefit of zoom facility which itself is un-sim like!!
At the end of the day I don't care about the tinsel I'd rather the game itself is solid and enjoyable, everything else is just gravy.

[Gilly]

Like i said , you dont understand how it works enough to accept it, its a completely natural input method and it should be held as a priority over other things by a wide margin

I don't understand it!!! I'm an owner and director of a IT and communications company that specialises in 3D modelling, eye tracking and virtual reality so no I guess I wouldn't would I?
It's not natural to turn your head to look left or right, it's your eyes that move. As for priority it isn't even by a small margin. As I've said nice for yourself if they do but not critical at all to the overall game at all.

[guiltyspark]

I don't understand it!!! I'm an owner and director of a IT and communications company that specialises in 3D modelling, eye tracking and virtual reality so no I guess I wouldn't would I?
It's not natural to turn your head to look left or right, it's your eyes that move. As for priority it isn't even by a small margin. As I've said nice for yourself if they do but not critical at all to the overall game at all.

well thats funny because after 200 hours of flying simulators with track ir i find it completely natural and more benifitial to my ability to fight than any other thing in the game.

seems like you are completely unqualified for your job if you think such technology is not useful or "unnatural"

also if you are unable to look at one point on a screen and turn your head and keep focus on that one point then you are physically or quite possibly mentally disabled.

[Gilly]

well thats funny because after 200 hours of flying simulators with track ir i find it completely natural and more benifitial to my ability to fight than any other thing in the game.

seems like you are completely unqualified for your job if you think its such a technology is not useful or "un natural"

also if you are unable to look at one point and turn your head and keep focus on that one point then you are physically disabled.

So let it be funny for you. I find it funny that you log hours of flying pixels around a screen. I haven't at any point said it's not useful, it's just not critical. If so then I must be as you say unqualified for my job, I better pack in now and retire...no wait we turnover £40million a year so I must be doing something right- oh yeah not wasting my life
staring at a virtual world that doesn't exist. And what has physical disablity to do with it save for you trying to get a discreet insult in. Part of what we do is enable such disadvantaged people to use computers by using such things as head or eye tracking depending upon there level of mobility. I therefore find your disability line not only offensive but to be honest disgusting.

[guiltyspark]

So let it be funny for you. I find it funny that you log hours of flying pixels around a screen. I haven't at any point said it's not useful, it's just not critical. If so then I must be as you say unqualified for my job, I better pack in now and retire...no wait we turnover £40million a year so I must be doing something right- oh yeah not wasting my life staring at a virtual world that doesn't exist. And what has physical disablity to do with it save for you trying to get a discreet insult in.
im not trying to be insulting

you literally have to be physically or mentally disabled to not support track IR in a flight simulator

also

"oh yeah not wasting my life staring at a virtual world that doesn't exist"

"Herp derp im not REALLY arguing with somebody on a video game forum , its all just a fantasy and in reality im working hard at the office selling products i hate and dont believe in."

[Slothboy]

im not trying to be insulting

you literally have to be physically or mentally disabled to not support track IR in a flight simulator

also

"oh yeah not wasting my life staring at a virtual world that doesn't exist"

"Herp derp im not REALLY arguing with somebody on a video game forum , its all just a fantasy and in reality im working hard at the office selling products i hate and dont believe in."

Spark, seriously, you don't need to be insulting to have a debate with someone. I realize this is the internet but we can still maintain a certain level of respect and decorum. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make them mentally disabled. If you can only "win" a debate by using insults then that implies that either your position is weak or you are not capable of making logical arguments. It reflects poorly on you and your argument.

If everyone agreed on everything all the time we would never make any progress as a society. Look at it as an opportunity to convert someone to your way of thinking without alienating them or putting them on the defensive. I dare you to respond to counter arguments without insult. double dog dare

[Gilly]

im not trying to be insulting

you literally have to be physically or mentally disabled to not support track IR in a flight simulator

also

"oh yeah not wasting my life staring at a virtual world that doesn't exist"

"Herp derp im not REALLY arguing with somebody on a video game forum , its all just a fantasy and in reality im working hard at the office selling products i hate and dont believe in."

Think Slothboy has covered most of what I would have said save for the fact that you state now it's an argument and I dont believe and hate the products I sell. Pray tell at what point have I said I hate or don't believe in head tracking?? In fact Ive stated I like it. What I was saying and I will reiterate it for you here seeing as you obviously didn't read it- it's not critical for the game. That is all I have said on the matter. What is more obvious is the fact you can't have a debate on the subject nor accept or respect other peoples viewpoints should they differ from your own.

[bobbysocks]

im not trying to be insulting.



the F you arent! you are being down right insulting. someone made light of your toys so you threw a tantrum. you are the one who isnt listening or understanding. no one said that track IR wouldnt be ok. someone merely stated their preference that in the limited programing restrictions for the game, and the space required for configuring Track IR, they preferred it be put to use to make a better overall game. and I agree with that! and instead of graciously educating that person as to why they maybe wrong you resort to name calling. then, when one of the most respected members of this forum calls you on it in polite manner. you tastelessly attack him with comments about him having a physical or mental challenge? maybe your logging of long hours with your flight simulator has become detrimental to your social development. if you wish to get along in this community you are going have to show all members respect. if that is too difficult for you to manage then i suggest finding another place to hang out.

[StiC]

Though i would in defence say that the camera track in arcade and realistic does the job of tracking your target just as you naturally would do and recreates this as best as possible on a 2D screen.

I couldn't agree more. I use this when playing Arcade & Realistic and it is essential to my game play , inept as it is. When this feature is not available though I need something quick, accurate and easy to use to replace it.

I use a stick myself in sim but that's more for ease of use than anything else as the hat switch sits more comfortably with my gorilla fingers. That said sim has the benefit of zoom facility which itself is un-sim like!!

What method do you use to track targets? and do you find it lacking in any way? Valid point on the zoom, but I do like using it when targeting specific components.

At the end of the day I don't care about the tinsel I'd rather the game itself is solid and enjoyable, everything else is just gravy.

Understandable.

StiC

[StiC]

im not trying to be insulting


Being the father of, and raising an autistic child I found your outburst to be very insulting.

Bobbysocks spoke the rest of my mind.

StiC

[guiltyspark]

Being the father of, and raising an autistic child I found your outburst to be very insulting.

Bobbysocks spoke the rest of my mind.

StiC
Im sorry for your loss :(

It isnt my fault that the first thing that jumps to your mind when "mentally disabled" is mentioned is your son. Seems like there are some personal issues you need to work out.

Anyway.

I walked into this thread expecting widespread support for an idea that is so benifitial to the flight sim genre it is completely mindbending to as how anyone who realistically calls themself a fan of any il2 game , console or pc ,
can object to it on the means that "bu if u look at da scren and terun ur head it dont wurk"

I tried explaining why its important for the game , but was still met with logic i could equate to an old man refusing to use the internet because its "hocus pocus mumbo jumbo"

Fact . birds of steel will be a simulator type game
fact . Head tracking not only GREATLY benifits the gamers by giving them extreme situational awareness , but it could also free up some buttons to use for other functions.
Fact. You HAVE TO BE dense to refuse these facts and try to pass it off as an opinion to damage control your own ignorance on the topic.

I wasnt trying to be insulting , but now i am very much so being insulting , you have to be of limited intellectual function to disagree with this feature. I could equate this as saying cockpits are bells and whistles because i would rather the developers work on the "core game".

its just useless tripe trying to convince yourself that head tracking isnt needed for this game when its completely possible with the hardware available

[Rambo Rich 360]

I must stand corrected. I didn't really know about Track IR or other products. Seems like a pretty decent and cool product.

Perhaps it would be a good add-on for Birds of Steel, but its not a make or break for me. If they want to add support for it, that's fine and dandy, but i'll be purchasing the game (probably even a backup) regardless.

[StiC]

Seems like there are some personal issues you need to work out.

I guess that wasn't meant to be insulting either.

The only personal issue I have is with people who resort to personal attacks when they can no longer convincingly argue their side of a debate. I defend the same side of this issue you do, but I will not support your views of people who will not, for their own reasons, accept head tracking as a meaningful method of input and immersion.

I don't argue my case because I think Gilly and Rambo are wrong, but because it is something I believe in. If I can convey my beliefs in a public forum, in a convincing way, perhaps we will be gather enough support for head tracking to make it happen. Insults, as we've seen, just serve to drive people away from your cause.

Regards

StiC

[Davedog74]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STIvNjWobzA&feature=related

[flynlion]

I have to admit that after watching Guilty Spark's link, I think that head tracking in a flight game is something I'd really like to try. I won't comment on his other "arguments".

[StiC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STIvNjWobzA&feature=related

and what does this have to do with head tracking and who asked you for your two cents worth! jk

lol I imagine this is just how it looks to someone on the outside of this discussion.

[StiC]

I found this to show we already have the tech for head tracking.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEszkIhrzfE

[bobbysocks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[BRIGGBOY]

Headtracking does not really work for Flight games. How does one look behind them. :grin:

No in all actuality headtracking is a gimmick and I would rather the focused on the core game play.

not true and absolute bs. trackir5 has made playing CLOD far more immersive and not to mention easier. if the devs can some way implement head tracking into BoS then i will be a very happy camper. however when i first used it i did think it was bollocks, but now ive given it more time and got used to it i would never go back to flying without it. i think every flight sim/game should have some kind of headtracking implemented.

[McQ59]

With or without all the state-of-the-art gadgets money can buy, I guess you still have to manouver the ac and have a set of skills to draw from. I'm all for tech that can make it easier to get the kills or get me out of trouble, but it is not in any way crucial to me when it comes to buying BoS. If I was to wait until these games will be absolute perfect to buy them, I'll propably be stardust on the screen...
So Gaijin... Bring it on with or without. Perfection is a hype anyway ;-)

And I totally agree with the guys who damn foruminsults and personal caracteristic bs. Flaming should only occur in-game imo. Be excellent to each other chaps. It's real easy.

[guiltyspark]

not true and absolute bs. trackir5 has made playing CLOD far more immersive and not to mention easier. if the devs can some way implement head tracking into BoS then i will be a very happy camper. however when i first used it i did think it was bollocks, but now ive given it more time and got used to it i would never go back to flying without it. i think every flight sim/game should have some kind of headtracking implemented.

this is the only issue with head tracking , it takes about 1-3 hours to get used to it , but once you do it will feel like you are actually in the cockpit of an aircraft and it will come second nature

[Cryptic Phant0m]

I stand corrected after watching some vids, I could see how a lot of people would really like Head-Tracking and more power to them.:grin:

I am not trying to be little your love for Head Tracking, so I am sorry if thats how I came across to you. (Peace?)

If BoS has it I will try it, but like I said before TO ME and TO ME only I find it to be just frosting and not really necessary.

P.S.
Having an Autistic Child is not a loss!

Autism is a disorder of neural development that causes impaired social interaction and communication, and some characteristics are repetitive behaviors and restricted behaviors.

I work with these type of individuals and many others with similar disorders and they are most definitely not a loss!

Please respect them and their families.

[StiC]

@Cryptic Phantom

Thank You

[BRIGGBOY]

first of all in no way shape or form has anyone made fun of people with autism and i dont condone anyone that does. my sister works with adults with learning difficulties so i know quite abit about it from what she has told me. on the otherhand i to can see that headtracking is candy and there are alot of other things that come first: ie fm and dm and game modes. especially when you have zeros flying with 1 wing.

[trk29]

herp derp
i dont understand how head tracking works so its a gimmick derp

Why are you posting questions about a game that the developers will not read on a forum that they don't visit about a game that 1C is not publishing derp?


"bu if u look at da scren and terun ur head it dont wurk"



How can anybody believe you don't want to be insulting with comments like this?

"Bu if you as a qestin the devs wil anser it"

Im sorry for your loss :(



Are you insulting here? Because it is not a loss.

I wasnt trying to be insulting , but now i am very much so being insulting


#1 Reason for you not be in here then. If you need someone to show you the door just let me know.

To tell you the truth why don't you go to Gaijins forum and post there about this game since you can not hold dialouge here without offending someone.

Here is the proper channel.

http://forum.gaijinent.com/index.php?/forum/23-birds-of-steel/

[SEE]

I am not sure how well headtracking would work in a console but as someone who flies full real on CloD and IL1946 it is a fundamental part of my set up. You have to use it and fly in pit view to understand and appreciate why many flyers consider it essential. Its not just the added immersion, you have to continually monitor your instruments and scan the skies around you intuitively and easily.

Headtracking is really for Cockpit view flyers. I doubt many who fly in open view would find it usefull (if not a disadvantage) without the cockpit and gunsight to act as a reference for centring ones head in combat.

I would welcome any attempt to give enthusiasts a choice but, given that Headtracking relies on a software interface that users are able to customise and set up to suit themselves, I wonder how well it would work in a console environment? The developer has to come up with a uniform profile to suit everyone. How many degrees of movement would it support and could a console cope with the calculations regards the polygons that render the cockpit for a wide range of viewing angles?

If it were possible, then I hope MP will have a cockpit only difficulty option as, even with headtracking, someone flying with an open view will always have a visual advantage.

If the tecnology is there and the implementation feasibe, then it should be included.

[McQ59]

@Cryptic Phant0m

Respect