HE-111 is a glider

[jf1981]

Hi

I discovered the gliding capability of HE-111 while having failed both engines through inadapted cooling (sigh).

Its gliding aptitude is unusually good, I expect a FM issue. It goes like a bird without any power.

[Sven]

Have you seen the size of the wings?

[jf1981]

Hi
I mean the friction are very small, it keeps its speed & alt for very long time.

[Redroach]

yeah, "a very long time" is certainly regarded as a most legitimate measurement nowadays (see various other threads). This sentence surely deserves a major investigation of the whole development team! Quick! :rolleyes:

[jf1981]

yeah, "a very long time" is certainly regarded as a most legitimate measurement nowadays (see various other threads). This sentence surely deserves a major investigation of the whole development team! Quick! :rolleyes:

Go on measure for yourself, it's simply not realistic.

Report back the results if you want to show the way. Have'nt done that yet, I'll wait till the games get patched to a level where it needs fine-tune before starting to post comments again. There is simply too much work to do on the sim now. I think they'll be dealing with all sorts of things so in few weeks / months time, we'll see certainly quite big difference with now.

[Korn]

You're sending him to measure after you report it? Why didn't you measure it before reporting the issue? It's not hard, just feather your props and see how many km you can glide from 1km and you'll get the glide ratio. Fyi a modern sailplane easily tops 60.

The He111 should glide pretty damn well since it's got very big wings, in fact its wing area is over 50% bigger than say the B25, which is in fact heavier.

[jf1981]

I just mean to me it does not look like a normal behaviour thought I have not measured.

[KG26_Alpha]

Unfortunately........

Your post is typical of many others in the past regarding aircraft behaviour be it FM, DM or WP.

You could be right, but you will at least have to bring something here other than "its not normal" perhaps..... load out, weather, altitude, speed etc etc etc

No one for sure can say either way what's right and wrong regarding characteristics of particular aircraft in certain circumstances as there are too many variables attributing to different behaviour due to the flight conditions.

Lets just say someone using pure mathematics could "guesstimate" the glide slope and plot a chart.

But another "chart monkey" will come along to disprove it.

Meanwhile...........

Here's some He111 wings minus control surfaces till the next update comes along........... :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/DSCF2186.jpg

[jf1981]

flying low (100 m alt) without prop, full load, loosing speed below 200 km/h very slowly, exact measurement I did'nt take note.
Kept flying few hundreds of meter.

Honestly I expected it to fall down, I'm surprised to see it gliding so well.

KG Alpha, I'd expect more understanding from you, I'm just astonished by the HE-111, did I mention something else ? I'm not policeman reporting any fault of the game. Just mentionned I was wondering why that happens, be it normal I would just notice a remarkably well flying aeroplane, nothing wrong.

[Kongo-Otto]

flying low (100 m alt) without prop, full load, loosing speed below 200 km/h very slowly, exact measurement I did'nt take note.
Kept flying few hundreds of meter.

Honestly I expected it to fall down, I'm surprised to see it gliding so well.

KG Alpha, I'd expect more understanding from you, I'm just astonished by the HE-111, did I mention something else ? I'm not policeman reporting any fault of the game. Just mentionned I was wondering why that happens, be it normal I would just notice a remarkably well flying aeroplane, nothing wrong.

Well reporting anything is the source of proper testing.
Well did yo mentioned anything else? Yes you did!

See here:
Hi
Its gliding aptitude is unusually good, I expect a FM issue. It goes like a bird without any power.

Well you mentioned a FM Issue without anykind of proof or proper test.
Thats Kindergarten Talk at least.
Now go back and watch Ice Road Truckers!

[SQB]

You guys are being a wee bit harsh today, did the economy start to crash again or something?

If it feels unnatural to him, and you are playing the game, why not test it out for yourself and see if it feels odd to you.

most of us don't play the game with a stopwatch lying around to record everything, its just a curious little thing he spotted....

:rolleyes:

[jf1981]

HE-111

1) 27 secs for decreasing speed from 300 to 200 km/h at constant alt 500 m.

2) Descending from 500 m to zero measured at 160 km/h (just above stalling speed) : 2'10"
Gliding ratio approx 1/11
Descent ratio 3,8 m/s

3) Same as 2) measured at 200 km/h : 1'37"
Gliding ratio approx 1/11
Descent ratio 5,1 m/s

4) Same as 2) measured at 250 km/h : 1'07"
Gliding ratio approx 1/9
Descent ratio 7,5 m/s

Bleinheim IV
1) 25"
2) Glide at 150 km/h, 500m-zero 1'45"
Gliding ratio approx 1/9
Descent ratio 4,8 m/s

Spitfire
1) 20"
2) Glide at 150 km/h, 500m-zero 1'50"
Gliding ratio approx 1/9,5
Descent ratio 4,5 m/s

BR.20
3) Glide at 200 km/h, 500m-zero 1'15"
Gliding ratio approx 1/8
Descent ratio 6,7 m/s

4) Glide at 250 km/h, 500m-zero 50'
Gliding ratio approx 1/7
Descent ratio 10 m/s

JU-88
3) Glide at 220 km/h, 500m-zero 55'
Gliding ratio approx 1/8
Descent ratio 6,7 m/s

4) Glide at 250 km/h, 500m-zero 50'
Gliding ratio approx 1/7
Descent ratio 10 m/s

G.50
3) Glide at 200 km/h, 500m-zero 56'
Gliding ratio approx 1/6
Descent ratio 8,9 m/s

Gliding at constant speed as smoothly as possible, power off. Fuel full, no bombs.
Rate of descent is maybe more interesting than gliding ratio since I measured it as close from stalling speed, unfavour of gliding ratio I assume.

[janpitor]

Hi,

If your second test was at 200kph, the gliding ratio vould be cca 1/14, at 300kph 1/20...this is possible. B737 has a gliding ratio of 1/26 for example.

[Furio]

I was writing this post, but then jf1981 beat me.

Saying it respectfully, we all could make an effort in better understandings what we are talking about (and correct me if I’m mistaken). For example, it’s not correct to say that the He111 “should glide well” because of its big wing area. Wing area has to do with minimum sink rate, but does very little for efficiency (lift over drag). For example, a Boeing 707 has an excellent glide ratio, in the order of 20:1, roughly twice the average light plane (and the He, probably). However, it has also a high wing loading, and its best glide speed is measured in mach numbers. For this same reason, modern sailplanes use water ballast. At higher weight, they have a higher best l:d speed.
Now, how should we measure the efficiency of any bird? First of all, we should know both the best glide and minimum sink speeds. If we don’t know them, we can guess the better glide at 1.3 times the clean stall speed (that varies with weight, of course), while minimum sink is a little slower. If we are flying at higher speed, some time will be needed to lose excess speed before starting descent. Once trimmed for better glide, we can easily made a rough estimates by just looking at a stopwatch for a couple of minutes, noting speed and altimeter readings. No particular precision is needed, but we must keep speed very carefully. Then some simple math can give us useful numbers. But beware: making the test away from best glide speed will give very different results. Above a certain speed, we’ll measure dive speeds.

Now, jg1981 made some reasonable tests. If you look at them, you’ll notice he found an l.d. of “around” 10 for all types, which is consistent with my guess above (comparing He111 to the B707), and is consistent with the average aspect ratio of WWII wings. With some allowance, we can say that CoD is accurate for all the type tested.

[jf1981]

[...]
Another interesting post, thanks.

Regarding HE-111 I could not measure the glide improvement above stall speed. The margin is probably small.

[mazex]

Hi,

If your second test was at 200kph, the gliding ratio vould be cca 1/14, at 300kph 1/20...this is possible. B737 has a gliding ratio of 1/26 for example.

I'm lost here - you claim a B737 has a glide ratio of 26:1 with engines off?

Read about the "Gimli glider" incident (link below, interesting read!) which was an accident where a real 767 lost both engines at high altitude and had to try this in reality. A good thing the pilot was an experienced glider pilot... The glide ratio in reality was at 12:1 in that case even though most modern air liners are in the 16-18 range according to the "specs"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

So 26:1 for 737 with engines off sounds very high to me...

[Boogz]

B737 has a gliding ratio of 1/26 for example.

Where did you get that number? For reference, the Gimli Glider (B767) had a glide ratio of approximately 12:1 with engines out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

[janpitor]

It was only a number I remembered from a long time ago...but it seems I am mistaken. On several webpages they state it is 22/1 on a 737NG.

[jf1981]

HE-111 is indeed the best one in this aspect of all planes I tested. Meanwhile I did some measurements, you could find that in a post I updated a bit up to this one.

Regards

[Hunden]

Well reporting anything is the source of proper testing.
Well did yo mentioned anything else? Yes you did!

See here:


Well you mentioned a FM Issue without anykind of proof or proper test.
Thats Kindergarten Talk at least.
Now go back and watch Ice Road Truckers!

Wow a lot experts and a lot of a## holes here give the guy a break

[kristorf]

Wow a lot experts and a lot of a## holes here give the guy a break

+1

Sooooo many experts, amazing how many He111 pilots there are still living.

[bongodriver]

col123 is quite right, how did anyone deduce 'big' wings = good gliding performance? every sailplane I know has high aspect ratio long and skinny wings, sounds to me like the 111 has an FM bug if it is gliding so well, those big wings should create huge amounts of induced drag.

[Furio]

col123 is quite right, how did anyone deduce 'big' wings = good gliding performance? every sailplane I know has high aspect ratio long and skinny wings, sounds to me like the 111 has an FM bug if it is gliding so well, those big wings should create huge amounts of induced drag.

He111 wing is not that “big”. It’s aspect ratio is 5.9, the Bf109 being pretty close at 6.

[bongodriver]

He111 wing is not that “big”. It’s aspect ratio is 5.9, the Bf109 being pretty close at 6.

Maybe so, but a typical sailplane aspect ratio is anywhere between 15 to 25 ish and have narrow chord, the 111 has a very wide chord that is what I mean by 'big', by no means a glider wing

[jf1981]

As you see even a casual observation [...]

Stanger, I guess you did not get that post #12 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=283431&postcount=12) it's been updated with some measurements & some calculation.

[Furio]

Maybe so, but a typical sailplane aspect ratio is anywhere between 15 to 25 ish and have narrow chord, the 111 has a very wide chord that is what I mean by 'big', by no means a glider wing

You’re right. What I mean is that the He111 has an average aspect ratio for WWII combat types, and this is consistent with an average l:d. Latest tests (edited post ≠ 12) by jf1981 really do show some suspicious numbers. One that looks odd to me is the same l:d at 160 km/h. (where minimum sink is registered) and at 200 km/h. Another is the bad performance of Ju88... Odd.

[GnigruH]

I love how this thread delivered.
I LAUGHED OUT LOUD reading it.
A guy reports something suspicious, then gets bashed a little too hard for not including his test results.
Some 'experts' respond with attitude like: 'you be noob, das game ist flawless', some include deep aero-dynamical evidence like: 'it has big wings, you noob'.
Priceless.

TBH I've seen aeroplanes flying quite good with no wings in this flawless game, nothing is going to surprise me after that.
I bet that after the game becomes playable more ppl will finally realize that fm is a bad joke in many many aspects.

[II./JG1_Wilcke]

Suggested by my CFI, retired Navy Test Pilot, NAWS China Lake.

A good guess for single-engine light (sic...for a twin you have more issues) aircraft is Vx, the best rate of climb speed. But for a better answer:

Flying in calm air, with the engine at idle.

Record your airspeed as and vertical speed vs for at least 3 points - near stall, Vy, Va perhaps. For this purpose, you can just take the ratio of vertical speed to air speed to be L/D.

... Technically you'd need the horizontal component of the airspeed vector, but with realistic errors airspeed will be ok. If you insist, you can correct your airspeed by the factor sqrt( 1- (vs/as)^2 ) assuming of course vs<=as. For as/vs = 2, ( you are descending at 1/2 the airspeed! ) this factor is 0.86 so you can see it's not a big deal.

Given vs in ft/min, as in miles/hour
( mph * 88 = ft/min )

I'll make up some numbers:

VS AS L/D = 88·AS/VS

500 45 7.92

750 90 10.56

1000 110 9.68

If that's still not good enough.. There is a simple formula to create the parabolic approximation f(x) = -ax^2 + bx + c for 3 points... but if you are lazy as I am and/or have more than three points you can use this handy online polynomial regression calculator:

http://www.xuru.org/rt/PR.asp#CopyPaste

Putting in the above numbers, I get f(x) = -a·x2 + b·x + c = -1.273504274·10-3 x2 + 2.097008547·10-1 x + 2.042307692

The best L/D, can be determined by differentiating the above and solving for f'(x) = 0. In general form, I get b/2a, or 82 MPH.

Cool beans.

Any one have a POH for the He-111?

[jf1981]

Hi Wilcke
Could you please add definition of Va, Vx, Vy and POH for me ? Thanks.
I'm not clear with it.

[bongodriver]

Hi Wilcke
Could you please add definition of Va, Vx, Vy and POH for me ? Thanks.
I'm not clear with it.

Vy= best rate of climb speed

Vx= best angle of climb speed

Va= manouver speed (memory is fuzzy on this but I think it is the maximum speed at which an abrupt control input can be made)

POH= pilots operating handbook (pilots manual)

[mazex]

Vy= best rate of climb speed

Vx= best angle of climb speed

Va= manouver speed (memory is fuzzy on this but I think it is the maximum speed at which an abrupt control input can be made)

POH= pilots operating handbook (pilots manual)

There is only one interesting speed - Vne ;)

[bongodriver]

There is only one interesting speed - Vne ;)

I tend to be flying at Mmo most of the time :wink: in real life that is.

[SlipBall]

Hi

I discovered the gliding capability of HE-111 while having failed both engines through inadapted cooling (sigh).

Its gliding aptitude is unusually good, I expect a FM issue. It goes like a bird without any power.



All aircraft can glide even the space shuttle...some jets are not so good at it.:grin:

[Blackdog_kt]

Va= manouver speed (memory is fuzzy on this but I think it is the maximum speed at which an abrupt control input can be made)


You are 99% correct, it's the indicated airspeed limit for full control deflection. Above that speed, using full control deflection can overstress the airframe.