What aircraft would a Battle for Moscow senario need?

[Rather peeved]

I'm not too hot on this part of history? who would know?
Can we get a bit of list going of which aircraft we think could appear with this add on?

[wannabetheace]

I'm not too hot on this part of history? who would know?
Can we get a bit of list going of which aircraft we think could appear with this add on?

MiGs
LaGGs
Yaks
Polikarpovs
Tus
ILs

[Ali Fish]

the one and only sturmovik ! cant wait for that tbh, tanks can fly !

[Capt Backasswards]

http://junebarbarossa.devhub.com/blog/archive-200912/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Moscow


A couple of good links.

[Rather peeved]

MiGs
LaGGs
Yaks
Polikarpovs
Tus
ILs

yeah - but which Yaks and Las?

early Yaks and Las suck. late Yaks and Las are beautiful.

Also - which German aircraft? is it just the Bf 109 E again?

Also - could we see lend lease aicraft such as tomahawks, cannon armed spits and hurricanes and cobras?


Howabout the Fliesser Storch etc.

[Ali Fish]

OT but OnT

:-x i wish this future update thread was about the pacific era !

[wannabetheace]

yeah - but which Yaks and Las?

early Yaks and Las suck. late Yaks and Las are beautiful.


Howabout the Fliesser Storch etc.

I guess only yak-1, and LaGG1 and LaGG3, no Las for sure.

[BadAim]

Also - which German aircraft? is it just the Bf 109 E again?

Also - could we see lend lease aicraft such as tomahawks, cannon armed spits and hurricanes and cobras?


Howabout the Fliesser Storch etc.

There would be some Emils but most units would have Friedrichs, and there might have been some lend lease planes for the Russians but I'm not sure where and how many.

The Storch would have definitely been around as well as the FW189, and the Ju52, and dozens of other bit players.

The Freidrich pretty much Pwns everything in the sky between the beginning of Barbarossa, and the Battle for Moscow. (assuming it's flown right)

[Pudfark]

Knot to sound like sour grapes....but some that work like they are supposed too.

[csThor]

For Germany it would probably be

Bf 109 E-7 (as fighter-bomber)
Bf 109 F-2
Bf 110 C/D/E (fighter-bomber and strategic recon)
Ju 88 A-4/5
Ju 88 D (strategic recon)
He 111 H-3 / H-6
Hs 126
Hs 123
Ju 87 B-2
Ju 52
Fi 156

For the VVS

I-16 (ShKAS-armed types)
I-153 (ShKAS-armed types)
LaGG-3
MiG-3
Yak-1
Pe-2
Il-2
+ more that I can't remember now

[JG53Frankyboy]

LW
Bf109F-2/-4, Bf109E-7/B, Bf110D/E, Hs123 ( :) ), Ju87B-2/D-1, He111H-6, Ju88A-5/-4, Hs126

VVS
Yak1, MiG3, LaGG3,P-40B/C, I16, I153, Il2 (only singleseaters !), DB3, SB2, Pe2, Pe3, R5/R-Z

[Seeker]

You're all missing the Spitfire.

I sure as hell don't want to spend another six years stuck in a Yak labelled washing machine waiting for the next big thing in flight sims.

[csThor]

No Bf 109 F-4, AFAIK no unit engaged in Taifun was equipped with them.

[TeeJay82]

could we see lend lease aicraft such as tomahawks, cannon armed spits and hurricanes and cobras?

Dear god yes, gimme the A-20c

[csThor]

If you're lucky you might get some early Tomahawks for the latter stages of the soviet counter-offensive. No cannon-armed Spits, no P-39, no A-20s ... Not for Taifun.

[Rather peeved]

I would point out that if the flagship aircraft for the next installment of this game is the IL2 it could pose some problems.

The IL2 is obviously a ground attack aircraft, and most of us can't currently fly over ground in Cliffs of Dover thanks to stutters.

could be a minor issue. :)

[JG53Frankyboy]

No Bf 109 F-4, AFAIK no unit engaged in Taifun was equipped with them.

i dont care if there will be no F-4 in "Battle for Moskau" , as long there will be the FieldMod posibility for the F-2 to arm it with a MG151/20 ;)

i see, for our "anglo-american" friends it realy would have been better if 1C would have choosen something from the MTO as next AdOn Battlescenario :D
or at least something from later EasternFront ;)
Kuban Spring 43 would have been my choice for that:
the Kuban map is still one of my favorites from classic IL2. So Shipattacks would also be possible....and well, a lot of 'wanted' aircraft there: Fw190 (even they were as groundattack planes there), Lend and lease Spitfire V, P-39.
But perhaps too much totaly new ones..... with the early Moskau scenario at least the LW ones are , some more some less, modifications of the BoB LW ones

at least the P-40B/C should be made flyable in the Moskau scenario, as it came in service in october 1941 around Moskau.

[Feathered_IV]

Personal must-haves are the Sturmy, Hs123, Polikarpovs 153 and 16. Plus the Storch and Po-2. Looking forward to trying to land a dangerously overladen He-111 on the ice covered strip of Gumrak one day too!

[TeeJay82]

i dont care if there will be no F-4 in "Battle for Moskau" , as long there will be the FieldMod posibility for the F-2 to arm it with a MG151/20 ;)

Amen to that,and 20mm Wingcannons is also a must. And get rid of those useless MG17`s and gimme MOOOAR ammo for the nose 151..

but :/ i guess the 151 pods was not avaliable until the f4... sigh, We need the f4 :P

[TeeJay82]

If you're lucky you might get some early Tomahawks for the latter stages of the soviet counter-offensive. No cannon-armed Spits, no P-39, no A-20s ... Not for Taifun.

Ill take a p40 over any early war russian fighter anyday, i find the .50`s to be the most average balanced round in the game. Ammo vs Stopping power wise

[addman]

Personal must-haves are the Sturmy, Hs123, Polikarpovs 153 and 16. Plus the Storch and Po-2. Looking forward to trying to land a dangerously overladen He-111 on the ice covered strip of Gumrak one day too!

I'll sign under that, especially the Hs123. So neglected yet such an interesting aircraft. After 10 years it's being added (official) to IL-2 Sturmovik albeit as A.I.

[VO101_Tom]

For Germany it would probably be

Bf 109 E-7 (as fighter-bomber)
Bf 109 F-2
Bf 110 C/D/E (fighter-bomber and strategic recon)
Ju 88 A-4/5
Ju 88 D (strategic recon)
He 111 H-3 / H-6
Hs 126
Hs 123
Ju 87 B-2
Ju 52
Fi 156

For the VVS

I-16 (ShKAS-armed types)
I-153 (ShKAS-armed types)
LaGG-3
MiG-3
Yak-1
Pe-2
Il-2
+ more that I can't remember now

You forgot the mighty killing machine, the famous Po-2 (U-2) ;)

[carguy_]

For Germany it would probably be

Bf 109 E-7 (as fighter-bomber)
Bf 109 F-2
Bf 110 C/D/E (fighter-bomber and strategic recon)
Ju 88 A-4/5
Ju 88 D (strategic recon)
He 111 H-3 / H-6
Hs 126
Hs 123
Ju 87 B-2
Ju 52
Fi 156

For the VVS

I-16 (ShKAS-armed types)
I-153 (ShKAS-armed types)
LaGG-3
MiG-3
Yak-1
Pe-2
Il-2
+ more that I can't remember now

Clearly visible that Moskau campaign would not be happy times for reds. Lots of turkey shooting for the Luftwaffe. Although the tactical situation will be in favor of the commies. If the flak accuracy will be close to that of IL2, blue team might have a tough time also. Yes, that and the Friedrich`s 15mm against Sturmovik armor. BUT, the fieldmod did introduce the MG 151/20 for the F2. Another thing - I think I read somewhere that the Bf110s have served in this campaign, although in small numbers. This makes the Hs129 the most welcome plane to be had, because frankly the lufties don`t have much to stop the russian tanks with.

[VO101_Tom]

i dont care if there will be no F-4 in "Battle for Moskau" , as long there will be the FieldMod posibility for the F-2 to arm it with a MG151/20 ;)

Fortunately the "little calibre" not anymore pop gun like than in Il-2.

[carguy_]

IIRC it was only belted with tracer and AP rounds.

[JG53Frankyboy]

think about the endless possibilities in belting for the .303 (as example) in BoB .................every roundtype fired once in history ??! :D


Hs129 does not fit in the scenario. THE firedepartment for the german Army to hold the soviet counteroffensive were the Bf110s (as max 4 Groups), the Hs123 and Bf109E (in total 3 sqadrons 109 fighterbombers and one squadron of the Henschel) and sure the Ju87 .

[Katkatman]

The main question won't be "which plane" but "which performances" (regarding quality products from the two sides), I already saw crapy planes easily shooting down another which couldn't been by this during the war.

By the way, the battle of moscow wasn't planned from a long time,having seen objects/models already created , Korea was.

God moves in mysterious ways :rolleyes:

[carguy_]

God moves in mysterious ways :rolleyes:

Yeah. I mean who would have thought that the Battle of Britain would just be a cover-up for the il2 remake.

[Sven]

I dont think the reddies will be worrying too much about their planes, they have the Mig/3 (Excellent plane, very fast at altitude but lacks firepower) and the Yak/1 although in low quantities and without radios ( I wonder how this will be modelled)

[Jaws2002]

It didn't take part in the battle of Moscow, but any early war scenario could use some IAR-80s. :lol:

[Al Schlageter]

One can find the Luftwaffe OOB here, http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/Balkan.html#Barb

Scroll down.

[Katkatman]

Yeah. I mean who would have thought that the Battle of Britain would just be a cover-up for the il2 remake.

I personally think that late changings of purposes won't bring the game to the expected rentability, funds aren't unlimited.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Mh. I think the Russian market for such kind of things is quite big. Unlike here in Germany where - when I talk about my hobby - I collect strange looks.

Another money-wise interesting scenario will be the pacific (a scenario that I really did like in IL2. I just love carrier ops and to fly online the f3f4 vs the zero gave me always great fun. The 0.50ers on the f3f4 as modelled in old IL2 may have been weak but they were darn effective against the balsa planes.

[machoo]

I wish they would release Pacific theater aircraft . Then people could just create the islands when the SDK comes out.

[unreasonable]

No Bf 109 F-4, AFAIK no unit engaged in Taifun was equipped with them.

II/JG3 were equipped with F4s on 27th July 1941. It was transfered from V Fliegerkorps to II Fliegerkorps at the end of September in preparation for Taifun and operated in the Orel area (on the southern end of the Taifun front) until 12th October, after which it was transfered to support the attack on the Crimea.

See J.Prien's book "JG3 Udet in WW2" for details.

Anyway, I would hope that the new expansion would include a Kiev or Crimea map anyway,so the full plane set should be available.

[Avimimus]

My priorities:
- Mig-3
- Il-4 (exceedingly well balanced bomber, with larger payload than the Il-2 or Pe-2)
- Il-2 (good strafing platform)
- Po-2 (or R-5)
- FW-189 (durable glass house, with strong gunners and giant wingspan)
- HS-126
- P-40B
- Pe-3

Wouldn't it be lovely to have these all as flyables?

However, knowing Luthier, there will likely be more of an emphasis on high performance planes (eg. notice that the projects he's supervised tend to off the maximum bombloads, without lighter operational options)...

Ill take a p40 over any early war russian fighter anyday, i find the .50`s to be the most average balanced round in the game. Ammo vs Stopping power wise

You only get two of the heavy machine guns though ;)

[IceFire]

I don't think anyone mentioned the Yak-7... I'm fairly certain that there were Yak-7s in operation here as well. Mostly 7A but later the 7B as well... would have to look at the timing closely.

[csThor]

@ unreasonable

Thx. If Prien says so then I stand corrected. ;)

@ IceFire

IIRC the Yak-7's transition into a frontline fighter began in late 1941 but I am not sure if it did fly combat missions before spring 1942. Remember the soviet aviation industry was still in the process of relocation to the east and was not up to speed.

[Al Schlageter]

II/JG3 were equipped with F4s on 27th July 1941. It was transfered from V Fliegerkorps to II Fliegerkorps at the end of September in preparation for Taifun and operated in the Orel area (on the southern end of the Taifun front) until 12th October, after which it was transfered to support the attack on the Crimea.

See J.Prien's book "JG3 Udet in WW2" for details.

Anyway, I would hope that the new expansion would include a Kiev or Crimea map anyway,so the full plane set should be available.

JG52 also had F-4s from July 15 1941. see Prien's 109 book for photos taken at Tiraspol Oct 10 1941 of Major Hans Truenbach's F-4 WNr 7079 (pg 24)

[csThor]

Only III./JG 52 had the F-4 and while the Geschwaderstab got them later as well only II./JG 52 took part in Taifun - with Bf 109 F-2. The rest of JG 52 served in the South.

[ElAurens]

Of course the P-40B would make my day.

;)

Robust airframe, fast at the levels the VVS mostly operated at, maneuverable, high roll rate, and if we got the field modded version with the wing guns removed, even more performance and higher roll rates.

Also it had endurance, something usually lacking in both the Luftwaffe and Russian built machines.

[carguy_]

Of course the P-40B would make my day.
Robust airframe, fast at the levels the VVS mostly operated at, maneuverable, high roll rate, and if we got the field modded version with the wing guns removed, even more performance and higher roll rates.

Also it had endurance, something usually lacking in both the Luftwaffe and Russian built machines.

You may not know this, but in the online wars, lend lease US planes have always been more welcomed. Firstly because they took more skill to fly succesfully. A P40 didn`t always show the same, top notch firghting performance because red side pilots actually had trouble managing them. A fearsome opponent, and nearly every red victory well deserved.

Second reason is that the fifty caliber worked a little different. 80% of the time a LW plane was shot and crippled while the pilot was able to escape.

[IceFire]

@ unreasonable

Thx. If Prien says so then I stand corrected. ;)

@ IceFire

IIRC the Yak-7's transition into a frontline fighter began in late 1941 but I am not sure if it did fly combat missions before spring 1942. Remember the soviet aviation industry was still in the process of relocation to the east and was not up to speed.
Good point. I had a look at the Osprey series Yak Aces book and it says the first Yak-7 went into service with 172 IAP in September 1941. I don't know where they were nor if they flew combat missions. I guess further digging required to find out if they were used or not.

[JG53Frankyboy]

the Yak7 as fighter was in action in the Battle of Moskau area , according to Gordon&Kazhanov. But VERY few only. And personaly i would say, to include them as flyable would not be worth the effort as the performance difference to a Yak1 was so minor...

MiG3, LaGG3, Yak1, P-40 'Tomahawk' in whatever versions, are already a lot of work in the wanted quality i guess. And than there are still the Polikarpows :D

[csThor]

Hehe ... I can already envision the picture one Pe-2 recon pilot had when he was tasked to find the spearhead of a german Panzerkorps after the ground forces had lost contact. He came across a ten-mile long tank column and reported back - only to be asked how much Vodka he'd consumed before. It was not before a second pilot confirmed the finding that the higher ups understood that the soviet front had been broken.

[rga]

Mig-3 definitely. The world's fasterst fighter in 1940, excellent in all vertical maneuvers, retent energy very well even at very hight AoA. Not very good when turnning, especially at low altitude, but if you stick to Bnz, even the infamous Messer should fear (Unfortunately, real life Russian pilots couldn't afford the luxury to avoid the fight even when they were at disadvantage as their German counterparts ). Fly like a pig with full fuel tank. Truly the Russian version of P-51 if you ask me.

[Sven]

Yeah the Ruskies had a very good one with the MiG, very advanced aircraft for the time.

[zakkandrachoff]

Flying from Otopeni military airbase, the PZL P.24 fighters managed to shoot down 37 unescorted VVS bombers.[2] The P.24E was also used for ground attack missions until the end of 1941 and after 1942 it was relegated to training duties because of its obsolescence.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/images/profile_romanian_01.jpg
Heinkel He 112B
Grupul 5, slt.av. Teodor Moscu
June 1941

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/images/profile_romanian_03.jpg
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/mikoyangurevich-mig3.jpg

bould be nice do with moscow, a map of crimea including Odessa, and in a future can be expanded for Battle of Yugoslavya and Greece. will be good have Bf109E against Bf109E

anyway, want my friedrich 4:-P

[carguy_]

Mig-3 definitely. The world's fasterst fighter in 1940, excellent in all vertical maneuvers, retent energy very well even at very hight AoA. Not very good when turnning, especially at low altitude, but if you stick to Bnz, even the infamous Messer should fear (Unfortunately, real life Russian pilots couldn't afford the luxury to avoid the fight even when they were at disadvantage as their German counterparts ). Fly like a pig with full fuel tank. Truly the Russian version of P-51 if you ask me.

I`m speaking what I remember from the old game. And IIRC the Mig burned like a torch, even from small caliber hits. It was famous amongst Luftwaffe virtual pilots to be one of the few planes that could be brought down by the MG fire alone.
Apart from that, significantly worse maneuverability when fighting the Friendrich below 5000m; worse dive maximum velocity.
The 109F2 is a better fighter ; anyhow the analogy with the p51 is interesting, as it also didn`t pose too much of a threat.

[wannabetheace]

I can and will buy this series just to fly over red square :grin: can't wait...

[Stealth_Eagle]

Interesting thread here. Doubt anyone remembers this thread besides me. So BUMP.

[trumps]

really looking forward to the eventual release of the Moscow addon, i do hope it is an addon and not a standalone btw. looking forward to jumping back in some red birds, always loved the I-16, and Mig-3 from Il-2. glad they seem to have chosen Moscow for the next installment, the only thing that could have been better would have been North Africa/med around 1941-42, really not interested in the pacific or late war, after all the drama and copyright crap from the US companies in the original Pac fighters it's just not worth the aggrevation, and nowhere near as interesting as supporting the great tank battles of the Russian, and western desert theatres imho!

Cheers
Craig

[He111]

This is all well and great .. but could we please have an extended BOB set first ? my wallet awaits for this ..

Flyable;

defiant
Wellington
Condor (Atlantic campaign)

New aircraft

Lysander
Hampden
Hudson
All french stuff
.. ok .. Fairy Battle / Fulmar :)

.

[CWMV]

109F first, all else is secondary.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

We don't need a Battle of Moscow.

We need a Cliffs of Dover.

The current game is not even close to being what was promised.

It is functionally impossible to run a historically accurate campaign which models the Battles of the airfields, or the attack on London.

There are not even the correct Royal Navy ships to replicate the Battle of the Convoys. There is not a single British escort ship, there should be Destroyers, Minesweepers, MTB's, etc.

The aircraft are not modelled correctly, not the German, not the British, not the Italian.

[trumps]

Lol, I am sure that we all want to see the current release fixed, and fleshed out first, but it will be interesting to seewhat the future holds! The History of CloD is chequered that's for sure, but 1 thing is for certain if they go to Moscow next there can be no excuses for botching the job ;)

Craig