Just wondering, do you think that IL2 Sturmovik (original)was way ahead of it's time?

[Mysticpuma]

Currently, we are lead to believe that there are a lot of place-holders in CloD from IL2 (the original), which, when you consider it was started 10-years-ago, makes me wonder if the technology of the Sim was far in advance of what could be expected?

If you consider CloD is still using (in it's current condition) place-holders from the original IL2 then it has stood the test of time incredibly well.

I have updated mine with the latest HSFX 5.01 patch to include many new effects and aircraft, and these will far sustain me while myriad bugs are fixed in CloD.

That withstanding, the original IL2 has to be one of the most (for it's time and still) advanced pieces of programming in a Decade of all games, not just flight-sims?

Hopefully CloD will achieve this height of quality at some point, but I can't see myself uninstalling IL2 + the many expansions (The Last Days, Battle over Europe, Ostfront) and nor forgetting the skins and Missions that are so bountiful.

So was/is the original IL2 really ahead of it's time?

Cheers, MP

[ElAurens]

I have to agree.

Il2 set a standard that has not been eclipsed, even by it's notional replacement, Cliffs of Dover.

IL2 drove the largest software company in the world out if the combat flight sim market.

It was head and shoulders above anything that had come before it. The fact that is has stood on that pedestal for 10 odd years speaks for itself.

If Maddox Games can get their now turbulent house in order, Cliffs of Dover has a shot at standing on the shoulders of IL2.

But not in it's current state.

[Skoshi Tiger]

At the time of the original IL-2's release I had a mid range PC that was more than capable of playing games like CFS, Janes WWII Fighters, Janes USNF series and Long Bow.

I tried to run the demo and my poor PC ground to a halt.

I went back to my other sims and except for an occasional magazine article forgot about IL2. Then Pacific fighters came out, I’d upgraded my PC not long before and picked it up on the day of release. Within a month I’d bought all the previous expansions for the merged install and was kicking myself that I’d let the series slide to a couple of years.

So I’d say IL2 was well ahead of its time. It completely outclassed the opposition BUT required the latest hardware at its release.

I see a similar trend occurring with COD except this time I have a playable game on a mid range PC.


Cheers.

[Wolf_Rider]

I have to agree.


IL2 drove the largest software company in the world out if the combat flight sim market.



err, no it didn't... there was conflict of interest between the developer team and paid addon third party developers, combined with dodgy (false, to be exact) advertising

[Robin2k7]

believe me i almost did uninstall IL-2 , however when the HSFX5.1 mod appears i decide to keep it .

also in combination with the still bad performance in Cliffs of Dover over land .

i really give this Sim(COD) a chance but i think they still have a long way to go .

it feels i bought a car and 1 cylinder is not working and the garage tell me i have to wait a few month,s before its fixed that's really how COD feel right now .

so yes in the mean wile i keep flying the good old IL-2 !! :grin:

[Geronimo989]

I agree that IL-2 seemed WAAAY ahead of its time. It looks good even now and with some mods, nobody would ever guess that the game is 10 years old. Bf1942 is something like that too :)
Now I have a problem, after experiencing CoD I just cant get back to IL-2, as it feels arcad-ish compared to it in CEM, flight and damage models. Yet, being too lazy and unimaginative to mess with FMB, I cant find much to do in CoD except furball all the time in QMB (which is much worse than IL-2 QMB). In IL-2 those little dynamic campaigns were simple but did the job for me. I wish they could be ported over somehow.

[Baron]

Stolen from another thread:


Vengeanze Vengeanze is offline
Member

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 54
Default You think CloD get patched alot?
We all remember IL-2 Sturmovik as a great game that broke new boundaries and started a new era in WW2 flightsim. But we don't remember the patchrate.
Many complain about CloD patches being patched and one thing fixed and two broken.
So how was it in the days of IL-2 Sturmovik?

Googled some and this is what I found. It might be inaccurate. If so the please correct it.

Game released in November 2001

Patch 1.01g
Patch 1.02a
Patch 1.02b
Patch 1.03a
Patch 1.04
Patch 1.04b
Patch 1.1
Patch 1.1a
Patch 1.2
Patch 1.2ov released in September 2002

So in less than a year we had 10 patches!

Seems CloD development and patches ain't any different from IL-2 which we today hold so high!

Patience is a virtue!

[Eldur]

IL2 drove the largest software company in the world out if the combat flight sim market.

The one(s) that didn't even exist anymore at that time? ;)

Microprose hat no releases since 1999, though it had been closes in 2003.
Jane's Combat Simulations was killed by EA (still they managed to ship Attack Squadron in 2002, but we had Il-2 already and it was much better), not by 1c:Maddox :cool:

Wait... there was one... Microsoft :D
But they never had Combat Simulators IMHO ;)
At least their FMs weren't worth it. And I never liked those 2D-Cockpits that the first 2 CFS had.

[swiss]

So was/is the original IL2 really ahead of it's time?


It actually shows something else too:

The fact this this is a tiny, rather attractive niche market.
How many alternatives (which deserve the name "alternative", i.e. not WOP) where put on the market during the mentioned timespan?

For this reason I can't understand all the whining, if COD [edit the edit:] screws up there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
Well, in fact, there is some light; it's the headlights of the freight train from 777 - they sure could fill the gap, but they sure will take you to the cleaner's too...


edit: Now I read the end of this thread, I noticed Eldur was faster.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Stolen from another thread:


Vengeanze Vengeanze is offline
Member

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 54
Default You think CloD get patched alot?
We all remember IL-2 Sturmovik as a great game that broke new boundaries and started a new era in WW2 flightsim. But we don't remember the patchrate.
Many complain about CloD patches being patched and one thing fixed and two broken.
So how was it in the days of IL-2 Sturmovik?

Googled some and this is what I found. It might be inaccurate. If so the please correct it.

Game released in November 2001

Patch 1.01g
Patch 1.02a
Patch 1.02b
Patch 1.03a
Patch 1.04
Patch 1.04b
Patch 1.1
Patch 1.1a
Patch 1.2
Patch 1.2ov released in September 2002

So in less than a year we had 10 patches!

Seems CloD development and patches ain't any different from IL-2 which we today hold so high!

Patience is a virtue!

+1

From all people I know who have bought IL2 Mk I on release concur with this. They all say that in the beginning it was unplayable and full of bugs. Some even say that IL2 got really good only after patch 1.4

[Blakduk]

I cant remember which version i first played- it was il2 1.????
I recall being awestruck by the atmosphere and scrolling terrain, but i had to turn all the visuals way down just to get it to run. I also recall seeing AI doing amazing hammerhead turns that quickly got referred to as 'bat turns'- they were a real immersion killer for me, they looked so out of place.
I dont recall so many beta patches coming out back then, but then i was solely offline and hadn't really discovered the forums. If 1C can hold their nerve and release patches that are robust i expect great things again.

[C6_Krasno]

"From all people I know who have bought IL2 Mk I on release concur with this. They all say that in the beginning it was unplayable and full of bugs. Some even say that IL2 got really good only after patch 1.4 "


I believe IL2 has had only patches up to 1.2 (before going to Forgotten Battles).

[Seeker]

IIRC, the following was going on, on or about the time IL-2 came out:

Air Warrior was dying, Aces High was starting, Warbirds was in decline (it's chief staff having left to start Aces High) and EAW was beginning to sink into mod madness and suffering from a graphics card generation change it couldn't cope with, and I can't quite remember when Rowen's Battle of Britain was released but I think it was around the same time or slightly earlier.

I certainly bought IL-2 as soon as at came out (I'll buy any WWII prop sim); and I was wonderfully impressed by the graphical beauty, but I very quickly shelved it again due to the funky view system (this was long before Track IR) and the lack of Spitfires!

I picked up again for Forgotten Battles (Spitfires again!).

The only apparent revolutionary things in IL-2 were the bail out animation, plane set and the fact that it was Russian, which was unheard of at the time, every thing else had been seen before (from a features/end user perspective, I've no idea if the code had new solutions to old problems).

Edit: I'll take some of that back, there was something new for IL-2: The training missions. A genuinely new idea as far as I know. Unfortunately, every patch seemed to break it, and Oleg never seemed bothered about one of the few features that were genuinely unique. Thinking back, the Current crew could probably avoid a hell of a lot of moaning by including training tracks on how to cope with CEM, and maybe even a "Technical officer briefing" on game set up including graphic options and what they do.

Another huge, massive hole in the whole IL-2 series has been some sort of collated documentation on the finer aspects of conf.ini and RCU file tweaking. The RCU idea _could_ have been developed into something unique, but for some reason it never seems to get any attention, being hidden away in the file system, a place where ordinary users have no business!

In many ways, Clod is only now catching up with EAW's feature set, and then only just. It still lacks Airwarrior's online mission briefing tools, Aces High's linked buff AI, any online sim's multi crewed buffs and a slew of features common in the better sims of the last centuary.

Nothing about Clod is revolutionary, not a thing.

[Baron]

Nothing about Clod is revolutionary, not a thing.


True to some extent, except the complexity of everything from graphics to damage model and trying to put everything together in one package.


Witch, as everyone have noticed, isn't a easy thing. (not referring to CoD only here)


The more game developers can do the more complex it gets and harder to get to work properly.

[Seeker]

Except the complexity and trying to put everything together in one package.


Witch, as everyone have noticed, isn't a easy thing. (not referring to CoD only here)

Really? Remember WWII online?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

IIRC, the following was going on, on or about the time IL-2 came out:

Air Warrior was dying, Aces High was starting, Warbirds was in decline (it's chief staff having left to start Aces High) and EAW was beginning to sink into mod madness and suffering from a graphics card generation change it couldn't cope with, and I can't quite remember when Rowen's Battle of Britain was released but I think it was around the same time or slightly earlier.

I certainly bought IL-2 as soon as at came out (I'll buy any WWII prop sim); and I was wonderfully impressed by the graphical beauty, but I very quickly shelved it again due to the funky view system (this was long before Track IR) and the lack of Spitfires!

I picked up again for Forgotten Battles (Spitfires again!).

The only apparent revolutionary things in IL-2 were the bail out animation, plane set and the fact that it was Russian, which was unheard of at the time, every thing else had been seen before (from a features/end user perspective, I've no idea if the code had new solutions to old problems).

Edit: I'll take some of that back, there was something new for IL-2: The training missions. A genuinely new idea as far as I know. Unfortunately, every patch seemed to break it, and Oleg never seemed bothered about one of the few features that were genuinely unique. Thinking back, the Current crew could probably avoid a hell of a lot of moaning by including training tracks on how to cope with CEM, and maybe even a "Technical officer briefing" on game set up including graphic options and what they do.

Another huge, massive hole in the whole IL-2 series has been some sort of collated documentation on the finer aspects of conf.ini and RCU file tweaking. The RCU idea _could_ have been developed into something unique, but for some reason it never seems to get any attention, being hidden away in the file system, a place where ordinary users have no business!

In many ways, Clod is only now catching up with EAW's feature set, and then only just. It still lacks Airwarrior's online mission briefing tools, Aces High's linked buff AI, any online sim's multi crewed buffs and a slew of features common in the better sims of the last centuary.

Nothing about Clod is revolutionary, not a thing.

Your last phrase is imho very subjective and a bit simplistic as you only refer to some game features like play modes or animation sequences.

There are a lot of other aspects for a flight sim beyond this few you focus on.

I say in terms of graphics and damage model CoD is definitely pushing the bar very very high in the genre of flight sims.

There are many features I never heard of before such as the possibility to use scripting language for mission building as is possible in CoD. That I would say is a pretty new feature but perhaps a feature you don't care for. But others do.

Also I am very much looking forward to the moment when the devs turn on the weather module. This will be awesome I am certain.

So will CoD revolutionize the flight sim market? I am sure it will do it as much as IL2 did. It will become the standard in ww2 flight combat simulation and setting a standard. It is no secret that most people switched to IL2 when it was on the market and only few remained with other simulations like Aces High or Battle of Britain Wings of Victory. The same will happen and is already happening with CloD.

[Blackdog_kt]

I remember playing through the IL2 demo and getting stutters and freezes every step along the way, but it was so much more advanced that everything i'd seen before that i decided to buy it.

I remember getting the first IL2 release back in 2001 and being unable to run missions with more than a dozen aircraft or so.

I remember that firing rockets from zoomed-in view caused an almost two second freeze due to the smoke particle effects, which led me to either pull up while the image on the screen was still frozen or switch to wide view just before pressing the rocket triggers, otherwise i would end up slamming my sturmovik right beside the panzers i was supposed to attack.

I remember flying European Air War in parallel because it was a more well-rounded title that i could run easily on my PC while recreating massive battles, but always hoping that one day i could run IL2 with EAW's numbers. Well, it happened, just not immediately after IL2's release.

I remember the initial Fw-190 which had the acceleration and energy retention of a truck.

I remember there were only scripted campaigns on the first version and there wasn't even a difficulty option to allow you to advance the missions regardless of result. If a mission was particularly hard (and many of them were, because the scripted campaigns tried to closely follow actual happenings) you could very well be stuck and unable to advance the campaign because you couldn't succeed in one mission.

I remember when flying a career with level bombers that the AI wingmen would initiate a diving attack from 5000m of altitude because no level bombing AI routines were present.

I remember people testing, discovering and reporting on the forums that in order to improve frame rates and performance when using certain high rate of fire machine guns, the game completely disregarded normal rounds and only took tracers into account.

I remember the myriad inaccuracies in terms of flight models, scale issues and ammunition loadouts.

I remember that a lot of graphics options where completely absent from the in-game control panels because no PC could run them when it was first released. They were enabled during the course of future patches and add-ons and people had to manually edit configuration files to get them.


That's what IL2 was. It's not what it is today though. It got patched, it got fixed, it grew and it got the place of the king in the prop-sim genre.

It's still not perfect because nothing can be and it's still not the most immersive or user friendly piece of entertainment software. It's just that force of habit means that we prefer dealing with a set of intricacies we are familiar with while b*tching and moaning to a disproportionate degree when having to deal with other, not necessarily worse, but simply unfamiliar quirks of another software title.

To describe the current situation all i would say is, let's take a look back and stop pretending it was all roses with the previous series just because it's the best it can be today, have a bit of faith and stop getting our collective panties in a twist. ;)

[the Dutchman]

Ahead of it's time?
Not more than 2 weeks..............

[lorddweeb]

Really? Remember WWII online?

WWII online is still around. Its flight model hasn't advanced much since the early days (beyond all the massive bug fixing they had to do back then), so flight-model-wise it can't compare to the newer sims. Even though IL-2 was obviously better from a flight model perspective back then, there were still things I liked better about WWIIOL, such as the head bob/movement from maneuvering. It was a total mess on release up until about 6 months later but it still had a ton of firsts in it. Its still the best tank sim around IMO.

2001 was actually a great year for SIM innovation, even if lots of the products ranged from buggy to horrifically buggy. IL2, wwiiol, operation flashpoint, bf1942. (yes I realize that last one isnt really a sim)

But anyway, it does seem like IL2:CODs issues might stem from similar problems. Wasn't there even some rumors way back when that the reason for all the crazily-detailed ground units and so on was that Oleg basically wanted this game to eventually mature into a massively mutliplayer "total sim" type thing?

[Rattlehead]

The original Il-2 was definitely way ahread of it's time and more importantly, it has stood the test of time.
Up until earlier this year I was still playing it, and vanilla too!