Why fly the Spitfire?

[Formula88]

Its less durable than a hurricane and not too much faster, far less stable and completely useless for shooting down 109s. There is no reason to fly for the red side as far as I can see. Every advantage belongs to the blue with faster planes, deadlier guns and just general superiority. I was just in the syndicate server and there was like 15 blue and 5 red...I left because, well, wtf? Give us an aircraft capable of competeing with the 109 and I might decide to start playing again.

[robtek]

Its less durable than a hurricane and not too much faster, far less stable and completely useless for shooting down 109s. There is no reason to fly for the red side as far as I can see. Every advantage belongs to the blue with faster planes, deadlier guns and just general superiority. I was just in the syndicate server and there was like 15 blue and 5 red...I left because, well, wtf? Give us an aircraft capable of competeing with the 109 and I might decide to start playing again.

The problem is....YOU!!!
One just has to build the energy first before attacking with the spit, and conserve it.
The armament is more then adequate for any blue plane in this sim, just no spray'n'pray -> not enough ammo, only 18 s.
Convergence to 150 m and a correct aim will bring em all down.

I just went on the syn-server, took a spit Ia and went to france, shot down 2 109 before a 40mm aa perforated my left wing, then i had 2 109 on my tail, in the following dogfight i did hurt one before a wild evation maneuver brought my spit in a stall, at 200ft height that ended fatally.
However, 2 and a half victorys before the ack ack brought me down. Not a single hit by the 109's, and they tried really hard.
Oh, usually i fly the 110, i am not very trained on the spit.

[Doc_uk]

Its less durable than a hurricane and not too much faster, far less stable and completely useless for shooting down 109s. There is no reason to fly for the red side as far as I can see. Every advantage belongs to the blue with faster planes, deadlier guns and just general superiority. I was just in the syndicate server and there was like 15 blue and 5 red...I left because, well, wtf? Give us an aircraft capable of competeing with the 109 and I might decide to start playing again. Why, Because its a spitfire, who doesnt want to fly a spitfire:grin:

[Redroach]

in the following dogfight i did hurt one before a wild evation maneuver brought my spit in a stall, at 200ft height that ended fatally.
However, 2 and a half victorys before the ack ack brought me down.

Bloody Tommies, they think a plane damaged is 'half a victory' :D

[JG14_Jagr]

Years ago I was at a golf tournament and we only had a threesome so a 4th was added. The guy was an older Brit named Hal and while we played he mentioned he had been to Florida in the 40's for flight training while in the RAF. So we started talking and he got into the details of his experiences and how he loved the AT-6 because you could do anything you wanted with it..

He explained that after passing all the screening and his basic flight training he was in a large room (after the BoB, probably 1942) and the Commander walked in and stood before the class and said "Who wants to fly Spitfires?"

Every person in the room stood up enthusiasticly. The Commander looked around and said, "So did I, but they made me a Bomber pilot and thats what I'm making you."

"Hal" ended up piloting a Halifax Bomber over Germany. In all his flights he got hit with flak 3 times and once had a German night fighter fly right across in front of him at very cose range almost on the same heading then never saw him again..

Back to CoD, if you are having trouble killing 109's with the Spitfire you are the problem.. I was routinely getting 2-3 109's before the current Beta messed with Multiplayer for me. If you can get 2-3 Spitfires with a 109 I'll be impressed :)

[Doc_uk]

Years ago I was at a golf tournament and we only had a threesome so a 4th was added. The guy was an older Brit named Hal and while we played he mentioned he had been to Florida in the 40's for flight training while in the RAF. So we started talking and he got into the details of his experiences and how he loved the AT-6 because you could do anything you wanted with it..

He explained that after passing all the screening and his basic flight training he was in a large room (after the BoB, probably 1942) and the Commander walked in and stood before the class and said "Who wants to fly Spitfires?"

Every person in the room stood up enthusiasticly. The Commander looked around and said, "So did I, but they made me a Bomber pilot and thats what I'm making you."

"Hal" ended up piloting a Halifax Bomber over Germany. In all his flights he got hit with flak 3 times and once had a German night fighter fly right across in front of him at very cose range almost on the same heading then never saw him again..

Back to CoD, if you are having trouble killing 109's with the Spitfire you are the problem.. I was routinely getting 2-3 109's before the current Beta messed with Multiplayer for me. If you can get 2-3 Spitfires with a 109 I'll be impressed :) LOL i like that

[Buzpilot]

Its less durable than a hurricane and not too much faster, far less stable and completely useless for shooting down 109s. There is no reason to fly for the red side as far as I can see. Every advantage belongs to the blue with faster planes, deadlier guns and just general superiority. I was just in the syndicate server and there was like 15 blue and 5 red...I left because, well, wtf? Give us an aircraft capable of competeing with the 109 and I might decide to start playing again.

There is a capable plane, Spit MkIIa, but most servers are in favour of 109's, so their afraid to fight it, and disable it in menu.

[Blackdog_kt]

I think the reason the IIA is disabled on most servers is that the 109E's FM is off in terms of top speed, so until the FMs are corrected in a patch people are trying to balance things out on their own.

This is not only a 109 issue, in fact after tests done by the community members (the results are in this forum) the Spit IIa is the only aircraft that is getting its real-world performance in the sim.

Most of the other fighters, both axis and allied, are slower than they were in reality so the Spit.IIa becomes an "i-win" choice. I'm sure that when all the other fighters are tuned to better reflect their historical performance (auto-mixture fixed, 109s getting their correct speed, 110s getting the improved engines they used during the BoB, Spit Is and Hurris getting the 100 octane boost limits) the Spit IIa will make a return.

Until then, it's not only too much to handle for the people flying 109s, it's also too unfair to compete with for kills for the people flying other RAF fighters-->everyone on the red team would fly an Mk.II and things would be boring without Hurricanes ;)

[609_Huetz]

I wonder what that "poor-red" fuzz is all about. The Spitfire is an outstanding fighter in this sim. I fly red mostly (some rare trips in a 109 included though) and I can't really complain. I have died online maybe twice or three times in accidents, yet I still have to be shot down by a 109 or a 110. That is after more than 6 weeks multiplayer.

It's much the same with the 109, if you work for your advantages, there's really nothing that can (and should) touch you.

[Buzpilot]

I wonder what that "poor-red" fuzz is all about. The Spitfire is an outstanding fighter in this sim. I fly red mostly (some rare trips in a 109 included though) and I can't really complain. I have died online maybe twice or three times in accidents, yet I still have to be shot down by a 109 or a 110. That is after more than 6 weeks multiplayer.

It's much the same with the 109, if you work for your advantages, there's really nothing that can (and should) touch you.

Thats what i mean, just because ppl can't handle the 109 advantages, they "feel" it's underpowered, and disable the SpitMkIIa.

[Blackdog_kt]

Thats what i mean, just because ppl can't handle the 109 advantages, they "feel" it's underpowered, and disable the SpitMkIIa.

Like i said before, people disallow the Mk.IIa because it's currently the only fighter that's getting correct performance. Everything else is slower than it should, 109s, Hurricanes, the whole lot.

Running a server with the Mk.IIa would probably result in 80% of the server population cruising around in one, it gets boring pretty fast if you have nothing to shoot at ;)

[whoarmongar]

I sugest you dont fly a spit online join the other 70% of online players who fly 109s. Its faster climbs better dives better and is more powerfully armed. this allied to the fact that lots of servers ban the MkII, and flying the Mk1 is like driving a car with only 1st and 4th gear.

[Reckless]

If you can get 2-3 Spitfires with a 109 I'll be impressed :)



how about 6?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YygiM6FXLXQ

:cool:

[Gollum]

I enjoy flying both the 109 and spitfire. I also exclusively play online. I chose to fly the Ia spitfire and not to fly the IIa spitfire even when it is available because it is currently too powerful compared to the current FM of the 109. The IIa out turns, out climbs, out runs, all others. What fun is that?

Either way, I have no problem getting kills with either plane but there are rules to each.

109, never get into turning battles. If you don't have the altitude advantage then dive the hell away and climb again before attacking. If you get caught with an altitude disadvantage you better hope you have room to dive or that your oponent is a lousy shot giving you enough time to get out of range.

Spit, turning battles are ok but why do this when altitude advantage is your friend. Get the advantage and keep it (same goes for any plan you fly). If you are a turn and burn all the time pilot with no consideration for potential and kinetic energy then there is good reason you are having trouble with 109's. With alt advantage the spit neutralizes the the 109's climb and speed advandage (with the exception of the dive, so don't follow. keep alt and pursue). Without altitude advantage its the 109 who choses when to fight. If you don't have it, you better hope you have a friend that does. I have yet to find a way to "abort" an encounter with 109's swirling like sharks above. My current strategy in this situation is only to wait until a mistake is made by some unfortunate pilot who then gets a motor full of 303s. But who knows, maybe i'll figure something out soon enough. Until then, avoid this situation at all costs.

Try it out and work on your "critial point gunnery" and see if you still hate the spit.

[Gollum]

how about 6?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YygiM6FXLXQ

:cool:

Nice shooting. Deflection shots were nice. Do that online agains non AI and I'll really be impressed.;)

[Reckless]

I would love to make that attempt, but sadly my computer crashes so often I have given up playing online.


One point though, flying the 109 vs 6 AI spitfires it is quite possible to win. Flying the spitfire IIa vs 6 AI 109s it is almost impossible. This is flying on the Quick Mission: Dogfight - Low Level.

[Winger]

There is a capable plane, Spit MkIIa, but most servers are in favour of 109's, so their afraid to fight it, and disable it in menu.

Spit IIa simply doesnt belong into the BOB. At least not in even numbers. Period.
The Spit Ia is better in turning. A good 109 pilot will always have an edge over a spit if he plays the game using his advantages. Just dont engage in a fight if youre on even or lower energylevel with a spit. You can only win such an encounter if the 109 pilot is dumb and starts tunfighting your spit.

I for my part have big fun paying the game from the BnZers perspective this time. In ROF i was turn and burning on german side for almost 2 years (what else could I do with all allied planes being faster and better climbers). In CloD i am forced to BnZ. And it works.

Winger

Winger

[609_Huetz]

Spit IIa simply doesnt belong into the BOB. At least not in even numbers. Period.
The Spit Ia is better in turning. A good 109 pilot will always have an edge over a spit if he plays the game using his advantages. Just dont engage in a fight if youre on even or lower energylevel with a spit. You can only win such an encounter if the 109 pilot is dumb and starts tunfighting your spit.

I for my part have big fun paying the game from the BnZers perspective this time. In ROF i was turn and burning on german side for almost 2 years (what else could I do with all allied planes being faster and better climbers). In CloD i am forced to BnZ. And it works.

Winger

Winger
That definately is not true. During the major operations of the BoB, already almost some 190-200 planes were in service, with conversion starting as early as August and Production in June 1940.

Also, the most interesting thing is that the MkIa is still working with the Battle of France 2-Stage prop in-game, that is limiting performance quite a bit. IRL all aircraft from number 175 onwards of the prudction line were fitted with a CSP.

Then again, there should also be less E-3s and once it's out also limited E-4s available, with the E-1 being the main type of the LW in the BoB.

Especially online I find it funny to see tons of over confident 109 pilots flying in a sort of sloppy way, thinking they can get away with almost anything as long as they try to keep their speed up, but that will most likely change once the FMs are brought to their historical specifications and the correct 100 octane fuel introduced. Don't get me wrong, I love flying the 109 as well, but quite a few people will have to rethink their tactics in a bit.

[Grand_Armee]

Then again, there should also be less E-3s and once it's out also limited E-4s available, with the E-1 being the main type of the LW in the BoB.

In all the books I've read, all of the documentaries I've seen, in some 30-odd years of studying WWII, I've seen one picture of an E-1 purportedly flying during BoB. I would love to know where you get this information, please.

[Kurfurst]

Then again, there should also be less E-3s and once it's out also limited E-4s available, with the E-1 being the main type of the LW in the BoB.

All MG E-1s and cannon armed E-3/E-4/E-7 were roughly 50/50, or perhaps 60/40 with more cannon variants around.

Saying that the E-1 being the "main" type is completely misleading. One can pretty much handle the E-3/E-4/E-7 as one type (cannon armed Emil) and the E-1 (MG armed Emil) as another, as a matter of fact the differences were very minor, and even E-1s were converted to E-3 sometime.

[609_Huetz]

I will have to wait until the weekend to give you some numbers Grand Armee, as I can't access my library during the week, since I do not bring it to the city I work in.

Until then: the main problem with the E-1s wasn't the armament, it was discoverd during the late stages of the Battle of France and the early stages of the Battle of Britain that the pilot wasn't sufficiently protected. During the course of the battle, a decent number of E-1s was already converted and fitted cannons and IIRC additional pilot armor of the E-3/4 standard. That's why the definate numbers or pictures can sometimes be misleading.

I do however agree, before the start of the BoB, it's fair enough to treat the E-1s and E3/4 as two different variants, it all gets a bit blury however during the Battle. Until I get home however Kurfurst, can you supply some sources for Grand Armee?

[Grand_Armee]

Not necessary to go to great length. If it's just a question of small upgrades, I don't know that 1C would bother with the trouble of building another 'variant' that was raised to a new standard anyway. Can't see a lot of ppl complainin because of a piece of steel plate, armored windscreen, or alternate cockpit glazing.

[609_Huetz]

Exactly, that's why I can't really understand why they go with the E-4 first instead of the E-1 that would be a decent matchup for the Spitfire Mk.I and would allow us to also create a few nice early(er) war scenarios.

Maybe it's more of an investment in the future and the E-4 definately is representative for the months after the BoB.

[JG14_Jagr]

how about 6?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YygiM6FXLXQ

:cool:

AI do not count.. I could train a one eyed monkey to shoot down AI :)

[Ze-Jamz]

AI do not count.. I could train a one eyed monkey to shoot down AI :)

rofl...I indeed shot down 6 AI Spits in a 109 before getting to low and going for a swim...

It easy to get these numbers against AI when they cant shoot the door of a barn..

After about 3 mins trying to track 6 Spits against my 1 109 i would of been slaughted if they could shoot staight

Id like to see ANY 109 pilot taking on 5-6 human Spits with equal skill and come off on top

[Grand_Armee]

1 v 6 are losers odds...in any plane matchup. Even if you do manage to maintain the height and energy advantage, chances are one of those six will pull up just at the right time to put a stream of bullets in front of your plane.

[Tiger27]

Its less durable than a hurricane and not too much faster, far less stable and completely useless for shooting down 109s. There is no reason to fly for the red side as far as I can see. Every advantage belongs to the blue with faster planes, deadlier guns and just general superiority. I was just in the syndicate server and there was like 15 blue and 5 red...I left because, well, wtf? Give us an aircraft capable of competeing with the 109 and I might decide to start playing again.

How about you practise, I have no problems taking down 109's with the Spit, get your convergence and distance to target right and the 303's do some damage.

I note you complained about everyone flying blue, but then instead of redressing the balance you left(I always try and fly for which ever side has the least numbers, more targets, more fun:grin:), so you complain, but are also part of the problem, man up and learn to fly the Spit and you may enjoy it.

[Iku_es]

I play for both red and blue airforces.
And the Spitfire is a worthy oponent for the 109, a far more dangerous plane IMHO than the Hurricane for a 109 driver.

When flying the Spitfire, I also have problems following those sneaky Jerrys if they start their standard attack procedure:
1. Shallow dive on me
2. Fire
3. Extend
4 Climb.
5. Repeat if advantadge is kept. else dissengage.

But this is the way it was. It is a Spitfire, not an Eurofighter.
Anyway, if I start with some alt advantadge, they cannot outrun me easily.

Regarding the 303's... I have mine set to a convergence 150-150 and an API mix. With a 1,5 second burst I have no problems setting them afire. Also, It will help a lot if you fire from an unloaded state (not pulling G's) and with the ball centered!.

[Danelov]

E-1´s were of the most numerical and normal types used by the Luftwaffe and a good number were still in service in the peak of the Battle by August 1940. Like with the changes in camouflage with 71-02-65(or 76), some E-1 were also updated as E-4, mainly with the new hood and the pilot plate armour. The weapons were not always updated and a good number of original E-1 were always equipped with the four MG and in such configuration were shot down over Britain. Some 158 E-1s were shot down or loss between July and october(and 41 E-3 and 236 E-4s).The E-4 had entry in service in May 1940. They are good photos of this shot down E-1s only MG equipped in the serie of books of Eric Mombeek.
About Spitfires, the 12 boost power although was not maybe a official recomended power settings, was massively used by the RAF pilots in combat.Also the convergence of the 0.303s at 250 yards was near of be the standard.

[Seeker]

I flew mainly Spits in '46, I'm flying mainly Hurri's now; for the dweebiest of reasons:

I have to fight the game less to maintain a gun sight view and vision on target in a Hurri than the Spit. It must be awful for blue fliers.

I love the default load out for the Hurri and can't seem to replicate it in the Spit. I'm fighting the game so much to keep the gun sight view I'm getting closer and just hosing 'em down with that lovely garden spray from the Hurri, I find this hard to do in the Spit with the default tracerless load out.

There's no doubt that the Hurri was, and is modelled as, the superior gun platform. If you could gain position.

There's no doubt it was much easier, and is so modelled, to gain position in a Spit than it is in a Hurri. But that still doesn't mean you can shoot the bugger.

I don't feel 109's are too much a threat in either of them under 10k any way. 110's are a harder nut to crack. Probably because they're not fighting the game's gun sight like the 109 drivers.

[Ze-Jamz]

Hmm..Im not sure about this Spit..

I hate the way it bleeds E in a spiral climb for instance, in fact any sort of climb it isnt good..the guns are ok but that it, its one of those sometimes they surprise you, sometimes they just annoy you type of situation..the negative G cut out just suxxors and bites you when you need power the most..., like il2 any type of hit on the front and your in trouble, plink there goes the engine..it doesnt take Dmg very well

I cant back up my claim neither do i have any type of evidence but any books/programs ive read you will always here about how good the spit is at E retention..it may be me again but i dont think this bird in game retains E that well?..Slow speed characteristics are rubbish, in a stall fight against a 109 its hard to come up on top

If you spin out in a spit, good luck recovering...it mat be me or my setup but if i start to flat spin in a spit I wont recover 99% of the time

equal skill level if you have a 109 on you who has Alt your in trouble...i fly both and the 109 you can just hang on its tail..it climbs like a mofo and dives just aswell, its being used in game like you would use a FW-190 in Il2...very hard to catch, dont even bother trying to climb with it ..the guns, again are okay once you master them, the 20's are as they should be and have a slow ROF but once you get your convergence right they rok.

In game the 109 is superior on nearly all levels...imo but i like flying both in either case, depends what mood im in :rolleyes:

[Ze-Jamz]

I just read in this thread about keeping Altitude on a 109 etc, well yes having altitude on any opponent is favourite however again you would lose the fight with a 109 if the pilot has as much knowledge/skill as you...

What are you going to do? he can extend quicker than you which gives the 109 an advantage in getting more altitude than you depending on how high you are this advantage widens, I wouldn't fancy your chance Med to High Alt and at Co Alt with a 109, you will find yourself evading more than the 109 unless he's made a mistake, sure you can dive but your compress quicker anyway aswell as being slower in that dive.

It would be interesting to actually know how under modelled the spit and indeed 109 are in game and if the disadvantages I'm talking about here were quite as broad in RL

[Ze-Jamz]

sry for the multiple posts..

Id also like to know how under modeled these FM's are..The SpitII takes away every advantage ive talked about above..the server i was just on i was 34 kills to 1 death using the SpitII, its no coincidence...

How near in performance is the spit Ia to the spitII? OR is the 109 under modeled as much as the spit 1a is?

More power means everything in the words of Scottie from Star Trek (the original might i add :P )

hopefully we wont be waiting long to find out

[Osprey]

In all the books I've read, all of the documentaries I've seen, in some 30-odd years of studying WWII, I've seen one picture of an E-1 purportedly flying during BoB. I would love to know where you get this information, please.

I'm not sure which books you are reading but this information is easily available, there's rough info even on wikipedia.

I'm with the threadstarter. I'm no master but I'm not crap either and I find my online experience often frustrating because red have inferior machines. If we had a Spit with a CSP then it would be a different matter, but we don't.

I'm not entirely convinced about the overheat either. The pilot notes in the Spit suggest you can run for 10 mins on fine pitch full boost, but you can't do this in game, you'll knacker the engine. The oil heat flies up very fast - is this realistic? I don't see the MkV's at Duxford blowing oil gaskets as they taxi around.
Seems you have to run with the rad fully open too. All in all it leads to inferior performance and I find that even with advantage all the 109 needs to do is run straight, they can take a whole magazine from astern - one luftie in our crew said he outran 2 Spitfires straight and level with oil over the screen and rudder only (thus slipping like hell) but still managed 470kmph. Another time I watched him fight 2 Spits for 5 mins with a wing on fire, he shot 1 down and got home safely.

It could just be me being lazy and not spending the time to test performance, it could be I don't get the best out of the aeroplane, but that has to be the same for others in 109's too and they don't seem to struggle. I am looking forward to the FM's getting an overhaul, the E-1's being introduced, the 12lbs boost and the CSP. I'm worried though that with the LW ego's getting a boost right now that when they are reeled in they will complain and 1C will bow to pressure and make inaccuracies in the FM's to appease them.

I don't care if the Spitfire is crap, I just want it accurate.

[agse10]

played multiplayer for the first time today.. jumped in a spit.. shot down 4-5 109s in one sortie.. I lost count... and someone said the spit is useless?

[Ze-Jamz]

played multiplayer for the first time today.. jumped in a spit.. shot down 4-5 109s in one sortie.. I lost count... and someone said the spit is useless?

No one said the Spit is useless..how can a fighter like that be useless..what were saying is it is underpowered..completely..

well done on your score..if you get a Spit with the proper power you get this:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/Jamz33/2011-05-24_00007.jpg

[EAF331 Starfire]

Its less durable than a hurricane and not too much faster, far less stable and completely useless for shooting down 109s. There is no reason to fly for the red side as far as I can see. Every advantage belongs to the blue with faster planes, deadlier guns and just general superiority. I was just in the syndicate server and there was like 15 blue and 5 red...I left because, well, wtf? Give us an aircraft capable of competeing with the 109 and I might decide to start playing again.

I think you post dispays a solo pilot attitude, so I suggest you join a virtual Sqd. Teamwork in inferior a/c make wonders for survival and kill ratio.

Before I joined an Alllied Sqd, I was a dedicated Axis Solo-pilot. By Axis I meen German. The Spit are looking mighty fine from the outside, but they were not build for War. Most Allied aircraft are designed as Aircrafts were guns are added later. The 109 and 190 are weapons of war. Crude but effective. Easy to manufacture (4.000 hours vs 13.000). Controls are more logical placed in the cockpit, more automation which leave more time for SA and powerfull guns which are centered for easier aiming and kills faster.

So why do I fly in an Allied Sqd?! Becouse people means more to me that aircraft, and because victories are more often won by the better pilot, not the plane.

Join us ;)

************************************************** ************************************
Build time:
Spitfire (1940) - 13.000 hours (Source: Britain 1939-1945: The Economic Cost of Strategic Bombing, by John Fahey.)
Hurricane (1940) - 10.300 hours
Bf109 (1940) - 4.000 Hours (Source: The most dangerous enemy by Stephen Bungay)
Bf109 (1942) - 3.500 hours
Fw190 (1942) - 5.400 hours
P-51A (1941) - 12.000 hours
P-51 (1945) - 2.077 hours
B-17 (1942) - 54.800 hours
B-17 (1944) - 18.600 hours

[ZaltysZ]

What are you going to do? he can extend quicker than you which gives the 109 an advantage in getting more altitude than you depending on how high you are this advantage widens, I wouldn't fancy your chance Med to High Alt and at Co Alt with a 109, you will find yourself evading more than the 109 unless he's made a mistake, sure you can dive but your compress quicker anyway aswell as being slower in that dive.

Well, Spit I vs BF has almost the same problems as BF vs Spit II (except that BF also turns poorly). You either rely on higher initial E state or on lesser skill of enemy.

[Danelov]

Well , the point to remember and take in count always is : Spitfire fight better in the horizontal, turn better and close , 109 in the vertical, hit and run. Both planes weakest point is the radiator system, a good placed bullet in the radiator and the plane is on the way to go down. Also for the 109 ,the landing gear is very weakest. Some estimations speak of ca 20 % of the 109 production loss in landing accidents after the fragil landing gear. Messerschmitt was very skilled for gliders and so but the nightmare with the landing gear was always a great problem for him, and shortly later the disaster struck in full him with the failure of the Me 210, also with landing gear problems(and many others).

[l3uLLDoZeR]

I actually prefer to fly the hurricane on the SYN server. I can cruise 20-30 mph faster...and with the variable pitch prop it lets me fine tune more than the 2 stage on the spit. I just cruise around with the canopy open so I can see better, those metal bars always get in the way. It's still not as fast as 109/110, but it works much better than dragging an anchor around with the spit Ia!

[skouras]

the spit is an excellent fighter;)
but i prefer the 109:-)

[Blackdog_kt]

Well, Spit I vs BF has almost the same problems as BF vs Spit II (except that BF also turns poorly). You either rely on higher initial E state or on lesser skill of enemy.

Exactly. I'm not much of an online flier (i used to fly in multiplayer for a few weeks every couple of months) but whenever i was online i would use the Fw-190A.

What some complain about is how i spent all my years with IL2, getting bounced by faster aircraft that can fly higher and being unable to follow them. Well, guess what, it's still possible to score kills against them and i'm far from a hotshot, ace or something similar. Think, apply some geometry and plan ahead, instead of relying on performance alone.

[klem]

I actually prefer to fly the hurricane on the SYN server. I can cruise 20-30 mph faster...and with the variable pitch prop it lets me fine tune more than the 2 stage on the spit. I just cruise around with the canopy open so I can see better, those metal bars always get in the way. It's still not as fast as 109/110, but it works much better than dragging an anchor around with the spit Ia!

+1 and I get kills. Depends on the pilot of course.

The Spit needs the Constant Speed Prop! It was available during the BoB and fitted for several Squadrons.


EDIT: And it needs 100 Octane.

[TomcatViP]

Ok guys why don't you accept that early war planes had used... early technologies.

I know I miss too my own board radar, my HUD and Helmet sight system but... CoD provide us with a unique sim depicting a very narrow windows of history where the line of history where written in bloods by a bunch of flyers. What else Flying Sim fan shld ask more ?

Can't ppl stop crying after their lost ego (IL2 Ninja's) and accept the true balance of weapons.

If you hve some mental difficulties flying a two prop fighters or a plane that can only dominate its opponents by a very narrow margin after builing a Tac advantage, pls feel free to join the other side of the channel where lies the so called über.

I wld gladly fly your left hurry and Spit up to the glorious skies.

We alrdy hve lost a representative pitch setting on the 109 due to cte red whining. What 's lyes now ahead... ?

i am begging devs not to fall in the RoF syndrome : hold down the mast - don't give ears to the siren's singing !

[609_Huetz]

Ok guys why don't you accept that early war planes had used... early technologies.

I know I miss too my own board radar, my HUD and Helmet sight system but... CoD provide us with a unique sim depicting a very narrow windows of history where the line of history where written in bloods by a bunch of flyers.

Can't ppl stop crying after their lost ego (IL2 Ninja's) and accept the true balance of weapons.

If you hve some mental difficulties flying a two prop fighters or a plane that can only dominate its opponents by a very narrow margin after builing a Tac advantage, pls feel free to join the other side of the channel where lies the so called über.

I wld gladly fly your left hurry and Spit up to the glorious skies.

We alrdy hve lost a representative pitch setting on the 109 due to cte red whining. What 's lyes now ahead... ?

i am begging devs not to fall in the RoF syndrome : hold down the mast - don't give ears to the siren's singing !
Sorry, but spare us the "red/blue whining" threads. People in here are not asking for a uber Spit or a uber Hurri, just as much as they do not want a uber 109. The point is asking (and getting asap) historical performance for each and every single plane.

The Spit MkIs in the BoB had a CSP, model it! The Hurricane was not faster than the Spit IRL, model it! The 109's prop pitch was faster, model it!

Also, your attack against RoF is totally untrue and uncalled for.

[TomcatViP]

LoL RoF FM models are disastrous.

I was a Fan as it went on stage even ordering it at high price abroad to get it as soon as it was available.

Early FM were so good it was a real pleasure to fight... And then came the squads with their radio ctrld fight (RoF devs took so much time modeling pilot hand signs but they don't care : they jus want to play their own way).

Soon we started to see new british planes beeing added such Se5 or Camels with their perfs à la IL2's Spitfire that can accelerate like a rocket or output E like a Japanese nuclear reactor (well they are all the same :().

I stopped playing the thing when I was chased by an entire squad of SE5 perfectly coordinated following my moves .... in a thick clouds !

And I know those guys.

Now RoF is back packed on the shelf aside WoP : a 120€ waste of money :evil:

That's what lies ahead here. I can see it like a spit in my visor ;) .

By the way when ppl are battling to get a marginal plane modeled with marginal fuel to fight a series representative E3..... I call this red whining.

If you were fighting to get out the bomb racks of the 109 or asked for less range (this engine is not a Mercedes design - it came out of a Toyota Prius !) I wld hve been on your side.

[Danelov]

Always in theme prop, the order come from Jun 9, 1940 to change for a constant speed props in all Spitfires and Hurricanes. The works was supervised by the Havilland experts in each airfield and by Aug 15 1940, 1050 props were fitted.
Before this date, 54th Sqd had operated at Hornchurch as early Dec 1939 with Spitfires equipped with constant speed props.

[609_Huetz]

Get a few history books, the SE5 was a superb overall plane in climb, speed and very rugged and manouverable at high speeds. While the Camel is too fast in game currently, this is being worked on AFAIK.

AI following through clouds is not only an issue on RoF, you will see that in IL2, CloD, or virtually any other flight-sim out there.

When a Spitfire is slower than the Hurricane and the 109's prop pitch is so slow, that I can have dinner, light a cigarette and go out with my girlfriend until it is from coarse to fine, then something's wrong. The same thing goes for Jabo 109s that happily outclimb and -run Spits with their bombs still attached.

The same history thing goes for CloD: The later 109 E models had only a marginal (if any) performance superiority over the BoB Spitfires. Not what we're seeing in game currently. There's a reason why 109 E pilots were advised to work with their wingmen when taking on Spitfires.

I am glad though that Luthier announced the FM fixes in his recent posts, maybe it's time for you to shelve CloD then as well. I don't think you will like what you will see: history.

[TomcatViP]

... the SE5 was a superb overall plane in climb, speed and very rugged and manouverable at high speeds.
Absolutely wrong in 1917


While the Camel is too fast in game currently, this is being worked on AFAIK.

lol after more than a year ? by the way I don't care for the speed its the E. Even an educated reader like you shld know that.


AI following through clouds is not only an issue on RoF


I was not talking abt AI not even mention any "I" at all. That's what is saden me:(


When a Spitfire is slower than the Hurricane and the 109's prop pitch is so slow, that I can have dinner, light a cigarette and go out with my girlfriend

Why not take an history book and refine your knowledge.


I am glad though that Luthier announced the FM fixes in his recent posts, maybe it's time for you to shelve CloD then as well. I don't think you will like what you will see: history.
Typical red whining end result.

[609_Huetz]

So what exactly are you referring to? The SE5 modeled in RoF is the version with the 200hp Viper engine, nothing wrong with that. It does exactly what it should. Even the early SE5 versions where (marginally) faster than any Alb D.xx series fighter and had no trouble outclimbing them.

The same goes for the Camel, other than the topspeed, there's nothing wrong with it. Especially when you take a bit of fuel up to altitude. Everything except the topspeed matches historical references and data. The E retention issues you experienced are a problem with people gaming the game, nothing wrong with the sim. It's just the same as in IL2 with people flying around on bingo fuel to gain an advantage.

The same goes for the clouds, what do you excpect them to be? White walls? FYI they are not made of concrete but of water. Things don't just vanish in them you know. In comparison to RoF, as much as I hate to say it, clouds in CloD look like they came directly out of the stone age.

Then again, you're implying that the Hurricane was faster as the Spit or that the 109s PP was that slow? Seriously, you must be kidding.

As I said, there's no red whining involved, but you can be damn sure that people interested in simulations will do everything they can to get the devs to fix it to historical data, not to someone's personal likings. That goes for both sides of the fence.

[flyingblind]

Google 'Battle of Britain: The real story'. It's quite an interesting BBC documentary on BoB with actual pilot accounts and appraisels of the planes, tactics and weapons as well as an indepth look at what when on behind the scenes at a logistical and tactical level. This part in particular highlighted the fact that it wasn't the Spitfire being a better plane that won the battle but the way in which it was used and the backup behind it. That and some crass blunders by Goering.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Well, what I hope for is that they fix the FMs to finally get historic performance, the Spit 2a being apparently the only one getting correct performance. So I guess we should rather focus on what performance the planes should be instead of focussing how wrong in comparison they are, because we already know that they are wrong.

In doing so we should look at each plane separately and not comparing. Ideally when putting the correct data into game for each plane we will end up with correct relative performance.

[609_Huetz]

Well, what I hope for is that they fix the FMs to finally get historic performance, the Spit 2a being apparently the only one getting correct performance. So I guess we should rather focus on what performance the planes should be instead of focussing how wrong in comparison they are, because we already know that they are wrong.

In doing so we should look at each plane separately and not comparing. Ideally when putting the correct data into game for each plane we will end up with correct relative performance.
This.

[Orpheus]

On a sort-of related note, has anyone noticed that the Spitfire fuel gauges never seem to move? In all other planes, after flying for a while you can see the fuel decrease... but in the spit, I always seem to land with a full tank?

[609_Huetz]

On a sort-of related note, has anyone noticed that the Spitfire fuel gauges never seem to move? In all other planes, after flying for a while you can see the fuel decrease... but in the spit, I always seem to land with a full tank?

That's because the needle on displays a part of the fuel you actually have on board. If you take her for a spin at i.e. 50% you will notice quite a bit of movement.

[TomcatViP]

Huez I don't know what you are talking abt but I would be pleased if yu are not turning me like a stupid by making wrong suggestion in your answer.

But I can see your frustration that appropriate tactics can lead to superior fighting even in a slightly inf plane. I hve seen that quite a lot of time with some online pilots in the past years.

To make it short (as I don't think there is any interest in CoD for this)

Wake up your brain you'll see that you don't need all those junkie's Mods to get some success.

~S!

[609_Huetz]

Well, go ahead an elaborate your thoughts a bit then since you were the one suggesting that I'd get a history book for calling out the flaws in both side's FMs.

Until then, you can be happyly assured that there's no frustration involved, in 120 hours online I have yet to be shot down in MP.

Where your mods assumption comes from is by the way mystery we will never be able to resolve.

[Widowmaker214]

why fly a spit?
(been flying a Mk1a online)
cause so far, 109 pilots seem to want to try and turn fight with me.
:)

[klem]

That's because the needle on displays a part of the fuel you actually have on board. If you take her for a spin at i.e. 50% you will notice quite a bit of movement.

Fuel is carried in two tanks, one above the other, the lower being self-sealing in later Mk Is and in all Mk IIs. They are located forward of the cockpit and fuel is delivered to the engine by an engine driven pump. Tank capacities are: upper - 48 Imperial gallons; lower - 37 Imperial gallons.
The lower tank supplies fuel to the engine and the top tank feeds into the lower tank. There should actually be two fuel cocks, one for each tank, located where the single one is in CoD.

Normally the fuel gauge didn't read anything and you would press the BOTT TANK button to read its contents but in CoD it's 'pressed' continuously. All the time the gauge reading is 'full' you know you still have fuel in the top tank with a full bottom tank. If you select say 30% fuel before takeoff you'll see the reduced reading on the gauge - about 25 gallons in the bottom tank.

There is a fuel cock missing, I guess one fuel cock does both tanks, but I can live with that (although Main and Reserve fuel cock positions are modelled in the Hurricane!).