Spitfire IIa in BOB??!???! NO 109 E4 ?!!?!

[Winger]

Why is that. Any explanation devs? I cant really think of a plausible one...

Winger

[janpitor]

E4 will be added in a short time together with the E1. And the IIa was there in a limited number

[fruitbat]

While i agree that the E4 should be in, and even more so the E1 if you look at the actual numbers (for a large proportion of the battle the E1 was the most common type despite what many lufty types want to believe), the Spit MkII took part is reasonable numbers as well (although obviously not as many as the E4).

First delivery, P7282 arrived at 61 squadron on 22 aug, and a total of 195 had been accepted into operational service by the battles traditional October date as the end of BoB.

Tis a mystery why the devs choose the E3 instead of an E1 and an E4 though.

Course its a mystery why we have a two stage prop spit, unless we're talking about Dunkirk (but then no E1 to oppose so....)

Not to mention why the Spit Ia isn't running 100 octane.

All in all, is BoB, without the right planes full stop.

[BlackbusheFlyer]

During the BoB some squadrons got the benefit of the IIa , 611, 66, 92 squadrons received them in August. At the end of the BoB all MkI's were relegated to OTU's and by Winter 1940 all operational spitfires were MKII.

Leutnant Steinhilper (2/JG) talks about the MKIIa in his account of the BoB professing their superiority over their E4's.

[Blackdog_kt]

Currently the Spit Mk.I variants all have the two-stage prop used in the battle of France. The Mk.II has the constant speed prop, so it evens things out.

That being said, when they do add the E4 with the improved cannon shells it would be nice if they also correct the Spitfire discrepancies. The Mk.I represents a BoF era aircraft and the Mk.Ia is supposed to represent the BoB standard with a CSP, but currently while the model displays the correct prop and spinners, the in-game flight model uses a two-stage prop.

At this point most of the FMs need tweaking anyway, so it's more of a naming convention to differentiate between CSP and non-CSP Spits. When the FMs get tuned (developers said that once they finish with the optimizations in frame rates that's their next point of focus, so i'd say in 2-3 patches), all fighters can fly high without engine misfires and the advantages of the Luftwaffe fighters at high altitude become apparent, then it will be a good point to give the Mk.Ia its CSP.

Better yet, we could have CSP and two-stage prop variants for the Mk.I as well (like it currently happens with the hurricane, we have Hurri with DH prop and the same Hurri with a Rotol prop and it's clearly marked that way in the interface). This way we can choose the correct aircraft for each scenario/campaign/online mission and have the ability to recreate BoF as well as BoB.

When all of this is done, then it's up to the mission designers in online servers to limit the amount of the high performance planes to a percentage that's representative of what historically happened, so that the majority of people will be flying Spit Mk.Is and 109E1s and E4s, instead of everybody cruising around in the more rare birds like Spit Mk.IIs and 109s with DB601N engines (if we end up getting an E-7).

[ElAurens]

With all the RAF planes stuck with low octane fuel and incorrect props on the Spits anyway I don't see the reason for the E4 whine. Oh wait, I forgot, it's about the points online.

:rolleyes:

The E1 should be the first addition to the Luftwaffe anyway for reasons previously stated.

[Winger]

With all the RAF planes stuck with low octane fuel and incorrect props on the Spits anyway I don't see the reason for the E4 whine. Oh wait, I forgot, it's about the points online.

:rolleyes:

The E1 should be the first addition to the Luftwaffe anyway for reasons previously stated.

As for current online gaming. flying the 109 against the spit IIa is absolutely pointless since it cand do anything better than the spit. I have had really great fights against rotol hurricanes. Both had advantages. The one that uses the advantages of his plane better is the winner. 109 against Spit IIa there are no chances at all for the 109 pilot but to catch the spit by surprise. And even then if its not utterly damaged it can still just kill the 109. Those are not 2 planes that should fight against each other.

Winger

[VO101_Tom]

I think it the primary thing would be the equalisation of the time line, in which the RAF has a huge benefit currently.

The present most modern luftwaffe fighter with these not armoured cocpit, DB 601 engine and MG-FF weapon enters service in early 1939, in Spanish Civil War* There are not an additional modification or a development on LW fighter.

The first Spitfire Mk II enters in service in Aug 1940. The Germans got the 109 E-7 in the same month. An Bf 109 E-4, DB 601/N engine and a MG-FF/M cannon were received already on the same summer. From E-4 the German airplanes were equipped with Armoured cocpit, automatic prop pitch and automatic water radiator system, and C3 (100 octane) fuel (to /N engine). I mention the most important ones only.

100 octane fuel to Spits? Yes, because RAF used it. No doubt. Constant speed props to all Spits? Yes, yes because RAF used it. DB601/N engines to E-7? No, because LW used it only small numbers? Come on guys, you believe it this correct? No need trick with numbers, only matter: existed, or did not exist (if we ran forward this much already into the time to Spit II).



*"Early in the year (1939) J/88 had recieved 40 new cannon-armed Bf 109 E fighters, and the outdated early marks were passed to Gruppo 5-G-5. On 5 March Mölders's replacement as leader of 3 Staffel." (Osprey Airwar3 - Christopher Shores: Spanish Civil War Air Forces, page 42)

[fruitbat]

*"Early in the year (1939) J/88 had recieved 40 new cannon-armed Bf 109 E fighters, and the outdated early marks were passed to Gruppo 5-G-5. On 5 March Mölders's replacement as leader of 3 Staffel." (Osprey Airwar3 - Christopher Shores: Spanish Civil War Air Forces, page 42)

Lol, JG52 got there first 2, read it 2, cannon armed 109's in mid september 1940.

i can get you a quote for that to.

fact is, majority of BoB was 12llbs spit 1's and hurris with CSP with Spit II's turning up in numbers in sept, v bf109E1's the majority at the start, and E4's by the end, with a smattering of E7's at the end as well.

[VO101_Tom]

Lol, JG52 got there first 2, read it 2, cannon armed 109's in mid september 1940.

i can get you a quote for that to.

Please, it would be good if you would grant the source.

fact is, majority of BoB was 12llbs spit 1's and hurris with CSP with Spit II's turning up in numbers in sept, v bf109E1's the majority at the start, and E4's by the end, with a smattering of E7's at the end as well.

How many planes flew - This is the map makers, mission makers' task. What is important for the dev team: existed or did not exist.

[Sven]

fact is, majority of BoB was 12llbs spit 1's and hurris with CSP with Spit II's turning up in numbers in sept, v bf109E1's the majority at the start, and E4's by the end, with a smattering of E7's at the end as well.

Yes, fact, so they should all be in this sim. Looking forward to the missing E1 E4 and E7.

[fruitbat]

Please, it would be good if you would grant the source.



How many planes flew - This is the map makers, mission makers' task. What is important for the dev team: existed or did not exist.

Source, Ulrich Steinhilper, Spitfire on my tail.

Steinhilper (he was the no2) and the leader whose name escapes me got to fly them, don't have my copy at the moment, can't remember the others name.

Up until then, they were all on E1's.

also, i've posted this loads of times already, but here we go again,

Hooton in Eagle in Flames gives the percentage losses of 109s by subtype:

July
E1 - 44%
E3 - 30%
E4 - 20%

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

September
E1 - 38%
E3 - 1%
E4 - 61%

October
E1 - 36%
E3 - 2%
E4 - 62%

and from Kurfust, over at ubi a while ago,

"I have some actual numbers. On 31 August 1940, fighter units (excluding JG 77) reported 375 E-1s, 125 E-3s, 339 E-4s and 32 E-7s on strength, indicating that most of the E-3s had been already converted to E-4 standard. JG 77 had around 100-125 aircraft with it, but for the rest of the units, its 75% cannon E-3/4/7, the rest are all MG E-1s. The E-1 and E-3 were produced parallel and in about equal numbers from the end of 1938, but by mid-1940, the production of the E-1 stopped, replaced by the E-4 and then the E-7."


Don't disagree at all that it would be nice to see them all though, and let the mission builders build the missions around them.

However, the E7 would be the last on my list in order 'to do', due to the limited numbers it flew in BoB.

I'd still like it though, not as much as an E1 and then an E4 though.

What i don't want, and is what will happen on some severs is them full of spitII's and E7's, as thats not BoB.

First up, it would just be nice to have a proper hurri, spit and 109 of any type performing correctly.....

[Sven]

First up, it would just be nice to have a proper hurri, spit and 109 of any type performing correctly.....

+ 1 after that we can think about the future ;)

[VO101_Tom]

Ok. I misunderstood your earlier sentence according to these:

Lol, JG52 got there first 2, read it 2, cannon armed 109's in mid september 1940.
i can get you a quote for that to.


I thought, you say that LW did not use an MG-FF (or /M) earlier at this (sept 1940). They used cannon on E-3, and E-4 too. It is apparent from the list purely that these types flew early.
(I have these databases too, Kurfurst (aka VO101_Isegrim) my squad-mate :) )


However, the E7 would be the last on my list in order 'to do', due to the limited numbers it flew in BoB.

Why would it be necessary to claim an order? One of the historical facts less important than the other one? At one of the airplanes important the type of the propeller, a whole series does not count at other one? :)
(only interest, if the numbers count, for what the E-3? Why not E-1 or E-4? Much more were flying from these, than E-3)

[BRIGGBOY]

+ 1 after that we can think about the future ;)

+1 about having a proper modled hurri, spit and 109 before we start whining about other planes

[fruitbat]

Ok. I misunderstood your earlier sentence according to these:


I thought, you say that LW did not use an MG-FF (or /M) earlier at this (sept 1940). They used cannon on E-3, and E-4 too. It is apparent from the list purely that these types flew early.
(I have these databases too, Kurfurst (aka VO101_Isegrim) my squad-mate :) )


Why would it be necessary to claim an order? One of the historical facts less important than the other one? At one of the airplanes important the type of the propeller, a whole series does not count at other one? :)
(only interest, if the numbers count, for what the E-3? Why not E-1 or E-4? Much more were flying from these, than E-3)

yeah i know there was plenty of cannon armed 109's around from the start, but i also know there was plenty of machine gun ones too, all through the battle;)

as to an order, it just makes sense to me to do the main players before the bit players, thats all.

But then as i have said many times on these boards, i'm mystified by the choices the devs made on release!

personally, i'd of done the E1 and E4 right form the off, and don't really understand the choice of the E3 instead because of the numbers like you say, but hey, thats just me.

If it had been up to me it would of been, SpitI 12lbs CSP, Hurri 12lbs CSP, Bf109E1, Bf109E4, Bf110C4.

then SpitIIa followed by Bf109E7.

[JG53Frankyboy]

E-7 would realy make the less sence !
as its fueltank ability was not used during the "typical" BoB time till end of october....
and with bombs its nothing else than a Bf109E-4/B

and a MG-FF/M in game would also be important to give the Bf110C-4&-7 their correct canons !!

[BRIGGBOY]

E-7 would realy make the less sence !
as its fueltank ability was not used during the "typical" BoB time till end of october....
and with bombs its nothing else than a Bf109E-4/B

and a MG-FF/M in game would also be important to give the Bf110C-4&-7 their correct canons !!

exactly lets get the planes we already have as realistic as possible before adding anymore. after all is this not a sim.

[ATAG_Dutch]

after all is this not a sim.

Huh?:confused:

[CUJO_1970]

JG 26 never flew a single mission in BoB with an E3, so if you want to build an accurate JG 26 campaign you can't really do it.

When they arrived in France they did so with the E4 with the MG FF/M cannon, seat and back armor and an armored windshield. They were also equipped with a smaller number of 109E4/N high-altitude aircraft and they did fight with these in the Battle.

Also, enlisted pilots flew some E1 until October.

Overall, it seems E4 was used more than E1 and E3 combined and it is the most common 109 for BoB. So, in order of importance we need:

1. Bf109 E4 with MG FF/M
2. Bf109 E1
3. Bf109 E4/N

It is a real head-scratcher that these aircraft aren't in.

The MG FF/M will also give the 110s an even greater punch.

I sure don't see where an E7 is needed if we speak about BoB only - it can wait 'til later.

[Al Schlageter]

For a company that claims the most accurate game out there, I don't understand why the a/c versions are not correct, the proper fuel is not correct and the props are not correct. It is not like there is a lack of info, be sure.

To much time spent on the bling?

[BRIGGBOY]

For a company that claims the most accurate game out there, I don't understand why the a/c versions are not correct, the proper fuel is not correct and the props are not correct. It is not like there is a lack of info, be sure.

To much time spent on the bling?

+1

[BRIGGBOY]

Huh?:confused:

all though the bf 110 is not a plane i will fly(or any other germann plane) i want this sim to be as accurate as possible. other people will want to fly the german planes so why should they lose out. and to be honest i want to shoot down a gerry that is as realistic as possible. don't you?