109s autoprop - did it ever existed?

[pupo162]

Hi all

genuine question. throw some time in 1946 i was led to believe germans had on their planes some sort of CSP wich managed them to control automatic the all engine with a single leaver.

could someone enlighten me, if such a thing ever existed in any 109, or if what the 109 had was what we have in game now, a manual pitch prop.


cheers!

[JG53Frankyboy]

mid 1940 was just a time when both systems were used....

[pupo162]

mid 1940 was just a time when both systems were used....

Could you pelase tell me what system were this an how did they work? or link me to them ? thank you

[JG53Frankyboy]

well, the manual system you have in CoD now and a "one lever" system where each rpm was "locked" to a special ATA setting, such combinations were called "Leistungszustand".The automatic controlled the propeller pitch to achive that.,

This automatic could still be 'overwritten' manually by the pilot if desired.

[JG14_Jagr]

When you see how complex and pilot intensive all that is you can see why the Fw190 was such a difference animal with the "automatic" engine controls..

[IvanK]

Auto function in the case of the 109E came in to general operational use in late 1940. The earliest reference I have seen is Sep 18 1940 when it was being tested in a machine of II/JG53. The 109E in the RAF museum Hendon was Field Modded to AUTO it is an E3B I believe. It was brought down on 27 Nov 1940. Steinhilper's book "A Spitfire on my tail" refers specifically to Manual prop pitch technique still being used as late as Sept 1940. There is a translated OKL document discussing the introduction of AUTO on the 109E its subject header is "Increasing the revs of engine types DB601A and DB601N. It is hand dated 14Th Nov 1940.

Here is an image of the translated document :

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6518/bf109eautopitch.jpg

[Kurfurst]

Auto function in the case of the 109E came in to general operational use in late 1940. The earliest reference I have seen is Sep 18 1940 when it was being tested in a machine of II/JG53. The 109E in the RAF museum Hendon was Field Modded to AUTO it is an E3B I believe. It was brought down on 27 Nov 1940. Steinhilper's book "A Spitfire on my tail" refers specifically to Manual prop pitch technique still being used as late as Sept 1940. There is a translated OKL document discussing the introduction of AUTO on the 109E its subject header is "Increasing the revs of engine types DB601A and DB601N. It is hand dated 14Th Nov 1940.

I note it here, too before someone starts a new myth.. ;)

The information regarding the date of availibilty of the auto function is wrong.

The Bf 109E1 and E-3 manual of December 1939 already notes the automatic system (Verstellautomatik), and gives different operating instructions to those planes with the old manual system ("Options 1 and 2") and the auto prop pitch system.

Auto and manual props pitch systems also had differently designated VDM propellor type numbers.

[IvanK]

Do you have documentation Kurfurst that shows operational employment of the Auto function rather than early test data ? I would be happy to be proven wrong. I have indicated in my post general operational employment not that it didn't exist in some form prior to that.

[Pluto]

... I remeber in the old IL2 you could change from automatic pitch to manual pitch control in the ME109, even the early Emils.
But it was not advisable to control pitch manually, it quickly turned too high and busted your engine, so I always flew the 109 with auto-pitch-control.

Which one is more realistic, I dont know, anyway you get used to both.
:)

[JG53Frankyboy]

not only Prien is talking of this testing of a automatik in his JG53 History book.

http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/AutopitchJG53.jpg

Also Steinhilper is mentioning in his book how the pilots handled thier manual propellers in their 109s.

[Kurfurst]

Do you have documentation Kurfurst that shows operational employment of the Auto function rather than early test data ? I would be happy to be proven wrong.

The first known documentation of automatic propellor pitch (Luftschauben Verstellautomatik) control appears in late 1939, in the L.Dv. 556/3 (Entwurf) BF 109 E Flugzeughandbuch, promulageted 16 December, 1939, Berlin.

This is the operational handbook for the Bf 109E, not some test report. It instructs the pilots how to use the systems of the aircraft.

The Handbook takes numerous notes on the operation of the Luftschauben Verstellautomatik in various conditions, and also notes that some aircraft are without this automatic system. Ie.

Page 17, I. Startferigmachen, Step 7.
' Prüfe, ob Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik eingeschaltet ist (Kippschalteran linker Rumpfwand; Selbstschalter in Schalttfel. '

Page 18, IV. Flug, C. Betriebsdaten.
' Bei Flugzeugen ohne Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik, Luftschraubensteigung durch Daumenschalter am Gashebel oder Verstellschraubeschalter am Gerätebrett so einstellen, daß die verstehend angegeben Werte für Drehzahl und Ladedruck eingeschalten werden. 1,3 ata und 2400 U/min nicht überschreiten!'
' Für Sperrflug Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik auschalten, (Kippschalter an linker Rumpfwand) und Luftschraubensteigung durch Daumschalter am Gashebel oder Verstellscraubenschalter am Gerätebrett einstellen.'

Page 20, V. Landung, Step 2., and VI. Verhalten in besonderen Fällen, A. Durchstarten, Step 1:
' Bei Flugzeugen ohne Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik, Luftschraubensteigung durch Daumenschalter am Gashebel oder Verstellschraubeschalter am Gerätebrett auf 12 Uhr. '

Page 21, VI. Verhalten in besonderen Fällen, C. Versagen der Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik, Step 1.
' Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik durch Kippschalter an linker Rumpfwand auschalten. '

Page 21, VI. Verhalten in besonderen Fällen, D. Notlandung, Step 3.
' Luftschaube in Segelflug : Luftschrauben-Verstellautomatik durch Kippschalter an linker Rumpfwand auschalten, und Luftschraube durch Daumenschalter am Gashebel oder Verstellschraubeschalter am Gerätebrett in Segelflug bringen. '

I have indicated in my post general operational employment not that it didn't exist in some form prior to that.

General operational employment - ie. that its not only 'experienced with' or something like that - is indicated by the fact that they issued an operating manual about how to use it. Obviously the system was installed into aircraft. The manual came in December 1939, although AUTO might have been around earlier, but we are not aware of it.

Of course the 109E has been in production for over a year by that time, with more than a thousend produced, so I presume that many that were produced during 1938 and some in 1939 only had the manual system, and these aircraft were still in use with some Gruppen, for example the noted use in II/JG 53.

IMO two random accounts (one from I./JG 52, one from II./JG 53) do not cast any serious doubt that a system that was introduced at least 10 months before was not yet in general operational use. It shows that I./JG 52 and II./JG 53 did not had it, for some time.
Its rather safe to assume that all new production aircraft had it (for example Emils produced in 1940), while the older machines were gradually retrofitted with the system.

[IvanK]

By general operational employment I am referring to general Squadron use, i.e. How many aircraft were equipped with it and at what date. Most publications on the 109 refer to Auto as a late 1940 introduction.

the JG53 account above is a typical example... "17 Sept 1940". As are the references to it in the book Messerschmit BF109 Recognition Manual by Marco Fernandez-Sommerau page 103:

"A significant improvement from mid 1940 was the adoption of an electro-mechanic automatic pitch regulator ..."

The AJ Press publication on the "ME 109" Pt 1 page 46 refers to it being tested in "Summer 1940".

The RAF and French test reports on the E3. The RAF handling notes on the E3 all refer to the non auto version.... though I presume these are all based on the same aircraft.

The Translated document referring to its initial introduction of auto.... "has been introduced" , though I accept the hand written date on the document isn't iron clad.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6518/bf109eautopitch.jpg

Steinhilper's book "Spitfire on my tail" refers to manual prop pitch use in Sept 1940 and the difficulty on training new pilots on the technique to use it to maximise performance.

So I am not so sure its "Its rather safe to assume that all new production aircraft had it (for example Emils produced in 1940), while the older machines were gradually retrofitted with the system." Late 1940 production I would agree with as I would for earlier aircraft being retro fitted.

The general thrust from various sources is that general operational (i.e. squadron) use of auto didn't occur until late 1940. Thats not to say that Auto didn't exist conceptually or limited use prior to then. Based on the general knowledge it would seem that Manual was the most common system until at least Sept 1940 i.e. the Main accepted time line of the Battle of Britain.

In the end we are then discussing how all this info translates to COD use. So far the E3 and E3B are the Manual system. I would anticipate the E4 and later models when they come to be equipped with the Auto system. A datal based system could also be applied to E3's allowing Auto use post Sept/Oct 1940 ? . An intermediate step might also include the Rocker switch on the throttle with Manual as well.

Kurfurst what is the exact date of the Handbook and or its last amendment date from which you refer ?

[JG53Harti]

Kurfurst what is the exact date of the Handbook and or its last amendment date from which you refer ?


The book is dated Dec 1939.
Zweites Teilheft - Betriebsanleitung

Startklarmachen - F
Point 3 and 4

@IvanK - I sended a pm to you

[heloguy]

I think it's important to remember that date of manufacture, and date of field employment are probably very different things. Hell, it's still that way today with A/C mods in the U.S. military. It's very likely that even though the auto prop mod was on new machines, those machines were probably slow to filter to the working units. Same with the retro fit

In any case, the best option is to have it selectable as another airframe. The rocker switch on the throttle could also be another variant given that we have anthromorphic control as an option, although I suspect this was part of the auto mod. Either way, as far as online, servers could set how many of each type are available. Offline, the user could choose or be assigned which type according to rank, or availability (if we get a dynamic campaign).

[Blackdog_kt]

In any case, the best option is to have it selectable as another airframe. The rocker switch on the throttle could also be another variant given that we have anthromorphic control as an option, although I suspect this was part of the auto mod. Either way, as far as online, servers could set how many of each type are available. Offline, the user could choose or be assigned which type according to rank, or availability (if we get a dynamic campaign).

Exactly my point of view as well. It's the exact same 3d model and most of the FM/DM, so there would be no reason not to have multiple variants. Same for the Hurris and Spits with fixed, two-stage and constant speed props.

Not all of these variants are relevant for a BoB situation, but it gives people all the right tools to recreate scenarios from early battle of France all the way to the end of the battle of Britain, seeing as we already have a sizeable map and ground units.

This also permits server admins to better regulate what is available for flying depending on the correct dates.

It could also be used in single player in a similar fashion to how the Fokker fighter works in IL2:1946, some have a telescopic gunsight,some don't and it's more or less random what you get with a probability based on the % of each variant historically used.

I think this is the best of both worlds and will prevent us from complaining about perceived bias in what side gets improved aircraft, with a minimal amount of effort on the part of the developers.

[JG53Harti]

the manual shows, when they first have written about the automatic, but not, when it was transfered to the fighter units

[Kurfurst]

By general operational employment I am referring to general Squadron use, i.e. How many aircraft were equipped with it and at what date.

Naturally it is quite impossible to tell without going into lenghts of possibly impossible scale of research.

We know however, that the auto prop pitch system was available and fitted to aircraft in late 1939 as per the manual though.

Most publications on the 109 refer to Auto as a late 1940 introduction. the JG53 account above is a typical example... "17 Sept 1940".

What makes it "typical"? It refers to the state of II/JG 53, nothing else.
Now, II./JG 53 (formed/renamed from II./JG133) was one of the first units to re-equip with Bf 109E (see 8 January LW strenght report: http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se8139.htm).

Obviously they had aircraft from the earliest Bf 109E batch produced late 1938, before automatic systems were introduced. I can't seem to find any great losses with this unit (in all strenght reports they seem to be up at near max. strenght), so - would it be really surprising that they had many of these earliest aircraft still in service in 1940 in their original state?


As are the references to it in the book Messerschmit BF109 Recognition Manual by Marco Fernandez-Sommerau page 103:

"A significant improvement from mid 1940 was the adoption of an electro-mechanic automatic pitch regulator ..."

The AJ Press publication on the "ME 109" Pt 1 page 46 refers to it being tested in "Summer 1940".

Which is why I don't like to rely on secondary sources. Some even state the E-3 wasn't produced until 'late 1939' or '1940', the problem is that factory deliveries show about two hundred produced by the end of 1938, and there are pictures of them from the Spanish Civil War..

Its simply a case where a secondary source (I have not seen either, so I can't comment on their general reliabilty) is demonstratibly false since there IS an Emil manual from December 1939 (which the writers were probably unaware of), that notes, in no uncertain terms that Bf 109E-1/E-3 are fitted with automatic prop pitch systems, while some, presumably earlier aircraft are not.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/109_stuff/Verstellautomatik_16Dec1939_Bf109E_.jpg

The RAF and French test reports on the E3. The RAF handling notes on the E3 all refer to the non auto version.... though I presume these are all based on the same aircraft.

Indeed its the same aircraft, captured, iirc, in November 1939, ie. before even the said manual would be issued. It had neither armor or auto prop pitch fitted, and naturally it wasn't refitted with these in Allied use, so IMHO its fairly irrevalent. ;)


The Translated document referring to its initial introduction of auto.... "has been introduced" , though I accept the hand written date on the document isn't iron clad.

The question is when it was introduced.

Steinhilper's book "Spitfire on my tail" refers to manual prop pitch use in Sept 1940 and the difficulty on training new pilots on the technique to use it to maximise performance.

Again, Steinhilper's experiences are valid to his unit only. He had obviously no overview over the rest of the Jagdgruppen.

He was belonging to the unit I./JG 52 (ex-I./JG 433), which, again, was one of the first JG to re-equip with 109E from the earliest batches, evidently during March-April 1939 (see:http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se13439.htm) The same applies as to the JG 53 account.


So I am not so sure its "Its rather safe to assume that all new production aircraft had it (for example Emils produced in 1940), while the older machines were gradually retrofitted with the system." Late 1940 production I would agree with as I would for earlier aircraft being retro fitted. The general thrust from various sources is that general operational (i.e. squadron) use of auto didn't occur until late 1940.

And this 'general thrust' stems from what?

Two Pilots from two Gruppen/Wings (with up to 70-80 109Es at their disposal) out of the 29 Gruppen plus their Stab (ca. 1100 109s) reported that their Gruppe's 109E's were only retrofitted/received new planes with Verstell Automatik in the automn 1939...?

How and why are these two Gruppen representative of the remaining 27 Gruppen...?

It's not only that, but we know from the December 1939 manual that the auto prop pitch system was already fitted to aircraft (why on Earth would be the aircraft manual instruct the pilots in its use otherwise..?).

Now, up to 31.08.1939, the following Bf 109Es were delivered:

522 E-1
603 E-3

Obviously these would be all with manual prop pitch.

By 30.06.1940 an additional

323 E-1s
533 E-3s
203 E-4s

were delivered in the meantime.

Now, if we accept that, as per the December 1939 manual, the auto prop pitch was introduced in the meantime, it would mean that literally hundreds were fitted with auto pitch well before the battle.

By 31.10.1940 an additional

55 E-1s
110 E-1Bs
75 E-3a (export)
47 E-4s
211 E-4/B
20 E-4/N
15 E-4/BN
186 E-7

were delivered. This latter (3rd) production block would refer exactly to the BoB period, during which 700+ Bf 109E were delivered. Either if we accept that auto was introduced in December 1939 (which is what the original manual says) or in June 1939 or around (which is what some books suggest), these are all auto prop pitch planes.


Thats not to say that Auto didn't exist conceptually or limited use prior to then. Based on the general knowledge it would seem that Manual was the most common system until at least Sept 1940 i.e. the Main accepted time line of the Battle of Britain.

My problem with this conclusion is that it assumes that after its December 1939 introduction to the 109E, the Germans, for some irrational reason, kept producing new planes with the old manual propellor system.
A notion that not only irrational, but also lacks any kind of evidence..

In the end we are then discussing how all this info translates to COD use. So far the E3 and E3B are the Manual system. I would anticipate the E4 and later models when they come to be equipped with the Auto system.

A datal based system could also be applied to E3's allowing Auto use post Sept/Oct 1940 ? . An intermediate step might also include the Rocker switch on the throttle with Manual as well.

It would be a perfect solution as far as there's selection for all possible combinations, but for two reasons I find it impractical to be implemented into the game:

1, By August 1940, most of the E-3s were converted to E-4s, so 'late retrofitted E-3s' are a non-issue IMHO, an E-4 would make a perfectly enough. OTOH, E-1s could problably use such a system, or seperate E-1 (when we get one).

2, Rocker switch on the throttle would need developer resources to implement, but in the end the player would keep pressing rpm increase/decrease button all the same, the only difference being animation..

Kurfurst what is the exact date of the Handbook and or its last amendment date from which you refer ?

It's L.Dv. 553/3 (Entwurf, ie. draft) Bf 109E Flugzeughandbuch mit Nachtrag für Bf 109T, Berlin, den 16. Dezember 1939. There are no amendments (from my experience these came as separate, add on sheets of paper attached to the end of the manual)

As a sidenote, it also mentions that aircraft armor is not yet shown in the weight tables, so it was introduced at that time as well.

I also have an "1939" Bf 109E manual of different kind, and one of the earlies ones from 1938, neither which mention the Auto prop pitch, so I am near certain that the feature was introduced with this manual.

[Kurfurst]

the manual shows, when they first have written about the automatic, but not, when it was transfered to the fighter units

So I guess the million dollar question would be why a new manual was issued in December 1939 instructing pilots in the proper operating of aircraft equipped with automatic propellor pitch control.. ;)

[JG53Harti]

the first manual of a 190 was dated in 1939 ;) Do you know when the 190 entered the war ?

[Kurfurst]

Seriously, I think it just boils down to this: the said 1939 manual clearly shows the automatic system was around by that time, and yes, it did not appear all the sudden, Jagdgruppen didn't just swap their old planes or sent them back to the factory. However I think given that during the 7-8 that has passed until the auto prop pitch was probably fitted to hundreds of 109s by that time, so it was IMHO fairly common.

[ATAG_Doc]

"the automatic device..."

What's that thing called again?

[JG53Frankyboy]

clear and easy by Daimler Benz: "Einhebelbedienung" :D

[pupo162]

clear and easy by Daimler Benz: "Einhebelbedienung" :D

i guess i will stick with the manual till i get my german fine tuned.


anyway, as the OP of htsi thread, i would like to thank everyone who made this clear to me, i would like to see Einhebel-auto prop-nung in Clod one day, but it isnt a game breaker to me that it isnt around yet.


cheers!

[IvanK]

The original image of the document came by way of a well known DB605 Engine restorer. Its exactly as I got it. I have a slightly clearer image (in PDF), in the date stamp group on the top right hand corner This says :

A.I. (T)
18 MAR 1942
TRANSLATED

So as I see it the document was translated and typed on 18 Mar 1942.
The hand written date is odd but I can only surmise that it refers to the
original date of the source document.