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View Full Version : Level stabilizer "fix" in the next patch? (To luthier)


Riksen
04-24-2011, 05:23 PM
Hi luthier...
Well i know u probably get PM all the time and there are several of them for u to read still (just guessing), but are u guys going to fix the level stabilizer on the He-111 any time soon? I mean, i see patch after patch coming out, which is great, but none of them contain a fix to the level stabilizer. I just love flying bombers and this is pretty much the sole reason i like il-2, but the lack of a level stabilizer just makes impossible to level bomb in the COD.
So if im not asking too much, could u guys fix that in the next patch or tell me when that is going to be fixed??

Thxs

Blackdog_kt
04-26-2011, 07:39 PM
There is already a level autopilot. Set the gyro compass to the magnetic compass heading, then align the desired heading on the gyrocompass with the actual one so that the plane doesn't drift off course when you engage the autopilot. Finally, switch on the autopilot in course mode. It takes a few seconds for the gyroscopic system to stabilize, but it does fly level after that and you can also command it to make small turns and corrections by changing your desired heading in the gyro-compass.

Known issues:
1) The gyro-compass doesn't work in the Ju88, so you can't use this method. It's a known bug and we are waiting for a fix in a patch. It works fine in the 111 and in the 110.
2) It seems that even if you align the actual and intended headings, it still takes some turns to stabilize. When it does, it seems like it's off by some 5-10 degrees. I don't know if this is a bug or a realistic limitation of the gyroscopic autopilot system.

For the blenheim and br.20 it's harder because they don't have an autopilot. However, they also don't have a sensitive gyro-bombsight. If you trim them well you can fly them from the bomber's seat manually and drop bombs that way.

I hope this helps. I think the current system is more realistic (if a bit buggy at present) but having the level stabilizer for lower difficulty settings would be good too.

PissyChrissy
05-15-2011, 09:55 PM
There is already a level autopilot. Set the gyro compass to the magnetic compass heading, then align the desired heading on the gyrocompass with the actual one so that the plane doesn't drift off course when you engage the autopilot. Finally, switch on the autopilot in course mode. It takes a few seconds for the gyroscopic system to stabilize, but it does fly level after that and you can also command it to make small turns and corrections by changing your desired heading in the gyro-compass.


I've been attempting to do this with the HE-111, but the wobbling back and forth in course mode goes on infinitely for me

I align the gyro compass with mag compass, then align the desired course with the gyro, engage course mode, and the plane banks left, turns 5 or 10 degrees, then turns back towards the desired course, passes it, goes 5 or 10 degrees beyond the desired course, the turns back to the left again, over and over, and never settles - constantly passing the desired course by 5-10 degrees....

I even tried turning up the the time compression and watching it for what was probably the equivalent of 5 minutes and it never settled on a course.

Any thoughts?

Blackdog_kt
05-15-2011, 11:56 PM
This is because it's somewhat off as described above. Compounded with the 111's slower control response it might end up over-shooting the heading it tries to achieve, which initiates another turn that overshoots again and so on.

It could also be a case of the gyroscopes needing some time to align.

However, it works fine in the 110 even if the desired heading is still a bit off. I've found out that i can set it reasonably well and have it stay level upon engaging the autopilot, because i got used to the amount of offset as it's displayed on the instrument (i let it settle a few times on different headings as a test and i found out it's always off by approximately the same amount of degrees).

Since the desired heading compass card is off, you will need to input a "wrong" desired heading, altered by the same amount of degrees that the system is inaccurate, to compensate for the error and keep the plane from drifting. As an example, let's say you are flying due north and you want to engage the autopilot, it should look something like this:

---330---N---30--- (actual heading)
-----330---N---30--- (desired heading with corrective offset incorporated)

It's about 5-7 degrees offset, but if you set it like this it's almost dead on and takes no time to stabilize (in the 110 at least). From that point on, you ignore the read-out of the desired heading compass card and fly by the actual heading, commanding turns by altering desired heading by the amount of degrees you want to turn (it's like steering the plane with a console/joypad controller from that point on). The read-outs might be different but the differences between headings are the same, so if i want to turn 10 degrees left based on the directional gyro/actual heading, i can simply reduce the desired heading by 10 degrees and it will correctly turn to where i want it.


Hope it helps.

PissyChrissy
05-16-2011, 01:18 AM
the infinite wobble being attributed to slow control response in the HE-111 may be a good guess. I haven't tried it in the 110 yet.

I'm going to try aligning my gyro to my mag compass while on the ground, leave it for a few minutes before taking off, then see what happens..... just in case it's an alignment/calibration issue caused by the plane being in motion (to date I've only tried using this system in missions that begin in the air).

Redroach
05-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Since the desired heading compass card is off, you will need to input a "wrong" desired heading, altered by the same amount of degrees that the system is inaccurate, to compensate for the error and keep the plane from drifting. As an example, let's say you are flying due north and you want to engage the autopilot, it should look something like this:

---330---N---30--- (actual heading)
-----330---N---30--- (desired heading with corrective offset incorporated)


isn't it something like ~10deg x cos(alpha), with alpha being the angular offset from an east-west orientation (for example west being 0 and east being pi, have I got it the right way?)(*). The "about 10deg" are taken from a post by luthier, regarding compass offset.

Just playing around with my very shaky rememberances on considerations regarding the magnetic poles from school...

(*) alternatively, probably better/more intuitive: 10deg x sin(beta), beta being angular offset from a north-south orientation...

Fusek
05-16-2011, 02:20 PM
i think it would benice to have a 'level stabilisor' command when you are in the bombadiers position.More like the bombadier asking the pilot to keep the plane in this alt and heading.

Redroach
05-16-2011, 03:17 PM
that's what blackdog is trying to tell you...

But what I ask myself, because my wisdom in WWII bomber systems is limited, is, whether the "level stabilizer" or that limited autopilot is the one which is more historically accurate. If it's the latter, maybe the level stabilizer is missing for a good reason, isn't it?

JG53Frankyboy
05-16-2011, 03:38 PM
yep, but this is STILL a PC simulation/game.

In Mulitplayer it might work when you have two humans players in one bomber. But will you have this always ??

Saintblu
05-16-2011, 06:29 PM
If you can select infinite ammo surely we can have the horizontal stabilizor back eh? It needs to be back in the game especially on multi player. If we impliment the current procedure it will just be ruined from flak or heavy cannon shot.

Blackdog_kt
05-16-2011, 06:52 PM
If you can select infinite ammo surely we can have the horizontal stabilizor back eh? It needs to be back in the game especially on multi player. If we impliment the current procedure it will just be ruined from flak or heavy cannon shot.

Which is exactly what happened in reality many times. I doubt any full switch servers would use it if it meant the bombers fly like it's on rails and disregard the effects of flak, turbulence and so on.

However, that still leaves us with the problem of how to fly an aircraft with multiple crew positions on our own.
Well, I've had an idea for some time now that could work well for almost everyone but it's a bit complicated to explain, so bear with me.

First of all, let's make a distinction to keep things clear. Whenever i say "autopilot" i mean the simulated system that copies the real-life equivalent in the aircraft that had one, NOT having the AI fly the plane for you. For the AI flying the plane, i refer to it as passing the controls to a virtual crew member.

This is just to avoid confusion further on.


With that out of the way, the level stabilizer is a gaming gimmick that had to be used in the old engine because there wasn't anything better available, it's not really realistic.

That being said, we do need an alternative because not all bombers have an autopilot and automatic bombsights. Also, even in aircraft with automatic bombsights it's sometimes useful to execute manual bomb drops.

So, we would need to have something to replace the old level stab and is both playable and realistic at the same time.

I'm thinking along the lines of a script or AI routine that lets us guide the pilot through the bomb run like a real bombardier would do.

For example, say you press the "level stabilizer" key but it doesn't work like the old one. Instead, it gives control of the aircraft to the AI and it starts flying straight and level. Up to this point it's very similar to the old level stab in IL2:1946. However, to make turns and corrections during the bomb run in the older series you had to mess with rudder trim.

In reality, a bombardier would give specific instructions to the pilot for course corrections and the pilot would make normal banking turns (just not steep banks). So, imagine that instead of having level stab and rudder trim, what we get when engaging this function is the AI flying the bomber in level flight but we also have the ability to command turns.

It could use its own specifically mapped keys, or it could use already existing commands (just like in IL2:1946, where the bombsight controls also direct the guided missiles and change settings for the P-51's gyroscopic gunsight).

Let's say it uses existing commands, probably the ones for the course setter or those that change the desired heading in the luftwaffe autopilots, so that it's intuitive and easy to remember: "in any sort of assisted flight (autopilot or AI controlled), these buttons make the aircraft turn". I have mapped my controls for the luftwaffe course selector to < for a left turn and > for a right turn, so let's use these as an example.

So, each keypress of < or > would tell the AI pilot in control of the aircraft to turn one degree left or right, but only when the "new" level stab function is engaged. If the level stab was disengaged, then it would affect the course selector instrument like it currently does.

Then you would just go to bombsight view, engage the new and improved level stab, look at the target and tell the pilot how much to turn left/right without having to mess up your rudder trim: it's not only more realistic, it's also easier to handle.

This would adequately simulate how a real bombardier guides his pilot through a bomb run while still maintaining complete playability for those who don't want to use the actual autopilot (or those flying Blehnheims and Br.20s which have no autopilot at all).

We can already pass the aircraft controls over to the AI in aircraft with more than one pilot (Tiger Moth and Br.20), so i guess it won't be a huge amount of work to have such a function. Furthermore, it's a solution that would please everyone since it's simulating a real tactic while still being perfectly playable and easier to control than what we had in IL2:1946.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions/improvements? I wish i knew how to code in C#, i would actually try and make some AI-assisted scripts to simulate how a real crew cooperates during a mission: a navigator script, a script for AI crewmen to call out contacts, etc.

PissyChrissy
05-16-2011, 08:37 PM
.....well, tried aligning gyros on the ground, leaving it for 5 minutes to calibrate before moving the plane, tried engaging the course allowing for the 5-7 degree offset, and still, wobbles infinitely. Looks like no level bombing for me until some sort of patch solves this.

Riksen
05-17-2011, 05:51 PM
Well i agree with FrankyBoy in the regard that this still a simulation game, and as any other kind of simulation, no matter how close to the real thing it might get, it still has its limitations, which, in my opnion, should be compensated somehow. In this case, by re-introducing the "old" level stabilizer as we saw in il-2 1946. However, Blackdog has a good point, which might please everyone, as he said above. So in order to "fix/ improve" this system, it would be nice if some dev, like luthier himself, could take a couple of minutes to read this topic and post at least an explanation of the current system and take in to consideration a way to improve it, but we all know this will never happen so im done level bombing for now.

Once again, thxs for the tutorial Blackdog

JG53Frankyboy
05-17-2011, 06:18 PM
and not to forgett, it would be nice if one would be able to release bombs with a shortcut from the bombardier position....

Blackdog_kt
05-17-2011, 07:20 PM
Yes, i've made a bug report of this in the relevant thread, compiled in a list along with every other bomber-related bug i've managed to find or bugs that other people have observed independently that i could replicate (stuck directional gyro in the Ju88, top turret controls in the Br.20 are reversed, He-111 loses a bomb when opening bomb bays if you change settings in the bomb distributor).

PissyChrissy
05-19-2011, 02:02 AM
Looks like the issues with the HE-111'a autopilot wasn't addressed in this patch. Hopefully next time.

JG53Frankyboy
05-19-2011, 02:06 AM
no issue about the bombers was fixed. Nothing was mentioned in the readme, so, no surprise....

Redroach
05-19-2011, 12:08 PM
@Blackdoc_kt, regarding the long-ish post on this page:
Yeah, that's what I wanted to know. So that new course-holding autopilot is more like the real WWII thing than the old level stabilizer, right? So, this one time, Lstab could be left out on purpose and just be there for legacy reasons or for future use.

samich
05-19-2011, 03:43 PM
its in no way realistic the way it works now. The bombadier would never have to setup and fly the plane with trims or solely rely on an autopilot to keep his plane level and its absolutely impossible to do when there flak flying around because the slightest knock means you're back to square one.

I highly doubt they intended to not include alevel stabaliser.

JG53Frankyboy
05-19-2011, 03:48 PM
sure, in real there were two persons, the bombardier and the pilot.....
Except for Multiplay (and there most propably not often), you are alone in your Multicrew bomber.

There for there have to be limitations in "beeing real" IMHO

We will see what future will bring for CoD Bomber"Pilots" :D

Riksen
05-19-2011, 04:00 PM
Yeah Franky... hopefully a good one. By the way things are going we still have a long road before fixing bombers becomes a priority. So, as i said earlier, no CoD for me at least for now. :(

Redroach
05-19-2011, 04:19 PM
its in no way realistic the way it works now. The bombadier would never have to setup and fly the plane with trims or solely rely on an autopilot to keep his plane level and its absolutely impossible to do when there flak flying around because the slightest knock means you're back to square one.

I highly doubt they intended to not include alevel stabaliser.

A quick look on wikipedia would have yielded this for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_%28air_force%29

And what are bombers supposed to do, according to you, when encountering flak? Flying slalom around them? Or having the waist gunner equipped with a frying pan, in order to knock the shells back to sender?

samich
05-19-2011, 04:58 PM
all that link says is that in some planes using particularly bombsights, such as the nordon sight the bomber would take control of the plane and use the bombsight to control the autopilot. We dont have a nordon bombsight in cod and no pilots in any of the german planes or the current british planes were using a system even remotely like that..

also, i didn't say there was a problem with flak knocking a plane around but in real life that can be corrected for by a pilot while the bombadier does his job, he doesn't have to re trim the entire plane and re center it while trying to use the bombsight as well because that is an impossible task.

its almost like you were trying to sound like an idiot in that post

Redroach
05-19-2011, 05:23 PM
I had to adjust my brain to be able to follow the logic of a 7-years-old, you know?

PissyChrissy
05-19-2011, 09:47 PM
oh, here we go.

How does a simple conversation about the bomber functions in a flight simulator turn into this?

Blackdog_kt
05-20-2011, 02:53 AM
all that link says is that in some planes using particularly bombsights, such as the nordon sight the bomber would take control of the plane and use the bombsight to control the autopilot. We dont have a nordon bombsight in cod and no pilots in any of the german planes or the current british planes were using a system even remotely like that..

also, i didn't say there was a problem with flak knocking a plane around but in real life that can be corrected for by a pilot while the bombadier does his job, he doesn't have to re trim the entire plane and re center it while trying to use the bombsight as well because that is an impossible task.

its almost like you were trying to sound like an idiot in that post

Actually the German bombers behaved almost identical to the US ones and even their bombsights were functioning on a similar principle (gyrostabilization).

I know it might be hard to break old habbits but yes, in the Luftwaffe and USAAF the bombardier was flying the plane through the bomb run via an autopilot.

Implementing a "level AI switch" (because that's what level stab actually is) is a step back. Just give us an improved level stab where you guide the AI pilot through key commands and the aircraft still shakes from flak and the pilot makes errors of 1-2 degrees, etc, to make it work like it actually did for the bombers that didn't have autopilots or automatic sights.

Up until late in the war, the RAF bomber command was sending thousands of crews against targets at night and the most precise method of control was the bombardier talking to the pilot on the intercom "left, left, steady, to the right a bit, steady,steady.....bombs away". And that's why until electronic systems and pathfinders were implemented, they were missing entire cities by as much as 10-20 miles.

In a similar fashion, until the US 8th AF got to grips with the real issues facing a daylight bomber raid, organized tactics and learned how to work with the advanced systems they had, they initially didn't score greatly.


Bombers in WWII used to miss and miss a lot and often. If people want a relaxed difficulty option with the old level-stab i'm fine with it, more options is always better for everyone. As long as it remains an option that full switch servers can turn off.

By the way, has anyone tried turning off realistic bombing in the difficulty settings and trying the level stab? Maybe they have already implemented it this way.

PissyChrissy
05-20-2011, 05:53 PM
By the way, has anyone tried turning off realistic bombing in the difficulty settings and trying the level stab? Maybe they have already implemented it this way.

Interesting. I gave that a try (turnging off realistic bombing), and it seemed to solve the problem i was having with the infinte wobbling when engaging course mode in the HE-111. I'm able to get the plane to settle on a straight course (still with the 5°-7° offest), and then make course adjustments with the course autopilot preset under the directional gyro.

I tried a level bombing run at 3000m, 250km/h, and was able to hit pretty close to what i was aiming for (still need practice). The only other thing that stood out was that now, with realistic bombing turned off, the bombsight seemed to be going off of IAS, not TAS - which is to say that with bombsight altitude set @ 3000m, the crosshair stayed locked onto the ground (with no vertical slip) with the bombsight velocity set at 250km/h, rather than 290. I'll do some more testing to confirm, but it looks like turning off realistic bombing lets you input the IAS rather than figuring out the TAS.

PissyChrissy
05-20-2011, 06:23 PM
Yeah, i just went through another bombing run, and it all worked as outlined above. Seems we have a functional HE-111 with realistic bombing disabled, and the only cost to realism seems to be that you're inputting IAS into the bombsight rather than having to convert to TAS.

Now, if only i could get the rest of my flight to drop when i drop :confused:

Blackdog_kt
05-20-2011, 07:20 PM
Cheers, thanks for testing this out. So it is in fact tied to a realism switch and the wobbling is intentional behavior, probably simulating the limitations of the gyro-stabilization system. Interesting.

With realistic bombing turned off maybe level stab works too, at least in the bombers that lack a course autopilot (BR.20 and Blenheim).

Another thing about the course autopilot, you can actually fly the aircraft at the same time that the autopilot is engaged. Maybe that is the trick to getting rid of the the 5-7 degree offset.

I've read the manual for A2A's add-on B-17 for FSX (i think it's freely available on their website, i got a peek on a friend's PC who's an avid FSX flyer) where they modeled the wartime autopilot and it's not a trivial thing to set up, requiring trimming for level flight before it's engaged and then some further fine-tuning to ensure it's accurate.

Maybe something similar is needed for the Luftwaffe course autopilot and we're meant to correct the offset by manual control inputs.

I would test this myself but it's Friday night and i'll probably end up going out for some drinks :-P

SG1_Lud
05-20-2011, 08:01 PM
When I made my tests, I found that if I took the time to trim the plane and fly her correctly, setting myself a steady course, and after that engaging the autopilot to the desired course (with the famous offset 5-6 degrees) the wobbling takes 2-3 cycles and its amplitude seems realistic to me.

But if you engage off trim, then you have a lot o wobbling.

Before I came to that conclussion, in my tests I tried too to "help" the auto course with my inputs, but that was not a solution.

Oh, and BTW, when I said trim, I am including the engine, so is important first to know howto fly the plane by hand in its correct settings; the more important ones:


Best cruise: ATA 1.2 RPM 2200 -> IAS = 285 km/h
Economical cruise: ATA 1.2 RPM 2100
Optimal bombing: ATA 1.0 RPM 2200, alt=3000m, compressor stage II -> IAS =250 km/h

This is for He-111 H with Jumo engines, as per the manual and I found correctly modelled.

So first put in parameters your engine, then you trim her, let the plane settle at level flight, and once you have it steady, set that course (with the offset), engage the auto and watch her.

So appart of the commented features needed for the bombardier, I am happy with the way the modelled it. of course not agaisnt having an option for those who want the things easier.

Hope it helps.

PissyChrissy
05-21-2011, 05:57 PM
It's quickly becoming obvious why they would send large formations of bombers in the hopes if hitting a single target....

So does anybody know how to get the other planes in your formation to drop their bombs at the same time you do? Or does the broken comms system prevent us from doing this?

Iku_es
05-23-2011, 11:08 AM
+1
I would like to see implemented the "AI Pilot" function when you are at the bombardier station, simulating the interaction between Bombardier and the Pilot. It would be more realistic than trying to fly the bomber looking throught de bombsight using the stick and rudder.

I dont rember if it was possible (in the original IL2) to make the rest of the bombers drop bombs on your command. Would be another nice feature (provided your aim is better than mine lol).

JG53Frankyboy
05-23-2011, 11:28 AM
the command is there, in difference to IL2'46 !
But i guess it is not working in the moment..

JG53Frankyboy
05-24-2011, 12:18 AM
i faced the following proplem:
flying bombers in multiplayer, when i am switching from pilotseat to any other position the engines loose power. The Blenheim's engines even are stopping ?!?!?!?

Is it only me or have other players this proplem too ?

SG1_Lud
05-24-2011, 01:13 AM
i faced the following proplem:
flying bombers in multiplayer, when i am switching from pilotseat to any other position the engines loose power. The Blenheim's engines even are stopping ?!?!?!?

Is it only me or have other players this proplem too ?

My bet would be:

You are controlling your aircraft throttle and/or prop pitch with the keyboard.

But you still have mapped the throttle and/or prop pitch to analogue axis of the hotas

Right?


This issue is caused because the game has the nasty habit of re-reading the position of that analogue axis every time you switch positions; I you want to control the aircraft with the keyboard, you'd better make a profile called "bombardier" where you have disabled that/those analogue axis.

PissyChrissy
05-24-2011, 02:25 AM
I'm actually using a Saitek X52 pro stick and throttle, and i encounter the same problem when i switch stations.

JG53Frankyboy
05-24-2011, 10:54 AM
also X52PRo.
My only throttle control is the axis of the X52, no other buttons mapped.
For pitch i have two versions on my X52 throttle : the forefinger hatswitch to fly the 109/110 and the thumbwheel to fly all other aircraft.

when i change positions in german aircraft, the engine are loosing power for a short moment (one can describe it as a 'hiccup' ;) ), but the Blenheim engines dont "survuve" this, they quit. The german ones keep running.

and to repeat, i have this proplem only in Multiplayer, in Singleplayer not