Please keep the realism!

[JG52Uther]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Definately agree.

[MadTommy]

it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

+1

[[URU]AkeR]

Agree PLease dont dumb it down

[Flanker35M]

S!

+1. Realism above all.

[6S.Manu]

+1

[ATAG_Bliss]

As a realism squad - most definitely +1!

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

I think the same!!!

[Retaliator]

+1 No compromise !

[41Sqn_Banks]

+1

at least make it an option like "realistic instruments" for real compass and gauge behaviour.

[Redroach]

seconding that as well.

Except, as always (ceterum censero... :rolleyes: ) some heading indicator for those without 6DOF, as they have no well-working way to find out the heading ^_^

[FlyingShark]

I fully agree, realism all the way, we are simmers not just gamers.

~S~

[Zorin]

Agreed. This simulator wants to exceed IL-2 1946 and therefor should not compromise on these vital matters.

[ECV56_LeChuck]

I agree. The user always are afraid of changes, but that's what keep us moving.

[FG28_Kodiak]

+10

[Russkly]

+1

This is not a console game...

[Scarecrow]

+1. CloD is greater realism; keep it real Devs!

[blampars]

+1 here. I don't want to see anything dumbed down by default. Lets keep it as accurate as possible!

Maybe a realism option similiar to engine management? Real instruments vs simple.

[Helrza]

+1

keep the realism!

I loved my bouncy gauges and want them back! :D

[GOZR]

+1

[mugen]

+1 for realism

[Babi]

Agree.
no need to change something because some players "feel" it's not right.
This is a SIMULATION, the only way something should be changed is if there is reliable data on the subject. If you have data that shows the merlin cuts with 0.5 G, then keep it that way unless more reliable/detailed data is found or provided by someone.

[SG1_Lud]

+1 for realism

[Triggaaar]

+1 if that's the way it was, let's have it like that (although I wouldn't mind if it was toned down a little, purely because real dials are easier to read than the small versions we see on our monitor) - if some need the option not to have it, let it be a realism setting.

[Letum]

yup

[Heinz Laube]

+1 for realism

[csThor]

+1

[meplay]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

+1

[t4trouble]

+1

[kendo65]

+1 I agree.

...but, think about this - Luthier has maybe played a nice move here - the beta patch will be in effect for all of 3 days, then will be superseded. He has made some changes that can easily be undone very quickly while at the same time letting some of the people who were unhappy see the downside of going for changes they were asking for. :)

[Nepe_EAF51]

+1

[smink1701]

Keep it real...that's the point.

[Dano]

Keep it real, or preferably make it a difficulty option.

[David198502]

+1000
realism is a must have for this game....sorry is supposed to be a sim isnt it?

[tillobert]

+1
thought the same when I read the patchnotes:(

[RedToo]

Please, please, please:

Keep it as close to 1940 as possible!

RedToo.

[Art-J]

Well, the tacho movement was overdone (It's not a pressure-dependant instrument after all), so I guess this one should be reworked. The other instruments? Maybe, I'm not qualified enough to say, however...

Giving the choice is usually the best solution. Make shaky instruments one of difficulty options and all users are happy to choose what's comfortable for them.

[*Buzzsaw*]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

This has been discussed on the FM forum in quite a bit of detail and it was clear the engines on the British aircraft were cutting out for long periods, which is inaccurate. By all the reports of actual pilots and the facts re. carburetor float bowl characteristics, the cutout would not come nearly as quickly in real life as the game had originally portrayed, nor would it persist as long.

Quote from an actual pilot:

"I have the privilege of flying and displaying Hurricane Mk1, [serial deleted]. It will not surprise you to know that in deference to it's age and historical importance we do not fly the aircraft as aggressively as it would have been flown during combat. Particularly, we avoid negative g so I am not well placed to answer your question specifically. However, I can give you some clues.

First, I can tell you that it does not require negative g to make the engine suffer from a shortage of fuel supply; a significant reduction of g down to, say, 0.3g can be enough to make the engine misfire. This can be experienced towards the top of a wing-over but I would estimate that the reduction in g needs to be maintained for 2 seconds or more before there are any effects. Undoubtedly, if the reduction in g was greater (to less than zero g) and particularly if the bunt was abrupt then the effect could be instantaneous. I have never, though, experienced any misfiring in turbulence; albeit, were the turbulence severe enough to produce g spikes to less than zero g, I would not rule out the possibility of the odd cough from the engine. Of interest to you I am sure is that on recovery from an episode of fuel starvation the engine recovers through a short period of over-richness shown by, I would estimate, up to a second of black, sooty exhaust before normal combustion is resumed.

Good luck with your simulation."


This is a change will provide a more accurate reflection of the real aircraft.

[MaxVelo]

Giving the choice is usually the best solution. Make shaky instruments one of difficulty options and all users are happy to choose what's comfortable for them.

+1

[huckster]

+1 was a little suprised when i read the patch notes, W.O.P is that way ->

[SaOk]

+1

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Keep-It-Real--ali-g-565475_355_475.jpg

KEEP IT REAL :):)

[PhilHL]

+1
no compromise, we want realism!

At least make a option for the changes u made!!
Thank you for the great sim!

[Strike]

+1 for this petition!

Signed by Me ;)

[Buchon]

+1

I'm the only one that was having fun with the carburetors planes behavior ? I was very happy with this new step in realism.

I was having really fun flying the Spitfire and the Hurricane, learning to keep my G on the engine on loops and turns.

This just kill my fun right now.

This change should be optional in the Disable Realism Options, not forced to all.

Please keep the carburetors engines behavior available to those who want a full simulation.

[effte]

Dumbed down - no way! This happened to Il-2 and I do hope that CloD will not go down that route.

Corrected - absolutely.

The positive G cutout (which should have been a -ve G cutout) was IMO, with a bit of knowledge about engines and after reading the lengthy discussions, overdone.

Making an RPM gauge which did not bounce around was not above the capabilities of 1930s technology.

Definitely in the realm of corrections, still.

[JG52Krupi]

with news in the beta patch thread that the spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move i think going down this road would be a mistake.
Cod is shaping up to be the best ww2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

+1,000,000,000.

[seiseki]

Yes, please don't listen to players if you are certain it's historically correct.
And if it's absolutely necessary add it as a realism option..

This makes me question the other parts of the game, have there been other compromises on historical accuracy to make some things more comfortable to certain players?

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

+1

at least make it an option like "realistic instruments" for real compass and gauge behaviour.

I completely agree.

Also for those who don't like cut outs: use the "No Complex Engine Management" if you don't like it (and I am a Spit flyer)

Anyhow I think the problem with the cut out are not the values that are fine but probably there was expected to be a more inert behaviour from 1g to 0.25g than right now. That is what probably caused some trouble

or
perhaps and more likely it was only because the feedback coming from the game (sound, smoke) was too strong so it felt as if the cut out was overmodelled (I highly believe that it was just a too strong audio and video feedback than really a problem of FM).

[Therion_Prime]

+1

[GunnyMac]

1+ Keep it real as it gets

[Intz]

+1 Please keep game as real as possible)

[Wolf_Rider]

If how the gauges and cut-outs were as presented originally is how they were in real life... please put them back, or at least have the an option in the Realism section

[skouras]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

i'm with you mate:-P

[doghous3]

Can't say I've ever flown a plane, let alone a Spitfire. But I have to agree with people here. The neg G thing has been tweaked too far.

Like anything, practice and you'll improve. Seem's to be no choke point now and just cut-out. Doesn't feel the same, and the Spit has lost character for me.

Not too fussed about how needles move on dials, as long as they are generally giving a correct reading.

But, change the characteristics of the Spit back!

[Viper2000]

I'm quite sure that we'll end up with a realistic sim because that's what the majority of the vocal section of the community wants (obviously there are probably quite a lot of people who have bought the sim but don't post and so nobody really knows what they want...).

Provided that people keep posting data, which they will, the chances are that things will progressively get fixed over time.

OTOH, I suspect that quite a lot of what's going on at the moment is about quick, pragmatic fixes rather than for example trying to get the perfect tachometer in one go.

I would imagine that switching the tacho type to electric is just a quicker way of reducing bounce than rewriting the mechanical tacho code.

I would also point out that stuff like instrument behaviour is very technical and quite specific. AFAIK some of the compass parameters we have are currently taken from Russian compasses of the period, presumably because it's easier to get a WWII Russian compass in Russia than to get a WWII British or German compass.

It's therefore quite possible that the mechanical tacho model might be based on Russian instruments of the period rather than British ones, resulting in different behaviour despite the fact that the mode of operation is nominally the same. So we might get more realistic instrument behaviour post-patch, even if the drive mechanism is wrong (which I suppose might impact the DM).

As for the carburettor stuff, it's complicated, as the 10 page thread on the subject attests. I suspect that again, the behaviour mentioned in the beta patch readme is a pragmatic quick fix rather than the last word on the subject.

So at this point I'm probably more relaxed than the average person here; I'm in this for the long haul, and view the next few months as more of a large scale public beta than anything else. We'll get there in the end. :)

[bongodriver]

+1 .........carefull what you wish for in the future eh.

[bw_wolverine]

+1 for Realism.

Reading the patch notes I was happy to see improvements in the performance of the game, but sad to see adjustments to realism because some people 'don't like how it looks'.

If a Spitfire cuts out at .25G in real life, then it should cut out at .25G in this sim.

End of.

[ubermachtig]

+1

Please don't lower the realism in game, at the very least make it switchable in case it really has to be added for those who are "confused"

[Siegfried]

Real is better!!!

[334th_Gazoo]

I want to fly antiques, NOT Jet planes.

[nakedsquirrel]

* Replaced every tachometer in every British and Italian plane with an electrical type, since some people find needle movement on the mechanical type not what they expected.

* Completely removed overload assessment from carburetters. Rolls-Royce engines will now cut if overload is negative, and will not cut if it is positive.

Can we have these back please! Who cares what people "expect" this is a sim! Expect realism!

Especially the carburetter option. There's a nice little vid on this thread that shows just how touchy the Rolls Royce engine is.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=20462

[JG4_Helofly]

If it's already going toward less realism because some people can't handle the game, then what will it be when people feel that they can't kill enough tiger tanks with the .50 cal...?

+1 for realism because it's not MS combat flight simulator!

[KDN]

+1

[Fliegenpilz]

+1

I too vote for keeping realism! :grin:

...as real as it has been back then ;)

[T}{OR]

Another vote for realism. Make it optional, but keep the real thing in the game.

[Robotic Pope]

Well, the tacho movement was overdone (It's not a pressure-dependant instrument after all), so I guess this one should be reworked. The other instruments? Maybe, I'm not qualified enough to say, however...

Giving the choice is usually the best solution. Make shaky instruments one of difficulty options and all users are happy to choose what's comfortable for them.

+1

From reading posts from expierenced RL pilots I get the impresion that the bouncing instruments were not realistic and were overdone like you say. So maybe you are gaining realism not losing it this way. I expect the devs will work on the mechanical instuments to make them more realistic and then reinstate them in a later patch.

[Targ]

Way to over react Luthier, LOL.

At worst the Hurri may have needed some fine tweaking but in no way did it deserve to be neutered the way you and your team chopped it up.

Shame on you.

[JG53Frankyboy]

Do you guys also flying thebombers?
Without level stabalizer and a german course automatik that needs not seldom too long to stabilize and you fly over the target without the Lotfe showed its sight?
just beeing curious......

[blitze]

No - I wanna my Spit to have multile MFD's with IR, Radar, Night Vision and big IFF labels on my goggles. So I can clearly tell who my allies are and bomb them. ;)

Keeping it real.

[LukeFF]

+1

at least make it an option like "realistic instruments" for real compass and gauge behaviour.

+1 absolutely

[jg27_mc]

Although I still don't own the game (without gaming rig at the moment due to a faulty ATI HD 5870) I completely agree.

Keep It Real Please !!!

Cheers,
MC

[Heliocon]

+1

[Mango]

+1
Full-switch all the way!!

[Sturm_Williger]

Another one in the "Keep it real" camp.

Re. intruments, I understand if this is a quick fix and more realistic "instrument bounce" will be added later, but preferably add this fix to the lower-realism option please.
Re. Engine cutout, if you coded accurate Merlin cutout, please keep it so.

[maclean525]

Close to American release this is probably a smart move from the developers. Of course this needs to be made optional in the GUI or at least in an ini file. "Full Real" should be exactly that.

[Bewolf]

If Maddox Games got their reputation for one thing, then it was the unwillingness to compromise on realism just because the community demands it. If ample proof is sent to improve on details, cool, but to change stuff, just because ppl "feel bad" is a sure way to go down into Sim oblivion.

[335th_GRSwaty]

+1

[robtek]

As Real As Possible!

And as the patch is out, can we start to discuss FM now?????
I'd like to have the planes their real weight and being able to reach the service ceiling.

[Koala63]

+1 again. Don't dumb it down please.

[Flashman]

I'd like to add my name to the list of those who wish the realism settings to remain.

By all means have a simple or real instrument setting to help out the novice pilots (and perhaps a corresponding server value) but please don't dumb down the settings to the lowest level.

Please don't turn this simulator into an arcade game.

[FliegerAas]

another vote for realism. Make it optional, but keep the real thing in the game.

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

[adonys]

I agree

[angrueo]

+1
We definitely need realistic gauges and engine cut out.
Please, do yourselves a favor and aim at the right public, not casual gamers. We have had enough of casual titles lately....

[Devastat]

+1

[SEE]

+1 for the Merlin

+0.5 for the analogue guages (they needed a bit of 'damping' for less deviation under normal flight) 'over damped' now!

[Sauf]

+1, as accurate as you can get it thx

ps, will the 109 weights be fixed in mondays patch?

[meplay]

+1, as accurate as you can get it thx

ps, will the 109 weights be fixed in mondays patch?

When bombs are loaded?

[335th_GRAthos]

...shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game



Eheeem.... sorry guys if I jump in but, who said that the way the mechanical dials have been jumping was indeed "realistic"?



~S~

PS. I can see some guys loading the flame-throwers.... :-D

[SturmKreator]

+1, dont do the same like the old il2

[SYN_Per]

As a realism squad - most definitely +1!

Yepp!

[Ataros]

+

[Sauf]

When bombs are loaded?

without bombs 109 shows as being over takeoff weight. E3 is the same.

[zoopyzook]

+ 1 million

This is the first real sim i've owned since ms flight sim 1998 and i'm loving it!

Spitfires and realism is what it is all about!

[Rote Dreizehn]

+1

full realism is a must in COD

[ElAurens]

Mechanical cable driven tachometers do not have 1000 rpm swings in their readings unless the drive cable is severely frayed, kinked, or otherwise totally worn out. What we have now is totally wrong.

Also the problem with Neg G cut out was happening in level flight with properly trimmed aircraft. It's not about push overs, which indeed should cause engine cut out.

Please don't make this a Red vs. Blue issue trying to compensate for the perceived over modeling of the Spitfire in IL2.

[kammo]

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss View Post
As a realism squad - most definitely +1!

Yepp!

+1

And make it optional please

[meplay]

without bombs 109 shows as being over takeoff weight. E3 is the same.

Ah rgrt, yeah ive not looked since the new patch, but on the last 1, the 109 with 4xSC50's was overweight even when i had the slider for the fuel on at 0% :-P

S!

[BRIGGBOY]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

+1

[JG5_emil]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.


Signed!

[vincent_dimicco]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

yes please realism above all

[BlackbusheFlyer]

Signed also. The tach was fine.

[jibo]

realistic instruments check box needed

[Mabroc]

Agree with the realism stuff. Add a "Historical Crappy instruments" or "Super duper perfect all weather instruments" in the realism settings for the needles jumping and compass manual adjustment. We can discuss later how much the needle should jump and if is not better having the compass on the ground on the correct position (lets say adjusted by your ground crew) with manual adjustment later when flying as needed.

About the Negative cutout, get more real data and feedback from the players, it seems even when flying perfectly level there where issues, maybe some CEM bug.

Waiting for my STEAM copy on the USA release date (same for SouthAmerica)

[SEE]

Mechanical cable driven tachometers do not have 1000 rpm swings in their readings unless the drive cable is severely frayed, kinked, or otherwise totally worn out. What we have now is totally wrong..

Absoloutely agree! The 'oscillation' and deviation was too exaggerated but could be part of damage/fault modelling.

[Redroach]

Mechanical cable driven tachometers do not have 1000 rpm swings in their readings unless the drive cable is severely frayed, kinked, or otherwise totally worn out. What we have now is totally wrong.

Also the problem with Neg G cut out was happening in level flight with properly trimmed aircraft. It's not about push overs, which indeed should cause engine cut out.

Please don't make this a Red vs. Blue issue trying to compensate for the perceived over modeling of the Spitfire in IL2.

See, that's what's really starting to P+++ ME OFF!. Could you please upload a youtube file of you, in person, flying a RL spitfire or hurricane. Please hold up a sign that reads: "[Your nick] greets the banana forum". Then focus the cam on the rpm indicator. Thank you.

In any other event, I tend to believe the developers because they FKIN INTRODUCED IT in the first place! I'm pretty damn sure that they didn't just think: "Oh well, let's just add some random dial movement, but only on the rpm gauge. This will be awsum fun guyz". Right?

In any way, I hope this will be reverted and we'll get back the proper stuff. I mean, the 2s bomb arming delay was also a great improvement towards realism in Il2-1946 (though it threw certain people's mad skip bombing skillz off, despite others adapting in less than 15 min.) and we should continue to stay on this track, amirite?

Also, lol @ the guy on page 4 or 5 who doesn't really understand what his "hurricane pilot" writes.

[scissorss]

I agree, keep it as real as possible please. All the others can go play BoP if this sim is too confusing. :)

[SG1_Lud]

realistic instruments check box needed

+1

[Rince]

100% for realism!!!!

[Codex]

+1

[SEE]

See, that's what's really starting to P+++ ME OFF!. Could you please upload a youtube file of you, in person, flying a RL spitfire or hurricane. Please hold up a sign that reads: "[Your nick] greets the banana forum". Then focus the cam on the rpm indicator. Thank you.

In any other event, I tend to believe the developers because they FKIN INTRODUCED IT in the first place! I'm pretty damn sure that they didn't just think: "Oh well, let's just add some random dial movement, but only on the rpm gauge. This will be awsum fun guyz". Right?



Maybe this will pee you off too......quoted from TD member in the latest patch thread....take it up with him and maybe.....the pilots?



To those stating things like bring back the bouncing tacho needles etc because they were more realistic etc sorry but that is BS.

Real pilots are providing input. in this case the input comes from a current Spitfire MKVII and MKXVI pilot.

The alteration of the G cut out comes from multiple pilots, a Merlin and DB601/605 engine restorer, a current Hurricane II, Spitfire II pilot and a Hurricane I pilot. So before you start making sweeping statements like the devs are responding to 'the few' whinners then check your facts.

The devs have direct access to a number of current warbird pilots. One for instance is current on the following types:

Winjeel,Wirraway,Spitfire MKVII and MKXVI, P51D,P40E,P40F,Hudson,Harvard, and Vampire.

[Redroach]

ehmm... is this blue text some poor hoax attempt? It's BS but the same post lists the pilots the devs (WHO FKIN INTRODUCED THE BOUNCING NEEDLES FFS!) have access to?

anyways, video plx or it didn't happen and the devs win.

maybe I should just go to bed and hope not too much more will be broken by the "like-it-easy"s come monday.

[Robotic Pope]

ehmm... is this blue text some poor hoax attempt? It's BS but the same post lists the pilots the devs (WHO FKIN INTRODUCED THE BOUNCING NEEDLES FFS!) have access to?

anyways, video plx or it didn't happen and the devs win.

maybe I should just go to bed and hope not too much more will be broken by the "like-it-easy"s come monday.

And when you wake up, try not to get out the wrong side of the bed again.

[Redroach]

And when you wake up, try not to get out the wrong side of the bed again.

Yeah, I'll try to.

[Codex]

There is one thing that I never see mentioned in these discussions and that is the fact that while the Devs are using input from pilots currently flying these restored aircraft, do the restored aircraft use original cockpit instruments?

While I don't doubt for one minute the input they are providing the Dev is correct, I would like to hear whether or not the aircraft they are flying have the ORIGINAL dials linked to ORIGINAL sensors, or are they using current day technology to meet the flying regulations of which ever country the RESTORED aircraft are registered in?

[SEE]

The 'bouncy needle' as you describe it is just eye candy. It didn't affect me one iota. Geoffrey Wellum adjusted his PP for RPM at 2650 before combat and left it at that untill combat was done and dusted, I don't recall him talking about RPM other than in terms of preparation. (How he managed to set the 50 with a neeedle bouncing all over the place could be questionable though....:grin:)

As for the neg G, I find it far easier to manage in CoD than the Early Spit mod packs for IL1946 which are more sensitive. The needle isn't a big issue and not worth arguing over.

[Wolf_Rider]

There is one thing that I never see mentioned in these discussions and that is the fact that while the Devs are using input from pilots currently flying these restored aircraft, do the restored aircraft use original cockpit instruments?

While I don't doubt for one minute the input they are providing the Dev is correct, I would like to hear whether or not the aircraft they are flying have the ORIGINAL dials linked to ORIGINAL sensors, or are they using current day technology to meet the flying regulations of which ever country the RESTORED aircraft are registered in?



excellent point

[ChosenOne]

+1 for realism :grin:

[Skoshi Tiger]

+1 for realism!

More traing for young players to understand whats happening.

[Les]

I have no idea whether the dials and cut-out were more realistic before, but I know they seem more lifeless and uninteresting to me now after the latest patch.

If it were me I would have toned down the needles a bit, but just because I found it a little annoying the way they constantly flickered like that. But I would have left the engine cut-out like it was, if only because I found it a nice change from the old series and it made me fly more carefully.

I'm hoping that, as others have suggested, it was just a quick fix, and at some point the harder job of just toning down the effects a little will be done.

If that's the case, I'd rather the devs didn't take that more reactionary approach to changing things, and that they decide not to do that with other issues in the future. I want them to leave things how they think they should be, until conclusive proof is provided that it should realistically be some other way.

And when something is endlessly debateable, despite all the differing 'proofs', I want the devs to make the decision how it stands, not the community. I want the sim to be made according to the developers own vision, not mob rule.

That's the real issue for me.

I think the community should have as much input as possible, but at some point the developers have to also say, if it has to be done one way or another and it can't be made optional, and we just have to toss a coin to decide which way, we're not going to toss a coin, we're going to do it the way we think it should be done.

I'm trying to remember some examples from the old series where I thought the developers compromised on that too much, but I can't remember what they were. It has happenened before I'm sure, but not often. And it's not a road I'd like to see them go down more so now.

I personally do appreciate the expert input from the community, but I don't want them to run the show in terms of what's 'real' and what isn't. None of it's real at the end of the day, it's a simulation, of things that are often just too variable and inconsistent to be able to make definitive statements on.

I'm not saying the developers are infallible and that they can't make mistakes. But if and when they do, that's when the community can provide irrefutable proof to correct them, as has been done.

But, again, and finally, when there's no conclusive proof on some infinitely arguable aspect of this sim (and I'm not even saying that was the case in this instance, I'm talking more generally), I'd rather see the developers version of how they think things should be, not the version according to what some vocal element of the community wants or thinks is right.

[jibo]

the flying ones don't have original sensors for safety reasons, old instruments belong to the museums i suppose

[fireship4]

I agree that realism should be the watchword - this is not an argument for or against what has been changed, as I don't know the facts of how they performed at the time. But if we do have solid information on something being a certain way (including discussion in this forum) then that should be what goes into the game.

[Blackdog_kt]

There is one thing that I never see mentioned in these discussions and that is the fact that while the Devs are using input from pilots currently flying these restored aircraft, do the restored aircraft use original cockpit instruments?

While I don't doubt for one minute the input they are providing the Dev is correct, I would like to hear whether or not the aircraft they are flying have the ORIGINAL dials linked to ORIGINAL sensors, or are they using current day technology to meet the flying regulations of which ever country the RESTORED aircraft are registered in?

That's a good question actually.

Overall, i'm all for realism to the extent of masochist frustration :-P

Just provide a suitable option to turn such things on/off for when we want to have a relaxed sortie and for people who like flying in a more casual manner and everything is perfect.

This issue is not a red vs blue issue. I've been a 190 driver all my life in Il2 but i find myself flying mostly Hurricanes in CoD.

This is also not a vendetta between the full-switch and the relaxed difficulty simmers. Everyone should be able to enjoy the sim/game the way they prefer, without forcing their preferences down each other's throats.

The real issue is this: let's make this as realistic as possible, while providing enough options to turn off the difficult stuff in order to appeal to the more casual gamer or the newcomers to the hobby, so that we satisfy our hardcore customer base and also secure new sales from "non-veterans" at the same time.

I like flying full switch, it doesn't make me better it's just my gameplay style. Other people like flying with reduced settings, it doesn't make them inferior. In order for the sim to thrive, everyone should be able to do either of the above.

Long story short, i agree with the poster who said that this is probably a stop-gap fix while the dev team is dealing with more pressing issues. Rome was not built in one day and IL2 didn't get released in the state that IL2:1946 is currently at. The important things is to keep tweaking and improving CoD as we go and the frequency of patches is a very encouraging sign.

[Feathered_IV]

+1 for realism

I was really enjoying watching the dancing revs.

[RAF74_Winger]

This is also not a vendetta between the full-switch and the relaxed difficulty simmers. Everyone should be able to enjoy the sim/game the way they prefer, without forcing their preferences down each other's throats.

The real issue is this: let's make this as realistic as possible, while providing enough options to turn off the difficult stuff in order to appeal to the more casual gamer or the newcomers to the hobby, so that we satisfy our hardcore customer base and also secure new sales from "non-veterans" at the same time.

This is what gets me a little bit, all the people here who have time to be adamant that the real gauges would bounce around like they did in this sim before the patch would be too busy working on their landing technique if the dynamics were modelled fully.

Consider this also: The VSI doesn't exhibit the same behaviour as the altimeter and ASI - how the hell could that happen?

-1e9 for lack of realism.

W.

[Targ]

Mechanical cable driven tachometers do not have 1000 rpm swings in their readings unless the drive cable is severely frayed, kinked, or otherwise totally worn out. What we have now is totally wrong.

Also the problem with Neg G cut out was happening in level flight with properly trimmed aircraft. It's not about push overs, which indeed should cause engine cut out.

Please don't make this a Red vs. Blue issue trying to compensate for the perceived over modeling of the Spitfire in IL2.

So you are happy with the way the Hurri and spit neg G handles now in the beta patch?

[Flying_Nutcase]

Yes, please keep the realism - at least as an option!!

[White Owl]

I don't own the game yet because my computer broke and I'm waiting on parts, so just looking at Youtube videos for now. :(

I posted earlier that I've seen a whole lot of real-life aircraft tachometers in operation, since I fixed airplanes professionally for years. Most of those tachs were mechanical, not electric. I have never seen a tachometer needle bounce around like I'm seeing in the videos, not under any circumstance. However... I'm willing to accept the possibility that British and Italian tachometers of the era could have differed from anything else I've ever seen. It's also very likely that any currently airworthy warbirds will have modern instruments, so we can't divine the truth of the matter by looking at in-cockpit recordings now.

Ok. If the devs have evidence that tach needles of the day oscillated that badly, then let's keep it that way in the game.

But I can't help thinking it's very strange that in all the books I've read about WWII aviation - with so many reports from combat pilots comparing their aircraft to more modern planes - not once have I come across a phrase anything like "Of course, back then our engine instruments were so inaccurate you couldn't tell exactly what RPM it was turning, so we just set the throttle and prop controls to 'close enough' and got on with it."

[Skiiwa]

+1 for keeping it real!

[Roger Wilco]

+1 keep the realism yes.

[patrat1]

+1 for REALISM.

[Raggz]

+1

People should learn instead of whine!

[BP_Tailspin]

See, that's what's really starting to P+++ ME OFF!. Could you please upload a youtube file of you, in person, flying a RL spitfire or hurricane. Please hold up a sign that reads: "[Your nick] greets the banana forum". Then focus the cam on the rpm indicator. Thank you.
LOL … Dood you need to watch that blood pressure.
In any other event, I tend to believe the developers because they FKIN INTRODUCED IT in the first place! I'm pretty damn sure that they didn't just think: "Oh well, let's just add some random dial movement, but only on the rpm gauge. This will be awsum fun guyz". Right?
and
“Oh well, let's just add some random dial movement”
LOL … you’re going to pop a vein.

That’s exactly what they do, they try new stuff that’s challenging and fun. Remember the Airacobra in IL2, I love the Airacobra but it spun like a top if you stalled it, LOL but they fixed it. The P51’s engine quits if a bullet gets near it, yet the same engine in other planes handle damage differently, oh will. The programmers read lots of books to research WW2 aircraft performance data; I hope you didn’t think all the programmers were WW2 pilots and mechanics; they do lots of mathematical calculations to determine the flight and damage models. But in the end they take an educated guess which is just fine, it’s the only choose they have. Have some faith in Oleg and his team; if they screw something up they’ll get it figured out and fix it.

Here’s some information about the tachometer in the Spitfire and Hurricane. The Rolls-Royce Merlin used an electric tachometer not a mechanical tachometer. When the needle sways back and forth it is normally a sign that the generator that powers it is going bad or the receiving unite in the tachometer is out of calibration. All the pilots would do is average the reading, no need to panic. The odds of this happening are rare at best, that’s not to say it can’t happen. In the 32 years that I have been flying vintage aircraft I’ve only had one electric tachometer fail, but it was 60 years old, I guess it was overdue for a failure.

I’ll buy COD after the beta testing is completed this summer. I’m looking forward to this game, I remember the good times and good people I met playing IL2. I think I’ll reinstall it on my new computer, only this time I can max everything out.

[ElAurens]

See, that's what's really starting to P+++ ME OFF!. Could you please upload a youtube file of you, in person, flying a RL spitfire or hurricane. Please hold up a sign that reads: "[Your nick] greets the banana forum". Then focus the cam on the rpm indicator. Thank you.

In any other event, I tend to believe the developers because they FKIN INTRODUCED IT in the first place! I'm pretty damn sure that they didn't just think: "Oh well, let's just add some random dial movement, but only on the rpm gauge. This will be awsum fun guyz". Right?

In any way, I hope this will be reverted and we'll get back the proper stuff. I mean, the 2s bomb arming delay was also a great improvement towards realism in Il2-1946 (though it threw certain people's mad skip bombing skillz off, despite others adapting in less than 15 min.) and we should continue to stay on this track, amirite?

Also, lol @ the guy on page 4 or 5 who doesn't really understand what his "hurricane pilot" writes.


Have you even seen a cable driven tacho on any vehicle of any kind?

I highly doubt it.

I have.

Just another manifestation of the twisted mantra chanted by guys hiding in their cellar playing video games... to wit... "Harder must be more real".

[justme262]

+1 Keep it real.

With a switch for people who aren't man enough to handle it.

Maybe give your sources for the points in question.

[JG301_HaJa]

+1 on this.

[Wolf_Rider]

Have you even seen a cable driven tacho on any vehicle of any kind?

I highly doubt it.

I have.

Just another manifestation of the twisted mantra chanted by guys hiding in their cellar playing video games... to wit... "Harder must be more real".


the "Frogeye"

http://www.british-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/rev-limiter-201002222158239966.htm

and




"Crankshaft: Clockwise rotation viewed from the rear (supercharger end). One piece balanced, six-throw machined forging of nitrogen-hardened chrome-molybdenum steel. Crankpins and journals are bored and fitted with oil retaining caps and the webs are drilled to allow oil to be fed axially from each end of the crank to to the main journal and connecting-rod bearings. Drive to the reduction gear pinion is from a serrated flange bolted to the front end of the crankshaft. The rear end of the crankshaft is connected by a flexible torsion shaft (spring drive) to the supercharger driving gear and also provides drives to the auxiliary gearbox, oil pumps, coolant pumps, fuel pump, tachometer and propeller constant-speed unit. Angular movement of this spring shaft is limited by stops attached to the crankshaft."

http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0325.html (Griffon)

[jimbop]

+1 for realism, make the simpler version an option

[Widow17]

Yeah, realism rocks :)

[reflected]

I don't know guys, but the merlins cutting out in level flight because of turbulence sure wasn't right....

[41Sqn_Banks]

I don't know guys, but the merlins cutting out in level flight because of turbulence sure wasn't right....

From the quote of the infamours Hurricane I pilot:
I have never, though, experienced any misfiring in turbulence; albeit, were the turbulence severe enough to produce g spikes to less than zero g, I would not rule out the possibility of the odd cough from the engine.

[reflected]

From the quote of the infamours Hurricane I pilot:

So it's right as it is now it seems...

[Extreme_One]

+1

There are switches to allow people to fly with aids etc. please don't enforce the dumbing down for those that choose to fly full real.

[Ikarus]

I fully agree, realism all the way, we are simmers not just gamers.

~S~

+1

[NaBkin]

+1 i want realism!

[jdbecks]

I think before any changes are made to the realisim of the sim..it should only be backed by techical evidence, not what players feel is right. If they tone down any of the game settings then this should be a clickable option. Pilot notes are not accurate as they can vary from person to person and are open to misinturpuration, and someone trying to remember what described what it was like 40/50 years ago is not accurate neither. Aces High 2 is very good at this, and will make changes to the FM when someone provides hard evidence.

I have never come accross this about the gauges, and would be intersted to read some information on it. I have driven a 432 and scimitar tank and from what I remember the gauges did not bounce around and they were mechanical gauges for the RPM.

[tranquillity]

well, we must keep in our mind , that the devs might have received new information and thus changed the behaviour(->in order to have it closer to reality) with the neg g cutouts.
If that is the case, we shall accept it, even if it makes it easier..if its more realistic and easier that is fine i guess?
well I hope devs will always keep realism as their priority.
(same as with mechanical tachometer, I hope they improve the mechanical tachometer code to exchange the electrical ones later.)
Always stay open minded, don't insist on the old system if it was less realistic:)

[Triggaaar]

Always stay open minded, don't insist on the old system if it was less realistic:)Of all the hundreds of threads I've read on this forum, this one is unique in how everyone has agreed with each other. Look at the thread title, and the countless posts that say we all want realism (where it's sensible to have it).

Regarding the needles, surely they wouldn't have gone to all the effort of making them bounce if they didn't do that in real life, so I would be surprised if it's realistic to suddenly remove the bouncing effect. Although if they bounced a lot in real life, I think it's good idea to reduce the effect a little because it's much harder to read the dials on a small PC screen that it would have been in real life.

[Buzpilot]

+10
If it's not broken, don't fix it :evil:

[fantated]

+1

Agree 100% with OP.

Cheers

/Ted

PS

I waited over a year to post on something really worthwhile and important.
I´ve always had faith in the developers to make this sim shine, so taking something away is a bit, well, sad really.

Anyway, keep up the good job.

[HamishUK]

I am kind of getting fed up with this. We go from one extreme to another in these patches. A few people moan about something and suddenly it is changed...not just a small amount but drastically.

The whole negative G cutout was not an issue per sa more of a very slight tweak so it wasn't on such a hairline when flying straight and level in a well trimmed aircraft. What we have now is a Spitfire that can match the 109 in a dive.

The bouncy instruments is probably a compromise. No one can validate whether the needles bounced as much as they do in the game so rather than drastically get rid of the bounce completely just reduce the amount of bounce slightly.

It's a game of compromise not one of extremes. I want realism but at the same time not one of us can validate the exact details of a Spit Mk1.

So Luthier get a grip and rather than go from one extreme to another just tweak slightly for the greater good!

[SV_MadisonV44]

+1 for sure

If people asked for digital display in cockpit would you do so ?
please keep on track ...;-)

[Jotaele]

+1
Im with HamishUK, If peoples complain about mechanical instruments do not means that we want electrical one, this is the oposite extreme. Mechanical intrument aould have been programed much better, and do not vibrate for all the event in the game in same intensity, wind guts, engine failures etc...

[engarde]

With news in the beta patch thread that the Spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move I think going down this road would be a mistake.
CoD is shaping up to be the best WW2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

Thank GOD for you and this post.

And im not religious.

Please dont let this become the sim that becomes known for the accuracy of its ignorance to historical values, purely from console types whining about nonsense.

Please, dont end up with the lunatics running the asylum.

[utu]

Yes, keep the realism, the cut out was not a problem here. But I'm wondering why the Spit and the other planes are shaking the epileptic dance above 10.000ft. Since the last patch the shaking is slightly improved, I think it is caused by the carburetor, but how to avoid the shaking? I don't think that the real pilots were sitting on epileptic machines... :(
Also the instruments shaking is useful, in the real erly Spit, if the rpm needle shakes -100/+100 rpm it means there is a problem with one of the magnetos.

ps
the shaking problem is at full CEM. When you set the full automatic pilot, the shaking disappears, as well the cut out. Maybe the Ai is flying without full CEM?

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

+1

Please keep the realism,it's what brings the sim to life,do away with it and it becomes just a game not a sim.

Everyone can fly in a game,but to fly a sim is far more challenging,and personally it's why I purchased the COD.

I hope your reading all of these threads Luthier you're customers are politely telling you something that is dear to their hearts.;)

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Quote: Originally Posted by reflected
I don't know guys, but the merlins cutting out in level flight because of turbulence sure wasn't right....

From the quote of the infamours Hurricane I pilot:
Quote: I have never, though, experienced any misfiring in turbulence; albeit, were the turbulence severe enough to produce g spikes to less than zero g, I would not rule out the possibility of the odd cough from the engine.

I agree to this (and not only because he's the Old Man) that perhaps the cut out modelling left out inertial behaviour. Ingame it had formerly cut out instantly when the correspondig g was achieved while according to my understanding of the Hurri pilot's quote it was more inert and took some time to take effect.

So if I were dev I would have tried the following:
keep the historic g values for the different modes of cut outs. Apply the corresponding effect in full extent (100%) on engine performance with a time delay of 2secs as described in another thread to be the experienced delay in RL. Apply a smooth transition of mixture leaning between the moment of appearing g level and the full effect of mixture ratio. But this smooth transition should be not linear but rather parabolic or exponential with time. For simplicity one could approach this non linear behaviour by segmenting the transition curve let's say into three of four segments and inbetween the segments it is linear. This allows small gradients in the initial stage and steep gradients when approaching 100% effect of the corresponding cut out level. Then test if it is still sensitive to turbulences and small trim tab movements.

[F19_Deathlok]

+1 Agree!

1. Realism should always be first priority. Each step away from realism should be an option where we can choose whether or not we want it in game.

War was NOT fair, choose other means than dumbing down realism in case of gameplay balance.

[IvanK]

"What we have now is a Spitfire that can match the 109 in a dive."

BS.... go on line and prove it. See if you can hold the same distance from a 109 with both of you performing the same manoeuvre. You have the 109 Maintaining its ATA and RPM with the Hurris and Spitfire both having RPM rapidly drop to <1600RPM and Boost dropping to zero. The 109 pulling combat power and the Hurri and spit pulling stuff all !

If you don't want to go On line then replicate the manoeuvre individually as best as you can starting from the same IAS hold the push for say 15 seconds and then note the IAS ... both the same ?

In the brief tests I have done here are the results. Using the Quick Flight Over Dover as the start point.

BF109E3 Wait for prop pitch to get to the 12 O,Clock setting.
Start from 200Kmh select Max Max ATA
At 300KMH Push progressively forward until 90 degree nose down is achieved over a period of 8 secs
Increase in IAS achieved 100KMH
Av acceleration 12.5KMH per second

Spitfire IIA Prop Full Increase
Start from 100MPH
Select Max Boost
at 140MPH Push progressively forward until 90 degree nose down over a period of 8 secs
Increase in IAS 20MPH
Av acceleration 2.5MPH per Sec

So the Spit gets around 2.5MPH per second and the 109 around 15.5MPH per sec.
Or the BF109 gets a round a 50MPH gain over the Spit in the manoeuver ... hardly "staying with the 109"

[LcSummers]

Yes agree, realism must be saved.

If its hard work onit:::;)

[flyingblind]

If this thread wasn't here I would have started it myself. Please, please keep as realistic as possible. I was sad when I read the dancing instrument needles were being removed. I was truly gobsmacked when they first appeared in the video clip released some months ago. Battle of Britain planes that didn't have electronic tachometers shouldn't have them in game purely because of a few peoples dislikes. I do not have any problems reading instruments in CoD and my eyesight is far from brilliant.
The same goes for Spitfire engines under negative G. If they cut out in real life they should do so in game. It is well documented that 109s were generally better aircraft than Spitfires. They were faster, dived better and had cannons and twice the amount of ammunition. It was superior tactics, radar and logistics used by the allies and crass blunders by Goering that won the battle not that Spitfires performed as well or better that 109s. I love flying the Spitfire and to have it as something it wasn't just spoils it.

[robtek]

"What we have now is a Spitfire that can match the 109 in a dive."

BS.... go on line and prove it. See if you can hold the same distance from a 109 with both of you performing the same manoeuvre. You have the 109 Maintaining its ATA and RPM with the Hurris and Spitfire both having RPM rapidly drop to <1600RPM and Boost dropping to zero. The 109 pulling combat power and the Hurri and spit pulling stuff all !

If you don't want to go On line then replicate the manoeuvre individually as best as you can starting from the same IAS hold the push for say 15 seconds and then note the IAS ... both the same ?

In the brief tests I have done here are the results. Using the Quick Flight Over Dover as the start point.

BF109E3 Wait for prop pitch to get to the 12 O,Clock setting.
Start from 200Kmh select Max Max ATA
At 300KMH Push progressively forward until 90 degree nose down is achieved over a period of 8 secs
Increase in IAS achieved 100KMH
Av acceleration 12.5KMH per second

Spitfire IIA Prop Full Increase
Start from 100MPH
Select Max Boost
at 140MPH Push progressively forward until 90 degree nose down over a period of 8 secs
Increase in IAS 20MPH
Av acceleration 2.5MPH per Sec

So the Spit gets around 2.5MPH per second and the 109 around 15.5MPH per sec.
Or the BF109 gets a round a 50MPH gain over the Spit in the manoeuver ... hardly "staying with the 109"

You should have used 124 mph for start and initiated the dive at 186 mph with the spit to compare.
Would this give the same result???
Also i believe the prop-pitch of the 109 would never be in the 12:0clock position when diving, overspeed comes much too fast.
Further a 45° to 60° dive would be much more realistic, tough not so easy to compare.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I think to compare cut out by diving behind a 109 is not a good base for comparison as both types will have different dive behaviour, cut out or not.

I think: The g values used for cut out evaluation before patch are correct (all historic scources agree on this). They should be kept

I think the behaviour just needed a bit thweaking - the build-up of the effect should by SLIGHTLY made more inert. A small delay between time of g-factor for cut out and the realisation of cut out and a smooth transition between 0% cut out to Cough condition and between cough condition to 100% cut out would have done the trick to have a good representation of push over cut outs while still being insensitive to turbulences.

[Aracno]

with news in the beta patch thread that the spitfire cut out has been changed from real values,and mechanical guages have been made electric because players don't like the way they move i think going down this road would be a mistake.
Cod is shaping up to be the best ww2 flight sim ever,and it would be a real shame to introduce unrealistic elements into the game just because some people are confused.

+100

[41Sqn_Banks]

So if I were dev I would have tried the following:
keep the historic g values for the different modes of cut outs. Apply the corresponding effect in full extent (100%) on engine performance with a time delay of 2secs as described in another thread to be the experienced delay in RL.

+1

This would eliminate the problem that some people have with turbolences and keep the realistic limits for cut-out and misfire.

Btw some posters say that the dev may have received new information and that is the reason they changed it ... I doubt that. The release notes clearly state that they felt it was right but they changed it because some confused people felt it was not right.

Same goes for the compass (which was changed it the previous patch).

Make complex instruments optional and bring back the cut-out limit.

[Deadstick]

+1 on keeping FULL realism.

Remember the mission statement from the developers about wanting to try and create the most realistic flight sim ever?

Go back on that, and you have lost already.

Those that can't handle realistic G cut outs or jumpy cockpit instruments, or anything else in this game because of the "Why can't I get 50 kills in a sortie" (Boofuckinghoo)syndrome, should stick to arcade mode.

Or better yet, bugger off and play Birds Of Prey on their XBox 360s.:-P

[flyingblind]

There seems to be a view from some that the swinging tacho needle pre patch may be unrealistic. I have driven quite a few cars from the 50s and 60s with mechanical rev counters. Simply reving the engine produces a smooth sweep of the needle. The internal workings however have more mass than electronic counters. When being driven the road bumps and engine vibration impart forces on this mass creating extraneous movement in the needle. I have never been in a Spitfire with mechanical guages but from my experience with cars I would think the wild swings seen pre patch are more likely in a plane experiencing the enormous stresses and strains in a combat situation than the smooth pedestrian offerings we have now. And being completely subjective - I love them.

[DarthElvis]

Prove the jumpy needles are realistic. Don't forget the graphs and pie charts. Harder does not always = realism.

[ICDP]

The jumpy needles pre patch were excessive, they did need toned down a lot. Having said that jumping needles is accurate in mechanical instruments.

Have a look at the MP guage at 5:45 in this Mustang video, it is jumping around quite a bit. Other instruments are steady but MP is jumping, so some needle shake is accurate. It needed toned donw, not eliminated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ8VhayEk7s&feature=channel

[utu]

the needles jump in turbulence, misfiring and other accidents. In my opinion the misfiring is a problem (but I don't know the cause).

[flyingblind]

There is probably only one way to resolve differences regarding such minutia of realism is to try and find some of the last remaining pilots who actually flew the planes. Sit them down and show them both versions and ask them which one in thier recollection seems more accurate. Any one have a suitable grandad or great grandad?
No, I can't prove the jumping needles are accurate any more than anyone can prove they aren't. From my experience of mechanical speedometers and rev counters there is more likely to be erratic movement than none at all. Certainly such movement would be the result of external forces on the instrument rather than inaccuracies within it so movement would vary accordingly. How much is down to the developers.

[meplay]

The jumpy needles pre patch were excessive, they did need toned down a lot. Having said that jumping needles is accurate in mechanical instruments.

Have a look at the MP guage at 5:45 in this Mustang video, it is jumping around quite a bit. Other instruments are steady but MP is jumping, so some needle shake is accurate. It needed toned donw, not eliminated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ8VhayEk7s&feature=channel

They will be getting the sounds right then :P

[billeinstein]

I think every gauge has different delay or reaction time when the parameters is changing. Some gauges like engine RPM are easier to jump, but others are not, such as IAS and VVI gauges, i guess.

[GOA_Potenz]

Change whatever you want, but always pointing into more realism, not following the whinning of someones that want to get what they see in movies.

[fruitbat]

18 pages whining about needles and a slight change in neg g, yet no one gives a crap that you can't get any of the planes anywhere near there service ceilings and indeed even to the operational heights that the battle was fought at, due to a fundamental bug, go figure.

yeah realism for teh win.

[bongodriver]

I wouldn't mind betting that if the engine spluttering thing gets fixed the bouncy needles will be magically fixed too....

[41Sqn_Banks]

18 pages whining about needles and a slight change in neg g, yet no one gives a crap that you can't get any of the planes anywhere near there service ceilings and indeed even to the operational heights that the battle was fought at, due to a fundamental bug, go figure.

yeah realism for teh win.

There is no misfire, no black smoke and no delay until full power is restored anymore. I wouldn't call this "slight".

Of course you are right about the high altitude issue, but it is pretty sure that this will be fixed sooner or later. IMHO there is no need to worry about it.

[paxalgra]

Agreed with topic starter.

[Tymi]

There is no misfire, no black smoke and no delay until full power is restored anymore. I wouldn't call this "slight".

Of course you are right about the high altitude issue, but it is pretty sure that this will be fixed sooner or later. IMHO there is no need to worry about it.

I think the altitude issue should be pretty much at the top of the "to be fixed" list..

[fruitbat]

I think the altitude issue should be pretty much at the top of the "to be fixed" list..

+1

its a much much bigger bug IMHO....

[Reider]

+1

at least make it an option like "realistic instruments" for real compass and gauge behaviour.


Agree

And we need geforce damage for the Planes not just Blackout. Atleast an option to switch.

Somthing like: Gforce : none / Normal / realism

[RocketDog]

18 pages whining about needles and a slight change in neg g, yet no one gives a crap that you can't get any of the planes anywhere near there service ceilings and indeed even to the operational heights that the battle was fought at, due to a fundamental bug, go figure.

yeah realism for teh win.

Agreed 100%.

[ATAG_Dutch]

18 pages whining about needles and a slight change in neg g, yet no one gives a crap that you can't get any of the planes anywhere near there service ceilings and indeed even to the operational heights that the battle was fought at, due to a fundamental bug, go figure.

yeah realism for teh win.

I think the altitude issue should be pretty much at the top of the "to be fixed" list..

+1

its a much much bigger bug IMHO....

After 4 hours of not believing this, and struggling to get the Spit to climb above 20000, I totally agree.
I blamed myself for being crap at CEM, but it appears not.
Sorry chaps, you were right!:)

[squidgyb]

Agreed that all realism issues need to be looked at.

Just because there are 18 pages of people posting "+1"s for this particular bug doesn't mean that they "[don't give] a crap" about other issues.

[flyingblind]

Oh my god, am I getting an erratic needle fixation? How sad is that. I quite agree with you Fruitbat 100% - reaching the correct operational heights is important and should be addressed. But that is something that will be corrected as it is historically verifiable - there is no argument.
This post was specifically about the fact that the erratic instrument needles were removed because some people simply did not like them whether they were an accurate depiction or not. This is quite an interesting discussion rather than whining as sadly there does not seem to be any cockpit film or any concrete accounts by contempory pilots that can shed light on which is more correct. Also, as has been said, planes from that era still flying probably have later, more accurate instruments to meet current regulations.
Unless such things can be switched in the game to suite personal taste then some people will always feel unhappy with the outcome.
I just happen to be in the 'keep the wobbly needles' camp because I think they look to be more realistic based on my experience of mechanical instruments.
But there is another reason to want them which was mentioned in another post and that is that they make the game come alive. They help to reinforce the impression that you are in a stressful combat situation in a high octane WWII fighter rather than a leisurely trip over the South Downs in a Cessna. Now I'll shut up and get on with my life and far more important things like getting shot down by you with the DDs. :D

[bongodriver]

as has been said, planes from that era still flying probably have later, more accurate instruments to meet current regulations.

There are no regulations on the instruments, here in the uk at least all warbirds are flying with authentic instrumentation, the americans often put modern stuff in their warbirds, the bouncy needles seem to be something that happens when the engine is coughing.....so fix the ceiling bug and I think the needles wil be fixed by default.

[SG1_Gunkan]

+1 Keep it real

[utu]

There are no regulations on the instruments, here in the uk at least all warbirds are flying with authentic instrumentation, the americans often put modern stuff in their warbirds, the bouncy needles seem to be something that happens when the engine is coughing.....so fix the ceiling bug and I think the needles wil be fixed by default.
+1

[kimosabi]

+ over 9000! Git mah dancin needles back pl0x!

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't own the game yet because my computer broke and I'm waiting on parts, so just looking at Youtube videos for now. :(

I posted earlier that I've seen a whole lot of real-life aircraft tachometers in operation, since I fixed airplanes professionally for years. Most of those tachs were mechanical, not electric. I have never seen a tachometer needle bounce around like I'm seeing in the videos, not under any circumstance. However... I'm willing to accept the possibility that British and Italian tachometers of the era could have differed from anything else I've ever seen. It's also very likely that any currently airworthy warbirds will have modern instruments, so we can't divine the truth of the matter by looking at in-cockpit recordings now.

Ok. If the devs have evidence that tach needles of the day oscillated that badly, then let's keep it that way in the game.

But I can't help thinking it's very strange that in all the books I've read about WWII aviation - with so many reports from combat pilots comparing their aircraft to more modern planes - not once have I come across a phrase anything like "Of course, back then our engine instruments were so inaccurate you couldn't tell exactly what RPM it was turning, so we just set the throttle and prop controls to 'close enough' and got on with it."

I have no first-hand experience but there's something else that makes me think that the old instruments were in fact a bit "funky". If you look at the way A2A simulations modeled it for their FSX add-on Spitfires, the RPM needle is also bouncing around the actual value quite a bit.

[JG52Uther]

I started the thread not just because of the needles and cut out,just a general concern about moving away from realism just because some people weren't happy with it,which is the impression I got from the beta post thread.
I agree there are many issues more important than bouncy needles,the incorrect low ceiling of the planes is a biggie,but thats not what the thread is about.

[Topo]

+1 Keep it real

[IvanK]

Service ceiling issues have been directly brought up with Devs as a HIGH priority element to address.

[dali]

eh, needles...there are other things which are unfortunately far from the "suspension of disbelief"...

[41Sqn_Banks]

Bump :)

[MikkOwl]

Dear Luthier and talented developers at Maddox Studios,

I bought your game. I think it is an unpolished huge diamond. Something very special. One reason is your incredible attention to detail in bringing these old machines to life again. I had misconceptions. Expectations that were wrong. Your simulator teaches me things I would never have learned from reading books or watching videos. It corrects my misconceptions. When I learn about these changes; actual efforts; to move away from that to meet some people's ignorant expectations, I become saddened and feel as if this precious simulator is being desecrated and corrupted.


As a paying customer I ask that you carefully consider the following request:
Revert these changes to what closest represents reality.
Adopt a policy of changing people's expectations through education. For example, a FAQ in the game's readme, and in forums. This takes less effort, development time and is simpler. The laser-tracer issue you defended and altered people's expectations, and we have our straight realistic tracers.
If there is a hardcore market requirement for dumbed down gauges and engine behavior, include it as option in the game settings. A unique option for gauges would be ideal. If pressed for time, it can also logically be part of 'complex engine management'.
Thank you for considering my request.

[addman]

+1

Bouncy needles, ridicoulus! There are still people having problems even running the game, focus on those issues instead, prioritize people, prioritize!

P.S Fix the god damned radio comms already.

[335th_GRAthos]

I started the thread not just because of the needles and cut out,just a general concern about moving away from realism just because some people weren't happy with it,which is the impression I got from the beta post thread.


+1 on this point Uther, it is very concerning that this thread turned into a "Gimme my realistic bouncing needles back" which is absolute and total nonsense because there is no historic evidence of "dancing needles", actually more of the opposite!


People are jumping on the bandwagon for the right war, but for the wrong fight!



PS. Thanks Blackdog_kt for posting it

~S~

[kimosabi]

It did NOT turn into a needles discussion. People that keep mentioning all the comments about the needles are making it a needles discussion. So please check your own wagon.

[Wolf_Rider]

a "Gimme my realistic bouncing needles back" which is absolute and total nonsense because there is no historic evidence of "dancing needles", actually more of the opposite!




perhaps you would share this "actually more of the opposite" information with us?

[41Sqn_Banks]

I wonder if the devs have seen this thread.

[skouras]

personally i want a smooth gameplay and a realism
if in true life the needles don't dance i have no problem with that:-)
but i want a sim as real as its get:grin:

[IvanK]

Have a look at this Glorious video Full screen 720HD.

About 2:20 in a cockpit shot of a Hudson ... all engine instruments rock steady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIK04PA0d9U

[SG1_Gunkan]

I love the video IvanK! thank you

[Oktoberfest]

Make a poll, guys !

[Wolf_Rider]

gee, look at the hues of the countryside...

have ya got a vid of the Hurricane which represented ingame of the same era?

[SNAFU]

Make a poll, guys !

:shock:

That`s exactly the point. ;) It should be displayed and implemented as close to the available data as possible. Do not let some players decide, so a poll is exactly what the developers should NOT do. It is not getting right, if it is repeated thousend times.


So please refrain from changes like this...
* Completely removed overload assessment from carburetters. Rolls-Royce engines will now cut if overload is negative, and will not cut if it is positive. (old values were sneezing at .5G, and cut-out at .25 which we felt were dead on, but this apparently confused most of the players)
... only because some players felt confused. Please stick to your data and sound engineering practise. :cool:

Greetings
SNAFU

[5-in-50]

Realism above all. Players should learn the how and why the 'real' aircraft behaved, not complain because it doesn't suit their abilities

[IvanK]

gee, look at the hues of the countryside...

have ya got a vid of the Hurricane which represented ingame of the same era?

LOL its Outback NSW in Australia ! dont think the hues here remotely resemble Europe :)

[Wolf_Rider]

yeah, well... they didn't call it New South Wales because it was similar to the Arizona desert, IvanK ;) outback or not :grin:


Orange, NSW

http://www.orange-nsw.com/files/AboutPics/LakeCanobA.jpg

[jimbop]

yeah, well... they didn't call it New South Wales because it was similar to the Arizona desert, IvanK ;) outback or not :grin:

Ha! Not much of it looks like South Wales to me, new or not! Although it has been pretty wet this last year...

[grunge]

+1! Realism is a must! Or make it optional at least for the causal players. :)

[602Sqn.McLean]

Keep it real for god's sake. Whilst waiting for the new patch it gave me time to train properly on engine start ups etc. After 10 years doing this I finally sat down and really took the time to read all the posts of those more dedicated folk. Now just waiting for the multiplayer to be fixed so I can put it all to the test.

[heloguy]

Consider this also: The VSI doesn't exhibit the same behaviour as the altimeter and ASI - how the hell could that happen?

-1e9 for lack of realism.

W.

This is probably because early VSIs were not instantaneous, and lagged a bit behind what the aircraft was actually doing. IVSIs, or Instant Vertical Speed Indicators are relatively newer than what these aircraft would have had.

[335th_GRAthos]

perhaps you would share this "actually more of the opposite" information with us?


It was on the PS. Previous page (page 20)

Originally Posted by White Owl
I don't own the game yet because my computer broke and I'm waiting on parts, so just looking at Youtube videos for now.

I posted earlier that I've seen a whole lot of real-life aircraft tachometers in operation, since I fixed airplanes professionally for years. Most of those tachs were mechanical, not electric. I have never seen a tachometer needle bounce around like I'm seeing in the videos, not under any circumstance. However... I'm willing to accept the possibility that British and Italian tachometers of the era could have differed from anything else I've ever seen. It's also very likely that any currently airworthy warbirds will have modern instruments, so we can't divine the truth of the matter by looking at in-cockpit recordings now.

Ok. If the devs have evidence that tach needles of the day oscillated that badly, then let's keep it that way in the game.

But I can't help thinking it's very strange that in all the books I've read about WWII aviation - with so many reports from combat pilots comparing their aircraft to more modern planes - not once have I come across a phrase anything like "Of course, back then our engine instruments were so inaccurate you couldn't tell exactly what RPM it was turning, so we just set the throttle and prop controls to 'close enough' and got on with it."



I am sorry I can not express an opinion since I have never seen a plane with mechanical instruments so I keep my mouth shut, unlike the dozens of "experts" here who decided to fly the banner of needles-realism high, without actually knowing what they are talking about!

Awesome group dynamics but, please gents, use your brains more and less your emotions!

REALISM IS GOOD I am 100% percent behind you guys! But as I said dozens of posts ago, who on earth said that mechanical needles jumped as much in reality???
The people who have seen mechanical instruments in their life said the opposite! (at least in the posts I read, if you have other, I am keen to read)

Uther said it clearly, this thread should stick to REALISM and not needless needles discussions!


Sorry for jumping hard but when I tried mildly nobody understood the message. Probably the lack of experience in "face-saving" excersises (the mechanical-electrical discussion) and the eagerness of people to fight for a good cause, makes everybody jumping around without looking at the underlying facts.



PS #1. Polls!? No polls! What kind of poll will this be? All the mechanical needles experts will decide on what is realistic for a 1939 aircraft instrument? Needless...


PS #2. If you want to make yourselves useful, check where the Revi gunsight (Bf109) points at (press Shift-F1 first!), with and without cockpit, and then tell me how realistic this is... (just to spare you the headache: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3271206/Head_position.html#Post3271206 )


Happy Flying!

~S~

[heloguy]

Have you even seen a cable driven tacho on any vehicle of any kind?

I highly doubt it.

I have.

Just another manifestation of the twisted mantra chanted by guys hiding in their cellar playing video games... to wit... "Harder must be more real".

I have as well. What vehicle are you talking about? I must admit, I haven't really flown the Spit in CoD, but if the bounce is between 100-150 RPMs, it can't be too far off. At least that's what the aircraft I used to run up used to have, and that's with electrical gauges mostly.

[Wolf_Rider]

It was on the PS. Previous page (page 20)








mmmm nuh, not what I could see... did miss something?

[41Sqn_Banks]

I can only speak for myself, but I think the majority of the "keep it real" crowd has the same opinion.
It's not about jumping needles, if mechanic instruments don't jump around, then keep them mechanic and remove/reduce the jumping.

It's about changes that are made based on feelings of people, not based on hard facts:

* Adjusted magnetic compass damping to match the characteristics of a Soviet A-4
compass, as many were unhappy with its present wobbling;

* Replaced every tachometer in every British and Italian plane with an electrical type, since some people find needle movement on the mechanical type not what they expected.

* Completely removed overload assessment from carburetters. Rolls-Royce engines will now cut if overload is negative, and will not cut if it is positive. (old values were sneezing at .5G, and cut-out at .25 which we felt were dead on, but this apparently confused most of the players)

[335th_GRAthos]

PS #1. Polls!? No polls! What kind of poll will this be? All the mechanical needles experts will decide on what is realistic for a 1939 aircraft instrument? Needless...

Damn! I was too late... ROFL

Spot on! Every single word proves the point!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=21667


I will enjoy this one, with lot's of humour :-)

Happy Flying guys ! Nice to have a simulation to talk about!

~S~

[sallee]

I thought the bouncy gauges one of the saving graces of the game on first release!

[monsterninja]

+1 if they cant use real, use HUD....

[b101uk]

Personally I believe there was some needle bounce on some instruments like the mechanical RPM counter, however in the game as it was it was a little to excessive and needed to be toned down but that said gauges that do bounce normally the true reading is in the centre of the maximum and minimum range of bounce which people who operate/drive machinery off-road or who have raced 4x4 or bikes etc off-road will be able to tell you that they all do even electric ones unless there a digital display.

Therefore if the virtual mechanical gauge has been replaced with a virtual electro mechanical one I would STILL expect some bounce at extremes of vibration or during fluctuating prop load like bobbing in and out of the wake turbulence/slipstream/prop wash wile chasing down an opponent when close behind them etc.

[dali]

again, you talk about needles, how about some aspects of flight model? rudders for instance?

[Tbag]

+1 for realism

[jcenzano]

+1

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

I can only speak for myself, but I think the majority of the "keep it real" crowd has the same opinion.
It's not about jumping needles, if mechanic instruments don't jump around, then keep them mechanic and remove/reduce the jumping.

It's about changes that are made based on feelings of people, not based on hard facts:

* Adjusted magnetic compass damping to match the characteristics of a Soviet A-4
compass, as many were unhappy with its present wobbling;

* Replaced every tachometer in every British and Italian plane with an electrical type, since some people find needle movement on the mechanical type not what they expected.

* Completely removed overload assessment from carburetters. Rolls-Royce engines will now cut if overload is negative, and will not cut if it is positive. (old values were sneezing at .5G, and cut-out at .25 which we felt were dead on, but this apparently confused most of the players)

+ 1 Trillion^Tetrillion

I now find it so much less immersive with this unsensitive merlin that doesn't shake at all and runs like a modern bmw car engine with active vibration damping devices. If ppl cannot handle realism they just need to switch realism options off. But leave realism for us real simmers.

[Silver_Dragon]

+1 to Realism, with the options for news for change in the settings :)

[IvanK]

For the pro Needle bouncers have a look at this track about 3:17 in .... no bounce just a tiny little bit of hunting after they reach 2050 RPM and thats pretty much what we have now in CLOD. So 2 videos so far validating the lack of needle bounce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3u5pqwNjGw&feature=related

So the realism with respect needle bounce (or lack thereof) has actually been improved !

[Wolf_Rider]

do you have one of the Hurricane (OEM equipment for the period ingame) though?

[IbanezLaney]

Just think about the old mechanical speedometers from back when cars were good.
This works the same way. The needle bounce seemed way over exaggerated.

A very slight wobble seems correct and only a large wobble would occur if the cable was incorrectly installed or damaged. The mechanical type would snap eventually if this was the case.

I don't know much about the gauges from back then but I would be surprised if they were not oil dampened to further reduce wobble.

[RAF74_Winger]

Not a hurricane, but reference the mad bouncing ASI and Altimeter - look over the pilot's shoulder here - a small wobble, but by no means the mad bouncing that we see in game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zfRl97XwktE#t=88s

W.

[IvanK]

Good video ... there the next thing to work on I guess ... but you know if they are changed there will be ASI/ALT needle bounce withdrawal hysteria :)

There is an exceptional commercial DVD off Hurricane R4118 I doing a display with split screen in the pit looking at the panel (not over the shoulder) and the outside world from the camera gun port in the starboard wing. It shows a similar thing. there is a little ASI wobble, next to no altimeter wobble and a good indication of AH precession as well, which implies that AH precession is a little overdone at the moment. Instrumentation is all original too boot.

http://www.itvv.com/product/R4118

The Devs are aware of this DVD.

[Ctrl E]

realisim please! that's why we buy the game.

i will not buy future installments if you do away with historical features simply because some don't "get" it.

[Untamo]

+1 for realism, for whatever it is (I am no expert on bouncy meters :D )

-Untamo

[macleod2024]

Clearly there is an argument over the bouncing needles. I would have thought that the sensible thing, which I think has been posted already, would be to give us the choice in the realism options.

Same goes for negative G issue on the Rolls Royce engine.

I appreciate that you have to keep the game accessible. However, there is no reason you cant please everyone.

You have to remember nearly everyone here bought this sim for the realism and authenticity we've come to expect. To mess with that seems silly.

I would just like to say thank you for the last patch. Apart from the radio issues, I can now play the game!

Keep up the good work!!

[TUCKIE_JG52]

For the pro Needle bouncers have a look at this track about 3:17 in .... no bounce just a tiny little bit of hunting after they reach 2050 RPM and thats pretty much what we have now in CLOD. So 2 videos so far validating the lack of needle bounce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3u5pqwNjGw&feature=related

So the realism with respect needle bounce (or lack thereof) has actually been improved !


Can you tell the exact model of the tachometer?

Here's another one, BUT comparing with a plane present in the simulator, the Tiger Moth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af29TuO5THQ

I don't know what you see here, I see a very imprecise, vibrating and bouncing needle...

[sallee]

I have to say I've flown in a Tiger Moth with even bouncier needles!

[bongodriver]

They shake a bit and hunt but the in game bouncing 'is' a little extreme, and they bounce the same way if the engine coughs or if you hit turbulence, I would only expect an instrument to bounce like that landing on a grass strip. etc......needs to be toned down IMO, that shouldn't mean taking away realism by making RPM electric......just fix the exessive bounce.

[SEE]

looking at the Tiger Moth Needle movement, it was previousley overmodelled - I cannnot see any problem if 'instrument flutter' were closer to the vid. I would hardly call it imprecise and in some brief shots pretty steady for an old bird. Good vid and puts this argument to bed

[Wolf_Rider]

the only argument retirer will be exactly what the tacho on the era plane/s was doing...

we've seen everything but

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

What I can see from the Moth vid and comparing to prepatch game is that the oscillation speeds were perhaps considerably overdone. The amplitude was perhaps not thaaaat bad. Just look at the rpm gauge where you can see the needle sway during inflight. The gauge can be seen a tiny bit on the left side and there's also the needle. I'd say the needle swayed gently with an amplitude of 2 subscale markings each way which corresponds to an amplitude of 1000 rpms. The frequency was perhaps 1.5 to 2 sec.

Another thing unfortunately going away from realism imho is that post patch there's no more pushing back into the seat under high positive g-loads. Yesterday I did some extensive trials with the spit and how strong I ever pulled on the stick at whatever speed the revi remained where it was. Only when pushing the revi moves in the horizontal axis but not at all when pulling. Ok, perhaps the pushing into the seat was overdone before but this should not result into completely removing it.

[Forgottenfighter]

+1 for realism.

I haven't tested the sim yet so I'm not even commenting on needles or negative G's. What I can say is that a historically accurate simulator must be as close to reality as is reasonably possible. We can't put GPS in the planes just because somebody who lacks the patience is unable to navigate for example.

Looks great from what i've seen though.

[mondo]

+1 Keep the realism.

[IvanK]

Great Video on the Tiger Moth. Some observations.

Tacho gyrations certainly are wild after start. With Flex/Direct drive tachos I would anticipate some fluctuations on start as the drive "takes up the slack" of going from 0 RPM to whatever the throttle position/ Idle would be. Same goes when rapidly selecting idle. These Tachos tend to exhibit more "bounce" at the lower RPM settings. If the drive cable is frayed and or damaged then fluctuations tend to be more evident. (Source Chief engineer of Flying museum in Aus).

Taxying again bounce is pretty wild in the vid.... no idea why unless terrain is affecting it ?

On Take off the tacho is pretty steady with variations of perhaps +- 50 thats all. these increase a little during acceleration as the RPM increase with increasing IAS, but again pretty small

In the cruise (3:56 in the vid) again very small bounces in the order of +- 50 RPM max.

On Final approach around 600RPM the bounce is again very small+-50 RPM.

So the vid shows wild gyrations on startup but at constant power settings and IAS pretty small variations.

Similar variation is seen in Blenheim MKIV tacho. At idle the tacho "bounce" is around +- 70 RPM but in flight including reasonable large speed excursions during a display RPM variations are only in the order of +-20 RPM. This with Pitch set to coarse. There is some great in cockpit Blenheim IV video in this DVD:

http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/DVD%20Store/DVDStore.html

With respect to Merlins (Source: Chief engineer Restoration/Flying museum in Aus). RR Merlins were all Mechanical Direct/Flex drive tachos. Packard Merlins were Electrical.
Again talking to current Spitfire pilot flying RR and Packard Merlins he couldnt see any difference Tacho wise just steady RPM with virtually no bounce.

[Wolf_Rider]

have a look at the Hurri tach needle in post latest Steam release patch

[Eldur]

+1000

[IvanK]

have a look at the Hurri tach needle in post latest Steam release patch


Yes what about it ? In both the CSU equipped Hurricanes and Spits I see a very subtle hunting of the RPM which is pretty neat imo.

[White Owl]

Great vid, and what looks like some solid research a few posts back. So it's looking like the most realistic representation of the tach needles in question would be to tone down the crazy fast vibrations to slower bounces, with small variations in normal straight and level flight, and larger variations with taxiing, turbulence, and rapid power changes. Cool.

[Wolf_Rider]

Yes what about it ? In both the CSU equipped Hurricanes and Spits I see a very subtle hunting of the RPM which is pretty neat imo.

yeah... it went from bouncy (pre second Beta patch) with WW open cockpit gauge not bouncing, to not bouncing (post second Beta patch) and now it hunts, along with the WW open cockpit gauge, post Steam release second patch

;)

it also rides now when windmilling the prop - throttle off (though I'm not absolutely sure whether it did before or not)

@ White Owl...

which ever way is accurate to the equipment at the time