bf109 radiator indicator rods are wrong (reversed)

[xnomad]

Hi,

It appears that the functionality of the radiator rods on the wing roots are in fact reversed.

Here is an excerpt from the Messerschmitt manual for the Emil:
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/manuals/bf109e.pdf

Anzeigevorrichtungen fuer Kuehlerklappenverstellung auf Tragflaechen (versenkter Stab: Klappe auf).

Translated:

Devices for displaying the cooler flap adjustment are on the wings ( sunken rod : flap open)

The above doesn't appear to be a typo as the current inscriptions on the rods don't make sense as they line up with "Zu" (closed) when the rods are fully extended, which in the current implementation of the game happens when the radiators are fully open.

Right now when you close the flaps fully the rod disappears if you open them a little it says 'Auf' which is correct but then the fractions following don't make sense and the 'Zu' (closed) part at the bottom doesn't make sense at all as that only appears when you currently have the flaps wide open.

So to recap; the rods should be fully recessed, as in not visible, when the radiators are fully open. The rods should be fully extended when the radiators are closed. At the moment in the game it is completely reversed and appears to be wrong, going by the manual and by the inscriptions on the rods.

The mechanics would also make sense as closing the radiator would push a rod up through the wing if you attached one to the flap.

[VO101_Tom]

I noticed this mistake before with a couple of days. As I see, a topic opened already. Would be great if they would correct it.

[bluecher]

The markings are off, but I believe that the actual operation of the pin is correct, and it seems the manual you posted agrees... Auf = up not open.

Hello,

let me tell you as a native germanspeaker that "auf" (especially in this context) means definitely "open" not "up".
And it ist true what xnomad wrote: the pins are reverted in the game..

Horrido!

[VO101_Tom]

When I run it through Google translate, I get:

do not use the google translator, use just the google :)

Flaps up, pins up:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/bf109/bf109e_walk1.shtml
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA2/1001-1100/walk1019-Bf-109-Large/00.shtm

flaps down, pins down:
http://inscale.org/pub/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=238


(pin aerodynamic drag? :grin: )

The markings are off, but I believe that the actual operation of the pin is correct, and it seems the manual you posted agrees... Auf = up not open.

Ok. What may this mean then? "Zu" (Same sign, than on the inner reel arm closing direction ;) )

[VO101_Tom]

Ya, I've been trying to find pictures of it both open and closed, guess there aren't many pictures of the rads closed (probably for engine safety reasons?), but here's the famous White 14, again, rads open, pin extended...

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/YankeeAirMuseum2006/Highlights/index.html

No, its half open (the half of the pin shows because of this). Look at these pictures. The flap is opened totally, the flap angle is much bigger (The pin does not disappear, you may see on top of him, that it's open (Auf)).
http://www.cybermodeler.net/aircraft/bf109/images/fhc_bf109e_10.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3328/3638055064_51dbcae5c1_o.jpg

[Kongo-Otto]

Hello,

let me tell you as a native germanspeaker that "auf" (especially in this context) means definitely "open" not "up".
And it ist true what xnomad wrote: the pins are reverted in the game..

Horrido!

Absolut richtig!

That's correct, in this context "Auf" means "open" and "Zu" means "Closed" (btw. "up" means "Oben" and "down" means "unten")
The pin was simply adjusted at the flap, so when the cooler flap was down the pin was not very much to see, the cooler flap was up the pin was fully visible.

Here is a Picture from the Bf-109E3 at the German Museum in Munich.
The Flap is up, the pin is visible.
http://www.burgschleinitz.at/museum/dm/Me%20109%20E%203.jpg

Here is another picture from the same airplane, which shows clearly the cowling flap is closed.
http://www.abload.de/img/me_109k768.jpg

[TomcatViP]

Interesting thread.

I hope this wld be addressed by the devs

By the way, yes the pin generate drag but it has to be compared to the weight saved in place of an instrumented indicator with all the pipes, fluids, bolts and brackets etc... Less weight, less drag ... Do it simple and light was Messerschmitt motto ;)

[IvanK]

The E3B in the RAF museum. Radflaps Open Pin up :)

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3625/epin1.jpg

[JG53Frankyboy]

They should perhaps read the manual in that museum :D

[Varrattu]

I noticed this mistake before with a couple of days. As I see, a topic opened already. Would be great if they would correct it.

There is nothing wrong.

In some parts the manuals of the Luftwaffe are a little confusing. Concerning the BF109E-3 radiator ... ...

"AUF" means "EXTEND" - If the radiator flaps are fully extended, the indicator / pins are extended (fully visible).
"ZU" means "RETRACT" - If the radiator flaps are fully retracted, the indicator / pins are also retracted.

@Cheesehawk (05-05-2011 02:32 PM)
Your explanation should convince the last doubter ;)

Happy landings

Varrattu

[xnomad]

There is nothing wrong.

In some parts the manuals of the Luftwaffe are a little confusing. Concerning the BF109E-3 radiator ... ...

"AUF" means "EXTEND" - If the radiator flaps are fully extended, the indicator / pins are extended (fully visible).
"ZU" means "RETRACT" - If the radiator flaps are fully retracted, the indicator / pins are also retracted.

@Cheesehawk (05-05-2011 02:32 PM)
Your explanation should convince the last doubter ;)

Happy landings

Varrattu

I should have mentioned at the start that I'm half German so I'm not using Google translate either when I read the manual.

Yes 'auf' means extended (open) and in the manual it says versenkter Stab (sunken rod) when the Klappe/flap is 'Auf'/open; which is the opposite of what appears in the game.

If 'auf' were meant to mean 'up' then it would be Klappe hoch you would never so 'auf' in that context.

It does seem counter intuitive to do this in terms of reducing drag (although it would be minimal) but I'm going by what the manual says and by the indicators drawn on the rod itself, they must have copied it's appearance from somewhere and presently they make no sense.

[Varrattu]

Yes 'auf' means extended (open) and in the manual it says versenkter Stab (sunken rod) when the Klappe/flap is 'Auf'/open; which is the opposite of what appears in the game.



Hi xnomad,

unfortunately t the author of the manual took the word "AUF" instead of "AUFWÄRTS" or "GESCHLOSSEN". That's the reason why it looks like the opposite of what appears in the game. The function in CloD is okay, the manual is also okay but a little confusing.

Happy landing

Varrattu

[InsaneDruid]

The E3B in the RAF museum. Radflaps Open Pin up :)

...
The angle of which that picture is taken is nearly in line of the upper wing surface, so you can see the rod in is lower end position. The rods never sunk so much into the surface, that you would not see it (which makes perfect sense, as a indicator that can't be seen isn't good. ) This can be seen on the other pics showing open flaps, too.

Please all download the manual from the starting post, browse to page 47 and have alook at the picture marked "Abb. 60" (Abb. meaning Abbildung, meaning illustration") there the rod is shown, and you can clearly see that it just was a rod attached to the radiator flap. No gearing/whatsoever that reversed it's movement compared to the movement of the flap.

Its also written in the text just above the abb 60:

"Die Anzeigestange (60c) durch die Tragfläche führen und an den beiden Winkeln (60d) der Kühlerklappen (60a) anlenken."
"Push the indicator Rod (60c) through the airfoil and connect it with the brackets (60d) to the cowl flaps (60a)"


Also, "versenkter stab: klappe auf" on page 3 isn't badly chosen words. It says "open water cooler if needed (with crank located to the right of the seat); indicator on top of airfoil (sunken rod: flap open)". No german uses the word "Auf" for the meaning of up if the context is something you can open or close. Especially if "up" isnt "open".

[Varrattu]

Please all download the manual from the starting post, browse to page 47 and have alook at the picture marked "Abb. 60" (Abb. meaning Abbildung, meahing illustration") there the rod is shown and you can clearly see that it just was a rod attached to the radiator flap. No gearing/whatsoever that reversed its movement compared to the movement of the flap.

Its also written in the text just above the abb 60:

"Die Anzeigestange (60c) durch die Tragfläche führen und an den beiden Winkeln (60d) der Kühlerklappen (60a) anlenken."
"Push the indicator Rod (60c) through the airfoil and connect it with the brackets (60d) to the cowl flaps (60a)"


Also, "versenkter stab: klappe auf" on page 3 isn't badly chosen words. It says "open water cooler if needed (with crank located to the right of the seat); indicator on top of airfoil (sunken rod: flap open)". No german uses the word "Auf" for the meaning of up if the context is something you can open or close. Especially if "up" isnt "open".

!!! OKAY, CONVINCED !!!!

bf109 radiator indicator rods are wrong (reversed)

Regards Varrattu

[xnomad]

Thanks for that Druid.
This has brought up another inaccuracy, the rod should never be completely recessed, the tip should be visible.

I have a feeling that this feature is never going to be fixed considering all the bigger problems that need attention. :grin:

[IvanK]

Yes convinced as well.

Strangely the BF110 is modelled correctly. There is no reason to believe that the mechanisation between the 109E and BF110 differ. An excerpt from some BF110 handling notes prepared by the RAF

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4765/bf110radrods.jpg

The equivalent notes on the 109E mention the rods but not specifically the mechanisation.

[Varrattu]

As an aside. The adjustable switch for the BF109E-3 propeller needs also to be revised. After pressing up or down the lever should automatically return to neutral. Look here:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/J%E4ger/Me109E/Instrumentenbeschreibung/Bilder.htm

and

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3281649/Re_How_To_Engine_Starting_Proc.html

Happy landings

Varrattu

[IvanK]

Yep Devs are aware of it.

[VO101_Tom]

As an aside. The adjustable switch for the BF109E-3 propeller needs also to be revised.

I mention it in advance, that what I write, in case let anybody consider it as provocation. The complexity of the game is fascinating one however that it provides significance to details like this already. :)

So one more thing to PropPitch:

Here is one gallery, high resolution photos, first item (Fi 18502-2):
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/schalter/schalter.htm

The lower position of the switch (where it is possible to hang it up) that "glide-mode". This is missing totally currently from the game (feather prop key doesnt work, and currently, non switchable with mouse either, because it works some other way. This would be important when the engine stops.



If we turned away from cooling flap to propeller pitch, I would say something new then. Junghans J-30 clock. I found three minor (?) things at this, which is bad according to me:

http://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/990103944/m/5701098311
http://war-timers.surfino.info/FL_23886_Junghans.html

1. "A timepiece for pilots, it is fitted with the Junghans J30 Bz 30 hour movement with a 15 min. chronograph timer." The clock (in game) counts a 30 second now, not 15 minute.

2. The bezel ring non movable in game, in RL totally, in 360 degrees can be turned. To the measurement of time would be useful well.

3. Look at this picture from first topic, which i linked, if its correct (because of that questionable, because I did not find information somewhere else), the production year of the clock is bad. The v5 type from only 1942 was produced:

http://ihc185.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/4/9/7/4971064992/4971064992_v1_v5lo.jpg

S!

[VO101_Tom]

Hello dev Team. I saw gladly, that the propeller switch you tried to correct it. Is the file not put very far? :rolleyes: Somebody would exchange the increase and decrease directions? The translation did not succeed unfortunately:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumente/katalog/schalter/gross/Fl18502-2.gif

Größer - "greater" RPM!!* Reduce the angle of attack of the propeller (to the rotatory plane**), the wind resistance of a propeller decreases, the rev of an engine accelerates. The Prop pitch gauge move to 12:00.
Drehzahl - "rev/min"
Kleiner - "lesser" RPM: increase the AoA of propeller.
Segelstllg (Segelstellung) - "Glide-standing" increase to maximum AoA of Propeller**, because this causes the smallest wind resistance, if the engine stopped. This now totally wrong (on the switch).


* http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/J%E4ger/Me109E/Instrumentenbeschreibung/Bilder.htm
**What they measure the position angle of the propeller against in the Russian technical literature? Strange, that it was counted turned over in the il-2 already. I wrote the position angle of the propeller compared to the rotatory plane.



ps. Did it not manage to convince it that water radiator flap indicator is bad? Ehh :sad:

[IvanK]

+1

[xnomad]

Guys can we keep this thread on topic please?
The prop pitch thread is here (in the controls threads):

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=22549

Let's please only discuss the radiator indicator rods here.

[VO101_Tom]

ok, u right.

[jojovtx]

(pin aerodynamic drag? :grin: )

Yeah, anything is. Rivets, the skin of the aircraft, antenna, basically anything. So yes, pin=aerodynamic drag.

[VO101_Tom]

Yeah, anything is. Rivets, the skin of the aircraft, antenna, basically anything. So yes, pin=aerodynamic drag.

Wait a minute. Yes yes, it count. :rolleyes: I was flying with a sailplane until a couple of years, i know how important even the polishing is. But we talk about a 1100 horsepower fighter, on which there is an a dozen of, much bigger snag thing. You believe it, that Mr. Messerschmitt dealt with it when he planned the airplane when the little tiny stick is opened when is closed? (Cheesehawk asserted this). I don't think so. They did it because this is the simple solution. Screwed to the lower sheet, it was driven through the hole, and done. (There is a picture in the manual, which InsaneDruid mentioned with a couple of posts before).



Anyway, if this was mentioned already:
Did it not manage to convince the developers that this is bad? It did not change in a new patch. I saw it, the stopwatch yes (Thanks for it), but this older topic. :cool:
edit: Forget it guys, I did not speak nothing. I read it now the patch hotfix list, indicator is fixed. Thank you. :cool:

[xnomad]

yaay it has been fixed in the latest hotfix. :grin:
I can confirm it's working correctly now.