The anti-epilepsy filter and Luthier/UBI statements

[adonys]

This is for all of us to understand better what's this about, and what's the current situations of it. I gave up having to explain it in countless threads across multiple forums.


Guys, you need the facts, first before anything, and the facts at this moment are the following:

- MG (Maddox Games) started to address epilepsy issues in IL2 at UBI's request
- they've put out of the game (previously announced as for good, as in forever) some of them (there's no list of this, just Luthier's statement, but it included the cockpit view propeller's arc) - in both IL2 CoD and BoB
- at the point MG understood there's no time to address them all before release, they've stopped addressing the effects individually and started to put up the full screen filter - in both IL2 CoD and BoB

- after we've found out, and due to rampage on the forums, Luthier said 1C version BoB will accept an optional filter (or even removing it for good) and stop individually addressing effects to meet epilepsy requirements, but the UBI version CoD will have the filter permanent (or at least until all effects will be addressed individually, making the filter obsolete)
- Luthier also said that it might re-add/un-cripple the list of individual effects already modified to meet the epilepsy requirement in the 1C's BoB version before turning to the filter solution (yet, it might not equals for sure)
- after more ranting UBI sais it will make the filter optional

BUT

- making the filter optional doesn't mean they won't further continue to address (read cripple) effects individually in order to meet epilepsy requirements
- and even if they stop further individually addressing the effects, it also doesn't mean they will re-add/un-cripple the already modified effects crippled to meet the epilepsy requirements


We need an official clarification of these two problems from UBI/Luthier in order to consider the CoD at par with BoB

Of course, all of the above assuming UBI is not just lying to us in order to not drop the launch sales. We can only have faith in their word, and check it in time, by comparing the visuals from the two different editions (Cod vs BoB)..

[adonys]

Oh god, nobody seems to really understand.. Ok, let's do it the hard way:

We have this awesome propeller blade arc visible from inside the cockpit, right?

As we've seen in WW2 footage, the propeller view is like a translucid (like in transparent, but not invisible) circle seen all the time while not at very low rpm, with some blurred propeller blades rotating at slower speeds inside/over the translucid arc, sometime even counter-rotating (an optical illusion seen at rpms which would have the propeller move just a little less than full 360 degrees during a single frame, hence the illusion of counter-rotating). Everyone with me until now?!

Now, UBI comes and says: we can't have these blurred propeller blades rotating, or even counter-rotating, inside the propeller's translucid arc, it will cause headache and might trigger epilepsy, remove it.

MG removed them from the game. Removed the blurred slowly rotating/counter-rorating propeller blades for good (like in removing them from the game, and deleting the resources needed to create them), and just kept only the translucid arc.

After 100 x above, they've decided is counterproductive to fix all the individual requests, and added an epilepsy filter.

Do you have the slightest idea what that (post-processing) filter is? it is NOT like a list of effects which are allowed when it is on, and not rendered when it is off. it is NOT a list of effectes rendered like this when it is on, and like that when it is off.

The filter just grabs the image which should go to the screen, and analysis it pixel by pixel with the previously image sent to the screen. if the difference between the luminosity of two pixels is too big, it will tone down it in the new image is preparing to send to the screen.

Do you understand now what "epilepsy filter removal means"? it means only it will stop analyse and modify the rendered image, and send it as it is to the screen.

while being a good thing (as it will put back into the game the extra FPS removed by this filter, and preserve a more contrasting look of the game), it won't put the already crippled effects back in, as the already removed inside cockpit slowly rotating/counter-rotating blurred propeller's blades. That won't put back ANY of the individual already removed/toned down/crippled effects.

Even more, it won't mean UBI might not request to have other/more effects removed/crippled/toned down (in order to limit the worst of them if the epilepsy filter is taken off)..

Do you understand now?

[robtek]

@adonys

In this simulation the real view is simulated!!!
Not the view of a camera!!
So no slow counterrotating props or such stuff!
Except maybe in a track where a camera is simulated.

[Bowtome]

No, I don't but thanks and very bored with 100 threads a day being created.

[T}{OR]

+1

An official statement on this would indeed be helpful.

[adonys]

Yes, a lot of might / might not in your post, and lot of assumptions


You say Ubi asked for individual effects to be taken of, assumption. They tested the game on standard seizure tests; failed, go back to dev.

You assume again that the dev team removed some effects, nothing from Luthier hints to that. He did say that they would have to do that in the future if Ubi didn't change its stance on the whole epilepsy thing.
Since Ubi changed it and said OK, make the removal of the filter an option, put a warning, no need to rework the effects.

Think: why would the filter stay, even as an option, if the effects had to be reworked? That would be a double barrier.

You can actually read Luthier's statements and explanations on this russian forum (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=192). I haven't made up anything from this, they are Luthier's explanations. You are the one making assumptions in here, not me, sorry.

Also, you did not understand that after modifying the effects for a while, they saw can't address them all (as Luthier said, the whole damn game and almost everything from it could potentially cause epilepsy), they've left the already modified/removed ones as they were, and added a filter on the final rendered image, as a quick solution for launch (as UBI said there won't be any UBI launch without all the potential epilepsy causing effects removed from the game).

Luthier also said this filter will be removed once ALL epilepsy causing effects will be modified individually (after weeks/months of painful work). His words, not mine.

[adonys]

Afaik it is you who doesnt understand.

In this simulation the real view is simulated!!!
Not the view of a camera!!
So no slow counterrotating props or such stuff!
Except maybe in a track where a camera is simulated.

The effect is not visible only on camera, I just gave WW2 footage as an example, as most of us saw it in there, and not in real life. But the effect is perfectly observable by looking with your own eyes, and from Luthier's words, it was modeled into the game (and then removed as part of UBI's anti epilepsy requests).

The closest alike effect would be the one caused by the spikes from a car wheels' plastic protectors (I don't know the exact english word for these, I'm sorry, but english is not my native language). At certain rotation speeds, you'll have the optical illusion that the wheel is actually rotating backwards.

You, sir, are wrong!

[Gamekeeper]

Making the filter switchable does not automatically mean that effects already removed will not be added back in. As Luthier has stated there will be more information available as and when patches are released. Let's address problems when they actually occur rather than always assume the worst is inevitable. As Ubisoft have adopted a logical calm approach to the situation I doubt they will be demanding more toning down as the anti epilepsy warnings and switch are in place by default which fulfil their obligations so far as PSE is concerned.

[adonys]

That's exactly what I've did, I haven't assumed anything, but asked for an answer from Luthier/UBI to clarify the matter for us all.

[BigPickle]

You can actually read Luthier's statements and explanations on this russian forum (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=192). I haven't made up anything from this, they are Luthier's explanations. You are the one making assumptions in here, not me, sorry.

Also, you did not understand that after modifying the effects for a while, they saw can't address them all (as Luthier said, the whole damn game and almost everything from it could potentially cause epilepsy), they've left the already modified/removed ones as they were, and added a filter on the final rendered image, as a quick solution for launch (as UBI said there won't be any UBI launch without all the potential epilepsy causing effects removed from the game).

Luthier also said this filter will be removed once ALL epilepsy causing effects will be modified individually (after weeks/months of painful work). His words, not mine.

Mate seriously drop this topic now its getting real old, you have quoted his words,"they will fix/modify each effect" end of dit so just wait.

[T}{OR]

Well said Gamekeeper.

If they indeed spent last 3 months on removing / tuning the effects, with all the optimizations and stuff that will happen over the next weeks/months - hell it might take them 3 times longer to bring back stuff to the way they it was before they started removing the undesired effects.

The only hope we have (scenario in which this will resolve soon), is if they have made a checkpoint / backup before removing epilepsy dangerous effects from the game, and that they can put them in easily. However, I am afraid that this is very unlikely.

"Reverse engineering" and bringing the effects to the desired (proper) look over a longer priod, is something that will probably happen more likely IMO.

These are all speculations on my part. Then again, I reserve the right to be surprised. As this game is continuously surprising us all. :)

[TallBonapart]

Plus,removing the filter will not solve other game problems,like freezes or low FPS.So if you dont have at least i5 and gtx 470 (or ATI and AMD equivalents) dont bother with this software,save your self some nerves.

[JG52Uther]

Plus,removing the filter will not solve other game problems,like freezes or low FPS.So if you dont have at least i5 and gtx 470 (or ATI and AMD equivalents) dont bother with this software,save your self some nerves.

Total rubbish.My specs are in my sig,and I am getting 30 + fps in cockpit in a 6 Vs 6 dogfight,and thats before the patch.

[JG52Krupi]

Total rubbish.My specs are in my sig,and I am getting 30 + fps in cockpit in a 6 Vs 6 dogfight,and thats before the patch.

Hey mate,

Any chance you post some pics/vids would love to see how it looks with your specs?

[cato_larsen]

Total rubbish.My specs are in my sig,and I am getting 30 + fps in cockpit in a 6 Vs 6 dogfight,and thats before the patch.

Indeed. But it will act different for all PC`s.
Thats the downside of PC gaming.
A completely identic rig spec wil most likely in most games have a differ in FPS when gaming, normally not by much but it will most likely show a difference.

I have a E8400 cpu with 6870 card together with 4GB ram on Win7 x86
and it gives me smooth gameplay over water with 8vs9 in dogfights, BUT will stutter over land when the landmass is being rendered, specially when over bigger towns.

[TallBonapart]

Uhu,you just forgot to mention your resolution and quality settings,and that you a flying above the channel.:)

[cato_larsen]

Uhu,you just forgot to mention your resolution and quality settings,and that you a flying above the channel.:)

Not sure if it was noted at me, but yes I forgot, I did say over water and explained something over land.

But settings are 1280x800x32(wich actually looks quite good I am suprised to say)
All others on high with AAx8

[JG52Uther]

Hey mate,

Any chance you post some pics/vids would love to see how it looks with your specs?

Nope, too busy flying... ;)
Actually, I think I will get it running even better with the Euro version,as I will be able to understand the settings better.But really,cockpit visuals wise think RoF but better.
Theres a reason I fly with a German squad and not a Russian one...

[BadAim]

Luthier already cleared all of this up yesterday, it's in a sticky now, but I'll repost his answer here;

"Hello everyone,

Once again I want to point out that a lot of your earlier anger was misplaced. Actually, our colleagues at Ubisoft are extremely interested in making this game a success, they care about our opinion and yours, and everyone we work with there is understanding and cordial and more than willing to listen and change their mind.

Having said that, I'm glad to announce that the debacle has been resolved.

We will be making the filter optional, however turned on by default. And we will be adding a large epilepsy warning to our splash screen. I am almost certain that this update will hit the steam servers on March 30th and thus seamlessly make it onto everyone's machines when the game is installed on the 31st.

The March 30th update will also address some of the issues reported with the Russian version, but we'll provide more details with the patch notes once we know for sure what it'll contain. Obviously, we need to test the heck out of all the changes to make sure we don't introduce any new bugs while fixing the old ones (the team's favorite past time lately as it seems).

So there! Do a happy dance, I know I did."

Back to me: Problem solved, move along now there's nothing to see here :)

[adonys]

wake-up then re-read the first post of this thread, maybe you'll really understand this time.

[Eklund89]

I would like a option in the distant future where you can check the box "show realistic prop visuals (may cause PSE and headache)"
Then if you get a headache or are unconfortable with the props you can just easily turn it off. The more realism the better for me.

But as always. Fix the critical stuff first and then add the goodies.
Smoothe framerates and playability, compability is first priority.

[Richie]

From Luthier yesterday....





Posts: 178
Default Quick epilepsy update
Hello everyone,

Once again I want to point out that a lot of your earlier anger was misplaced. Actually, our colleagues at Ubisoft are extremely interested in making this game a success, they care about our opinion and yours, and everyone we work with there is understanding and cordial and more than willing to listen and change their mind.

Having said that, I'm glad to announce that the debacle has been resolved.

We will be making the filter optional, however turned on by default. And we will be adding a large epilepsy warning to our splash screen. I am almost certain that this update will hit the steam servers on March 30th and thus seamlessly make it onto everyone's machines when the game is installed on the 31st.

The March 30th update will also address some of the issues reported with the Russian version, but we'll provide more details with the patch notes once we know for sure what it'll contain. Obviously, we need to test the heck out of all the changes to make sure we don't introduce any new bugs while fixing the old ones (the team's favorite past time lately as it seems).

So there! Do a happy dance, I know I did.

[Space Communist]

The Filter acts on the entire video output not individual effects, that's part of why it causes such a framerate hit. It is ridiculous to imagine that they would make the filter optional and then start disabling effects, since that would completely defeat the purpose of making the filter optional in the first place.

It would be a much more efficient use of their time to simply leave the filter as is, and assume everyone without epilepsy will simply disable it(once it is optional.) They can then completely forget about epilepsy after that and concentrate on other game improvements. If Ubi has agreed that this is sufficient to avoid litigation then I am certain this will be the last we hear of it.

Of course I realize that this is great for everybody except the few players who actually have epilepsy, but well at least they can still play the game. I am sure there will be many further optimizations that make better even with the filter on.

Let me repeat/tldr: The idea that they would spend time and money making their game less visually impressive in order to solve a problem that has already been solved is patently ridiculous.

[Triggaaar]

The Filter acts on the entire video output not individual effects, that's part of why it causes such a framerate hit. It is ridiculous to imagine that they would make the filter optional and then start disabling effects, since that would completely defeat the purpose of making the filter optional in the first place.Not really, it depends what they agreed with Ubisoft. If they agreed that they would continue fixing the issue, but have a filter in the mean time that could be switched off (because it was harming sales), it is possible that Ubisoft would agree on the condition that the issue would be fixed in x months. Hopefully that's not the case, and you are correct.

It would be a much more efficient use of their time to simply leave the filter as is, and assume everyone without epilepsy will simply disable it(once it is optional.) They can then completely forget about epilepsy after that and concentrate on other game improvements. If Ubi has agreed that this is sufficient to avoid litigation then I am certain this will be the last we hear of it.Indeed, hopefully Ubisoft is happy with that solution, and that's the end of the matter.

[sorak]

Wow.. you just confused me even more.

This is for all of us to understand better what's this about, and what's the current situations of it. I gave up having to explain it in countless threads across multiple forums.


Guys, you need the facts, first before anything, and the facts at this moment are the following:

- MG (Maddox Games) started to address epilepsy issues in IL2 at UBI's request
- they've put out of the game (previously announced as for good, as in forever) some of them (there's no list of this, just Luthier's statement, but it included the cockpit view propeller's arc) - in both IL2 CoD and BoB
- at the point MG understood there's no time to address them all before release, they've stopped addressing the effects individually and started to put up the full screen filter - in both IL2 CoD and BoB

- after we've found out, and due to rampage on the forums, Luthier said 1C version BoB will accept an optional filter (or even removing it for good) and stop individually addressing effects to meet epilepsy requirements, but the UBI version CoD will have the filter permanent (or at least until all effects will be addressed individually, making the filter obsolete)
- Luthier also said that it might re-add/un-cripple the list of individual effects already modified to meet the epilepsy requirement in the 1C's BoB version before turning to the filter solution (yet, it might not equals for sure)
- after more ranting UBI sais it will make the filter optional

BUT

- making the filter optional doesn't mean they won't further continue to address (read cripple) effects individually in order to meet epilepsy requirements
- and even if they stop further individually addressing the effects, it also doesn't mean they will re-add/un-cripple the already modified effects crippled to meet the epilepsy requirements


We need an official clarification of these two problems from UBI/Luthier in order to consider the CoD at par with BoB

Of course, all of the above assuming UBI is not just lying to us in order to not drop the launch sales. We can only have faith in their word, and check it in time, by comparing the visuals from the two different editions (Cod vs BoB)..

[sorak]

Oh god, nobody seems to really understand.. Ok, let's do it the hard way:

We have this awesome propeller blade arc visible from inside the cockpit, right?

As we've seen in WW2 footage, the propeller view is like a translucid (like in transparent, but not invisible) circle seen all the time while not at very low rpm, with some blurred propeller blades rotating at slower speeds inside/over the translucid arc, sometime even counter-rotating (an optical illusion seen at rpms which would have the propeller move just a little less than full 360 degrees during a single frame, hence the illusion of counter-rotating). Everyone with me until now?!

Now, UBI comes and says: we can't have these blurred propeller blades rotating, or even counter-rotating, inside the propeller's translucid arc, it will cause headache and might trigger epilepsy, remove it.

MG removed them from the game. Removed the blurred slowly rotating/counter-rorating propeller blades for good (like in removing them from the game, and deleting the resources needed to create them), and just kept only the translucid arc.

After 100 x above, they've decided is counterproductive to fix all the individual requests, and added an epilepsy filter.

Do you have the slightest idea what that (post-processing) filter is? it is NOT like a list of effects which are allowed when it is on, and not rendered when it is off. it is NOT a list of effectes rendered like this when it is on, and like that when it is off.

The filter just grabs the image which should go to the screen, and analysis it pixel by pixel with the previously image sent to the screen. if the difference between the luminosity of two pixels is too big, it will tone down it in the new image is preparing to send to the screen.

Do you understand now what "epilepsy filter removal means"? it means only it will stop analyse and modify the rendered image, and send it as it is to the screen.

while being a good thing (as it will put back into the game the extra FPS removed by this filter, and preserve a more contrasting look of the game), it won't put the already crippled effects back in, as the already removed inside cockpit slowly rotating/counter-rotating blurred propeller's blades. That won't put back ANY of the individual already removed/toned down/crippled effects.

Even more, it won't mean UBI might not request to have other/more effects removed/crippled/toned down (in order to limit the worst of them if the epilepsy filter is taken off)..

Do you understand now?


NO

[Blackdog_kt]

The Filter acts on the entire video output not individual effects, that's part of why it causes such a framerate hit. It is ridiculous to imagine that they would make the filter optional and then start disabling effects, since that would completely defeat the purpose of making the filter optional in the first place.

It would be a much more efficient use of their time to simply leave the filter as is, and assume everyone without epilepsy will simply disable it(once it is optional.) They can then completely forget about epilepsy after that and concentrate on other game improvements. If Ubi has agreed that this is sufficient to avoid litigation then I am certain this will be the last we hear of it.

Of course I realize that this is great for everybody except the few players who actually have epilepsy, but well at least they can still play the game. I am sure there will be many further optimizations that make better even with the filter on.

Let me repeat/tldr: The idea that they would spend time and money making their game less visually impressive in order to solve a problem that has already been solved is patently ridiculous.

That's my understanding as well, it doesn't make sense to remove effects when the filter is already in place.

What the OP said is indeed true, but it's what Luthier said in the beginning before the situation was resolved. Since the requirements have changed, it's only reasonable to assume that they will do it in the way that costs them the least amount of money and time: effects for everyone, filter on or off depending on user choice and a warning screen just to avoid lawsuits.

[sod16]

@adonys,

You are overthinking this situation. Who in there right mind would spend time easing in patches one by one to make there game uglier when there is already a PRE SET FILTER in the game with a SPLASH warning screen.

Those "100" or so graphically reduced objects can EASILY be reverted by going back too the old save files. Infact, they may have reverted them once they decided to put the filter in.

Honestly, they are NOT going to work on making the game epi friendly when they already have a pre set filter. Might I remind you, it is not law nor do any other companies do it.

Also, who cares about it anyway? Its gone and we will get our effects back in weeks to come if they really are gone.

[kalimba]

if I may try an explanation of my own....
In a previous message,when he decided to tell us about the filter issues, Luthier said that they indeed began changing some effects in the code trying to make them less prone to induce epileptic seizures.
If I remember correctly, he mentioned the prop effects has being changed forever and few others also....It was a bigger job than they taught and then decided that they would put a overall filter...What we could conclude is even if we turn the filter off, some initial and original effects are gone and COD is not 100 per cent what we were supposed to get...Is it true for the Russian version also ?
Luthier only could tell us at this point..

salute!

[lbuchele]

If the have a Epilepsy Warning in the splash screen there is no need to dumb down anything I guess.
Because we play by our own risk.I'm sure that Ubi lawyers already assure them about that, that´s the reason they decided to remove this Epi filter.

[ATAG_Doc]

If Ubi has agreed that this is sufficient to avoid litigation ....[/B]

You can never avoid it. It's overly paranoia to think this way.

There are no prerequisites one needs to meet before instituting legal action. It can be anything. Everyone has a right to have their grievance heard in court.

Anything can be heard in a court by a judge.

However, instituting a purchase agreement that states one must use binding arbitration and at their own expense at whatever venue of MG's choosing as a condition of the purchase and use of their software may help a lot. :)

[adonys]

There you go, Cliffs of Dover Technical FAQ from Luthier:

8. Q: I cannot see propellers on any planes!

A: Rotating propellers were causing the game to fail epilepsy tests, and so drastic changes were made to the propellers in addition to the Anti-Epilepsy filter. If we can be perfectly frank, there is a chance that this will never change back.

[Wolf_Rider]

its all a bit academic really, considering that games released up 'til this one... haven't had (need) a filter/ don't carry a warning/ have the spinning prop/ were released by UBI and would technically still draw the litigation crowd (if that is what UBI is really worried about).

< shakes fist @ tv Pokemon animators >

[Sutts]

There you go, Cliffs of Dover Technical FAQ from Luthier:


As a developer myself, this really makes no sense to me from a technical perspective. Whenever changes are made to code (especially drastic ones), the current code is always backed up. A professional developer would never obliterate code without having a means of reinstating it, especially if that code took an age to develop in the first place.

The propellor visuals routine should be quite self-contained and I can't see why it can't be plugged straight back in. I think the real reason for leaving it out permanently is a promise made to Ubi (the prop is in front of your eyes almost constantly and if anything is going to trigger an attack it's that).

Just my 2c

[adonys]

Not if they removed the used resources, for example. Or if the code they had to comment was spread in multiple places across the program. Or if they actually had to modify it a lot, not just comment it.

Lots of IF's, but the result is the same, they've disabled the filter, but only to gain some FPS, as actually lots of effects were already removed/modified and it seems they'll remain like that :(

[Sutts]

Not if they removed the used resources, for example. Or if the code they had to comment was spread in multiple places across the program. Or if they actually had to modify it a lot, not just comment it.

Lots of IF's, but the result is the same, they've disabled the filter, but only to gain some FPS, as actually lots of effects were already removed/modified and it seems they'll remain like that :(

They just wouldn't do that adonys. If you'd spent possibly weeks coding up beautiful realistic prop effects, there's no way you'd cut the code and not keep a backup of all your hard work. Software houses typically keep backups going back months from every stage of development. Anything can be rolled back at any stage.

Also, an effect like the prop motion would certainly be located in a common routine. It's possible that it's called from many places but there's no way you'd have duplicate code all over the place. Just wouldn't happen....unless you don't know how to code that is....and there's no suggestion of that in the case of 1C.

[Timeerror]

Hi,

I am a lawyer and - this has to be said - Ubi Soft should change their lawyers. The anti-epilepsy filter could not avoid lititgation. Everybody in the world could sue Ubisoft - or any other company - and could argue that a game makes him sick, ill etc. (with or without this stupid anti-epilepsy filter).


If UbiSoft would have asked me as a lawyer, whether it they should add this anti-epilepsy filter, as a lawyer I would say: Yes, because in court proceedings you could argue, that you have done everything to avoid everything.


But UbiSoft is a company, that sells products and they should not act like a
scaredy cat. They should act as business men. Writing a warning on the box or in the intro is also sufficent and you would also have enogh arguments in court hearings.

In my opinon, the decions of Ubi Soft concerning Silent Hunter were bad (stopping support etc), but now the decisons are even worst.

Avoiding litigation is ok, but you could not manipulate a whoule game, because a lawyer says "We would recommend implementing such a filter" is nonsene. This is case, a managing director has to say: "o.k noticed, but in my opinion a warning on the box etc is fine, thank you for your legal opinion".